Welsh or English? Lucy Owen's Big School Dilemma

There's a huge decision I have to make and it's stressing me out.

Do I send my son to Welsh or English secondary school?

It's a dilemma that's dividing his dad Rhod and I like never before.

I'd probably be pretty devastated if he did go to an English school.

Why do you want to change it?

SHE SIGHS

'It'll set me on a journey into tricky territory...'

Would you rather that your daughter was not studying any Welsh at all?

Yes, I'd prefer to have the choice.

I never like being forced to do things.

'..unexpected challenges...'

-How was my maths?

-A bit rusty.

'..and test all I think I know.'

We are in a global world.

Today, bilingualism is the norm.

Tomorrow, multilinguism is the norm.

'In a house with a Welsh-speaking dad and a English-speaking mum,

'which way do we go?'

We're further apart on it than I think either of us ever anticipated.

Gab, will you have something easy for brekkie today?

-A nice cereal.

-A fry-up.

SHE SIGHS

When I was growing up, I went to an English-language primary school.

I went to an English-language secondary school

Nobody that I knew spoke Welsh.

It just wasn't on the radar for me at all. It just wasn't part of my life.

Some little bits of fruit, Gab. Will you eat your strawberries, as well?

OK.

Always went to Welsh school.

I went to Welsh pre-school, Welsh junior school

and then on to Welsh comprehensive.

-Be' ti'n chwarae?

-Ni jyst yn gwneud ymarfer corff.

He's my boy. He's Welsh.

I'm Welsh.

My grandparents are Welsh. We all speak Welsh.

That's what we've done.

I'd probably be pretty devastated if he did go to an English school.

It's my gut feeling that I want him

to continue his education in the language that I had it.

It's where I feel I may be able to give more support to my son.

So, for you, having Gabs been now to Welsh junior school and really

happy, really enjoyed there, you know, he's doing his best...

-Hmm.

-..are you not happy with the way he's done so far?

Oh, my gosh, no, no. My gosh, no, I'm so delighted...

So why do you want to change it?

SHE SIGHS

Well, not change it, but questioning changing it.

Well, part of it is, I suppose I'm worried

that I'm not going to be able to feel part of it and help him.

'And that's the thing.

'Could choosing Welsh school leave me isolated in my own family?

'Rhod's heart is set, but I'm just so unsure.

'My head is racing with questions.

'How am I going to help with homework?

'I really don't want him to lose his Welsh,

'but is his English going to suffer?

'What if it makes university harder?

'And perhaps the thing that's worrying me most -

'I just don't want to be left out.

'Gabs is thriving at Welsh primary.

'He's only seven, but this is a big decision.

'We need time to get it right.'

Right, let's go, let's go.

'What I need are answers, starting with one of my big fears - homework.'

Can you read that out to me?

-In Welsh?

-In Welsh. That's it. Put it on the table.

"Adiwch undeg-un at y rhifau hyn...

"Y rhifau yn y rhes uchaf..."

So I'm not entirely sure what that means,

so can you explain to me what we have to do there?

-I do not understand any word of that.

-Yes, you do!

Don't you try and get out of your homework like that, mister.

No, I don't understand what to do.

So, right...

'The school often sends home an English translation,

'but it can still be difficult.'

What does that mean?

It was a bit tricky at times because he didn't quite understand

the Welsh question and what was being asked of him.

It's just one other thing to think about.

Not just understanding the homework,

it's actually understanding the language of the homework.

For me, it adds an extra layer to it.

When the homework gets a little bit more complicated,

I can see how we may struggle.

Right now I'm just guessing at what it will be like when Gabs is older.

I need to experience for myself what a Welsh secondary school is like,

so I've come to Ysgol Gyfun Rhydywaun near Hirwain to do just that.

Reit, pwy sy' eisiau ateb cwestiwn dau?

Faint?

Tri! So dyna beth wnaeth pawb mwy neu lai cael trafferth yn ystod y prawf.

Dyna fe fan hyn.

Oh, it is so interesting for me

to have the experience of being in a Welsh-speaking classroom.

I've never ever had that before.

I actually understood some of the Welsh terms as well -

lluosi, rhannu, tynnu -

just through doing homework with Gabs in primary.

I think I'd struggle with the maths, English or Welsh,

that's me and maths.

But if Gabriel came home with this, I can see how I may get frustrated

trying to help him if I couldn't immediately understand the question.

97% of pupils here have parents who don't speak Welsh.

