Gay and Under Attack Reggie Yates' Extreme UK

This programme contains some strong language.

'Being a British guy in 2015 is not easy.

'21st-century pressures are changing...'

No way!

'..the way we live...'

Women are seen as superior to men.

'..the way we love...'

If you are a Muslim, you cannot be gay. It's as simple as that.

'..even the way we look.'

-Is that silicone?

-Yeah.

-This is mental.

'In this series,

'I'm travelling to the extreme edge...'

HE YELLS

'..of modern British masculinity.'

I mean, what is your body going to be like at 30?

-I'll be lucky to get there.

-If you know that, then what are you doing?!

'In an era of gay rights, marriage, even parenthood,

'some Brits still struggle to accept homosexuality.'

A woman and a woman, and a man and a man, I just don't believe that.

The male, the female, even the animals, they are like this.

'And some call being gay a decision, a bad decision.'

I'm sorry to cut you, but you're comparing homosexuality to stealing...

-I'm not equating it, I'm not equating it.

-I know. But you're comparing.

'But for those who feel they have no choice,

-'the effects can be devastating...'

-He kicked my bedroom door open.

He was like, "I want you out of my house by midnight."

And we didn't speak for three years.

'..leaving gay men under attack from their own community...'

Sometimes I'll have bottles thrown at my head.

A lot of people saying, "Oh, you batty man, go die."

'..and even their own family.'

My own mother said to me,

"If you murdered someone... I'd still accept you.

"But you being gay, I can't accept you for that."

Gay marriage became legal in Britain in 2014, but in some black

and Asian communities, homosexuality itself remains taboo.

South London has the largest population of black men in the UK.

And it's my home, so it seems like a good place to start.

I'm going to meet a guy called Max today in his barbershop.

Now, if you've ever been to a black barber's, you will know that

it's the best place for debate, it's the best place for shit talking.

And talking about something like homosexuality,

in a black barber's, for me, will stir up some real honest answers

and potentially start a conversation that I've never had,

or heard, in a place like this.

-Max.

-What's going on?

-How are you doing?

'Max's parents are from West Africa, just like mine.'

What age would you say you realised you were actually a gay man?

Um..

To be honest, I guess deep down I always knew in the back of my mind,

but it wasn't up until the age of 18 that I accepted it within myself.

One day I kind of just...

I don't know what the trigger was, I just kind of woke up

and I was like, "Yeah, this isn't working for me. I'm gay."

How long did it take you to go from that realisation to actually

approaching that conversation with your father?

Well, I... I didn't actually have that conversation with my father.

-You didn't?

-No.

-Right.

-One day the pastor of the church came up to me.

She asked me if I was gay.

And at this point in time my philosophy was, "I'm not going

"to tell people, but if somebody asks me, I'm not going to deny it."

And I said yeah. And then she...

-She asked me if my dad knew.

-Yeah.

And I said I hadn't told him yet.

And at the end of the conversation, she said to me,

"If you don't tell him, I will."

-So what, she went on to tell him off the back of you not taking that week to tell him?

-Yeah.

And how did he react?

It wasn't great.

He kicked my bedroom door open, gave me this long ten-minute lecture,

and he was like, "I want you out of my house by midnight."

And we didn't speak for three years.

'Max tells me they now talk just two to three times a year.'

-It's fair to say my father doesn't know who I am right now.

-Yeah.

Based on your experience, what would you say is most commonplace when

it comes to West African parents, and how parents react to that news?

Do you know what, I think a lot of...

A lot of people from Africa

-are very religious.

-Yeah.

And I think that's where it starts.

Excuse me, where are you from?

OK. And how long have you been here in the UK?

16 years.

OK, that's your little boy, he's getting his hair cut, right?

What is your attitude towards homosexuality?

For instance, if your son came out as gay, how do you think you would react?

Excuse me. Excuse me, brother.

It is fairly obvious what your religious beliefs are.

But culturally, I'm really interested in your point of view.

First of all, where are your family from? What's your background?

-My parents are from St Lucia.

-You're West Indian?

-Yes.

-Were they born there and came over?

-Yes.

-And you were born here, I take it?

-I was born here.

-And how old are you now?

-I'm 30 now.

-You are 30 years old.

What are your views on homosexuality?

You to your way, me to my way, but me...

I don't agree with this one.

A lot of good comes from men and women, you know, being together,

brother, you understand?

Not to put it like this way, but even the animals,

they are like this.

You understand, like, the male, the female,

even the plants are like this.

What would you do if your daughter actually came home

-and told you that she was homosexual?

-I mean...

To begin with, I'd be heartbroken.

To begin with, I'd be heartbroken, personally.

I would have to hope maybe it's a phase, it's something...

Does that mean that you believe that homosexuality is something

-that a person chooses?

-People are choosing to become...

homosexual.

What would you say to that?

I think it's almost...

And no offence to you, but it is probably the most ridiculous thing

anyone can say, that someone would choose to be gay.

If you look at the world we live in, being gay isn't...

It's never been a good thing, it's never been something easy,

so why would...why would anyone, at any age, wake up and say,

"Do you know what, I want to be a homosexual,

"so the people in the street can throw rocks at me,

-"and so that I can be rejected by my family"?

-I don't know.

Because obviously, you could be with a woman.

That relationship may not have worked out,

maybe she done your head in, maybe this... You know, like,

she was a bad woman, she oppressed you.

She made you feel low.

All this stuff. But there's many out here, there's many out here.

The good one may have come after this one.

