Gene Kelly Talking Pictures

Dancer, actor, singer,

director, producer.

In the Hollywood of the 1940s, and '50s,

Gene Kelly was the perfect package.

He didn't just dance in some of cinema's greatest scenes,

he was the man who choreographed the dances.

He earned himself a reputation as an artist and an innovator,

We join him now for an interview he gave

at the BBC's famous Lime Grove studios on a visit to London,

with his then wife, Betsy Blair,

to promote the 1956 film Invitation To The Dance.

I have taken over reception duties at Lime Grove -

temporarily, I hasten to add -

because in a few moments we are expecting a visitor

who started life with the intention of becoming a lawyer.

But, to coin his own phrase,

he thought he might save an awful lot of people from prison,

by becoming instead one of the best-known choreographers,

dancers, actors, writers, directors in the film business.

I'd like you to meet him straightaway, here he is, Gene Kelly.

-Hello, Gene.

-Hello, Peter. How are you?

-Oh, I'm fine, thanks.

-And you?

-Just fine. It's good to be here,

and to do a little bit of work over in England.

I remember about three months ago I was talking to your wife

in this very same building.

Yes, so I understood. That was about Marty.

-Her picture.

-Of course. How is she?

-She's just fine.

She's over here now with me, and my little girl.

-We're afraid we have to leave soon, but we're glad to be here.

-Good.

-Gene, let's get straight to you, now. How did you start?

-Well, start what?

-Start coming to England, or...?

-Start in the business

Well, that's a long story.

I'm afraid it was sheer economics - I had to make a living some way.

I didn't want to do it by stealing, so.. Well, I became a dancer.

I was working my way through school, and I found out

I could do it best by doing little performances and dancing.

And I soon fell into show business. It's as simple as that.

Now, they tell me that you opened a dancing school

when you were 18 years old. Is that right?

Yes, I started to teach kids on the block

and fellow students at school, and so forth.

And I got so interested in it, I began to study very hard.

And, fortunately, it turned out very well.

After a while, though, I decided to brave New York City

and become a choreographer.

But strangely enough, nobody wanted me to be a choreographer,

so I ended up being an actor.

But afterwards, I became a choreographer.

-Gene, what was your first picture?

-Uh, Me And My Gal with Judy Garland.

Gee, that seems a long time ago!

You shouldn't ask me questions like that. I get feeling older here.

Yes, that was the first one, and then it went on from there.

-Do you remember that one?

-Well, I don't think I do.

-You're just a boy.

I tell you one I do remember, one I liked very much - The Three Musketeers.

-I liked that one myself!

-You went all over the place, didn't you?

That was hard work. But we enjoyed it.

Sort of cowboys and Indians with long wigs and beards and everything.

Yes, I liked that.

I'm glad you mentioned that - it's about the only one

-that I didn't dance in.

-INTERVIEWER LAUGHS

Gene, where did you develop this particular style of dancing

which is very much all your own.

Well, it...

I, believe it or not, was a classic ballet dancer first,

and a lot of things I tried to say,

I found I couldn't quite say.

For instance, if I wanted to play a truck driver in movies, that is,

you can say anything you want with classic ballet,

but playing a part and having to dress like a truck driver

instead of dressing in a classical costume,

I decided to try and work out a style that would go along

with American speech and American moves, American jazz music, and so forth.

So, I did work hard at developing a style of my own.

Whether this is successful or not, we'll leave that to you to judge,

but it was with malice aforethought that I did it all.

Let's talk, if we may, a little while,

about Invitation To The Dance.

Oh, good. I'd like to talk about that.

First of all, where did you get the idea?

-Let's start like that.

-Oh, I've had it a long time.

It originally started because I'd been in so many films

and we always had trouble getting some of the dancers we wanted

because a dancer spends all his life learning to dance,

then he gets in a film and they say, "Here's a scene, you act in it,"

and, "Here's a song, you sing it," and so forth.

And so a lot of good dancers - and I mean wonderful dancers -

never have the opportunity to work in films because of this,

because they can't act.

