Browse content similar to The Future State of Welfare with John Humphrys. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Seventy years ago, | 0:00:04 | 0:00:05 | |
a document of monumental importance sparked a social revolution. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:08 | |
It gave birth to the welfare state | 0:00:08 | 0:00:11 | |
and to what has become a massive benefits bill. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
That bill's gone up in the last ten years by nearly £60 billion. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:18 | |
Its critics say the welfare state is in crisis. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:23 | |
Two and a half million people who are on incapacity benefits | 0:00:23 | 0:00:27 | |
in the whole of the UK? | 0:00:27 | 0:00:30 | |
Unbelievable. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:32 | |
The politicians promise, or threaten, that change is coming. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
Today we launched the most ambitious, fundamental | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
and radical changes to the welfare system since it began. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:43 | |
For radical reforms read big savings. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
billions of pounds will have to be cut, | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
millions of people will be affected. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:52 | |
For this programme I've been talking to the people with the most to lose. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:59 | |
Some people haven't worked in their life, they don't know what a job is. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:02 | |
Would you work for the minimum wage? | 0:01:02 | 0:01:04 | |
No, I wouldn't. I'd be working for nothing. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
People on incapacity benefit. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:09 | |
You're just there for them to be able to tick a box. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
The long-term unemployed. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:18 | |
I don't want to be going out to work for 40 hours and missing my kids. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:22 | |
People on housing benefit. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
Lone parents. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:27 | |
Are they prepared for the harsher future ahead? | 0:01:27 | 0:01:31 | |
I can't get a job so I'm sitting in the house depressed. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:35 | |
You don't realise the impact having a child in your life does to you. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
I want to find out if Britain really is ready | 0:01:41 | 0:01:44 | |
for the future state of welfare. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:46 | |
Here's one way the benefit system has changed in my lifetime. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:02 | |
This is where I was brought up, Splott in Cardiff. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
Poor, working class district. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
Respectable poor, I suppose you'd say. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
This, incidentally, is the house where I was born, | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
and in those days, a long time ago of course, in those days, | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
everybody, if they could, was expected to work. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
And they did, we knew only one family | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
where the father did not work, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:29 | |
never had a job, and he was regarded as a pariah. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
It was a mark of shame. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:34 | |
Like most other kids we were expected to help out. | 0:02:36 | 0:02:38 | |
When my father had no work he sent me around streets | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
posting leaflets through people's doors. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
It wasn't unusual. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
Today one in four of the working age people in this area | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
is on some form of benefit. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
Hello. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
My sister was Mrs Neet who lived next door to you. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
Ah, well, yes, I remember her, of course! | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
I think I'm the only one left here now. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:03 | |
Will you remember I wonder... | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
There was a chap who lived in that house over there, | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
-and he never worked. -That's right. | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
But the fact that he didn't work, we used to think, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
my parents thought was shocking! | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
-Cos he never got a job. -That's right. -And that's changed hasn't it? | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
Oh, yes, definitely it's changed. | 0:03:21 | 0:03:23 | |
But do you think that pride in working has changed? | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
It's gone, yeah. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
If they can get money without working, they will. | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
I called on one family living just up the street where I was born, | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
who live on benefits. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
Pat Dale is a single mother of seven children. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:45 | |
She hasn't worked in 20 years. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
I spoke to her with one of her daughters, Chanel, | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
also a mother living on benefits. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:57 | |
And they say it doesn't pay them to work. | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
Some people haven't worked in their life. They don't know what a job is. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
None of your family have worked, have they? | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
And the reason why there's no jobs for us, | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
is because £5.50, minimum wage, | 0:04:09 | 0:04:11 | |
and this is what it is, that's why there's no job for us. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:15 | |
Would you work for the minimum wage? | 0:04:15 | 0:04:17 | |
No, I wouldn't, the reason why I wouldn't work for the minimum wage | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
is if I did right, get £5.50, that means I would lose | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
my rent benefits, do you know, I'd be working for nothing. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:29 | |
And what other benefits do you get? | 0:04:29 | 0:04:32 | |
Erm, child tax credit... All together... | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
Child tax credit and child benefit you get. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:37 | |
Yeah, first child £20, second child just £13. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
So, why's the first child 20 and him 13? | 0:04:41 | 0:04:46 | |
They're still both the same age, | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
one's 13, one's 14, so why? | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
What do you say to politicians | 0:04:53 | 0:04:55 | |
who say that the welfare state is too generous? | 0:04:55 | 0:05:00 | |
Give us a bit more, erm, chance. Do you know what I mean? | 0:05:00 | 0:05:04 | |
Would you work from eight till seven for £5 an hour? | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
I think it's disgusting. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
Honestly, it's really, really disgusting. | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
A lot of people will be shocked, appalled, | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
by what Pat Dale has to say. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
Shocked in the same way my parents were shocked by our neighbour | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
who never had a job. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:31 | |
But, obviously she sees herself as a victim. And maybe she's right? | 0:05:31 | 0:05:37 | |
A victim of the benefit system, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
the benefits culture that we have created over the decades. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:44 | |
How else can you explain | 0:05:49 | 0:05:52 | |
so many people in this neighbourhood out of work? | 0:05:52 | 0:05:55 | |
Splott is not like the Welsh Valleys a few miles away which were ravaged | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
when the mines disappeared. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
It's in the centre of the city of Cardiff. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
Are there really no jobs here, the capital city of Wales? | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
I went to the nearest job centre to try to find out. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
So let's see what's on offer today in Cardiff. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:18 | |
Cleaner, carers, meter reader, sales assistant, telesales agent, | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
kitchen porter and so on and so on and so on. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:27 | |
In fact, in September there were more than 1,600 jobs | 0:06:27 | 0:06:31 | |
advertised in Cardiff. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
There will always be jobs that are more appealing than others, | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
but what we try to do here is try to encourage people | 0:06:38 | 0:06:41 | |
to see the benefit in any of the jobs. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
And that even working at a fairly low paid level, | 0:06:44 | 0:06:46 | |
getting yourself back into work | 0:06:46 | 0:06:48 | |
is very beneficial for you and the family. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:50 | |
And it's often a stepping stone to something a lot better. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
Isn't the big difference now | 0:06:53 | 0:06:55 | |
that if you didn't have a job it was a matter of shame? | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
Has what used to be a stigma - a very, very clear stigma - gone? | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
-The stigma of not working. -The stigma of not working? | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
"He's on the dole - shock!" | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
There is undoubtedly less of a stigma, | 0:07:06 | 0:07:07 | |
I don't think anyone would argue with that. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
And let's face it, benefits became fairly easy to access... | 0:07:10 | 0:07:14 | |
Too easy. | 0:07:14 | 0:07:15 | |
