Episode 2 Nick and Margaret: Too Many Immigrants?

There are too many people in the country. It needs to stop now.

Immigration has brought many benefits.

As far as I'm concerned, we're only lodgers now.

It's got overcrowded...

in the past five years.

As immigration reaches record levels, public opinion has

never been so divided over Britain's nearly eight million immigrants.

A lot of people come here with no INTENTION of integrating

and I don't think that that's acceptable.

I'm usually the only English white person on the bus.

There's not enough services for the people that are here.

So we've brought people of both sides of the debate together -

British-born and immigrants.

In the first part of our experiment,

they explore the impact of immigration on employment...

Lads come in from Eastern Europe and, um, undercut us

and basically take our jobs.

-They looked at housing...

-So, it's a big house. We are 20 to live here.

..and explored British culture.

It's going to change

and I don't necessarily feel that that's a good thing.

Now, they'll tackle immigration's impact on schooling.

If I had the choice, I wouldn't send my children to a school as diverse as this.

They'll look at the NHS...

Do you have any idea of the cost of this operation?

..issues around religion...

I won't ask you to pray, I don't want you to bow,

-I don't want you to do anything that you're not comfortable with.

-We have differences.

We are different in the way that we pray, we are different.

You know, these are differences.

..and they'll delve deeper into integration.

I have a big issue with people who teach their children

-another language as a first language.

-I disagree with that.

So now Margaret and I have got THE crunch question.

'By the end, will they decide the immigrants are a gain or a drain?'

-'I'm Nick Hewer.'

-'And I'm Margaret Mountford.'

'In our lifetimes, immigration in Britain has changed dramatically,

'and for some, the increase in numbers is causing concern.'

It seems, Margaret, that the papers are crammed full of stories

and editorials about immigration, it's a national talking point.

How it affects jobs, public services, communities.

And there is no doubt that the number of people coming to

this country has increased hugely over the last few years.

It will be interesting to see what these pairings make of the effect

of immigration on public services, things like the NHS and schools.

London's always had more immigration than

the rest of Britain,

and today a third of the capital's population was born outside the UK.

Mother of two Kiran is British-born.

Her parents came from India in the '60s.

She thinks immigration should be reduced.

When I was growing up in Hounslow, it was very different to

what it is at the moment.

There's always been sort of a huge Punjabi

and Indian population around.

But the way it is at the moment now, just too many immigrants!

It essentially is!

Kiran's lived her whole life in Hounslow,

concerned the local schools aren't integrated enough.

She's decided it's time to move.

What I find interesting is why are people not wanting to integrate

so much into British society.

What are they afraid of exactly?

And if they ARE so afraid,

then really is this the place for you to be?

Kiran is moving to a part of London

where only 17% of the population is foreign-born,

compared to 43% in Hounslow.

-How are you? Margaret.

-Hi, Margaret. I'm Kiran. Nice to meet you.

-So...?

-You're moving. What made you decide to do that?

It's a very, very different place to where I grew up.

It's changed ever so much now.

You've got children. Was that one of the reasons you wanted to move?

That's primarily the reason.

The house that we've just moved from, there's

a school right opposite. According to OFSTED, it's good.

I thought, that may be the case, but if we look at the statistics,

there are 67%, I think,

non-English-speaking children that go there.

And I found that the mums there were all just, you know,

talking in their own language in a corner

and they weren't wanting to integrate with me.

But when you moved here as a child, were there mostly

other Indian families, or families of Indian origin living around?

Yeah, there were. But I think the difference is people

that were coming into the area then were here to stay.

There isn't the kind of effort that I saw my parents making

to integrate into society.

My father, when he initially came to this country,

trying so hard to integrate that he cut his hair,

which for a Sikh is a huge... is a huge thing,

and shaved his beard.

You know, we were encouraged to respect British values.

We were encouraged to go out there and to mix,

but at the same time took us to the gurdwara to pray,

and taught us how to read and write and speak Punjabi.

-So, integrate, but never abandon your culture, your language, literature.

-Absolutely.

I think the thing is, you know, when Dad came, right,

he was in the sense unusual

and had to fit in, because that was the safest and the best thing to do.

But somebody now poling in, they're congregating in the same

sort of areas and they're swimming in their own pond.

Why should they want to go and get into a bigger pond

when they're very happy in the small pond?

Kiran will be paired up with Somali immigrant Mohammed Haji who

lives in Southall, West London.

We are glad. We're really grateful, you know, that we have been looked after.

That our children have been taken to school and they are getting free education.

We are happy for that and we are grateful for the British.

Mohammed fled Somalia's civil war 21 years ago

and was given political asylum in France.

He came to the UK in 2004 as an EU migrant to be closer to his wife's family.

We need to keep our culture.

We need to practise our religion.

We need to, at the same time, respect other communities

and we expect them to respect our culture as well.

He lives with his wife and eight children in a five bedroom

privately rented house, paid for by housing benefit and his own savings.

The British community think that we have come here to collect

benefit, that we have come here to become parasites into the community.

It is not that way.

Kiran wants to find out what efforts Mohammed is making

to integrate into Britain.

I'm hoping that there will be a lot of debate,

I'm hoping that this experience will be a real eye-opener

and I'll get to learn a lot about how a different culture lives

and what their experiences are and what brings them here.