Do you think that your versions of happiness can exist side-by-side?

I think so. It's like if you...

If you go to a restaurant with somebody,

and one person wants to order pizza, but the other person wants to

have chips, what would make one person happy is the chips.

What would make another person happy is the pizza.

You can sit at the same table, and we can eat.

We can probably be in the same restaurant,

but he will have his table there,

and he will be, you know, doing his thing on his table there.

And I will be on my table over there.

I've always sort of said that the attitudes towards the LGBT

community in the Afro-Caribbean community are massively different

based on generation.

In talking to Ibrahim, I realise that it's not necessarily

the case for everyone.

Ibrahim is only a couple years younger than me and his mind-set

couldn't be any more different, even though he was born and raised here.

It's hard to ignore religion in any discussion on homosexuality.

Especially among black communities in the UK.

Seven out of ten black Britons come from Christian homes.

And over a quarter of all churchgoers in London are black.

Until the age of nine, I was one of them.

My very faint memories of going to church were Pentecostal,

so, you know, it was lots of singing, lots of dancing.

There were a lot of people catching the Holy Ghost.

I'll never forget Auntie Lynne catching the Holy Ghost and breaking a chair. That was a good time.

We are going to a Seventh-day Adventist church,

which I've never been to before, so I don't actually know what to expect.

Seventh-day Adventist followers believe in a literal

interpretation of the Bible. And they practice what they preach.

No smoking, no alcohol and no gambling.

But does that list include being gay?

-How are you doing? How are you doing?

-I'm fine.

-You all right?

I'm here to meet Pastor Michael Mbui, is that him there?

Is that his picture?

-Yeah.

-Ah! What's your name, sorry?

-Alan.

-Alan.

Alan, nice. And what are you handing out here? You didn't give me one.

-Oh, sorry.

-Why didn't I get one, Alan?

-Because you were talking to me.

THEY LAUGH

-Oh, there you go. Hello. Pastor Mbui?

-Pastor Michael.

-Michael Mbui, how are you doing, I'm Reggie?

-Michael "booey".

-Michael Mbui, how are you doing?

-I'm very fine, thank you.

-Nice to meet you.

-Thank you for having us in your church today. I appreciate it.

-Thank you.

-When are you going to be up...

-I'm not preaching today.

Today I'm just a supervisor. The young people did the programme today.

Right, OK.

'Pastor Michael has a young team that he's training up.

'The man leading today's service is Pastor Andrew.' Nice to meet you too.

-Just out of interest, how old are you? You look...

-I'm 27.

-27?

-Yeah.

And you're going to be up there running things today?

Ah, not running things, but just giving a little humble word, man.

So how long have you been doing this, how long have you been preaching?

To be honest, I've been preaching since I was 16 years old.

I left the church and I came back. You know...

When you say you left the church, what does that mean?

Like, in the sense where you grow up in church. And even though I came

here one day a week, during the week

-I was, you know, otherwise occupied with other things.

-Such as?

You know, girls, you know, money, drugs, you name it.

Living in that area in London,

it's almost impossible not to get involved in them things.

-OK.

-We need to get the service running.

-Yeah, no problem.

-We need the preacher in here.

-A preacher that can talk a lot is a good thing, surely.

That's what you want, isn't it? Nice to meet you both.

# Oh give thanks unto the Lord

# For He is good

# Yes, He is good

# Oh give thanks

# Unto the Lord... #

There is quite a lot of young people here.

There's quite a lot of people under the age of 25 here,

and I imagine that he's probably a big part of that.

My sermons are not... This is just me, like it or leave it,

I'm a honest person.

I'm breaking down the wall on seeing God, how he's presented.

People outside, the only God they see is you.

And if we show them that God is like this,

"You can't do this and you can't do that." And, "Look at you,

"you're going to hell." If we show them that that is what God is like,

then they are not going to want... Don't miss this now.

They are not going to want to come to the place where God is.

And now God gets the blame for our misrepresentation of him.

Andrew isn't what I was expecting.

He doesn't talk like the pastors I remember

and feels like a typical young guy from South London.

And the theme of his sermon, tolerance and acceptance.

Because I, Andrew Aaron Asher Fuller,

if you didn't know my name,

that's my name, and me, I'm being honest,

I have fallen so far from grace many a times in my life that

I can't come to you and look down on you.

Pastor Andrew was amazing, wasn't he?

I don't think I've ever seen a pastor that young speak to

a congregation this mixed.

And he spoke to parents in a way that I've been speaking

to my mum for years.

And I think it really resonated with the people here.

It's pretty much done now, the service is over,

people are leaving and Pastor Andrew is shaking everyone's hand

so I'm going to get my handshake and maybe have a chat with him too.

But everyone wants to shake Andrew's hand.

So I grab the chance to have a quick word with the head pastor over lunch.

Hello, hello.

I've been told to come for some lunch, what do we have today?

This looks amazing.

Am I the first person to come up? Has no-one eaten yet?

-It's all right.

-No, no, no, I can't be that guy.

-It's all right.

Why would you send me there first?

The whole room's hungry and you send me up there and I'm like,

"Yeah, where's my plate?"

-We want to have some soup first. Get some soup for us.

-Got it, got it.

If your daughter, for instance, were to come out,

would you still have a relationship with her, do you think?

In terms...

I think in the home setting we have a clear understanding

of what is acceptable.

I may be able to point out to you, "You are my child, I love you,"

but if they were to choose that lifestyle,

then they wouldn't be able to live with us.

Membership of the church is a privilege, not a right.

