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military commission. We examine the history of their capture and | :00:01. | :00:07. | |
imprisonment. Viewers may find some of the images distressing. | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
Waterboarding, that is a simulated drowning, was one of the most | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
controversial aspects on the war of terror for America. It was carried | :00:17. | :00:24. | |
out by the CIA and video. Jose Rodriguez was the man who ran BCA's | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
top secret programme in the years immediately after SEP- 11, when | :00:29. | :00:36. | |
fears of a second strike were all too real. -- the CIA. When you are | :00:36. | :00:46. | |
:00:46. | :00:48. | ||
waterboarding anyone or use these techniques, it is an honest example. | :00:48. | :00:57. | |
We can now reveal what is on these videos. Was he see? He was not. He | :00:57. | :01:07. | |
:01:07. | :01:29. | ||
was experiencing some physical America's detention centre in | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba has become synonymous with torture and the | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
abuses of the war on terror. President Barack Obama promised to | :01:39. | :01:46. | |
shut it down, but has been unable to do so. Instead, he is using | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
Guantanamo Bay as a site for a military tribunal to try Khalid | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
Sheikh Mohammed, and four of his co-conspirators. Torture will | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
become one of the most contentious issues at the trial. The 9/11 | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
defendants cases are important terrorism cases of all time. BT is | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
critically important for the public to know what happens, for the truth, | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
however Ardley, to come out -- at is critically. -- however ugly. | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
Today, the painful memories of 9/11 are reflected in a memorial garden | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
at the site where the twin towers once stood. President Barack Obama | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
always wanted Abu Zubaydah to be tried in the dock, the sights of | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
the atrocities that he masterminded on SEP- 11 -- Australian. The | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
Preston had to back down after fierce opposition from the Congress | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
-- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. The trouser nabbing her that Guantanamo | :02:55. | :03:05. | |
:03:05. | :03:06. | ||
Bay. -- the trials are now being held at. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
also involved in other attacks. He was an evil man. He was one of the | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
most evil man that I had ever come across. He was seeking different | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
ways of trying to kill us. And to kill awry lies. Khalid Sheikh | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
Mohammed has admitted to having planned and executed the attacks of | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
11th September. He also admitted that he personally be added the | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
American journalist Daniel Pearl five months after 9/11. He was | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
iconic on the organisation, not just for his role in 9/11, but for | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
his role in Al-Qaeda. For months, the CIA knew nothing about Khalid | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
Sheikh Mohammed, he was just a name on the intelligence database. Well | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
they knew was that the plan of 9/11 was known as Mukhtar, the chosen | :04:00. | :04:09. | |
one. The interrogation was to unlock his true identity. In the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
months after 9/11, the White House was determined to do all it could | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
to prevent another attack. It took an unprecedented step. It | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
authorised the CIA to use aggressive and highly controversial | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
techniques at its sites. These and hence in interrogation techniques | :04:27. | :04:37. | |
:04:37. | :04:45. | ||
were designed to break the suspects. Abu Zubaydah was the person they | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
tested it on. He knew a lot about the funding and leadership of Al- | :04:51. | :05:01. | |
:05:01. | :05:05. | ||
Qaeda. He was a senior Al-Qaeda figure. He was very smart. | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan's six months after 9/11, following a | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
fierce gun battle in which she was seriously wounded. He was then | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
granted to a secret CIA interrogation centre, known as a | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
black sight. It is believed to be in Thailand. He was initially it | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
into the by FBI agents who never laid a finger on him. Using non- | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
violent interrogation techniques, they got him to deliver the Crown | :05:34. | :05:44. | |
:05:44. | :05:45. | ||
Jewels. The identity of the mastermind of 9/11. When Khalid | :05:45. | :05:54. | |
Sheikh Mohammed's photo came up, Abu Zubaydah grabs me. I wondered | :05:54. | :06:04. | |
:06:04. | :06:05. | ||
if he was playing a game with me. He said that that was Mukhtar. His | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
name had been in the chatter, but we did not know what his name was. | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
The CAA decided that Abu Zubaydah was not giving enough, and a | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
decision was made to activate enhanced interrogation techniques. | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
We were dead in the water. He was shut down and we needed to come up | :06:28. | :06:35. | |
with alternative techniques that would convince the terraced that he | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
-- the terrorist that he had no control over the situation. His | :06:41. | :06:50. | |
fate was in our hands. PCR a's top lawyer believed it was essential to | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