-Do you have lots of...? Are you friends with lots of the neighbours around here?

-Yes.

My responsibility is for my community,

which is the Somali community,

which I believe is my bigger family.

The second responsibility is... is to make sure that we

retain our culture. We keep our religion and my children follow.

What we don't like is... what assimilation means,

being taken over and losing our culture and our religion.

We won't accept the bad parts of the British culture, we won't take it.

-So what do you...class as bad?

-For example, in our culture,

alcohol is not part of our culture.

Those who practice are not really welcome.

We have come here, not looking for a country, but looking

for a safe haven for our children while the civil war is going on.

Do you think you would go back there and take the children back one day?

If there is lasting peace in Somalia tomorrow, we will be all going back.

I don't think from my first visit to Mr Haji's house,

that I could say fairly that they have integrated into British society.

They're still very traditional.

I think only time will tell, really, once I've actually seen them

in action, how integrated into society they really are.

Kiran has come to see what Mohammed does in his job as chairman

-of the Somali Elders Organisation.

-Good morning.

As well as helping Somalis, the organisation provides advice

and English language classes to the wider immigrant community.

He volunteers here for 40 hours a week.

Let me introduce you to Sara. Sara is here today.

She has come out of the class in order for me

to assist her in relation to her housing issues.

-HE SPEAKS IN SOMALI

-What's your problem today?

SHE SPEAKS IN SOMALI

There is a leakage, water coming down from the roof.

It is damp everywhere.

That has affected the health of her children as well.

So we need to find her a house, slightly bigger and at least,

you know, of a better condition.

-She's not working?

-She's started to be self-employed.

She makes, cooks samosas and sells them.

Are you entitled to any benefits or...?

She only gets child benefit and child tax credit

in addition to that. No other income from another source.

She has no husband or partner.

She has no cousins, she has no brothers, no sisters.

No, you know, immediate family to turn to for assistance.

-Is she Somalian as well?

-She is a Somali, yes.

-How long has she been here?

-She was here...

THEY CONVERSE IN SOMALI

Two years.

I don't see that the community here is wanting to come here to

better themselves. They are coming here to get what they can.

I don't think that they're interested in what the British

people need or what...

what they can do to help us.

My ancestors were in the wars, fought for Britain, you know?

We've got medals in the family awarded, you know... to us.

And...

Free-for-all, I think, yeah.

Free-for-all is how I would sum it up at the moment, because

I'm a little bit mixed emotions, to be fair.

In Ilford, north-east London, retired couple Ted and Margaret are

also concerned about the number of immigrants to move into their area.

We've been here 40-odd years. It's changed dramatically.

When we first moved here,

the road was predominantly indigenous white people.

I think we're at saturation point. There's not been enough integration.

There's no part for us here.

Ted and Margaret have been paired with Rahat and Naseem from Pakistan,

who live just five minutes away and run a language school.

Last time, Ted and Margaret showed them

how immigration has changed Ilford.

Before, this would have been all English shops.

There was bakers, greengrocers.

It's really hard for us to listen to this conversation

from the natives, who has the first right to live in this country.

Now Ted and Margaret want to find out more about why

Rahat and Naseem came to Britain.

I'm interested to know what life,

what your life would be like if you were back in Pakistan.

What is life like over there?

Really fantastic life indeed,

because I was working in the textile sector.

I had a chef, gardener, cleaner,

all on the company payroll.

What is the advantage to you to come to England, then?

Well, my husband's eyesight.

He has a disease which is not treatable in Pakistan.

And will your husband get the treatment that he requires

-on the National Health here?

-Yes, yes.

-For free?

-You don't have to pay?

-Yeah, we have to pay for the medicine.

We don't have recourse to the public funds,

but NHS services are free for us, yes.

Oh! Will your condition improve?

You have to be on medication till the life.

It doesn't seem right that funds should be used for this particular reason.

I think that we've got other situations

where the money could be better spent, especially if

people haven't put into the system,

I think that's the big grudge that people have,

is that we've paid in and other people are taking out.

Worried about the drain on the NHS,

Ted and Margaret are on their way to meet with Rahat.

I wondered whether there is just a blank cheque,

where once they're allowed into the country to be spent on them,

or is there a restriction of some sort?

For people coming into the country,

it does seem a bit unfair that they become entitled to use

our system when they haven't paid taxes or have paid very little tax.

In Pakistan, how does the medical system work there?

Is it private or is there something akin to our National Health in Pakistan?

There is a national health system,

but, you know, the quality of service

and the quality of treatment is...

I don't know what I should say...

it is absolutely, absolutely rubbish.

I think the treatment should be perhaps contribution-based.

That would appease some of the people in the country, as far

as immigration goes, and work out a contribution-based system

so that maybe a good chunk of your treatment would be paid,

but you may have to pay the balance.

I think that might be an idea which might make some people happier.

-Yes.

-Do you see my idea?

It's OK. I agree with your idea.

It was the feeling of the country in general that, you know,

the feeling is about people coming in, so that was the point.

Yes, we have the facility to have a treatment

if it is within the hospital that is free of charge,

but the one thing is that we are paying taxes.

The actual treatment, the operations,

are carried out by the National Health at no cost,

and I do wonder how much that fee for the operation and the after-care,

the nursing after-care, will cost the National Health?

