Browse content similar to Ian Hislop: When Bankers Were Good. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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For over 200 years, London's financial districts | 0:00:05 | 0:00:08 | |
have made Britain one of the wealthiest nations on Earth. | 0:00:08 | 0:00:11 | |
Britain's bankers have juggled the country's fortunes, and, of course, | 0:00:13 | 0:00:18 | |
in the process, made substantial sums for themselves. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
Bankers! | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
Nowadays it's almost a term of abuse. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
Widely perceived as overpaid, greedy, | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
self-serving, amoral, or actually dangerous, | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
their reputation has fallen below that of estate agents, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
or even journalists. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
What would the current boss of Barclays give | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
for the sort of coverage his predecessor was getting in 1809 | 0:00:41 | 0:00:46 | |
when The Morning Chronicle wrote, | 0:00:46 | 0:00:48 | |
"We cannot form to ourselves, even in imagination, | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
"the idea of a character more perfect than David Barclay, | 0:00:51 | 0:00:56 | |
"distinguished by his talent, his integrity, his philanthropy, | 0:00:56 | 0:00:59 | |
"his munificence. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:01 | |
"No man was ever more active than David Barclay, | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
"in promoting whatever might ameliorate the condition of man!" | 0:01:05 | 0:01:09 | |
David Barclay was one of a new breed of financiers | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
at the start of a century in which banking helped Britain | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
build the richest empire in the world. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
But whilst the fat cats of Victorian finance achieved wealth on a scale | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
never envisaged by their predecessors, | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
they were far from being, as Peter Mandelson said he was, | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
"Intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich." | 0:01:34 | 0:01:37 | |
Rather their embarrassment of riches led to intense personal soul-searching | 0:01:38 | 0:01:43 | |
and furious national debate about the moral purpose of money | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
and its ability to corrupt. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
For some extraordinary individuals, | 0:01:50 | 0:01:52 | |
this led to an outburst of generosity, | 0:01:52 | 0:01:55 | |
an explosion of philanthropy. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:58 | |
Difficult as it is to imagine it now, this was the age when bankers were good. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:03 | |
At the start of the 19th century, | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
the Industrial Revolution was transforming Britain's economy. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
Manufacturing and commerce needed credit and investment, | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
so banks were springing up across the country. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
From barely a dozen outside London previously, | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
by 1800 there were 370. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
There was the Barclay family, | 0:02:43 | 0:02:44 | |
successful brewers, who became bankers. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
The Lloyds family, who moved from manufacturing iron to banking. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
And here in wealthy Norwich, | 0:02:51 | 0:02:53 | |
the financial sector was dominated by the Gurneys. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
Samuel Gurney was a banker with three brothers, | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
all bankers, too. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:04 | |
And two of his sisters also chose imaginatively to marry bankers. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:09 | |
The family was phenomenally successful - | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
"as rich as the Gurneys" | 0:03:13 | 0:03:15 | |
was contemporary shorthand for seriously loaded. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
But all that money didn't help the Gurneys sleep at night. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:28 | |
Christians are told that it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
And the Gurneys were not just Christians - they were Quakers. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
As Quakers, the Gurneys met to worship in restrained quietness, | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
without liturgy, priests or singing. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
Their puritan faith valued modesty and simplicity, | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
and they were taught to "beware the deceitfulness of riches." | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
Yet paradoxically, at the turn of the 19th century, | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
perhaps a quarter of English banks had Quaker origins - | 0:04:07 | 0:04:10 | |
not just the Gurneys, but Barclays and Lloyds, too. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
Quakers were outsiders, and like other non-Anglicans, were barred from the professions, | 0:04:14 | 0:04:19 | |
driving the ambitious into business. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
They were honest folk, um, rather self-righteous, | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
rather priggish many of them. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
They got up early, they went to bed early, | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
they didn't drink too much, | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
and do all the things which most normal people do, | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
led very virtuous lives and worked very hard. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
If you do all that in the world where capitalism is coming into growth, | 0:04:38 | 0:04:43 | |
you're bound to end up as quite well heeled, or indeed | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
very rich indeed as most of the Quakers that we know about did. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:50 | |
The Gurneys were deeply conscious of the irony | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
that the qualities of diligence, prudence and sobriety | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
that their faith encouraged, | 0:04:57 | 0:04:59 | |
also made them very good at getting very rich, | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
which their faith discouraged. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
One brother worried in his diary. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
"It is a very serious thing to be so largely engaged | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
"in the cares and transactions of money matters. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
"It calls for a real watchfulness against avarice." | 0:05:17 | 0:05:22 | |
But for Samuel Gurney, banking could also be a genuine force for good. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:29 | |
When Lloyd Blankfein of Goldman Sachs told the Sunday Times, | 0:05:29 | 0:05:33 | |
not so long ago, that he and his fellow investment bankers | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
were "doing God's work", everyone fell about laughing. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:41 | |
He must be taking the mickey, no-one could mean that seriously. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
But that's exactly what Samuel Gurney believed. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
He felt that banking was his religious duty. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
He wrote to his brother, "The income it affords, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:54 | |
"with its consequent influence and power, | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
"is by no means to be despised. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
"Is it not a talent to be turned to good account?" | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
So, to continue the biblical parable, | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
if you have a talent for banking, you don't bury it in the ground, | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
you make the money and you spend the money well. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
To reconcile the conflict between God and mammon, | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
money and morals, the Gurneys gave away substantial sums. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:22 | |
Their do-gooding stretched from poverty relief | 0:06:22 | 0:06:25 | |
to the anti-slavery campaign, but they became | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
most closely associated with the issue taken up by their sister. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:33 | |
OK, ladies and gentlemen, free money. I'm giving away money. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:39 | |
Just chucking it away. One simple question - | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
who's the lady on the back of the five-pound note? | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
Erm, it's not Edith Cavell? | 0:06:44 | 0:06:46 | |
Near. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:47 | |
-The Queen? -No, that's the lady on the front. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
-Heroines. -Boudicca? | 0:06:50 | 0:06:51 | |
-No. -Is it Florence Nightingale? | 0:06:51 | 0:06:54 | |
No. No, it's not Princess Diana! | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
You're in Norwich, she was from here... | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
