Gay to Straight Stacey Dooley in the USA

# America... #

-The United States of America...

-# We love you... #

..leaders of the free world and home to all sorts of products,

brands and trends that we love.

But there's one export from the USA that hasn't gone down so well.

An advert suggesting gay people can be cured

through therapy has been banned by Transport For London.

TFL says the adverts

"don't reflect a tolerant and inclusive London."

'I'm heading to America to find out more'

about the controversial world of gay conversion therapy.

If a parent comes to me and says,

"We would like to increase

"the probability of his being heterosexual,"

that's not homophobia.

It's not just, "Oh, I don't want you to be gay."

I mean, it would be like me trying to decide if I would be OK with him being a terrorist.

I'll be getting to know the guys going through it...

There's a big part of me that just wants to start liking boobies NOW!

..and the women married into it.

'Sure, it makes me sad that he struggles with this and that'

he doesn't see other girls as attractive, but he can perform with me,

so I must have what it takes!

And so a healthy hug would just be full contact.

And I'll be trying to find out

if it really is possible to make yourself straight.

This is non-sexual.

Nobody's sexualising this with you.

I'm a man and I have emotional needs.

And I'm not gay.

# I'm beautiful in my way Cos God makes no mistakes

# I'm on the right track, baby I was born this way... #

I've come to Los Angeles to spend the day

at one of the world's biggest gay pride events.

Over 400,000 people have come out to celebrate being gay

and their right to be who they want to be.

Thank you, Ma'am! Happy Pride.

Happy Pride!

-Have fun!

-Have fun!

But not all Americans are as proud of their sexuality.

There's a subculture of homosexual men

having a controversial type of therapy

to turn themselves straight.

A campaign group who oppose this gay conversion therapy

are canvassing here.

For me, coming from England, it certainly doesn't seem...

I mean, we've heard of it and there's rumours that it's

going to start, sort of, seeping through.

But here, it seems like a well-known thing

that lots of people talk about.

In general, Californians have a hard time believing that there is

such a strong homophobic opposition.

It's something that, living in a place like Los Angeles,

living in a place like San Francisco, San Diego, an urban centre,

you sort of assume everybody's educated and accepting

and essentially tolerant.

But you go to places like the Inland Empire, where I grew up,

the Riverside, the Fontana areas,

you go to the Fresnos and the Bakersfields and, you know,

you find church after church, community after community,

that engages in really unfortunate gay bashing,

if you want to look at it that way.

'Despite opposition from major mental health organisations,'

there are licensed therapists currently offering

gay conversion therapy across America.

'One of these therapists is Floyd Godfrey.

'He runs a clinic in Gilbert, Arizona.'

Hello, there.

-Hello, how are you?

-Good, Stacey. Nice to meet you.

-Nice to meet you, Floyd. Thank you for having me.

-Come on in. You bet.

-Really appreciate it.

-You're straight back here, number two.

Thank you.

Floyd, you wouldn't describe the clients that come to see you

as gay men, homosexual men?

We would use a term called same-sex attraction,

that they're attracted, that it's more of a condition,

a variation, of orientation.

So we're not working with gay men who identify themselves as

they feel like they were born that way or that's who they are.

We're working with people who don't feel like that's who they are

and that those attractions have come from other issues in their life.

'Floyd has agreed to introduce me to a 19-year-old client

'who he has been helping to overcome his attraction to men.'

Hi. How are you?

-Hello, how are you?

-Good.

-I'm Stacey.

-I'm TJ. Nice to meet you.

Real pleasure to meet you and thanks ever so much for letting me sit in.

-I'm very grateful.

-Oh, no worries.

-Thank you.

-I'll be as quiet as a mouse...

-Whatever! No worries.

..when I'm here.

So, I'm glad you came in, TJ.

We haven't... It's been a little while since I've seen you.

You've been doing good work and accomplishing a lot of your goals.

Just give me a little check-in.

Tell me where you're at and where things are at.

Well, I've even noticed, I'll experience

a severe diminishing of the SSA feelings,

but that's not necessarily true of the addiction to pornography...

-OK, good.

-..where I'll still be struggling with

the pornography issue, but I'm not going through my day,

I'm not been triggered by guys that I'm seeing,

I'm not feeling the needs.

But I'm still struggling with the pornography.

So I've really seen that distinction grow over the last couple of months.

Do you feel like that's been one of the harder parts of all the therapy?

Yeah.

Getting those behaviours under control?

-Absolutely.

-Yeah.

'According to Floyd, if TJ's to make

'himself straight, it's important he stops using gay porn.'

The frequency of my acting out with gay pornography did diminish,

but it was still going on, you know,

maybe once a week, once or twice a week.

Greatly diminished from where it had been, you know,

-two, three times a day to...

-Really?!

Yeah. It was bad.

Lots of tissues?

HE LAUGHS

-Yes.

-That's a lot, isn't it? Two or three times a DAY?

-Yeah.

-And it was always gay, it was never straight porn?

-Always, always.

I tried straight porn and it just didn't...

Thought it was kind of gross.

TJ, what are you hoping for? Ideal scenario.

Find a girl who's opposite,

she just completes me, I guess.

She's pretty, she's not much taller than me.

I really want her to be my best friend. I'd love to marry my best friend.

And then to see that develop into...

You know, obviously, there's a sexual aspect to a marriage,

and then I'd love to have kids and grow old with her.

It's a really odd one, because TJ will stand and tell me that

he absolutely doesn't feel sexually attracted to men anymore.

