Parents Who Catch Paedophiles Week In Week Out

This man has just been convicted of sexual grooming online

He wasn't caught by police, but by a growing number

Tonight we follow a new undercover group ?

I can be on some chat sites for three minutes and I get 70 hits

But should they be fighting this crime?

They shouldn't be undertaking that activity

Don't be silly, you are absolutely surrounded in that corner now.

And we meet a predator's family ? moved for their own

That's the actual stone we had at the window this morning.

I'm here to meet Christopher Lane, 24 years old, in south Wales.

He's been grooming 13- and 14-year-old children

This isn't a police offer, it's a paedophile hunter.

His target is a young father in the Gwent valleys who has no idea

My name is Rob Hunter from a paedo-hunting

The hunter is filming everything to use as evidence.

I've all the evidence here off one decoy.

Sending pictures of your penis to kids, it's disgusting, you thought

Christopher Lane thought he was sending

the messages to schoolgirls, in fact it was the hunters.

His family and fiance had no idea what he'd been doing.

Or that the sting would be broadcast to thousands of hunter fans online.

I don't want to do this to you honestly, I'm not

here to wreck lives, but he's a paedophile

Stings like this are happening more and more often.

I do this all the time - this is the third sting I've

I don't get paid by the police or anything.

I pose as a 13-year-old guy online to catch

Hunters are untrained and unregulated.

They say they do this not just to catch predators,

Lane is one of ten men caught in Wales so far this

This sting led to a 92 year old from Abetrillery

Ivor Gifford, do you wanna come and sit down?

All you've done for a month to two children is talk

Hunters told us they don't believe the police have the time

or the resources to deal with the threat of online grooming.

Around a dozen groups have sprung up around Britain in the last two years

helping to convict around 100 online predators.

A new undercover group, Petronus, has set up in South Wales.

They're uncovering new targets every day.

This mum from Newport is one of its decoys.

He lives in Leeds and is a bus driver and

She's speaking to dozens of suspected

OK, so he's just told me what he's having for tea, he's asked me

Now he's asking me for another picture of myself, so I'm

Oh, he's just sent me a picture of him in the shower.

It's the normal being friendly tactic then it

will get to the stage he will send a picture of his penis as well.

I don't have to put much concersation skills in to this,

to be honest, because this is their fantasy.

Since Jo and a small team of decoys began hunting in May,

they say eight men, including a teacher,

have been arrested ? three have already been convicted.

I started off because I was a victim of grooming

myself when I was 15 and I'd seen quite a lot of stings

People in my workplace don't know I do this,

I've got family and friends don't know I do this and I'd prefer it

that they didn't because people don't

It's a bit surreal really, I will be cooking tea, my phone

will ding and I have to talk to one of these men I got running

round, then I go back to cooking tea and it's kind

To catch online predators, the group creates fake profiles

with backstories and photos before entering adult chat rooms

I can be on some chat sites for three minutes and I got 70 hits

This is the man who set up and leads Petronus.

He's also asked is not to identify him.

I'm an ex-police officer and a survivor

For a number of years I've been round hunting groups, helped

I've also done my own decoy work anonymously.

My aim is to make it much, much harder

for these men to feel comfortable on the internet

Petronus caught this man - Alan Mullen, a 67-year-old architect

He's arriving at court to be sentenced after he admitted sexual

grooming online and attempting to meet a child.

He was effectively into two of our decoys - he thought

The group - which doesn't broadcast its stings live ? recorded

hundreds of pages of chat between them and Mullen.

He rang one of the decoys who was posing as a child

during what Mullen thought was her school lunch break.

It's nice to hear your voice at last.

No, I'm having it in a minute with my friends.

He professed to be this father figure, it was classic grooming,

but underlying all that was this horrible sexual deviancy.

On the day he thought he'd be meeting

the girl in a Newport park, Petronus were waiting.

You were going to meet Sam today, weren't you?

It was a bit more than that, wasn't it?

You may say it wasn't more than that on this occasion.

In here is the evidence of what you intended to do

The police are quickly on the scene to arrest Mullen.

Hunters say many of those caught in stings might still be

grooming children online if they hadn't stopped them.