So, I said, "Wouldn't it be wonderful one day if we made a film

"that was about dancers and for dancers."

So, I've had this bee in my bonnet for a long time.

The trouble was selling it, you see, selling the idea,

and spending all that money on a film with no dialogue, and...

just dancers in it

and, if I may say it, no Hollywood people.

-You say no dialogue?

-No dialogue. No, it's all dancing.

Really, all dancing.

Do you find that dancing in television

and dancing in films has maybe drawn a lot of people to the ballet?

Well, I know... I can't answer for England, of course,

but I know in America that the interest in Sadler's Wells,

for example, was so popular when I visited there,

that people just jammed the theatre to see them.

I know a big reason for that was ballet films,

-particularly, I must say, the English film Red Shoes.

-Oh, yes.

So, it has had a great effect on popularising ballet in America.

I'm sure it must have over here too.

It probably has. Like so many other things, when you see something

at home on your television screen, you want to see more of it.

Well, I'm glad to hear that.

Oh, Mr Kelly, please! We're ready now.

I think I must go and make a living.

Gene, just before you do go, one more question.

Any regrets at all about not being a lawyer?

Any regrets... Uh...

No, I don't think so!

Goodbye!

So, there goes Gene Kelly, and the best of luck to him.

-SYLVIA SYMS:

-After dominating dance on the silver screen for over 20 years,

20th Century Fox gave Kelly the chance to direct the 1969 musical Hello, Dolly,

starring Barbra Streisand, Walter Matthau,

and Michael Crawford, who talks about working with Kelly

in this interview for the programme Line Up Film Night.

They got me together with Gene Kelly in San Francisco

and I spent half an hour just talking to him,

and he said, "Can you sing?"

And I said, "Well, yes, I can sort of sing."

And, "What about your dancing?"

And I said, "Well, I'd done a bit in the bath," you know.

And he...he didn't laugh at that.

And he said, "Well, can you do this?"

He did a little...thing. And I got very scared at that point, and...

I said, "Well, I really don't..."

He said, "Come on, just do it! Just try putting those two legs there and there."

And I had a go, and it was really very messy, but he said...

"Well, I think it's worth doing a test.

"What we need is a sort of, erm, person who is a...has some charm,

"but is a sort of an idiot.

"Well, my wife thinks you've got charm and I think

"you're a bit of an idiot, so you stand a good chance of doing this."

I think it's the best thing he could ever direct.

I don't think anyone else could have directed it

anywhere near as well as him, but, uh, um,

maybe I can just say that quietly.

Because he has done an incredible job with it.

It has all the feeling that he had in his films.

He generates enthusiasm...

..and tremendous vitality.

He is 26!

He's...my age! I'm 27.

But the boy with me in the film is a dancer, since he was that high.

Now, we did... You can do things like cartwheels with no hands -

they're called butterflies.

The boy I was with could do four.

Kelly could do six, and he's 56.

And that is really something.

He's still got so much energy, that man.

He works seven days a week.

And I used to have to work seven days a week out there

because of dancing, everything I'm learning,

so I got a special pass to work on Saturdays.

He'd come, cos he knew that was going on. He'd want to be there.

He'd come up to the house and say, "I've got a great idea for Monday,"

and it's a change of half a line, or something.

But his enthusiasm just doesn't stop him from wanting to work

and work and work.

-SYMS:

-Hello, Dolly, won three Academy Awards

and was nominated for another four.

Despite that success,

musicals were no longer as popular as they had been.

But in 1974, the surprise hit That's Entertainment

had Kelly topping the box office once again,

meaning new interest in his career, and an encounter with Barry Norman.

Dancing is not all that joyful when you're putting it on film.

It's great joy in creating it,

but it's a chore to get it in that box.

It's a big chore.

And, uh, it's a lot of sweat, blood and tears.

You were quite late starting in films, weren't you?

-You were already 30 when you made For Me And My Gal.

-Yes.

I was exactly 30. I left Broadway...

Yes, I turned 30 in the middle of the film.

Working with Judy in my first film, I was automatically in a hit

cos she was such a big star.

