Playing with Poverty

One in three children in Wales is now living in poverty.

That's 200,000 young people.

You haven't got no electric, you haven't got no food in the cupboards.

And you have to, like, choose sometimes

if you're going to have gas, electric or food.

The problems associated with poverty

are not confined to one street,

one area or one social group.

I want the best for my kids.

I feel a failure, I don't feel like a good mother.

It touches the lives of thousands of people.

But not always in ways that we readily understand.

Some people don't know they're really living in poverty,

cos they don't really know about it.

There is a commitment by governments in Westminster and in Wales

to eradicate child poverty by the year 2020,

but no-one really believes that target is going to be achieved.

-I was saying that I can't do this, I need help.

-Yeah.

-And then people said, "Well, tough."

-Yeah.

"We haven't got the resources.

"We're going to make you beg, and then we're still going to say no."

This is the Children's Commissioner for Wales,

and he's going to try and find out

what really lies behind the statistics

by spending a week on the road with us.

Aaaaah!

-They are in now.

-They're in.

And what he finds may surprise us and challenge our perception

of what we think poverty is in today's Wales.

-No, get lost!

-Can you open the door?

Those who aspire to lead us are now being challenged

to be more honest about their promises to take children out of poverty.

When people talk about children living in poverty,

I find myself, as the Children's Commissioner, asking myself

whether politicians are brave enough to confront the totality of the problem.

For me, this is a journey of discovery,

but I suspect that what we'll find is something deeply uncomfortable

about this little country of ours.

I believe that there is now in Wales a cause for deep shame.

The shame and the stigma attached to poverty.

And, by extension, the way that that poverty inflicts itself

and deprives the most vulnerable in our society -

our children and young people.

Wales' First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has said...

An aspiration that has yet to be realised.

Child poverty now affects one in three children in Wales.

That's 200,000 young people.

90,000 are living in severe poverty.

Wales has the worst record for child poverty in the United Kingdom.

The promised journey out of poverty has gone into reverse.

Well, I'm on my way to Swansea,

to link up with a man who will lead us on this journey,

and a man who believes that we should be doing a great deal more

to raise awareness of the effects of poverty

on a whole new generation.

That man in Keith Towler, the Children's Commissioner for Wales,

'who agreed to spend a week on the road with us.'

-It's a nice day.

-Yeah. We got there in the end.

-Yes. That's good.

-I'll leave it to you now, then.

-OK.

'This journey is Keith Towler's attempt

'to highlight the complexities and subtleties of a problem'

that at times seems almost invisible and difficult to quantify,

as more and more families slide silently

into what is currently defined as poverty.

In researching this programme,

the number of people who have said to me, "But what is poverty"?

People often refer to...

The researchers often, statistically, would often talk about

people being below 60% of the average income levels of the country,

or the median income levels.

A child is classed as being in poverty

if the family income falls

below 60% of the median

or middle income level,

which is set

at about £25,000 a year.

Severe poverty means a couple with one child

is living on less

than £12,000 a year.

You know, one of the things I'm hoping from this week, from this programme,

is that we can illustrate that, actually,

children, young people and families are living in really difficult circumstances in Wales,

making pretty critical choices about what they eat, when they eat,

how they keep their children warm, how they care for their children.

And the decisions and the priorities that people are making

illustrate, I think, the kind of challenges that people face.

We are talking about our society, our community.

And if you believe the one-in-three statistic,

that has to mean that all of us,

in our daily lives, will know families who, statistically,

are children and families living in poverty.

-And I think we need to address that head-on.

-Yeah.

Nowhere is the effect of poverty and deprivation more evident in terms of numbers

than on the great urban estates of Wales.

And some of them continually figure prominently

in the league tables measuring multiple deprivation.

The Blaen y Maes estate in Swansea,

just a few miles from the Commissioner's office,

is just such an estate.

You can see they're kind of different

almost immediately in your surroundings.