have be secret techniques authorised at the price level -- | :06:53. | :07:03. | |
:07:03. | :07:05. | ||
the CIA. I made this decision to make sure we were not going to | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
conduct these kinds of Unprecedented activities without | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
the fall and complete legal policy and approval of the highest levels | :07:16. | :07:25. | |
of the Bush administration. confinement box like a dog kennel | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
was constructed. Abu Zubaydah was shut inside in total darkness for | :07:29. | :07:39. | |
hours on end. He was subjected to the most extreme techniques, being | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
waterboarded 83 times. US government lawyers claim that it's, | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
like other techniques, was lawful because the pain and suffering was | :07:49. | :07:59. | |
:07:59. | :07:59. | ||
not so be it. A top secret memo to John Reserve from the department of | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
justice describe the process in chillingly mundane detail -- John | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
:08:12. | :08:23. | ||
Reza OP -- so the hour. -- John Rizzo, severe. It reduces the | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
perception of drowning. captivity of Abu Zubaydah was | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
required either 92 videotapes. Some showing him undergoing the | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
techniques in graphic detail. Do you regard them as torture? I do | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
not. I think they fit any definition that anyone has of | :08:43. | :08:50. | |
torture. They have physical and emotional pain that was inflicted - | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
- I do believe they were tortured. They are abhorrent and | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
reprehensible. A year after his capture, the CIA finally closed in | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. In 2003, he was captain Pakistani its loan | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
to a secret black sight for interrogation. There ought to be in | :09:18. | :09:28. | |
:09:28. | :09:31. | ||
pollen -- he was captured in Pakistan's and taken to a secret. - | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
- the third to be in Poland. He was deprived of sleep for three weeks | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
and lives in a nappy and was naked. What is the effect of depriving | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
someone of sleep for seven days, naked and wearing only a nappy? | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
think they become vulnerable and they recognise that their condition | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
is one they want to work for Leeds and it is best to co-operate with | :10:03. | :10:13. | |
:10:13. | :10:15. | ||
us -- one they want to avoid. was waterboarded 183 times. Khalid | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
Sheikh Mohammed was not waterboarded 183 times. He had won | :10:22. | :10:31. | |
hard and 83 applications of water. That only lasted ten seconds -- 183 | :10:31. | :10:40. | |
applications. It amounted to less than 60 minutes. Isn't that an | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
extreme infliction of suffering? Khalid Sheikh Mohammed would start | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
counting with fingers on his hands to let us know that the ten seconds | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
was about to come up, because he knew that usually that's when it | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
stopped. That does not sound like a man who was concerned about dying. | :11:03. | :11:13. | |
Does it? I did not anticipate that the waterboarding would be used. | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
Especially as often as it was. After several weeks, Khalid Sheikh | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
Mohammed finally reached breaking- point and started to talk. | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
terrorists have huge egos, they cannot wait to tell you how smart | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
they are, how capable they are, how evil they are. At some point, they | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
give it up. In his case, when he gave it up, he would not stop | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
talking. If, as a result of the application of these techniques, | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
lives, perhaps many lives were saved, it doesn't the end justified | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
the means? Torture is universally abhorred, it is banned under | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
international law and it is banned by domestic law within the United | :12:02. | :12:11. | |
knew what was happening to our detainees. When I drove prime every | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
night I wondered whether this was the direction we had to go. Then I | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
saw the fallen faces in the New York Times and the detailed reports | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
that helped us to prevent plots. I thought they would be a child | :12:25. | :12:35. | |
:12:35. | :12:38. | ||
growing up in New York or Los Jose Rodriguez and the CIA insist | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
that the techniques work. It included confirmation of the Korea | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
who eventually led the CRA to Osama Bin Laden's hideout in the heart of | :12:51. | :13:01. | |
:13:01. | :13:03. | ||
Pakistan. We intercepted a message. He was told to not tell them | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
anything about the career. He gave us a lot of information that fall- | :13:09. | :13:17. | |
out us to take down a lot of terrorists. Ms Khalid Sheikh | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
Mohammed also talked about a plot to attack Heathrow Airport and | :13:21. | :13:30. | |
Canary Wharf. It was to be masterminded by his co-accused. | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
was the person who was going to be in charge of this operation. Khalid | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
Sheikh Mohammed confirmed everything that we had been told. | :13:40. | :13:50. | |
:13:50. | :13:51. | ||
The plan was to hijack aeroplanes out of Eastern Europe. They had | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
looked over a certain air force that they considered to have little | :13:54. | :14:02. | |