THEY GIGGLE | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
-It's not Julian of Norwich? -No. -I don't know, I'm afraid. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
-Sounds like a chocolate? -Sounds like a chocolate? | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
-I don't know. -Cadbury. | 0:07:09 | 0:07:11 | |
No, the other lot, Quakers. Give me her name. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:14 | |
-Turkish delight. -Fry! Elizabeth Fry! | 0:07:14 | 0:07:17 | |
-Elizabeth Fry! You're brilliant! -Thank you! Thank you very much. | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
Fantastic, five pounds, thank you very much. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
Elizabeth Fry, nee Gurney, was Samuel's big sister, | 0:07:26 | 0:07:30 | |
who'd married another Quaker banker, Joseph Fry. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
Elizabeth, like her brothers, had a keen sense of the value of money. | 0:07:34 | 0:07:39 | |
When her husband bought her a caricature as a gift, | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
she scolded him for being a spendthrift. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:44 | |
Poor Joseph - who always was rather financially inept - | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
responded by throwing the present into the fire! | 0:07:49 | 0:07:53 | |
Unhappy with the frivolity of her well-to-do banking life, | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
Elizabeth determined to use her wealth to set the world to rights. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:06 | |
She found her cause at Newgate, London's most notorious prison, | 0:08:07 | 0:08:12 | |
recreated here with scrupulous realism by the BBC. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
You know what they call you, don't you? Savages! | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
They lock you in a cage, they make you sleep on straw, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
they allow you to drink and gamble. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
Well, this is not the Lord's way, and we must change it. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
Introducing education and paid work for the prisoners, | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
Fry determined to give them the habits of order, sobriety and industry | 0:08:36 | 0:08:41 | |
which the Quakers believed were the key to life, | 0:08:41 | 0:08:43 | |
whether you were a banker or a convict. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
Much to management's surprise, | 0:08:48 | 0:08:50 | |
the reforms at Newgate proved a success. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:53 | |
Fry went on to become the most famous prison reformer of her age. | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
Her staunchest supporters were her banking brothers, | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
who not only backed her financially, | 0:09:03 | 0:09:05 | |
but joined her on research trips to prisons around Britain. | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
But the Gurneys could never leave their day jobs for long. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:15 | |
These were heady times to be in banking. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
The Gurneys' Quaker faith not only taught them | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
to be wary of worldly avarice, | 0:09:23 | 0:09:25 | |
of storing up their treasures on Earth, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
but also of the uncertainty of riches themselves. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
Finding the dividing line between speculative financial investment - | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
which could be good for business - | 0:09:35 | 0:09:37 | |
and gambling, the Devil's work, was not always straightforward. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:42 | |
In 1825, a boom in speculation was followed by a stock market crash | 0:09:44 | 0:09:50 | |
that caused one of the most severe financial crises Britain has ever known. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
Weeks of panic saw tumbling prices, a run on the banks, | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
and even the Bank of England on the verge of collapse. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
Samuel Gurney shone in the crisis. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
With sound judgement and prudent lending, he rescued many, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:12 | |
earning himself the nickname, the bankers' banker. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
But being prudent didn't mean being sentimental. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
In the credit crunch that followed, some 80 banks went bust, | 0:10:21 | 0:10:25 | |
and Gurney did not save the bank run by his brother-in-law, Joseph Fry. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:30 | |
Elizabeth's husband was declared bankrupt, | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
a humiliating experience for a Quaker. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
The Quakers judged failure to pay back debt | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
an unforgivable betrayal of trust. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:45 | |
The bankrupt Joseph was thrown out of the Society of Friends | 0:10:45 | 0:10:49 | |
and Elizabeth's reputation suffered too. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
This may seem harsh, but perhaps there's something to be said | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
for a morality that valued personal integrity | 0:10:56 | 0:10:59 | |
and prudence with other people's money, | 0:10:59 | 0:11:01 | |
and considered financial recklessness, well, | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
at the least, something to be embarrassed about. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
These days, when bankers mess up the economy, | 0:11:07 | 0:11:10 | |
they seem to get off scot-free. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:12 | |
Perhaps a bit of stern Quaker shame wouldn't go amiss. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:16 | |
Despite her own financial ruin Elizabeth continued, | 0:11:19 | 0:11:22 | |
aided by her philanthropic brothers, | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
to speak up for prisoners and the poor for the rest of her life. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
Today, Newgate prison is long gone. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
On its site is the Old Bailey, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
the Central Criminal Court of England and Wales. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
And Elizabeth Fry is still, however, keeping an unflinching moral eye | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
on all proceedings at the heart of British justice. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:04 | |
Elizabeth Fry and her brothers, | 0:12:06 | 0:12:08 | |
both in their philanthropy and their banking business, demonstrated to others | 0:12:08 | 0:12:13 | |
that it was possible to keep your principles and your profitability, | 0:12:13 | 0:12:18 | |
to create wealth and to use it to create a better society. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
And that there was a duty by those who had made good, | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
to do good. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:28 | |
Not all bankers were good, of course. | 0:12:32 | 0:12:35 | |
Indeed, many of them had reputations | 0:12:35 | 0:12:37 | |
somewhat less glowing than the Gurneys. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
Ebenezer Scrooge is only the most famous | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
of a host of morally-dubious financiers in 19th century fiction. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:50 | |
Dickens, Trollope, Thackeray and Eliot all wrote of greedy bankers, | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
clinging to their ill-gotten gains, and lacking basic human charity. | 0:12:54 | 0:12:59 | |
Charles Dickens' Little Dorrit is a credit crunch story, | 0:13:02 | 0:13:06 | |
which depicts the terrible trail of misery caused by bad debt. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
The crooked financier Merdle ends up killing himself | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
when his speculations fail. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:15 | |
Dickens' banker, Merdle, is thought to be modelled | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
on real-life banker and MP John Sadleir, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:24 | |
founder of the Tipperary Joint Stock Bank. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
At first he was eminently successful as a businessman, | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
but he over-stretched himself with reckless speculation on the stock exchange. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:36 | |
He then tried to solve his problems | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
by raising money with forged deeds and embezzled assets. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:42 | |
When his swindles were about to be exposed, | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
and his bank was about to go bust, | 0:13:44 | 0:13:46 | |
Sadleir went to Hampstead Heath and committed suicide | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
by drinking prussic acid out of a silver cream jug. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:54 | |
"I cannot live", he wrote in a suicide note, | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
"I have ruined too many. | 0:13:57 | 0:13:58 | |
"I could not live and see their agony." | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
You see, it's that Victorian shame again. | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
No-one's suggesting that those responsible for the current financial crisis | 0:14:04 | 0:14:09 | |
should do the equivalent and all go and throw themselves off tall buildings in Canary wharf. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:15 | |
Well, not all of them obviously. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:17 | |