And they are not alone in thinking that.

At this moment in time, there are far too few police officers

and they are far too few officers to be dealing with child

Jim Gamble used to head CEOP the child exploitation

I think it's fair to say it's a tsunami, it's almost

There could be over 100,000 people at any given moment in time in UK

downloading indecent images of children.

I refuse to believe that the interest is not played out

in other aspects of their lives, including the potential

Are they more confident now that they perhaps won't get

Of course they would because they don't see the resources

being invested, they don't see self-minded predators being arrested

and brought before the courts day in day out, so when they go online

it's a lottery as to whether they get caught

and they have to be extremely unlucky to be caught.

In some instances, we do need to turn the tables.

Mullen was prosecuted because of Petronus.

The court heard how he'd been at a low point ? lonely

and was physically incapable of sexual intercourse.

He was given a 14-month jail sentence, suspended for two years.

And he'll be on the sex offenders register for ten.

Ashamed and deeply regret the situation.

How do you feel about the hunter group?

You are now a registered sex offender how do you feel about that?

Is this something you are going to be doing again in the future?

This hunter group says it can't keep up with the sheer numbers

of predators attempting to groom their online decoys.

I've got another 14 people who are actively talking to me.

And I have another a 91 people lined up now.

They've all shown interest in my decoy.

The most upsetting thing for me is the ones we are not

I'm almost certain if they are talking to a decoy then

they are talking to a live child and that keeps me up at night.

Why not hand it over to the police at that point?

You have got the evidence, give it to the police, they can go pick

No doubt at all, no doubt at all, they just don't have the time

in order for them to do any sort of proactive work they are far

too busy reacting to cases at the moment.

The police insist they will always respond to concerns

And they warn that, however well meaning,

hunters could compromise investigations and should

Jonanthan Drake is the lead officer in Operation Netsafe, which combats

child-sexual exploitation across Wales.

They shouldn't be undertaking that activity in the first place,

Under-cover policing of that nature should not be for members

How else are we going to catch these people?

There's men in jail so far this year in Wales, several

of them as a result of this type of intelligence.

We've invested significantly in dedicating resourcing to tackle

We work with law enforcement agencies globally, we work

with National Crime Agency, use cutting-edge technology as well

to root out offending in all its forms, including CSE,

and we'll continue to do that until we're sure

Police told us 179 people were arrested in the first nine

months of Operation Netsafe and that has safeguarded

It's not clear how many of the cases involved catching people

Hunter groups say whatever is being done, it's not enough

and, what's more, there's public support for them.

Another new group has been set up, this time in Cwmbran by former

prison officer Nicholas Young, who was inspired after watching

It was all about the passion and it made me think

this is important to this person, it's important

to a community - that's what made me think I have got to do this.

The incredible sense of community spirit was overpowering.

I had 318 men offer to help when I first started

I had 30-50 women offer to help, it was immense ? offering financial

help, sim cards, mobile phones, anything they could do to help.

One of them is this grandfather from Cardiff.

By day he works in construction, by night he poses

He's briefing Nicholas on his latest investigation.

What time did you stop doing this last night?

I was online until three or four o'clock and he did ask why I was up

so late and I said my mum was sleeping and I was using

He was asking me to watch porn and he was asking me to do things

I said I can't watch that because my mum will know I've

But he kept telling me what to do - go incognito and then you can

So he even told you how to by pass your parents?

Like other hunters, he says it's all too easy to find men

This fake 15 year old is about to enter an adult chat room

There's three people speaking to me in less than three minutes.

Or if he says, sorry, you are too young.

Within six sentences and he's asking me that.

He's asking how small my breasts are.

I'm glad it's me he's talking to and not a 15-year-old girl.

The Home Office says it's given the National Crime Agency an extra

?10 million to nearly double its capacity to investigate

Another ?20 million is earmarked for the next three years.

But According to Jim Gamble, it's still not enough.

As we sit here today, I doubt there are more than 30

officers across the UK who are actually online,

at this very moment in time masquerading undercover to engage

that low hanging fruit which is out there looking for the "Jessica 13"

From talking to police officers round the UK from the role

I have in safeguarding, the role that I'm

They simply haven't got the resource to meet this head-on

or to even create an active and meaningful deterrent.

