Kids in the Middle

I'm fine how we are, actually.

I think it's better that we're not living with Dad,

so then we don't have, like, Mum and Dad shouting at each other.

It feels better... that way.

It's nice like, seeing Dad, like, every other week.

So we get to, like, keep in contact.

I actually don't know how I've got into this situation,

where I'm having to use a Contact Centre.

After all, it was Dawn that left the marital home.

-Hello.

-Hello.

-Come in.

-Thank you.

Since then, the way that the law is, is that I just don't see...

see my children enough. Not nearly enough.

And that breaks my heart every day, but I've accepted that.

Let's move on, let's get to a situation where, hopefully, my children will come back to me.

I can imagine at the moment he's probably like a caged animal when he's in there,

because he can't do what he wants and be what he wants.

It's just a horrible situation really, because

when you have these children, you don't ever want to take them away from their Dad

- I didn't ever want to take them away from their Dad.

It's just that they're not happy or comfortable to be with him.

When families break up, it's common for children to feel awkward

around the parent who doesn't live with them,

especially if Mum and Dad have argued before splitting up.

Contact Centres are neutral ground, a place where an estranged parent,

usually the father, can spend precious time with their children.

Dawn and Keith met 14 years ago.

His first wife had recently died, leaving him with four children.

But now, Dawn and Keith can't be in the same room together,

and that's difficult because they have three daughters of their own.

-Here you are.

-Ooh, the evil eyes!

Sam's the quietest,

but at home when she knows everyone, she'll be really, really loud.

Get off!

Vick, well, she's a drama queen really.

She doesn't really need to go to acting.

And me... I don't know.

I call Nicola a dancing queen.

Yeah, cos she's always dancing.

And Sam, I'd say is a bit of a squawker.

She squawks in my ear.

And I call her moody.

I'd describe Victoria as loud.

Look, I've got these braces. Oh, yes!

Crazy! And... slightly a bit thick.

Nicola, em, show off,

and...sometimes sweet.

It sounds like you're making a tune.

LAUGHTER

I have contact, at the present moment,

every fortnight with all three of them at the Roberts Contact Centre, which is in Portsmouth.

And you've got to be with your children for two hours.

Hiya love, give us a hug!

That's really exciting, just being a father, just having fun with them.

I've got this philosophy where we should just have a lot of fun,

as long as we don't hurt anybody else.

Have you got any dancing to do before Christmas?

-What, dance competitions?

-Yeah.

-February's the next one.

February's the next one? Have any of you been in any school plays recently?

No. Ours happens in summer.

Have you got... Are you going in the big one at the end of the year?

-Yes.

-Yeah, we have to do one.

-Have they decided what they're going to do?

-No.

-No.

It's a place where children can come and see their absent parent or absent family member,

so the most likely use of it is when there's been parental separation

and it's difficult for the parties to decide

how the child is going to see the absent parent.

Sometimes it is just that the parents can't negotiate with each other at the moment.

They go through a lot of upset and hurt and a lot of anger,

and sometimes being able to use a Contact Centre

em, gives time for some of those feelings to settle.

-I want to hear about your week first, what happened?

-Em...

-Um... Oh, we.

-Hang on, Nicola was talking first.

What happened, Nickers? Grr, I called you Nickers, I'm sorry!

Nicola.

LAUGHTER

When it starts, I don't think either parent wants to have contact here,

because the contact parent doesn't see why they should have to have contact where they're observed

and watched by workers, and the resident parent probably doesn't think contact should happen at all.

So neither party actually want to start having contact here.

I hope I have the golden monkey in this pack somewhere.

It's the best card.

What? It's, like, cool man!

It's an intrusion on our privacy

that there is somebody actually listening to what I'm saying to the children, yes.

I don't... I don't like that.

Come on, it is important that you get some fresh air in your lungs, girls.

It is quite a false environment for people to have contact in,

so you do have to work quite hard with them

to help them relax and focus on the child and not focus on the fact

that they have people watching them.

Why Office? It's just...

-Yes?

-I am sorry, but I need to ask you what you're doing on the computer,

-and what information is on it.

-There's nothing. It's just come out of a box.

For the two hours that I'm there I try and switch them out of my brain.

I'm just there with my girls.

Nicola, as long as there's nothing on there and you don't connect to the internet, that's fine.

-OK. Well, we haven't.

-OK?

-OK. Fair enough.

I love my kids and all I want to do is see them.

I want to be their father, I want to look after them,

I want to listen to their stories,

I want to help them with their school work,

I want to help them with their life.