People liked her, and I sort of tagged along behind her,

and I did very well.

One of our critics described you as a greater film artist than Astaire.

Now, I'm sure your modesty will forbid you to accept this,

but modesty apart...

Well, I...

No, it has nothing to do with modesty. I, um...

Fred, whom I dearly love,

and admire, was the epitome of American dance for ten years.

And that was quite important. I think he kept the dance alive.

It's true that he danced with Ginger Rogers and they were a team -

it was in the old... it was the older tradition.

But he was the American dance to people all around the world.

What would you say was your own major contribution to the musical?

It would seem to me that you were the man

who brought muscle and sweat and athleticism into dance.

Well, that...that...that might be true, but I feel

that my biggest contribution was changing the costume.

Whereas the male dancer in movies was always

representative of the upper classes,

I certainly couldn't be because of... not only the way I danced,

the way I wear clothes.

If I put on a...evening dress - a white tie and tails -

I look like a truck driver. The Iceman Cometh.

NORMAN LAUGHS

I think the outfit,

changing into sweatshirt and blue jeans and moccasins,

visually changing the look of the male dancer,

might have been, uh...

my greatest contribution. I don't know.

I remember, I suppose On The Town was the one I remember most vividly,

that all of a sudden, and it seemed to me for the first time in a musical,

the song and the dance came spontaneously out of the action.

That was a contribution you made, surely.

Yes, we did it on location. We did On The Town on location

and we did it as real people coming down real streets in New York City.

And the sailor suits show your body

just the same as a ballet dancer wearing tights.

You can see how he dances.

# New York, New York

# New York, New York

# New York, New York

# It's a wonderful town... #

MAN LAUGHS

Hey, fellas. What's the big rush!

-We only got 24 hours!

-Yeah!

-And we never been here before!

Ah, what can happen to you in one day. What do you think you'll do?

THEY HOWL AND BARK

# New York, New York A wonderful town

# The Bronx is up and the Battery's down

# The people ride in a hole in the ground

# New York, New York

# It's a wonderful town. #

But didn't the studio think with On the Town

that they had a disaster on their hands?

They thought going to New York

was the most ridiculous thing in the world, yes.

-They wanted to do it all in the back lot?

-Oh, sure. "Why not?" they said.

-Cheaper.

-Yes. And quicker, yes.

-But it was your idea to take it to New York?

-Yes.

-Why?

Because I knew it would work. I somehow knew it would work.

Maybe if I'd been older and wiser,

I would've said, "I shouldn't take that kind of a risk."

But I felt it was time to do it.

And I had planned out ways to hide the camera

so that we didn't need a police force around us

to hold people back, and we could shoot very quickly. And we did.

# We've sailed the seas and we've been the world over

# Been to Mandalay

# We've seen the Sphinx and seen the cliffs of Dover

# But we can safely say

# The most fabulous sight is New York in the light of the day

# Our only day

# New York, New York A wonderful town

# The Bronx is up and the Battery's down

# The people riding a hole in the ground

# New York, New York It's a wonderful town! #

Well, let's talk about the musical which I suppose has got to be

among almost everybody's top two or three musicals

and that's Singin' In The Rain. How much of that was scripted?

Because I can't imagine a script that says,

"At this point, Gene goes dancing up and down through puddles."

No. No script.

Usually the scripts that were written about musicals

would say, "Here Kelly or Astaire or O'Connor does a dance

"and it stops the show."

Usually they'd say something like that.

It's up to the choreographer to supply a great deal.

# Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo

# Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo

# Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo

# I'm singin' in the rain

# Just singin' in the rain

# What a glorious feelin'

# I'm happy again

# I'm laughing at clouds

# So dark up above

# The sun's in my heart

# And I'm ready for love... #

The Singin' In The Rain number per se

was done because it's a charming song.

The producer who happened to write it, Arthur Freed, said,

"What are you going to do with this now? We've done it a couple of times before."

I said, "It's going to be raining and I'm going to be singing."

And it was one of the easiest numbers I've ever had to put together.

That's fantastic, because it's the one everybody remembers.

It's... It's a joyous number.

I think people like to see joy on the screen.

I think I had a long career as a dancer. I think I've been very lucky.

The...

Things combine to do things to a dancer, or any kind of athlete.

When you...

When you go into this type of vocation, you have to be...

Or you should be intelligent enough to know that you're not going to

last as long as a painter or a musician or a writer.

Because the tools with which you work - the tool, I should say -

is your anatomy.

And you're at your peak when you're about 25, physically.

Except you don't know anything. You're fairly stupid.

When you begin to mature, which I will do when I'm about 80...

When you begin to mature, you begin to deteriorate physically.

So, a dancer is disproportionately fighting against himself.

Um... One has to learn to pace oneself.

And you can do a better number, and that,

but you still can't jump over the same table you could ten years ago.

So, you say, "Oh, I'll have to cut that out."

And you have to substitute something else.

I love everything about show business.

I can't imagine myself in any other trade. I don't know any other trade.

But even if I had to hang around and just work lights or something,

I think I'd enjoy it. I do love show business.

Two years after That's Entertainment came the inevitable sequel

and a date with Michael Parkinson that showed just why Kelly

never lost his status as a true Hollywood legend.

APPLAUSE

You were telling me also too... People tend to think now

of song and dance men and musicals as being a thing of the past,

which indeed they are in terms of film.

But you mentioned to me earlier that, in fact, tap dancing

is coming back as a vogue now?

Yes, that's true.

And I was talking to Mr Astaire two weeks ago

when we were doing a little thing introducing some clips and so forth,

in That's Entertainment II,

and he said, "Look at this silly letter I got.

"I have to fill it in." I said, "Look, I got the same letter."

It was from a university.

I won't mention the university, quite a good university in America.

And we get a lot of these things...

They're looking at tap dancing now

as some kind of a basic American art form.

And I guess it is that.

-We never looked at it that way.

-Yeah.

We just got up there, took our check and went home!

LAUGHTER

And they're asking you, are they, to sort of teach them how to do it?

-I thought that was water!?

-It is water.

LAUGHTER

Yes. Yes, they said... Have a sip of that.

-You got lucky.

-LAUGHTER

-Well, I worked this morning.

-That's right.

But let's go back and talk about Fred Astaire because, as I mentioned

in my introduction, you're the two great giants of the film musical.

What, in fact, was the basic difference between the two of you?

Well, there's a great difference between the two of us.

One of the reasons, I guess, for our friendship

is that we often get together and talk about it

over dinner or a drink or something. And...

Fred started dancing in vaudeville at a very early age

with his sister, Adele.

As a matter of fact, he was very popular here in England.

And they danced in musical comedies long before talking pictures.

And Adele ran off and married

an English lord or a count or someone like that.

-I think it was the Earl of Cavendish, wasn't it?

-That's right. It was.

And here Fred was all alone,

so they sent him out to Hollywood to go into talking pictures.

And his first partner was Joan Crawford.

And... Then he latched onto Ginger Rogers.

And they had a successful career of I don't know how many years.

But they were really the stars of the American film

and they represented American dance.

But Fred's success, I believe, was his elegance,

his particular style which was unique - nobody can really dance like him.

And when I wanted to dance,

I started on the Broadway Theatre a couple of decades later.

And I wanted to dance like Marlon Brando wanted to act.

Roll up my sleeves and say, "Hey..." LAUGHTER

If there is a difference,

I would categorise it as saying...

Let's see how I can put it succinctly,

that Fred is sort of... He represents the aristocracy when he dances.

And I represent the proletariat.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

Up the rebels!

I was going to ask you about the first act that you ever did

when you went on stage with your brother.

Well, my brother taught me to tap dance.

Because we were going to speakeasies, which existed until 1932.

And we'd go to amateur nights

where they'd hold the handkerchief over your head

and whoever got the most applause got the five dollars.

The next was three, and the next two.

Of course, if you were in an Italian neighbourhood

you knew the accordion player would get the five dollars.

No matter what he played!

Miss the notes, he'd hit the wrong key - he'd get the five dollars.

So, if we'd see the accordion player, nothing happened...

But we'd... That's where we got our training.

My brother taught me to tap dance very quickly

and we formed this poor little act.

And then we tried to improve on it and we put on roller skates.

And we were gymnasts. We were on a gymnastic team in high school.

And we did a tap dance on roller skates,

and we were foolish enough to put acrobatics into it,

which I would never do today, you see.

But, in fact, that background, you put some of it into a film, didn't you?

-I did that in a film, yes.

-In It's Always Fair Weather.

-We've got that clip with us now.

-Oh, you have? I'd love to see that.

It's one of my favourite sequences.

It just shows how good That's Entertainment Part I was

because, in fact, it wasn't in that.

It's one of my favourite sequences of all-time. Let's have a look.

APPLAUSE

You've...

-You've got to be a little nutty to do that.

-I think so!

Everybody always says to me,

"Of course, the wheels were locked on those skates."

I'm going, "Bzzzz..."

I say... I don't know how they look at the film and say that.

-It's beautiful, that. Super.

-Thank you.

-Did you ever fall down when you were rehearsing that?

-No.

No, those steps were easier than the ones I did with my brother,

-so there was no problem.

-Easier?

Yes, because we used to do backflips and things.

As I grew older and more mature, you see, I kept that out.

You danced with a mouse and all kinds of... Some kids you performed with.

But once you also danced with Francis Albert Sinatra, didn't you?

Yes.

-Would you say he was...?

-He danced with Eugene Curran Kelly, yes!

LAUGHTER

What was...? Were there any special problems involved

-in teaching Mr Sinatra how to dance?

-Yes...

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

First, he was...

He didn't know how to dance - that was the first problem.

But he was very good at rhythm.

And he had had two pictures that didn't go down well

that he had done at another studio.

So, he came to me and asked me if I'd work with him on it.

I told him he'd have to really work like a boxer, prizefighter, every day.

And, after about a week, he became a bit recalcitrant

because I'd make him do the same thing over and over again.

But he got quite good.

And then, of course, I would do things that were within his range.

I wouldn't give him exactly what I'd give Igor Youskevitch, you know.

But he became quite adept and a very good partner.

And, of course, he was very good for me, and I'm very grateful to him

because when I'd work with someone like Francis Albert,

or Judith Garland... LAUGHTER

..or Judy, see, they would sing the ballads in the show,

and I wouldn't have to sing the ballad, I would sing the... # I got rhythm... #

I could sing the song and dance man stuff.

-So, it was very good for me to work with them.

-Yes.

But occasionally I would get stuck with a ballad,

when the other person wasn't a good ballad singer.

That's when I appreciated Francis Albert the most!

In fact, you're selling yourself short,

because I remember the film Cover Girl.

-You sang a beautiful Kern number, Long Ago And Far Away...

-Yeah, I had to sing the ballad!

..which is a beautiful song.

Well, Mr Kern was known for his, erm, sternness on Broadway,

and I had just come from the theatre a short time ago,

and Kern and I, or Gershwin, had written this song, and...

..I was ready to record it.

And in those days they put you in a glass booth,

and the orchestra was over there,

and I didn't know how to do that, to begin with.

But I had learned the song,

and just before we were going to take it, in walked Mr Kern.

He sat down on a chair like this. Well, I was scared to death!

I was shaking. I thought he'd, y'know, say, "Throw that bum out!"

So I come out and I said, "Well, Mr Kern, I can do better than that.

"Next take, you'll see, Mr Kern, I'll do much better."

He said, "What? That's fine!"

And years later, I thought to myself,

"Well, he expected much worse!"

LAUGHTER

Frank Sinatra says, actually, about working with you

in this excellent book that Clive Hirschhorn's written about you,

he said that you paid him the ultimate compliment

after eight weeks of working with him.

"Francis, you've worked your way up from being lousy to adequate."

LAUGHTER

Well, if he said that to Clive, who's in the audience, I know,

because I passed him coming in, it must be true.

You're very much a perfectionist.

I mean, it shows in your work that we see on screen.

Would you say that you're a difficult man to work with?

Any dancer has to be a perfectionist,

because if a dancer gets up and dances across the stage

and stumbles or falls, he's a bum.

If a singer hits a high note, he laughs and he goes right on,

or he says, "Whoops! It's not on the cue card!"

-You can't dance off a cue card.

-Yeah.

You have to dance, you have to know the dance.

And the music keeps on going, you can't make it up.

If you make a slip, you can't say, "Whoops, let's start again."

So, if a dancer falls or stumbles

or makes a bad move or a ghost gesture of any kind,

he's out of luck.

So, you have to be highly disciplined.

I think the dancer is as highly disciplined as the...

..symphony orchestra player,

who has to take the conductor's beat right away.

-Mm.

-Except he's sitting down all the time.

A dancer has to work with his body.

Was there anything left unfulfilled after your career in Hollywood,

anything that you wanted to do with the film dance

that you didn't manage to do?

No. When the bottom dropped out of the musical comedy "market" again,

to use the Hollywood term...

Because when Elvis Presley and the Beatles and other groups

took over the record business,

records became more profitable...

..than making movies or doing plays.

If you do a movie now or a play now and you have a hit album,

-you'll make more money off the album than you make from the show.

-Yes.

And there's no use complaining about it. It's one of the facts of life.

And the statistics, I think, are

85% of the records sold in America now,

and I believe it's around the world, are sold to...

..9-, 10-, 11-, 12-, 13-, 14-year-old groups.

And they buy the rock and the country and western records.

And they account for 85% of the records sold,

so naturally they want to push them.

It's true they don't last very long.

One group comes up and dies, one group comes up and dies,

but they sell a great amount of records.

And we as adults,

our musical listening habits

are formed by 12-year-olds, whether we like it or not.

Mine aren't.

Well, then you must go home and lock yourself in,

cos if you get in the car and turn on your radio, you'll hear rock music.

And some of it's very good. I'm afraid that most of it's...

..the bands are electronically produced

and they use about three chords,

and most of it's not very good. But some is very good, yes...

as some of anything is good.

But what's interesting is that if you,

who've written your own chapter in the history of movies,

if you were starting out now, as the young Gene Kelly,

what on earth would you do?

-I'd try to do the same thing.

-But could you, you see?

Well, I never meant to be a movie actor.

I went to Broadway to be a choreographer.

But if I went to be a choreographer,

I'd do the dance that was in style, I guess,

-or try to create my own dance and make a style out of it.

-Mm.

-I think I'd do the same thing, but who knows?

-Yes.

Do you have, when you look back...

Are there any parts that you missed in your movie career,

any musicals that you wanted to do,

were scheduled for and didn't do them?

Uh, nothing that I was scheduled for.

-Yes, I was scheduled for one called Guys And Dolls.

-Really?

Sam Goldwyn wanted to borrow me from MGM,

but Nicholas Schenck, the head of MGM, had a feud on with him

and wouldn't lend me out to him.

You see, they loaned out players like baseball or football players.

We were all in a contract.

So, that was the only one I really wanted to do.

-That was the Brando part, presumably, was it?

-Yes.

And Sam was very honest.

He said he'd wait three months and if he didn't get me

then he would get the best actor and make it more of an acting part.

Yes.

Damn. But one film you did make which I suppose is...

I don't know, it's your trademark now, isn't it?

-..was Singin' In The Rain, which is...

-I guess so, yes.

I mean, I play it over and over again. I've got it on tape.

And I think it's flawless as a musical comedy.

-I think it's absolutely beautiful.

-I think it's a film that might last.

LAUGHTER

-No, I'm serious!

-It'll last for ever.

-Very few films last.

They date. They date themselves.

But what's good about Singin' In The Rain is that it's all true.

-All of that happened.

-Really?

-Yes!

When the studios turned over into sound, all of that happened.

-All of those incidents are true.

-Those lovely Jean Hagen things.

They're all true. They're all true.

It was beautiful.

# I'm dancin'...

# ..and singin'...

# ..in the rain. #

APPLAUSE

And that's Hollywood!

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd