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-It's really old. -Andrea Macario de Oliviera. | 0:00:06 | 0:00:10 | |
It's so cute that your grandparents put your photo in the local paper, | 0:00:11 | 0:00:17 | |
and you still have it. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:18 | |
You're not going to have this any more, ever. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
-After tomorrow. -What? A baby? -A baby. -That's fine. | 0:00:21 | 0:00:23 | |
It doesn't bother me at all. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
It's for the best. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:29 | |
One in five British women will end their child-bearing years | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
without having a child, twice the number 30 years ago. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
I think we have to accept | 0:00:39 | 0:00:40 | |
-that some people just really don't want children. -Yeah. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
We all know what a pain contraception is. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
And it must be even more infuriating | 0:00:46 | 0:00:48 | |
when you really know you don't want to have children. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
The UK doesn't collect statistics for men, | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
but figures from Europe suggest a similar decline in fatherhood. | 0:00:53 | 0:00:57 | |
Now a growing child-free movement online is allowing people | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
to share their advice and experiences with each other, | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
away from the prejudice of their child-bearing friends and family. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:09 | |
After spending time on the pages and forums, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
I found a group of young people so sure they never want children, | 0:01:12 | 0:01:16 | |
they're getting permanently sterilised. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
Why do you want to go to the extreme of being sterilised? | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
I think, essentially, because I'm so certain that I don't want kids | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
that I don't want the possibility of getting pregnant. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
But with the potential for a lifetime of regret, | 0:01:46 | 0:01:48 | |
should young people be allowed to do this to their own bodies? | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
And should the NHS be supporting them? | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:02:03 | 0:02:04 | |
-I mean, I don't want to be like... -I'm dying! | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
I'm literally spinning around. I'm spinning around. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
-Yay! -Oh, my God, that was so stressful. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
I'm so stressed out, I've got back pain. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
'Last year, technology journalist Holly went public about her fight | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
'to get a sterilisation on the NHS, | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
'and her story became national news, sparking controversy. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
'She was accused of using the taxpayer to subsidise | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
'what many thought was a lifestyle choice.' | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
-Can you show me some of the comments that you've got? -OK. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
"Take responsibility for your own body. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:43 | |
"The NHS isn't responsible for your sex life, you are. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
"There are other holes if you can't keep your legs shut." | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
That's one I hear a lot. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:50 | |
You know, hasn't she heard of the back door? | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
This happens all the time. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:54 | |
But this one was only particularly notable because she made a big point | 0:02:54 | 0:02:58 | |
of the fact that she works in the NHS. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
"A&E is at breaking point, and this bird is bragging about this shit | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
"like some kind of wronged heroine. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:06 | |
"How about you take responsibility for your own sex life | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
"and contraception like the rest of us do, | 0:03:08 | 0:03:10 | |
"and stop acting like a stroppy, self-entitled teenager?" | 0:03:10 | 0:03:14 | |
I've heard that I should kill myself many times. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:16 | |
That I'm pointless as a human being, because I'm not going to reproduce. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
That I have no heart, no soul. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:21 | |
And you must get this, but one of the first questions is, | 0:03:21 | 0:03:25 | |
-"It's so drastic, isn't it?" -Yes. -"You're destroying a healthy organ." | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
I have been thinking about this, researching it, | 0:03:29 | 0:03:31 | |
and fighting it for so long, you don't make an irreversible decision | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
unless you are 150% certain. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:37 | |
What if you change your mind? | 0:03:37 | 0:03:39 | |
Because you have to factor that that could potentially happen. | 0:03:39 | 0:03:42 | |
I don't think this is ever going to be something I need to worry about, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
but in the event that that happens, there are other options. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:48 | |
And so the people who are terribly, terribly concerned on my behalf | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
that I'm going to die alone, | 0:03:51 | 0:03:53 | |
those people can rest easy that there are other ways, | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
if that comes to be. | 0:03:56 | 0:03:57 | |
But what about this indescribable feeling of being a mother? | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