It's not just the NHS that some feel is under pressure.

Many believe immigration also has an impact on Britain's education system.

We are going to the school where my younger son attends.

Seven of Mohammed's children are still in education.

The youngest, 12-year-old Liban,

is at a secondary school rated good by OFSTED.

This is Liban's class, 80H

and Mr Jobe, who's teaching today.

Name the farmer who made dried fruit which is fair trade.

Kiran is keen to discover how Liban is integrating in a school

where 66% of pupils don't have English as a first language.

We have 51 different languages spoken,

students from all around the world.

I'm particularly interested in how the schools are dealing with

children who are non-English-speaking,

and what impact that then has on the children

who actually are born and raised in this country?

Having children who are just learning English is just one

aspect of difference, isn't it?

What it brings is more that it enriches life,

it makes children have greater tolerance.

But in terms of making it a two-way street here,

the immigrant children also learn a lot by observing

and by watching children who are British-born.

To say a British child means a lot of different things now.

There's a lot of them that you may not perceive immediately for them

to be a typical British child, but they would call themselves British.

For example, to see Liban on the playground, he is not just

talking about traditional Somali culture with the other Somali boys.

There are a lot, he does have Somali friends, but he also has

friends who were born here but whose families are from Afghanistan.

You won't see all the Indian children here,

all the Polish children here, all the Somali children here.

They do mix.

At home, we may look traditional as a family,

and we love to be traditional,

but when children are going to school, we do mix,

but we always try to retain culture and tradition that we have come from.

'Not sure if I learned much,

'but I think that the answers were all very politically correct,'

and I'm not saying they were dishonest,

I'm just saying they were answers I expected.

The children are doing well, they integrate well etc,

but the Britishness that we had growing up in school

perhaps isn't reflected in this school.

The majority seem to be first-generation immigrants,

and so yes, they learn about each other's cultures,

and that's fantastic, but what do they learn about British culture?

What do they learn about what we learn at school? British values.

I wouldn't send my children to a school as diverse as this.

MARGARET: 'We've come to find out

'if immigration does have an impact on our schools.'

Presumably, in some boroughs

and some areas where there is a very high proportion of children

who don't speak English as their first language,

-that has an impact on the children who do speak English?

-Yes.

I mean, I think there's sort of a mixed impact here.

It's very interesting. I think you have to hold two things in balance.

On the one hand,

I think it's a million households in Britain where English is not

spoken as the main language, but school is also where minority

Britons are, particularly in London, doing extremely well.

Why is that?

Many parents of ethnic minority children are very aspirational

for their children, perhaps more so than white working-class parents,

and you see that in the school results in London.

It's one of the reasons, there are several,

but it's one of the reasons why London is outperforming,

hugely outperforming the rest of the country,

so I don't think it would be fair to say the existing population

of Britain is being pulled back in this case,

which is not also to say there are not frictional costs.

We spend about £350 million a year teaching kids to speak English in schools.

-It's a nontrivial cost.

-And that's out of the education budget?

Retired court clerk John thinks immigrants are a drain on Britain.

I think overall, immigration's a bad thing for this country.

Hundreds of thousands of people come into the country,

which in my view is already overpopulated.

John's been paired with Rommel, who lives in Norbury, south London.

He arrived ten years ago from the Philippines, and is now

manager of a home for people with epilepsy and learning difficulties.

I am in my prime now, you know, of, like, you know, working,

and I have contributed to the economy. I am not a burden.

I am a gain to this country.

In the first part of the experiment, John challenged Rommel

over whether he was qualified to even work in the UK.

Did you have precisely the same training that would suit you

to this work in precisely the same way

as somebody in the United Kingdom would've had that training?

One of the reasons why they prefer hiring migrants

to come and work in the UK is

because of the skill set that is already available to these people.

It's really top notch.

Now, John's joining Rommel in an Asian supermarket to do the weekly shop.

I need to get prawns for tonight.

We're going to get pastry rolls.

I think it's very interesting. Lots of different foods.

I haven't got a clue what's in a lot of them

because I can't read a lot of the writing.

When you pick them up, they look completely different, you know,

to things you've ever seen before.

John is joining Rommel and his wife and two sons for a family meal.

This is my eldest. That is Rocco.

Hello, Rocco! Say hello. Ooh!

-We're going to make spring rolls.

-Let's have a go.

-All right, then, yeah. This is for Filipinos, so it is small.

-OK.

Shall I get on my knees?

It's a chance for John to explore

whether Rommel is a gain or a drain on Britain.

I have a big issue with people who have come to this country,

had children here

-and teach their children another language as a first language.

-Yeah.

That to me I find totally unacceptable,

not just from my point of view,

but think about the children. If those children become westernised,

they're in a terrible position, because their first language

won't be English, they may not be able to speak English at all.

They'll have trouble getting work, they'll have trouble

fitting into society, they'll have trouble receiving our services.

If they go to hospital, what's going to happen?

I disagree with that,

because I teach my kids our language in the Philippines,

because we don't speak English in the house,

but after a year, you know, in the school, he was able to blend well.

I think so.

-You can speak two languages, can't you?

-Yeah.

Do you ever find that at school,

you have a problem with the language side of it?

I think not, really. In school, we are learning Spanish as well.

As well? That's clever.