In some cases, yes. People then found themselves on benefits | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
and didn't see themselves getting back into work. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
And that's a situation that's built up over the years. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
We're not here to force you to into full-time work, | 0:07:25 | 0:07:30 | |
whilst you're on employment support allowance. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
-Some positions are quite short-term, a week or two. -Absolutely. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
Owen Oakley is trying to get back to work after ten years of living on incapacity benefit. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:40 | |
To build your confidence, get you back into the routine of work. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
Do you mind if I just have a quick chat with you Owen? | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
Yeah, that's fine. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:49 | |
How do people react to you being out of work? Do you think they think, | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
"He's lazy, can't get out of bed in the morning". | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
Not in my experience because a lot of my friends know I'm hardworking. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
I've got friends that have been on benefits all their lives. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
Some of them are just used to living like that. | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
They want to go on and have made a career out of not having a career. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
I know families like that as well. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
Why do you think they do it then? | 0:08:11 | 0:08:13 | |
I don't know. I suppose it's an easy lifestyle for some | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
if you don't want to work. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:18 | |
All right, well, thanks for coming in today. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
There are now more than 800,000 people in this country | 0:08:23 | 0:08:28 | |
who have been out of work for more than a year. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
It's all a long way from the initial vision | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
on which the benefit system was founded. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
Sir William Beveridge working in the quiet of University College, | 0:08:36 | 0:08:40 | |
of which he is master, has produced a social document | 0:08:40 | 0:08:44 | |
of revolutionary importance. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
So this is it, The Beveridge Report, or to give it its proper title, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
Social Insurance and Allied Services. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
A pretty mundane title for a report that Beveridge himself | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
said would create a revolution, as indeed it did. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
You get an idea of the sense of priorities | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
from the hand-written notes | 0:09:01 | 0:09:02 | |
he made before the report came out. Here we are. | 0:09:02 | 0:09:05 | |
Social insurance - that's the important word - | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
is insurance against four contingencies | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
and at the top of the list was unemployment, | 0:09:10 | 0:09:12 | |
because of industrial accident, | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
disease, whatever, old age, maternity and death. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
He wanted a form of insurance. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
So you paid something in and the State gave you something in return. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:26 | |
It was a deal. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
It was a contract, and as a result of that contract | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
you would slay the five evil giants of society. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
Want, disease, ignorance, | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
squalor and idleness. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
NEWSREEL: 'There must be no mass unemployment. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
'The giant evil of only yesterday.' | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
Ironic isn't it, that 70 years after the report was published | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
the principle charge against the welfare state | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
is that it helps to create idleness. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
Exactly the opposite, exactly the opposite of what Beveridge intended. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:05 | |
But is that a charge that stands in an area like this, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
the North East of England? | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
One in ten are out of work here, | 0:10:16 | 0:10:17 | |
the highest unemployment rate in the country. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:19 | |
You might think the reason for that is simple - no jobs. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
But talk to the Mayor of Middlesbrough, Ray Mallon, | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
you get a very different explanation. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
When you look at Middlesbrough, out of the 88,000 working population, | 0:10:31 | 0:10:36 | |
18,000 people are on some form of benefit. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:39 | |
18,000 people out of an 88,000 working population on benefits, | 0:10:39 | 0:10:44 | |
that's a big issue. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:45 | |
At the moment you've got a large cohort of people | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
not even applying for jobs. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
This just isn't on. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:51 | |
It is almost a lack of hope, it's almost a lack of engagement, | 0:10:51 | 0:10:57 | |
that the state have looked after us and they'll continue to do it. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
You have only to drive around an estate like this, | 0:11:03 | 0:11:05 | |
just up the road from Middlesbrough, to see what he means. | 0:11:05 | 0:11:10 | |
It's just after 2pm and there are an awful lot of young men | 0:11:11 | 0:11:17 | |
wandering around the place, standing in their doorways. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
Obviously not at work. Obviously don't have jobs. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:25 | |
I've tried to talk to many of them. We've knocked on doors | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
to talk to them, and nobody wants to talk. | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
I did eventually find a couple prepared to talk to me. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
Steve Brown and Paula Mort live with their three children | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
entirely on benefits. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
If you include their rent, | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
they collect more than £1,600 a month from the State. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:44 | |
Do you think that a sort of attitude develops | 0:11:46 | 0:11:48 | |
in an area, on an estate maybe, in a certain area, | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
-that says, well... -There is no jobs so... | 0:11:54 | 0:12:01 | |
-..so living on benefits is an acceptable lifestyle? -Yeah, yeah. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
See, before I take a job, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:05 | |
you have to sit down with them and work it out, | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
whether it's acceptable to go to work or not. | 0:12:08 | 0:12:13 | |
When you say acceptable, acceptable in what way? | 0:12:13 | 0:12:16 | |
Whether it'll be worth your while. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:18 | |
Whether it's worth your while to go to work. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
Right. Why might it not be then? | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
Because I might go to work for 40 hours | 0:12:23 | 0:12:26 | |
and then dumped with £30 or £20, | 0:12:26 | 0:12:28 | |
after I've paid out all the bills. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:32 | |
And what about you, Paula? Why are you not working at the moment? | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
I've got a two-year-old little boy so I've been looking after him but... | 0:12:36 | 0:12:41 | |
But you've got Steve, and your mother. | 0:12:41 | 0:12:43 | |
-Yeah. The money's not good enough to go to work. -Well, that's it. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
That's the problem with me - I want to work | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
but I can't afford minimum wage. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:51 | |
You don't think working's better than not working, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:55 | |
whatever the financial outcome? | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
No, no, not at all, no. I just don't see... | 0:12:57 | 0:13:01 | |
I mean, I don't want to be going out to work for 40 hours | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
and missing my kids | 0:13:05 | 0:13:07 | |
if I'm only going to receive a few quid extra for it. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:13 | |
Do you understand? I'm missing my kids growing up. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
I can't see how the minimum wage is good enough. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:20 | |
That's all. When.. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:22 | |
But a lot of people do work for the minimum wage. | 0:13:22 | 0:13:25 | |
Well, the way it worked out for me, like I say, | 0:13:25 | 0:13:28 | |
it was just not worth going to work for it. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:30 | |
So what Steve Brown has done is make a straightforward calculation. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
Go out to work for very little extra or stay home and enjoy his children. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:43 | |
He's chosen the later. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:44 | |
And that presents politicians with a massive dilemma. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
The problem comes when the state tries to distinguish | 0:13:50 | 0:13:55 | |
between those people who can't work and those who don't want to work. | 0:13:55 | 0:14:00 | |
Between, what would have been referred to in Beveridge's time - | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
highly controversial language these days, | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
the deserving and undeserving poor. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
Here we are girls. | 0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | |
Let's have a look and see what we've got. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