When he sees a lad crossing the street that's quite handsome,

doesn't do anything for him. The feelings have gone.

They've diminished because of Floyd.

Then, in the same breath, he'll say,

'"I am still watching gay porn

'"and I'm masturbating to gay porn."'

I know I'm not a genius, by any stretch of anyone's imagination,

but if you're mad keen on gay porn

and straight porn isn't doing it for you,

maybe there are still gay elements of you.

'TJ's decision to fight against what comes naturally to him

'is baffling, and I'd like to know more about

'why he's chosen to do this.

'He's invited me to spend the day with him at his family home.'

Hello, TJ. How are you?

-Good. How are you, Stacey?

-Nice to see you.

-Nice to see you.

-What a nice house!

-Come on in. Thank you.

So, your mum's in?

-Yeah, my mum and my brother are both in.

-Oh, brilliant.

-Your younger brother?

-My younger brother, Curtis.

He's just two-and-a-half years younger than me.

-Hello, Mum! Hello! How's things?

-Hi!

-Lovely to meet you.

-Thank you for having me.

-It's nice to meet you...

-Stacey.

-Stacey. Yes.

-And this is Curtis.

-Hello, Curtis.

-Hi, how you?

-God, you're alike, aren't you?

-Oh, my God! You look so alike!

-Yeah.

-People used to think we were twins.

-I can see that!

'I want to know if TJ's little brother, Curtis,

'supports his therapy.'

So, at 12, you find out that your brother likes guys?

Yeah.

Cos there was always... I mean, the way acted before,

it just, kind of, made sense.

But to actually know, like, for a fact that, like, he's,

you know, he has that problem, you know, that's just kind of...

It made me look at him like he was, you know, way different than me.

It almost made things awkward for a little while.

Just like being around Curtis was just a little...

Just awkward. That's a good word. It was just weird for a while.

You know, he's my brother and, you know, I love him and everything,

but, like, I don't know if I would be, you know,

supportive of him choosing to be gay.

And Mum, when you and your husband thought, you know, this...

"We may well have to accept the fact that TJ is going to live a gay lifestyle",

what did that mean to you?

-How did that make you feel?

-I love TJ. He's my son.

He will always be my son.

But I was well aware that, if he chose that,

there would be a barrier between us.

Not that I would purposefully do that,

but I think just any kid that is doing something that they know

their parents don't agree with or don't want for them,

I think that puts a barrier there, no matter how loving the relationship is.

I really thought TJ was going to be a great husband and daddy.

This isn't what I pictured for our family.

This isn't the brotherly relationship...

I mean, you start grieving all those things that you don't even realise

were expectations that you had, until you

are at a point where you're risking not having that.

So it's not just, "Oh, I don't want you to be gay."

I mean, it's just so much bigger than that, you know?

I mean, it would be like me trying to decide

if I would be OK with him being a terrorist.

You know, I mean, it's just anything that would be like, "What?!"

It's just bigger than just that.

'I'm starting to understand why TJ might feel

'that he HAS to change himself.'

Well, I told my parents my 8th grade year.

I got the first D that I'd ever had in a class,

and my mum pulled me aside and said, "What on Earth are you doing?

"What's going on?"

And it just came all gushing out. My poor mother!

I just like vomited all of this at her, you know.

"I'm watching gay porn and I think I'm gay!"

And just all of this just came pouring out at her.

I was crying, cos I have finally gotten all this stuff out

and my mum was just bawling.

And then Dad came home and he was furious.

'Although they reacted badly at first,

'TJ still appears to have a good relationship with his parents.'

This is Dad.

This is Curtis, and then that's me and Dad.

-You know, he's still there...

-Yeah.

-..despite going completely crazy when he found out.

-Yeah.

I think what I would have done in that situation. I don't know that I would've done it any differently.

-Really?

-I just... I mean, it was just so out of the blue.

I just, literally, dropped an atom bomb on their life.

I mean, he loved me. He just wanted to give me the help that I needed.

Do you feel the pressure of having to keep up with your therapy

and make sure that the same-sex attraction feelings never

creep back in, for your folks, for your parents and your family?

It's... I guess it's just kind of like anything else, like weight loss.

Floyd uses that analogy a lot. Somebody who weighs a lot.

And, at first, it's an effort to control what they eat

and to count calories and do all that kind of stuff.

But as time goes on, it becomes routine.

It's the same way with the lifestyle of recovery that I'm living.

At first, it was very... I had to make time with friends.

Yeah, it took a lot of effort to try and make all this work.

But now, it's just kind... It's how I live, you know.

This is just who I am now.

You know, I want, my heart desires, to have a wife and kids,

and for that, you know, I feel the pressure of...

I'm devoting myself to this lifestyle of recovery for her, whoever she is,

out there, because I care, because I want that badly enough

that I'm going to sacrifice now for the gains later.

'I've come to a small town in Utah to meet another man

'who has gone through conversion therapy

'and is willing to talk to me.'

Hello!

-Who is that?

-Hello. How are you?

-Good.

-I'm Stacey.

-Hi, nice to meet you.

'Danny lives with his wife Erin and their two small children.'

-This is Jude.

-Hello, little 'un!

Oh my God, you're lovely!

-And Jude is named after the Beatles' song, isn't he?

-Yeah.

-So brilliant!

-And so is Desmond.

-From Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da.

-That's fantastic!

So, here's our retro kitchen.

Who does the house? It's lovely.

-Danny totally does.

-Do you, Danny?

-I do.

He picks the colours on the walls and he organises.

I'll say, "Danny, I want a side table."

And he'll just... Takes some time, trying to find exactly what kind,

-and then he'll...

-Make it happen.

-Look at you go!

-He's sensitive!

THEY LAUGH

Is that one of the positives,

-being married to a guy with same-sex attraction?

-Yeah!

Look how nice my house is!

SHE LAUGHS

'Danny and Erin got engaged after a two-month whirlwind romance,

'and have been married for five years.'

Well, Danny had dated a couple of girls prior, and they dated for years.

So I feel like it's a compliment that, like,

six weeks in and he was like, "She's the one!" You know?

-What is it about Erin?

-I don't know. It's just her...

personality and how fun she is,

but also just how I can really talk with her about anything.

-We're best friends.

-I had never... All those girls who I dated forever,

I had never told them about my same-sex attraction.

Erin, I told her, how long after?

It was before we were engaged,

so within that first two months sometime I told her!

So Erin, were you in love with Danny when Danny told you,

"I've got these feelings, I've got gay feelings"?

I think so and I remember...

You know, at first, kind of being like, "Oh, crap!"

"I'm going to have to maybe end this," or, "What does this mean?"

And I prayed about it and I did some deep meditation

and soul-searching, and it just wasn't an issue.

You know, we're all imperfect. My dad has a phrase.

He says, "We're all dealt cards.

"It's just a matter of how you play it," you know?

And so he was dealt with this card and how's he going to play it?

He wants to play it this way. So I'm on board.

We got married cos I love Erin, but there was a part of me

that wondered, is this going to go away once I'm married?

And hoped that it would. And it didn't.

And that's when I started researching and trying to find help.

Have you ever been...

When Danny says that to you, do you get nervous and start thinking

is he going to start fancying guys, am I going to have to watch him around other men?

I really feel like Danny could...

He checks out guys, some guys check out girls. You know, I just...

I know that he checks out me, so...you know!

Since I've been married, I don't think there's been a huge question, is this what I really want?

We all have trials that we face in this life and there was a time

when I was being told

if you're gay, you're gay, that's just who you are.

That was devastating for me, because I had these goals to have

a family, I had these religious beliefs and it didn't fit together.

But when I started realising that change was possible,

and I started finding those resources, it was a relief for me.

This is my trial. I'm not exempt from them

and I need to learn to work through it the best I can.

You can't play the "what if" game, all you can do is just...

go from now.

'The men who go through conversion therapy

'are told that emotional wounds in childhood

'have led to their homosexuality,

'so they think for a boy to grow up straight,

'it's important that he feels close to his father.'

So Danny, I know you believe that

the reason you felt homosexual feelings

was because of the way you were raised, your environment,

that kind of thing.

Does that mean you make a real effort to...

..raise your boys in a way that they don't have the same feelings?

I try to make sure that I'm conscious of them, their feelings.

Jude was always more independent.

Desmond wants to be helped by Mom all the time.

Desmond's a little bit quieter and kinda reminds me

of me a little bit.

So, with him, I may have to make more of a conscious effort.

It's all about our perception,

and Desmond might perceive that Danny doesn't like...

That a connection never forms.

So, if that happens, that's fine.

But we're going to do everything we can to try to prevent it.

If Desmond was gay...

or you're going to have more kids, if any of them turns out

to want to be a gay man, that wouldn't be an issue?

I would have to take a good look at myself and see,

what did I do, where did I mess up?

I just... I understand,

and I've experienced some of the hardships

that can come from that life,

and so I wouldn't want that path for them.

'Danny thinks his attraction to men is due to a bad relationship with his own father'

and over the years, he has struggled to tell him what he was going through.

Mom has known... probably five years ago.

But my dad, I just told him about maybe a year and a half ago.

I wanted the support of somebody,

-but I wasn't sure how he would respond, so...

-Right.

'Raised in a strict religious household,

'Danny was brought up as a Mormon, a conservative branch

'of Christianity that won't accept openly gay men.'

Stacey, do you want to use Jude's glove?

SHE LAUGHS

Yes! I think that's probably the level I'm at, to be honest.

'He's brought me over to his parents' house for some softball practice with his dad.'

Good!

So Bruce, you only found out fairly recently?

-Yeah.

-Talk me through that, Bruce. What happened?

Erm...

It was...

kind of a shock -

not that

he has this attraction...

but when he explained to me

the whole philosophy of the role

that I may have played, unknowingly, that was hard.

I raised my kids the way my dad raised me.

So, I was a travelling salesman,

I was gone one week out of every three weeks.

And part of the rejected feelings that he felt

came in part from my being gone so much.

And so I was doing what I thought was right,

making it possible for his mother to stay home from work,

and spend time with the kids and raise them...

and it turns out that was part of the problem.

But initially, it was devastating.

Maybe more so than the fact that he told me

he was having these same-sex attraction kinds of feelings.

You know, we could deal with that, but all of a sudden

it was something I had done that I had to deal with, and that was difficult.

Isn't that the arguments to be had, Danny,

that every single kid on planet Earth

feels distant and angry

and frustrated with their parents at one time or another?

But I think there's a difference between being upset with the parents

and feeling a disconnect from the parents.

And like I said, I think a lot of problems kind of stem

from some of the same things, that disconnect from the parents.

Some kids turn to drugs, some kids turn to criminal behaviours.