It's like an island, it's like its own...

And by definition, that could be isolated.

And it's isolated, absolutely.

'Here, a charity called Spark is working on the front line'

trying to help families and individuals realise a sense of self-worth

in the face of multiple problems associated with poverty.

So where are we going now?

-We are off down to one of our families, based over, towards Cutler.

-Yeah.

'Spark's Chief Executive Owen Pillai is taking us to see one family

'where the father is working,

'but which finds itself struggling to bring up two young children,

'one of them suffering from autism and learning difficulties.'

Good morning.

Hi, there. How's it going?

How are you?

'John and Jody Higgs' finances are at a low ebb.

'In fact, they are broke.'

-Hiya.

-Everyone is looking at us now.

'Their annual income is just over £14,000 a year,

'and their priority here is to financially cater

'for the dietary needs of their autistic son, Dylan.'

-He can't have milk.

-Yeah.

He's got to get special milk for him,

and it's lucky that we actually get it on script, to be honest,

-cos otherwise it would cost us £75 a tin like that.

-Wow!

It's like the special sausages we can get for him.

When they were first out, they were a pound.

Within a year, they've gone up, they've doubled in price.

-So how do you budget for this?

-We just work round it then.

And then, that takes a big chunk of

-what we can have out for the month then.

-Yeah.

-You know, be it trips and such things, you know.

-Yeah.

Is there a time... Sorry, is there a time

that comes during that month where you've literally run out of money?

-Now.

-You've run out now?

Now, only due to the fact of we actually get free dental care,

but there's no-one taking on at Swansea so we've got to pay.

And we have just had to pay now £200 just to have...

His teeth looked at.

When is payday?

The 7th of next month.

HE CHUCKLES

-OK.

-So...

-So you've got two or three weeks...

-To go.

-..to go.

So it's like I'm taking food out of my child's mouth.

-That's how it feels.

-That's how it feels, yeah.

We've just basically got to grin and bear it, really, and...

The kids have... You know, we are all fed and clothed

and they're happy, and that's the main thing at the end of the day.

So, and that's all we worry about, really.

And, you know, and they are, you know, happy, so... Yeah.

The Higgs family have not only run out of money,

they've also run out of ideas on how to make ends meet.

Thanks a lot. Take care. All the best.

Their combined income of wages and limited child care benefits

are not adequate to cover their bills

and they don't expect to get out of the poverty trap any time soon.

The mother has just described herself as being on the front line.

I don't know how that family will manage looking into the future.

They are not looking at the future, of course,

they're looking at what's happening today and what will happen tomorrow.

And, you know, that's a family who are in work, you know.

Dad's working, he's working really hard. He's doing shift work.

There are probably not enough hours in the day

to do the kind of work that he needs to do to get the money that he needs.

So there's no long-term plan going on within that family

and other families living around here.

They'll be thinking about today.

Meanwhile, the politicians are busy blaming each other.

According to the Welsh Government, the UK Government's planned welfare reform measures

threaten to push another 6,000 children in Wales into poverty.

According to the latest Welsh Index Of Multiple Deprivation -

that's the official measure of poverty in Wales,

which divides the country into almost 2,000 areas -

the Blaen y Maes estate is the 19th poorest area in Wales.

The poverty index divides Wales into what are prosaically termed,

Blaen y Maes is one of these 2,000 deprived areas

and accompanying it are statistics which are depressingly reflective

of the estate's unenviable status.

Income levels - 16th poorest in Wales.

A lifetime of low income may mean poverty in old age

as well as poverty in childhood.

And accompanying the poverty figures are equally depressing statistics

showing that Swansea has the highest percentage of homeless people in Wales

who have approached their council for help.

Sitting high above the city,

and only a short distance from Blaen y Maes,

is another estate with multiple deprivation problems - Townhill.

MUSIC: "Have A Nice Day" by Stereophonics

From a distance,

it looks like the kind of place you'd go to for a house with a view.

