Episode 1 Stephen Fry: Out There

There are people who are so rabidly homophobic,

and I just find that fascinating.

It's as if you met someone who was absolutely....

Spent all their life, trying to get rid of red telephones.

You'd go... "What?!"

It... You know, you would not understand it.

Why would someone bother to attack a group of people

who mean, and do them no harm.

This is a series about gay people

and the trouble people have accepting them.

Over the last two years, when time allowed,

I travelled to meet some of the most notorious homophobes on the planet.

Signor. Stephen Fry.

To challenge their prejudice, and to find out where their hatred comes from.

Gay people, most of them, are lying about their problems.

You're really not making any sense, deputy. You really aren't.

Homosexuality is fantastic, you should try it.

I will arrest you. I will arrest you!

But when your penis is terrorising someone...

HE LAUGHS

But my penis doesn't do that!

I also had a chance to meet

some of the people who are victims of this prejudice,

as well as those fighting against it.

I never feel to sleep with a woman.

I say yuck!

I am born a queen.

Of course, this matters to me, because I'm gay.

But homophobia impacts on all of us.

It diminishes or humanity.

And you can find it all around the world.

This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting

Stephen, do you think we've arrived now, here in the UK,

in terms of gay rights?

In legal terms, I think we have.

But it's not a question just of laws,

it's a question of the outlook of the broader society.

Part of me wishes to bury myself under the blanket

and let someone else do any cheerleading for good causes.

It's nice to think one can just let the world get on with it,

and it's certainly not my job to push things down people's throat -

which is always the good gay joke people make.

One can't stand by and see injustice.

If there's another horrible case of a child hanging themselves

because they are being tormented,

then you have to speak out

and hope things get better.

Because there are certain things you can't control,

but there are the things where just quietly pushing on the door

you can make a difference.

By pecking on the wood you can eventually drill a hole.

It's incredible how much has changed for gay people

in Britain in my lifetime.

'It's only been legal for me to be gay since 1967...'

Those homophobes are wrong - you can have Adam and Steve!

Though I know it's Andy and Steve. You're Andy?

'..but even though gays are no longer criminals,

'and we have more rights than ever before, there are still

'some of you out there

'who will think what you're about to see is wrong.'

Are you nervous? Yes. Very. Very? Really? Yeah.

Some would say, the point about gay people is that they are bohemian,

they're outside the normal world of families and all that,

so why would you feel the need

to seal your relationship in a civil bond like this?

It's just the natural thing for us to do, isn't it?

It's the way we've been brought up.

I feel what we have, is what I've been shown love is

and what a marriage is, from my parents.

They treated each other with respect, they were partners, and that's what we are.

We just happen to be two men.

WOMAN'S VOICE: All straightforward? Good.

Excellent. Deep breath, lower the shoulders, smile...

and enjoy.

While England and Wales were slightly ahead of the game,

being gay was a crime in Scotland until 1980.

1982 in Northern Ireland.

The World Health Organisation regarded being gay

as a mental illness until 1992.

Everybody believes they live in a lifetime of extraordinary change,

but I feel I've got more reason to think it than most.

The idea of the seedy, dirty, filthy queer

firmly entrenched in one's mind as one grew up.

As soon as I realised that's that what I was,

which was very early with me,

it was naturally with a sense of foreboding that I anticipated adulthood.

Is there any one present who knows of any lawful reason

why Andrew and Stephen may not form their civil partnership this afternoon?

Splendid!

LAUGHTER

To go from that situation to this amazing day like today,

when you see a gay couple getting a civil partnership

with the full blessing of the law and the charm and warmth of the registrars

and the easy-going nature of the entire event,

that's a very profound thing I think.

I give you this ring... I give you this ring...

..as a token of my love... ..as a token of my love...

..and a sign of the promises... ..and a sign of the promises...

..I make to you today. ..I make to you today.

GUESTS CLAP

I can't help it.

When you see this sort of ceremony

after the hundreds of years of prejudice and hatred that went before, it's just...

It's happiness, really.

CHEERING

Yes, I always cry at weddings anyway.

And you just realise how far we've travelled,

and it's incredibly touching.

Makes one very proud to live in a time when this is finally possible.

It seems to be that the world is going in two directions at once.

The enemies of enlightened thinking, open thinking, free thinking,

free action, free thought... are many.

And gay people, while we certainly should celebrate days like this -

we should be aware, we should be cautious,

we should always be on our guard.

You know, that somebody out there hates us.

The fear that people hate us makes coming out difficult.

For me, as a teenager in the 1970s,

it was a terrifying prospect

because there was still so much shame attached to being gay.

But then, in '76, something inspiring happened.

One of the most famous and successful pop stars on the planet,

risked it all by going public

and saying there was nothing wrong with going to bed

with someone of your own sex.

It was a game-changing moment for me

and countless other gay teens

who had locked ourselves away in the closet.

Well, hello! Hello.

Welcome. Thank you so much.

Nice to see you. Wonderful to see you.

Come in. Thank you.

Come on, you.

How early on did you realise you were not as other girls, as I like to put it.

Erm...it took quite a while.

I grew up in the '50s when nobody talked about sex.

And the first time I had sex was when I was 23. Really?

With anybody! Yeah. And it was a man.

The thing was, I thought everybody in the industry knew.