Of having a child wrap its arm around you? | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
Something that you've created? | 0:04:04 | 0:04:05 | |
I mean, you're never going to feel that, ever. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
That is true. I will never get to hold a baby that I've made, | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
I'll never feel what it's like to be a mother, | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
but equally, I will never get to be a space ballerina. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
And I'm kind of OK with that, you know? | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
Life is about closing certain doors so that you can open other ones. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
Have you ever been pregnant before? | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
I have been pregnant. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:27 | |
I don't think I've ever cried so much in my life. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:32 | |
I was just crying, and crying, and crying. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
I didn't know what to do. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:35 | |
Sorry. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:36 | |
What did happen? | 0:04:39 | 0:04:40 | |
When I was pregnant last year... | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
I'm very, very much in favour of abortions being available, | 0:04:44 | 0:04:48 | |
but I personally don't think I would be able to have one. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:51 | |
So at the point where I was pregnant, | 0:04:51 | 0:04:53 | |
I was 100% sure that I was going to be carrying that baby to term, | 0:04:53 | 0:04:57 | |
and I was going to give it up for adoption. | 0:04:57 | 0:04:59 | |
It wasn't necessary in the end, you know, the baby didn't survive. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:04 | |
And I knew that people would say that somehow I had willed it away. | 0:05:04 | 0:05:10 | |
You know, that the baby had somehow felt unwanted and couldn't stay. | 0:05:10 | 0:05:16 | |
Because I didn't... It knew I didn't want to be its mother. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
Holly had been sterile for six months. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
Her story resonated with young, child-free people across the UK. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
I wanted to meet some of them who had just started that journey. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
-Hello. -Hi, Paul, I'm Poppy. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
-Nice to meet you. -Hi, Poppy. If you want to come in. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:38 | |
'People such as Paul, | 0:05:38 | 0:05:39 | |
'a 29-year-old Warhammer enthusiast from Hampshire.' | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
Paul's wife didn't want to be in the film, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:45 | |
because she was concerned about the trolling and abuse she might receive | 0:05:45 | 0:05:49 | |
as a result of their decision to be child-free. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:51 | |
Paul is a type one diabetic, a condition which can be fatal | 0:05:53 | 0:05:56 | |
if not constantly monitored, and some studies indicate | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
that type one diabetes can double the risk of depression. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
What does that say? | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
Ooh, 16.7. That's really quite high. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
So all I'm going to do is dose up a little bit of extra insulin. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:12 | |
-You mentioned that you had depression. -Mm. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
Is that one of the reasons why you also don't want to have children? | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
Just because I've got depression, | 0:06:19 | 0:06:20 | |
it doesn't guarantee that any kids I would have would have it. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
But it's an increased likelihood, | 0:06:24 | 0:06:25 | |
and I wouldn't want them to suffer that either, because it... | 0:06:25 | 0:06:29 | |
Mental health is so difficult for anyone to deal with, | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
let alone, like, people around you. Because everyone's different. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
Why do you want a vasectomy? | 0:06:36 | 0:06:38 | |
I've never really found much in the way of a parental instinct. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
If the worst should have occurred in the past and I had a child, | 0:06:42 | 0:06:46 | |
I would have, of course, stepped up to help look after it. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:50 | |
But I can't say I wouldn't resent the child. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
You've seen a GP about getting a vasectomy before, haven't you? | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
When I was 18, I went in and tried to get one. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
When I was 19, I tried to get one. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:03 | |
All the way through university and college. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
And how were you treated? | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
It's the "you're too young, you definitely don't know what you want. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:13 | |
"Go away". | 0:07:13 | 0:07:14 | |
How far along are you in the whole process? | 0:07:14 | 0:07:17 | |
Well, I've got an appointment coming up, | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
but I'm not expecting them to give me that positive answer that I want. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
So I'm looking that I'm probably going to have to fight for it. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
As I spoke to more people online, I met Leah on a child-free forum. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:37 | |
Leah suffers from depression and ME, | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
also known as chronic fatigue, a debilitating condition | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
which leaves sufferers constantly exhausted. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
Leah and her boyfriend, Phil, have both agreed not to have children. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
'Leah is looking to get sterilised, | 0:07:53 | 0:07:55 | |
'and I wanted to know why a young couple would take | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
'what some may consider such a drastic step.' | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
Did kids come up on the first date? | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
Not the first date. | 0:08:03 | 0:08:04 | |
No, I certainly don't think it was anything like that. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:07 | |
Did that come up much, much later? | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
I don't think it was ever brought up. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
How did you both know neither of you want children? | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
I think it's slightly more for Leah, in the fact that... | 0:08:17 | 0:08:22 | |
I can bear to be around them for a little bit longer. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
-And, you know... -He's very good with them, in comparison to me. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
I blatantly look like I'm trying to interact with a foreign object. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
And, you know, obviously, health-wise... | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
I couldn't physically handle one. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
I'd have to come off my medication to have a pregnancy. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:44 | |
It would affect the health of a child, | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
should I come off my medication. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
And that's the stuff that keeps me awake, keeps me pain free, | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
and helps me be a normal person. | 0:08:53 | 0:08:56 | |
And that is why I would opt out. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
I don't think I could handle it, and it wouldn't be fair. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
'Leah clearly had the full support of her boyfriend, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
'but I wanted to know what her parents thought of her decision | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
'to get sterilised.' | 0:09:07 | 0:09:09 | |
You probably know about Leah, and what she wants to do. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
-How do you feel about it? -Totally her decision. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:15 | |
Yeah. Completely hers. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
Should she accidentally become pregnant, | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
she could not cope with a baby. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
The fact that she's got ME... | 0:09:23 | 0:09:25 | |
She hasn't got the energy. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
Leah was a very, very active baby. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
-Very active. -Really, even very active is underselling it. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:37 | |
As she got older you'd hear the front door slam and she'd be out - | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
pogo stick, skates, bike, nonstop, running everywhere. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:46 | |
I think we've lost the person she used to be. | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
I don't know if it's hit Leah yet, but I think... | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
there's a sort of, I wouldn't say grieving process, | 0:09:53 | 0:09:57 | |
but you're really aware that you've lost the person | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
that they used to be, that you used to know, | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
and it's a different person who's taken their place. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
The people I've met so far were in committed relationships | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
and had arrived at their decision | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
with the full consent of their partners. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
I wanted to meet someone who was single when I heard from Vaughan. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
He let me go with him to his vasectomy operation. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
'Vaughan has Asperger's syndrome, | 0:10:24 | 0:10:26 | |
'and though he isn't in a relationship, | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
'he was extremely concerned about the prospect of becoming a parent.' | 0:10:28 | 0:10:32 | |
Can you tell me, why are you getting a vasectomy? | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
It's quite a drastic decision, isn't it? | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
It's because I am scared of the thought of having my own children, | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
and how much I would stand to lose. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
-What you mean by that? -Many people don't notice it in me, | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
but I am mildly on the autism spectrum. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
I have seen a lot of parents | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
that can't cope with kids who are on the spectrum, | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
and I wouldn't want to risk it. | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
Do you worry about how you'll approach it when you, you know, | 0:11:00 | 0:11:04 | |
start dating, when you want to be in a long-term relationship? | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
I would find it difficult to break the news, and I mean, | 0:11:07 | 0:11:10 | |
I sadly will have to. But I mean, I have... | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
There have been situations where people have actually | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
tried to force me to have sex with them. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
And I stopped myself. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
I just said, "I don't want to get anyone pregnant," | 0:11:24 | 0:11:27 | |
and I have had nightmares at night where people, | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
where I have got someone pregnant, and then I just wake up in a sweat, | 0:11:31 | 0:11:36 | |
and it is really scary. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
But you could always wear a condom, though, couldn't you? | 0:11:38 | 0:11:41 | |