And it has that, all right.

But the reality on the ground is very different.

Townhill looks down of the trappings of out-of-reach wealth.

But what these people lack materially,

they more than make up for in terms of community.

And at the local primary school,

something very interesting is happening.

I'm euphoric because it's my baby cousin's birthday soon.

I'm happy because my... I've still got my puppy and...

Every day, pupils who come here engage

in what's called restorative practice.

Cos sometimes, if you have a bad day it affects your work and everything, doesn't it?

Essentially, it's an opportunity for each child

to share with fellow pupils their thoughts and feelings about...

Well, just about everything.

I am confused cos I had a dream

that I bought a new fish and it was green.

It's a chance to park their troubles

before lessons and the process of education begins.

Fantastic. Well done, boys and girls. Well done.

Hello. Can I come in?

ALL: Yeah.

With Keith Towler observing,

we asked this class of ten-year-olds to discuss the subject of poverty.

Thank you for letting me come in to your circle group.

If somebody was to say to you,

"What do you think poverty is or living in poverty?"

Would you have thoughts about what that meant?

I think some people don't know they're really living in poverty

cos they don't really know about it.

-They try not to show it, do you think that?

-Yes.

-And it's very edgy. You haven't got no electric,

-you haven't got no food in the cupboards.

-Yeah.

-And you have to, like, choose sometimes if you're going to have gas, electric or food.

-Yeah.

And if you didn't have electric, you couldn't have food in the fridge,

-and if you had no gas, you couldn't have water, heat and that.

-Yeah.

Has that ever happened to you? No? That's good.

-Not with gas, we can afford it.

-Yeah.

Sometimes people in the shop say,

"Oh, I'll pay you back next week," to buy stuff.

What do you think?

I think poverty is when you borrow money

but you don't have the money to give it back.

Right.

So you borrow money but, when it comes to paying it back,

and you haven't got the money in your pocket,

that's when you find yourself in a difficult situation.

What happens then? How do people feel then, do you think?

You'd feel quite scared, cos you don't know what's going to happen to you.

You might not have the money to give it back, and you might not have the money for a couple of months.

And you might, like, they might take your house off you or something.

-And your kids might end up without anything.

-Yeah.

Well, the thing about children

is that they don't know much about their parents.

They don't know that they are paying house bills,

they are paying for gas.

They are doing everything for their children, but they don't know it.

Actually, one of the things that worries me

is that children get quite stressed by their situations

cos they can see when their mum or their dad is unhappy about something.

You know, you can see it, can't you, when that happens?

And that's difficult.

I think some people live in poverty because it's hard to be a parent,

to pay all the bills, to get all the money.

-You have to work all the time, it's really hard to do that.

-Yeah.

And so, what you do then is make sure that you behave all the time,

and that you're lovely children and... Yeah?

-And that you never wind your parents up because they're stressed out as it is, is that right?

-Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Perfect.

I think child poverty starts off when you can't pay the bills and stuff,

cos then it leads to, like, you're living on the streets and stuff.

Out of the mouths of babes comes the real sense of what it feels like to be poor here.

Statistics and bureaucratic jargon do not adequately reflect

the emotional consequences for children.

'It's only when the statistics manifest themselves in human terms

'that you get a real sense of the deprivation and loss which comes with poverty.'

Hello.

Good?

Was Mrs Phillips...?

Melanie, an out-of-work single parent living on the Blaen y Maes estate,

depends on benefits and a housing association home

to provide food and shelter for herself and her ten-year-old son.

In all the drawers, it's OK.

She suffers from depression and has been out of a job for 14 years,

but wants to return to work.

However, child care costs are too high to make this a realistic proposition.

And instead, the weekly routine revolves around benefits and debts.

What sort of money are we talking about? What kind of benefits...?

Right. I'm entitled to DLA because of mental health problems.

-That's disability living allowance, yeah?