And it's something that starts very young.

Usually, this disconnect happens

sometime between the ages of one and a half and three to four years old.

So it's more than just, "I'm upset with my parents",

it's the disconnect.

The thing about tackling this kind of topic,

you know, trying to learn about gay conversion therapy

and trying to understand lots of different people's perspective,

it's really hard, because I have had a look online and I have researched,

and there's no hard actual statistic

scientific evidence on whether it works or whether it doesn't

or how many have "been cured" and how many haven't.

So it's almost difficult to have a tangible conversation, because

sometimes you think one thing, they think another.

And you're often going round and round in circles.

'According to the therapy, it's not just relationships with fathers

'that need to be worked on.

'It's important that guys who want to make themselves straight

'build strong friendships with other men.'

-This is us?

-This is us!

'I'm back in Arizona, with TJ,

'who relies on one of these friends to help him fight the urge to use gay porn.'

He calls me every night and just asks me what my plan is for the night.

Because he knows that I've struggled with an addiction to pornography,

and so every night he calls me about the time that he knows I go to bed,

and just asks me how I'm doing.

And it has been immensely helpful to have somebody to talk to in the moment.

And I know that, if I'm ever really struggling, I can shoot him

a text or call him and just say "Hey, I need to talk to you.

"I'm lonely" or whatever, "I need somebody to talk to."

And he's just always there for me.

Does he have homosexual feelings?

-Yes.

-Really?

-He struggles also.

-That's really interesting.

-It really is,

and it's kind of crazy, because we've worked a lot to make sure

that the basis of our relationship is not that commonality.

Because we both share the feeling that

if the only reason we're friends is because we both struggle,

then at some point, either we're going to have a massive falling-out

or we're going to cause each other to stumble.

And that's not what we're looking for.

-And have you been able to manage that, so far?

-We have.

We've even got to the point where I spent the night

over at his apartment the other night and we were just

kind of wrestling around and just...

being boys, and there was no attraction

on either side.

I mean, our friendship is just so based on camaraderie

and just being men together,

that there's just not even an issue with the fact that we both struggle.

'TJ's supportive friend Casey lives in nearby Phoenix.'

Hello.

-How's life?

-Good.

-Good.

'The boys first met at a group for men trying to change their sexuality.'

So, Casey, tell me how you and TJ have become friends.

We met in January, but didn't actually hang out until March.

And then... So we just grabbed lunch

and I asked him his story,

I told him mine.

I had never actually been friends with someone else that struggled.

So it was new and interesting for me

because I had never actually talked to someone.

-That's really cool.

-It is, it's really nice.

And TJ has told me that you will text him, literally, every night,

like, you're the most loyal friend, saying, "Hey, how are you doing?"

Obviously, pornography is an issue for both and so...

"All right, let's... You're having a bad day, let me know." Vice versa.

"How you doing? What's going on? How's today been? You doing good?"

And just, you know...

Isolation is where this is going to breed and so...

Yeah, I'm going to do it as much as I...

Every night when I think about it. "How are you? What's going on?"

So, I know you and TJ are really good friends.

Was that always the idea from the get-go?

It never was, like, one of us trying to get a date or a friend.

It was...

We're both Christians, we both believe very strongly about that

and this is a struggle in our lives, and so...

You have a Christian brother that understands beyond just

what he's been told, but through experience, understands.

And so, no, it never has been anything more than...

We're just good friends.

Mm-hm.

'TJ's therapist Floyd organises weekend camping trips

'as part of the therapy.

'And today, everyone's meeting up at his family home.'

-Hello! How's things?

-Good morning.

-Nice to see you again, Floyd.

Nice house! Look at this.

-Are you excited for today?

-I am, come on in.

-We're ready to go, getting ready.

-Hello.

-This is my wife.

-Lovely to meet you.

-That's my son Austin...

-What's your name?

-Kayleen.

-Nice to meet you.

'Floyd has first-hand experience of what his clients are going through,

'having fought against his own homosexuality.'

So how long have you been married?

We just celebrated 20 years.

-Wow! Congratulations.

-Yeah.

It's been, um...

an interesting 20 years!

-Right.

-Yeah. It's been great.

Would you change any of it?

I think that we've learned a lot.

But I don't know that you'd change that,

-because that's... You go through the bad to learn the good.

-Yeah.

'Those who have been on the weekends before are made staff members

'and given special responsibilities.'

-Danny! Look at you! Representing England.

-Yup.

-Kicking off.

-So what's your role?

-I'm the captain.

-Oh.

That means I'm basically in charge of making sure everything

runs smoothly, that we're staying on time...

Just kind of overseeing the organisation of everything.

I'm on the booster crew,

so it's my job to help maintain a real boyish attitude.

Because if we're not careful, it can get kind of sombre

and solemn with the therapy aspect,

so if that starts to happen,

we'll just, like, pick up a game of football or tag or something -

just ridiculous little fun games

just to kind of get the energy back up. So, that's my job.

-My God, is that all your stuff?!

-That's my stuff.

-That's quite heavy, TJ.

-I'm quite strong.

Let me see that.

Oh, my gosh!

Jeez Louise.

Floyd will be leading a 20-strong group of men into the northern

Arizona wilderness, to set up camp for a weekend of male bonding.

For the men and boys who are trying to work on their self-esteem

and their sense of confidence, the men who have successfully

changed their orientation are doing these kinds of things.

Why is self-esteem so important?

Well, for these guys particularly, they often grew up feeling like

they couldn't measure up to the other guys, they didn't feel as good as the other guys.

Comparing themselves to the other guys didn't feel...

Like, their gender confidence - they weren't "guy" enough.

So that's why we do it,

to kind of fill the need they've had, that's been so empty for them.

Bye!

Bye! Love you.

'This unusual technique for trying to change a man's sexuality

'is something Floyd would like to bring to the UK.'

Some of my associates have gone over

and they've done some weekends similar to this.

And they've been very well received.

We've also had people from the United Kingdom fly to America

to do some of the programmes, and I believe that their perception

was that they couldn't get that kind of help over there.

Even more so than in America, they feel very underground -

don't feel like they can say they want to change,

almost as though they feel like they're not allowed

to have that desire to change.

It's such a hot topic right now.

A couple of weeks before I came out here to look at this exact thing,

slogans were meant to go up on our London double-decker buses

advertising this kind of work,

and the Mayor pulled them, he was like, "No way.

"I'm not promoting intolerance in a tolerant city."

Interesting when you say tolerance.

There seems to be tolerance for blind acceptance,

but not tolerance for those who would like help.

We would like the respect from the gay community,

that if this is what we feel,

that they would be willing to respect that.

We want to put billboards on the buses as much as they want to.

And I don't think that that's fair.

Some of the guys coming on this retreat

have travelled hundreds of miles to take part.

-Where you guys coming in from?

-San Diego.

-San Diego, all right.

Each one has to come with a heterosexual companion,

who is usually a close friend or family member,

and ages range from men in their 30s down to 17-year-olds.

Hello.

-How are you?

-Good, how are you?

-What's your name?

-Skyler.

-Skyler, I'm Stacey.

Nice to meet you.

-What's going on?

-Nothing.

-Just got here?

-Yeah.

-What are you expecting?

-I don't know, I'm really nervous.

-A bit nervous?

-Little bit.

How are you feeling?

Good, ready to hike. Go down there and...

I've never been here, so I'm excited to see the terrain.

A good weekend to spend some time together, so we're looking forward to it.

It will be wicked.

And what are you hoping to get from the weekend, Dad?

Uh...

-Whatever they've got to teach. We're here to...

-Learn.

Yeah, learn and see where to improve.

To ensure the men are able to bond,

Floyd absolutely forbids any females from attending camp.

But I'm allowed to come back on Sunday, right?

-Yes, we'll have you back on Sunday.

-What time?

-Around noon.

You guys are going to be absolutely shattered!

I'll be fresh as you like.

I'll be showered, my teeth will be done, yeah.

-Wicked. I'll see you Sunday, then.

-Very good. Very good.

Ta, Floyd, thank you.

I've got to go, I'm going to leave you guys to it.

-See you!

-Bye!

-Bye!

Floyd does allow the all-male camera crew to stay while I'm away.

And, as the day draws to a close,

the guys pair off with their straight buddies...

It should push through this hole!

..in the hope that this weekend might deliver the change they're looking for.

Over the next couple of days, the guys take part in team-building

tasks designed to strengthen male friendship.

So, a healthy hug would just be full contact.

That's OK, you can pat, but then just hold on.

They're taught how to enjoy non-sexual male touch.

-Do you feel safe?

-Yes.

And to come to terms with their body issues, the group strip off for sports.

But it's not all fun and games.

An important part of the camp is a group therapy session

in which the men are encouraged to talk about their father issues.

I still don't have a very good relationship with him.

He connected a lot more with my brother than with me.

He liked sports, he liked hunting,

he liked all the masculine stuff and I hated that stuff.

And so, he didn't know what to do with me,

so I just really didn't attach with him.

OK, thank you.

Thanks for sharing.

Skyler's dad has been told that his poor relationship with his son

may have contributed to Skyler's attraction to men.

Skyler, I love you more than...

than life itself.

All I ever wanted is to...

..to protect...

To be there for him.

To be there for you.

To not have you hurt.

To have you know that you've got somebody

that cares about you and loves you.

It's OK if you cry.

Just look at your dad.

Tell him what that was like for you.

I haven't...

..had to deal with that, I guess.

I don't know how it...

I don't know what I'm trying to say.

For me, it's always been, you were there to provide and everything,

but I never got to see you.

At least, I thought your work was more important.

And that...

I don't know, I just wasn't, you know,

growing up to be what you wanted me to be.

Watching fathers and their sons having the opportunity to bond

hits some members of the group hard.

Aaron is 35 and still hasn't come out to his parents.

I've been on a lot of weekends in the last few months

and I've done a lot of emotional work.

This is the first one that's just focused on SSA.

I come in, and like that reflex that wants to compare just goes wild

and it's like, oh gosh, these guys are starting out at a really young age,

that's awesome, I wish I had that.

And, like, these guys are married and they're working on it,

I wish I'd gotten married years ago, you know?

And these guys are going through it and they've gotten help

and they're staffing events and they're like ten years younger than me or whatever,

and I'm thinking, like, for all those years, I was like,

just show me the door and I'll run through it.

-So I guess...

-You're out the door, buddy, right now.

An important part of the therapy

is learning how to feel accepted by other men

and to have the confidence to ask for a hug when you need one.

Everybody, pull in, everybody.

This is non-sexual.

Nobody's sexualising this with you, this is just healthy buddies.

You don't have to have sex with a guy to feel loved

or to get a healthy touch.

Tell me what you're feeling, Aaron.