When you become a member of the church, you are committing

to a particular way of life that is informed by scripture.

If you, along the way, choose to...

..to lead a life different from that, you can't be part

of an Adventist faith community.

So far, so traditional.

But Pastor Michael is from an older generation and moved here from Kenya.

Maybe the younger Pastor Andrew, who was born

and raised in London like me, thinks like I do.

Something that gets sort of whispered about in church in my limited

experience, and definitely talking to religious friends I have now,

is attitudes towards sex.

-Yeah.

-And issues like homosexuality.

-What do you believe?

-So I don't believe...

And this is saying it as blunt as possible.

I believe we have to go to marriage. I sincerely believe, you know...

-Heterosexual? Because gay people can get married now.

-And that's my point.

The truth of the matter is, my sincere belief is that

when I have a woman and a woman and a man and a man, no hatred,

no animosity but I just don't believe that.

Mother and father are vital in society.

So it's a traditional family set-up that you believe in?

Yeah, I strongly believe that. With all my heart, this is not half...

I strongly believe that.

Acceptance in this church, at least, only seems to go so far.

The delivery might be different

but, fundamentally, Andrew believes the same as his elders.

Erm...

There's almost...

There's almost

a slim to nought chance of you being accepted

by the church if, when you come to a church and your pastor is cool,

he's got this pretty edgy, crazy background,

he's in his 20s and even he can't get past that point.

It's estimated that one in ten people are gay in the UK.

And 1 in 300 are transgender - the T in LGBT.

So if it's tough being black and gay,

I can't help wondering what it must be like to be black and trans.

I'm on my way to Burton-on-Trent to find out.

I've never actually met a transgender person before and I'm really

looking forward to meeting Tallulah and hearing her story.

Because, I mean, we're not exactly in the biggest of towns

and in the biggest of cities, which instantly throws up its own

issues but, as well as that, the fact that she is of mixed race

and the fact that her father is of Caribbean descent,

I'm really keen to be educated on what her life is actually like.

KNOCKING

-Hello.

-Hello.

-Hey, how are you doing?

-I'm good, thank you.

-Tallulah, nice to meet you.

-You too.

'Tallulah's parents separated when she was three,

'so she lives with her mum and grandma Glynis,

'who is still coming to terms with a new granddaughter.'

Nice to meet you, Glynis, Reggie.

How is it having Tallulah as a house guest, then?

Oh, he's all right. "She's all right," I should say.

She still can't get to grips with pronouns and everything.

I was going to say!

It's very, very hard what you've got to do.

-Yeah.

-Just getting used to the pronouns and everything.

..calling him, you know, Tallulah.

It's pretty hard to ignore the fact that there is

the entirety of your youth on this little shelf over here.

My grandma's obsessed with me as a boy.

There I was about 15, I think, and that was literally

just before I came out at school, about my,

at the time, the sexuality I was.

-So that's them two photos.

-Sexuality "was"?

Yeah, because when I was at high school,

I didn't really have a choice other than to come out as gay

because there was no kind of education as to what being

transgender was about, so nobody understood it.

So my only option was to come out as gay because I was so feminine,

so I had to come out as gay just so people would get off my back.

Right, but at that point you were attracted to girls?

No, no, no, I've always been, in my head, a straight woman

but to everyone else at the time, because I was attracted to guys,

everyone was just like, "Well, you must be gay."

It was after I left school that I came out as transgender

and started living as a woman.

This is how I came out about being...

-Just in a national newspaper(!)

-..my life as a woman. Yeah.

This is it. There's me.

It was the easiest way. I couldn't go round every single person,

so I just thought, "I'm going to come out in the..."

-Well, it's better than a group text, innit?

-Yeah, exactly.

All right, what tea's up? Can I get a brew on?

A brew, yeah.

See, this is a massive indicator of how good a host you are,

-how good your brew is.

-I think I'm quite a good host.

-Oh, really?

-Yeah.

-All right.

-Apparently Libras are.

Because I'm a Libra.

-So what were you called before?

-I was called Aaron before.

Aaron.

Don't be shy, moment of truth. No pressure.

I'd say 7.5/10.

Seven and a half?

She looks disgusted.

I think it's a ten, it's a really good ten.

I'll give you an eight.

It may just be the water round here, you're not used to it.

-Where are we headed?

-To the garden.

'Now that we're away from her nan, there's one question

'I've been dying to ask Tallulah.'

Not to be massively intrusive, but you say that you haven't

had your boobs done but you seem fairly together in that area.

-What do you do?

-I'm on hormones at the minute, I'm on hormones.

My boobs are probably about an A.

But I wear like a C bra

and then stuff it with these sticky chicken-fillet things.

Right.

-But, yeah, it gives me quite a realistic bosom, I think.

-Yeah.

So what kind of guys do you date now?

I always end up getting with white guys

but I always get approached more by black guys.

They'll say to me, "Oh, I'd go there with you in, like, four years' time

"once you've had surgery but I won't go with you now

"cos you've got a dick."

-That kind of thing.

-Is there a big black community here?

I wouldn't say there's a big black community in Burton

but there is a black community

and it's very... Quite a hard thing for them to get their head around.

It's very taboo, isn't it?

On the drive up here I realised just how Asian this area is.

There's a lot of Muslims and a lot of Sikh people.

-How do they react to you?

-Not very well, to be fair.

I do get quite a lot of death threats from the Asian community.

How do those death threats come?

-To your face? To the door?

-Oh, yeah, to my face down the street.