-Yes.

-On a Monday, I get my income support as well.

-OK.

So it works out, I guess, £300 on a Monday.

-Now, that seems quite a lot to some people.

-Yes.

-I've actually gone into debt.

-OK.

-So, I mean, er...

Today, now, for example, I've just paid off Bright House.

-Now, that was £50 I paid off this morning.

-OK.

I've also got another bill that I've missed a few weeks.

-So I've paid another £50 out.

-Right.

-Now, I haven't got my food yet.

-I've also got gas and electric.

-Yes.

-Which came to £50.

-OK.

-£30 gas, £20 electric.

-Yeah.

-That's supposed to last a fortnight, it doesn't.

-Yeah.

I then borrowed £20 off somebody. I know it sound awful, but this is what's happening.

You know, it's quite typical. I borrowed £20 off somebody else.

-I had to give that back.

-Yeah.

-And then I'm left basically,

all I've got left purse at the moment now is £40.

-I have to get the shopping out of that.

-Right.

Brandon, he's... I mean, for Christmas he wanted a PlayStation.

-Now, I did get him one, but I'm also in debt because of it.

-Yeah.

-I want my son to grow up to be a decent human being.

-Yeah.

-You know?

-To be able to take his children, you know, abroad or whatever.

-Yeah.

-And see a little bit of life. I want the best for my kids.

-Absolutely.

-And I'm not... And I feel a failure because of that.

-You feel a failure?

I feel a failure. I don't feel like a good mother.

There's a lot of jargon around with child poverty, you know.

I mean, I think Carwyn Jones is absolutely right to maintain the focus of his government on...

You know, everything he talks about in terms of economic regeneration, getting investment into Wales,

it's all focused on building an economy for Wales.

Fantastic. And a lot of that is...

A lot of that is about visioning for the future, you have to keep that kind of focus.

But I would prefer some honesty and target about where we think we'll be in five years,

where we think we'll realistically be in ten years.

The 2020 target to eradicate child poverty really isn't going to hit the mark.

In fact, it would probably cheese off more people than it would please.

Urban poverty and deprivation is often stark invisible.

Rural poverty is more difficult to see, but it, too, is real enough.

Some of our politicians think about volume, population mass.

But that overlooks the fact that people living in rural areas,

you know, families in rural areas,

face the same kind of difficulties, the same kind of challenges

and the same kind of obstacles to leading a good quality of life.

And sometimes that's difficult to understand when, as you say,

you know, look around, it's not a particularly nice day today.

But look around us and you see beautiful countryside,

mountains, hills, we're not very far away from the sea.

You would think quality of life here would be very high.

Keith Towler is particularly anxious that the children of families living in rural homes

and experiencing financial problems are not forgotten.

-Cardigan.

-Here we are.

'Rural poverty is no longer confined to the problems

'associated with transport and the high cost of fuel.

'Increasingly, families are becoming more and more concerned

'about something much more basic - the cost of food.'

Yes, to get to Jigsaw. They do quite a lot of work on...

trying to alleviate child poverty in rural areas around here, don't they?

They do, yeah, they do some really, really good stuff.

In Cardigan, a lottery-funded charity called Jigsaw,

which acts as a support organisation for children and parents in rural areas,

now runs a regular healthy eating club,

whose lunchtime sessions focus on financial savings as well as the waistline.

Yes, you have to have some soup.

Increasingly, Jigsaw is serving up advice as well as free food

to families whose finances are being squeezed.

We also run a breakfast here,

-where we encourage families to come in and have a healthy breakfast.

-Yeah.

And that, the meaning behind that,

they have them in schools for children,

we wanted one for the parents, because, at the end of the day,

-they have to keep that family going.

-Yeah.

And if they haven't got a decent meal inside them...

And that's what we do. We do a low-cost breakfast here.

-In fact, sometimes is no-cost breakfast.

-OK.

As long as people are coming in and accessing the support.