And when it came out, and it was the cover of Rolling Stone,

it really didn't hurt my career that much at all.

Some people burnt my records...

but it wasn't really... There was no seismic shift.

So, you were mutually drawn.

Did you have a boyfriend at the time? Had you had a boyfriend?

No, Elton is my first real relationship.

The first six months, we took it very slowly, and very carefully.

I had to come out to my family.

I had to go home at Christmas and say,

"I'm gay, and I am in a relationship with Elton John."

Which is coming out like an Exocet missile!

Wallop!

Your relationship was blossoming, until the point...

that civil marriages became...

Civil partnerships, I should say.

..became possible and you were the first notable couple to have one.

We did it on the first day we could - 21 December.

We did it really to make a political statement.

But the actual service, and the actual occasion,

was so moving that it really changed our relationship.

We did it for symbolic reasons, and then had this tremendous sense of contentment afterwards.

Now that we've taken on the responsibility

of raising a child together, um,

I couldn't feel any closer to Elton than I feel right now.

There are those in the public eye who have said that, you know,

a true family should be a man and woman and a child

as in the usual, conventional way.

That I don't agree with, at all. No.

You can't get everyone on your side. And we don't need...

We just want to be good parents, and prove people wrong.

And I think we will. But you can't stop that kind of stuff.

That's right. It's all about equality.

I think everybody in life deserves to be treated equally,

regardless of who they are, or what they are,

who they love, or where they come from -

age, colour, sexuality, sex.

And, indeed, I would say with absolute assurance

that there are in Britain alone, many, many, many gay couples

and gay individuals who feel probably validated by your status.

For all kinds of reasons - the dignity, the obvious authenticity,

and the fact that you speak out, both of you,

has done a lot for individuals.

While Elton and David have done much to encourage

a change in attitude towards gay people here,

I am keen to know more about what it means to be gay

elsewhere in the world.

Today, 40 years on from the very first Gay Pride march in Britain,

London is hosting World Pride.

And the gay community here

has joined forces with gay men and women from all around the planet,

to show that the fight for gay equality is now a global one.

Here we are on the corner of Baker Street and Oxford Street -

taken over by a group of people whose rights have advanced

enormously over the past 40 years since this began,

but we must never forget rights can be taken away

as easily as they can be given

and there are people out there who are filled with hate

for who we are.

And we have to be out there to show them we're proud of who we are,

and that's why it's called Pride.

You look superb.

Thank you very much.

You must envy my body enormously. I do.

In fact, I always wear a tux in your honour.

Have a great day. You, too.

So, have you come all the way from Sri Lanka to be here? Yes.

From a country that criminalises us for being gay

with 12 years in jail. 12 years in jail?

And we are living with the remnants of British laws

that have not been taken away from us.

Laws criminalising homosexuality never existed around the world

until the British imposed it on them.

Yes. Please take back what you gave us.

We don't want it any more! Yes!

Of the 84 countries that still criminalise homosexuality,

roughly half are ex-British colonies using old British laws.

Though none of these are among the five that currently

put gay people to death.

This is Iran.

These are some boys being hanged by the neck

till they are dead, in the usual way.

A sort of mass hanging,

again for the crime of apparently having slept with each other.

It's the supreme expression of homophobia.

If anti-Semitism can lead to Auschwitz,

homophobia leads to this.

The sheer...

Although it sounds like political correctness,

moaning about playground taunting,

and saying that it's important that we show respect,

this is why.

Because if you let words and insults go by unchallenged,

if you don't allow the dignity of gay people,

then slowly those will be given freer and freer rein

to do what they wish.

I don't know what I can do.

I can't go to Iran.

The BBC have advised that it would not be safe or sensible for me to do so.

We wanted to film in Turkey, actually

where we'd heard of a couple of Iranians who'd taken refuge there,

but even Turkey, which is more or less a democracy,

denied us the right to film.

They said, "Why would you want a film about homosexuality?"

"What a peculiar subject."

So, instead I'm going to talk to someone who comes from Iran

and is here seeking asylum,

terrified of going back home where he may well be killed.

Three such hangings are to have reported to have taken place in the last year.

But it's almost impossible to find anyone brave enough

to talk about being gay in Iran.

Farshad has agreed to meet me

to tell his story of how loving someone

could have cost him his life.

I had a boyfriend, but his father was a very, very horrible man.

And we had a relationship for four years.

And his father claimed of course that, me, I raped his son,

my boyfriend if he said, "It wasn't rape," he will be guilty.

I see, because then he would admit that he'd been...

Yeah. Yeah.

And so he said, "Yes, it was rape."

So that's when you escaped? And you miss him still?

Lots. He's fine at the moment, he has to stay home all the time

and his father locks the door. Jesus.

He can't leave the home. And he's tried to...

His father says he has to marry with some girl.

And there's no chance of him escaping Iran to come

and join you in England? Oh, that's terrible.

And you've been here for three years now? Yeah.

And has the Home Office granted you asylum as a refugee?

When my case worker asked me about my case, they don't believe me,

that I'm gay.

And they told me,

"If you are gay, you need good, good evidence that you are gay."

That's a bizarre state of affairs,

because they must recognise that if you went back to Iran,

your life would be in danger or certainly your liberty.