I'll be walking down the street and I'll have bottles

thrown at my head, a lot of people saying,

"Oh, you fucking batty man, go die."

Literally saying everything that you could think of to try

and get a reaction out of me. And I just don't give in.

Why did you choose not to react to that?

Just because I'd probably get beaten up if I did react to it.

And I can't really afford to have my face being broken.

I'm not totally surprised Tallulah

has had grief from some in the local Asian community.

Some Muslims struggle to accept gay people, let alone transsexual ones.

Few were willing to talk about it on camera but there is one online

and it turns out that he's gay himself.

Homosexuality is OK and is not wrong.

You can't change your sexuality.

No matter what you do.

The man in the video is Sahil Ahmed,

a 23-year-old student from East London.

Maybe he can shed some light on how his fellow Muslims view gay people.

Have you always been in this bit of town? Did you grow up around here?

No, I didn't grow up around here.

I grew up in Waltham Forest, so I moved here like a year ago.

Basically since I moved out of my parents' house and stuff.

-At what age did you realise you were gay?

-Well, I mean...

The age I realised I was gay was like literally last year.

Age of 22. So that's when I actually came out to myself.

And the reason why it took so long is

because my religion taught me that being gay is not a thing.

I was pretty much born into actually a very kind of strict form of Islam.

I was basically brought up believing that the West is, you know,

the enemy, that the UK is at war with Islam.

-Even though you were living in the UK?

-Yeah, even though I was born here and I was living here.

I was basically, like, all the non-Muslims are the enemy,

they will destroy Islam. And I really believed that.

At your most extreme point,

what would your view on homosexuality have been?

Well, my view would have been that it's disgusting, it's evil

and what you do to gay people is that you

throw them off a tall building and you stone them to death.

And I also kind of believed that I deserved being gay

as a punishment from God because I'd done something evil in my life.

Wow.

-All right, I'll be your basket man.

-Yes, thank you.

You get what you need.

Sahil no longer practices his religion.

Fridays used to be prayer day

but today he's having friends over instead.

-I think cookies are a good idea.

-You want cookies?

Cool, go for it, there you go.

He's forced to keep the location of his student flat

a secret from his family.

Coming out was just the beginning of his ordeal.

What was it that made you decide to leave home?

Basically, when my parents realised I was gay...

Did they realise or did you tell them?

The way they found out is that they...

Using the router, they checked my internet history, erm,

and when they checked that, "OK, he's into other guys."

Erm...

-Conclusively.

-Yeah, conclusive.

So then basically they called me back home. My dad basically said,

"I know the secret that you've been keeping from us."

That was the most dreadful, fear-inducing moment in my life.

He's my dad but he believes that gay people should be killed,

should be stoned to death.

-Including his own son?

-Including me, yeah.

In the Pakistani community, there's a very strong shame factor.

You know, there's the whole thing about honour.

So, for example, my own mother said to me,

"If you murdered someone, I'd still accept you, but you being gay,

"I can't accept you for that, I can't except that."

Was there ever a conversation about curing your homosexuality?

Did that ever happen?

Oh, yeah, that was actually the main reason why I ended up

leaving the house.

They basically said, "The only way you can stay in this house is

"if you agree to be exorcised, to get the demons out of you."

They were convinced that the reason why I'm gay and the reason

why I was doubting religion was because I was possessed.

For, like, the next two months they would recite the Koran over me,

make me bathe in holy water.

At one point...

I almost took my own life in my room.

That was when I decided, "You know what?

"I can't stay in this house because if I stay here

"I'm probably not going to be around for much longer."

Sorry, they were out of champagne. So we've got orange juice.

How does that work for you guys?

'Sahil moved into student accommodation.

'He hasn't spoken to his family for over a year.'

How important has this circle of friends become to you?

The reason why I'm here, actually alive, is because of my friends

and if it wasn't for them, then I don't know where I'd be.

But Sahil's past still haunts his future.

I think sex right now is a bridge too far for me.

I would be OK with kind of like a romantic relationship with

another guy but having sex is something that kind of...

I'm not sure if I'm ready to go into that.

If I see two guys together, kissing or something,

I'll have like this emotional kind of immediate homophobia.

It's been so deeply indoctrinated in me

since childhood that it's just hard for me to kind of weed that out

and get rid of that and shake that kind of thinking off.

I think the most surreal thing about Sahil's story is that it

actually happened here in London.

I'm flabbergasted that someone is having to go through an exorcism

because their parents are disgusted by their nature,

by the fact that they are actually a homosexual person. He's now alone.

He no longer has a connection to his family and, you know,

the thing that seems most painful for him

is losing that relationship with his mother and his younger siblings.

That's just really sad. All down to the fact that he is being himself.

Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the UK.

There are now over 1.5 million Muslims under the age of 25.

With numbers like that, it's hard to ignore the influence imams can

have on young minds like Sahil's.

We contacted over 200 mosques to find someone to speak with me on camera.

In the end, only one imam agreed.

Muhammad is 29 and from Edinburgh but he's having to meet me

independently, without the support of his mosque.

So, Mohammed, what are your beliefs when it comes to homosexuality?

My beliefs are the same beliefs that my religion has.

When it comes to these issues, obviously you go back to

the sources that you have and you try to find your answers.

OK, what would your answer be?

I personally believe that it is an unnatural

manifestation of a natural desire.

In Islam, we are told this is not something that can become a feeling.

This is something that is unnatural and if it's something that is

in you, then you can tackle it, you can deal with that.