-And more and more, that's what's happening.

-Yeah.

Because people can't afford it.

'The situation is made even more complex

'if a family experiences a sudden change in financial circumstances,

'which sees them slide down the financial scale

'from affluence into what is officially defined as poverty.'

-The Bridgers' bungalow.

-The Bridgers' bungalow.

The Bridgers, who live just a few miles north of Cardigan,

in a relatively affluent part of the county,

may not look like a family struggling financially.

Hello, how are you?

'But they are today's new poor in Wales,

'with an income from benefits which they calculate to be at least 60% below the benchmark average.'

-On my foot.

-Did you have a good time at school?

'Just a few months ago, the Bridgers and their children were enjoying the good life.

'But then, their financial circumstances changed dramatically.

'And they learnt just how quickly you can move form affluence to hard times.'

So today they've had a glass of milk and some fruit.

They had fruit and milk, yes. It's costing us £15 per child per week.

'Chris Bridger had been working as a long-distance lorry driver in Australia

'and earning up to £1,000 a week

'when he dislocated his ankle stepping down from his lorry,

'and that's when their world changed.'

We'd go out for Sunday lunch and go out to the cinema.

-Not just us.

-Yeah.

-And then, on top of that, the kids, they had their ballet, their swimming.

-Yeah.

But the petrol was worse than the actual fee of going, because it was £4 a week.

-It wasn't too bad for them to go.

-Yeah.

-But the petrol was worse taking them.

Money dries up quick.

The switch from wages to benefits forced the couple to rethink their finances.

And fuel poverty, a phrase vague and unfamiliar to the Bridgers,

suddenly made an unwelcome appearance in their lives.

Fuel oil costs more than £600 a tankful,

but the Bridgers were getting through it in less than three months.

Everything to do with family finances has had to be rethought,

including running the family car

or not running it when it breaks down

and they're suddenly faced with a repair bill of £1,000.

A bill they can't afford to pay.

I mean, if you need extra money like that, do you borrow money?

We've had to borrow. We've had to borrow a few times lately, haven't we?

-Yeah, and then pay back gradually when we can.

-Yeah.

-Who do you borrow from?

-Family members.

-Right, OK.

It's the only thing we can do.

-So you haven't found yourselves using credit cards or loans or...

-No.

-No.

-You know, cos...

-No, that would be worse, wouldn't it?

The Bridgers, and Chris as the only one of ten in his family who has worked all his life,

have learned a harsh lesson in the fall from financial grace to financial grind.

-Do you want a sandwich?

-Yes.

-"Yes, please."

'When we go shopping now, we try for it to be about £60,

'60 something pounds a week.

'Before, we just put in what we wanted, and it was well over £100.

'Sometimes double - £120.'

He's even been online looking at the, you know, cheaper places.

Cos when you're buying nappies in a big quantity,

it can make a difference, you're saving sometimes half the amount.

The family hope that their flirtation with poverty is just that.

But there is no certainty that Chris will find another job when he is fit again.

Kiss your little brother? Kiss your little brother?

If he doesn't, at a time when there's another baby on the way,

the family will remain in the poverty trap it now finds itself in.

What's happening,

in terms of this recession that we are all pitched into,

is affecting us all, isn't it?

-Absolutely.

-Everybody are having to take stock.

-Everybody.

I mean, I think the critical point in all of this is that

this isn't happening to other people.

This is happening to us.

This is Wales, these are our communities, rural and urban,

and it's affecting all of us,

and it's making us all think through, you know.

One of the moments again, she said to me,

and it sounds a bit of a cliche, but she meant it when she said it.

"Every penny counts, every single penny counts."

Towards the end of our week-long journey,

I began to realise how much in the dark I had been

about the complexities of the journey we were making.

For me, the tour of Wales continually threw up surprises

and altered and challenged my preconception of what poverty means.

There was just one last destination on our journey through Wales.