After hearing concerns that some were struggling to understand homework,

the school developed a bilingual app.

I'm in Aberdare to find out more

and have a go at helping 14-year-old Dafydd with his maths homework.

Neither mum Michelle nor his dad speak Welsh.

It would really help me to see how it all works.

Basically, all the homework we do in the term in Year 9

is on here and then I can show it to my parents

in an English and Welsh version.

So if you do have a problem with your homework, what do you do?

Do you go straight to Mum or do you go straight to the app?

I try and work it out myself first and then I go to the app

and then if I can't find anything in the app, I go to Mam.

Would it help you if they did speak Welsh with your homework?

I think it would help me a little bit

but I'm fine with them not speaking Welsh.

-OK, that's really good. Shall we have an actual crack at this?

-Yeah.

-Lluosi.

-Lluosi.

It's a lot to do in your head, isn't it?

-All that maths and you end up with a zero.

-I know!

So that was good, wasn't it?

Do you often find that you need Mum's help?

No, not really, cos the teachers explain it well enough

in the lessons that I understand it.

Excellent. You're good with the maths.

-How was my maths?

-Bit rusty.

Oh, I can't believe you said that!

You're absolutely right.

Have you ever had problems

when you're trying to help him with his homework,

cos I struggle even now at primary level with Gabriel sometimes?

I mean, obviously the fact that we don't speak Welsh does cause

a little bit of a language problem but it's quite normal to us

that we go through the process of,

if I don't understand anything or if Dad doesn't understand anything,

then we get Dafydd to translate for us

and he's more than able to do that.

I suppose though there is an element of, even if

he was educated through the medium of English, there may be subjects

he'd come home with we wouldn't understand necessarily then.

Do you ever feel slightly removed from his education

and therefore his life because of the language?

No, not at all. The school are quite immersive with parents.

They like parents to participate in a lot of the activities

and I had a preconceived notion that,

because I wasn't Welsh speaking, I may feel like I was a little bit

of an outsider, but it's just not that way at all.

DIALLING TONE

Hello.

'Hi.'

Hello, how you doing?

'Good. You all right?'

Yeah, really good actually.

Just been talking to a family.

Neither of the parents speak Welsh,

but they sent their kids to a Welsh medium secondary.

They haven't struggled at all.

In fact, they didn't even question the decision

whether to send them to Welsh.

It was just an absolute for them.

It's not to say that, for me, those concerns aren't still there.

You know, I think I worry a little bit more about it than they have.

'Maybe you worry about things

'you don't necessarily need to worry about.'

Maybe I am, Rhodri, maybe I am.

I'm still not convinced, though.

My instinct says English medium is the most logical choice.

I've come to see Cardiff mum, Judith,

who's done exactly what makes sense to me.

She switched from Welsh primary to English secondary for her

eldest daughter Isabelle and will do the same for her youngest.

I want to know if it's worked out for them.

Have a good day!

Did you find the decision hard to make?

It was quite an easy decision

because you're just looking to ease the path, aren't you,

of your child's journey through the education system?

It's not that we felt she couldn't achieve

if she went to a Welsh medium school, far from it.

It's purely to maximise her chances

of reaching whatever potential she has.

If she has it all in English,

we're much more able to support that at home.

There's not that extra stage of potentially translating it.

There's not any confusion with whether or not we can help her.

We just know we can. We are completely confident that we can.

Do you worry, though, that the girls may lose their Welsh?

I don't worry about it at all.

I think it's always a skill she'll have.

Certainly in terms of conversational Welsh, she will always have that

and should she wish to pick it up again in the future,

the skill will be there.

Did she want to go to English language secondary?

I know if I ask Gabs right now, he'll be like,

"No, I want to go to Welsh language secondary" mainly cos most of

his mates, I think, in his year will be going to Welsh language secondary.

So did she have a problem with it?

She would rather have gone with her friends to Welsh medium

but she still sees them all outside of school

and she's coped really well with that.

For us, it's really just trusting the gut instinct

that we think that's an easier path for her

and the best decision we can make for both of the girls.

Oh, Judith is very convincing, isn't she?

Um...it was a relief actually to talk to somebody who's got

the same concerns as me, and, at the end of the day,

she said she went with her gut feeling.

And, as an English speaker,

I guess your gut feeling is going to be English medium secondary.

It's my gut feeling, but then Rhod, of course, is a Welsh speaker.

His gut feeling is to go for Welsh.

I don't know. I just don't know.