But as a sign of repentance it is fairly impressive. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:21 | |
Certainly a lot more convincing than giving yourself a bonus | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
and saying, "It's time to move on." | 0:14:25 | 0:14:27 | |
Today we rely less on disgrace and prussic acid | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
to keep the banking community in check, | 0:14:39 | 0:14:41 | |
and more on the Financial Services Authority, | 0:14:41 | 0:14:44 | |
located in a tall building in Canary Wharf. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
Does it worry you that banking at the moment | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
has a very poor reputation? | 0:14:51 | 0:14:54 | |
Well, I think it's completely understandable, | 0:14:54 | 0:14:56 | |
that the banking profession is not held in high esteem at the moment, | 0:14:56 | 0:15:01 | |
after what happened in the financial crisis, | 0:15:01 | 0:15:03 | |
and I think the banking industry, the intelligent people in it, | 0:15:03 | 0:15:07 | |
realise that they are going to have to re-earn public trust. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
What we've got to have is a financial system | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
which performs its necessary and important functions, | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
and where people in it | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
can feel proud of doing useful activities. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
To earnest Quakers like the Gurneys, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
there were problems with the very idea of banking, | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
can it be a good activity? | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
Well, I think it can, it undoubtedly can. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:34 | |
I mean, first, I think it's important to realise | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
it is very difficult to imagine | 0:15:37 | 0:15:39 | |
the transformation in the standard of living of everybody in society, | 0:15:39 | 0:15:43 | |
which has occurred over the last 200 years since the Industrial Revolution, | 0:15:43 | 0:15:47 | |
without there being a banking and financial system. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
It's a fundamental part of how you take savings, | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
surplus money from people who have savings, and work out | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
how to put it productively in a way that produces investment and growth. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
So as long as they were doing the right sort of banking | 0:15:59 | 0:16:03 | |
they should have been OK with their conscience. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
Do you think it dulls the moral sensibility? | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
If you simply deal with something which is completely immaterial, | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
right, money, things up and down on a screen, | 0:16:12 | 0:16:17 | |
you can be in danger of not thinking about the value what you're doing. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:23 | |
I think people need to realise | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
that the process of dealing with things which are only, you know, | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
digits on the paper or digits on the screen, | 0:16:28 | 0:16:32 | |
you know, unless you're careful, | 0:16:32 | 0:16:34 | |
can end up with a belief that money is the measure of all things | 0:16:34 | 0:16:39 | |
rather than something, which it is perfectly legitimate to want to have | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
as part of a wider life, which is hopefully socially useful as well. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:50 | |
Plenty of people wanted to make money back in the Victorian City, | 0:16:59 | 0:17:03 | |
which was increasingly seen as a place of opportunity, | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
where even the humblest person had a chance to succeed. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
Meet George Peabody, the quintessential self-made man. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:20 | |
Born in relative poverty in America, | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
with very little formal education, | 0:17:23 | 0:17:25 | |
his drive for success propelled him | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
from lowly apprentice in a grocery store, | 0:17:28 | 0:17:30 | |
to king of the dry goods business. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
When he moved to London in 1837 | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
he was already a man of serious substance. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
He seemed to embody that Victorian ideal of self help, | 0:17:38 | 0:17:43 | |
that anybody could make good, | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
provided they were sufficiently hardworking, thrifty, and determined. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:50 | |
It's rather a double-edged sword though because it implies that | 0:17:50 | 0:17:54 | |
if you ARE still stuck in poverty, it's your own fault, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:57 | |
so bah humbug to you. | 0:17:57 | 0:17:59 | |
Meanwhile Peabody worked so hard and saved so much money | 0:17:59 | 0:18:03 | |
that some less generous people thought he was nothing more than a miser, | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
a sort of real-life Scrooge. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
Despite his sizeable fortune George took a packed lunch to work every day, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
and if he sent the office boy out to buy him a bag of apples, | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
which cost one pence ha'penny, | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
he expected the change back from tuppence. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
He was living proof that if you look after the pennies | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
the millions of pounds take care of themselves. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
In 1838 Peabody opened up a counting house. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:41 | |
No longer just trading in dry goods but financing that trade too, | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
he became what was known as a merchant banker. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
With no family, and no interests other than making money, | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
parsimonious Peabody spent only 1% of his income. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
Everyone assumed he would take his millions to the grave, | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
but in 1862 he proved them all wrong. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:07 | |
These magnificent documents | 0:19:09 | 0:19:11 | |
are the Deeds of Trust by which Peabody gave away his money. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
This one is for £100,000, | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
this is £150,000, | 0:19:18 | 0:19:22 | |
that's £200,000. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
They total half a million pounds, | 0:19:25 | 0:19:27 | |
which is a staggering amount of money, then, | 0:19:27 | 0:19:29 | |
and now would be worth something like 50 times that. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:33 | |
Why did he do it? | 0:19:33 | 0:19:35 | |
We don't really know. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:37 | |
There's no evidence that he was particularly religious. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
It could be that he couldn't forget the poverty of his past. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
Or he could be trying to improve British American relations, | 0:19:43 | 0:19:47 | |
the two countries were on the edge of war at the time. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
Perhaps he just wanted the glory of being a great philanthropist. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:54 | |
I like to think he was visited by ghosts in the middle of the night like Scrooge, | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
and decided he had to stop hoarding his money and start giving it away. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
Peabody declared his aim was to, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
"Ameliorate the condition of the poor and needy of London". | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
The population explosion in the capital | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
had created shockingly bad living conditions | 0:20:14 | 0:20:16 | |
for the impoverished masses. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
There was no sense in those days that the government was obliged | 0:20:19 | 0:20:23 | |
to make sure that the poor were properly housed. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:25 | |
The only thing you were obliged to do was pick them out of the river if they'd actually died, | 0:20:25 | 0:20:30 | |
pick them out of the gutter if there had been a cholera epidemic. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
And if they didn't work, thrash them and put them in the poor house, | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
but the idea that you might give them somewhere decent to live | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
didn't cross the minds of government. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
When the first Peabody Dwellings opened in 1864 | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
they must have seemed like Paradise on earth. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
They were designed around open courtyards, | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
with their backs to the roads | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
in a deliberate attempt to make tenants feel separate | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
from the slums outside. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