If they want to turn back to Iran, there is no any way,

I've been thinking about suicide and I will kill myself,

because it's better than hanging.

Yes. I choose this way. Quite. It's your choice. It's my choice.

If the British government sends you back to Iran

and the worst happened and you were hanged, it would be a

crime that would be on the head of every one of my countrymen.

And it would shame me.

You can be aware of the wider politics, the theology,

it's only when you meet someone who is a victim of this,

of those extraordinary skewed moralities and the cruelty

and barbarity of the system that's in place in Iran

that it touches you truly deeply.

I think Farshad is an extremely brave man to talk to me

on camera about his experience.

It's the most idiotic, the most ironic,

the most stupid human quality you can have,

that love is the thing that

tears people from their homeland, from their families,

threatens their lives, makes them outcasts from their own people.

Love, the greatest force we have,

the thing that will mend us all in the end,

it's just... It's criminal, it's very, very upsetting indeed.

For me, it's not enough that my country

might offer sanctuary to gay people,

persecuted by their own governments.

I'd like to talk to some of these tyrants,

to hear how they try to justify themselves and their prejudices.

I'm starting in Uganda, a country that seems to be going backwards

in its treatment of gay people.

Since 2009, its government has been considering passing a new law

which proposes a death penalty for homosexuals.

It's ignited a wave of anti-gay feeling

and made homosexuality a hot topic here.

I've been invited by Kampala's most popular radio breakfast show host

to debate the issue.

Stephen Fry here to see Fatboy. Fatboy?

Fatboy? Fatboy. How nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

Hi, good morning, Denise. Denise, lovely to meet you.

Mr Fry? Yes. How are you?

'And I can't deny I'm feeling a bit nervous about meeting my opponent

'in the debate who'd probably prefer if me and my kind were behind bars.'

Welcome to Sanyu Breakfast, Stephen Fry.

Thank you Fatboy, it's lovely to be here.

Yeah. Also joining us, we're joined by Pastor Male of Arising for Christ Ministries,

he almost needs no introduction, you know him,

he's out there very aggressively fighting against the many evils

that plague our society, is that correct? True.

'In a climate where the size of a church congregation equates

'to its wealth and power, taking a harsh and even graphic view

'on homosexuality is a sure-fire way to appear relevant.'

Let me start by being very, very clear.

Each and every people deserve to be permitted to pursue their destiny.

Unfortunately, when we got independence,

we somehow, along the way, lost our values.

But if someone is truly traditional,

like, for instance, a man marrying a woman

and a woman getting married to a man and sexual intercourse, the value

is of good character where you are honest, where you can be trusted.

Let's not pretend those values came from missionaries wearing

black coats who arrived all the way from Britain and from France

and from America and they brought you a Bible. Even before they...

It was nothing to do with your culture. ..we had values as Uganda.

As all peoples do, we all have those values and gay people have them too.

I've come out to tell my brothers, my sisters,

my children what you are indulging in is hurting your life.

I've counselled victims who have urinary tract infections,

those who have had their penises operated.

I've had those who have been condemned,

their bowels are condemned,

like this young man here. He has been condemned.

I've never heard of any of these preposterous physical prolapses

you've spoken about. They just don't exist.

That is the funniest headline I have ever seen. I have to read it out -

"How Bum-shafting Shattered My Whopper."

FATBOY LAUGHS

Where would a man like this one get...

You don't need to go into details.

..get a spare penis, get a spare rectum and anus?

When we get back, we'll be taking...

Pastor Male, we have to take a break,

when we get back, we'll be taking phone calls. Stay tuned.

Let's not discuss anatomy. Sorry, OK.

But for me, that's why I came out.

So, we compromise somewhere in the middle.

Oh, we're having a good time. Hmm(!)

FATBOY LAUGHS

My name is Fatboy, here with Shan, hoping you're enjoying

the conversation we're having this morning.

Well, so, how did you think that went? To me, it was fine. Yeah.

Nothing bad is talked about, homosexuality. Very little.

But the bulk of it, the erotic experience,

when you're getting anal sex.

But when you start talking to them,

you hear very, very sad, painful stories.

Young girls who have had what I call urinary incontinence. Yes.

Bladders have been damaged, because they use all sorts of gadgets

including dildos, including carrots and look at the penis

penetrating the anus, where it was never meant to penetrate.

But why, why are you concentrating on homosexuals then?

Because most sodomy, most anal intercourse,

takes place between men and women.

It doesn't matter. Homosexuality is not a person, it is the act.

There's nothing like someone was born a gay,

someone was born a lesbian.

But I was born different. You were born with a penis.

Yes(?) And a woman is born with a vagina. Yes(?)

The penis is supposed to penetrate the vagina, not the anus.

So you say. It's simply perversion and foolishness.

You're obsessed with anuses, I'm not interested in anuses.

No, no, no, I am telling you, Fry...

But you're obsessed with anuses. I'm not interested in anuses,

I'm interested in men I fall in love with. When you say...

And not with anuses. Can't you understand it's about love?

No, no, no... You are so base and materialistic. It's not love.

It is love. When your penis is terrorising someone...

My penis doesn't do that.

I'm not interested in sodomy and buggery.

No, no, no... I am not interested, so forget about it. Fry, Fry...

You're just so perverted, all you care about is penises

and vaginas and anuses. Can you listen to me? You're so sick.

