What Cost a Spare Room in Wales? Week In Week Out

We're not sat on our arses, expecting people to give us money.

Well, you obviously...you do want some. But you want it...

You want me to give it to you in the form of housing benefit.

'It's hitting harder in Wales than anywhere else in the UK.'

I think it's cruel that you've got to move out your family home

because of this bedroom tax.

'There are tenants who could be evicted.'

By 12.15pm tomorrow, I'll know if I'm going to be homeless or not.

'We go door-knocking with housing officers in one Welsh town.'

Do you feel sometimes like you're a bedroom tax collector?

At the end of the day, I'm to get the full money off them.

'One size doesn't fit all...'

Before you start on with this bedroom tax,

I think you ought to start building some properties first.

'..and some home truths.'

You're not going to like what I have to say to you.

HE KNOCKS ON DOOR

If you're not willing to pay that

until we can get something sorted for you,

it's going to be entered into court on Friday.

KNOCK ON DOOR

It's the knock on the door that many are dreading.

If you didn't pay it this week,

you'd be looking to apply for a warrant for eviction.

Under our system, you're flagged as being underoccupying.

Do everything to get those arrears down now,

to prevent any further action.

When rent officer Ryan Dorian comes calling,

it's often the last chance for tenants

who are well behind with payments.

Sometimes the bedroom tax or arrears

force people to bury their head in the sand and think they'll go away.

And the next thing, there could be a bailiff at the door.

One quarter of tenants here in Blaenavon

have been or are in arrears,

and many are struggling since the law changed.

Housing benefit has been cut

for bedrooms that are now classified as spare.

Ryan has the job of recovering the shortfall or recommending eviction.

So tenants like Natalie Powell have a problem.

£62.24 a week.

How much do you get?

£71.40 a week.

It makes it impossible.

Natalie can't meet all her debt repayments.

She's run up £1,100 in arrears since the new law was introduced.

She's pregnant, on income support,

and she's due in court in the morning.

I think now they will be going for eviction,

because of the downfall for the bedroom tax.

Because they will work out that I can't afford it,

so they'll just be looking to take the house tomorrow.

By 12.15 tomorrow, I'll know if I'm going to be homeless or not.

The number of applications to the court for evictions in Blaenavon

has more than doubled since April.

Behind closed doors in this town and many like it across Wales,

people are afraid of losing their homes.

This is where I grew up, I suppose.

A lot of my friends lived in these little houses,

and I used to knock on the door and we used to go out

and play with the chickens and...

it holds a lot of memories for me.

Gail Harris's family have lived here for generations,

and she's rented the same three-bedroom house for 25 years.

It's where my roots are and just where I feel comfortable.

She brought up her children here, but they've since left home

and now she lives here on her own.

When I was in full-time work, I was paying my rent regular, every month.

Never in arrears.

And then suddenly, I was out of work, looking for a job.

I had to go on Jobseeker's,

and having to claim the benefits,

for example, housing benefit.

Then all of a sudden, this bedroom tax come in.

So all my arrears have just been sky-high.

Gail has lost housing benefit,

because the law says she has two bedrooms more than she needs.

She's now £400 in arrears.

You've never been in debt?

I've never been in debt.

No, never been in debt.

It's always frightened me to death.

It's just the constant worry.

In the past, housing benefit could be claimed

by people like Gail and Natalie to pay their rent,

even if some of their bedrooms weren't being used all the time.

But the UK government says that's unfair,

and it's stopped what it calls the spare room subsidy.

In Wales, it says that will save £25 million a year.

But is a policy like that right for communities like this?

All right, do you want a biscuit, then, before bed? Yeah!

I need the rooms, but if they're not paying housing benefit,

I'm a bit stuffed.

Torfaen Council is no longer paying the rent

for two of Natalie's three bedrooms

because, under the new rules, they're considered to be spare.

She's been left with big debts and more worry.

Snuggle down, now. Kyla's teddy! Kiss.

Night, Jack.

Natalie's children don't live with her,

but she wants to keep the extra rooms so they can visit.

Losing her home could make that relationship more difficult.

She has an eviction hearing tomorrow.

I just really don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

I could be packing up my house tomorrow,

because I might have to be out of here.