What's come up so far today. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:17 | |
There's a domestic cleaner in Middlesbrough | 0:14:17 | 0:14:20 | |
and must be reliable due to do general domestic cleaning. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
We can check that out for you. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:26 | |
I went to a job club in Middlesbrough. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:29 | |
-Hello. -Hello. -Hiya. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
So you are both looking for work. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
Definitely, carer, cleaner, anything you name it. | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
-Minimum wage? -Yeah. 16 hours minimum. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
-16 hours minimum. -Yeah. -And what you can't find anything? | 0:14:41 | 0:14:44 | |
No. It's like, "Oh, yeah, I'll give you a number." | 0:14:44 | 0:14:46 | |
But they never get in touch with me. They just blank me. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
So what about you? How old are you? | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
-I'm 20. -Are you prepared to work in lower paid jobs? | 0:14:52 | 0:14:56 | |
I am willing to work anywhere as long as it is a job | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
and it gets me out the house. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
And how many of your friends are in this same situation? | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
Oh, quite a few of them. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
I have done 60 applications in the space of a year | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
and none of them have replied. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
They have not replied? | 0:15:11 | 0:15:12 | |
60 in a year and nobody's bothered to reply to you. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
So the future is not looking terribly promising. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
It is just hard. Very hard. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
We will get there. We have to. We will just keep plodding on. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
Shop floor assistant. It's the national minimum wage. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
It is very hard not to feel sorry for people in that situation. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:34 | |
They have been trying and in some cases trying for a very long time. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
Some of them have been out of work for a very long time. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
And it is tempting of course to say, | 0:15:40 | 0:15:42 | |
"Well, try a bit harder, you will get something in the end." | 0:15:42 | 0:15:46 | |
But the longer it goes on, | 0:15:46 | 0:15:48 | |
the greater their sense of disillusionment | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
and the greater their sense of failure. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
Numbers of workless households, | 0:15:57 | 0:15:58 | |
where work has never been experienced in that house, | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
has doubled since 1997. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:03 | |
Gavin Poole runs the think tank The Centre For Social Justice, | 0:16:04 | 0:16:08 | |
which was set up by the former Tory leader, | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
now Welfare Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
who asked it to suggest ways of reforming the benefit system. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
I think there's something wrong with a system | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
that enables part of the population who could work to choose the option | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
to live on benefits, and we think that's wrong. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:29 | |
A lot of people are trapped on benefits, | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
they're worse off by going into work, | 0:16:32 | 0:16:33 | |
and that simply is not, that's not right. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
You're saying, therefore, cut benefits? | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
All of the work that we looked at, | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
we didn't make a call on whether the benefits were too high or low. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:46 | |
But by definition they're too high | 0:16:46 | 0:16:47 | |
if you're saying that work doesn't pay? | 0:16:47 | 0:16:49 | |
No, by definition what we're saying is there's a complexity | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
around what benefits are being paid. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:54 | |
Why shouldn't you be saying, | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
"Make 'em work because it's better for them?" | 0:16:56 | 0:16:58 | |
An awful lot of people would agree. | 0:16:58 | 0:17:00 | |
As soon as you start going down the road, | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
"We'll force them, we'll make them," | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
-I think that's quite a strong, strong line. -Why? Why? | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
I think the whole argument around enforced... | 0:17:08 | 0:17:12 | |
OK, so what happens if they refuse to co-operate? | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
We know there's sanctions, there's already sanctions in place, | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
which is to encourage, that is to make. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
But it makes it sound like, "You are to work, you are to work." | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
And actually what we say is you need to support... | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
That's exactly the point I'm making. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:27 | |
..you need to support, encourage, you need to mentor. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
And if that doesn't work? | 0:17:30 | 0:17:31 | |
Then sanctions are applied. So I think... | 0:17:31 | 0:17:33 | |
So sooner or later you get to the situation where you make them? | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
You get to a point where that happens. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
More sanctions, eh? Is that where we're heading? | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
Well, one way of making people work is to pay them so little in benefits | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
they literally can't afford not to. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
Which is why some Eastern Europeans come here. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:55 | |
Amongst them, a couple of Polish workers I met on the south coast. | 0:17:56 | 0:18:00 | |
If you're out of work and on benefits in Poland, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:04 | |
what do you get? What sort of income do you have? | 0:18:04 | 0:18:07 | |
What you get is nothing, really, | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
it's not enough to survive. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:11 | |
You can just live for the one week, but not more. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
You cannot get the house benefit, er, house from the council. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:18 | |
Nothing like that. | 0:18:18 | 0:18:19 | |
If you get your month's benefits, | 0:18:19 | 0:18:22 | |
-you can only live for one week on it? -About, yeah. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
It's definitely not enough to pay your rent. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:28 | |
It's like getting £150 a month. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
Oh, really? Whereas here you might get £150 a week. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
Exactly. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:34 | |
Why do you think it is that there are so many young men | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
in this country who are living off benefits rather than in work? | 0:18:38 | 0:18:43 | |
I think definitely the Government is... | 0:18:43 | 0:18:47 | |
-Too generous. -..too generous, compared to ours back in Poland. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:52 | |
So there we are. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
A perfectly simple answer | 0:18:57 | 0:18:58 | |
to the problem of how you get people off benefits and into work. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
You cut the benefits. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:03 | |
You give them almost nothing to live on, as happens in Poland. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:08 | |
But do we really want to do that sort of thing? | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
Do we really want to force people into work | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
by giving them absolutely no alternative? | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
Well, many British politicians bent on welfare reform | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
have looked for inspiration | 0:19:24 | 0:19:26 | |
to one place where they did exactly that in the late '90s. | 0:19:26 | 0:19:29 | |
Like us, the United States faced a rising welfare bill. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:44 | |
Politicians feared that a sense of entitlement | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
was producing a dependency culture, and public attitudes were hardening. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:52 | |
So much so that Bill Clinton himself | 0:19:52 | 0:19:54 | |
swore to "end welfare as we know it." | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
And at the heart of the American proposition is one simple principal. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:06 | |
If you want welfare benefits, you have to work for them. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
And so began what's been called America's welfare revolution. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
I went to see the man responsible for implementing these reforms, | 0:20:16 | 0:20:21 | |
called Workfare, here in New York City, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:24 | |
the welfare commissioner, Robert Doar. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:26 | |
Commissioner, paint a picture if you would, | 0:20:28 | 0:20:31 | |
of why it was necessary in this city | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
to introduce some kind of Workfare scheme. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:36 | |
What was going wrong? | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
Well, I think our system had developed a sense of entitlement | 0:20:38 | 0:20:41 | |
in people that came to the government seeking assistance, | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
that they would do something without having to do anything, | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
or do some cash benefit without them having to do anything in return. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
The benefits of receiving a benefit without working | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
were greater than the benefits of going to work. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
So you've been saying to people, in essence, | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
"Work, do your job, whatever the job may be, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
"or you lose your benefit, that's it." | 0:21:05 | 0:21:07 | |
We said, "You need to go to work, we expect you to go to work. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
"If you don't go to work, we're going to talk to you about why you're not working. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
"We're always going to have something for you to do." | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
So how's it working out? | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
If you want benefits in New York City, | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
you have to come to a place like this job centre. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
And you don't get the benefit | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
unless you can prove that you've actually started job hunting. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
Yeah, how are you? | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
Here I met one of the architects of the scheme, Professor Larry Mead. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
-Larry. -John, great to see you. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
-Good to see you. -Good to see you. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
Now this what we would call a job centre. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
-You'd call it a job centre, as well? -Correct. Yes, we do. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
But a rather different job centre from the sort that I'm used to. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
The most important thing is that a new applicant for aid | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
would be faced very quickly with an expectation about looking for a job. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
So they don't... The very first, effectively, the very first thing | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
they say to them is, "You've got to find a job"? | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
Yes. Yes. You're expected to look for a job | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
even while your application for aid is being considered, | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
rather than later. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:14 | |
So right up front, you face a work requirement. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
You have to work as a condition of aid. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
-It's a heck of a change, isn't it? -Yes, it is. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
-In a short space of time, it's been turned on its head. -Correct. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
Elaine Hewitt, the job centre manager, showed me around. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
Applicants come back here to talk about what their situation is. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
-Helping them to find a job? -Right. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
And that's what... The essence of this operation | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
-is to help people find work. -Right. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:44 | |
And what if people say, "I don't want that job." Flat out, "No"? | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
Eventually, what happens to that person? | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
Then they're failing to co-operate with our guidelines, | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
and then that results in a denial. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
Meaning, in practical terms? | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
Meaning no more assistance. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
-No more assistance? -Yeah, no more assistance. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
Do people often say, "Well, hold on a minute, | 0:23:03 | 0:23:05 | |
"it is my right, my entitlement, to have this benefit"? | 0:23:05 | 0:23:09 | |
Well, you know what, they used to say that, back in the days. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
Right now, I don't really hear that anymore. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
-Really? -Yeah. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
It may seem, indeed it is, a pretty tough approach. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
But one claimant I spoke to obviously had no resentment. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
-You'd been working... -Yes. -..for a long time. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
-You'd paid your taxes. -That's right. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
-You're a good citizen. -I would think so. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
Then, through no fault of your own, you lost your job, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
because the firm was downsizing. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
That's right, that's right. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:37 | |
Didn't you feel that you had an entitlement | 0:23:37 | 0:23:40 | |
to benefit from the city, from the state? | 0:23:40 | 0:23:44 | |
I didn't see it that way, I didn't feel that way. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
I felt that, I'm down now and the system's helping me, | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
and with respect to getting out of the public assistance, | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
if worst came to worst, if I had to take three, four jobs, I would do it. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
When these workfare reforms were introduced across the country, | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
they had a dramatic effect. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:05 | |
In one state, the number of people on welfare dropped by more than 80%. | 0:24:05 | 0:24:10 | |
Here in New York, it was a more modest but still pretty hefty 26%. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:15 | |
And the reforms caught the eye of some politicians back in Britain, | 0:24:16 | 0:24:20 | |
earning Professor Mead an invitation to Downing Street last June, | 0:24:20 | 0:24:25 | |
as the coalition Government | 0:24:25 | 0:24:27 | |
began considering its own plans for welfare reform. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
To what extent are your fingerprints on the measures | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
that are now being proposed in Britain? | 0:24:34 | 0:24:36 | |
I think if they're on it, it's in connection with this basic idea | 0:24:36 | 0:24:41 | |
that there should be a work obligation connected to aid, | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
so we should not have entitlement. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
We should not give people money simply because they're low income. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
We should expect that they work in return for aid. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
I do think that's the idea which I claim ownership of, | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
and I which I think has had some influence. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
But ultimately the American welfare revolution happened | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
because the public were demanding change. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
The question for politicians in this country | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
is whether the British public wants something similar to happen. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:13 | |
We asked the polling organisation Ipsos Mori | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
to conduct some research for us. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
'I talked to the chief executive Ben Page about the results.' | 0:25:20 | 0:25:24 | |
Ben, what's the thing that most leaps out at you? | 0:25:24 | 0:25:26 | |
What do they think of the welfare state? | 0:25:26 | 0:25:28 | |
I think it shows that the British public's belief in the welfare state | 0:25:28 | 0:25:32 | |
and the principals behind it is absolutely rock solid. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
We put a number of statements to a sample of British voters. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
This first: | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
"It's important to have a benefits system | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
"to provide a safety net for anyone that needs it." | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
With that, a massive 92% were in agreement. | 0:25:48 | 0:25:52 | |
Only 4% disagreed. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
Only four people in 100 would disagree with the idea | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
that we need some sort of safety net and minimum standard. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
-You don't get bigger than that. -92% agreement. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:04 | |
There are very few things that more people would agree with | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
in this country, so that's very clear. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
But dig a little deeper and you get a very different response. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
We put this statement to our sample: | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
"The benefit system is working effectively at present in Britain." | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
Well, only 23% of people agreed with that. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
63% thought that it wasn't working effectively. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
So how is the Government going to reform our system | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
and cut the welfare budget? | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
David Cameron says by £5.5 billion. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
Well, one of the first things they've done | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
is target the long-term unemployed. | 0:26:44 | 0:26:46 | |
And what they're doing under the new work programme, | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
as they did in America, | 0:26:49 | 0:26:50 | |
is to attach extra conditions to getting benefits. | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
For many, in effect, that means going back to school. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:59 | |
So up here you have these basic skills classrooms. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
And when you say classrooms, you're actually literally teaching people? | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
-Yeah. -For how long would that go on? | 0:27:07 | 0:27:09 | |
-It's 104 weeks. -Two years? -Yeah. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:13 | |
You can have a look at these. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:14 | |
Take these with you. This will give every single one of you | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
an insight into barriers to employment opportunities. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
The Government hopes that using private companies | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