It's useful for you, cos there's a lot of Spanish in the Philippines.

John mentioned that, you know,

children should be taught how to speak English in the house,

and I strongly disagree with him on that, because in my house,

in my house, I will do what I think is best for my children.

Having discovered that Rahat receives free NHS care,

Margaret wants to find out from his eye surgeon in central London

exactly how much his treatment will cost the taxpayer.

Thank you very much. Sorry about the bright light.

It makes your eyes water, unfortunately.

-Please look straight ahead now for me.

-What condition does Rahat have?

He has kerataconus,

and kerataconus is basically a condition of the cornea.

Here's a model of the eye.

The cornea becomes weakened and thin, bulges out at the bottom normally,

and that means you don't get a clear point to focus.

It's a lovely operation to do for people.

-It's a privilege to be able to do it.

-And an expensive operation?

In terms of major heart surgery, other transplants, no,

it's probably not that expensive.

-Are you training people from other countries?

-Yes.

The health service couldn't function without overseas doctors.

One of my bug-bears is that we take all these wonderful doctors

from overseas to work in the National Health Service,

but we don't actually give the country's money to train

medical students over there to replace the doctors we've taken.

So do you have any idea of the cost of this operation

and the follow-up treatment, how much it would cost in total?

It's about £1,500, but in terms of restoring someone's vision,

I think it's cheap at the price, and the country can certainly afford that small amount of money.

I was pleasantly surprised to find out that it's about £1,500,

which I think is remarkably cheap, and as the consultant said,

the advantage to the person in being able to see better, of course, and

enabling them to have a bigger role in society is a boon to the country.

So, as a whole, are Britain's immigrants

an excessive burden on the NHS?

Those using the NHS, do you have any figures about

what the immigrant costs, how much he takes out of the NHS?

Our research at the National Institute showed

that about 10% of NHS spending went on people who were born

abroad, that's quite a lot.

But immigrants on average consumed rather less than British people,

and that's not surprising, because on average, not exclusively,

but on average, immigrants tend to be younger

and healthier than the average native British person,

and of course, most money we spend on the NHS is on old people.

It's not on younger and healthier people.

Do you have any data telling us how much in pound signs

the immigrant costs the NHS compared with the Brit?

Well, we reckon on average, a Brit costs about £2,000 a year.

Immigrants on average cost about £1,600 a year,

so that's about 20% less.

Remember, immigrants may be young when they come here, but they get

old in time and they will cost more money as they get older.

But of course, it's very important to look at the other side of the balance sheet.

Remember, immigrants pay taxes, immigrants on the whole

are more likely to be in work than the British population, so they're

paying their taxes, so overall, the balance tends to be positive.

But 21-year-old Jamie from south London doesn't feel that

immigration's been positive.

They're just letting too many people into this country.

The charity starts at home first before letting other foreign

countries come into this country and take jobs off English people.

He lives at home with his dad, Andy.

They both work in the building trade

and feel it's been overrun with foreign workers.

The Government's let the floodgates open.

There's a lot of immigrants in the construction industry.

In the first part of the experiment,

Jamie met Polish-born carpenter and businessman Mariusz.

This is my brother.

Nice to meet you. I'm Jamie.

After finding out about Mariusz's work and his home...

-This is a one bedroom flat. Is this where you sleep as well?

-Yeah, we sleep on the sofa.

..Jamie has ventured into a Polish supermarket for the first time.

Would you like to try some Polish sausages?

Yeah, I would love to, yeah.

Absolutely lovely.

I think I might have to find a Polish shop myself

and get a bit of this ham, cos it is rather lovely.

I don't think I'd ever say this sort of thing,

but I actually quite like it in here.

-Now Jamie has invited Mariusz to see his world.

-All right, Mariusz.

-Hi.

-Nice to see you again.

-How's it going?

-Not too bad.

Upstairs now, where I sleep

and obviously where I spend most of my time when I'm not

-in the living room.

-Oh, right.

This is my bedroom. It's not too bad. It's a big space.

I mean, obviously this is my father's room, where he sleeps.

The room of the boss.

Yeah, the room of the boss. Exactly that.

Obviously, this is the spare room.

I think he would probably say I'm quite lucky in a way,

because I've got my own bedroom. I only live with my dad.

We've got another bedroom.

Obviously, this is your father's house,

but you live here for free or you pay your father something?

No, I do pay rent, yes. Obviously I pay £70 a week to my father.

There is no point living with your parents all your life.

-Exactly, yeah.

-If you're starting a family with your girlfriend.

That's the plan this year but at the moment,

I'm just trying to save enough money to get out of underneath

my dad's shoes, basically, and let him have a life.

'Jamie still thinks immigration is preventing him

'from finding a home of his own and earning a decent wage.'

He worries about his future and he thinking that immigration,

the people from Eastern Europe and other countries,

coming and taking all the jobs but...

Many, many years in England was the immigration.

Andy, can you tell me something about your family,

who is on the picture?

Yeah, yeah, sure. That's my mother and father.

-They come from Ireland. Yeah, they came over in the '60s.

-Oh, right.

-The mix.

-That's right.

-They come to England.

-They come to England, yeah.

Mariusz wants to find out more about Andy's family,

who came to London looking for work, just like himself.

Can you tell me something more about your family?