To Anglesey, to visit a family which is among a group of families

which is all too often forgotten and neglected.

These are the families with disabled children who are living in poverty.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind

and all the kind of research that's done on benefit levels and poverty

with families with disabled children,

that they're disproportionally in a much more difficult position than other families, you know.

And there's all kinds of sort of statistical evidence

that shows that nearly half of families with disabled children

are incredibly pessimistic about the future.

I do have a concern,

particularly around the UK Government's welfare reform agenda,

because any way that I look at what's currently proposed,

all I can see is a situation where benefits are actually reduced

rather than actually recognising that these families are in particular difficulty

and actually need ongoing support, not reductions in benefits.

A recent report found that families with disabled children living in poverty

experience social, emotional and financial isolation,

'which causes anxiety, depression and sometimes breakdowns.'

The house is just here.

'It is remarkable then that the person we are about to meet is coping with all this and more.'

-Kerry, this is the Children's Commissioner.

-Hi.

-Hi, pleased to meet you.

-And you.

-Yes, good to see you.

-Right, let's go in and...

-Have you got a name?

-Keith. Sorry. Yeah, I've got a name, yeah.

-You go in and I'll join you now.

'Kerry Page is the mother of two teenage children

'suffering from a genetic condition called Fragile X syndrome.'

It is the most common cause of inherited learning disability

and Kerry Page has not one but two teenage boys with the condition.

Hiya!

'George, who is aged 15 and Sid, 13,

'are day pupils at a special school in Anglesey.'

George, no! Don't do that.

-Hi, George, I'm Keith.

-Aaah!

Good to see you.

HE LAUGHS

-That was very polite, George, thank you.

-Yeah, it was brilliant.

You must be Sid, yeah? Hi, Sid. Are you all right? Good to see you.

'Children with Fragile X often have difficulties with behaviour.

'They are often anxious or shy with people they don't know.

'And sometimes display unpredictable behaviour.'

Hello. How are you? Nice to see you.

And it's only when you meet them that you begin to appreciate

what life is really like in this household minute by minute.

-What was that?

-She said have a nice weekend! Come on.

-Thank you!

-Git!

-Come on.

-They're in, then?!

-They're in.

I'm not though, look, he's shut me out.

Here we go.

I'll have to go round the back and round the conservatory then.

-No! Get lost!

-Can you open the door?

It only took a few minutes for George to be persuaded

to let his mother enter the room.

And the whole incident was quickly forgotten.

But it served as an example of what passes as routine in this household.

If I go in his room he chucks things at me. "Get out!"

So will that click, from chucking things at you,

being angry and upset, will that just click back?

Does it kind of go from high to low as quickly as that?

-He does show remorse, George.

-Right.

And it's very sad actually because he'll punch himself

in the head and says, "I'm idiot, I'm idiot", which...

-Breaks your heart?

-Yeah.

With such overriding emotional concerns to deal with,

it seems inappropriate and insensitive

to talk about the family's financial problems.

But they are a constant worry

and further compound an already difficult situation.

In one week alone I've had a seven-month-old bed smashed up,

that's £300.

That's his fourth in two-and-a-half years.

The mattress is on the floor.

I hate him sleeping on the floor but I don't really know what else to do.

Each bed I buy him he breaks and I think each time I've cracked it.

I got him a mid-sleeper this time, so I thought it's too high for him

to bounce like that and too high for him to sit on the edge of the bed

and bounce which makes the springs go.

But he managed to lie down and bounce so he beat me.

You spelt "occasional" wrong.

Kerry Page refuses to be a victim

and she invariably bounces back, taking everything

that happens in this house in her stride.

But she never quite knows what will happen next.

For the moment, Sid, the youngest boy is content to settle back

and quiz the Commissioner about the kind of language he uses.

Me? No, I try not to. You don't swear a school, either, do you?

-I don't swear.

-Of course you don't.

Never. Your nose is growing.