I think what could really help is to see for myself

just how well Isabelle is settling in at her school,

so I'm going to catch up with her at her history class.

Are you happy that you're in English language secondary?

Um, sometimes I miss having my primary school friends,

but, at the same time, I've made new friends.

Does it ever worry you that you might lose the Welsh that you've learned

if you're not using it now?

My grandad speaks Welsh as well,

so I don't think I would lose the Welsh.

It still feels that it's very much a Welsh classroom,

even though we're using the medium of English

because of the way the Welsh language is peppered through the lesson.

Welsh on the blackboard.

Maybe this could be the best of both worlds?

Only three of the 200 pupils in Isabelle's year

came from Welsh medium primary to this English secondary.

I'm hoping Radyr Comprehensive head Andrew Williams can shed light

on why some parents switch.

Can you understand why some parents decide to ditch

-Welsh language education after primary and go to English?

-I can.

I think there's a fear amongst some parents that if they're

in the Welsh medium school that their English language will suffer.

There's an argument for that, there's an argument against it.

I see it a lot more at A-Level, because I think sometimes

there's a parental perception there

that going on to university, it's all delivered

through the medium of English, so they prepare them

by doing their A-Levels in English and that's an interesting theory.

That has struck a chord with me.

Why would you make your child's future education more difficult?

I'm torn.

Speaking Welsh is not just having two languages.

It opens another world and culture for Gabs.

I love that he has that,

that he can sing hymns in chapel and go to Sunday school with his Dad.

Beth am frecwast ar y traeth? Mae hwnna'n swnio'n neis.

It's a world that's not my world, and that's OK,

but not when it comes to his education.

I'm so busy with work, I already struggle giving Gabs

enough of my time.

His education is such a big part of his life,

it's important for me to be involved.

And if I can't, it's just another area where I'm not being able to be

the mum that I want to be, really.

The obvious solution is something I have tried.

People are absolutely right if they are shouting at the telly right now

and saying, "Just learn Welsh. That's the easy way forward."

It should be, but I have really struggled learning.

I've had a couple of goes, tried different courses, different methods.

I know I should probably make it a priority,

but I've just struggled with it

and it's not an easy language to learn, especially as you get older.

Right, Gabs, what are we going to build?

A house.

'Whatever Rhod or I want, it's what's best for Gabs that's important,

'so I want to find out how being bilingual will affect his life.'

I'm quite enjoying this.

I'm visiting the Khan family - Aruj, Alina, Meriam and Uzman -

who speak four languages.

SHE SPEAKS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE

-Yeah, that's what he said.

-Oh, OK.

-I thought you said you were Dad?

-He said, "You're with Dad."

Hi. I hope you don't mind me joining you.

Oh, my goodness, it was absolutely amazing to hear you all

switching between languages there.

-How many do you speak?

-I think it's four in total fluently.

Is it? What languages are they?

-There's Urdu, Punjabi, English and Welsh.

-My goodness.

And what's it like having four languages?

It seems like you switch between them all the time, do you?

I think it really depends on who we're talking to.

If we're talking amongst each other, as sisters,

-we'd usually speak English cos that seems the most informal to us.

-Yeah.

Easy-going. But it is quite easy.

Seeing as we've been brought up speaking three languages at least,

it's very easy to switch.

-It's so natural.

-Is it? You don't even have to think about it?

-No.

Well, I'm absolutely in awe of you, having struggled learning Welsh.

I'm absolutely in awe of you. It's amazing.

'It's just second nature to the Khan family,

'but I'd love to know the science behind it all

'so I'm meeting cognitive neuroscientist

'Professor Guillaume Thierry from Bangor University.'

-Guillaume, hello.

-Hi.

-Lovely to meet you.

-Nice to meet you.

-Thank you so much...

-You're welcome.

..for coming all this way to come and have a chat.

Can you be equally strong in two languages

or is one language going to suffer?

There have been some studies looking at the level of achievement

of bilinguals in two languages

and it is true that there is a tendency of the vocabulary,

for the mastery of grammar to suffer a small delay in the development.

This being said, there's this myth if you want,

of the human brain, I'd like to kill here.

We think that the brain is a limited space.

We keep thinking that we can only store so much information

and once the bucket is full, that's it.

It's exactly the opposite.

The human brain is an almost limitless space.

It's a networking system that learns more as it learns more.

-Wyt ti 'di gorffen?

-Ti angen gorffen y pys i gyd.