They came from Ireland to work in London

because there was money here, jobs.

So, probably my son,

when he is the age of Jamie, say, "Is there something wrong.

"There is something wrong because there are a lot of immigrants

"in England, but I'm born in this country.

"So I'm in the first of the job."

There is a stereotype - the Polish drink vodka

and you know, it's the stereotype.

But if you go closer to the people, you see there are different sides.

I don't mind people like Mariusz starting up a company, so I'll

give him his dues. He's putting something into this country.

What I do have a problem with is people similar to him

that have no skills that come over here and take, for instance, my job.

'Jamie and Andy may be building bridges with Mariusz

'but John is standing firm.

'He has invited Ramel to his hometown of Southend to discuss

'one of his biggest concerns about immigration, crime.'

My experience and my views is certainly not based

just on reading one particular newspaper.

I've got this view based on my long working life,

being in the court service.

'John has particularly strong opinions about crime,

'based on his own calculations using surnames found on court lists.'

I don't know what you feel about...

Have you got any view about crime?

Do you think it is blown out of proportion,

the amount of crime committed by migrants?

I think it is.

What you ought to do is look at criminal court lists

that are published.

When I worked in Crown Courts, I used to look at the lists

and work out proportions, just out of interest.

Look at the proportions of people there that are clearly

not of English extraction.

You can go by the names. I mean, it's obvious.

44% Bradford, were of non-English extraction.

Wood Green in London, 75%.

It's staggering, the number.

-How many of them, John, were convicted?

-I don't know.

-You don't know.

-I don't know.

We simply don't have the facts and figures to support that they

have really done wrong in society or not.

Sure, but I don't look at it like that.

I look at what's happening to our system.

'John has raised a controversial subject

'linking immigration to crime.'

When he worked as a clerk in the court system, he says a very large

proportion of the people who came into that court were immigrants.

Now, that may just be because they had foreign-sounding names

and of course not all people

with foreign names are immigrants, are they?

I wonder how mass immigration has affected the crime rate?

That would be interesting.

'Dr Brian Bell has carried out research into the link

'between crime and immigration.'

Brian, is there any evidence that immigration causes

an increase in the crime rate?

Overall, the answer is no.

So in some senses you would be surprised if it would

because over the last 15, 20 years, that is when

we've seen the biggest rise in immigration and actually,

crime has fallen almost year in, year out.

If the percentage of immigrants in the country is

something like 11 point something or other,

how does that reflect in the prison population, for instance?

Foreign nationals in prison are overrepresented relative

to their share of the population,

so about 12% of prisoners are foreign nationals and only about

8% or 9% of the population are foreign nationals.

Slightly different, immigrants, foreign nationals.

Part of the reason for that is that you can be arrested

at Heathrow for smuggling in cocaine.

You're a foreign national, but you never lived in this country

but you'll be in prison as a foreign national.

Are there any surveys that reflect the proportion of the immigrant

population who are guilty of crimes or charged with crimes?

Yeah, there are. So, the British Crime Survey,

an annual survey the government conducts, there it's very clear.

Immigrants are less likely to have been a defendant in court

and are less likely to have been arrested than natives.

So, any suggestion that immigrants are responsible

for an unduly high level of crime

-can be firmly stamped on.

-It can.

Overall, there's just no link whatsoever.

'It's not just crime that concerns some people.

'After living in Hounslow all her life, Kiran is moving.

'She felt there was a lack of interrogation

'from new immigrants to the area.

'She has invited Mohammed to her new home in Richmond, West London.'

-Good morning.

-Hello, good morning, Kiran. How are you?

-Very well.

-And who is this angel?

-This is Jaya.

-Hello, hello. How are you?

I must ask you first of all to please excuse the mess. We've just moved in.

Kiran wants to take Mohammed to her Sikh temple

to see how open he is to other cultures.

The Sikh community is massively open about who we let into our homes,

who we talk with, who we interact with

and who we allow our children to interact with as well.

You know, I'm a second-generation Sikh here, and I would...

I would not find it awkward, but I would still be a little bit hesitant,

-and I'm not sure how to approach the Somali community.

-Mm-hm.

And again, I think it's just a case

of not knowing about you as a community.

And I think it's down to

both communities having a little bit more to do with each other.

When you go to Southall or other places,

it seems that Sikhs keep to themselves.

'She's still a migrant,'

from a migrant family, and that running away from migrant groups,

saying that there are too many here, so that was really astonishing.

Kiran's temple, or "gurdwara", is open to anyone

as long as they cover their head

and haven't recently consumed meat, alcohol or tobacco.

-So, we're at the gurdwara now.

-Yes.

I can get in, but, you know, as an elder, going to a temple of...

in my religion, you know, I thought it might not be wise.

But it's really important to me as a person, and it's what shapes me,

-so that's why I wanted you to share that.

-But we have differences.

-Yeah.

We're different in our colour, we're different in our cultures,

we're different in the way we pray. We're different.

You know, these are differences. For example, we believe...

in one Allah, in God.

-What you're talking about is a much bigger debate.

-I know.

I think that's what I don't want to get into.

Yeah, but I don't want to get into that either.

-I am knowledgeable enough. Faith is faith.

-Mm.

-It's your faith.

It's your private matter. And you have your own rules.

I'm not going to ask you to pray. I don't want you to bow.