They had unheard of luxuries | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
like laundry rooms, | 0:21:08 | 0:21:10 | |
free baths | 0:21:10 | 0:21:11 | |
and rubbish collection... | 0:21:11 | 0:21:12 | |
and best of all, space for children to play. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:15 | |
No wonder Peabody properties became so much in demand, | 0:21:17 | 0:21:22 | |
but only the right sort could apply. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
Even in his charity, Peabody pursued the ideals of self-help. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:31 | |
Differentiating between the so-called "idle poor", and the "industrious poor", | 0:21:31 | 0:21:36 | |
he wanted to help those who would help themselves, | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
people who were hard working and thrifty, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
who were already trying to get out of poverty, as he himself had done. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:46 | |
His homes were for those of "good moral character" | 0:21:46 | 0:21:50 | |
who displayed this through "good conduct as a member of society". | 0:21:50 | 0:21:55 | |
Oh, Hello. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:00 | |
-Hello, Joan. I'm Ian. -Pleased to meet you. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:02 | |
'Joan Gregory is a Peabody resident of excellent moral character.' | 0:22:02 | 0:22:07 | |
Joan how long have you lived on the Peabody estate? | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
-Well, I would say 84 years because that's my age... -Never! -Yes. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:18 | |
My grandfather come to the estate around 1899 or 1900. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
My mother was 1900 | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
and she started off the children born on the estate. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
Cor...they haven't moved much. R block, R block, R block... | 0:22:31 | 0:22:37 | |
F Block! See that's round the other street! | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
I get the feeling everyone was respectable. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:45 | |
Well, I think so because | 0:22:45 | 0:22:47 | |
the father had to have a job. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
Otherwise he couldn't pay the rent, | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
and if you couldn't pay the rent you couldn't live on the estate. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
Do you think it was a good thing, what Peabody did? | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
Setting up this special sort of housing? | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
I think so. He done good with his money. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
Exactly! Do you think they do good with their money now? | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
I don't know what would happen now if he was in the same position | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
and still alive now. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:13 | |
He would probably be with all the other bankers making profits | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
and getting big bonuses. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
Impressive as it was, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
Peabody's charity was criticised from all sides. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:31 | |
Some said he should target the really destitute who couldn't afford 2/6d a week. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:36 | |
Meanwhile, the private landlords were furious | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
because the Peabody estates offered such extraordinary value, | 0:23:40 | 0:23:44 | |
undercutting their overpriced and hideous slums. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:48 | |
But Peabody was a shrewd businessman | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
and by targeting the labouring poor | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
who could afford to pay some rent, | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
the trust ensured that it made enough money to perpetuate itself indefinitely. | 0:23:56 | 0:24:02 | |
It was, quite literally, the gift that kept on giving. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
Peabody estates sprung up rapidly across London, | 0:24:10 | 0:24:14 | |
housing 2,000 people by 1869. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
30 years later it was ten times that. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
Now more than a century on, there are 50,000 people | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
living in over 20,000 Peabody properties in the capital. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:29 | |
Tell me what his legacy is now. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
I mean this was 150 years ago. How much is left? | 0:24:33 | 0:24:38 | |
Well, we've got a surprising amount of the Victorian property left | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
and it's really stood the test of time. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:44 | |
But it's much more than that. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:47 | |
So many people's lives have been touched by Peabody homes, | 0:24:47 | 0:24:51 | |
and really made good and have used them as a stepping stone, | 0:24:51 | 0:24:55 | |
a springboard, into a better way of life. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
I note you use the word "made good", | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
Peabody would've liked that cos he wanted people of good moral character to live in his houses. | 0:25:01 | 0:25:06 | |
Yes, that's, that's absolutely right, and it's something | 0:25:06 | 0:25:10 | |
we've tried to keep going in the way that we operate now. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
Is there philanthropy on a Peabody scale, in Britain any more? | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
I think that isn't the case | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
and the Government has actually suggested that, | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
there's a time for a cultural change in the banking sector | 0:25:25 | 0:25:28 | |
to, er, encourage them, bankers, to make donations to charitable organisations, | 0:25:28 | 0:25:36 | |
-but, frankly, we haven't seen it yet. -As yet... -As yet! | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
You're still waiting! | 0:25:39 | 0:25:41 | |
Peabody had flourished at a time | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
when banking was helping to transform Britain. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
The nation's savings funded railways, shipbuilding, | 0:25:54 | 0:25:58 | |
and the new telegraph cables which kept the City in touch with faraway markets. | 0:25:58 | 0:26:02 | |
Through the 19th century the Bank of England gradually assumed | 0:26:05 | 0:26:09 | |
the responsibilities of a central bank. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
Several times a year throngs of people would arrive there | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
for an occasion celebrated in one of the grandest rooms at the heart of the building. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:23 | |
This is George Elgar Hicks' painting Dividend Day at the Bank of England. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:30 | |
The Victorians loved these genre pictures of great national events | 0:26:30 | 0:26:34 | |
where they, the public, were centre stage. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:37 | |
And it shows how widespread banking and investment had become | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
that this picture was such a huge hit | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
when it was shown at the Royal Academy. | 0:26:44 | 0:26:46 | |
What we have here is the public, the investors | 0:26:46 | 0:26:51 | |
going to get their twice yearly interest on their investment. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:55 | |
You see the sign says Consols which is consolidated debt. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
The people of England were financing the country | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
and being rewarded with a small, 3% sometimes a bit more, | 0:27:02 | 0:27:07 | |
but solid return on their money. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:09 | |
The amazing thing about the picture is the cross section of people there who are now investing. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:15 | |
Yes, there's a rich young lady giving the eye to a banker in a top hat, | 0:27:15 | 0:27:20 | |
but it's not just the rich. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
In the corner there's someone quite clearly up from the country | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
with his basket, scratching his head | 0:27:25 | 0:27:27 | |
not quite sure if he's got the right return for his coupon, | 0:27:27 | 0:27:31 | |
old people invalids, children, town, country, a widow, they're all there. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:36 | |
It's an amazing cross section of middle Britain, | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
to demonstrate that we had become a nation of shareholders. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
By 1850 nearly 40% of all assets held by British citizens were financial. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:56 | |
But not all investments were as reliable as Bank of England stock. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
Speculating in the increasingly complicated and volatile money markets | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
was a dangerous business. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
It was a jungle because it was absolutely unregulated | 0:28:08 | 0:28:13 | |
and you only have to read the novels of the period | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
to realise that whole human lives, and in indeed whole human communities, | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
can be wrecked overnight by a rash investment in the City | 0:28:20 | 0:28:24 | |
or by somebody speculating in a way they shouldn't do. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