Because of the bedroom tax,

it's making it impossible for me to stay here

because I can't afford it,

but I really need to be in this house and I need the rooms.

So...

..tomorrow's going to be quite a stressful day.

Under the change in the law,

full housing benefit can only be claimed

for one family home instead of two when parents are separated.

Natalie's children live with her mother, Molly.

This is how we survive.

Molly thinks Natalie should be allowed to keep her spare rooms too.

It's very important.

They still need to have their bond with their mother,

and I'm absolutely adamant I'm going to keep it.

But does the state have to provide three rooms in two houses

in order for that to happen?

They're going to have to.

Where are we going to sleep the children?

This is the day that Natalie has feared.

On her way to court, she's facing the possibility

of losing her home altogether, and Molly is worried too.

If it goes the wrong way today,

she is my daughter, after all is said and done,

and I'm going to be absolutely devastated for her.

The children can't really sleep on floors.

They should never have brought this bedroom tax in.

A lot of these three-bed houses, people have lived in for a long time,

and then when their families have moved out and moved on,

then obviously, they're left there on their own,

but this is the area they've known and always lived in.

So, you know, some of these are underoccupying. Right, OK.

These housing officers see the wider problem.

Claire Dullea is showing Tom Fullick which homes have been affected.

Tenants in arrears will need financial help,

or are moved to smaller properties

where they won't have to pay the charge.

And then we've got these one-beds, where they're one-up and one-down,

and they're really desirable.

Lots of people have been in those a long time,

and they don't become available very often. Right.

In Blaenavon, only two one-bedroom flats have become available

since the new law came in,

and there were twice as many applicants as there were last year.

We know people want to move,

we've got people in our priority band,

waiting to move to one-bedrooms,

but we haven't got hardly any one-bedrooms

in the north of the borough.

Isn't it better to put people in the accommodation that suits them?

It is, and I can see why the legislation has come into place.

The only thing I would say is that, if we haven't got those one-bedrooms

available for people to be able to move into,

then it's not going to happen,

and those people left in the three-bedroom houses,

paying the bedroom tax, are really, really struggling.

I've always been wary about putting the gas and electric on,

but now, it's going to affect me this winter.

I mean, this bedroom tax come in, what? April?

But this winter, it is going to affect me,

because I won't be able to afford to put the heating on.

I buy hardly any food.

I think twice about what I'm buying, and try and make it last.

With two empty bedrooms, Gail has to find £21 a week.

You're just thinking about every penny to try and manage.

Your income is just...

it seems to be going down and down and down.

There's no one-bedroom flats.

Only down below, so some people in Blaenavon are having to move

down into Cwmbran or Pontnewydd, or...there's a few in Pontypool.

And it's just...

People are having to move into places they don't want to go.

I'd be really isolated and cut off from the family.

I've got a few friends down the Valleys,

but, er, I would be cut off from the family.

Which I enjoy having a cup of coffee with my sisters, and having a chat.

Put those tea bags on the side, because I'm going to dry them out.

THEY CHUCKLE I'll use them again.

'And if I moved out of Blaenavon, I wouldn't get that.

'I wouldn't get that at all.'

You'd just lose it all.

Across Wales, nearly half of all social housing claimants

are losing benefit.

The UK government says they have a choice - pay the extra rent,

or move to a smaller property.

Amy and Lloyd couldn't find a one-bedroom flat in their home town.

You lose your friends.

But you'll never lose your family.

So, if I lost my friends...

my family is still in Blaenavon.

It only takes one phone call.

Amy suffers from epilepsy.

If Amy doesn't feel well, and I've got to go to work,

somebody can come and look after her.

So, if we had to move to somewhere further,

I couldn't go anywhere, because if Amy has a seizure

and she's on her own, I don't know what could happen.

Housing officer Claire helped them get the flat.

It's a two-bed, and it was all that was available,

but the cost is pushing them to the limit.

Hello.

Like I said, you've done really well so far.

I just hope that it'll be a long-term...

that you can get the jobs,

and you'll be able to... paying for the bedroom tax,

then, shouldn't be such an issue.

There's people out there,

which I believe it's probably going to be me soon,

going to be struggling.