-I'm gonna see the guy on Monday.

-You're going to do what on Monday?

-See him.

-See who?

Gwyndaf? The headmaster?

-No.

-Dafydd.

-You'll see him on Monday?

-Dafydd.

-Dafydd, the old headmaster?

-No. My driver.

-Who?

-Driver, he's my driver.

-Driver? Dafydd.

You just said his name was Gwyndaf!

Hello, my friend. All the time. He says, hello, my friend.

He's your friend?

-He says, hello, my friend.

-He does, doesn't he?

Kerry is separated from her husband and is currently studying to become a teacher

but for the moment relies on benefits.

She too finds herself and her children in a poverty trap.

There's always something they need

and obviously I like to give them a holiday and things like that.

Anything they do have costs a lot more than it would

for a non-disabled child, therapies and things

that a non-disabled child wouldn't need.

This is what I have to do quite often twice a night

with the plastic, then he's got the plastic mattress cover there,

then the plastic sheet and then a normal sheet.

Then his quilt and quilt cover.

It's a bit tiring keep doing that all the time,

I must be honest, it gets on your nerves.

Whenever he wets the bed

you can guarantee his quilt will be wet as well.

So I have to wash his quilt so I have to have

an industrial machine. You can't get it in a normal machine.

At the very lowest point in her role as mother and carer,

Kerry Page considered killing her two boys and herself.

You won't be able to have crisps if you're not coming down.

The family finances make it hard, if not impossible, for her to plan

future provision for her two sons.

Her greatest worry now is that she will die before her boys,

leaving them destitute.

My biggest fear is obviously dying

because I need to live one day longer than my children, you know.

That would be the ideal.

I need to live to be about 130-odd and I'm working on it

but it's unlikely.

I think that's the big fear for anybody that's got a disabled child.

-Jerk!

-We met earlier, didn't we?

-Jerk.

Someone who was reluctant to join in the discussion was George,

who left us in no doubt that it was time for us to leave.

-Hi, George. You all right?

-Go away, jerk!

Keith's the Children's Commissioner, he's on your side.

-No, he's not.

-He is.

-Go away!

You can tell Keith anything you want to tell him that you'd like.

-Get lost!

-I think that's a clear message.

I think it's the moment to get lost.

Sometimes it's blunt but sometimes it's true.

I don't know when he gets it from!

You can only just say it takes your breath away, doesn't it?

Yes. It does.

-I defy anybody not to feel exhausted just listening to that.

-Yeah.

Everything about it was - sounds like a cliche -

but it was just so powerful.

Yeah, and I think she was just a bit too polite to ask you

the question that she probably did want to ask you

which is, so what are you going to do about it?!

I found myself sitting there thinking,

"What am I going to do about it?"

My job in trying to hold people to account, is to say,

hold on, get real with this, what am I going to do as the Commissioner?

Well, I need you as politicians to hear what I'm saying.

Because actually what you've got proposed, what you're lining up

is going to ruin people's lives and you need to take responsibility

for improving things.

The responsibility which Keith Towler refers to

rests in large part with politicians at Westminster and the Senedd.

With his words ringing my ears I headed for Cardiff Bay.

Child poverty transcends political frontiers

and although the Welsh government

cannot control tax and benefit income going into households

it has made a commitment to the children and young people of Wales

in signing up to the United Nations Convention

on the rights of the child.

-Hello, David.

-How are you?

-Long time no see.

-Nice to see you.

'And the person principally responsible for delivering

'those rights and hitting the self-imposed target

'of eradicating child poverty in Wales by 2020 is Gwenda Thomas,

'the Deputy Minister with responsibility for children.'

Deputy Minister, can I ask you first of all, some years ago

the Welsh government set 2020 as a target

for the eradication of child poverty.

Is that still your target?

We are still committed to that target of 2020.

We are also absolutely committed to ameliorating

the impact of poverty

and also doing all that we can to avoid people

going into long-term poverty so we are committed to those three aims.