What would you say the general attitude in your mosque is

towards homosexuality?

Honest speaking, people don't speak about it.

I've received some anonymous e-mails,

they never mention their name, probably out of shyness.

So you've had somebody at your mosque approach you about their own

homosexual feelings? What was your reaction to that?

If he really trusts Allah, if, in his heart, he has

a feeling for Allah which is more stronger than any other feeling,

then I will for sure tell him that, as a man, as a straight man,

I personally feel that I am attracted

to every single beautiful woman.

I have this urge but just because of this urge, is it justified for me

to go after every single beautiful woman that I find attractive?

You know, the people who are kleptomaniac,

-they have the urge to steal.

-So you think it's an urge?

I don't believe it's an urge but it's something that he can control.

In the month of fasting, for example, especially in the UK,

for 21 hours you're not eating and in the beginning we have struggles.

-But at the end of the month you find it very normal.

-I'm sorry to cut you

but you're comparing something like

-homosexuality to stealing and to...

-I'm not equating it.

I know, I know, you're comparing.

-You're comparing...

-I'm not comparing.

..to stealing and the urge to eat.

I'm talking about the physical things.

So what would you do, then, if your son came home and told you,

"Dad, I haven't been able to tell you this before

"but I believe that I'm actually gay." How would you react to that?

Either if he is confused, he should try and he should see that

if he can find peace and comfort or love in a woman.

If he can't, then I will tell him that

the only option he has is to live a celibate life if he can.

Scripture is one thing but real life is another.

And...

I think if you're living in the real world,

you have to question some of the things that you're not only taught

but some of the things that have been left behind for you to learn from.

But Mohammed's views are in line with all

major Islamic organisations in Britain.

On these streets, some interpret those views in extreme ways.

This shocking video of Muslim men harassing a clearly

intimidated passer-by was shot right here in East London.

Following this incident, three local men were sent to jail for using

threatening language and violent behaviour.

There are obviously some strong views within the Islamic community,

no matter what the imam says.

This is Whitechapel in East London, where the video was shot.

We're making a programme for the BBC on attitudes toward homosexuality.

Are you happy to chat about it on camera?

-No, no, no.

-Why not?

-No, not on camera.

-Why is that?

-No, no.

-Are you sure?

-Yeah, yeah, definitely.

It's a major sin as far as Islam is concerned.

-But it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam.

-Mm.

So, technically speaking, yes, you can be gay and be Muslim.

What everyone does in their private home is up to them,

-I'm not going to judge.

-Can you be gay and Muslim?

I don't think so because if you are following your religion,

you need to follow everything in that religion.

If you are a Muslim, you cannot be gay.

If you are gay, you cannot be Muslim. It's as simple as that.

Being Muslim, you can't be a gay or a lesbian.

If you can't follow a very tiny rule,

then you are not in the religion.

Have you got a couple minutes to chat to me on camera? No?

Mate, you got a couple minutes?

'I've heard some signs of tolerance on the street...

Excuse me, sir, have you got two minutes

to just chat to me on camera? No?

'..but the Imam's line does seem to hold true for some Muslims as

'the rest of Britain moves towards a greater acceptance of homosexuality.'

In 2007, less than half of the UK population backed gay marriage.

Now 60% are in favour.

But support remains lowest among Asian and black men.

I don't think the reasons are just religious.

It's really funny thinking about the relationship between music and

culture because they sort of blur. Definitely in my experience, anyway.

When it comes to the idea of misogyny and homophobia,

particularly in black music, I don't know, I sort of get quite...

I don't know, I get a little funny talking about it because, whether

I like it or not, the music that I love definitely, in bits of my past,

has reflected a view that makes me uncomfortable, if I'm totally honest.

Jamaican dance hall in particular is known for its masculine image

and, in the past, some homophobic lyrics made news.

One of the records that comes to mind is Log On by Elephant Man

and there's TOK, Chi Chi Man.

These were songs that were massive when I was like 21, 22.

When I hit play on the video and watch it here

and now, it just makes me kind of cringe that in my early 20s

I was singing along to lyrics like,

"Log on and step pon chi chi man".

# Log on and step pon chi chi man

#Log on from yu know seh yu nuh ickie man... #

For those who don't understand,

chi chi man is slang for "gay person" and log on is a dance move

and the end of the lyric is to step on that person.

When I think of this TOK record that, again,

was a huge hit over a decade ago,

it has lyrics which are essentially saying that

if you go to gay bars, if you have gay friends, we are going to

step on you, you should be stepped on, you should be stamped out.

You know, looking at this video now, I'd go as far as to say that

records like this normalised homophobia and, in some cases,

I guess, for a lot of people, it almost trivialised it.

And if your parents think that this is OK,

and if you're dancing to this in a club,

why wouldn't YOU think this is OK?

Growing up around these attitudes and these hit songs, it's not

hard to see why so few black man come out in public.

But Max, who I met at the barbers, has promised to show me

where some young gay people do feel free to be themselves.

-Max.

-Hey.

-How are you doing, man?

-I'm good, and you?

-Can we talk about the hat?

-Sure.

What's the deal with the hat? What happens when the mask comes on?

-That remains to be seen.

-Oh, wow, OK.

And what can you tell me about a night like tonight?

You've invited me down. What is this? Where are we?

We are at Urban World Pride.

Events like this are special and important for young

gay and lesbian people that are coming out, simply

because, when they're at home, they may not necessarily feel comfortable

letting their family or their friends know that they are gay,

which effectively means that they have to hide who they really are.