I don't want you to do anything that you're not comfortable with.

-I can go in personally.

-Right.

But to publicise it, you know,

in my opinion, it would not be comfortable with my community.

'By him not coming into the gurdwara today, it just proves'

that is he wanting to integrate and is he just wanting to learn more?

It's one thing just learning more, and it's one thing actually

appreciating it by understanding it and being involved in it.

In north-east London, Ted and Margaret have their own strong views

about religion and integration.

Since we came here, there have been a number of mosques.

Some have been built from new.

To see all these mosques makes me feel that we're no longer in England,

especially the way that they dress in their traditional dress,

and we've got to a point now

where we don't see hardly anybody

dressed in traditional English clothes.

Suits and shirts and ties are a thing of the past.

Rahat and Naseem want to take Ted and Margaret to their local mosque

to show them anyone can visit.

-You have never been entered in the mosque? No?

-No, no.

We only view them from the outside.

-They seem to be quite spectacular buildings.

-What's going on inside?

No idea at all. Erm, just to sort of clarify,

-there's no difference between a Sunni mosque and a Shia mosque?

-No.

-Do I need to wear a scarf before entering?

-Yes, yes.

Women have to wear a scarf,

-and we have to take our shoes off when we're going inside.

-OK.

-I can wear mine, or...?

-Did you need one scarf?

-Yes, perhaps I'll...

-I have one extra.

-Lovely. Can you put it on me?

-Yes, I can.

That'd be easiest, I think. It matches. It matches!

NASEEM LAUGHS

-I hope you like it.

-Yeah, I do. I like bright colours.

-Oops.

-Whoops-a-daisy!

MARGARET LAUGHS

-So, you can do either way. You look very nice!

-Oh, thank you.

-Yes.

Ted and Margaret are seeing the mosque

at one of the quietest times of day, before afternoon prayers.

So, what do they think?

Having now been given an opportunity to look at what's actually inside,

I was quite surprised how calm it all is in there, and, erm...

..there's nothing sinister going on.

I don't know that that's a good analogy, but you wonder.

You hear so many things, read so many things that are not good.

When I was younger, church mattered a lot to me,

and I went to worship in one on a regular basis.

It was a simple form of worship, the church that I went to,

and I'm really surprised when I've come into your place of worship

how simple it is, and I'm really pleased.

The mosque is on one road,

there is a church on one road and a Hindu temple,

and they are very close to each other,

and I think this is the harmony we should have for each other as well.

-I think this is true integration.

-It is. It is, exactly. It is.

With Ted and Margaret embracing new experiences,

Kiran hopes she can do the same with Mohammed.

She's asked him to join her in central London, where she volunteers

for a Sikh organisation that feeds the homeless.

I wanted Mr Haji to come here. This, for me, is about showing him,

well, look, we're living in Britain,

it's a multicultural society

regardless of whether anyone likes that or not,

and it should be about helping and serving everybody

and not just your own community.

-Hello, Kiran.

-How are you? Nice to meet you.

We really appreciate the work that you are doing in helping the needy.

-Yeah.

-You know, that's a good thing, also.

-Would you like to join in?

Er...

-Join in?

-Yeah! You can help serve.

-Er, no, thanks.

-No?

If you don't mind, no, thanks.

We're just handing out pasta, to be honest,

so it's just kind of standing there to hand stuff out.

Just stand there...

Well, this is bound to fulfilling an obligation, a religious obligation.

Not necessarily. Well, the Sikh religion is all about

serving other people and treating the human race as one.

Mr Haji has just said that he can't serve today because it's...

it's us as Sikhs

fulfilling, you know, one of our principles of our faith,

and whilst that is true...

..is that not true of all humans?

You know, is it not a fundamental principle just of our kind of,

you know, fibre to be able to kind of say

we should agree to help each other?

It shouldn't matter whether I'm a Sikh, whether he's Muslim,

whether I'm Christian or Buddhist or Jain or whichever religion I follow.

It should just be about helping each other,

and if communities like Mr Haji's and like the Sikh community

can stand shoulder to shoulder,

pull our resources together and help more people,

I mean, it would be fantastic.

I do appreciate the work Kiran's doing

regarding helping and supporting the poor and the needy.

But on the other hand, what I don't agree is that...

there is a religious Sikh aspect of it.

That's, er...

I don't mind them helping people and feeding people and the needy,

but that religious aspect, I really don't appreciate.

In Ilford, Ted's returning to the school run by Naseem and Rahat.

He's come to an English-language class

that they run for the children of immigrants.

Ali, would you please tell me what is noun?

-It's the name of a place, thing or person.

-Very good!

This is Ted's last chance to help him decide

if Naseem and Rahat are a gain or a drain on Britain.

Well, your students certainly seem interested in what they're doing.

You work every day, seven days a week?

Yes, I normally start nine o'clock and I finish ten o'clock.

You need to put all those hours in to earn a reasonable income?

Yes, because it's my visa requirement.

I have to earn more than 35,000 a year.

And if I don't get that level of income,

then we have to leave the country

and my husband's treatment couldn't be possible.

I was really surprised at the number of hours that they need to work

to make an income that will allow them to stay.

If it was to go wrong for them, there's no social hands-out for them,

and I think they would just have to go back, which...

doesn't really seem fair.