Can you listen to me? I have been and it's been a real lesson. You say you were born gay? Yeah.

You say you were born gay? Yeah.

Were you able to recognise that on the day you were born?

Of course I didn't, that's a joke.

Now, why are you lying that you were born gay. I wasn't... Oh!

When did you first have homosexual intercourse?

I've never had it. In your life? Never. Most gays don't.

You're obsessed with it, that's what I keep telling you.

All you can think of is anal sex. So you never... I'm not interested.

Wait, wait, wait, you've never had a partner? Yes.

But, we use fellatio and mutual masturbation

and intercrural sex such as the Greeks did.

But not penetrating the arsehole. No, no, but...

You're the one who's obsessed with penetrating the arsehole.

Your obsession with sodomy, it says something very peculiar about you,

if I may say so. It's quite extraordinary. No, but...

The most peculiar thing.

You are not using your penis the way you should have used it.

Oh, it's not up to you to tell me how to use my penis.

My penis is there to give me pleasure.

Under the cloak of caring,

you designated homosexuality to be a vicious, perverted disease

that causes all kinds of bizarre anal and vaginal and penile...

No, no, no... You have... Homosexuality is not a disease.

It's not a disease. It's an addiction.

There's a difference between a disease... OK.

..you learn it and then you get addicted to it.

I know what these people do. "These people"? "These people"?

Yeah, they are homosexuals. Oh, you are so...

'Male's attitude towards gay people makes the prospect of a law

'that would execute us chillingly real.

'But it's reassuring to find that some Ugandans

'have a different take on the issue.'

You are very hostile, Pastor. No, no, no.

Phew.

Well, Fatboy, I don't know how you thought that went. How did that go?

Interesting, I think is the word.

You must, I'm assuming, know some gay people?

I know many. Yeah.

My own position, Stephen, is actually that I want the deal to pass.

Because it's so ridiculous, you mean? Yeah. Yeah.

That's interesting. And it's going to achieve the opposite effect.

You see, if it ever were to pass, it would simply be unenforceable.

If it were ever brought before the courts, chances are it would

be challenged and the law would be at high risk of being repealed even.

Yes. And so I actually want it to pass for that reason.

That's very good thinking, I like that. I like that.

And they'll have to contend with the fact that "OK, no matter

"what legal measures we take,

"it looks like these people will always be here." Yeah.

And most people are just going to be like, "OK, you know what?

"Let's just move on, there's other things to think about in life." Yeah.

Well, it's wonderful to talk to you and get some clear light on this.

What you've told me has taken the slightly sour taste

out of my mouth after dear Pastor Male.

It would be easy to write off Male as some sort of fanatic.

But preaching that homosexuality is a curable dysfunction

has dangerous consequences.

I'm on my way to meet Stosh Mugisha,

a lesbian who was raped when she was just 14 by a farmhand

who believed that this would cure her.

It's a phenomenon known as corrective rape.

And it's affecting lesbians all across Africa.

Stosh is one of the few brave enough to share her story.

There was a man who used to work at home driving tractors.

He would find me touching girls' pussies and all that and,

"I want to show you how to play with boys."

And then this guy grabs me when I was putting on shorts and...

he tore it and he penetrated me with his penis.

And he didn't take long, this guy just got out of me

and I was bleeding and I just cried and this guy kept telling me,

"that's how you have to play with boys," and all that.

I was sad and I don't know what happened later,

but I found myself sleeping and crying in my sleep.

When my grandmum came around, I told her, "Saddam forced me..."

he was called Saddam, "..forced me to thrust his penis into me."

"But you always play with them, football."

"You chose to..." And they left it just like that.

It even got worse later,

when they discovered I was pregnant.

So this one single rape... Yes. ..made you pregnant? Yes.

I didn't even know the word rape back then.

Really? So, they took me to the hospital, they injected me.

So they forced an abortion on you? Yes. 1996.

Went for a checkup and I found I was positive with HIV and AIDS.

And this is the only sexual act that could have possibly... Yes.

The only thing that could have given it to you

was this single, brief, hideous rape... Yes.

..when you were young girl of 14? Yeah.

You know, I had nothing, I had no say. I couldn't say anything.

I couldn't... But it kept on, you know, hurting me. Of course.

These people really think that I could just lie there,

I had never met a man, I'd never slept with a man. I'm sorry, sorry.

No, please don't be sorry.

I'm telling you the truth, I tried so hard to commit suicide.

I'm not surprised. Because...

..there are very, very many things I wasn't aware of,

but I knew that someone can kill themselves.

Your life encapsulates almost every detail

of the gay experience in Uganda,

but you are a shining example and an amazing inspiration.

And I hope anybody watching this will be as taken with you

and as fond of you as I've become very quickly.

How traumatised would a child be to be raped,

in order to cure them of their inner feelings?

Which is just insane and makes no sense whatsoever.

And in that act, impregnates her with a child and with HIV.

It's almost beyond the realms of the gloomiest fiction you could imagine.

To meet someone who can live through it is really extraordinary.

This is where the grotesque figures like Pastor Male

stop being funny, because it's their rhetoric that builds up

to this kind of thing, it really is.

Right now, HIV rates are soaring all across Uganda,

but the mind-boggling thing about the proposed anti-homosexuality

bill is that gay people are now afraid to ask for treatment.