What about for Gabriel, when he comes home and he has homework in Welsh...

-Hmm.

-..and he has to translate it for me if I'm going to help him?

-Yes.

-Is that going to be a struggle for him?

I can perfectly understand your worry, right.

He's going to have homework in Welsh

and he'll have to explain to you what's on the page in English.

Now, what's just happened is a form of trans-languaging where

he's read a piece of information and he has no choice

but capturing the entire meaning of it,

so in fact, the change of language now becomes an advantage clearly,

there's no question about this, because you have to access

the meaning of what you're reading to be able to explain it to others.

You're becoming a mini teacher as a child. The best way to learn.

Absolutely, undeniably the best way to learn.

Now, it is an effort but that effort is actually useful for learning.

So has your research thrown up any disadvantages to bilingualism?

Any problems that the brain may encounter?

You're still looking for that, right? You really want to know...

-I need reassurance.

-..if there's anything wrong with bilingualism.

I don't blame you. I understand.

It's a question that a lot of people are looking for.

Some wonder if the origin of this concern

or this search for a disadvantage or an impairment doesn't

come from some kind of, not frustration or jealousy,

some kind of a bit of a complex from monolinguals that, actually,

they don't have access to this other resource

and they would like to have a good reason to say, "We don't need it."

Actually, I'm sorry to say, in my research in any case,

and my reading of literature, I haven't found anything convincing.

So, you see the future is bilingualism?

The future is multilingualism for the simple reason that

we're in a global world. Today, bilingualism is the norm.

Tomorrow, multilingualism is the norm.

Everybody is going to speak several languages.

Oh, my goodness, so much to think about.

It's actually turned one of my concerns completely on its head.

I've been worried that I wouldn't be able to help Gabriel

if he went to Welsh speaking education.

Actually, by me not speaking Welsh, I'd be a benefit to him because

he'd have to translate his homework and that would help him learn.

One of my concerns completely blown out of the sky, so that's...

Gosh, I'm shaking a little bit because it means such a lot to know,

if that was the route we went down, I would be able to help him.

So that means a lot.

Bilingualism clearly has huge advantages,

but does one of those languages have to be Welsh?

Steve and Adrienne from Caerleon don't think so.

Lottie's dad works for an international software company,

dealing with colleagues and clients from around the world.

So do you think that, partly

because Welsh really isn't going to be helping you in your job at all,

do you think that's partly why

-you don't see it may be important to Lottie?

-Yes, it is.

Outside of Wales, it really isn't mentioned at all.

Whether you've got Welsh isn't a criteria.

Personally, for us and our family,

we'd rather them do the modern languages

and feel that that would open up more opportunities

for their future careers.

Although, what if Lottie stays in Wales,

what if she maybe goes into the public sector or media,

where Welsh could be an asset for her?

How do you feel about that? What if she doesn't travel the world?

I understand you may work internationally,

but what if she doesn't?

-Yeah.

-Then it will close some doors to her, definitely.

And how would you feel about that, cos of the choices you've made?

We're making choices all the time which close doors to her

by not doing German, not doing Spanish, not doing Japanese.

That closes some doors to her, so we are closing doors all the time,

but we think we're opening bigger doors.

Can you see how it may be important to give Lottie

the language for cultural reasons, as a Welsh girl?

No, not particularly. I can't see that's particularly important.

For me, I want to try

and equip Gabriel with as many tools as possible to help him

in whatever direction that he goes, and, for me,

giving him Welsh is one of those tools that I give him.

Does that...register at all?

At an early age, that's fine,

but, as he gets older and you start to make choices

and you've got a choice of which GCSEs can he take,

when we had a look at the list, we just didn't think

Welsh was as valuable as some of the other tools we'd like to give to my daughter.

Would you rather that your daughter was not studying any Welsh at all?

Yes. Well, I'd prefer to have the choice.

I never like being forced to do things,

so I'd much prefer she had the choice of what to do.

'Steve's views are very clear,

'but I'd love to know what Lottie has to say.'

-Hi, Lottie. Am I interrupting your homework?

-No, it's fine.

So is it important to you to speak Welsh?

Not particularly because in Caerleon it's quite unusual to have

a fluent Welsh speaker, especially at my age.

There's hardly any children who know Welsh fluently,

and it's never been a part of my life, really.

I've never been restricted by not speaking it.

So would you rather you didn't have to learn Welsh at all?