But, when they come here, they can find a surrogate family

that will accept you for who you are

because we're all the same, you know.

Enough talking, time to see things for myself.

# Come, come closer tell a secret, boy

# Dip you like a dumpling in a cup of soy

# Man a crispy don't mean to be rough

# But I really can't stay, nah can't get enough

# Puff, puff, puff and I'm back to di heat

# Loving it, living 128 beat

# Hey, hey! #

# If you think that you gon' knock me off the top

# Your wife in the back seat of my brand-new foreign car

# Don't act like you forgot... #

It's unbelievable to witness this parallel world.

There's guys daggering guys in there. If you know what daggering is,

I mean, you can put that together yourselves,

even if you don't know what it is.

There are guys daggering guys in there.

That doesn't happen!

Well, clearly it does. It didn't happen in my world until today.

I mean, there's a desi room up there.

There is a room full of Asian men who I can't even get close to

right now with the camera because they just don't want to be seen

and the reason that they don't want to be on camera is fairly

obvious - there is so much paranoia.

I mean, we've had to come here because literally whenever

we pull the camera out, people are running in different directions.

JAMAICAN MUSIC PLAYS

Then, suddenly, the music changes.

It's Jamaican dance hall.

I'm about to do the thing that I hate people doing to me most

-and that's talking to you while you're mixing, sorry.

-I'm used to it.

-It's Mark, right?

-Yeah, Mark.

-Reggie, nice to meet you, man.

When it comes to our parents' generation, homophobia was

pretty much commonplace and things are changing for the better

but there still is that weird energy towards homosexuality.

To be really honest with you, as a fan of black music, it is

reflected in the music. It's there, it's hard to ignore.

And you're playing black music all night.

How do those two worlds sort of go together?

For me, personally, I grew up with

reggae, bashment, dance hall

so whether I was gay or not, it's part of my culture.

I've grown up to this music. So take away the words, the music,

the energy I get from the beats, I couldn't deny it.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm not going to let things like, "Step pon chi chi man,"

or any of those kind of lyrics really bother me.

I'm there to dance, I don't care what they're talking about.

I know that certain people do have a problem with it

but I find it's more the white community that has problems

with the words of the bashment rather than...

It's not just bashment and, don't get me wrong,

hip-hop can be homophobic, dance hall can be homophobic,

like you said, it's a culture that we've grown up with.

-Yeah, I've grown up with that music.

-Does that make it OK?

It doesn't make it OK but there's

a lot of things in the world that aren't necessarily OK but...

-So you'll overlook it, you're saying?

-I will overlook it.

What do you think the reaction would be, then,

if you played Elephant Man, Log On, in a club like this?

-They would all start logging on.

-They'd do the dance?

-Yeah.

And would they ignore the "step pon chi chi man" bit?

Yeah, it's like...

Sticks and stones will break your bones, that kind of situation.

It feels like Mark is trying to reclaim these songs.

I'm struggling to find other gay men who will speak with me on camera.

But Nicole, a 21-year-old lesbian with a Jamaican dad, agrees.

-Thank you for finding the time to chat to me.

-That's all right.

-Thank you for having me.

-No, no, no, no, it's all good.

So do you think it's easier to be a gay girl or a gay guy in London?

Can you understand how, for someone like myself,

that sounds absolutely mental?

Because I'm sure the last thing that you want is for anyone to

judge you or be prejudiced towards you.

And it almost seems as though it's ingrained

within you towards gay guys.

'Nicole is trying to deal with her own homophobia and she won't let

'it stop her coming to nights like this. They're just too important.'

There is a bubble around that venue

that people are walking into and it's safe.

It's weird, it's a bittersweet sort of thing.

You come out of a night like tonight feeling really positive

that there is somewhere for young black men to go

but, at the same time, you think,

"Wow, there are a lot of people in 2016 who are still scared

"to be seen being who they truly are on camera."

But one person who isn't afraid to be out is Tallulah.

And she's keen for me to meet her dad.

But, first, hair.

-I think that one there.

-This one?

-Yeah, that one.

-God!

Oh, my God.

Look at me. Doesn't look too bad, actually, does it?

-Spice up your life!

-Yeah, Victoria Beckham.

But it would definitely show off me Adam's apple.

Sometimes with my wigs I get them really big and long so that

I can kind of like disguise it from the side, do you know what I mean?

When you are shopping in here and you do see other black women,

how do they react to you?

They just stare a lot, they just look a lot

and just whisper among themselves.

"Oh, my God, that's a man."

"Oh, my God, really? No, it's not."

And then they'll be like, "Yeah, look, look at her throat."

And then they'll be like, "Listen, listen, listen,"

and that's the kind of whispering it is.

How far away from being who you want to be do you think you really are?

Erm...

I'm a long way because I've only just started my transition,

so it's like four years on the waiting list

unless I can get 12,500 grand together to have my vaginoplasty.

And five grand to have my boobs and two-and-a-half grand

to get this done, then I'm a very long way.

Tallulah is confident no-one will be able to tell she once was

a man when all the surgery is done, including a vaginoplasty.

It looks so good how they do it.

Like, it literally looks like a normal vagina and, yeah.

But the recovery is really long. It's like six months in recovery.

You have to sleep with a dildo inside you for six months

as well, yeah, to stop it from healing.

-Oh, my God.

-Yeah.

Surely there's another way of doing that.

No, there's no other way, otherwise it's just going to heal back

together, isn't it? Because it's man-made.

-It's like a scar or a cut or a wound.

-Long time.

