Interviews Before Execution: A Chinese Talk Show This World


Interviews Before Execution: A Chinese Talk Show

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Transcript


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Ding Yu is a journalist and TV presenter.

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TRANSLATION: I like being a reporter. I really love my job.

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After so many years, I feel it's more than a job to me.

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But the programme she presents is extraordinary.

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She conducts interviews with prisoners

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who've been sentenced to death.

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In the weeks, days or even minutes before an execution

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is carried out, the condemned talk to Ding Yu, face to face.

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Ding Yu and her team

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are making last-minute preparations for today's interview.

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In China, you can be sentenced to death for 55 crimes

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ranging from theft, smuggling

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and crimes against the state, to violent crimes like murder.

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Ding Yu focuses exclusively on clear-cut cases of murder,

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often unusually brutal killings.

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Interviews Before Execution is on every week of the year.

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It's been running for more than four years.

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Ding Yu has presented every one.

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The show is broadcast on the Henan Legal Channel -

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one of 3,000 TV channels across China.

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All are owned by the state and are subject to its censors.

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To Western eyes, the show may seem exploitative,

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but that's not how Ding Yu sees it.

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TRANSLATION: Some viewers may consider it cruel to ask a criminal

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to do an interview when they are about to be executed.

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On the contrary, they want to be heard.

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Ding Yu is about to interview a man who stabbed his ex-wife to death,

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before setting fire to the house.

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When I talk with the interviewee, I'm more concerned

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with his character, upbringing, environment,

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social background and the link between him and the victim.

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That is what we want to dig out.

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Gao Pingfu was badly burnt in the blaze

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and has been sentenced to death.

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TRANSLATION: We have a saying, "Feed him a carrot so he'll follow you."

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Everyone has their weak points, something they care about.

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So, we don't start by talking about the case with him,

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but things he might be interested in.

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We have to really understand this person.

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Gao Pingfu turned up at his ex-wife's home with a knife

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and stabbed her to death in front of her parents.

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TRANSLATION: 'When I'm face to face with them,

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'I feel sorry and regretful for them.'

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But I don't sympathize with them,

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for they should pay a heavy price for their wrongdoing.

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They deserve it.

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Their life experience is nothing unusual.

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And they have experienced something that

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most ordinary people are going through or will go through.

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The only difference is the dramatic change

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they undergo at the moment when they commit the crime.

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The intention of our programme is to prevent

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people from repeating their mistakes.

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A few weeks later, Ding Yu

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and her team track down Gao Pingfu's daughter living with her new family.

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TRANSLATION: We first asked for the consent of the girl's stepfather

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and then we said to the girl, "Your dad has something to say to you

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"and we have filmed it.

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"Would you like to see it?" She said "Yes".

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We just showed the back of her head.

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TRANSLATION: I can help them convey their last words.

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Or I can help carry out something he wants to do to atone for his crime.

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Through my interview, he can show his atonement for the crime

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and get rid of a heavy burden or a stone in his heart.

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Days later, the programme goes on air.

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The Chinese state doesn't release official statistics,

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but it is thought to execute thousands of people every year.

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They are killed by lethal injection or by firing squad.

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There is no presumption of innocence in Chinese law and confessions

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are sometimes taken before the suspect has had access to a lawyer.

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Henan TV's stated purpose is to inform and educate

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according to government policy.

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It's the show's weekly meeting.

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It was Ding Yu who came up with the idea

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for Interviews Before Execution.

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She pitched it to the boss of the channel.

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-TRANSLATION:

-I thought it was a great idea right away.

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Not because I thought of it as being commercially successful

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but for our responsibility to society.

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But they still had to persuade government officials

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and the courts that the show was in the national interest.

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When we were planning this programme, we had to have the consent

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and approval of the high court of Henan province.

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Without them we wouldn't have been be able to do it.

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In China, judges are appointed by the state's

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National People's Congress.

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Judge Liu Wenling was one of the first to offer cases

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to the programme.

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-TRANSLATION:

-When Ding Yu came to me

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and asked whether I could offer her a good case for

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Interviews Before Execution, I remembered this one case.

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The reason why I chose it is because of its educational value.

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That is, when young people in love are dealing with

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romantic disputes, they should not lose control like the defendant.

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As a warning to others, the Chinese authorities have traditionally

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paraded prisoners through the streets before execution.

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Now they use a TV show.

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The message they want to send is that you must abide by the law

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and you must never lose control.

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-LU PEIJUN IN TRANSLATION:

-We want the audience to be warned.

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For us, if people are warned then some tragedies might be averted.

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That's good for society.