Does it concern you that many people

in this field are not as confident as you of reaching that target?

In fact, most people we speak to say

there is no hope of eradicating child poverty in Wales by 2020.

In a civilised society, I believe it has to be a top priority

and it is for this Welsh government.

We are the first to legislate, of course, on child poverty

and we will use the legislation to develop delivery plans

both for the Welsh government and local government and our partners.

I do think it's going to be difficult

and we have to take into account the welfare reforms

and the cuts by the coalition government.

I have got concerns about that and, of course, the economic downturn.

But isn't there a difference between an aspiration,

which is what you seem to be indicating, and a target?

You may wish this will happen

but it's not the same as saying it will and that you will achieve it?

What I'm saying is we can't do everything

but we will do everything that we possibly can -

and we are clear about that in the programme for government -

and we will do everything, as we've started doing,

to reach those targets.

It is going to be difficult, I'm not denying that.

But how many children are going to benefit as a consequence

of these various measures?

Because you know there are 200,000 children

living in poverty in Wales right now.

One in three children.

How many are you going to help?

We are going to try and reach as many of them as we can

and that 200 figure could be less, of course, because the data...

-200,000.

-Yes.

But that data is given to us to the nearest 100,000

so we don't really know...

So it could be 300,000?

It could be 150,000 but I have no access to those figures.

So what do you base your plans on, then,

if you don't have access to the figures?

We have got our own ways of measuring

and I think clearly identifying need

by local authorities identifying the need locally,

and I think local authorities through the community plans

are best placed to do that.

Why is it then that the Children's Commissioner

who accompanied us for a week and looked at the problem for himself

said at the end of it that he would prefer some honesty

from politicians and in his view,

he didn't feel that saying the eradication of child poverty by 2020

is really what you should be doing? You should be getting more realistic figures based

perhaps on five-year cycles and ones that you can actually achieve.

This is the Children's Commissioner saying this, not me.

I'm not arguing with the credibility of the Children's Commissioner.

-I have great respect for him.

-He is asking for more honesty.

But I think we are being honest in saying we will do our utmost

to reach that target and on the way to ameliorate the impact of poverty.

We know that all the levers on this are not with us here

in the National Assembly, we know about taxes and benefits,

income levels...

But you've always known that and surely you must have factored that

into your plans when you set the target

for the eradication of child poverty.

You can't blame the Westminster government now

because of measures they've taken since you started on that journey yourself.

I'm not blaming them but what I am saying is there are some moves

within the coalition government to redefine poverty.

I believe in the measure of relative poverty

and I believe that we have to look at the effects

within society of people who are relatively poor.

I think to play about with the definition of poverty

is missing the point.

Where is your anti-poverty Action Plan which you launched

with great fanfare over 18 months ago?

The anti-poverty Action Plan,

we are developing it and interestingly, what I thought...

You said you would actually launch in March this year.

You said actually you would launch it last year.

-It had the gestation period of an elephant.

-We are developing a policy.

I thought it important to work with partners in the third sector,

with the children's commissioner, would save the children, UNICEF, Oxfam...

-When will we see it?

-An independent group independently chaired.

-When will we see it?

-You will see it very shortly indeed.

Can I return to my initial question?

I would ask you to bear in mind once again that

the Children Commissioner's plea to you to be honest.

Do you really believe you will eradicate child poverty

in Wales by 2020?

What I'm saying is quite definitely that will be our aim.

-Will you achieve it?

-I can't say that.

-Why set it as a target, then?

Because of the outside forces are that affect us

being able to deliver that.

Is that in Westminster?

Yes. With the policies we've seen with my welfare reform.

-So you're impotent, you can't really do anything?

-Absolutely not.

We are not impotent. Far, far from it.

We have the power and the responsibility to develop

policies within our own remit to ameliorate the impact of child poverty.

Thank you very much indeed.

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