I'm a man, I have emotional needs and I have same-sex needs

and I need those to be met, and I'm not gay.

We'll love on you as long as you need.

HE LAUGHS

This feels really good right now, thanks, guys.

You're welcome.

While the guys are on their camping weekend,

I'm taking the opportunity to visit Danny's wife, Erin,

to find out more about their marriage and how honest

she's able to be with friends and family.

There we go.

So, I know you know a lot of your neighbours,

but they don't necessarily know why I'm here.

-For sure.

-What do we say, if they ask?

So, I don't have any problems talking about Danny's therapy,

so I would just say, "They're just here to document Danny's therapy."

-OK.

-But in regards to his aspect of it being SSA,

-I'd probably keep that out.

-OK. No, that's completely cool.

'An online support group is Erin's only chance to be completely

'open about her relationship.'

And why is it important that you guys keep it to yourself?

I feel like this is something sacred between us, and it's...

I don't want people to judge.

You know, I don't want to give people reasons to judge.

Maybe that's my own insecurities and pride and stuff like that,

but I don't feel like it's any of their business.

I've got my secret that I don't like to disclose to everyone, so...

-I placed a baby for adoption when I was 21.

-Wow.

Yeah, so that's something I don't go around saying, "Guess what?"

You know, it's part of me and part of my past,

and just like with this, with Danny, it's a part of him,

and even though he is working on it presently and I have worked on mine

in the past, it's something that's just not...

I had my scarlet letter, he doesn't have a scarlet letter.

I had to talk about it sometimes - "What are you doing knocked up?" you know.

But with Danny, it's just private.

Yeah. And was that baby with Danny?

Uh-uh, it was with another guy,

who treated me like... When me and my sister talk about

how good Danny treats me, this guy was not.

He was...

He didn't love me and I loved him,

and so he didn't treat me with respect, you know?

So I gave him my all and he didn't give it in return.

Do you think that makes it easier for you to accept Danny how he is?

For sure, for sure, yeah.

I, um...

BABY CRIES

Oh, no! What's wrong?

I was a little bit hesitant to tell you,

just because I don't want it to seem like I settled for Danny

because of my past, and that's not it at all.

If anything, you know, he settled for me, you know?

We all have our past, so...

And it does make me so that I'm more accepting of Danny,

and I'm so much more...

He really treats me so amazing, and I've...

I know, because I've been there before in bad situations.

Yeah, it makes a real difference, I think,

when you've been with a bit of a wrong 'un

and when you've been with someone who doesn't treat you very nicely,

then you meet someone who does treat you lovely...

-"Oh, this is really nice!"

-Yeah, yeah.

Man, I miss my bed.

'It's the final morning of camp

'and I've come back to find out how the guys have got on.'

Before coming on the trip, TJ felt his sexual attraction to men

had already been reduced to a very low level and I'm curious

to find out if the weekend has changed anything for him.

How was yesterday?

It was good, I really enjoyed it.

It was just really cool to watch a lot of the dads

just, kind of, breakdown, right down in front of their sons.

It was just a really cool...moment.

-How are you feeling in you?

-Good, you know.

Being out here and being in the woods, away from the city

and being with a bunch of guys, it's just...

It's refreshing, you know? It kind of reminds me why I'm fighting.

Do you feel stronger?

Do you feel like the homosexual feelings have gone down?

I haven't noticed, you know, any more of a drop,

just me feeling stronger in my own masculinity,

me feeling more confident about myself.

-So there's no change with women?

-Not much.

I am kind of just noticing them more

and maybe that's where it starts,

but there's not any big, like, "Oh my goodness!" you know?

Are you anxious, TJ, that they just won't ever come -

-those feelings aren't meant for you?

-No.

I know it is just going to take time.

And there's a big part of me that just wants to start liking boobies now!

-"Can you just hurry up and let me like boobs, please?"

-Exactly!

-What will be, will be, TJ.

-Yeah, and it will take time.

The weekend has come to an end,

but there's one final piece of camp business to be done.

We're going to take each team, you're going to come

and stand in the middle, and we are going to have you

tell the other person the gold that you see in them.

Aaron, the gold I see in you is a compassion for people.

The weakness that you see is the strength that I see.

'I'm moved to see that the camp

'has brought fathers and sons closer together.'

Skyler, the gold I see in you is the ability to...

..love others unconditionally.

To accept them for who they are...

..and to give up yourself... for the good of others.

I love you.

'The guys have been able to be more open about their homosexuality,

'something they usually have to hide.

'But I'm also aware that boys as young as 17 are being told

'that their natural attractions are a fault that can be fixed.'

What's been the best part of the weekend for you?

Me and my dad came together, and, for me, a big...

Like, the core of all my problems was the horrible relationship I had with my dad.

And a problem that's been, like, 17 years in the making

has been almost fixed within a day.

-I cried for the first time, like, ever.

-Yeah?

I don't cry, that never happens.

Usually, in the past, I would try to, like,

cover up my emotional pain through physical pain.

I would cut myself or I would do something just to distract myself

from the emotional pain, just so that it was less,

cos I hated feeling the way that I did.

I know my dad, and I know that he can handle almost anything,

except...

This was the one thing he wouldn't tolerate, I guess.

Now he understands. This weekend has been a good thing for both of us,

because now he knows, you know,

just because you have same-sex attraction doesn't mean you're gay

and it doesn't mean that you like everyone, every guy you see.

It's not something like that, it's, you know...

It's unwanted, at least for me, so that give him some hope that,

you know, we can change and everything.

You can do this.

People that are pro-conversion therapy will argue and say,

17-year-olds should have absolutely as much choice as everyone else.

It should be open for all.

But then you have to think,

has the 17-year-old really been given a choice?

Has the 17-year old been sat down and told that being a gay man

is on a par with being a straight man, that they're both equally OK?

You know, whatever you choose, they're both the same?

I don't think they have.

You're not allowed to have a beer over here until you're 21,

but you're allowed to go to a camp and be moulded

and be taught different ways to change yourself.

It just doesn't sit comfy with me.

There are no exact figures,

but Floyd claims that around a third of those going through

his type of therapy will get the result they want.

'I've come to Long Beach, California, to meet a gay man

'who tried various conversion programmes,

'but in the end realised they were never going to work for him.'

-Hello!

-Hello.

-Are you David?

-Yes, I am.

-I'm Stacey, thank you for having me.

-Nice to meet you.

Stacey, this is my boyfriend, my partner, Angel.

Hello, how's things? Nice to meet you.

-Nice to meet you, how are you?

-I'm Stacey.

-Angel.

My God, what a handsome couple you are!

-Look at the pair of you! Ding-ding-ding!

-Oh, stop!

Yeah, "Stop it, don't do it, don't say how handsome we look."

'David is 26 years old and has known he's gay since childhood

'but struggled to come to terms with it.'

So, would you mind talking me through what these camps,

conferences, all these things that you tried, what were they like?

It wasn't all bad for me.

In fact, at first, I was very grateful for that community,

because I found, um...

friends, I found people going through what I was going through.

So, I found Christian men of all ages, and many of my own age,

who were experiencing an attraction to men and didn't want to be gay.

And I thought, "Oh, this is great," you know?

"I'm home."

It's just so interesting for me to sit here and listen to your story,

because I've been spending time with young lads who are 17,

19, 21, and they're going through the conversion therapy

and they're going to similar things that you describe.

It truly breaks my heart and it really frustrates me that...

..parents would let their kids do that and that it's available.

Suicidality is still high in young, gay teens.

Teenagers shouldn't be exposed to it.

They shouldn't be subjected, or it shouldn't be an option for them.

'After quitting the conversion courses,

'David accepted his homosexuality and is now able to live

'as an openly gay man.'

-Is your Angel here?

-I think I see them.

'Although none of his friends have tried to change,

'they do know how hard it can be to come out.'

Why does this therapy even exist in this day and age?

Do you think there's any place for it?

A lot of people who pursue conversion therapy, I imagine,

do so because they can't reconcile homosexuality with Scripture.

But then, there's also a lot of internalised homophobia,

and the need to want to feel accepted in society at large.

Sometimes people will go to great lengths to feel accepted

and the unfortunate thing is that

the person who you need the most acceptance from is yourself.

Coming out is a lot like a death in the family,

because the person that everybody sort of pictured you as,

this box that they put you in, is dead and gone

and they have to sort of recognise this real person -

who's really been there all along - is the real you.

I would imagine the pressure going in the other direction

is what drives a lot of people to try to change themselves,

cos it's experienced like a death by others.

It is my hope and I do believe that less and less people

will pursue conversion therapy, as society continues moving

in the direction of accepting homosexuality as equal to heterosexuality.

Less and less people will feel the need to try to "fix" themselves.

'It's been a few days since camp and I've come

'to Skyler's family home in Arizona to see how he's getting on.

'When I last saw him, he had high hopes that the therapy

'was going to help him overcome his gay feelings.'

What do you think you got from the camp, what's changed?

Definitely the relationship with my dad.

Obviously, that was a main concern of mine going into the weekend,

but because of that, I don't know, we kind of bonded and connected

on an emotional level we've never seen before.

-And you've got a girlfriend, haven't you?

-Yeah.

How long have you been with your girlfriend?

-It's only been like a month. But...

-Oh!

It's been very recent.

-And does she know about any of this?

-No.

I mean, I have like my core group of people that know,

and I feel like, as long as I have them

and I can get through it, then it doesn't need to be shared.

For me, personally, it's like,

I like girls, but then again, there's this attraction to guys.

-It's been like 60% girls, 40% guys...

-OK.

..if that makes sense.

-What does she look like?

-Do you want a picture?

Have you got a picture?!

-I do.

-Genius!

-She's gorgeous.

-She's gorgeous, is she?

-Yeah.

All right, Skyler!

-She's lovely!

-I think so.

"I hope this is for real, because I've definitely fallen for you."

And then you've put, "You don't have to hope,

"it is real and I've fallen..."

You two are killing me! "..and I have fallen so hard for you, too."

She's put, "Finally, how was it?"

-"It was fun," that was camp.

-Yeah.

"But I definitely missed you."

"I missed you. too. What did you guys do?"

"We camped, swam in a river, ate disgusting food and had a good time."

Oh, so you've put, "My dad and some of his co-workers."

I tried to keep it as contained and minimal as possible

with what I said.

And when she came over after camp, did your dad have to pretend

that you guys had gone on camp with co-workers, as well?

We planned the whole story in the car ride home,

so we had it set in stone, in case we ever had to say anything.

Really?

Is it going to be hard work?

It sounds like you are having to change yourself and make yourself

do things that you wouldn't necessarily have done before.

Is it worth it, is it right?

Yeah, I've been through a lot already,

and I kind of feel like it's just good to have to continue,

in order for me to come out as stronger.

Like, I'm totally willing to go through it,

if it means I'm going to be changed and everything.

It's...

It's not what I want. It almost kind of disgusts me a little bit.

Cos I don't want that, but I have those attractions, at the same time,

so it's just...

Yeah, it blows my mind that my mind could want one thing

and my heart another.

So, yeah, that's not the lifestyle I want to live. you know.

Are you all right? Cuddle.

It's just a bit confusing, isn't it?

-So confusing.

-You'll be all right.

Yeah, eventually.

You have to be proud of who you are and what you are.

-You're really cool.

-Thanks.

You're a really nice young lad. You just...

You have to let yourself be what you want to be and you will get there.

Those are my goals, yeah.

It must be so confusing, I can't even imagine.

Yeah, it's not as fun as it's cracked up to be.

'Skyler's dad found camp very emotional

'and I'm curious to know how his mum feels about the therapy.'

How have the last couple of weeks...?

I know you haven't known for very long.

Did you ever think that Skyler could be gay?

You know, there were little comments made that sometimes I'd go,

"That might be something someone would say if they were",

but at the same time, I would never have known that was a struggle.

You don't want your kids to hurt.

You want to fix their problems, you want to be like giving them

a Band-Aid or an ice cream cone or something that makes them happy,

so it's hard to watch, as they are older, to hurt.

That's really what the reaction is for me, "OK, now what?"

I can handle anything but him being gay.

I mean, if he's gay, that's going to be tough.

It's just the thought, for me, personally, is quite repulsive.

To try and think of having any kind of sexual relations

with a man instead of a woman just is unnatural and doesn't make sense to me.

There's a lot of controversy around gay conversion therapy.

Do you worry that Skyler's too young to deal with all of this?

I don't know, I don't think it's wrong for him to have it this early.

-I think it's wrong to not.

-Do you?

-Absolutely.

And to not provide...

Why not give somebody some clarity or some education, you know,

to make an educated decision,

rather than an emotional decision?

I'm thankful for it.

I think that, if not, I'd be worried about a son

that put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger.

I mean, he's already attempted suicide once before, so,

rather than getting him help, that's the answer?

Let him kill himself?

I think, from my understanding, from what I sort of took from

speaking to Floyd and other people involved in conversion therapy,

is there are lots of good things about the therapy - you know,

being able to speak to someone and open up

and tell them what's going on - that can only be a good thing,

I think, especially for someone like Skyler.

But the underlying feeling is that homosexuality can be...

..cured, it can be repaired, as if it's...

..something that needs to be repaired.

None of us would be around today if God intended it to be man with man.

Pure and simple. It wasn't Adam and Steve, it's Adam and Eve.

SHE LAUGHS

So, when God created man and woman, he didn't create two men,

and, you know, they're not made to birth.

'Skyler's parents' attitude to homosexuality is rooted

'in their conservative religious beliefs and I can't help feeling

'concerned about the pressure this may put on him.'

It's certainly very important that this issue,

with giving this kind of therapy to minors,

is seriously, seriously looked at, because...

..I think Skyler's so desperate to turn himself straight,

so desperate to get rid of these feelings that he says disgusts him,

if it doesn't work, like it doesn't for so many people,

that would worry me, that would make me...

..panic about the kind of state that Skyler could get himself into.

'My time here is coming to an end,

'but there is one more visit I need to make.

'I've come to LA to meet Joseph Nicolosi,

'a founder of gay conversion therapy.

'His books on the subject have been sold around the world

'and it was his teachings that Floyd turned to

'when he couldn't accept his own homosexuality.'

In your opinion, why are people gay?

We believe that people have same-sex attractions

because of childhood trauma, particularly attachment trauma.

The male homosexual is not bonded with the father,

the lesbian is not bonded with the mother

and they are seeking the same-sex activity as a way of connecting.

And what about gay people that will tell you,

"I've got a perfect relationship with my parents.

"My dad was spot-on, mum was great, everything ticked along nicely"?

I will tell you very clearly, over the many years of work

I've been doing, thousands of men, I have never met a homosexual

who had a loving, respectful relationship with his father.

-Really?

-Yes.

As much as you say there's no evidence to suggest there's

a gay gene or it's biological, you're born that way,

there's certainly no evidence to suggest what you're saying.

There is no gay gene. They have not discovered a gay gene.

-And so the evidence points to early childhood experiences.

-Some evidence.

There's evidence for both arguments.

Let me give you an example.

I met this young guy, 17, he's incredibly young,

he's got these feelings, he's so confused by them,

and he comes from a family and a background

that have always installed some level of homophobia,

whether they've done it blatantly or it's been kind of just trickling through.

I think that if you say heterosexuality is more normal

and natural, that it's more in fitting with nature,

that man is designed to be heterosexual,

that is not homophobia.

If a parent comes to me and says, "My son is showing indications

"of homosexuality, we would like whatever therapy is available

"to increase the probability of his being heterosexual",

that's not homophobia.

'I set out to discover whether it's possible to choose

'your sexuality and make yourself straight.

'I have my doubts, but along the way I've met people who believe

'that gay conversion therapy has helped them to live the life they want

'and are happy with the choice they've made.

'But what about the majority who don't get the result they want?

'I hate the thought that they could be left believing there is something wrong with them,

'something broken, that really can't be fixed.

'In the end, can they learn to just accept themselves

'and be proud of who they are?'

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