-Ooh! There's kisses in here. Can I have a kiss?

-Yeah.

Mwah! Thank you, Victoria.

Oooh! "To Dad from Nicola."

No kisses?

-No.

-No, no! No kisses.

For me, the Contact Centre is brilliant

because I don't have to see him and speak to him if I pick them up or drop them off.

I don't have to... communicate with him at all.

And it's not that I don't want to.

It's just that I don't need the abuse that goes with it.

-Are you OK?

-Yeah.

-Strong as an ox, aren't you? I love you very much.

I'll be extremely sad the moment they leave.

Sometimes that lasts for a long, long time. It just kills you.

You get three stab wounds in the heart when they leave,

and you know, that you're not going to see them for another fortnight.

Thank you. See you after Christmas.

We're just ordinary people, you know, a father with his daughters.

There's something wrong with the other people involved.

I just don't understand it. It's just...

I've got to pull myself together now.

And... that's not the easiest thing in the world to do.

I just tell myself that one day it'll be right.

While Keith and Dawn spent time in court arguing over who should have the children,

the girls have their own preferences for who they want to live with.

Well, I would like to live with them, but I don't...

I just don't want to upset him saying,

"Oh, I really, really, really want to live with Mum."

But I do want to live with them both really very, very much.

I want to live with Mum, the same as Nik.

Mum, Mum. Mum. Mum. Written all across our faces.

-M-U-...

-Not that type of written!

We met at the Farnham Beer Festival first off.

Just sort of literally bumped into each other more or less,

and just had a quick chat. He just gave me his card

and I phoned him up a few weeks later.

And we arranged to go out for a drink, which he didn't turn up to

because he'd got the wrong date and time and everything.

So I phoned him up to give him a mouthful,

and somehow he managed to talk me into meeting him somewhere else,

and we just went out for a drink a few times.

And we had a kind of a short whirlwind sort of relationship.

And the next thing, I know I invited her back to stay with me.

She wanted to leave her boyfriend, and that was it.

She turned up one day with her car and all of her possessions and that was it.

She was living with me.

He asked me dozens of times to marry him before I sort of agreed.

I think you just get beaten down into it.

It's not... You know, I really wasn't looking for marriage or anything at the time,

but you just get broken down till you agree.

He was very nice and he was very attentive to start with,

very attentive to start with.

But that soon...soon dwindled off once we'd gotten married, so... Unfortunately.

Some people, like, stay together for, like, forever

cos they sort of, like, do everything together.

Mm, yeah. But some people don't, Vicky,

-that's why there's loads of divorces...

-Sorry.

-..in England.

-Take a break.

It's really good that you can divorce, cos if you wouldn't

then you'd just have to live with the fighting.

-Yeah, all day long.

-And then you'd get killed!

Grrr! Grrr! You wouldn't exactly get killed.

You might get killed in the end.

If it sort of like, it goes either bad or violence

then it might even go to domestic violence, as Sam said.

Ow! You just whacked me on the back!

Well, about six months into the relationship

I kind of gathered that, em...

Her biological clock was running, basically.

And it was at this point I decided that I would have to do something

about the fact that I wasn't able to produce children anymore,

so I went along to a private clinic, and had a reversal operation.

And, obviously, you know, it did work because I've had three more children,

three children with Dawn. And we started off with twins.

The babies come along, my husband works from home the week before they're born.

The week I bring them home he goes back out to the office to work,

and doesn't tell me beforehand that's what he's going to do.

That hurt. And then I'm kind of left there on my own all day

with nobody to talk to. Two screaming, two screaming babies.

BABIES CRYING

Sam, how do you feel about going to the Contact Centre?

The usual. I wish I don't have to go. I'd to stay home do Nintendo.

-I just don't like going.

-Watch...

-Vicky!

-Is that all you want to say?

-Yeah.

-OK.

Helloooo!

Hi, Vic! What do you feel about going to the Contact Centre?

-The usual.

-What?

OK, but not OK.

But... I do feel good, because I get to see my Dad,

but I don't feel good because... I know what he will do.

-And... that's it!

-OK.

So Samantha,

have you heard anything about what's going to happen at Brookfields?

You have to do tests, tests, tests, work, work, work. Homework...

He was normally not there really, so I wouldn't even care if he was around or not.

I didn't used to like doing stuff with him really,

cos he would make it even boring.

How would he make it boring?

He would normally put it in, like, a school subject

which, em, would make you normally fall asleep at school and just doze off.

It's not boring, it can't be boring.

A lot of your life will be like that.

We think it's boring, we just think it's boring, and it always will be.

Oh, come on.

I'm sorry Samantha, I've got to find a way of breaking you

from that mould of, "It's boring".

I'd rather fill shelves in the supermarket.

I'd rather do that than do homework.

I like this week's homework, but I'm rubbish at it.

What was in your homework that was good then?

I think they're very typical of a family

needing to use a Contact Centre to re-establish

both the relationship with the children and their parents,

but it's also about building up some kind of mutual respect

and trust eventually between the parents,

because they are going to be linked forever via those children,

and there is an element of being able to build up trust and respect

and a business-like relationship

once, you know, once it's broken down in its first instance.

Vicki, what have you been up to, what have you learnt this week?

-Sketching.

-Sketching? What did you sketch?

-I loved art at school, what did you sketch?

-I sketched boots.

-Boots?

-Mountain boots?

-Yes.

-Oh, OK, yeah, I know what you mean.

-Something like, they had big soles like that at the bottom?

-Yeah.

-Why do they have soles like that?

-So you can climb mountains.

-Why does that make you able to climb a mountain then?

-Cos it's got grip.

-Why is grip important? Do you know, Samantha?

-Otherwise you'd slip.

-Yeah?

-And die.

-OK.

-And fall.

-What causes grip?

-I don't know.

-Oh, I ain't got any grip.

I don't know, and I don't even want to know.

Day to day life changed quite dramatically.

Dawn wanted to breast-feed the children

and she did breast-feed the children, which, actually, is...

..all of my other children were bottle-fed.

Actually, when you bottle-feed a child

there's a lot more interaction,

so you share the burden of bringing up the children.

As Samantha and Victoria were breast-fed,

that interaction didn't quite start off

as well as it could, could've done.

They say when you have a baby it's lovely, it's wonderful.

It was hell, to be quite honest, because I hardly ever slept,

I hardly ever ate. It's just a constant,

you know, you're just on tenterhooks the whole time,

because there is nobody else there for those two babies except you.

It was quite a struggle for Dawn,

and I think she would admit as well that she had

what I would describe as very serious post-natal depression.

I tried to get involved more

but often she would push me away, saying,

you know, don't get involved.

-It wasn't long before you were pregnant again.

-No.

No. That was...

I didn't think I could cope with that. That was horrible.

-Was that a planned pregnancy?

-No.

Not at all.

It was an accident?

No, not... I don't know, I don't...

It, shouldn't have happened, but...

..it did happen. It was...

..you know, I wouldn't be without her now, she's lovely.

Nicola was kind of a mistake, but she did come along far too early.

In fact...

Dawn wanted to terminate Nicola...

..and...

this was something I couldn't, couldn't go ahead with.

He once said to Nicola that what happened, well,

before she was born, like, the decision if she was going to be...

..um, well, if she's going to...

-..be here now or...

-Be born.

Yeah. To be born or to be killed really.

In the tummy really.

I've forgotten what that's called, but...

When he mentioned it,

it just upset Nicola and Nicola just...

Yeah, but we understand what it meant though.

I know that Nicola got affected by one of the things I did say,

something I'll always regret, but I did say it,

and that was, you know,

Dawn, you tried to kill Nicola.

And Nicola actually didn't understand that,

that sentence at the time, but...

and it should have been couched in a different way.

Hi, today we're going to the Contact Centre.

And I'm really curious what's going to happen.

But I hope it goes well.

Today I feel good about it,

and I've got dancing. So that's even better.

Bye.

-How's your dancing coming along, Nicola?

-Great.

-What are you doing at the moment?

-Dancing.

No, I mean have you done any more ballet exams and things like that?

No.

-Are you due any more?

-Yeah, Tap One.

Tap One? That's not ballet.

-Tap exam.

-Oh, tap exam.

And what do you, can you show us what you've got to do for it?

-Can't remember.

-You're being awkward again, aren't you?

Do you think Mums and Dads should do whatever they can to stay together when they've got children?

I suppose it's good,

but then if they're having the fights,

then I wouldn't,

they shouldn't stay together.

Sometimes it's better off that they split up.

But if it's only like, one or two fights, then I wouldn't bother,

I think it would be nice for the family to stay together.

-Are you still doing Tap then, Vicky?

-Yeah.

-Well, can you show me what it is?

-What, what a part of it?

-Yeah, please.

-After I do this.

When Dad took me out he'd just say he still loves her.

And I, I was very proud of that.

And then it came to Valentine's Day

and he gave Mum a present and a rose.

And then she never,

she never opened the present or picked up the rose.

And I thought that was a bit,

you know, not very Valentine.

We split up in March of this year.

It was quite acrimonious.

Hello!

-Morning, sir.

-Morning. I'd like to pick this up if you don't mind.

No problem, thank you very much.

I realised the relationship wasn't going anywhere,

and it was good that I had the opportunity of splitting up.

Yeah, that looks about right.

My eldest daughter, Heather, asked me the question,

did you see yourself getting old with Dawn?

And the answer was no.

And as soon as that actually hit the back of my head,

I realised that was, that was a great, a great release for me.

There we go, and that's for you.

-How much is the box?

-Oh don't worry.

-You sure?

-Yeah, no problem.

-All right thank you very much.

-Thank you then, take care.

-Bye-bye.

When Keith is finally divorced from Dawn, he's planning to marry Jill.

She's also married and going through her own acrimonious divorce.

She and her two sons have moved in with Keith.

I wondered whether Jill had any sympathy for Dawn's position.

No, no, I don't have any sympathy for, for Dawn's position.

In actual fact, in a bit of a perverse way,

Dawn's actually helped my ex-husband or to-be ex-husband,

because I see the way that Keith is because he can't see his girls,

so I'd never do anything to make the same situation arise for my sons,

because they need to see their father.

Dawn would either be exceptionally high and positive about herself,

or extremely low and very negative about herself, her self-worth even.

She was very difficult to build her up,

she would be very depressed about herself,

and I found it quite difficult sometimes to talk to her.

He'd just get up and go to work in the morning

cos he knew I'd be in pieces as he walked out the door,

so rather than face me each morning,

he'd just disappear without telling me.

And that hurt.

That hurt a lot.

He'd come home, and all I wanted, after being on my own all day

was, you know, somebody to talk to really, and that wasn't there.

That, there was no communication there anymore.

So I used to sit him down sometimes and say, "Look, you know,

"can't you tell me what's gone on in your day? And he'd say, you know,

"I'm working with companies that have to sign the Secrets Act,

"so I can't tell you who I'm working with."

I was saying, "I don't want to know all the in-depth details,

"just, just tell me some, some of your day or something."

But he just didn't seem to be able to do that.

At CAFCASS, I made a punch-bag,

cos this week was all about anger, emotions,

so when we get angry we can't even, have to, like,

take it out on our brothers and sisters,

we can punch the punch-bag.

As well as going to the Contact Centre every two weeks,

the girls have been having family therapy sessions

organised by CAFCASS.

We made punch-bags and we talked about anger.

Um...

I really enjoyed it really.

It's the only part of the day which I enjoy really.

And on the last week, we're going to make squishy balls.

I don't know what they're called,

but when you get angry, you squeeze them.

Stress balls, oh, yeah.

I just remembered, they're called stress balls.

Contact Centre visits are usually on Saturday.

The rule is that Keith arrives first.

Dawn comes 15 minutes later with the kids.

It's designed so that estranged parents

don't have to see each other.

We are asked not to get there early,

but it's very difficult not to sometimes.

If you are running late, it isn't nice.

It is extra pressure, because it looks like it's done on purpose

to limit Dad's time with the children,

and it's not done like that at all.

Well, I've brought my girls' sisters and one of their brothers down

for them to, hopefully, meet up with Samantha, Victoria and Nicola.

But at the moment, that's not going to be allowed,

and it's got to be agreed by Dawn

that the sisters and brothers can all meet up.

We trust, we do have a little bit of faith that it will happen,

because it would be nice that they can meet their brothers and sisters.

It's totally, totally your decision.

If you don't want to sign that piece of paper to agree to that,

it won't happen.

And it's something that can,

it would just give you all preparation time,

yourself and the girls.

SHE CRIES

Whatever I do, it'll just go against me.

Dawn has a difficult relationship with Keith's elder children.

It was made worse when they wrote letters to the family court

alleging that Dawn had been a bad mother to them.

Can you go in and say to the girls, look, the other children are here

and would you like to see them, and see what they say...?

Would you like us to pull the girls away

and ask them without Dad being there?

-Yeah. Could you do that?

-Yeah, we can do that.

I mean, Victoria will definitely say yes.

-It's the other two you'd like to ask?

-Yeah.

Just, just get their opinion on it.

You know, it's completely up to you.

So do you, I think it's you that would particularly like to see them.

-Yeah? So do you two feel OK?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

-Brilliant. OK.

So I'll go back and tell Mum.

-You can go back to Dad and we'll sort it all out.

-OK.

Brilliant. Thank you, girls.

He didn't sort of warn us that this is what he was planning on doing.

And it's not agreed at the Contact Centre

for anybody else to be with him, so it's just all a bit of a shock.

So what's your favourite subject at school,

even though you don't love school?

-Favourite subject?

-What are you best at?

-Art.

-At what?

-Art? You're very artistic?

-Yeah.

-Very good.

It just seems like a bit of a low, low trick to do,

to put us all on the spot like that.

It's all, I don't know, another part of his game plan, I suppose.

Oh, I remember the first St Trinian's too. Mr Darcy died.

Yeah, cos he was humping on someone's leg.

LAUGHTER

-Wait, is Mr Darcy a dog?

-Yeah.

LAUGHTER

Why has it upset you so much?

Because I wasn't expecting it.

You know, they come to see their Dad,

they don't come to see anybody else.

It's all part of Mr Skinner's big game.

It'll be part of, oh, their sisters were so glad to see,

meet all their other brothers and sisters,

and how they should all go back

into the family home and live with him and live happily ever after,

and Mum can piss off down the road somewhere and do what she likes.

I don't normally eat cereal,

I normally eat a chocolate spread wrap with fruit and a yoghurt.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

I don't say...

-(AMERICAN ACCENT)

-Yo'ghurt.

-No! Or the other way, which is...

Oh, yoghurt.

You say "yoghurt".

-Do the girls know that he's got another relationship now?

-Yeah.

-HE

-hasn't told them though.

Well, he's told them he's got a girlfriend,

he hasn't told them that he's moved her family in with them.

Do you think that would upset them?

Um...

I think it would upset Victoria,

because she was always of the opinion

that Daddy was lonely and on his own.

LAUGHTER

-But it doesn't bother you he's got a new relationship, presumably.

-No.

I worry, I worry about her and her children.

I hope she's stronger than I am.

I hope she's a bit more alert and awake to what's going on.

There's nothing I can do about it.

I thought, I did think that maybe when he got in a new relationship,

he might back off us a bit, but it's just made him even more intense.

It was lovely to see you.

Take care.

Big hug.

Come on.

See you soon, OK?

THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER

I can absolutely, categorically say he was a wonderful father.

And he's a very sweet and gentle man,

and to be treated like he's going to do something wrong to his children

is very unfair to him, because he's, he's a very gentle man.

And we had a lovely childhood...

a lovely childhood. We had lots of fun.

LAUGHS I'll say that with a smile on my face, we had lots of fun,

and so, yes.

SHE LAUGHS

Is he..? I thought he was laughing.

HE CRIES

Well, that's cruel, I thought he was laughing.

VOICES FADE OUT

Although he only sees his daughters every two weeks,

Keith wants to be involved in their education

and have an influence on the books they read.

The specific book I want to buy is one by John Steinbeck

called The Red Pony...

and it's the first book that made me cry,

and I thought that was a significant thing,

cos I think the theme this year will be books

and what they do to you,

whether they make you laugh, cry or think.

I'm going to come back here,

make some copies of the first chapter and hopefully,

the girls get a chance to read the fact

that it made me cry and, perhaps, makes them cry,

and then I'll give them the book and then they can go home

and get the joy, the hopeful story at the end of the whole book.

Hopefully, it'll open up their imaginations

to the wonderful world of books.

OK, let's have a little wager.

I want you all to read the first two chapters,

yeah, and bring it to me next week, the following time we see,

with a little note of about what you've read.

-No.

-Is that good enough?

-Boring.

But there's some questions at the front of the chapter,

which you've got to answer.

And at the front of chapter two...

Another question.

..there's five more questions.

-So there's...

-So we've got to answer ten?

-Ten questions.

It's not a difficult book.

-Can you all have a go at it?

-Yeah.

-All right.

-Yeah? Who wants to take...

-What's it about?

That's the whole idea of reading it, to find out.

-He asks us questions and then...

-We answer them...

What did you do at school?

-"Oh, I did maths".

-What did you do at school?

"Was it really good?" "Oh, I really hated it."

"Well, you should learn it more."

I'm just a little bit sick of him sort of, like, asking us.

But he is doing it, he is a Dad,

so he should ask us how we're doing at school.

In family court battles,

it's not just lawyers and social workers who get involved.

Keith agreed to be tested by a psychologist in order to assess

his suitability for further contact with his children.

I agreed to have a psychological test done on myself

to prove that I'm not barking.

I've been...since been to work,

and I think most of the people who've spoken to me

-think I might fail the test.

-HE LAUGHS

Why couldn't you have chosen a sweeter book?

I was quite busy this week, I had to go and see a psychologist.

What's a psychologist?

-A man...

-Someone who deals with, like, works with mental people,

cos George's Mum is a psychologist.

Yes. But the good news is that I'm not mental.

HE LAUGHS

-I thought you are.

-I'm not.

-You are!

-That's a little bit weird.

That means you have to go into a mental home

and then we won't ever come there.

No, I'm fine. I'm 100% fine.

-Are you sure?

-Yeah.

-A mad people's home.

No, I'm fine, I promise you, girls.

What were you doing there anyway?

-To see if he was mental.

-Yeah.

-To see if I had any problems, and I don't.

-Why?

-Huh?

-Why?

Cos he feels like he's mental.

No, it has nothing to do with that.

I was asked to do it by somebody.

Oh, by who?

And you did it.

-I did it.

-What if they asked you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

-No, I wouldn't. No, no.

-Who asked you?

I'd better not say at the moment. I'll tell you one day.

Tell us.

-Please.

-He's not allowed to tell us.

No. It was just something I had to do and I did it,

to prove that I was not, I didn't have any problems, that was all.

OK?

We weren't friends as much as we should have been, yeah?

When you're in a relationship,

I think your partner has to be your best friend,

apart from, you know,

a guy that you've always had as a friend, if you know what I mean.

I knew that it wasn't a perfect relationship,

but we, we never argued, not to my recollection anyway,

just sort of a few, a few bits and pieces.

They were shouting at each other...

..and then, the dog would shake,

and like, go to her bed.

She doesn't like shouting.

You kind... I think I know that now.

Yeah...

nothing really good was happening, just shouting.

He never got to the point where he would start hitting.

He would just use threatening words and all of that.

And it just scared my Mum to pieces, really.

She didn't know what to do. She was panicking, really.

And all you'd just hear is shouting

and especially when I was in bed,

I used to hear Mum and Dad shout about things.

And I hardly got to sleep.

I didn't know what was going to happen after that.

Towards the end, yeah, we had a lot of rows.

Because I wouldn't stop work.

And I think he was just trying to stop me going anywhere,

doing anything, having anything of my own.

And then he started checking up on me,

you know, where was I walking the dog and, you know, where was I then?

And the phone used to ring every lunch time,

the phone would ring,

and then it got to started ringing at nine o'clock,

or just after nine o'clock,

just to make sure that I'd come home from taking the children to school.

I think there was another guy involved.

Romantically?

If not romantically,

somebody who was pulling the strings in terms of Dawn.

And did you confront her about that? Did you talk about it?

Um, to a certain point, but it became...

..it became apparent to me that it wasn't really...

you know, it wasn't, it would have to go away on its...

There was nothing I could really do at that stage.

Yeah.

Hi, this is my pumpkin.

Film the dog.

The man who Keith suspected of having an affair with Dawn

is a friend and colleague of hers

who sometimes baby-sat for the girls when Dawn was working night-shifts.

Hi, this is my pumpkin.

Keith asked his daughters about the relationship.

The thing is, he used to ask me questions,

-like, really bad questions, like, Mummy...

-Rude questions.

Are Mum and Dave sleeping together? As if.

And the answer would be no.

-Because Mum would never want to sleep with anybody else.

-No.

It was very, very difficult not to make those questions...

not to ask what's going on.

You know, you're very scared for your children's welfare.

You want to know everything that's happening to them.

But two hours is, you could get yourself seriously frustrated

about something that you couldn't do anything about.

So why would I want, you know, I've...

I have to discipline myself not to ask those questions.

It's still very easy to fall into that trap.

And, what's it?

Where did he, where did they touch me, like in,

well, Mum thought it was the private bits and Dad said "anywhere".

And I'm like, "Ergh, that's weird".

Because I didn't know what he was talking about then.

You should have asked those types of questions that you don't understand.

I know. I did understand though.

He's only just trying to get evidence so then he can win you,

-well, not win you but, like...

-But like now he can...

-..keep you.

Was he worried, do you think, that you might be having an affair?

Oh, yeah. He was in the end,

I think because I worked so many hours in the evenings,

and he didn't know exactly where I was all the time.

Yeah, I think he thought that.

But you know...

..he didn't...

..he didn't show me any interest,

but he didn't want anybody else to sort of like, be with me either.

So he had no interest in me whatsoever,

just wanted me to just do what he wanted.

There was there was no real passion there, or anything anymore,

if you know what I mean.

So when did you make the decision that you had to leave?

After we'd had the police called out a couple of times.

-So...

-Why were the police called?