Well, it's because I know condoms can fail, | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
and it was really watching EastEnders in 2009 | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
when Ronnie Mitchell secretly, desperately wanted children, | 0:11:49 | 0:11:54 | |
and I even saw her sticking a pin in her partner's condom beforehand, | 0:11:54 | 0:11:59 | |
to try and trick him into it. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
And I know I would never want to chance that. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
-So, Vaughan, good luck. -Thank you. -See you the on other side. -Yeah. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:12 | |
Vaughan was so determined to get the operation | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
that he was paying for it himself, despite his concerns | 0:12:15 | 0:12:19 | |
about it affecting his chances of finding a partner. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
With the growing community of people supporting sterilisation online, | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
there are some who are totally against it. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:30 | |
Leonora Butau is a bioethicist, a mother, | 0:12:33 | 0:12:37 | |
and specialist in the ethics of fertility and sex. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
What do you think about those people who've made themselves | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
permanently infertile because they are worried they'll pass on | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
their mental health to their future offspring? | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
Sterilisation, basically, damages a perfectly healthy working organ. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:55 | |
It destroys it. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:56 | |
It's a really drastic procedure. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
Medicine is a profession of healing, of health, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
of restoring someone to health, | 0:13:03 | 0:13:05 | |
so the very philosophy of medicine is challenged by these procedures. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:10 | |
Would you go as far as to say that | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
sterilisation should be totally abolished? | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
I would say that sterilisation and vasectomy | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
is not good for the human person. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
You know, our fertility is not a disease, it's a gift. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:23 | |
You know, something that's part of us as a human being, | 0:13:23 | 0:13:27 | |
and it has a huge stake on our overall health and wellbeing. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
We're approaching these people in a way that we feel | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
that they're beyond redemption. They cannot be cured. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
They cannot be helped. And I think that's a really, um... | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
That's a really harmful way of looking at people | 0:13:43 | 0:13:46 | |
who are dealing with all these issues. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:48 | |
Leonora seemed to believe that sterilisation | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
was a form of mutilation rather than a legitimate medical procedure. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
Later that day, | 0:13:57 | 0:13:59 | |
Vaughan called me to say tell me how he'd got on at his operation. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:02 | |
PHONE RINGS | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
Hi, Vaughan, how are you? | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
What happened? | 0:14:06 | 0:14:07 | |
Unlike Vaughan, Paul's progress so far had been successful, | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
but perhaps the surgeon would eventually turn him away too, | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
telling him it was for his own good. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
Now, you're coming in under your own steam? | 0:14:48 | 0:14:49 | |
You're not being forced into this? This is... | 0:14:49 | 0:14:51 | |
Yes, my own volition, yes. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
You've thought through the implications, | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
and you're pretty happy, the both of you are happy about this? | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
And you're not sneaking in without your wife's consent? | 0:14:58 | 0:15:00 | |
Basically, she is fully in on this as well? | 0:15:00 | 0:15:02 | |
She knows. She's fully in on this. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:03 | |
OK. I'd like to examine you first, if that's all right. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:05 | |
-Yeah. -Just to make sure that everything | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
is structurally where we think it's going to be. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:09 | |
You don't usually have any chronic issues at all? | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
I've never had any issues other than catching it in a zip once. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
-OK. -So... | 0:15:14 | 0:15:15 | |
-And the area we are basically trying to feel for is the vas. -Yeah. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
If you rub your finger over it, it feels like, just undercooked pasta. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
Yeah. Excellent. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:24 | |
-So get yourself dressed, and come on through when you're ready. -OK. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
The vas coming down is cut here, folded back on itself, | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
so that, basically, the sperm can't get back up. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
The volume of ejaculate that you produce is a little bit less, | 0:15:33 | 0:15:36 | |
but it should still be the same intensity. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:37 | |
It shouldn't affect your erectile function, | 0:15:37 | 0:15:39 | |
it shouldn't affect your orgasm. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:40 | |
-There are side effects of this. -Yep. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:42 | |
Potential risk of bleeding and infection, about 1% or 2% risk | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