to run centres like these and paying them by results | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
will give them the best chance | 0:27:26 | 0:27:28 | |
of cutting the number of long-term unemployed. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:31 | |
OK, some people just don't want to work. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
Some people think they're better off on benefits. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:37 | |
I can assure you, you're not better off on benefits. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:41 | |
Some of you have motivational issues and confidence issues. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:44 | |
What we try and do is to try and get you to see | 0:27:44 | 0:27:46 | |
how working can benefit your life, | 0:27:46 | 0:27:48 | |
how working can enhance your life at the same time. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
OK? It can. Trouble! | 0:27:51 | 0:27:54 | |
It's one thing to prepare people for work, | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
make them, help them want to work. | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
But if the jobs aren't there? | 0:28:00 | 0:28:02 | |
There are jobs out there. | 0:28:02 | 0:28:04 | |
I think it was in April this year, there was nearly half a million jobs. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
I have never found it where we're struggling to actually get jobs. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:13 | |
They won't always map exactly to the people that are looking for them. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
It's working with people, | 0:28:17 | 0:28:18 | |
for them to be realistic with their expectations. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
Presumably, you're all looking for work? | 0:28:21 | 0:28:23 | |
-ALL: -Yeah. | 0:28:23 | 0:28:24 | |
I've been out of work for two years. I've got three children | 0:28:24 | 0:28:28 | |
and a mortgage that I can't pay at the moment. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
It's got to the stage where you don't get rejection letters at all, | 0:28:31 | 0:28:35 | |
it's just, "If you don't hear from us | 0:28:35 | 0:28:37 | |
"within a couple of weeks, assume you haven't been selected." | 0:28:37 | 0:28:41 | |
I'm no longer classed as unemployed, I'm on a training course, | 0:28:41 | 0:28:45 | |
and it's the Government manipulating figures | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
to make the unemployment figures look better than they are. | 0:28:49 | 0:28:53 | |
Overcome barriers... | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
Here, they have lessons in literacy, numeracy, even motivation. | 0:28:55 | 0:29:01 | |
But you might raise an eyebrow | 0:29:01 | 0:29:02 | |
at some of the other things they have to do. | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
We got people to design a cupcake. | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
We just got a lot of the little tiny fairy cakes | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
and we got all the icing and the different decorating materials, | 0:29:11 | 0:29:15 | |
little tiny icing balls and things, and then someone won. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:19 | |
We got a little cup, a picture and a voucher. | 0:29:19 | 0:29:22 | |
These are grown up men and women we're talking about here. | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
-Yeah, yeah. -They've been through ten, 12 years of education. | 0:29:25 | 0:29:29 | |
You're sure that what you're doing isn't treating them like children? | 0:29:29 | 0:29:33 | |
No. It's about people feeling that they have a value, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
and that people care about what they do. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:38 | |
The main problem we've got at the moment | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
is that the system is treating everybody exactly the same, | 0:29:43 | 0:29:48 | |
rather than taking into account individual circumstances. | 0:29:48 | 0:29:54 | |
To class everyone from every background as needing that same... | 0:29:54 | 0:29:58 | |
um, that same type of education. | 0:29:58 | 0:30:03 | |
So you feel slightly patronised by it? | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
-It's just crazy. -You have so many people coming in at one time. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:09 | |
So that's why sometimes it feels like you're all being put into one category, | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
because, really and truly, there's not enough hours in the day | 0:30:13 | 0:30:17 | |
and there's not enough staff to deal with the whole situation. | 0:30:17 | 0:30:20 | |
But behind all this, you see that simple idea. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:25 | |
If someone is getting money from the State, | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
there should be more conditions attached, or else. | 0:30:28 | 0:30:31 | |
They don't have any choice, | 0:30:32 | 0:30:34 | |
if they don't come to you, they'll lose benefits? | 0:30:34 | 0:30:36 | |
Yeah, if they don't come to us for the 30 hours on the timesheets, | 0:30:36 | 0:30:40 | |
and they don't participate and we dismiss them, | 0:30:40 | 0:30:42 | |
they lose their benefits. | 0:30:42 | 0:30:44 | |
So, back to our poll, | 0:30:46 | 0:30:47 | |
and we put this statement to our cross-section of voters: | 0:30:47 | 0:30:51 | |
"There are some groups of people who claim benefits | 0:30:51 | 0:30:53 | |
"and who should have the benefits cut." | 0:30:53 | 0:30:56 | |
76% agreed with that. Only 9% disagreed. | 0:30:56 | 0:31:01 | |
So, who should have their benefits cut? | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
Well, there were more than two million people claiming | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
what was called incapacity benefit. | 0:31:08 | 0:31:10 | |
But the Government reckons many, if not most of them, | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
may not be entitled to it. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
In Tower Hamlets in London, I met Dr Sharon Fisher. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:22 | |
Many of her patients have been claiming that benefit. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:25 | |
When you look at the total figures of people on incapacity benefit... | 0:31:25 | 0:31:29 | |
-Yes. -..what do you think of that? | 0:31:29 | 0:31:31 | |
Unbelievable. | 0:31:31 | 0:31:33 | |
Two-and-a-half million people who are on incapacity benefits | 0:31:33 | 0:31:36 | |
in the whole of the UK? | 0:31:36 | 0:31:38 | |
Unbelievable. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:39 | |
I do think there's exploitation of the benefits system, | 0:31:39 | 0:31:43 | |
and I tell patients, | 0:31:43 | 0:31:44 | |
I think it's not in your best interests to be off sick. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:47 | |
And how do they react to that? | 0:31:47 | 0:31:49 | |
Sometimes patients are adamant they need time off, | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
that the previous doctor has signed them off, | 0:31:52 | 0:31:54 | |
or that they've been off for a very long time | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
and "What's different now? | 0:31:57 | 0:31:58 | |
"Why aren't you giving me my time off?" | 0:31:58 | 0:32:00 | |
As a clinician, I know that the longer the patient is off sick, | 0:32:00 | 0:32:05 | |
the longer or the lower the chance of ever returning to work. | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
So, you find that rather depressing? | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
It's sad. Yes, it's very sad. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
Sad for the people involved and sad for society? | 0:32:16 | 0:32:20 | |
Absolutely. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:21 | |
So your local doctor no longer has the final say. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:28 | |
More stringent tests have been brought in to flush out | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
people claiming on health grounds when they shouldn't be. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:34 | |
For some, that's just a correction of a previous political fudge | 0:32:37 | 0:32:41 | |
that led to the incapacity bill rocketing up | 0:32:41 | 0:32:44 | |
over the past couple of decades. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
What we started to do 20, 25 years ago | 0:32:47 | 0:32:50 | |
is hide very large numbers of unemployed people | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
on incapacity benefits. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:54 | |
The Government at the time was happy for that to happen | 0:32:54 | 0:32:57 | |
because it hid the scale of unemployment | 0:32:57 | 0:33:01 | |
and the individuals were happy to go on incapacity benefit | 0:33:01 | 0:33:04 | |
rather than jobseeker's allowance, | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
because in most circumstances they were better off doing so. | 0:33:06 | 0:33:10 | |
Better off by around 25%, | 0:33:10 | 0:33:11 | |
and that's the money the Government's trying to cut. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
Figures show three quarters of new claimants who've been tested | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
were deemed not to merit the benefit at all. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:22 | |
Every week, 11,000 people | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
attend centres similar to the one behind me here | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
to go through that assessment. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:30 | |
Makes common sense, you might think. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:32 | |
Why should people get the benefit if they're not entitled to it? | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
But it's political dynamite. | 0:33:36 | 0:33:37 | |
You can imagine the headlines if it goes wrong. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
We made several requests to see this process in action, | 0:33:42 | 0:33:46 | |
but all of them were denied. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
So I went off to West London | 0:33:49 | 0:33:51 | |
to meet someone who's been through the system, Yvonne Power. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:55 | |
Hello, pleased to meet you. How are you? | 0:33:56 | 0:33:58 | |
-Hello, very nice to meet you. -Come in. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:00 | |
She's far from happy with the treatment that she received. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
I was very, very ill. I had projectile vomiting, | 0:34:04 | 0:34:08 | |
I couldn't eat, dizziness. I was just completely exhausted | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
and I haven't been able to go back to work, obviously, since. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:15 | |
I've recently had a diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome/ME. | 0:34:15 | 0:34:22 | |
So, you went for an assessment. What happened then? | 0:34:22 | 0:34:27 | |
I scored nil points. Nil points! | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
-Out of a...? -15, 15 is what you need to get, and I scored nil. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:37 | |
Right. Were you surprised at that? | 0:34:37 | 0:34:39 | |
I was extremely surprised, extremely shocked and surprised, | 0:34:39 | 0:34:43 | |
and obviously very distressed, as well, because, | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