We're there to help, but should you not pay the rent,

it's important you realise that you could be evicted.

And that's the last thing we want.

You've got so much stuff, considering you moved in with nothing.

A third of all two and three-bed homes in Blaenavon have

had their housing benefit cut.

The average debt is £360.

Natalie has much bigger debts than that.

The court has ruled, and she's narrowly escaped

being evicted from her three-bedroom house.

But only after her mother, Molly,

agreed to pay the shortfall in her rent and arrears.

If it wasn't for my mum, I'd now be going to present myself as homeless.

My mum's just had to offer to pay the downfall of £47 every week.

Otherwise, I would have been evicted.

It would have been an order for eviction today,

and I would have had to go and present as homeless.

And now I've got to wait for Bron Afon to try and help me

to downsize to a two-bedroom property.

Well, we're just going to have to tighten our belts.

The kids won't have quite so many niceties.

Natalie has agreed to work with

the housing association to find a solution.

They'll try to help her move to a smaller home or find savings

so she can pay her rent.

Tom is the housing officer who will advise her.

People who are in really difficult situations,

it's pretty common to have the discussion with them.

They need to cut certain things out of their income

and expenditure to be able to afford the rent.

How do you do? My name's Tom. Yeah, come on in. Thanks.

Expecting me today, then. Yes.

Do you know roughly how much you would smoke?

Depends how stressed I am! Right.

Um...I don't know, about £10 a week.

Do you think, about £10 a week? Yeah. OK.

People always live to their means.

If they've got £100 a week or £1,000 a week,

they'll always spend pretty much up to the end of that,

and they'll live their life the way their income allows them.

And obviously, when it gets cut, they have to make cutbacks.

It's part of losing money.

What would you see as an unnecessary expenditure,

that you give people advice about cutting back on?

Smoking is one of the big ones.

We get quite a lot of people who say they drink on a regular basis,

so that's another one to cut back on.

And then clothing -

clothing's a really difficult one to put a number on.

When you make applications,

usually what we recommend is about £3 per week per person in the household.

How much was your top this week?

Which one? The new one you bought.

I got two. Oh, right.

And how much were they? They were on sale.

And then this last bit is other expenses,

so anything you can think of that we might have missed in this list.

No Sky or anything like that? No.

Anything you can think of at all?

Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much.

If you have any problems, get in touch. OK, thank you.

At least we'll be able to help her to downsize.

As soon as she finds something suitable,

then we'll be all for the support to help her deal with downsizing.

She's still in the situation where she hasn't got enough money

coming in for the money to go out.

Half a mile away, Clare is also trying to help Gail.

You're not on any benefits.

And how much do you earn on a weekly basis, if you don't mind me asking?

On average, like, 20-25 hours.

One suggestion is to take in a lodger.

The thought of some... a stranger, then...

All right, you've got to vet them first,

you've got to feel comfortable with it,

but the thought of a stranger living in my house...

Your privacy's gone.

Well, everything's gone, really, isn't it?

Gail's applying for a discretionary housing payment.

It's a temporary benefit that might cover the shortfall in her rent.

Claire also sets up an appointment with a money adviser.

They make sure that you've got all the benefits

that you're entitled to, and try and help it be as easy as possible.

That sounds promising,

because up until now, I've just felt totally on my own with it all.

There's been a big increase in applications

for discretionary housing payments since April.

Torfaen Council has spent one and a half times as much

in the first six months of this year as in the whole of last year.

It makes me really annoyed and frustrated,

because I really want to help her.

It's obvious that, you know, she needs help.

Things are going downhill drastically for her in so many ways.

The government have brought in the charges

without really thinking about the options for people.

We can't promise her that it will only be a week or fortnight or month,

because we don't really know how long it will take

before a suitable property comes in.

The UK government believes that privately owned flats

will help to meet demand when the full effect of the new law kicks in.

But in Blaenavon not all landlords will accept tenants on benefits.

They won't, they won't, they won't. They will.

That one made a decision to go with someone on private.

So, out of those properties, nine,

we've only got three who will consider people on benefits.

Two thirds of them wouldn't... Two thirds.