for each of those, and there's a small risk of chronic pain. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
It can be weeks to months, it can be much longer than that, | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
but very rarely, years or lifelong, | 0:15:51 | 0:15:54 | |
but it's not something to embark on lightly. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:58 | |
Do you get patients like Paul coming to you who don't have children? | 0:15:58 | 0:16:02 | |
Yeah, there are a few. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
I can't say there's enough of them to be able to say, you know, | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
two last year, four this year. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:08 | |
There's not much of a trend. It's a smallish number, basically. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:12 | |
-Nice to see you. -Indeed, thank you. | 0:16:12 | 0:16:14 | |
'How do you feel now?' | 0:16:14 | 0:16:16 | |
Quite elated that I can definitely get the procedure done. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
Things have gone rather well so far. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:21 | |
'It was time to need the young person who got me looking | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
'into this subculture in the first place.' | 0:16:28 | 0:16:30 | |
Hello. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
'I first met Andie online. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:33 | |
'Andie chooses not to identify as a specific gender, | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
'so has asked to be referred to as they. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
'I went to see Andie the night before the sterilisation.' | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
Ooh, hello, kitty cat. What's the cat's name? | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
-Pepe. -Pepe? -Yeah. -Hello, Pepe. PEPE MEOWS | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
Why are you doing this? What's motivated you? | 0:16:51 | 0:16:55 | |
I don't know. I just feel like I shouldn't be having children. | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
And I don't want to, you know... | 0:16:58 | 0:17:00 | |
Mental health problems, and things like that. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
I just don't want to have to pass things on. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
I don't know. And then, obviously the work that I do, | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
I just don't want to... | 0:17:07 | 0:17:08 | |
accidentally fall pregnant. That would be awful. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:12 | |
And what kind of work do you do? | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
I'm a sex worker. So, yeah, there's more... | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
I guess more risk of getting pregnant, in a way. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
Because I'm having a lot of sex. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:22 | |
-Do you like my slippers? -Yeah, I didn't notice those. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:28 | |
I do like them. It's not My Little Pony... | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
-It is. -Oh, it IS My Little Pony. -Yeah. | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
-Is that your dad? -No, that's my uncle. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
No, I never met my dad. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:40 | |
-You never met him? -No. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:42 | |
-You've got, you know, My Pony. -My Little Pony. -My Little Pony. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
You've got...Mr Squidgy there in the middle. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
I mean, they're dolls and ponies, it's something that children have. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:53 | |
And yet, tomorrow, you're getting permanently sterilised. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:58 | |
Yeah. I'm like a five-year-old child in an adult body. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
Yeah, I guess, like, I had a really difficult childhood. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:07 | |
And for most of it I wasn't able to be a child, so I kind of, like, | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
am, like, reliving my childhood, but, like, as an adult. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:16 | |
-Do you talk to your mum? -No, no, no. My mum disowned me. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
So, no, I don't have a mother. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
Andie, do you think, you know, | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
the trauma that you experienced when you were younger | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
has anything to do with the fact that you don't want children? | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
Oh, yeah, definitely. 100%. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
I wouldn't want to have kids and they go through the same experiences | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
that I've been through. 100%. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
I'm sure I'd make a good mother, but... | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
I suppose that's not what you want. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
-You don't want to be a mother. -Yeah, I don't want to be a mother. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:49 | |
'I left Andie wondering whether their lifestyle was a result | 0:18:51 | 0:18:54 | |
'of a difficult upbringing and, if things had turned out differently, | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
'whether they would still deny themselves | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
'the chance of motherhood.' | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
The night before Paul's vasectomy, I went to meet his friends. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
I wanted to know whether they supported his decision, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:10 | |
and if they did, was it due to friendship, | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
or a belief in his own fundamental rights? | 0:19:13 | 0:19:16 | |
Bonus points tonight if you have any cards referencing Paul's bollocks. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
-Oh, I think I've got one. -Go on, Poppy. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
I bet it's going to be awful, isn't it? | 0:19:23 | 0:19:25 | |
"Before I kill you, Mr Bond, I must show you... | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
"Lance Armstrong's missing testicle." | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
THEY LAUGH | 0:19:30 | 0:19:32 | |
I think it would actually be Lance Armstrong's missing testicle. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
Yes! | 0:19:37 | 0:19:39 | |
There we go, you get to keep the black one, that is your point. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:42 | |
So what do you guys think about Paul's operation tomorrow? | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
I think it's great, yeah. He's doing what he wants to do. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
It's like, there's not a lot of people that you'll see, | 0:19:48 | 0:19:50 | |
cos everyone's like, "It's the dream - have kids, have a house," | 0:19:50 | 0:19:53 | |
all that jazz. I want kids, but if you don't want kids, | 0:19:53 | 0:19:55 | |
then you don't want kids. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
And also, Paul not being in the gene pool? | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
-Yay! -THEY LAUGH | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
So none of you guys have tried to talk him out of it or...? | 0:20:02 | 0:20:06 | |
There wouldn't be much point anyway. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
-He wouldn't listen. -I find it really weird, cos, obviously, | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
we do the same thing. We both work for the same company, | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
we do exactly the same job. And if I didn't like kids, | 0:20:13 | 0:20:15 | |
I would find it really hard to do my job. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
I've met people who are getting vasectomies, | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
who want to get sterilised, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:22 | |
who are in different parts of the process, and I've met people | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
who've got mental health problems who say that it runs in the family, | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
they don't want to pass that on. What do you guys think about that? | 0:20:28 | 0:20:31 | |
I think that's completely justified. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
Obviously, if you bring a child into life, | 0:20:33 | 0:20:35 | |
then you have to witness part of yourself | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
suffer through that as well. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:39 | |
I can imagine that to be very emotionally hard. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:41 | |
And having been, sort of, "the cause of it," for want of a better word. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
Yeah, cos I guess you could put yourself to blame. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
Do you think there's a gene or an innate thing in you | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
that makes you not want to be a parent? | 0:20:50 | 0:20:52 | |
-No. -If you're genetically deficient, yeah! | 0:20:52 | 0:20:54 | |
THEY LAUGH | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
I just think Paul is taking that one extra step and saying, | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
"Well, I don't want kids. I'm a human being. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
"I'm civilised enough to go..." It's just another step | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
in the civilisation process. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
Eventually, I'd say, 100 years down the line, | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
one in five people will be doing it. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:10 | |
He's more civilised than the rest of us. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
Don't tell him that! You can tell he's new to the group, can't you? | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
-Yeah! -THEY LAUGH | 0:21:16 | 0:21:17 | |
Andie had been posting live updates | 0:21:24 | 0:21:26 | |
throughout the sterilisation procedure online, | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
which had attracted a lot of attention. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
I headed to the hospital to meet Andie, | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
where they were waiting with partner, Jo. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:37 | |
Hi. How are you feeling? | 0:21:37 | 0:21:40 | |
-In pain. -Yeah? | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
I read on your Facebook status that they had to put fluid, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
and you're bleeding heavily and... | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
Yeah, my womb lining collapsed. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
You didn't tell me on the phone! Oh, my God. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
-So what does that mean? Is that...? -Oh, no, it's fine. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
'Andie seemed upset about something, | 0:21:58 | 0:22:00 | |
'and I soon found out it was because of a post | 0:22:00 | 0:22:02 | |
'a cousin had written online about the sterilisation.' | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
Why were you upset? | 0:22:05 | 0:22:06 | |
What did your cousin say to you on this Facebook thread? | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
"You're really going to regret it in the future," or something. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
Something like that. And it put a dampener on how I was feeling. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:16 | |
Like, I was quite chirpy and stuff before, | 0:22:16 | 0:22:18 | |
and it did make me kind of feel really sad and upset. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
It's easier to, like, put people in their place when it's, like, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:26 | |
friends and stuff, or people you don't know, | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
but it's a lot harder to have these conversations with family. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
I think the thing that upset me the most | 0:22:30 | 0:22:32 | |
is that she then commented saying, | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
"I'm her cousin, so I can say whatever I want". | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
And it's kind of like, "Well, not really." | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
My friend, she's in her 30s, I think, | 0:22:40 | 0:22:41 | |
and she's been wanting to do this for ages and been struggling. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
So I think she messaged you, being like, | 0:22:44 | 0:22:46 | |
"You've inspired me to try even harder now," | 0:22:46 | 0:22:48 | |
because they won't let her do it. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:49 | |
I've got friends on there who are, like, nearing 40, and they... | 0:22:49 | 0:22:53 | |
Like, their GP and stuff is still saying no. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
What's the reason for saying no? | 0:22:55 | 0:22:56 | |
I think it's more of a wider problem | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
in that the idea that particularly women, | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
or people who have uteruses, | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
having the control over their own body. Because even now, | 0:23:08 | 0:23:11 | |
we're still discussing abortion and the right to have an abortion, | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
and I think sterilisation kind of falls under that as well. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
But there are so many people who should not be parents, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
cos they're really unfit parents. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:23 | |
And they're having children, and it's fine. | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
And the state backs them up. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
But if you know that you don't want children, | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
-and, you know, you're certain, it's so difficult. -Yeah. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
Andie's sterilisation seemed to be | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
the culmination of a personal struggle | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
about taking control of one's own fertility. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
Now it was time for Paul. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:45 | |
It was the morning of his vasectomy, | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
something he had wanted for 11 years. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:50 | |
-Hi, Paul. -Hello. -How are you feeling? | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
A little bit nervous, to be honest. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
Yeah? Because of the actual procedure, or is it because | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
you're never going to have...? | 0:23:59 | 0:24:01 | |
It's honestly that there is going to be a knife stuck into my bollocks. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
POPPY LAUGHS | 0:24:04 | 0:24:06 | |
Right. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:07 | |
So, Paul, I'm going to go now. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
I don't know why I feel nervous for you. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
-I shouldn't say that. I'll see you later. -See you. -Bye. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
This is it. Do you feel a huge sense of relief now? | 0:25:44 | 0:25:48 | |
I do feel a sense of relief, yep, | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
because it means that there's no risk of children in the future. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:55 | |
And that makes you feel very happy? | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
Yeah. It means I can get on with my sexual misadventures | 0:25:58 | 0:26:01 | |
and not have to pay any prices for it. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:04 | |
And how would you summarise this entire experience? | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
Everyone has their own individual reason | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
for not wanting to have children. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
And a lot of these people, like myself, have gone, | 0:26:12 | 0:26:15 | |
"OK, well I've got this medical condition, | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
"I don't want to risk that." | 0:26:18 | 0:26:19 | |
Some people just flat out hate children. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:22 | |
But is it like a growing movement here? | 0:26:22 | 0:26:24 | |
More and more people coming out here? | 0:26:24 | 0:26:28 | |
-In the UK? -I think there are. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
But at the same time, it's because we're so far-flung, | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
and everyone has their own individual reasons. | 0:26:33 | 0:26:35 | |
You can't really have a rallying banner and say, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:38 | |
"We're all child-free, rah, rah, rah". | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
Because we don't... We're not really oppressed or anything. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:46 | |
We're just unfortunately not taken as seriously as we'd like. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:50 | |
Sceptics might say the people I met | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
were too young to make a decision so final | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
with their lives still ahead of them. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:00 | |
But it struck me their conviction was much more | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
than just a choice of sexual convenience. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
They've carefully considered | 0:27:08 | 0:27:10 | |
how serious their own mental and physical issues are, | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
and they don't want to pass these on to any children, | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
and, as such, have opted to remove themselves as potential parents. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
A course of action which could, perhaps, | 0:27:21 | 0:27:23 | |
cost society and the taxpayer far less in the long run. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:28 | |
And for those who choose sterilisation, | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
it's not just contraception, but a means to fundamentally | 0:27:30 | 0:27:34 | |
take control of their own bodies and their lives. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:38 |