security. They were going to hijack these in a similar plot to a 9/11 | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
and fly them into Heathrow Airport. But the use of the secret | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
techniques subsequently produced an explosive fall-out. 12 of the tapes | :14:15. | :14:25. | |
showed a prisoners being subjected to the techniques. Jose Rodriguez | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
decided to stop any future recordings. They were locked away | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
for three years. When news of the side slit doubt, Rodriguez decided | :14:35. | :14:43. | |
to destroy them. Why did you decide to destroy these tapes? I did it to | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
protect the officers whose faces were shown in interrogations. | :14:48. | :14:58. | |
:14:58. | :14:59. | ||
that the only reason? Yes. Our lawyer has said that it was illegal. | :14:59. | :15:09. | |
:15:09. | :15:10. | ||
I was angry. I was also a bit hurt. I made it clear to them that he did | :15:10. | :15:18. | |
not have the authority. It was not his call to destroy those tapes. | :15:18. | :15:26. | |
he disobeyed orders? Yes. Up until now, what was on the tapes has | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
remained a closely guarded secret. But it is a secret no more. I | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
understand they show that a man vomiting and screaming as he was | :15:37. | :15:45. | |
being water awarded. What do the tapes show about his reaction? | :15:45. | :15:55. | |
:15:55. | :15:58. | ||
not know about the reaction. you see those tapes? I did not. | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
Rodriguez says his interrogators insist there was no vomiting or | :16:02. | :16:11. | |
screaming. John Rizzo sent a s t r a lawyer to watch all 92 tapes. -- | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
A CIA it lawyer. He confirmed they were in concordance with the | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
guidelines. But he was disturbed by a reaction. They were | :16:26. | :16:34. | |
extraordinarily hard to watch. did they show? I am not going to | :16:34. | :16:44. | |
:16:44. | :16:47. | ||
get into specifics. He was reacting visibly in a very disturbing way. | :16:47. | :16:56. | |
Was he being sick? He was experiencing some physical | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
difficulties. I will leave it at that. Was he screaming? That I do | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
not know. But not easy to watch. told me they were very hard to | :17:12. | :17:22. | |
:17:22. | :17:29. | ||
watch. I understand that the tape or tapes show him for vomiting and | :17:29. | :17:37. | |
screaming. I do not know where you got that wrong. I did not know that. | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Two days after the Tate's destruction, there was a secret | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
memorandum. It suggests that projecting their identities of the | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
interrogators was not his only concern. The heat from destroying | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
is nothing compared to what it would be if the tapes ever got into | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
the public domain. He said that out of context they would make us look | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
terrible. You must have been aware of what they showed in order for | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
you to believe that the effect would be devastating. He is not a | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
pretty sight. When you are using these techniques. And the screaming | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
and vomiting? I do not know about swimming and vomiting. But it is | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
not a pretty sight. But you said that if they were viewed in the | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
public it would look terrible. course they said that. If you are | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
waterboarding somebody and they are naked, of course. That was a | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
concern of mine. Defence lawyers will raise these issues at the | :18:53. | :19:01. | |
trial before the military tribunal at Guantanamo. But the defence may | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
not get a very fine forcing disclosure of the evidence. | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
rules of the conditions are set up to commit the Government to hide | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
the evidence of the torture to which the defendants were subjected. | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
The air is a great deal of -- there is a great deal of scepticism from | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
:19:34. | :19:37. | ||
the lawyers about the fairness of these. Why should you care. I think | :19:37. | :19:45. | |
he's care because you want to say that you are different. -- you care. | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
Your country acts under a legal and moral compass. And when you let it | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
go, it goes. The trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, whose plot for | :19:57. | :20:07. | |
:20:07. | :20:07. | ||
down the Twin Towers, may last for years. Do you regret anything you | :20:07. | :20:15. | |
did for authorised? I do not regret anything. I was honoured to surf | :20:15. | :20:24. | |
country. -- so if my country. I am proud of the decisions that I took. | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
Including the destruction of the tapes to protect the people who | :20:28. | :20:38. | |
:20:38. | :20:39. | ||
worked for me. However long the trial lasts, there will be a | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
verdict at the end. It Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his co-accused | :20:42. | :20:50. | |
are found guilty, they will face the death penalty. In the US, | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
someone who has killed 3,000 people would probably have to pay with his | :20:54. | :21:04. | |
:21:04. | :21:06. | ||
wife. In his case, I would want him to rot in jail. To test his | :21:06. | :21:14. | |
religious beliefs by spending about 40 years in a prison in Guantanamo. | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
He wind which are not want to see him executed? I do not want him to | :21:20. | :21:29. | |
be the martyr he wants to be. trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed | :21:29. | :21:38. |