A gay support group called Ice Breakers has had to

step into the breach and open a clinic.

But in doing so, it has attracted the wrath of a senior

government minister who is behaving as if the bill is already law.

"The Minister for Ethics and Integrity" - that is

Ethics and Integrity - "Simon Lokodo,

"said he intends to investigate the clinic for promoting homosexuality.

" 'If we find out that it is the clinic related to promoting

" 'a culture which does not conform to our morals as a country,

" 'we shall instantly ban and close it,' he told IRIN PlusNews.

" 'These people, LGBTI, are doing their operations undercover.

" 'It is not easy to track them, however,

" 'we shall not allow any social gathering, association,

" 'infrastructure or any activities that exist to promote

" 'homosexuality,' he said."

It seems such a pity.

Lokodo has agreed to meet me before I leave Uganda,

and I will be keen to challenge him about his behaviour, including

his threat to jail people who don't report gays to the authorities.

In this sort of climate, it is little wonder that

Ice Breakers' whereabouts is a closely-guarded secret.

There they are, do you see them? The suits. Turn right in here.

Security clearly matters.

Hey! Hi, Stephen. Hello, how are you?

How nice to see you. Nice to see you. This is your clinic?

This is Ice Breakers. We have the clinic, everything all in one.

And I notice you've got this gate and it is secret, basically,

try not to let the government know about it.

There is no poster, everyone thinks it is just a home.

So you rely on a network of LGBTI people to

inform each other that there is this place if they want rapid

testing or advice on sexual health and things like that.

Yes, it is a network, it is kind of underground

but everyone knows exactly where to find us.

The bill, as it stands, you have 24 hours to report somebody

being gay, and if you don't you can have a huge fine or imprisonment.

If this got passed into law,

you would apparently be breaking the law.

It has become a challenge to us,

because if they say it is a law for me to go and report that this

one is a homosexual, that means they have to change our laws.

As a medical practitioner, you have taken the oath.

We have to keep confidentiality of each and every one.

I was reading a quotation from

Lokodo, The Minister of Integrity and Ethics, in big inverted

commas, and he said he had heard of you and he thought you were

there to promote homosexuality, and his intention was to close you down.

Yes. We don't think they'll really come out,

because there is nothing illegal we are doing,

but maybe just to prove a point of defiance, they can come and raid us.

We can't resist them because they are more powerful than us.

Soon they'll get tired of clamping down on us. We aren't going to stop.

It is fantastically brave. We won't stop.

While the health aspect of Ice Breakers' work

has become increasingly crucial, its other function

as a safe space for young gay people is now more important than ever.

You feel accepted, it's safe, you can be yourself, you can

talk about your relationship, how you feel, talk about the way we dress.

Yes. You know?

They say it's what we do with our community of telling them

about HIV and all that, we really still come here

because we feel safe, we feel accepted here.

In this...environment.

What's so revealing is that the insane homophobia,

the people who drafted this bill, convinced that everywhere is

a conspiracy of erotic orgy, and in fact, what you do is

talk about friendship, feelings, and love, fashion, gossip. You know?

It's not about sex, I don't know why they're so obsessed with it.

They are not ignorant, they know perfectly well that

gay people pose no threat to the children and families of Uganda.

They know perfectly well that gay people don't recruit.

So they are deliberately telling lies to make themselves popular

and to make their voices loud.

Exactly. It keeps them going, it keeps their business thriving.

Shameful. Truly shameful.

I have to admit,

I'm slightly dreading my meeting with Simon Lokodo,

the former Catholic priest who is now Uganda's Minister for Ethics and

Integrity, and hellbent on crushing his country's gay community.

Who knows where I'm to go?

I shall try and be civil.

I'd like to find out how he could possibly support this

barbaric bill, but I'm not sure he will take to explaining

himself to a gay Western liberal like me. How do you do? Good.

How do you do? Good. My name is Stephen. Hello, Stephen.

I've come with the BBC.

I want to tell you, point blank, that there is no way you can

impose your attitude to me. I don't want to. I'm asking questions.

I am a typical Ugandan, and my role and mandate here is to

empower Ugandans to uphold the moral values and principles.

And we don't discriminate, however, we say, please, please, it is

already bad that you are in that status.

Don't promote, don't recruit,

don't encourage others to come into your very unfortunate state.

This is what is unique in Uganda,

this extraordinary idea of yours of promotion.

All my life, I was subjected to indoctrination of how to be

heterosexual. It never worked on me. If you're born that way...

What I'm telling you... You're born gay or you're born straight.

Just let people be! You're taking me for one who should come to join you.

No, I don't want you to join me! I have no wish for you to join me.

In this country,

anybody who manifests themselves gay must be checked.

I don't want one more homosexual in the world, I just want each

one to be treated with love and dignity.

Not with hatred, not with raids, accusing them of recruiting

and accusing them of recruiting children.

What are the values that we get from homosexuality? What do you get?

A life from Christianity? Love. Love?

When you destroy the back of your brother? Destroy the what?!

The back of your brother. The back?

Yes, I've got my dear brothers who have come here

because their backs are oozing with pus.

STEPHEN LAUGHS

Most sodomy takes place in heterosexual life!

That is in Europe. No, all around the world. In Africa, never.

There's no rape in Africa, is there?