um, how was I going to live, financially, | 0:34:47 | 0:34:52 | |
when they were telling me that I wasn't actually entitled to it? | 0:34:52 | 0:34:55 | |
So you launched an appeal? | 0:34:55 | 0:34:57 | |
My appeal was successful. I didn't even have to attend the tribunal. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:02 | |
So you have to be tested now, you have to be assessed, | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
-every six months to see whether you can work? -Yeah. | 0:35:05 | 0:35:09 | |
Why isn't that fair? | 0:35:09 | 0:35:10 | |
Well, it isn't fair because my, | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
my disability, hasn't changed in any way. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
But it might, I mean, you might wake up next week | 0:35:16 | 0:35:18 | |
or next month and you know... | 0:35:18 | 0:35:20 | |
I think that the system at the moment and the way that, | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
um, you're dealt with is just very badly designed. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:27 | |
You are just there for them to be able to tick a box. | 0:35:27 | 0:35:31 | |
So back to our sample of voters. What do they think about this? | 0:35:31 | 0:35:36 | |
Here is a statement we put to them: | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
"We need stricter tests | 0:35:39 | 0:35:41 | |
"to ensure people claiming incapacity benefit | 0:35:41 | 0:35:43 | |
"because of sickness or disability are genuinely unable to work". | 0:35:43 | 0:35:47 | |
84% of people agreed with that only 10% disagreed. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:55 | |
But if the Government's worried about sickness benefits, | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
it's more worried about another benefit costing three times as much. | 0:36:01 | 0:36:06 | |
David Cameron says little has shocked him more | 0:36:09 | 0:36:11 | |
since he came into office, than the bill for housing benefit. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
We inherited a system that cost £20 billion a year. | 0:36:16 | 0:36:20 | |
We've been paying people to live in some of the most | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
expensive areas in London, the UK, the world. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
And this is exactly the kind of place he's on about. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:29 | |
Islington in London. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
Some of the priciest housing in the country. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
But there's not much social housing here, | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
so the State pays huge amounts | 0:36:40 | 0:36:42 | |
to private landlords to accommodate people on benefit. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
Which is why the Government's now capping it | 0:36:46 | 0:36:49 | |
up to a maximum £1,600 a month. | 0:36:49 | 0:36:51 | |
The councillor responsible for housing here says it's unreasonable. | 0:36:53 | 0:36:56 | |
Because the caps | 0:36:56 | 0:36:57 | |
the Government has imposed have been so draconian, | 0:36:57 | 0:37:01 | |
somewhere like here they'll have a huge effect, | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
creating a big gap between the rent people are expected to pay | 0:37:03 | 0:37:06 | |
and the caps, which means a lot of families will have to move, | 0:37:06 | 0:37:09 | |
and a lot will have to move out of Islington and even London. | 0:37:09 | 0:37:12 | |
But looking at some of these houses which would cost | 0:37:12 | 0:37:15 | |
at least £2 million. | 0:37:15 | 0:37:16 | |
And many of them, not just in this square, | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
but other squares in Islington, will be lived in by people, | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
maybe in some cases, living entirely on benefits. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:25 | |
You don't think there's any resentment from people, | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
whether it's Islington or anywhere else, | 0:37:28 | 0:37:30 | |
having to pay taxes to enable people on lower incomes than themselves, | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
to live in houses that they themselves can't afford? | 0:37:34 | 0:37:38 | |
Part of the problem in Islington is that if | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
you are on a low income and you have a family, | 0:37:40 | 0:37:43 | |
the only way you can properly afford to live here | 0:37:43 | 0:37:45 | |
with stability, is through genuinely affordable housing. | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
That comes back to, we should have more council housing, | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
more social housing somewhere. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:53 | |
When there isn't that social or council housing available, | 0:37:53 | 0:37:56 | |
people do then get pushed into the private end of the sector, | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
where some rent is covered by benefits. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
The benefits bill racks up. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
In this age of age of austerity should the taxpayer | 0:38:06 | 0:38:08 | |
really have to pick up such a large bill | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
to keep London supplied with low paid workers? | 0:38:11 | 0:38:14 | |
We asked Islington Council to give us an example of the sort | 0:38:16 | 0:38:19 | |
of people they fear will be driven from the borough. | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
Ah, hello. There you all are. | 0:38:22 | 0:38:25 | |
-My name is Eduardo. -Eduardo, hello. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:28 | |
'Eduardo Celleri is originally from Ecuador. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:31 | |
'Then he moved to Spain where he became a Spanish citizen.' | 0:38:31 | 0:38:34 | |
-I'm Isaac. -And how old are you? -Nine. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:37 | |
-You are nine? And do you like living here? -Yeah. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
'The family moved here 18 months ago and were eligible for UK benefits.' | 0:38:40 | 0:38:45 | |
That's my family. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:46 | |
This is your family? A very handsome family it is too. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
Family, yes. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:50 | |
Now, you are a mechanical engineer, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:54 | |
but you could not get work as a mechanical engineer here, could you? | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
'But working as a cleaner means he's got a low income | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
'and a four-bedroom flat in Islington doesn't come cheap. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:12 | |
'So, the State pays out a large amount to subsidise this family.' | 0:39:12 | 0:39:18 | |
How much is the rent on this apartment, on this flat? | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
£2,300. | 0:39:21 | 0:39:22 | |
This flat costs £2,300 a month? What do you get in benefit? | 0:39:22 | 0:39:26 | |
Child Benefit and Working Tax Credit and housing. | 0:39:26 | 0:39:31 | |
Right, most of the rent is covered by the Housing Benefit. | 0:39:31 | 0:39:35 | |
How would you manage if the Housing Benefit were to be cut? | 0:39:35 | 0:39:39 | |
There are some people who believe, | 0:39:53 | 0:39:57 | |
including many politicians, of course, | 0:39:57 | 0:40:02 | |
that because you are a foreigner, because you are not British, | 0:40:02 | 0:40:07 | |
you should not receive benefits from the State. | 0:40:07 | 0:40:11 | |
Have you ever thought of moving out of London to a cheaper town? | 0:40:29 | 0:40:33 | |
You meet a family like that and it raises | 0:40:42 | 0:40:45 | |
so many big important questions. | 0:40:45 | 0:40:47 | |
Obviously a lovely family, you can't possibly not warm to them. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:52 | |
Incredibly hard working, | 0:40:52 | 0:40:54 | |
decent people doing the very best they can for their children. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
Their children ambitious too, working hard to learn English, | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
doing all the things that you'd expect and hope that they would do. | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
And one day, no doubt about it, | 0:41:04 | 0:41:06 | |
if they stay, they'll be a great asset to this country. | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
What country would not want to have them as its citizens? | 0:41:10 | 0:41:13 | |
But at the moment, they are costing a lot in welfare benefits. | 0:41:13 | 0:41:19 | |
Housing Benefit alone about £2,000 a month. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
And the big question you have to ask at the end of it all is, | 0:41:22 | 0:41:26 | |
is this what the Welfare State is for? | 0:41:26 | 0:41:30 | |
Here's another statement Ipsos Mori put to our cross section | 0:41:33 | 0:41:38 | |
of the electorate in our poll. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
More than half agreed with that, 57%. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
29% disagreed. | 0:41:55 | 0:41:56 | |
The last group the Government have targeted is one | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
Sir William Beveridge would never have envisaged | 0:42:02 | 0:42:04 | |
when he mapped out who should receive benefit all those years ago. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:10 | |
In his day, single mothers were rare. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
Today, well, they're not. | 0:42:13 | 0:42:16 | |
I spoke to Professor Paul Gregg at Bristol University. | 0:42:16 | 0:42:20 | |
We are now in a situation where the support of a child | 0:42:20 | 0:42:23 | |
in terms of the cash payments received | 0:42:23 | 0:42:26 | |
is broadly equivalent to that for an adult. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:28 | |
Whereas, roll-back 20 years, you would have got about | 0:42:28 | 0:42:32 | |
one third that support for a child. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:34 | |
Where we have increased generosity greatly is the support of children, | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
and this was an attempt to reduce child poverty. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:40 | |
The other side of this kind of argument, if you like, | 0:42:40 | 0:42:43 | |
is that the very creation of that kind of safety net encourages people | 0:42:43 | 0:42:48 | |
to perhaps exist on welfare payments longer than they otherwise would do. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:52 | |
So, governments wanted to help poor children, | 0:42:55 | 0:42:58 | |
they ended up giving their mothers an incentive not to work. | 0:42:58 | 0:43:01 | |
Here in Knowsley, in Merseyside, | 0:43:01 | 0:43:04 | |
the number of one-parent families is nearly twice the national average. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:09 | |
This is a support group that helps young mothers who don't have a job. | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
The government wants to get 300,000 more lone parents | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
looking for work by making them find it earlier, | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
not when your child's seven, but five. | 0:43:20 | 0:43:23 | |