-But, erm...

Some people would probably be into that.

Yeah, at least it would be quite deep.

REGGIE LAUGHS

Oh, my God!

Oh, my God.

I'm not mature enough to have this conversation, clearly.

Tallulah's dad Simon has flitted in and out of her life.

He lives in nearby Derby with his new partner.

-You all right?

-How you doing?

-You good?

-Reg, yeah, nice to meet you.

-Hello, you OK?

-Simon, right?

-Yes.

-How you doing, you all right?

-You OK? How are you?

Hello, Reggie, nice to meet you.

Simon, Tallulah was just telling me

that you haven't seen each other in a long time.

Long, long time.

Looking good, isn't she?

-Do you want to come through?

-Yeah, yeah, please.

Simon has spent the last four years behind bars.

So did you find out when you were actually inside?

I was sitting there reading the newspaper

and a guy was commenting, he was like,

"Flipping hell, look at these.

"Looks real, who doesn't look real?" And that, yeah?

So I was just looking and every single person was like,

"No, she's a real woman.

"No, he's got a bit of a chin," and whatever.

You know what I mean? So I looked and I just went...

"That's my kid."

I was like, "Yeah." I was like, "That's my kid."

I thought to myself, "I wonder if it's my fault for not being there."

See, everyone sees it as a fault, don't they?

-No, no, no, on my behalf.

-It's the parenting gone wrong.

I was looking at it in a way where I think to myself,

"I wonder if that's because I wasn't around much,

"she's grown up around her mum, April."

-Yeah.

-She's grown up around a lot of women and I think to myself,

"Maybe if I was there more,

"would she have wanted to be more of a masculine person?"

-Do you still think that way now?

-No, not at all.

I'm really surprised at your reaction.

What it is is, my parents are like old-fashioned

Jamaican, Christian background, Christian beliefs,

so that's the belief that I was brought up with but because

I grew up in areas which is predominantly white,

I was in boarding school

and only two black people had ever been to that school ever.

So you know how it feels to be different?

Yeah, to be segregated and to be treated different from other

-people, I understand that as well.

-Yeah.

-You know?

It all rolls into one but that helped me understand

why she is the way she is. At the end of the day,

what it boils down to is how a person feels comfortable.

And the other thing is, I mean, she's my blood, so...

Were you surprised at your dad's reaction?

I was because I've been judged

so much by the black community as it was, I thought,

"My dad's just going to be another one."

-Simon, thank you so much for having me.

-Not a problem.

It's been a real pleasure meeting you

and thank you for having me in your home.

-Best of luck...

-Thank you.

-..with everything.

Hopefully get to see you again soon.

Yeah, definitely. Come to Pride on the 12th,

-which is in Derby.

-There's a Derby Pride?

-Yeah.

-It's a date, I will see you then.

-Yeah, definitely.

-Lovely to see you.

-Thanks again, all right?

-Bye.

-Take care.

Tallulah's dad really surprised me today,

given his history and their distant relationship.

There is nothing stereotypical about Simon's views.

I never thought he would be so accepting.

And so I can't help

but think about Sahil, who I met at the start of my journey.

He, too, is still coming to terms with his sexuality

but he's doing it alone without his mum or dad.

So I'm inviting him to join me at Pride next week.

Let's hope there are no Muslim anti-gay protesters there,

as it wouldn't be the first time.

Just doing a teeny bit of research.

There hasn't actually been a march as part of Derby Pride

in quite a few years because the last time a march happened

in 2012, people were arrested.

There were people protesting, there was hate speech,

some actually held placards which had things written on them

such as, "Homosexuality = freedom gone too far,"

"Homosexuality = a crime against God,"

and, "Islam is the ultimate truth."

Things such as "scum" were screamed, "Gays will go to hell,"

which just sounds ridiculous to me.

I mean, here we go, "Gays, gays, gays, we hope you die of Aids."

To think that grown men were actually chanting this

and thought that it was acceptable, to me, is mind-blowing.

This is happening in the UK

not 30 years ago, three years ago.

One of the Muslim protesters was successfully

prosecuted for using abusive language.

I'm on my way to Derby to attend my first ever Gay Pride with

Tallulah and I really hope that Sahil shows up.

I desperately want Sahil to come today because I think him

being one of many, being part of the majority

and not feeling different would be an incredible

thing for somebody like him who's only been out a year.

He's just not taking my calls.

I suddenly feel like a really annoying, angry girlfriend

chasing someone down.

Chances are he's changed his mind about coming.

-How's that for timing? How are you?

-Hello, you OK?

-You look great.

-Thank you.

I thought I'd make a bit of an effort,

-with it being my hometown Pride.

-Exactly.

This will actually be my first ever Pride and I'm sort of looking around

because I was expecting to see a little bit more sort of celebration.

-We're not in town just yet.

-Right.

But when we get into town, you'll probably see it all more.

Yeah.

I think we can go that way.

We might have to walk down here first to get down there.

-It IS today?

-No, it is.

-It's definitely today?

Yeah, well, it should be.

-It's this way.

-So this is it, we're here, right?

Yeah, this is it, this is the tiny community in Derby.

Right.

This isn't what I was expecting at all.

One thing I was expecting was to be here with Sahil

and to see this through his fresh eyes as well.

But he's not here. He still isn't responding and I'm starting to

really believe he's not going to turn up today, which is a shame.

But, at the same time, I mean, just sort of looking around,

in a weird way, I can understand why he might not necessarily

feel that he fits in even here because...