Or by somebody gambling. It was basically a gambling casino. | 0:28:27 | 0:28:32 | |
The intoxicating lure of easy riches could lead to recklessness | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
from even the most level-headed. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
In 1866, just a decade after the risk-averse Samuel Gurney died, | 0:28:39 | 0:28:44 | |
the firm which he'd built up so successfully. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
Overend & Gurney collapsed thanks to a Victorian version of subprime debt. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:53 | |
It caused the last run on a British bank | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
before 2007. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
As Walter Bagehot, then editor of the Economist, put it, | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
"The partners at Overend & Gurney seem to have run their business | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
"in a manner so reckless and foolish | 0:29:06 | 0:29:09 | |
"that a child who had lent money in the City of London | 0:29:09 | 0:29:12 | |
"would have lent it better." | 0:29:12 | 0:29:14 | |
Poor, trustworthy Samuel Gurney must have been turning in his grave! | 0:29:14 | 0:29:20 | |
One bank that did stay rock solid and reliable was Coutts. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:31 | |
Thomas Coutts had built his bank up | 0:29:43 | 0:29:45 | |
to be perhaps the most successful private bank in the country, | 0:29:45 | 0:29:48 | |
able to count the royal family | 0:29:48 | 0:29:50 | |
and much of the landed aristocracy among his customers. | 0:29:50 | 0:29:54 | |
Today, all visitors to the boardroom pass through a room where | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
the most important members of the family still hang on the walls. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
This is the venerable Thomas Coutts | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
who had daughters but no male heir, and scandalised his family, | 0:30:17 | 0:30:22 | |
not to mention the rest of society, | 0:30:22 | 0:30:24 | |
when he decided at the age of 80 to marry the young, beautiful, | 0:30:24 | 0:30:29 | |
dark-haired actress Harriet Mellon, | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
who was less than half his age. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
On his death he bequeathed to her his entire fortune | 0:30:35 | 0:30:38 | |
and his half share of the bank. | 0:30:38 | 0:30:41 | |
You can imagine how popular she was with the Coutts daughters! | 0:30:41 | 0:30:45 | |
Anyway on her death the entire family gathered to hear | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
the will read out. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
You can imagine the scene. It was like something from a Victorian melodrama. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:54 | |
There were the daughters, there were ten surviving grandchildren, | 0:30:54 | 0:30:57 | |
and none of them knew how the family fortune would be distributed. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:01 | |
The lawyers read out the will and dropped the bombshell. | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
Harriet had left the lot, everything, | 0:31:04 | 0:31:08 | |
the vast pile to the youngest grandchild | 0:31:08 | 0:31:11 | |
Angela Burdett, age 23. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
All young Angela had to do was take the name Coutts, | 0:31:17 | 0:31:21 | |
and promise not to marry a foreigner. | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
Her romantic story made her an overnight celebrity. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
The newspapers came up with wild statistics to describe | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
the size of her fortune. | 0:31:31 | 0:31:33 | |
It would take 107 men to carry it in gold, | 0:31:33 | 0:31:37 | |
over ten weeks to count it in sovereigns, | 0:31:37 | 0:31:39 | |
and if it was laid out in crown pieces, | 0:31:39 | 0:31:43 | |
the line would be over 113 miles long. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
She became the new darling of high society, | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
with her lavish parties, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:55 | |
fine clothes, impressive jewellery, love of small dogs - | 0:31:55 | 0:32:00 | |
she even had a stalker who was imprisoned - | 0:32:00 | 0:32:02 | |
she could have been a sort of Paris Hilton of her day. | 0:32:02 | 0:32:06 | |
But Miss Burdett Coutts was neither particularly attractive nor terribly | 0:32:06 | 0:32:10 | |
vivacious, though she did have, obviously, other attractions... | 0:32:10 | 0:32:15 | |
millions of them! | 0:32:15 | 0:32:17 | |
Eligible suitors queued up to propose marriage | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
and press rumours linked her with everyone from the future Napoleon III | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
to the Bishop of Oxford. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
But Miss Burdett Coutts was fiercely independent, | 0:32:26 | 0:32:29 | |
wary of gold diggers, and had other plans for her future. | 0:32:29 | 0:32:34 | |
Angela's vast wealth gave her far more power than other women of her time. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:40 | |
She was free to turn philanthropy into a career. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
She turned for advice to that great observer of Victorian society, | 0:32:44 | 0:32:49 | |
Charles Dickens. | 0:32:49 | 0:32:51 | |
Dickens divided the charitable into two types. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:55 | |
One, people who did a little and made a great deal of noise. | 0:32:55 | 0:32:59 | |
The other, people who did a great deal and made no noise at all. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:04 | |
His novels frequently ridicule blind, misplaced, | 0:33:04 | 0:33:07 | |
or patronising do-gooding, | 0:33:07 | 0:33:09 | |
creating characters like Mrs Jellyby in Bleak House, | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
who is so concerned about the plight of natives in faraway Borrioboola-Gha | 0:33:12 | 0:33:18 | |
that she totally neglects her own children. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
But Dickens considered Miss Burdett Coutts to be | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
"the noblest spirit one could ever know". | 0:33:25 | 0:33:28 | |
He didn't put her in a novel, he dedicated one to her. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:32 | |
Using the wealth made from banking, | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
Burdett Coutts gave away four times as much as Peabody. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:44 | |
Indeed she contributed more millions, to more causes, | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
than anyone before her, until she became a kind of British institution. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:52 | |
Burdett-Coutts poured money in every direction where she saw need | 0:33:59 | 0:34:04 | |
new schools, night schools, technical schools, sewing schools, | 0:34:04 | 0:34:08 | |
training for teachers in the schools, | 0:34:08 | 0:34:10 | |
new hospitals, training for nurses in the hospitals, | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
libraries, scientific foundations, training for policemen, | 0:34:13 | 0:34:17 | |
temperance societies to stop people drinking, | 0:34:17 | 0:34:19 | |
drinking fountains to get them drinking water, | 0:34:19 | 0:34:22 | |
soup kitchens for the poor, | 0:34:22 | 0:34:24 | |
famine relief for Ireland, help for Muslim refugees, churches, | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
bible classes, | 0:34:27 | 0:34:29 | |
bishoprics in the colonies, | 0:34:29 | 0:34:31 | |
the fishing industry, bee keeping, | 0:34:31 | 0:34:33 | |
better conditions for flower girls, better conditions for boot blacks, | 0:34:33 | 0:34:37 | |
free milk for children, the campaign against cruelty to children, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:41 | |
the campaign against cruelty to animals, | 0:34:41 | 0:34:43 | |
scholarship, art, cancer relief. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
No cause was too small... | 0:34:46 | 0:34:48 | |
Angela Burdett Coutts was the first patron of the British goat society | 0:34:48 | 0:34:53 | |
and she donated funds to make it possible | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
and she was a very key player in the formative years. | 0:34:56 | 0:35:00 | |
So why did she think goats were such a good idea? | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
Because in Victorian times, they didn't have refrigerators and so on, | 0:35:03 | 0:35:06 | |
so people needed milk. | 0:35:06 | 0:35:08 | |
You couldn't buy milk and keep it, you needed a fresh supply of milk, | 0:35:08 | 0:35:12 | |
so obviously for the average household, there was no way | 0:35:12 | 0:35:15 | |
that they could afford to keep a cow but they could keep a goat | 0:35:15 | 0:35:18 | |
quite easily and the goat would go in the garden | 0:35:18 | 0:35:21 | |
and eat all sorts of wide variety of food | 0:35:21 | 0:35:23 | |
and would produce fresh milk for the children. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:26 | |
So they're perfect for the poor? | 0:35:26 | 0:35:28 | |
Absolutely perfect. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:30 | |
Now, is the goat community in need of help nowadays? | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
Could you use some bankers? | 0:35:33 | 0:35:35 | |
Yes, we could definitely use some bankers. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:37 | |
The British Goat Society still does what it can to develop the goat, | 0:35:37 | 0:35:41 | |
improve the goat, publicise the goat and of course, all that costs money. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:45 | |
The Burdett Coutts of our time! | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
We need them! We need them. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:49 | |
I hope they're listening. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
Yes! | 0:35:51 | 0:35:52 | |
GOAT BLEATS | 0:35:52 | 0:35:53 | |
Hello, goat. | 0:35:56 | 0:35:57 | |
Got any views on the role of charity as against the nanny state? | 0:35:57 | 0:36:01 | |
GOAT BLEATS | 0:36:01 | 0:36:02 | |
In recognition of all that Burdett Coutts had contributed, | 0:36:05 | 0:36:08 | |
in 1871 Queen Victoria made her a Baroness, | 0:36:08 | 0:36:12 | |
an extraordinary honour then for a woman to be given in her own right. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:17 | |
Punch even dedicated a poem to her. | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
It's called In Angelae Honorem, which is a pun | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
on the words "angel" and "Angela", | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
which they obviously thought was very amusing. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
"The Queen has made her noble, but ere that rank was given, | 0:36:29 | 0:36:32 | |
"She had donned robe and coronet of the peerage made in Heaven. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:36 | |
"Baptised in purer honour than from earthly fountain flows, | 0:36:36 | 0:36:40 | |
"Raised to a prouder Upper House than our proud island knows." | 0:36:40 | 0:36:45 | |
And it gets worse, if you can believe that. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
"If we needs must find her symbol, then carve and set on high | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
"A heavily-laden camel going through the needle's eye." | 0:36:51 | 0:36:55 | |
So Angela is so marvellous that the parable of the rich man | 0:36:57 | 0:37:01 | |
and the eye of the needle no longer applies. | 0:37:01 | 0:37:04 | |
But it does show you the esteem in which she was held | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
by the general public. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:08 | |
And Punch, the satirical magazine, makes no criticism of her at all. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:13 | |
But Angela once wrote | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
that her wealth had brought her little real happiness. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
She knew there was more to life. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
In February 1881, the Baroness, now in her late 60s, | 0:37:26 | 0:37:31 | |
gathered a few close friends and family here, | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
at Christ Church in Mayfair. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
They'd come to witness her marriage | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
to her secretary, who was nearly 40 years her junior. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:42 | |
The Burdett Coutts' wedding was the biggest scandal of the time. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:46 | |
The partners at the bank were aghast, | 0:37:46 | 0:37:49 | |
and the gossip columnists had a field day. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
The former Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, wrote to Queen Victoria, | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
saying Lady Burdett's marriage is the greatest scrape | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
since the war in Afghanistan. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
The Queen herself declared it "the madness of a silly old woman". | 0:38:02 | 0:38:06 | |
And the Archbishop of Canterbury suggested that rather than marrying him, | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
Burdett Coutts should adopt him. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:13 | |
It wasn't just that her chosen husband was young | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
and possibly a fortune hunter. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
It was worse than that. He was an American. | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
By marrying a foreigner, she had broken the terms of her inheritance, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:27 | |
so at a stroke, Angela Burdett Coutts sacrificed the majority of her wealth for love. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:33 | |
The Baroness' charitable giving continued, though now much limited, | 0:38:35 | 0:38:40 | |
but apparently she was finally happy. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
The great thing about money is that you're the lord of your own life, | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
or lady of your own life in this case. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
And I think that with all these philanthropists, | 0:38:49 | 0:38:53 | |
very deep inside them actually | 0:38:53 | 0:38:55 | |
is a desire not to just share their great wealth | 0:38:55 | 0:38:59 | |
but to get rid of it all, cos it's a kind of a burden, | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
and it's a kind of filth. | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
Philanthropy was now becoming fashionable. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:16 | |
Victorians discovered that charity balls, like this one, | 0:39:16 | 0:39:20 | |
were a popular and effective way to encourage the rich to give. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:25 | |
In the mid-1880s, The Times claimed that the income of London charities | 0:39:25 | 0:39:29 | |
was greater than the governments of several European countries. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:33 | |
Yet some social commentators worried | 0:39:37 | 0:39:39 | |
that the rich giving money wasn't enough. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:42 | |
There was something intrinsically wrong with the free market, | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
which wasn't making society fairer, but more unjust and materialistic. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:50 | |
One fierce objector was John Ruskin, the great Victorian critic, | 0:39:52 | 0:39:57 | |
whose essays Unto This Last attacked greed and unbridled capitalism. | 0:39:57 | 0:40:02 | |
Ruskin would have recognised and shared contemporary concerns | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
about bankers' excessive pay and bonuses. | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
His book was an attack on that desire for riches, | 0:40:12 | 0:40:16 | |
which ignores the wealth of the wider community. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:18 | |
In fact, he defined two types of wealth. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
Wealth, which makes the world a better place, | 0:40:21 | 0:40:23 | |
and illth, which is created for no purpose, | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
and makes the world a worse place. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:28 | |
Well-th and Ill-th - you see? | 0:40:28 | 0:40:31 | |
Ruskin argued that the purpose of commerce needed to be about | 0:40:33 | 0:40:38 | |
more than just adding shareholder value. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:40 | |
He wrote, "It is no more the merchant's function to get profit | 0:40:40 | 0:40:45 | |
"for himself than it is a clergyman's function to get his stipend". | 0:40:45 | 0:40:50 | |
For Ruskin, the purpose of business is to provide for the nation. | 0:40:50 | 0:40:55 | |
Ruskin thought a society would be genuinely rich | 0:40:55 | 0:40:58 | |
when its citizens were happy, healthy and good. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:02 | |
As he famously put it - "There is no wealth but life." | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
What was so original about Ruskin, | 0:41:10 | 0:41:12 | |
was that he realised that all this money that the Victorians had, | 0:41:12 | 0:41:18 | |
far from being a blessing, was a curse, | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
and the belching smoke and fumes and poison coming out of Victorian factories, | 0:41:20 | 0:41:27 | |
for Ruskin were the storm clouds of the 19th century | 0:41:27 | 0:41:31 | |
and they weren't just physical clouds wrecking the atmosphere, | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
they were moral clouds of poison. | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
Ruskin's ideas weren't too popular with economists. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
One reviewer felt he'd been preached to death by a mad governess. | 0:41:40 | 0:41:46 | |
But 150 years on, we're again wrestling with the same questions. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:52 | |
Surrounded by temples to Mammon, St Paul's Cathedral, | 0:41:53 | 0:41:57 | |
has become the recent unexpected epicentre of this debate. | 0:41:57 | 0:42:03 | |
A clash of values has stirred the nation, challenged the Church, | 0:42:03 | 0:42:07 | |
and would cost its canon, Dr Giles Fraser, his job, | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
shortly after he spoke to me. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
I think the Church should not condemn making money per se. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:18 | |
It gives people jobs, it creates energy for the economy | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
and there's nothing wrong with that. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
I think the Church has been too snooty about money for centuries. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:27 | |
So I think that that side of things is fine, but, | 0:42:27 | 0:42:31 | |
the one thing the Church has always said is that, | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
the love of money is the root of all evil. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
Not money per se, but the love of money. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:38 | |
Ruskin said at the time that a lot of the creation of money was, | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
he called it illth, rather than wealth, | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
but it's the same thing, he said it was socially useless. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:48 | |
Do you think there are ways of commerce here that are useless? | 0:42:48 | 0:42:51 | |
There are those who say that all forms of activity, | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
even if you're buying a Porsche and wasting it in champagne bars, | 0:42:54 | 0:42:58 | |
is generating jobs for people who make Porsches and who sell champagne, | 0:42:58 | 0:43:02 | |
so to that extent, there is an argument. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
But I would say for the person who's doing all of that, | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
it's actually corrupting. | 0:43:08 | 0:43:10 | |
It's bad for you. | 0:43:10 | 0:43:12 | |
I think people don't get the extent to which it is sort of corrosive of the soul. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:16 | |
There are many more important things in life | 0:43:16 | 0:43:19 | |
and that that level of wealth can actually distance you from | 0:43:19 | 0:43:23 | |
other people and distance you from the great things in life. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:27 | |
You can't live in a bubble, which is just the bubble of the rich, | 0:43:27 | 0:43:30 | |
and forgetting the world around you. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:32 | |
The City has to have much greater sense of responsibility | 0:43:32 | 0:43:36 | |
for the world around it. | 0:43:36 | 0:43:38 | |
Do you think bankers are sitting there, feeling guilty? | 0:43:38 | 0:43:42 | |
No. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:44 | |
No. I had a feeling they weren't. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:45 | |
I don't see them kneeling in penitence! | 0:43:45 | 0:43:49 | |
Did they ever get the message about how annoyed people were | 0:43:49 | 0:43:53 | |
about their behaviour? | 0:43:53 | 0:43:54 | |
Well, they feel beaten up by it. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:56 | |
They feel a bit "woe is me" about it, | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
but whether that's genuinely transformative, I'm not sure. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
And actually I don't think that the beating up of bankers | 0:44:03 | 0:44:06 | |
always helps because I think what they need is, | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
though I'm happy enough to beat up the bankers, | 0:44:09 | 0:44:11 | |
but I think what they need is another model, | 0:44:11 | 0:44:14 | |
a model of what banking could be, | 0:44:14 | 0:44:18 | |
that is socially useful, that they can aspire to, they can grow into, | 0:44:18 | 0:44:21 | |
and I think part of the problem with our society | 0:44:21 | 0:44:24 | |
is we haven't given them a model of what socially-responsible banking could look like, | 0:44:24 | 0:44:30 | |
which is what the Victorians precisely can do. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:32 | |
By the start of the 20th century, Britain was in many ways | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
unutterably different to the country inhabited by the Gurneys. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:46 | |
London was now the capital of the biggest, richest empire in the world, | 0:44:46 | 0:44:51 | |
and the bankers that had made it so, had become the wealthiest, | 0:44:51 | 0:44:55 | |
most powerful, establishment figures of their age. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:59 | |
No longer social outsiders, they were the new aristocracy | 0:44:59 | 0:45:03 | |
and lived the life of the landed gentry on their country estates. | 0:45:03 | 0:45:07 | |
Even - unthinkable a century earlier - if they were Jewish. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:12 | |
Living here at Tring Park was the head of the richest | 0:45:15 | 0:45:19 | |
and most famous banking family of all Europe - | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
Nathaniel Rothschild, known as Natty to his friends. | 0:45:22 | 0:45:26 | |
Despite his family pedigree, Natty wasn't a natural financier. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:35 | |
He'd had to leave Cambridge without taking his degree exams | 0:45:35 | 0:45:39 | |
for fear he'd fail maths. | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
But that didn't stop him running the world's biggest bank, | 0:45:42 | 0:45:46 | |
or being made Lord Rothschild, the first non-Christian ever | 0:45:46 | 0:45:50 | |
to reach such giddy heights in British society. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:53 | |
Natty loved playing lord of the manor, the grand country gent, | 0:45:57 | 0:46:01 | |
hosting lavish hunting parties, | 0:46:01 | 0:46:03 | |
in the manner of an old-fashioned, blue-blooded aristocrat. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:07 | |
And why not? In many ways, that's exactly what he was. | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
As part of the Rothschild banking dynasty, he had inherited wealth, | 0:46:11 | 0:46:16 | |
status and power to match anyone in Britain. | 0:46:16 | 0:46:19 | |
As a banking aristocrat, | 0:46:25 | 0:46:26 | |
Lord Rothschild had a rather feudal sense of duty. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:30 | |
An unusually generous landlord, he provided new cottages | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
and free medical treatment for his estate employees in Tring. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
And at the bank, he created a department | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
solely responsible for charity - an early example of corporate giving. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:46 | |
Not that everyone was always grateful. | 0:46:48 | 0:46:50 | |
The journalist Claud Cockburn, who grew up in Tring, | 0:46:52 | 0:46:55 | |
tells the story of Lord Rothschild's birthday, when he announced | 0:46:55 | 0:46:58 | |
that he would give a shilling to every child in the town of Tring. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:02 | |
All they had to do was turn up at ten o'clock that morning | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
outside the manor. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:06 | |
Very generous, it seems. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:08 | |
But Lord Rothschild had not reckoned with the enterprising people | 0:47:08 | 0:47:11 | |
of Tring, who decided that perhaps they needed a few more children, | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
so they imported them from neighbouring villages - | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
cousins, friends, anyone. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:21 | |
So the town was full the night before | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
of children staying over in barns and outhouses ready for the big day. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:27 | |
When the day dawned, there was Lord Rothschild, | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
he'd set up trestle tables piled high with silver shillings, | 0:47:30 | 0:47:35 | |
ready to give to the children. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
The gates opened and this flood of children came to get their shillings, | 0:47:37 | 0:47:40 | |
and the ones who were first in the queue, | 0:47:40 | 0:47:42 | |
took the shilling, ran round the back and then came forward again. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
So there was a constant queue of children being given | 0:47:46 | 0:47:49 | |
these shillings, and of course they began to run out. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:51 | |
And Lord Rothschild had to send out to Aylesbury, to Watford, | 0:47:51 | 0:47:55 | |
even to London, to get more shillings. | 0:47:55 | 0:47:57 | |
Even that wasn't good enough and eventually the pile disappeared. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
One father claimed that that day his children had made him the equivalent | 0:48:01 | 0:48:05 | |
of two and a half weeks' wages, with two bottles of whisky thrown in. | 0:48:05 | 0:48:10 | |
There's gratitude for you! | 0:48:10 | 0:48:11 | |
Rothschild's wider charity was on a stupendous scale, | 0:48:15 | 0:48:19 | |
particularly to the thousands of Jewish refugees | 0:48:19 | 0:48:22 | |
who'd been coming to Britain since the 1880s | 0:48:22 | 0:48:25 | |
to escape persecution in Russia. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:27 | |
It wasn't just that he was sympathetic to their plight. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:31 | |
To him, it was a religious obligation. | 0:48:31 | 0:48:33 | |
This synagogue, Victorian London's finest, | 0:48:35 | 0:48:37 | |
was founded by Natty's brother. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
Lord Rothschild was a very religious Jew, | 0:48:41 | 0:48:45 | |
with a strong sense of noblesse or richesse oblige. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:50 | |
And it's a fundamental principle of Judaism | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
that all Jews are responsible for one another, | 0:48:52 | 0:48:55 | |
and he realised here were people arriving, not knowing the language, | 0:48:55 | 0:49:00 | |
many of them very poor indeed, and he felt an enormous patrician | 0:49:00 | 0:49:04 | |
sense of responsibility, which is really a Jewish imperative. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:09 | |
The amount of money he gave, | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
there was something like £15,000 a year then for a Jewish school, | 0:49:11 | 0:49:17 | |
there were youth clubs and housing projects. | 0:49:17 | 0:49:19 | |
This is vast charity. | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
Is that necessary? Is that compulsory? | 0:49:22 | 0:49:26 | |
Absolute minimum 10%, | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
but if you are wealthy, no limits. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:33 | |
The key word in Judaism is "tzedakah", | 0:49:33 | 0:49:36 | |
which you can't easily translate into English because it means both charity and justice. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:42 | |
In English, something can't be both. | 0:49:42 | 0:49:44 | |
If I give you £1,000 because I owe it to you, that's justice. | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
If I don't owe it to you but I think you need it, that's charity, | 0:49:47 | 0:49:51 | |
so it's either one or other. In Judaism, it's both. | 0:49:51 | 0:49:55 | |
And therefore for us, tzedakah, which we'd see as charity, | 0:49:55 | 0:49:58 | |
is not something we give out of the generosity of our heart | 0:49:58 | 0:50:02 | |
it's something we give because we must. | 0:50:02 | 0:50:04 | |
Rothschild used his money every way he could, | 0:50:06 | 0:50:09 | |
even refusing to do business with Russia | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
while persecution of the Jews continued there. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:15 | |
But there were real limits to what he and others could do. | 0:50:15 | 0:50:20 | |
So this was the conundrum. | 0:50:21 | 0:50:23 | |
In Natty Rothschild, we have a very wealthy man | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
who was genuinely trying to direct his wealth towards the public good. | 0:50:26 | 0:50:29 | |
And not just his own wealth, that of the bank too. | 0:50:29 | 0:50:33 | |
No-one could accuse him of not being philanthropic. | 0:50:33 | 0:50:36 | |
And this do-gooding spread throughout the rest of society. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:40 | |
A survey in the 1890s showed that the average British household | 0:50:40 | 0:50:44 | |
was spending 10% of its income on charitable giving. | 0:50:44 | 0:50:48 | |
That's the single largest item of expenditure apart from food. | 0:50:48 | 0:50:53 | |
But despite all this generosity, | 0:50:53 | 0:50:56 | |
the sad fact remained that poverty and distress | 0:50:56 | 0:51:00 | |
was still all around and in some cases seemed to be getting worse. | 0:51:00 | 0:51:04 | |
However extensive, however strategic, however well-directed, | 0:51:04 | 0:51:09 | |
philanthropy on its own was never going to be enough. | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
It was increasingly clear | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
that though banking had made Britain great | 0:51:21 | 0:51:23 | |
and the rich extraordinarily wealthy, | 0:51:23 | 0:51:26 | |
it was not a progressive engine of social change. | 0:51:26 | 0:51:29 | |
In fact, the country was facing extremes of destitution | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
that no amount of thrift, self-help or do-gooding could solve. | 0:51:35 | 0:51:40 | |
Some people began to think the unthinkable - | 0:51:41 | 0:51:44 | |
that for a just society, the State itself would have to provide. | 0:51:44 | 0:51:49 | |
In 1906, the new Liberal Government was elected with the radical agenda | 0:51:56 | 0:52:00 | |
to "lift the shadow of the workhouse from the homes of the poor". | 0:52:00 | 0:52:04 | |
They introduced reforms | 0:52:04 | 0:52:06 | |
that laid the foundations for the Welfare State - | 0:52:06 | 0:52:08 | |
free school meals, National Insurance, old age pensions. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:13 | |
To pay for reform, in 1909, the Chancellor, Lloyd George, | 0:52:19 | 0:52:23 | |
announced what became known as the People's Budget. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:27 | |
It was the first British budget ever with the express purpose | 0:52:27 | 0:52:31 | |
of using tax to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor. | 0:52:31 | 0:52:36 | |
For bankers like Rothschild, however philanthropic, | 0:52:37 | 0:52:41 | |
this was heresy. | 0:52:41 | 0:52:42 | |
Lord Rothschild was absolutely opposed to any increase in taxation. | 0:52:46 | 0:52:50 | |
He believed the rich should do their duty to the poor, | 0:52:50 | 0:52:53 | |
but that this should be voluntary, | 0:52:53 | 0:52:55 | |
a matter of private conscience, | 0:52:55 | 0:52:57 | |
and not something to be taken over by the State. | 0:52:57 | 0:53:00 | |
What's more, he argued, | 0:53:00 | 0:53:01 | |
capital should be free from taxation in order to accumulate, | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
thus stimulating economic growth and benefiting everyone. | 0:53:05 | 0:53:09 | |
It is exactly the same argument used by bankers today | 0:53:09 | 0:53:13 | |
to resist State intervention. | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
Lord Rothschild was up in arms about the People's Budget. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
He called a big protest meeting, and personally delivered | 0:53:18 | 0:53:22 | |
a petition of complaint from the City to Westminster. | 0:53:22 | 0:53:25 | |
Lord Rothschild was a political heavyweight, a big beast... | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
but so was Lloyd George. | 0:53:33 | 0:53:35 | |
The Chancellor hit back with a typical oratorical tirade. | 0:53:35 | 0:53:39 | |
"I think we are having too much of Lord Rothschild. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:42 | |
"You are not have estate duties or a super-tax. Why? | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
"Because Lord Rothschild has signed a petition | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
"on behalf of the bankers saying he will not stand for it. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
"You are not to have a tax on reversions. | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
"Why? Because Lord Rothschild says it will not do. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:57 | |
"You ought not to have old age pensions. | 0:53:57 | 0:53:59 | |
"Why? Because Lord Rothschild said it could not be done. | 0:53:59 | 0:54:03 | |
"Now, really, I would like to know, | 0:54:03 | 0:54:05 | |
"is Lord Rothschild the dictator of this country? | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
"Are we to have all the ways of reforms, | 0:54:08 | 0:54:10 | |
"both social and financial, blocked simply by a notice board - | 0:54:10 | 0:54:15 | |
"'No thoroughfare. By order of Lord Rothschild'?" | 0:54:15 | 0:54:18 | |
It was a huge political struggle, but Natty had met his match. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:27 | |
Lloyd George eventually got his budget through Parliament. | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
And what of Lord Rothschild? | 0:54:42 | 0:54:44 | |
Even he the came round eventually, | 0:54:44 | 0:54:46 | |
in the extreme national crisis of 1914. | 0:54:46 | 0:54:49 | |
"How are we pay for the war effort?" asked Lloyd George. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:55 | |
"Tax the rich!" came the unlikely reply from Lord Rothschild. | 0:54:55 | 0:54:59 | |
"And tax them heavily!" | 0:54:59 | 0:55:00 | |
And that's been more or less the policy ever since. | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
The 20th century was, overall, a great leveller. | 0:55:12 | 0:55:15 | |
With increased tax, | 0:55:15 | 0:55:16 | |
the Welfare State largely took over from philanthropy. | 0:55:16 | 0:55:20 | |
Do-gooding was nationalised! | 0:55:20 | 0:55:23 | |
So what should a rich banker today do with all that spare money | 0:55:23 | 0:55:27 | |
left after tax? | 0:55:27 | 0:55:28 | |
Not far from Tring is Waddesdon Manor, | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
built by Natty's cousin, Ferdinand de Rothschild. | 0:55:35 | 0:55:38 | |
If not happiness, it's amazing what money can buy! | 0:55:41 | 0:55:45 | |
Now owned by the National Trust, | 0:55:52 | 0:55:53 | |
it still benefits from another philanthropic financier - | 0:55:53 | 0:55:56 | |
Natty's great-grandson, Jacob, the current Lord Rothschild. | 0:55:56 | 0:56:02 | |
You still appear to be tithing. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:04 | |
You're still giving 10% away, | 0:56:04 | 0:56:07 | |
which is quite a lot more than a lot of people. Why is that? | 0:56:07 | 0:56:10 | |
I'm not a hugely extravagant liver. | 0:56:10 | 0:56:13 | |
I can't eat more than three meals a day. | 0:56:13 | 0:56:15 | |
I don't want to live in a particularly big house. | 0:56:15 | 0:56:17 | |
I love looking after a particularly big house at Waddesdon Manor. | 0:56:17 | 0:56:23 | |
But, um, so why not? | 0:56:23 | 0:56:24 | |
Is it possible to make a huge amount of money | 0:56:25 | 0:56:32 | |
and still be good? | 0:56:32 | 0:56:34 | |
It's difficult for many people to liberate themselves of their money. | 0:56:34 | 0:56:38 | |
I think that can be a problem | 0:56:38 | 0:56:40 | |
because it can become an obsessive pursuit, an addiction. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:44 | |
But, um, if you look at Bill Gates - | 0:56:44 | 0:56:45 | |
I don't know if he's the richest man in the world | 0:56:45 | 0:56:48 | |
or the second or third richest man in the world - | 0:56:48 | 0:56:51 | |
or similarly, Warren Buffett... | 0:56:51 | 0:56:53 | |
In a sense they're like fishermen who put the fish back, aren't they? | 0:56:53 | 0:56:56 | |
I mean, almost everything they've made, | 0:56:56 | 0:56:59 | |
probably over 90% of what they've made, they've returned to the world. | 0:56:59 | 0:57:04 | |
Do you think there comes a point, | 0:57:04 | 0:57:08 | |
and maybe we're at it now, | 0:57:08 | 0:57:09 | |
where the State can't do any more, can't afford to do any more | 0:57:09 | 0:57:14 | |
and the wealthy have to put their hands deeper in their pockets? | 0:57:14 | 0:57:18 | |
Well, I think if you put yourself in the position of the State... | 0:57:18 | 0:57:23 | |
I mean, the State has to withdraw money. | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
It's got to spend less. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:28 | |
And, therefore, who's going to make up the difference? | 0:57:28 | 0:57:31 | |
You have to encourage the philanthropic sector. Why not? | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
The current anger about the City... all that talk of, | 0:57:34 | 0:57:39 | |
"Oh, these people are socially useless. What are we doing here?" | 0:57:39 | 0:57:42 | |
What can the bankers, | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
what can the City do to assuage that anger? | 0:57:44 | 0:57:47 | |
What can they do? | 0:57:47 | 0:57:49 | |
Well, they can behave well and give back more. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:53 | |
I'm sure that there'd be a lot less banker bashing today, | 0:57:57 | 0:57:59 | |
if they followed the example of | 0:57:59 | 0:58:01 | |
the best of their 19th century predecessors. | 0:58:01 | 0:58:04 | |
Of course, the Gurney family, Peabody, Burdett-Coutts, | 0:58:04 | 0:58:08 | |
Lord Rothschild were rooted in their time. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:11 | |
But they wrestled with their consciences | 0:58:11 | 0:58:13 | |
and they got out their chequebooks. | 0:58:13 | 0:58:15 | |
Maybe societies get the bankers they deserve. | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 | |
Somehow, we accepted that greed was good | 0:58:18 | 0:58:22 | |
and that probity, conscience, philanthropy, do-gooding, | 0:58:22 | 0:58:26 | |
were boring, old-fashioned, Victorian values. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
Perhaps we were wrong. | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:58:54 | 0:58:57 | |
E-mail [email protected] | 0:58:57 | 0:59:00 |