They leave school with no education | 0:43:23 | 0:43:25 | |
and they've got no aspirations. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:27 | |
Some young women may fall pregnant and think that's something, | 0:43:27 | 0:43:31 | |
someone to love. | 0:43:31 | 0:43:33 | |
-It's not "may", it's "do". -"Do", yeah. -A very large number do that. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:36 | |
But the fact is, if they're not married, | 0:43:36 | 0:43:39 | |
if they don't have somebody in the family who's earning an income, | 0:43:39 | 0:43:43 | |
from the State's point of view, they can represent an enormous burden, | 0:43:43 | 0:43:48 | |
if that's the right word, on the Welfare State, on the tax payer. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:52 | |
Perhaps, for the rest of their lives, that's possible? | 0:43:52 | 0:43:56 | |
-Because they... -It's really difficult. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:58 | |
..they want to bring the children up. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:00 | |
I think every woman is an individual. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
Every woman's got their own story, got their own background. | 0:44:03 | 0:44:06 | |
I couldn't judge any woman for whatever decision | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
that they decided to make on either going back to work | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
or being a full-time mum. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:14 | |
But these girls all want to get a job, they all want to, | 0:44:14 | 0:44:17 | |
that's why they're here every day. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:19 | |
So what we're going to do, | 0:44:19 | 0:44:20 | |
we're going to start off talking about stress in our eyes. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
It's clear that for these mothers, | 0:44:23 | 0:44:25 | |
the high rate of benefits is acting as a disincentive. | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
My mum's worked all her life, | 0:44:29 | 0:44:30 | |
she has to go and pay for tablets at the doctors and the dentist and that. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
Whereas, there's me, who gets me rent paid for, | 0:44:34 | 0:44:36 | |
I don't pay for nothing in the doctors, | 0:44:36 | 0:44:38 | |
I pay nothing in the dentist and sometimes it makes me angry. | 0:44:38 | 0:44:41 | |
What is the point in working? If that's how it's going to be? | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
But I do want to go and work. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:46 | |
But this is what I'm saying, it's not that you don't want a job, | 0:44:46 | 0:44:49 | |
it's the barriers that are in front of you getting that job. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:52 | |
Like your child care. | 0:44:52 | 0:44:53 | |
Even if I went to work, half my wages anyway would go on childcare. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:59 | |
I'm not saying I don't want a job, | 0:44:59 | 0:45:01 | |
but it wouldn't pay for my childcare and rent, | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
and 'leccy and gas and shopping. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:05 | |
You don't want to get your wages and go "Oh, it's gone". | 0:45:05 | 0:45:09 | |
We get called for these interviews, | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
they threaten to stop your benefits, | 0:45:11 | 0:45:13 | |
and you go and there's nothing that works around you, | 0:45:13 | 0:45:15 | |
you can't get your childcare paid, or you'll find a job where | 0:45:15 | 0:45:19 | |
you have to be somewhere for eight o'clock, it takes an hour to get to. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
And there's no childcare places that can take your child | 0:45:22 | 0:45:25 | |
at seven o'clock, do you know what I mean? | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
It's not fair getting your child up at half five in the morning. | 0:45:28 | 0:45:31 | |
Getting them out the house and stuff like that. | 0:45:31 | 0:45:35 | |
And then you struggle and paying to go to work, | 0:45:35 | 0:45:37 | |
having to pay towards your childcare and if the job | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
doesn't pay good enough to support all that. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:42 | |
It's like you go to work for nothing, isn't it? | 0:45:42 | 0:45:44 | |
You feel like people are looking at you and judging you? | 0:45:44 | 0:45:49 | |
Yeah, like I just bum everything off the social and I can't be bothered. | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
It's one of them things, you say, | 0:45:53 | 0:45:56 | |
"I would never get pregnant, I'd do this if I got pregnant", | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
but it's not easy when you are there, in that situation, you know? | 0:45:59 | 0:46:03 | |
To just say oh, I'd go and get rid of a baby. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:05 | |
I was young, put it that way. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:07 | |
Obviously you don't realise the impact of having | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
a child in your life does to you. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
-You lack confidence when you've had a baby, don't you? -Yeah. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
Your body is not the same, you don't feel the same. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:20 | |
So, you are not just going to go out... | 0:46:20 | 0:46:22 | |
People who are critical of the Welfare State | 0:46:22 | 0:46:24 | |
and there are plenty of them, will say actually | 0:46:24 | 0:46:27 | |
what you should be doing is saying in effect "Pull yourself together! | 0:46:27 | 0:46:31 | |
"Get out there and make something of yourself". | 0:46:31 | 0:46:33 | |
But we do, but we don't say it like we are in the army. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
I would never say to one woman, | 0:46:37 | 0:46:39 | |
"Right, it's time you got up and got a job and did this". | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
Our young people who are born today are our future. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:45 | |
And if they are going to grow up on benefits | 0:46:45 | 0:46:47 | |
they still deserve the same rights as anybody else. | 0:46:47 | 0:46:50 | |
It's not their fault that their parents are on benefits, is it? | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
If we didn't have benefits what would happen to these children? | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
That's the dilemma. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
Politicians want to cut the welfare bill. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
But how much pain are they prepared to inflict? | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
They asked that question in the United States | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
and the answer was, rather a lot. | 0:47:12 | 0:47:14 | |
I spoke to deputy Commissioner Lisa Fitzpatrick. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:22 | |
Here you are in New York City, saying, | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
"You got to work, you got to get out there and work." | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
Let's assume that a young woman applies for welfare. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:33 | |
She's just had a baby, she has no job, she needs money, | 0:47:33 | 0:47:38 | |
she says "I don't want to work. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:40 | |
"I want to stay home and look after my baby". What then? | 0:47:40 | 0:47:45 | |
She can keep claiming the benefits? | 0:47:45 | 0:47:47 | |
No. In our process, during the application stage, | 0:47:47 | 0:47:50 | |
if somebody refuses to work, | 0:47:50 | 0:47:52 | |
then they could be rejected, the application could be rejected. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:55 | |
The application for welfare? | 0:47:55 | 0:47:57 | |
The application could be rejected | 0:47:57 | 0:47:58 | |
if she is not otherwise exempt from the work requirements. | 0:47:58 | 0:48:01 | |
-Then her application would be rejected. -What if she has no money? | 0:48:01 | 0:48:05 | |
How does she... She has got to feed her child. | 0:48:05 | 0:48:07 | |
She may be able to get food stamps and medical assistance, | 0:48:07 | 0:48:10 | |
through a separate determination process, | 0:48:10 | 0:48:12 | |
but for cash assistance, we have a work first motto | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
and we expect everyone to use and accept work as a first opportunity. | 0:48:15 | 0:48:19 | |
Right. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:20 | |
And there are some really troubling aspects to this hard line approach. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:27 | |
If Workfare really is working, as its supporters claim, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
then they have to be able to prove two things. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
One, that poverty is falling. | 0:48:35 | 0:48:37 | |
And that's because people who were on benefits are now in jobs. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
They may not be massively better off but they are certainly no worse off. | 0:48:41 | 0:48:45 | |
And the other thing they have to prove is that it's not a quick fix. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:50 | |
And that it works not only when the economy is booming and there are | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
jobs for all but when it's struggling as it is at the moment. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:59 | |
And if that's the case, if it really is working, | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
how do you explain the existence, | 0:49:02 | 0:49:04 | |
in the middle of New York, of a place like this? | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
And a queue like this? | 0:49:07 | 0:49:08 | |
This soup kitchen and food pantry is a charity that doles out food | 0:49:12 | 0:49:16 | |
to New Yorkers who've fallen on hard times. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:18 | |
-Anything on here is two points. -OK. | 0:49:21 | 0:49:23 | |
Financially, things have gotten dire and you have to make ends meet | 0:49:23 | 0:49:27 | |
and thank God that, uh, we have places like this. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:32 | |
And these are obviously much cheaper here than... these are free? | 0:49:32 | 0:49:35 | |
Well, these are free. | 0:49:35 | 0:49:36 | |
How cheap can you get, if not for free? | 0:49:36 | 0:49:39 | |
Soup kitchens like these have become an integral part of the American | 0:49:39 | 0:49:43 | |
welfare system according to Aine Duggan one of the directors here. | 0:49:43 | 0:49:49 | |
We, in Britain, have unemployment. We don't have soup kitchens. | 0:49:49 | 0:49:52 | |
You don't have soup kitchens, | 0:49:52 | 0:49:54 | |
you also haven't encountered the atrocity of welfare reform yet. | 0:49:54 | 0:49:59 | |
But you might. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:00 | |
The atrocity of welfare reform? | 0:50:00 | 0:50:02 | |
Welfare reform is one of those interesting debates in the US. | 0:50:02 | 0:50:05 | |
I think the beauty for the rest of the Western World | 0:50:05 | 0:50:08 | |
is that we are able to now look at the American System | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
and see what actually happened and whether or not it was a success. | 0:50:11 | 0:50:15 | |