The National Police Chiefs Council insists there are more than 30

but they wouldn't tell us how many more.

I'm not going to give you details around the police

tactics that are used, but what I can say is that we use

a mixture of all different types of tactics, both

technical solutions and we work importantly with law enforcement

Just roughly, though, are we talking dozens,

hundreds in Wales of officers working to try to protect children?

Specifically around online policing, if you like,

and undercover policing, I'm not prepared to give

The internet was used in more than 1,500 child sexual offences

Police are catching predators, but unlike hunters, they don't

Police arrested Christopher Lane and he was remanded in custody

after a hunter's sting at his home near Blackwood.

A few days later, we visited and discovered it was his parents

That's the stone we had at the window this morning ? we had

That's one of the reasons I'm too scared to go out.

Because I don't know what is going to happen to me.

The man had no right to actually video it off his phone

Lane's mother, Ann, who is disabled by cancer and is bedridden,

We had stones lobbed at the back window, bits of breezeblocks,

Two blokes come around and said to him, they knocked the door...

And that's when they said, you'll need to watch your back.

Nonces, paedophiles, stuff like that, then the first

I've been told anyone shouting abuse, I've been

told I got to log it, what they say, time it,

Of them trying to set the house on fire, because I can't move.

Like he said, it makes us feel like prisoners

Lane's ex-fiancee Jessica immediately ended their relationship

and moved out with their baby daughter.

Every page I looked through, I was getting sicker by the minute,

my stomach was turning and the fact he was doing it while being with me

The long-term consequences that he's not gonna deal with is the fact that

when our daughter gets older and she finds out about this

I will have to deal with all the questions she's gonna give me,

He didn't love her enough to be able to stop them friggin' urges

that he had to go talk to underage children who are just

The Lanes can make no sense of what their son did or what's

I just don't know what went wrong with him.

A mother should protect their children.

I just don't want to know him as a son.

Jessica says their ordeal has been made worse by the hunter

featuring her and Lane's father in the sting.

He didn't even say he was gonna do it.

No-one should have put the videos on that quick

Me or his family didn't have a clue what was going on.

Think about the family and the aftermath,

They have been basically bullied because of it all.

I'm meeting Jeff Cuthbert, Gwent's Police and Crime Commissioner.

Hunters have done more stings in his patch than in any

I understand in this and many other aspects of crime or antisocial

behaviour that there is often an impatience and I can

understand that when people want to get on with things.

There are now several dangerous individuals in jail because of these

Yeah, and that's good when the evidence is presented to us

We can get a conviction, it is great, I suppose, in one sense.

What we don't know, of course, is how many potential perpetrators

have got away with it because it's not been

done properly or walked away

cos it's not stood up in court, so it is an issue of balance.

Petronus is investigating a new case - a man who says he wants

to meet their decoy, who he thinks is 14.

He's sent explicit pictures, videos of himself masturbating.

He's arranged to come and meet the decoy.

That's someone who is potentially very dangerous who's out there.

The police could knock on his door sooner.

The police as you know are quite stretched at the moment,

to go and get that gentleman it'll take a lot more time

The police insist that hunter groups are wrong to take risks like this.

At Cardiff Crown Court, Christopher Lane is

His parents have no sympathy for him.

He'll just have to learn his lesson the hard way.

He should have realised in what he was doing.

Lane was jailed for two years and eight months and is now

He made his bed, he's got to lie in it.

But they are now suffering on the outside.

A day after we filmed Michael and Ann, police and the council

moved them to a secret address for their own safety.

This is what's happened to the house they called home for 26 years.

I get what paedophile hunters do, but there's families who have

It could put his mam in an early grave.

I wanted to take my own life because I couldn't take the stress.

If I didn't have my daughter, I wouldn't have anything to live

for cos of what he's done to me ? he's really destroyed

If he's a paedophile, I don't sympathise with him at all.

But the fact is there's processes in place for a reason.

When you carry out an investigation, people are innocent

Streaming it live is about sensation.

Streaming it live is largely about self promotion, in my opinion.

Live streaming before someone's been through the process,

The man who confronted Lane is Rob Hunter.