They've put everything into trying to make a go of life.

Ted is feeling closer to making a decision about Naseem and Rahat,

but Kiran feels she isn't getting many answers from Mohammed.

So she's hoping to learn more from his daughters.

I think it'd be quite interesting to ask them, really,

if and how much they want to integrate into British society,

you know, what their definition of British values is

and what it means to them, what it really means to them,

to live in Britain.

-Hello.

-Hello.

-Shall I take... I'll take my shoes off.

-It's all right.

-Are you sure? I don't mind at all.

-No, no problem.

What are you guys having for dinner tonight?

Today we make chicken, and this is the chips.

So it's not Somalian food, it's French food that you're eating!

When people are new to this country,

they are holding on to their own cultures and how they behave

and how their mannerisms are.

It's all very much how they would behave in their own country.

So in terms of, erm...

"Britishness", if you can call it that,

is there anything about you that I could or anybody could say is British

or indeed you could say is British?

-Well, we speak English.

-The way we act. What we eat.

-What do you eat?

-Fish and chips.

-Beans on toast. Fish and chips.

Like, we've integrated, eating all their foods. But...

Yeah, we go to their school, we speak with their people.

So, like, I'd say I'm British in one way, but then...

Yeah, it's not like we hate the country. We enjoy living here.

There's this assumption, don't you find, that people see you in Southall

and see the Somalian community and think...

KIRAN SIGHS ..I don't know, think that, erm...

Benefit seekers.

Yeah, benefit seekers, but also you're running away from...

it's not as bad as you make out,

so therefore you're here, because you really want to be here

but you're just saying we've come back from a civil...

we're trying to escape the civil war.

-Do you see what I mean?

-Yes. We escaped civil war.

They ran for their lives,

and all they had was the clothes on their backs and their children.

And that's all they had.

To make it seem like it was nothing and they could go back any time now

is not really serious, because they nearly died, basically.

In terms of actually settling down, where would you want to settle?

I would like to go back to Somalia just to help out the country.

Listen, many people now go back to Somalia

to help out after they get their degrees, like doctors and...

-Different people just go back to...

-They open businesses out there.

But don't you think that's quite interesting, in a way, because...

they are studying here and they're being given that education

through British teachers in British schools,

and we need doctors here, right?

They want us out, as well, they think there's too many immigrants

and wouldn't it be better if we left?

Yeah, but isn't it up to you to change that?

Isn't it up to you to say, "Well, no, I'm British and I'm proud to be here.

-"I'm not going anywhere"?

-AND to say, "I want to go back to my country".

I don't belong here, to be honest.

I belong in my country, and they don't want me here.

I'll help the both of us by moving there.

What would you say to people who say,

"You're just here for the short term"?

If we go back to our country and rebuild it,

then people would stop migrating to the UK.

So that would be better for the UK and for our country.

So I think that it would be beneficial

if we got our education here and then moved back to Somalia.

I've learnt that the Haji family are just a regular family

trying to get by.

Erm...

It could happen to anyone. There could be war anywhere.

There could be upheaval and unrest absolutely anywhere.

I think the other day, the first day that I met them,

when they said, "We want to go back to Somalia,"

I was thinking, "Yeah, I don't think you do".

Erm, but having spoken to them today,

they've got so much conviction about wanting to go back,

and also their reasoning behind it sounds really real.

Erm, you know, they want to make it a better place,

they're happy if it works, erm, you know, if it's a good country.

And I suppose if the war ends,

then they'll go back to better their country.

'For the British-born and the immigrants,

'their time together has come to an end.

'After challenging their different points of view

'and exploring their lives,

'will the Brits think the immigrants a gain or a drain on Britain?

'First up, Ted and Margaret.'

It's judgment time.

Rahat, Naseem - are they a gain or a drain on this country?

Naseem and Rahat have come here qualified

and they've got something great to offer.

The benefits far outweigh the...drain.

They're not taking anything out, but they're contributing,

is that it in a nutshell?

-Yeah.

-Totally. Yes.

What are they contributing? How are we gaining from them being here?

Well, they're helping to integrate their communities into ours.

There's the taxes they're paying.

We bring all of our money which we earned throughout our life

back in Pakistan, we bring it in this country and we invest it.

Well, I think this is something

that most of the indigenous white don't understand,

and it really is an eye-opener.

-Thank you very much.

-Thank you very much.

Obviously, the more you learn about what the facts are,

then it enables you to, er, make a better judgment.

And we mustn't forget, we've only seen one school

and one couple of immigrants,

and if they were all like that,

then there wouldn't be any real problem.

We appreciate and we are highly grateful, indeed,

that they think that we are contributing.

Golden words for me, for my whole life that immigrants are the gain.

Immigrants are not drain.

It's now time to find out Kiran's judgment on Mohammed

and if her views on immigration have changed.

It's about contribution, and you would argue, I'm sure strongly,

that your Sikh community, over the years,

has made a great, strong contribution to British society. OK?

Would you also argue with me that the Somali community,

though young in this country,

will one day make the same sort of contribution that yours has?

Well, I hope so.

At the moment, they aren't perhaps as open or as willing just yet.

You've got eight children who are going through the education system.

If they stay here, they'll contribute to our community,

and if they go back to Somalia,

they'll contribute very much to the Somalian community at home.

Well, Margaret, they have already started to contribute,

if I may say so. My first son has already working for two years.

Three of my children are now graduating this year.

My wife is about to start a business.

In my case, I'm working for seven and a half years.

Although it's very hard a task, we are trying our very best to achieve.

And many families have started to go back,

and we believe that when they go there they will take the culture,

they become ambassadors.

I think Britain will benefit from it.

Would you say that overall the UK gains

from having Mr Haji and his family here

or would you say they're a drain on the UK?

I would say gain...

erm, because Mr Haji's family isn't sitting at home idle.

Yes, they have eight children, and I would hope that they study hard

and invest back into the community then afterwards.

I think you have to be quite hard-faced to say to someone,

after spending, you know, nearly a week with them

and getting to know them

and being in their personal space in their home, meeting their family,

to afterwards then say, "Yeah, you're a drain on society"...

I think that'd be absolutely awful to hear.

'Next, it's back to meet Jamie and Mariusz.'

So, Jamie, what have you learnt from being with Mariusz

-over the last few days?

-Erm, an insight into his life, I'd say.

It's changed my views a bit on immigration

and the way I feel about foreign workers coming into this country.

What we need to do is have somebody find a line to say,

"Whoa, let's slow it down,

"look after the people who we've already got here".

It's too late now.

I mean, how can you ask someone who's come from Europe,

who's working hard here, wants to make his home...?

-We can't send him back.

-No.

Because he's a part of our culture, he's a part of our country now.

I guess the more people that work at your workshop

who are Polish, speaking Polish, the less likely it is

that you will inject into that group an English person,

-because you're all speaking Polish...

-No.

-No?

It's better for us if we are with some English,

because we start to learn the language better.

Do you think that he is a gain for British society

or do you think he's actually a drain on the society?

Yeah, he has changed my mind on that a bit, I'd say - not fully,

cos I've still got my points of view in my line of work.

-He's a contributor.

-Yeah. Definitely.

And there was a time, of course,

when the whole of the British construction business -

Irish navvies.

Yeah. That's right.

They built this country.

And that's what these people here are now doing.

After the first meeting with Andy,

I think that will be a very difficult conversation!

But when I show Jamie and Andy my life,

I think he changed the mind.

I still feel strongly about my points of undercutting

and working in worse conditions and stuff like that,

but what I've seen from him, I have no problem with him.

As I say, he's a gain to this country.

Margaret, I don't know whether you agree,

but is there a generational issue here?

Do the young people like Jamie find themselves

far more accepting of immigrants,

because Dad certainly didn't? The volume terrified him.

I have sympathy with Mariusz employing Polish workers,

because he wants skilled workers and he knows what he's getting.

And, you know, an English person could have taken the risk

of doing that and employing English people.

I think it's open borders and open minds,

that's what we should be thinking about,

and I think Mariusz should also consider taking on,

in the right spirit, taking on English workers.

I think he should.

'Last of all, it's time to hear John's judgment on Rommel.'

So, John, you're a

pretty mature sort of guy. Speak frankly.

Do you think, looking at Rommel, that we as a country

have gained by having him here or he's a drain on the UK?

I think he's definitely a gain. No question about it.

He's a gain, because he's giving our needy people...

In your work. So is your wife.

No problem, they're clearly a gain.

-I believe there are millions of Rommels.

-There might be.

It's not only me. You know, there are loads of us,

not only Filipinos but, you know, other migrant workers

contributing to the economy.

We don't claim. We cannot claim benefits, because the minute we do,

we will be sent back to our, you know, home country.

Now, that alone shows that we are contributing greatly to the economy.

-What do you think?

-It needs to be controlled,

and it isn't being controlled properly.

I think some moves are being made to address that,

but it's rather like closing the stable door

after the horse has bolted.

John is John, and no matter how, you know, the statistics,

no matter how much a person thinks...

of, you know, the contribution migrant workers does to the UK,

I don't think his views will change. John is John, and that's what he is.

Listening to John

was listening to the gut feeling of millions of Britons

informed by thousands of newspaper articles and editorials.

Yes, and then, when he met Rommel and he got to know him

and he realised he was contributing, he thinks Rommel's an exception.

It's always the way, Margaret! Judge as you find.

It's the end of the experiment.

So, what can we take away from the whole experience?

Well, we've heard what each of our pairings has to say, haven't we?

And I know it's only a snapshot of the immigration debate.

But do you think from the people that we've met

we can judge whether immigration is a gain or a drain?

I'm not sure.

One of the strongest messages we've picked up

is a concern about integration,

and nearly all of our British-born have to some extent

felt alienated from their own communities,

and that's a really emotional issue.

But on the other hand, take people like Mariusz and Rahat and Naseem.

They've started businesses and they're contributing.

The question is, Margaret,

does that outweigh the demands that immigrants place on public services?

There are shortages in housing and in school places.

That's not the fault of the immigrants,

but they definitely increase the pressure on those services.

But the NHS couldn't function without immigrant workers.

And look, here we are in the centre of London.

It's a city more or less built by immigrants.

Surely, Margaret, the question that people need to ask themselves

is what sort of society do they want Britain to be.

Wouldn't we rather be seen across the world

as a society that's open and welcoming

rather than one that's intolerant and closed?