And what we are seeing is that in the wake of this recession, | 0:50:15 | 0:50:18 | |
that safety net has literally buckled and given way under the need | 0:50:18 | 0:50:22 | |
among families, particularly families with children. | 0:50:22 | 0:50:25 | |
But if you talk to, as I have just been doing, | 0:50:25 | 0:50:28 | |
to City Hall here in New York, | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
they say the system is working, poverty is falling. | 0:50:30 | 0:50:33 | |
If you take a myopic approach to it, it was a very successful initiative. | 0:50:33 | 0:50:37 | |
One of the things we did here in the United States was | 0:50:37 | 0:50:40 | |
we just looked at the near term, um, successes. | 0:50:40 | 0:50:44 | |
And so right after welfare reform was implemented, | 0:50:44 | 0:50:47 | |
we were able to say things like | 0:50:47 | 0:50:49 | |
"There's a higher number of, single mothers with children | 0:50:49 | 0:50:52 | |
"earning because they're back at work". | 0:50:52 | 0:50:55 | |
However, we have an unemployment rate that is practically double | 0:50:55 | 0:50:58 | |
what it was at the beginning of the recession. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:01 | |
In New York City, 1.5 million people living in poverty. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:05 | |
So, in reality, what is happening is that we took welfare reform | 0:51:05 | 0:51:09 | |
and we've used it as an excuse to cut and cut and cut. | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
And to push more and more families out of the welfare system. | 0:51:13 | 0:51:16 | |
This recession has certainly sent more and more families | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
to soup kitchens and food pantries. | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
It's also left people like Yvonne Fitzner and Sharon Tetrault, | 0:51:23 | 0:51:26 | |
both middle aged professional women, wondering quite literally | 0:51:26 | 0:51:31 | |
how they will survive now they have lost their jobs. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:34 | |
When did your payments run out? | 0:51:34 | 0:51:37 | |
March 2010. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:38 | |
-So, more than a year now? -More than a year now. Right? | 0:51:38 | 0:51:42 | |
How have you been coping? | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
Um, doing whatever I can to survive. | 0:51:44 | 0:51:46 | |
You wind up selling personal possessions, | 0:51:46 | 0:51:49 | |
whether it's jewellery or furniture. | 0:51:49 | 0:51:51 | |
My television was sold. I no longer have cable TV. | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
My dining table and chairs are gone. | 0:51:54 | 0:51:56 | |
I am sleeping on the floor of my kitchen. | 0:51:56 | 0:51:59 | |
I can't imagine how I am going to pay my rent or my phone. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:05 | |
Uh, I'm really, I'm scared. I'm just hoping for a miracle. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
You keep after yourself to keep your spirits up even though many times they drop. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:12 | |
I go to, um, soup kitchens now. | 0:52:12 | 0:52:15 | |
Seven days a week a different church offers dinner. | 0:52:15 | 0:52:18 | |
-You don't know what to do? -I don't know what I'll do. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
There is no net, it's just full of holes. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
If you don't protect the safety net, | 0:52:24 | 0:52:26 | |
you're next, you're next, you're next. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
There's no doubt people are suffering | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
as a result of welfare cutbacks. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
One estimate says that 40% of recipients of the Workfare scheme | 0:52:37 | 0:52:40 | |
have fallen through the safety net. | 0:52:40 | 0:52:43 | |
How can Professor Mead possibly justify that? | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
There is a problem here, isn't there, the hard facts. | 0:52:48 | 0:52:50 | |
How many people stay in work? | 0:52:50 | 0:52:52 | |
How many people go on to do better jobs? | 0:52:52 | 0:52:56 | |
About 60% were employed, that is, they took jobs. | 0:52:56 | 0:52:59 | |
The other 40% did not | 0:52:59 | 0:53:01 | |
and there is debate about whether they are worse off or not. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:04 | |
They are not working and not on welfare. | 0:53:04 | 0:53:06 | |
But it's clear that overall, | 0:53:06 | 0:53:08 | |
the economic effects of welfare reform are positive. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
-But are they? Are they? -Yes. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
The evidence seems not to be there. | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
What you don't know is how many people go on to do better jobs. | 0:53:17 | 0:53:21 | |
Well, we don't know over a long period of time. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
But we know over about 18 months after the initial reform. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:27 | |
If you work, chances are, you get out of poverty within a couple of years. | 0:53:27 | 0:53:32 | |
You don't know whether they continue to work after 18 months. | 0:53:32 | 0:53:35 | |
No, and the reason they don't continue work is often | 0:53:35 | 0:53:38 | |
the reason they went on welfare. | 0:53:38 | 0:53:40 | |
Namely they are not organised enough to work consistently. | 0:53:40 | 0:53:43 | |
So, if you're a British Politician bent on serious reform of | 0:53:52 | 0:53:57 | |
the Welfare State and you've come here to America | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
to see what they've done, | 0:54:00 | 0:54:02 | |
what lessons do you take back with you? | 0:54:02 | 0:54:04 | |
Well, what you learn very quickly indeed is that Workfare is not | 0:54:04 | 0:54:09 | |
the magic bullet that so many people thought it was just a few years ago. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:14 | |
But something has changed. Attitudes have changed. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
There is a growing realisation that if you want a welfare benefit, | 0:54:17 | 0:54:23 | |
you have to work, one way or the other, in return for it. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:28 | |
And it's that sort of attitude change that might be starting here. | 0:54:39 | 0:54:42 | |
I came here to City Gateway in Tower Hamlets, | 0:54:45 | 0:54:48 | |
a charity where they work with young people on benefits, | 0:54:48 | 0:54:51 | |
who are trying to get into work or onto an apprenticeship. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:54 | |
Anyone else who'd like to have a chat about what sort of career | 0:54:54 | 0:54:58 | |
they are gearing themselves up towards? Cameron, do you want to? | 0:54:58 | 0:55:02 | |
I want to start college and start work after that. | 0:55:02 | 0:55:05 | |
Anybody else who is feeling brave? | 0:55:05 | 0:55:07 | |
Be successful at my apprenticeship, keep the placement. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:10 | |
-What about you? Are you ambitious? -I am, yeah. | 0:55:10 | 0:55:13 | |
For six months I was at home, | 0:55:13 | 0:55:15 | |
then I realised, no, this ain't the right way to life. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
So, I joined City Gateway and, yeah, this is what I want to do now. | 0:55:18 | 0:55:23 | |
These young people volunteered to be here. | 0:55:23 | 0:55:27 | |
What's driving many is | 0:55:27 | 0:55:28 | |
they don't want to be like their parents. They want to work. | 0:55:28 | 0:55:31 | |
Can I just ask about your parents? | 0:55:31 | 0:55:34 | |
Because one of the problems with people being, | 0:55:34 | 0:55:36 | |
younger people being out of work, | 0:55:36 | 0:55:38 | |
is partly because their parents themselves are not in work. | 0:55:38 | 0:55:42 | |
There isn't that sort of tradition of working in the family. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:45 | |
How many of you people, | 0:55:45 | 0:55:46 | |
how many of your parents are in work, in proper jobs at the moment? | 0:55:46 | 0:55:51 | |
Oh, my God! | 0:55:53 | 0:55:54 | |
So, mostly your parents are not in work? Yeah. | 0:55:56 | 0:55:59 | |
My mum's on maternity leave at the moment. | 0:55:59 | 0:56:01 | |
So she isn't actually working. | 0:56:01 | 0:56:03 | |
And your father? | 0:56:03 | 0:56:04 | |
-He don't work, he never has worked. -He never has worked? | 0:56:04 | 0:56:07 | |
No, that's his life preference. | 0:56:07 | 0:56:09 | |
If that's how he wants to live, | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
let him live like that, but I am here to live my own life. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:14 | |
They think training doesn't get you nowhere. | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
Your parents think training doesn't get you anywhere? | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 | |
You didn't look at your parents and think, | 0:56:19 | 0:56:21 | |
they don't work, so I guess I don't need to work? | 0:56:21 | 0:56:23 | |
Nah, I want to do something with my life. | 0:56:23 | 0:56:27 | |
I tell them, I want to change my life. | 0:56:27 | 0:56:29 | |
-So you look at them and think I want to be different from them? -Yeah. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
Well, good luck to you. | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
You, you don't want to? | 0:56:36 | 0:56:38 | |
It's encouraging that these young people who had the worst possible | 0:56:38 | 0:56:41 | |
start in life appear not to have the sense of entitlement | 0:56:41 | 0:56:44 | |
that you might expect of people in their circumstances. | 0:56:44 | 0:56:48 | |
But the hard reality is that they seem to be the exception. | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
That sense of entitlement has grown and the public doesn't like it. | 0:56:52 | 0:56:56 | |
And politicians respond to the public mood. | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
In the many years I've been reporting on politics, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:04 | |
one way or the other, in this country, | 0:57:04 | 0:57:06 | |
I don't think I've ever seen quite such a strong consensus at | 0:57:06 | 0:57:10 | |
the top of the political parties on both sides of the political divide. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:15 | |
That something must be done to reform the benefit system. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:19 | |
You know what your values are, | 0:57:20 | 0:57:23 | |
but they are not the values being rewarded in our benefit system. | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
Welfare began as a lifeline, | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
but for too many it's become a way of life. | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
We can never protect and renew it if people believe it's just not fair. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:37 | |
Generation after generation in the cycle of dependency | 0:57:37 | 0:57:41 | |
and we are determined to break it. | 0:57:41 | 0:57:43 | |
So what is the future Welfare State for this country? | 0:57:43 | 0:57:47 | |
Another Welfare revolution? | 0:57:47 | 0:57:50 | |
Well, maybe, and this one if it does gather momentum, | 0:57:50 | 0:57:54 | |
will edge us back towards the original Beveridge vision. | 0:57:54 | 0:58:00 | |
And that would mean that the age of entitlement has ended. | 0:58:00 | 0:58:04 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:58:12 | 0:58:15 | |
E-mail [email protected] | 0:58:15 | 0:58:18 |