I mean, it's a very white Pride, isn't it?

And outside of myself and Tallulah,

there's one other person of colour here.

So definitely Tallulah is a minority within a minority

within a minority today.

THEY PLAY: The Final Countdown by Europe

In Derby, almost one in five people are black or Asian,

so if one in ten people are gay, by rights, in Derby alone,

there should be 5,000 homosexual men and women of colour.

-It seems like there's a lot of people stopping to watch.

-Yeah, there is.

What do you think they're thinking?

They're probably thinking, "Wow, what colourful people."

Although I spot many black and Asian faces in the crowds of shoppers,

they're just here to watch, not take part.

Until I spy just one other person of colour actually marching.

Excuse me, sorry to interrupt,

one of the most interesting things I've found about today is how

few Afro-Caribbean or ethnic minority people there are at Pride.

Why do you think there's such a small number?

Because it's literally, what? Four people?

-Three people?

-Yeah, I counted, I counted you.

"Oh, there's another one, a fresh one!"

What would the...

-You're West Indian, the black side of your family?

-Yeah, yeah.

What would their attitude be towards your sexuality?

Well, to be honest, I'm not with that part of the family but

from experience of what I've seen I think it would be total rejection.

-Totally.

-Meanwhile, from the white side of your family...

-They're a bit more tolerant. A lot more, in fact.

-Why is that?

I think white people are, they think they're not but they are.

Derby Pride is now in full swing.

Derby Pride, let me hear you scream!

And I get talking to the Asian man I spotted earlier.

-Hello. Hey, how you doing?

-All right, and you?

-I'm Reg, what's your name?

-I'm Wahid.

-Wahid.

Nice to meet you.

OK, not to pry but I take it you are a gay man yourself?

Are you a Muslim gay man?

-Bisexual.

-Bisexual?

Why do you think you're the only Asian man here today?

Because people are scared to come out.

I mean, even I'm here because I don't care any more.

I'm over 60,

so I've had my life, so I don't care what people think about it.

Maybe this is why Sahil and other black

and Asian people have stayed away.

Too much to lose, too much to fear.

Whilst Derby Pride might not have been as big as I expected,

there's also been no opposition.

So it's almost time to leave Tallulah and prepare to head home.

But not just yet.

It's Sahil.

-I thought you weren't coming!

-Well, I'm here now.

-Good to see you.

-Good to see you too.

This is the first time I've ever been to a Pride event.

-Have you ever been to one before?

-I've never been to one before.

-This is my first time as well.

-Right, what do you think?

It's amazing, it's absolutely, like... I like the atmosphere.

Have you ever been around this many people who are out before?

Never, like, even most of my friends, like, my friend circle,

most of them...they're straight.

Just how comfortable do you feel in an environment like this?

-I feel... I do feel very much out of place, to be honest with you.

-Why?

Because...

I don't want people to...

I know people will be looking at me and be like,

"Wait, is this guy here to blow us up or...?"

No! Do you really think people...?

No, no, I mean, to be fair,

I mean, how often do you see, like, a guy with a beard who looks like a

proper Muslim, who is a Muslim, in like an LGBT Pride event?

Like, now I'm here with you, with you guys and that's fine

but, alone, I wouldn't stay here very long.

All right, come on.

Sahil is convinced everyone sees him as a Muslim first

and a gay man second.

But is that really true?

# I can't hear a word you say

# I'm talking loud not saying much... #

Derby, come on!

# Ricochet... #

I don't know the words.

# Fire away, fire away

# You shoot me down

# But I won't fall

# I am titanium... #

Come on!

# I am titanium. #

CHEERING

So we're going to keep with the upbeat songs...

Well done, man, you were good.

-What's your name?

-James.

-James, nice to meet you, my name's Sahil.

-Hello, Sahil.

-You can call me Sam.

So I've just stepped away thinking Sahil's going to follow me out, but

he stayed in there and it looks like Sahil is having the time of his life!

And I think he might have made some friends.

Go on, Sahil!

I'll nick him for one second.

I'm just going to nick this kid for one second. Come here, you.

You look like you're having the time of your life.

I am, I wasn't expecting this!

-So you look like you've made some new friends.

-Yeah, I did.

I, er, wasn't, like, kind of expecting to stay

here very much, like, after but...

Hang on a second, you're going to stay?

Yeah, I wasn't planning on but now I am. Yeah, yeah.

What, so you're going to hang back

and you're going to have a night out in Derby?

-Pretty much, yeah.

-Look at you!

Based on what you've told me in the past about how you feel

and how you've reacted to gay people, being in an environment like this

now feeling the way that you do about yourself,

how are you reacting to men holding hands and them kissing?

I've had this residual homophobia in me for a long time but now,

today, here, I'm not sure if I still have it

but it kind of hasn't reared its head.

Listen, enjoy your night, have fun and get back in one piece, all right?

I will!

-I'll try, I'll try, I'll try.

-Get in there, go on.

-Take care.

See you later.

He's this close to running back.

# Uptown funk you up... #

To experience my first ever Pride with Sahil was awesome

because it was his first time at a day like this and his journey

has taken a massive, massive leap in a positive direction, I think, today.

He really is embracing who he truly is

and he is not suppressing it any more.

That can't be anything but positive.

Now, on the other hand, the negative side to today, I think, was that

an event like this didn't really have many people that look like me there.

To be exact, I think it was maybe four.

It says a lot about...

how comfortable people like me feel to be

who they truly are publicly.

# And I can't change

# Even if I tried

# Even if I wanted to. #