To be honest, I would,

because I think it should still be an option because,

for some children, it will be part of their future,

but personally I'd prefer to do French and German

because I'd quite like to move abroad when I'm older.

Do you ever think, though,

"I'm a good Welsh girl. I was born in Wales

"and I'd like to be able to speak the language of the country?"

No, I'm patriotic.

I love Wales,

but I don't really see Welsh is that key to being a Welsh person.

SHE EXHALES

I actually found that quite hard

to hear the language being valued so little,

whether in the workplace or even culturally.

However, I can appreciate that they want to give Lottie

a really broad outlook on the world and want to give her

as many opportunities to go as far afield as possible.

I also want that for Gabriel,

but does that have to be at the expense of the Welsh language?

If you're talking about ambition,

it doesn't get much higher than this place -

Queens' College Cambridge.

I'm here to meet a student whose education up to age 18

was entirely in Welsh.

He's a qualified doctor now studying for a Masters in medical science.

He also happens to be a world class rugby international - Jamie Roberts.

-Shw mai. How are you?

-Hi, how are you?

-You all right?

Lovely here, isn't it? Thank you so much.

What was it like when you first went to university,

suddenly having to make that switch to English. Was that really hard?

I'd spoken English at home, so I was used to conversing in English,

but ultimately, in science I think the concepts are the same

regardless of the language.

So you take reproduction or you take chemistry, anything in science,

the concept is the same whether it's in English, Welsh, Spanish, German,

whatever, so it was just a case of learning a whole new host of words,

because there is quite a bit of carry-over from A-Level science

in your first couple of years in medicine.

Wasn't that an added challenge, though,

that you could probably have done without

when you're starting a degree course

and you've got an added linguistic challenge?

Again, we go back to the point,

obviously it would have been easier in English,

but that was the lay of the land for me

and you didn't have any other choice than to adapt

and learn a whole new host of words.

As difficult as it sounds, I think

it was easier than you think it would be.

It's one of my concerns for Gabs that,

maybe by him going through Welsh language education,

it could just make life harder and, as a parent,

you just want to make everything as easy as you possibly can for them.

Yeah, well, I think my parents took the view that...

and they've always been of the view that life shouldn't be easy.

Why worry about making it difficult?

You should be maybe more excited about making it challenging

and rewarding and picturing the end product,

you'll hopefully have a lad who's bilingual,

is fluent in both English and Welsh,

and will be very proud to be Welsh, proud to speak the language,

and, yeah, happy days.

So, if you had your time all over again,

would you choose Welsh secondary?

Looking back over what it's given me, opportunities it's given me,

happiness it's given me,

albeit in challenging circumstances with my parents speaking English,

I'd definitely have my time again in Welsh secondary education.

One day, when I do have children, touch wood,

I'll be sending them to Welsh schools, no doubt about that.

'He's certainly an advocate for Welsh education

'but it's his approach to life that's really got me thinking.'

He said that I don't need to make life easier for my son.

That is my instinct. That is what I want to do as a parent.

I want to make life as easy as possible for him,

but maybe a child does need a few challenges.

Maybe it's not a bad thing. Jamie doesn't think it is.

Gosh, look what he's achieved.

Obviously he is super bright. He's in Cambridge.

What if Gabs isn't that academic and may struggle a little bit more

with that switch from Welsh to English?

That is something I think I will still think about.

I've heard both sides of the story.

For each family, their choice was right for them.

But now I need to know what's right for my family.

It's been so hard trying to come to a decision.

I've been torn this way and that...

..um, but I would go for Welsh medium education

and I never thought I would say that,

but now it feels right for our family...

..because Welsh is so important to Rhod, Gabriel,

and now I've learnt just how important it is to me as well.

I'm just completely thrilled that she's made a decision,

that she's not 50% this, 50% that,

but she knows exactly what she wants for Gabs.

It's just a bonus that what she wants is what I'd like as well.

It is quite annoying that Rhod's going to think

that he's got his own way on this, but it's really not that.

Go on, Gabby!

'I can see myself being part of Gabriel's Welsh medium education

'and not long ago,'

I would never have been able to see myself

playing an important role in that.

-Whoo! Who scored a try?

-Twice.

-Twice?

I feel really happy that I have come to a decision as well,

that it's right for me and for our family, for all of us,

and that's what makes it quite an exciting prospect now.

# Don't know much about history

# Don't know much biology

# Don't know much about a science book

# Don't know much about the French I took

# But I do know that I love you

# And I know that if you love me too

# What a wonderful world this would be. #