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Interviews Before Execution rates in the top 10 shows in the province

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and is watched by millions every week.

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It has made Ding Yu a star.

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The audience like her, and so do the interviewees.

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That means criminals hated by the public.

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And she is a lady.

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I assumed her female image would be helpful to the production.

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We say she is the beauty with the beasts.

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In a break from filming, Ding Yu goes shopping

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with her husband and her son.

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But even here, work catches up with her.

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Over 100 million people live in Henan province.

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Vast cities are surrounded by enormous rural areas.

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Justice in China can be swift.

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Once the supreme court has upheld a death sentence, the prisoner

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can be executed after seven days.

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Executions take place near to where the prisoners are being held,

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in open spaces closed off from the public

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or in mobile execution trucks.

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As the province is so large, Ding Yu often travels hundreds of miles

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for an interview at short notice.

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The young man she'll interview today

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is convicted of murdering his girlfriend's grandparents.

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His girlfriend knew about the plan to rob them

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and is facing 12 years in jail, and the boy who killed them

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has been sentenced to death.

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Both defendants are university students.

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They are very young, in their 20s.

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Like many of the cases Ding Yu covers, this one is about money.

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The robbery went wrong

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and Zhang Peng ended up murdering the elderly couple.

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Ding Yu passed on Zhang Peng's message to his girlfriend,

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who's also in jail for being an accomplice to the robbery.

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TRANSLATION: To me it seems that the girl still loves this boy,

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even though he killed her grandparents.

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Her eyes were wet with tears.

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I've interviewed criminals even younger than him.

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Some are just 18 years old.

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That's the minimum age you can be sentenced to death.

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They are gone now, executed. They have left their families for ever.

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They are so young.

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They never had the chance to see this world, or to enjoy life,

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career, work, and love of family.

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They've made the wrong choice, and the price is their lives.

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The show airs only a week after the interview,

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so Ding Yu and the editor are under intense pressure

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to get it ready for transmission.

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TRANSLATION: I can say, this programme

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has a really serious effect on me.

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When I started the show, I was often so scared, scared about others,

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about people around me, afraid they might kill me.

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Home is the only place she can really switch off and relax.

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'All the anxiety and pressures from my work are lifted as soon

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'as I come home to my family.

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'I know I'll keep on doing many interviews, but at the same time,

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'lots of people keep telling me, don't do this programme for long.

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'Even the High Court chief himself personally suggested that

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'I should not do this programme for long.'

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He said, as a girl, he called me a girl,

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though I was not a girl any more, he said doing this would burden

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you too much, and won't do your life any good.

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Although she's presented the show for four years,

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Ding Yu admits to crying on only two occasions during an interview.

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Once was with a man sentenced to death for the murder of a child.

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It was a kidnap for ransom that went horribly wrong.

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The killer described in detail what they did to the girl.

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It was too much for Ding Yu to bear.

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Filming a documentary about her show is making Ding Yu

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relive many of the cases she's filmed throughout the years.

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Interviewing so often, I thought I'd get used to the evil.

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But the questions you've asked me,

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about the cases that have affected me most, they're painful for me.

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Because telling those stories, recalling them,

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I've felt anxious since yesterday.

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It's making me feel awful and giving me headaches.

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As Ding Yu's show has gained in popularity,

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viewers have contacted her to ask her to cover their stories.

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For one of her most memorable interviews,

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it was the victim's sister who got in touch.

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TRANSLATION: Unable to see Wu Yanyan herself,

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the sister-in-law really wanted to know

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how Wu could be so cruel and how she could have killed her husband.

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She wanted to draw wider attention to this case

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because of her hatred of the killer.

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It is a kind of comfort for the sister.

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Ding Yu was to follow the story over many months,

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to an extraordinary conclusion.

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From the start, it was more complicated

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than most of Ding Yu's cases. The death sentence was in dispute.

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Despite Wu Yanyan's claims, the abuse was never proven.

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When Wu Yanyan's case went to trial,

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she was sentenced to immediate execution.

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But since 2007, every execution verdict in China has had to

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go to the Supreme Court to be confirmed.

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When they looked at Wu Yanyan's case and the accusations of abuse,

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they asked for it to be re-examined.

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When the crime happened,

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her daughter was only a baby of 14 months.

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Now she is soon to be seven.

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This is torture for a mother like Wu.

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In the last five years, the government's official policy

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has been to execute less, and more cautiously.

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Earlier this year the Chinese state reduced the number of crimes

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that receive the death penalty from 68 to 55.

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Now, economic crimes like VAT and credit fraud no longer carry

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the death sentence, but with no published statistics

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it's impossible to measure the impact of the changes.

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There is also now a more lenient line on domestic murder.

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Judges are expected to consult with the victim's family

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and try to agree a lesser sentence with them.

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In Wu Yanyan's case, it's judge Liu Wenling's job

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to mediate between the two sides.

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-TRANSLATION:

-Mediations for most criminal cases are very difficult.

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Because victims' families are experiencing huge sorrow,

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and they all have this traditional idea -

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you killed my family member, you need to be sentenced to death.

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Although this crime is still a homicide,

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since it has taken a life and has left severe consequences,

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it does less harm to society than other cases

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of kidnap and murder or robbery and murder.

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Wu Yanyan's case is one that Ding Yu

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and her team will continue to follow.

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If the two families can come to an agreement then

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her death sentence could be lifted.

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Ding Yu's recorded over 200 programmes,

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but it was her interview with a gay man

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that proved the most controversial.

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Until 1999, homosexuality was an imprisonable offence in China

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and it is still a huge taboo rarely discussed in the media.

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Bao Rongting was convicted of murdering his mother

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and abusing her dead body.

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When the interview with Bao Rongting aired,

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it achieved the highest viewing figures of the series.

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The channel ran another three half-hour episodes on his story.

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It was the first time Ding Yu had met an openly gay man.

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TRANSLATION: 'This episode deeply affected many viewers.

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'And it was a great challenge for me to face him.

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'I really couldn't accept some of his practices, words and deeds.'

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Though he was a man, he asked me, in a very feminine tone,

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"Do you feel awkward speaking to me?"

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Actually, I did feel awkward.

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'But I couldn't say I felt awkward.'

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I could only say, "Erm. No. No. Not awkward."

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Because a gay man always hopes others will approve and understand.

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If I showed any sign of disapproval, he'd raise a wall.

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He'd refuse my interview and never disclose his inner feelings.

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The law in China stipulates prisoners can be executed

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just seven days after their final sentence, but some remain in prison

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awaiting execution for much longer.

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A month after Ding Yu interviewed Bao Rongting,

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she has returned to the prison on the day of his execution.

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While there, they filmed two other men being led out

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to say goodbye to their families in the prison courtyard.

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It wasn't until 2006 prisoners in Henan were allowed

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to see their families before their execution.

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The next prisoner is brought out to say goodbye to his family.

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Ding Yu and her team are the only people who have turned up

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to see Bao Ronting before his execution.

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He asked me, "Where will I go? Will I go to heaven?"

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He knew his life would soon end.

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I said, "Sorry, I went to your home yesterday,

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"but your brother didn't want to see you off."

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He said, "It doesn't matter. It's my fault anyway."

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People talk about angels and devils.

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I never thought of myself as an angel

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because I meet these people for work.

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I see myself more as a witness.

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I witness how they've arrived at the point of death.

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Witness their mind-set before death.

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And witness the transition from life to death.

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In China, the condemned must provide signatures and fingerprints,

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to confirm their identity and state that they don't want to take up

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their right to further appeal.

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By signing the paperwork,

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he clears the last hurdle for his own execution.

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As he says goodbye he has one last request.

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TRANSLATION: I had so many thoughts racing through my head.

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Should I shake hands with him?

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What would he gain if I did?

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What comfort would this bring? Would it help him go peacefully?

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At last, I moved my middle finger across his hand.

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There was a lot of dirt under his nails.

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It was like that.

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For a long time, there was a feeling in this finger.

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I can't describe that feeling.

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I don't know whether I should have shaken hands with him or not.

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That was just my instinctive reaction.

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I remember his look. He turned to look around.

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I think he was looking for his relatives.

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But his relatives didn't show up, not while he was still alive.

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After he was executed, his family members went to collect his body.

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Bao Rongting was then loaded into an open-top truck

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wearing a placard bearing his name and his crime,

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and he was paraded around the streets on the way to his execution.

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This practice is no longer legal in China,

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but there are many differences in the way

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the law is implemented across the country.

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Ding Yu's programme never shows the actual execution.

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SIRENS BLARE

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The constant proximity to death haunts her.

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TRANSLATION: About this time last year, I was on a train to Fujian.

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It was about 1am. I wasn't feeling well and couldn't sleep.

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Everyone else was asleep.

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The curtains were closed.

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The moment I opened them, it seemed, outside in the blurry night,

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in the wilderness, stood a long row of people.

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All those I've interviewed who'd been executed.

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Their faces were so real.

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And now all of them, standing there looking at me.

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I was horrified. I couldn't have imagined anything like that.

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I don't know why.

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Actually, I know so many stories,

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met so many people, heard so many cases,

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learned about so many hard realities.

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How can I put it?

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It's really not good for me at all.

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I have too much rubbish in my heart.

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Ding Yu is at Zhengzhou Detention Centre.

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They're about to film an interview that has taken weeks to set up.

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-TRANSLATION:

-We have to do some research before shooting,

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interview the victim's family, and ask for background information.

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And then we'll contact the families of the defendants,

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sometimes we would contact their neighbours,

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or witnesses at the crime scene.

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TRANSLATION: There are tricks to get cases from the criminal court,

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and permission from the propaganda department,

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letting them understand the case is educational, and typical.

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However, after initially agreeing, the man refuses to do the interview.

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Making this programme is difficult.

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We can't interview subjects without getting their consent.

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People rarely refuse our interview. Until now.

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According to Henan TV, only five prisoners have ever refused,

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out of more than 200 Ding Yu has interviewed.

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In Chinese law they now recognize a concept called "social harmony".

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In the case of a domestic murder,

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if the victim's family can forgive the murderer,

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and an agreement can be reached by the two sides,

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then the death penalty can be lifted.

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The judges have persuaded the families of Wu Yanyan

0:42:300:42:33

and her murdered husband to meet.

0:42:330:42:36

'The victim's family strongly demanded the death penalty,'

0:42:400:42:44

but it is not encouraged by the current criminal justice policy.

0:42:440:42:49

So the judge needed to do a lot of mediation.

0:42:510:42:55

Only by doing so could Wu Yanyan's life be saved.

0:42:560:43:01

LIU WENLING: 'According to the regulations of criminal law,

0:43:070:43:10

'we need to provide an opportunity for mediation to both sides.'

0:43:100:43:14

The victim's family strongly hoped that Wu

0:43:140:43:17

would be sentenced to death,

0:43:170:43:19

but I still talked with them from the perspective of this girl.

0:43:190:43:23

Wu Yanyan's husband's family are determined she should be executed.

0:43:250:43:30

But this is her parents' chance to convince them to show forgiveness.

0:43:300:43:35

In reality, it often just comes down to money,

0:43:370:43:40

and how much one family will pay to another

0:43:400:43:43

to compensate for their loss.

0:43:430:43:44

Later, Ding Yu plays Wu Yanyan the video of her family's pleas.

0:43:470:43:50

SHE SCREAMS AND SOBS

0:43:560:43:59

Wu Yanyan is back in court awaiting the judges' final verdict.

0:44:280:44:33

In Chinese courts there is no jury,

0:44:400:44:42

and the judges' decisions are made by majority.

0:44:420:44:46

The trial is open to all parties to express their views -

0:44:460:44:48

even members of the local community can try and influence the judges.

0:44:480:44:53

The distraught parents of Wu Yanyan's husband

0:45:020:45:06

approach the judges and demand

0:45:060:45:09

the immediate execution sentence be upheld.

0:45:090:45:12

Ding Yu and her team will return to film after the final verdict.

0:45:300:45:35

If her death sentence is lifted,

0:45:350:45:37

Wu Yanyan will be able to see her daughter again.

0:45:370:45:39

-TRANSLATION:

-I have practiced criminal trials for 29 years,

0:45:430:45:46

and I know they are the most rigorous trials

0:45:460:45:51

because the power to take lives is granted to you by the Party,

0:45:510:45:54

the country and the people.

0:45:540:45:57

This power is very great.

0:45:580:46:00

When I first handled death sentence cases, I felt very heavy

0:46:010:46:05

if I gave a death sentence.

0:46:050:46:07

They also had parents, wives and children.

0:46:080:46:12

CHILDREN SING

0:46:160:46:18

It can be overwhelming for their families.

0:46:200:46:23

Especially for their children.

0:46:230:46:25

Some are quite young.

0:46:250:46:27

They don't know what crime their parent committed.

0:46:270:46:30

All they know is they'll be executed by firing squad.

0:46:300:46:34

Ding Yu is at a home for children orphaned

0:46:350:46:38

after their parents were sent to jail or executed.

0:46:380:46:41

There are only six across China, all funded by private donations.

0:46:490:46:53

Children as young as four months can live here, some stay for years.

0:47:090:47:14

Children living in Xin Xiang Sun Village are taken to visit

0:47:220:47:26

their mothers in prison, some of whom are facing the death penalty.

0:47:260:47:31

The Sun Village aims to take them there at least once or twice a year.

0:47:310:47:35

As the date of the execution approaches, the children are

0:47:380:47:42

no longer brought to see their mothers, to reduce the trauma

0:47:420:47:45

of final separation.

0:47:450:47:47

Wu Yanyan is held here at Xin Xiang women's prison

0:47:570:48:01

along with 5,000 inmates.

0:48:010:48:04

The death penalty is still widely used across China.

0:48:120:48:16

But change does appear to be happening.

0:48:160:48:18

Fewer crimes now receive a sentence of immediate execution.

0:48:180:48:23

Wu Yanyan's parents agree to pay compensation

0:48:230:48:26

of 100,000 Chinese yuan, or about £10,000, to her husband's family.

0:48:260:48:31

This is a huge amount of money in China

0:48:320:48:35

and almost double the average annual wage.

0:48:350:48:38

Wu Yanyan has had her death penalty suspended for two years,

0:48:410:48:45

but if she deliberately commits any further crime in prison

0:48:450:48:48

she will be executed.

0:48:480:48:51

At the end of these two years, her final sentence will be reviewed

0:48:510:48:54

and she could even eventually be freed.

0:48:540:48:57

I truly felt released.

0:49:010:49:04

The two sides are able to finally accept the judgment,

0:49:040:49:08

and reach an agreement because of my efforts.

0:49:080:49:11

'I felt released.'

0:49:190:49:22

Initially, they insisted that Wu has to be sentenced

0:49:220:49:25

to immediate execution, but now they can forgive her.

0:49:250:49:29

Ding Yu has returned to see Wu Yanyan.

0:49:380:49:40

She is making a follow-up to the original programme

0:49:400:49:44

a year after it was broadcast.

0:49:440:49:47

Ding Yu had filmed Wu Yanyan's sister-in-law

0:50:410:50:44

at the time of the trial.

0:50:440:50:46

She was adamant Wu Yanyan should be executed.

0:50:460:50:49

She couldn't forgive Wu Yanyan,

0:50:490:50:51

but nevertheless, took her daughter in and brought her up as her own.

0:50:510:50:56

Although Wang Li

0:51:170:51:19

and her parents forgave Wu Yanyan, the rest of the family had not.

0:51:190:51:23

Today, Wang Li has brought Wu Yanyan's daughter to the prison,

0:51:480:51:52

but the little girl has not been told Wu Yanyan is her mother.

0:51:520:51:56

For years, Wu Yanyan believed she'd be executed

0:53:230:53:26

and thought she'd never see her daughter again.

0:53:260:53:30

Ding Yu sits the family down to talk.

0:53:440:53:46

If her good behaviour continues, one day Wu Yanyan

0:55:190:55:23

could even be freed and return home to her daughter.

0:55:230:55:27

After the interview, I knew how much the opportunity meant to her.

0:55:310:55:35

She is beginning to understand what she has done

0:55:350:55:38

and the mistakes she has made.

0:55:380:55:40

This will enable her to obey the law and be tolerant to others.

0:55:420:55:47

It is a new start for her.

0:55:470:55:50

The makers of Interviews Before Execution

0:55:580:56:01

believe the show represents the changes taking place in China.

0:56:010:56:05

-TRANSLATION:

-For me, our programme

0:56:090:56:11

can show the world what happens here,

0:56:110:56:13

so they can see the real China, and see China's improvements.

0:56:130:56:17

Although China is thought to execute more people than any other country,

0:56:270:56:32

the death penalty gives one senior member of the judiciary

0:56:320:56:35

pause for thought.

0:56:350:56:37

I've already said that a life could end in the twinkling of an eye

0:56:400:56:44

after a trial.

0:56:440:56:46

I'd say this is also very cruel.

0:56:460:56:49

It's also a means of getting rid of evil deeds through an evil deed.

0:56:490:56:54

This also touches on the topic we talked about -

0:56:540:56:58

should we abolish the death penalty?

0:56:580:57:01

Since the death sentence for criminals is itself a violent act

0:57:010:57:06

then we should abolish it.

0:57:060:57:08

However, I don't think our country is ready yet

0:57:090:57:13

for abolishing the death penalty.

0:57:130:57:16

But in the future, it would be good to abolish it.

0:57:160:57:20

Ding Yu doesn't talk of abolition,

0:57:290:57:32

but whatever the burdens of her job,

0:57:320:57:35

she sees her mission as keeping people on the right side of the law.

0:57:350:57:39

'The programme urges us to make the right choices

0:57:420:57:45

'when we face every challenge in life, and let us live more rationally'

0:57:450:57:50

and happily, cherish life more and live more thankfully.

0:57:500:57:54

This is my biggest wish making this programme.

0:57:540:57:57

I hope that one day

0:57:570:57:58

there will be no prisoners on death row to interview.

0:57:580:58:01

Then I will be satisfied.

0:58:010:58:04

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0:58:500:58:54

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