How worried are the landlords that you represent about people

who've been, if you like,

forced out of large housing association properties,

three-bedroom houses and so on,

who are now trying to seek out one-bedroom flats,

and yet might be bringing with them a lot of debt?

That is a major concern for a lot of our landlords.

we have, in the last couple of months,

had to say no to two families. Yeah.

Have you seen people distressed?

Yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, terrible.

People crying... Crying in the office, and it's been upsetting,

it's been really, really horrendous.

Our tenants are looking for somewhere smaller to live,

but where can they go?

Amy and Lloyd are in a two-bed.

Paying for the empty room is a struggle.

We are not going to get into arrears.

To make sure we didn't go in arrears,

we've cut down on loads of things, haven't we?

Like, we had Sky and internet, internet -

we don't have that any more.

Basically, in order to put the rent first, you've had to...

Cut down loads. Cut on the luxuries.

Pretty much. Um... That's the right way round, isn't it?

Well...

To keep a roof over our heads and not be in the rain -

it's better than nothing, isn't it?

They get just £60 a week between them from a training scheme.

How long was that on for?

Using the fire provokes a rush to the electricity meter.

So, how much has that taken off you?

Um... We had £4.82.

We had £4.82, and now we've got £3.92, so it took...

£1.10 off us.

See, this is why we can't have it on -

because every penny on our electric counts.

Say we go and get £10 electric,

that should last us a good couple of weeks.

There are 90,000 people on housing waiting lists in Wales.

In the past, housing associations have offered couples

like Amy and Lloyd larger flats

in the expectation that they'll have families.

But Bron Afon say, with the changes to housing benefit,

couples aren't prepared to risk going into arrears,

and properties are actually staying empty for longer as a result.

Morning, Tim.

The UK government wants to cut the huge housing benefit bill,

and encourage people to work.

David Davies is a prominent supporter.

I entirely support the government's approach

of bringing about these changes.

Partly because...

There's an issue about fairness with people who are already working

and unable to get those benefits and partly because

we're desperately short of money as a country

and we simply can't afford the level of benefits that have been in place.

'He's coming with us to talk to the tenants face to face.'

What are you anticipating?

I assume people won't be very happy.

That's certainly to be expected,

but I hope I can reassure people why these changes are being made.

'First, we take him to meet Amy and Lloyd

'at her grandfather's house.'

You won't like what I have to say to you.

But the Government have brought this in

because we have a terrible financial situation

at the moment, absolutely unbelievable.

And the days when we were able

to fund people in your situation have gone.

Lloyd, you look obviously fairly fit and capable.

If I were you, I wouldn't spend too much longer training

on 30 quid a week, I'd be out there looking for work.

You're not particularly tied to Blaenavon.

Amy is, I accept that.

But why not go to London? Why stay here if you can't find work here?

Just finding the money. I need a job to get the money to go to London

and find a place in London.

For you to say, "Get a job", it's easier said than done.

First of all, if I was in your situation, I think

I'd move back home and wait until...save the money.

Put yourself in my and Lloyd's position, right?

I would love for you to go down to that Jobcentre,

ask 'em for all the help they can give you

and they'll just say "training".

There was nothing on the boards because you are 17, you can't drive

because you haven't got the money to drive.

It's the end of the subject, closed.

That is the fact of the matter.

It probably is. Yeah, it is. It's easy for you to say it.

That's how I would approach it.

"Where did your money come from? Where's this, where's that?"

What I wouldn't do is sit around and wait for Mr Davies

to solve my problem, or anyone else, Tory, Labour or Liberal.

People like me can't solve your problems.

You're 17. You're a young man.

You can't solve their problems, but you help create the problems.

Thank you very much(!)

If I knew there was a job available for me today,

believe me, I'd be there.

We're not sat on our arses, expecting people to give us money.

I'm not expecting for you to give however much tax

you pay for your money to come to me, because I don't want it.

Well, you obviously do want some.

But you want me to give it to you in the form of housing benefit.

David Davies is chairing a House of Commons enquiry

into the bedroom tax in Wales.

Hello.

He's going to meet Molly at Natalie's three-bedroomed house.

Natalie isn't here

because she's in hospital, having her baby.

I have to throw this back to you

and I'd love to say it to your daughter to her face,

but only in that I want to put to her what other people say -

is it wise to have four children

if there isn't a father around to pick up the bill for it?

Well, yeah, there is that point.

But even though we live separately,

I still want her to see these children regularly. Mm-hm.

I still want her to keep it as a family unit

and I still want,

wherever they're living - whether they're with me

or with their mum -

they need a roof over their head.

My argument, really, is, for anybody downgrading,

there is just not the property out there

for them to move into.

I definitely can see this being more of a problem in rural areas

and parts of Wales like this than maybe in the cities.

It's something we have to keep a very careful eye on.

Nobody wants people to lose out,

nobody will want anyone not to have a roof over their head.

With three grandchildren to entertain

and another just born, what does Molly think

about what Mr Davies had to say?

I think he's living in cloud cuckoo land, to be honest.

He's saying he can't supply us with two or three-bedroomed houses.

Fair enough.

So we downgrade, but where do we downgrade to?

There is no properties around here.

There is no two-bedroomed houses,

there's no one-bedroomed flats.

And how long will we have to wait until these are built?

What would your message be to the Government?

I think before you start on with this bedroom tax,

I think you ought to start building some properties first.

See it through to the end instead of just coming so far

with this tax and thinking,

"Oh, well, flip! Where will we put them now?"

The Welsh Government is backing the construction

of new homes for social housing,

but the first won't be available until next year.

Gail is one of those who's been looking to downsize,

but she can't find anywhere, despite asking around the town.

We take David Davies to meet her.

I have a lot of sympathy for you, to be honest,

but there's no way in law you can discriminate

between people who, as you have, have worked all their life

and paid into the system and are now getting back a small amount

of what you've contributed, and somebody else who hasn't.

And that is a real problem.

As it stands, the housing association don't have any choice.

They're told their hands are tied

and, bluntly, they have to talk to people about eviction.

That is right.

If that's applied to Gail, that's your nightmare, isn't it? It is.

There's no way you'd be left without a roof over your head.

Can I ask you a question? Of course.

Don't you think the Government brought this bedroom tax in

and they weren't fully prepared for it, and people like myself

are willing to move out of that particular house,

but there's just not the houses to meet the need.

I think there has to be recognition,

and maybe ministers are reluctant to say this,

that when you change the law,

there will be unforeseen and unfortunate consequences.

In other words, there will be some people...

That's what's happened.

Yes. I think we should be upfront about that.

There are people who will lose out that don't deserve to lose out

and I think you may well fall into that category.

I'm really sorry for that.

That doesn't mean I think we can reverse the whole thing

or change it, because I think there's a bigger picture there.

'So, an apology, but he still backs the policy.'

We've seen for ourselves how the people of this community

have been affected by the changes in housing benefit,

with tenants often being pitted against housing officers.

So far, the majority of the 40,000 people

across Wales who've been affected by the introduction of the bedroom tax

are staying in their homes and paying the extra rent.

But winter is on its way and as fuel bills rise,

many of those people will find life getting harder.

KNOCK ON DOOR

So the Blaenavon housing team will keep on touring the estates,

offering help and chasing arrears.

There are genuine cases

where they make a decision and put gas in or pay the bedroom tax

or put food on the table or pay the bedroom tax.

I don't agree with that in this day and age.

People on Jobseeker's Allowance

or Employment Seeker's Allowance genuinely can't afford it.

Not that they don't want to, they just can't.

The money just isn't there.

'Amy and Lloyd are determined to make a go of their new independent life together,

'whatever David Davies says.'

What sort of things do you eat?

Anything that's on offer.

Anything what's on offer, really.

Two for £1.

As they count the pennies, they're bracing themselves

for their first winter in their flat.

We'll have a bit of a cold Christmas, won't we?

Food.

Cos the snow was bad last year, we need to get out.

But you're not going back to your mum's

and you're not going to London?

No.

Why should we?

Natalie has had her new baby

and has managed to avoid eviction, this time.

Gail is still on the hunt for a new home

and worrying about her future.

There's nothing available at the moment, and I just feel I'm trapped.

I think it's cruel. I think it's really cruel

that you've got to move out of your family home.

because of this bedroom tax.

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