The first time was because he'd shut me out of the house

and I couldn't get to the kids,

and he dragged the kids out of bed and everything.

He wouldn't let me in to get them,

and I could see them all, sort of like, crying

and trying to get to me and he wouldn't let them.

It was horrifying,

because one night he woke us up at midnight

and then he'd take us downstairs into the living-room,

then I'd just hear them two shouting.

Sometimes we were woken up in the middle of the night and he'd,

and be dragged downstairs just to see it.

We'd had two quite heavy discussions,

the first one was when I found out that she'd hired a solicitor,

and I said, "Are we having a divorce?" And she said, "No."

At that particular argument, the police turned up

because, it got a bit, there was just a bit of shouting, there was...

This is what I didn't understand,

it was just a bit of shouting between the two of us.

I just wanted it all, it all just to end, really,

but it never would, it would just carry on.

I didn't feel comfortable being there for the children,

or myself, I never knew, if I did go to work,

if they would all be there when I got home or not.

So I went into a refuge, a women's refuge.

I don't think he understands domestic abuse doesn't mean you've been hit,

I think that's what he thinks it is.

And I think that's what he thinks he's been accused of,

and I've never, ever said that he's hit me.

I would, if anybody had hit me,

I would've gone a long time before that.

From the point of view of keeping the family together,

perhaps I should have given up work and done everything he said

and we'd all still be there, plodding on

and there's almost no doubt about that in my mind.

But I would have no, no freedom at all to do anything.

And I'm not really sure that's really,

I felt that I'd lived,

existed enough and not lived enough over the previous years,

but I don't really think that's, that's on, not really.

Because Keith could come and go as he pleased and do whatever he wants,

why can't the rest of the family?

I still had no idea how and why Dawn had left. Um...

So we get in the court room, the next thing I know,

there's a Court Order stating that the only way I'm going to get to see my children

is through a Contact Centre.

But because I pushed the point very hard,

I was able to get alternate weekends with Victoria,

and I had Victoria from six o'clock in the evening on a Friday

to three o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday.

So Victoria and I were able to build a...

phenomenal father-daughter relationship.

That relationship didn't last long.

One night, Keith was spotted letting the tyres down on Dawn's car.

The police were called and Keith spent a couple of nights in a cell.

Eventually the charges were dropped,

but the family court stopped his weekend visits with Victoria.

That was three months ago.

And now Keith is on his way to court again.

Dawn was unhappy about him taking his older children

to the Contact Centre and felt that the type of contact

Keith was having with his daughters should be more closely observed.

This morning, I'm going to Southampton County Court,

because there's a request from Dawn's solicitor

and, presumably, Dawn herself to restrict my access to my children.

Although Dawn is represented in court by a lawyer,

Keith has consistently refused legal assistance.

He doesn't want to spent money that he feels should benefit his children.

He sometimes struggles with technicalities of the legal proceedings.

There will be supervision and watching of what's going on...

and that's, that I accept, I don't mind.

I mean, I've got nothing to hide. I've not done anything wrong,

so if anybody wants to watch us and see how well we get on,

that'll be great, it'll be fantastic.

Hiya.

Oh, not too bad.

The court ordered that the kind of contact

Keith and the girls have should change from supported to supervised.

The judge already agreed with me

that I pose no threat whatsoever to the children.

The full practical implications of this

are explained to Keith on his next visit to the Roberts Centre.

-Hi.

-I'm Katie.

-Hello, Katie.

-The Children Services Manager.

-OK.

-You've heard of me, and I've heard of you.

-OK, fair enough.

I've just come to speak to you, because you've been back to court

and you're gonna move up to supervised contact.

No, that's not correct.

What you have now is supportive contact,

and we won't be able to have somebody listening

into your conversations whilst you're here,

so CAFCASS have said it's going to be moving to a supervised contact,

in which case means the process will be quite different here.

-Oh, that's not on. That's seriously unfair.

-Right. OK.

If it's the only way they can see the children,

with the children feeling safe and comfortable,

then surely it's got to be better than alienating them completely.

But I just hope that there is just a way that they can eventually

feel comfortable enough to go and see their Dad

without doing it through the Contact Centres.

You'd have two workers observing you while you're here,

and they would make factual notes and observations on everything they see and hear,

so they'd need to see and hear everything the whole time...

That's absolutely fantastic, that bit.

And then we give you, at the end of the session,

the children leave as they do now,

you have your 15 minutes, you leave and within ten working days,

you get typed up factual observation notes, which go to all parties.

So in that respect, that's really good.

Everyone then has a written format of what took place.

Well, then that's wrong, because I don't get the atmosphere,

-the opened atmosphere...

-Right.

..and the children don't get the open atmosphere.

The quality of your contact would be the same.

It's a playful room, there's still enough activities,

there's air-hockey, all the different things you could be doing,

it's just in a different room, without the other people around.

Well, I totally disagree,

because, straightaway, the children seem,

feel different about the environment,

-they've been, they're very happy in that room.

-Right.

Listen, if you've got to do it that way, let's compromise,

-let's make sure that my children don't lose out.

-Right.

Let's have it for half an hour, half of the time you're listening,

and then half the time, we get a bit more freedom.

Well, that would be out of my hands. That depends on CAFCASS.

People usually would come in at a higher vigilance

and then move their way down to the lower vigilance

as relationships progress and contact progresses.

It isn't so often that it then moves back up to a higher one,

but sometimes that's because there's still a lack of trust

from one of the parents to the other.

I think in that instance there's an issue they feel

some of the conversations are inappropriate and, of course,

that can't be monitored in supported.

I've got absolutely nothing to hide.

You know, this all started

because my elder children wanted to see their sisters.

They came on January 2nd and it was a beautiful occasion,

and at the end of it, Dawn made a complaint, which is not fair.

-Right.

-I'd love Dawn to get on with her life.

Why doesn't she get on with her life

and let the children get on with their life?

We all ought to have an opportunity to love one another.

I love my children to bits.

I'm a very lucky man, I've got lots of children,

but I am not getting enough opportunities to see them

and love them, and treat them as beautiful children.

Children should be allowed to play outside when it's sunny and warm.

But the whole point of being in a Contact Centre

is there are restraints on you, aren't there?

-Sorry, I'm coming across as a bit aggressive.

-It's OK.

-I'm not interpreting it that way at all.

-OK.

-All right?

-Cheers.

-Shall we go back in?

-Yes.

-Ready for the girls?

After talking to Katie, Keith rejoined his daughters

for the last of their supported contact sessions.

Where do Hindus come from?

I don't know, that was a year ago.

-OK. Does anyone remember?

-No.

-No.

-Part of education is to remember things.

-I know.

What we've got to learn over the next few weeks

is how to cultivate your memory.

How's school going along?

-Boring.

-Oh, Samantha!

I'm excelling in maths! There!

-Huh?

-I'm excelling in maths, there!

It's now been 12 months since Dawn and Keith split up.

Although it's not ideal for Keith to see his daughters in a contact centre,

at least they're maintaining some kind of a relationship.

In Britain, one in four children has no contact at all

with their non-resident father.

..get a letter for...

Oh, I get you, yes.

I just made up a word!

RATTLING

Shall we start a new game now and...

Yeah, we'll start.

Go!

-Is taupe a word?

-It is, actually.

-Yes.

That's the whole purpose of this game is to actually find new words,

and why would we want to find new words?

I don't know.

Any ideas? Have you got an idea?

Nope.

-Have you ever heard of the word vocabulary?

-Yes.

And what's vocabulary? Vicki, can you tell me what vocabulary means?

-I don't know.

-Do you know what it means, Samantha?

-Mmm...

-Am I boring you?

HE LAUGHS

In an ideal world, eventually, it would be nice to think

that he could have the girls, maybe not for a whole weekend,

if they weren't comfortable with it,

but so they're happy to go out with him,

albeit for just a couple of hours.

But until they're comfortable, I can't let them go.

Can you put E on the end of go?

And what would...

-You need to have an S.

-Goes. Yes.

You could do gong, but you can't... No, actually, I mean,

if it was available you could do it, but it's not available, is it?

My Mum and Dad split up when I was young and I saw my Dad once a year

my whole life, you know, for a couple of hours.

But, you know, OK, I only saw him once a year,

but I still, you know, feel that I know him a little bit,

rather than having no contact at all and not knowing him at all.

It's been almost a year now.

I've had such little contact with Samantha and Nicola.

It's sad, because I don't know them as well as I used to know them,

and that really hurts me.

No, I can't do any of that, darling.

But I think they would be proud to, to be with me as their Dad.

I know Victoria, you know...

..if she, if she knew it was possible...

You know, I think she'd want to come and live with me.

Immediately.

LAUGHTER

I do try to keep them positive and try not to be negative about Dad.

I don't really want them

going through the whole of their childhood thinking, you know,

bad things because that's the vibes they've got off me.

They've got, that's why I want the contact there,

so that they can make their own decisions.

So...

..that's how I'd like to see it. Move on.

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