He's repeatedly refused to talk to us about the sting

It's Paul Heaney here from BBC Wales.

I'm recording this call for our programme.

I'm going to try him one more time...

I'm not sure if we were cut off then.

I'd like to talk to you about the effect you have

Listen to me, I told you and colleague if you continue

to contact me, I'm going to the police for harassment.

We'd be happy to speak to the police, Mr Minto.

Why didn't you call the police instead of filming a family,

They had to leave the home they've lived in for over 20 years cos

We went out to do what we set out to do.

We have exposed a paedophile, you are not happy with it,

they are not happy with it, they have moved for

their own accord, that's nothing to do with me.

The problem is, Mr Minto, you filmed his family as well.

They didn't have anything to do with it.

His family decided to come into the video, mate.

Why are you happy to film other people, Mr Minto,

but you are not happy to speak to us?

He clearly doesn't want to answer any more questions about what he's

been doing or how he's been doing it.

It's because of the unintended harm that some hunters can cause that

Jim Gamble wants police to recruit and train an army

I'd like to see the Government engage in a sensible

conversation about how we can educate and empower ordinary

citizens across the UK by giving them the opportunity

to sign up to a special digital detectives programme.

And we could bring in volunteers into police stations

across the country and we turn the tables on the predator.

This is a tactic that's going to be low cost,

engage local communities in doing what most of us want,

The Policing Minister Nick Hurd declined to be interviewed but says

people should allow the police and law enforcement agencies

to do their vital work by not taking the law into their own hands.

The Home Office wouldn't comment on Jim Gamble's idea.

Petronus say they would welcome regulation for hunter groups.

If it's becoming public knowledge there's a whole army of paedophile

hunters out there fully trained and regulated they are to stop

This is probably the worst, most serious offence he has committed.

Tonight, Will and Jo are about to sting the man

who wants to meet the decoy at Newport train station.

He's basically communicating with one 14-year-old

girl and getting her to speak to her friend and persuading

the girl into a sexual liaison with him and the first girl.

They say he's on a two-hour journey from his home

because he thinks the girls will be home alone tonight.

He's sent instructions to both children on how do

She says the man's been texting her from the train.

He sent me to bed at one point in preparation for tonight cos he's

planning an all-nighter with me and my friend.

They don't know anything about the target's background,

whether he's violent, or whether they'll be

So why not call in Gwent Police sooner?

I just don't think if we put this file to them midweek

that they would have done this as quickly cos of resource issues.

If they don't respond immediately and we stop the conversation,

He will go back into chat rooms looking for real children.

I take responsibility for that ? I will not hand

The train arrives and they spot the target.

You are absolutely surrounded - in that corner now.

I'm outside Newport train station on Queensway on the pavement.

The suspect is shown the graphic chat log.

This girl, she told you she was 14 years of age who you are coming here

to meet, who you are coming here to have sex with.

OK, that's wonderful, thanks then goodbye.

You didn't come here for a fantasy, did you, you didn't come

Do you realise how serious the situation is?

We are done ? the rest of it is interview in the police station.

The man was charged with online grooming offences

He's the eighth man in Gwent alone to be arrested because of hunters

The National Police Chiefs Council may not want hunters to continue

doing this but the Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent

says it's time senior officers and hunters got around the table.

I am very prepared to raise these matters now and it's growing public

To look at the operational on both occasions with the Chief Constable.

Bringing them in as a special constable or volunteer and giving

them training ? a potentially good idea, then, you think?

Yes, of course there are training implications.

It would have to be done in a planned way,

but I think in terms of the principle it's

Next week, hunter groups will be discussed at the All Wales meeting

Nicholas Young and his decoys have given South Wales Police a file

Let's get the whole scenario to work for everybody.

The Lanes are still living at a secret address

while they search for a new home and a fresh start, away

Jessica has a warning for predators like her ex-fiance.

Don't wreck your life cos you want a bit of fun here and there.

You are going to wreck your family's life, lose everything.

There is no point in it, there really isn't.

And Petronus say it's currently looking at 100 suspects and has

I will show them up for what they are ? they are monsters,

This group says it won't stop hunting because it knows