No young girls being raped in Africa? There are thousands of them.

So surely heterosexuality is far more dangerous to children

than homosexuality, far more.

It's a country where heterosexual rape is almost endemic.

I say let them do it, but... Oh, let them do it?!

Let them do it the right way.

Let them do it the right way?! Let them rape children the right way?

What are you talking about?!

No! I'm saying, at least it is natural way of desiring sex.

Oh, that's OK then. No!

For two men who wish,

who consent to have sex together in private is bad, but it's

OK for a man to rape a woman because at least it is the right way.

You're giving two comparisons which don't meet.

Those comparisons don't compare at all.

That's what you said to me. You said, "Let them do it the right way."

But what I'm telling you is, it is

not permissible in Uganda for single sex relationships, finished.

And if you are advocating that, I'm sorry,

I will treat you as a destructor of Uganda's ideologies.

Homosexuality is fantastic, you should try it. It's really good fun.

I will arrest you. I will arrest you. I am the law here.

I'm not having sex with people. I wouldn't want someone who wasn't gay not to have it,

but if you are, it is wonderful.

Thank you. I hope everything goes well for Uganda. OK, thank you.

But for the gays, will you stay away from us?

Well, that was lively.

He regards my view as an imposition on his country, and in a sense,

he is absolutely right, if he wants to look at it like that.

Taking a more international, cosmopolitan approach

in terms of international human rights, I think I'm right.

He did wind me up, of course he did, because he's an idiot. You know?

This idea that we recruit and promote, it is the only one

they can use to convince the ignorant that somehow

homosexuals are a threat, because there is no other way they are.

It's just so dishonest, so wrong.

I'm none the wiser as to what is really behind Lokodo's

hatred of gay people.

He just kept repeating his mantra about promotion and recruitment

as if being gay is something you can talk people into or out of.

Perversely, the philosophy that underpins this twisted idea

comes from the land that gave birth to gay liberation,

and that's where I'm heading now.

America is the home of reparative therapy,

a therapy that claims it can change people from gay to straight

through a series of sessions costing $140 a pop.

Its most prominent practitioner, Joseph Nicolosi, is based here in LA, and I wanted

to meet one of his patients, who had managed to reverse his sexuality.

I was home one weekend,

and I said, "I am but I don't want to be homosexual." Yeah.

And how did you respond to that? My heart broke.

Because I knew his life would be more difficult than

I would want for my child. Yes. I begged God to make me straight.

I would serve him for the rest of my life if he took these

homosexual attractions away from me, and it never did anything.

I felt as though I had been a good Christian, and I'd been

faithful and it had not worked, so I needed to try something different.

That was reparative therapy.

I eventually came upon Dr Nicolosi's book in my university library,

and basically sat down, read the whole thing in one sitting.

I hadn't heard of Nicolosi, I knew nothing about reparative therapy.

But I had such respect for Daniel and who he was,

that that's what he needed to do.

I would support him.

Presumably, he's trying to prepare you for a moment

when you're walking on the street, and there is a guy,

and he gives you a set of tools, apparently, to deal with that. Yes.

You would ask yourself,

what characteristic of that guy do I find most attractive?

And you take those characteristics and say, well,

what internal faults in myself do those represent?

What you're seeing is a mirror of the things you lack. Yes.

And for how long did you see him? How many sessions?

Was it every couple of years?

From start to finish, it was about a year and a half.

Are you now in a state where you're actually happy with who you are?

Yes. Since then, I've been satisfied with my sexuality.

Well, I'm off to see Dr Joseph Nicolosi, who is the director,

I believe, of the St Thomas Aquinas clinic.

One of the founding members of NARTH, which is the

National Association for Research and Therapy for Homosexuality.

He uses the rather confusing phrase,

"gay people can come out of their homosexuality."

They can come out of their coming out.

Naturally, I'm not disposed to favour him,

but I'm going to let him see what he has to say and listen to it,

and I'm not here to have a fight.

It's really just to see

whether he thinks there is something scientific underlying his work.

Hello. Hi, I'm Stephen Fry from the BBC. I'm here to see Dr Nicolosi.

Thank you very much.

Hi, how are you? Dr Nicolosi, hello. Stephen Fry. Nice to meet you.

Thank you very much.

Come on in. What a gorgeous view you have, it is almost unbelievable.

Thank you. You can sit on the right here. Super.

It's nice to be here. Good to have you here.

You offer a practice which heals, reverses,

I'd like to know the vocabulary you prefer to describe the work you do.

Yes. Resolves. Resolves.

We resolve the conflicts that are behind the homosexual

attractions, that's what we do. Right.

You're pretty much of the opinion, I assume therefore,

that homosexuality is a nurture.

That's right. We believe it's based on trauma.

You're really going to have to look hard to find a trauma.

It's an accusation of some sort of parental going-wrong.

That's what we believe. We believe it's about the parents.

The boy does not disidentify with the mother

and does not bond with the father.

We don't believe he was born gay.

If, tomorrow, a gay gene is discovered, you're going

to feel a bit silly, aren't you? No, I won't feel silly at all.

They will still have to explain all the homosexuals that were

successfully treated.

Would you say that you have a kind of percentage that you can

demonstrate of success and failure rate?

We say a third, a third, a third.

A third, no change, a third, significant improvement,

a third, cure.

Is there an age at which...

We are getting more and more teenagers, adolescents.

I would say about 60% of clients are teenagers.

Parents call up in a panic

because they found out their son is looking at gay porn.

And of course, we have to get him into therapy.

The momentum and the enthusiasm of the gay movement sometimes

sweeps up young adolescents into that identity when it's premature.

Imagine I'm coming to see you to explore the possibility that

I might find my inner straight person, if there is such a being.

How would you begin? What is the therapeutic process?

Many of these clients are able to trace their traumatic origins

back to the father.

My father never cared about me, my father never loved me,

he never seemed interested in me, I was trying to get the three As.

Attention, affection, approval.

Right. And those emotional needs became sexualised.

The thing that puzzles me, because I can't picture it in myself is, when

you close your eyes and masturbate, what images come into your head?

Are you saying you can actually reprogram that?

Because that is basically, what gives you an erection,

what excites you. Yes. Exactly.

That's exactly the reparative therapy.

We will say to them,

for example, have you ever had heterosexual attraction? Yes.

"Well, when I was 13 years old, there was this little girl at school."

Can you feel a little something? Good. Triangle of containment.

Hold the picture of that girl, stay with your body,

stay connected to me. Stay with it.

I did a telephone session with a 17-year-old boy.

He says, "I now look at gay porn, I cannot get aroused."

"I cannot get aroused." Right. Right, what?

That means the therapy is working. Clearly, yes.

I'm also interested in the phenomenon that has become

known in the last 20 years as metrosexual,

and without being the least bit offensive,

I'd say you fit that rather well, you're very well groomed,

you look, I mean, you could easily pass as a gay man.

For all his talk of success,

Nicolosi is unable to find ONE of his ex-gays to talk to us.

Dan Gonzales is actually not one of his success stories,

and these days, is a confirmed ex-ex-gay.

He and his mother Carol now campaign against the dangers

of reparative therapy.

You take the people who are on the posters for ex-gay programs,

and not even they will tell you that they are 100% straight.

They give you these bizarre,

convoluted answers about how they love women, love their wife

but are not physically attracted to a woman walking down the street.

You get these bizarre answers. That is not heterosexuality.

And not to mention damaging.

Because every time you feel attracted to someone, that is

supposedly a reminder of how you are broken.

And what it doesn't cover, for me,

and for most gay people I know, ultimately, being gay,

like any other part of being human, is about love.

Was that ever addressed? The nature of love?

Or was it always about sexual attraction

and how you get rid of that?

It was always just about sexual attraction, how you get rid of that.

I came to the point where I realised there was nothing wrong with it,

and I didn't need to change and I couldn't change.

Did that mean also that you had to abandon your faith?

I had to abandon my faith. Right.

Can I ask, on personal matters, have you had a partner,

do you have a partner?

I'm single at the moment, but I have dated and had boyfriends, yes.

Nice boys? You liked them? Oh, yes! Dan has good taste. I'm sure he does.

I'm sure he does!

What is your feeling, all told, Carol, would you say,

about Dr Nicolosi and his programme?

I think he should be ashamed of himself. Right.

I can see you are angry.

Reparative therapy makes the assumption that being gay

is a problem for which families are somehow to blame.

But, for me, this is an argument that just doesn't add up.

I have two parents whom I completely adore,

my mother is the warmest, loveliest,

kindest person in the world, my father is equally wonderful.

Although, I will confess, he was, I felt, very cold towards me and

my brother, incidentally, when we were young, and I was scared of him.

So in that sense, yes, he's on the money,

I had that kind of father, but so did my brother, you know?

It's just not good enough. And I don't think it really matters.

I think the point is that if there is a problem,

it is with society, because that is the reason

gay people are afraid to come out,

it's the reason reparative therapy can exist,

is because there is a culture, or there is a worldview, or there is

a religious doctrine out there which speaks in a strong voice to condemn.

And young people are very vulnerable.

I have no sympathy with gay people who tell a 14-year-old

they are gay and must accept it, but I have no sympathy with one

who tells a 14-year-old that they are not gay and they must accept it.

It is bad enough being adolescent most of the time, than to

have interested parties from either group trying to recruit you.

I couldn't leave Hollywood without some exploration

of how the movie capital of the world deals with homosexuality.

We've all heard the rumours about A-list stars hiding in the

closet, but would actors really feel the need to do that nowadays?

There's always a big question in people's minds -

if you're a male gay actor and you come out

does it reduce the number of parts you can play, does it mean

you can only suddenly play the camp best friend or some sort of villain?

Can you play a romantic lead, can you have a full career?

Is it fair to ask gay actors to have to come out?

Are they hypocrites for hiding their sexuality?

I don't know. I'd be anxious to find out.

# The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain

# I think she's got it... #

Maybe hiding your sexuality is warranted in Hollywood

because the audience wants to believe

that the romantic lead or action hero is the real straight deal.

# Now, once again - where does it rain?

# On the plain, on the plain... #

'I'm on my way to meet a man who helps actors hide

'the telltale signs of a gay sexuality.'

Hello. Hello. How are you?

'But I'm most curious to know about the psychological impact of a life spent peeking out of the closet.'

One of the things I know you do, which is fascinating,

is that you help actors who feel that their voices are

as it were perhaps a little too camp,

and they feel that's holding them back in terms of the amount of work they can get.

Well, you know, sometimes they come on their own,

sometimes it's a producer, agents, managers -

"We're not getting the jobs that we think we should get..." Right.

It's just like teaching an accent.

It doesn't really change who YOU are -

if everybody THINKS that you're Southern,

that means you did a good job, it doesn't mean you're Southern.

'Today, Bob is seeing a new client called David Ross,

'a former member of British boy band Bad Boys Inc,

'who's now trying to carve a career in Hollywood.'

Tell me what you'd like me to help you with.

Erm, I think the main thing that I have going on is that I, erm...

I'm constantly self-monitoring,

and I really thought that it was to do with my career and being in a band - I used to be in a boy band

and was told that I couldn't act a certain way or talk a certain way.

What did they say, you can't do what?

Oh, God, I couldn't walk down certain streets, I couldn't flick my hair a certain way,

I couldn't, erm... Obviously couldn't talk about certain things.

So tell me what you'd like me to help you with.

Erm... Just being so self-conscious. I mean, obviously there's an element of self-consciousness to being

an actor and being a performer, but, you know, if I cross my legs

is that too English, or is that gay? I don't know.

I can cross my legs like this, or shall I cross my legs like this?

Well, what do you think? I think it should be like this.

I should at least sit like this. Why would it be better that way?

Just so you seem more straight, which seems ridiculous.

Well, you don't seem particularly effeminate. I don't see a big physical problem.

I mean, I know it's easier to say than to do,

but I think you need to come to peace.

You were a member of a boy band, managed by someone who obviously didn't want you to come out,

didn't want... You had girl fans, and you were a huge success.

And I think it's the residue of that that you've still got with your acting, isn't it?

Oh, absolutely. It's what comes with being in the public eye, and being in the closet.

You just felt fake all the time.

It's fascinating. And I feel very honoured that you've come and been on camera

talking about this to us, because that in a kind of way IS coming out.

HE LAUGHS There's no going back in!

Well, good - well, then, go for it. Yeah.

Go for it, because listen, there are gay actors all over town that are working.

While Bob's probably right, I think many of these actors are still choosing to live in the closet.

But there is an actor in this town whose coming out could be a sign

that things are changing in Hollywood.

Neil Patrick Harris now lives an openly gay life with his partner and their surrogate twins.

Yet in How I Met Your Mother, he continues to play perhaps

the straightest and most prolific womaniser on American television.

Well, Neil, people of my generation remember you very well

as a child actor, you played Doogie Howser, MD, this prodigy

which you kind of WERE a prodigy, because you sing, you dance, you act...

Had you thought through the idea

when you did come out that it might affect your career adversely,

and that maybe you might not have the full range of roles available for you?

It would be idiotic of me to say that that hadn't crossed my mind or wasn't a concern.

If you're on a TV show, or an action hero in a movie,

people with billions of dollars are hoping that

it catches on in a way that makes them billions of more dollars, and so they are cautious,

and I get that. So yes, if you're super-campy and fey and effete and

want to play the football quarterback...

It's not going to happen. ..I can see you getting upset that

you're not getting cast in those parts and it's probably because you're gay.

So you as it were got away with it being

almost a yawn from the public rather than a kind of shock,

which must have been a relief I should imagine. Very much so,

I was anticipating outrage, and in turn I got indifference.

I was like, "Wait a second! Didn't you hear?"

So, I suppose all eyes are on you in a way

because of the fact that you seem to be breaking this image people have

that gay actors can't play straight - you've not only done it once

but you've got more films coming out in which you're doing it again.

So, you know, are you conscious of this, do you think you might be changing the world?

At the end of the day, if the things that I've currently been in

and are about to come out make a lot of money,

then all of a sudden it'll look like I'm this gay actor that can

play straight roles and I'm suddenly like, that guy -

but if one of the movies flops

then all of a sudden it looks like, "Oh, see..."

I like to give people more credit than to think that

they're just going to watch me and think about...sodomy.

I hope I can amuse people more than that!

STEPHEN LAUGHS Let's hope.

But I'm not in control of those kind of things.

Neil's optimism about the movie-going public

is encouraging, and I guess with his films

due for release in the coming year, we'll soon learn if the world's

ready for an openly gay actor in the role of a straight leading man.

How we react to the films may also tell us

something of how society as a whole sees its gay community.

For all its faults, Hollywood is a pretty accurate

reflection of the way most of the world is looking, and the fact that

they can have actors who are openly gay, openly camply gay,

is not something you should thank or congratulate Hollywood for,

you thank and congratulate the culture

that Hollywood recognises, accepts things like that.

Hollywood is the thermometer that is

thrust up the anus of the world sensibility.

Things DO move forward. It's three steps forward, two steps back,

but in the end it is always progress.

People learn.

MUSIC: "I Wan'na Be Like You (The Monkey Song)" by Louis Prima

'Next time, I'm in Brazil...'

INAUDIBLE

'..at the biggest gay celebration in the world.

'I travel to India, where they're celebrating the end

'of British colonial laws which criminalised gays.

'And I'm in Russia,

'where life for gay people is taking a turn for the worst.'

Look at Putin, look at Dobby the house-elf,

and remember that's all he is, he's a little house-elf.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd