Quitting the English Defence League: When Tommy Met Mo

CHANTING

We're English till we die!

Tommy Robinson was the founder and leader of the English Defence

League, always in the forefront of their controversial street protests.

I don't care whether you say I'm racist,

I don't care what you say to me, I don't care if you want to kill me.

But then, three weeks ago, he suddenly announced he was leaving.

I'm asking all my supporters who have followed me

to put faith in the decision we are making and follow.

He jumped ship to Quilliam, a counter-extremism think tank

led by former Islamic extremist Maajid Nawaz.

This is a wonderfully courageous and brave thing to do.

But what made Tommy go from saying this...

Islam is not a religion of peace, Islam is fascist

and it is violent and this is the end!

..to saying this?

I don't believe street protest is the way forward.

To solve the problem, we need the support

and we need to work with Muslims in this country.

Tonight we tell the full story behind Tommy Robinson's

resignation. How his journey with Mo Ansar, the man who tried to

get the EDL banned,

led to him quitting the organisation he founded.

We need to change somehow, we do need to change.

..and brought him together with Maajid Nawaz.

We need to win the hearts and minds of the people.

Is this the end of the EDL?

And is it the beginning of a new Tommy Robinson or just

a change of tactics?

In April 2012, Tommy Robinson and Mo Ansar took part in the BBC

programme The Big Questions to debate far right extremism.

You can't call everyone who opposes anything to do with Islam far

right, it's not right.

You are bedfellows with people who are saying

that we want to outlaw the Koran, we want to outlaw the hijab, we want to

deport Muslims from Europe.

You are trying to become a soft face,

which is appeasing hatred against Muslims and Islamophobia.

Islam is failing to integrate.

Islam needs to evolve, it needs to modernise.

Then, Mo Ansar, the man who had tried to get the EDL banned,

issued a surprising invitation.

Tommy, if you and your family ever want to come

and meet my family for dinner, you are more than welcome.

This simple gesture of friendship led to Tommy

and Mo agreeing to go on a journey together around British Islam.

I had in my mind before we started the programme that,

if the opportunity came up, that I would want to try

and reach out to him somehow,

I wanted to try and connect with him, just to try and educate him.

I call him "no answer" rather than Mo Ansar...

HE LAUGHS

..cos he doesn't seem to have an answer to a lot of the issues

but at the same time, I warm to him when I meet him.

It's a journey where Mo took a huge risk attending an EDL rally.

I'm incredibly nervous being here.

Tommy paid his first visit to a mosque.

This is Mohammed Ansar, everybody. Say hello.

Mo became the first Muslim ever to address the EDL.

..slaves.

And Tommy was confronted by his critics.

Where does it say sexual slaves, where does it say sexual slaves?

And discovered an unlikely ally over young girls covering up their hair.

As a Muslim women, I feel uncomfortable

when I see young girls, even if they're seven.

I see so many of them.

Because I do think it is about being grown-up.

Tommy's personal story began in Luton, his home town,

and one of the few places in Britain where Christians are a minority.

Living here shaped his view of Islam.

Back in 2009, a group of Islamic extremists staged a protest in

Luton against a parade of soldiers returning home from Afghanistan.

Tommy was then 26 and running a plumbing business.

The demonstration prompted him set up the English Defence League/

This is the fourth time in four years

we have tried to enter Tower Hamlets.

'The English Defence League is the bravest people in this country.'

People that are not afraid of political correctness,

not afraid of coming under attack, not afraid of being smeared

and having their reputation dragged through the mud and willing to stand

up and give a voice to people who don't have a voice in this country.

CHANTING

But the EDL quickly developed a reputation for violence,

racism and Islamophobia.

The movement grew and Tommy became the unlikely spokesman

and hero for people who shared in his concerns about Islam in Britain.

Tommy may have been a hero to the EDL

but to the wider world he was a pariah.

There were counter demonstrations from groups

like Unite Against Fascism at every EDL rally.

Mainstream politicians refused to engage with him.

And in November 2011, Mo Ansar, a diversity manager

and Muslim commentator,

set up an online petition calling for the EDL to be banned.

I think the English Defence League are a real menace to society.

I think they are a threat.

I think the Government has been complacent in addressing the issues.

The Government has been really clear.

They have said if we have groups that foment hatred or

that are contrary to the public good or public safety,

they will take steps to ban them.

EDL! EDL!

So in October 2012,

when Tommy was held on remand in prison his critics were delighted.

They believed it would weaken the EDL.

Alone for three months in a cell,

Tommy began to face up to the real motives of some EDL supporters.

I have battled for four years to keep certain elements

out of this movement, to keep

it down the path we want to take it down, and I have seen they have been

welcomed back. They are the Nazis and the fascists who were welcomed back.

Despite this, Tommy continued to lead the EDL and on May 25th,

Tommy and Mo began their journey together at a rally in Newcastle.

Thousands of EDL supporters from all over Britain were out in force.

For Mo Ansar, attending an EDL rally was a very big first step to take.

He was putting himself in real danger.

In a democracy when you are angry and frustrated, you protest,

don't you?

You just vent your frustration in a democracy by using

freedom of assembly, which is what we will be doing today.

If an Englishman commits a crime...

If an Englishman on the march today throws a bottle at the police

or commits a crime or gives a Nazi salute...

That won't happen.

You have said yourself, there is a lot of strange types in the EDL, OK?

Not as many strange types as in Islam.

And if somebody commits a crime today, is it right for us

to blame all English people? Is it right?

It is just a yes or no question, is it right?

If the people pick up a book

and it says throw a bottle at the police officer, when they throw

the bottle at the police officer, of course it is that book's fault.

Do you accept that you are adding to a fear

and hysteria, which is causing attacks on Muslims?

No, I don't, I don't.

On police advice, Mo had to watch from a safe vantage point.

It's frightening scenes outside. Horrifying.

Thousands and thousands of nationalists, angry,

many of them will be drunk, violent, waving flags, hostile, it is

so hostile, it is not safe for me to be out there.

I don't care what you term racist! I don't care what you say to me!

I don't care if you want to kill me, we don't care whatever you say!

We are going to continue to fight it no matter what.

We will defeat Islamism or we will die trying!

Despite the doubts Tommy is now feeling privately

about his more extreme followers, his public face remains hard line.

And he is talking to them about

no more mosques, about stopping immigration, about hardening

in every way their response towards Muslims in this country.

But a more tolerant message, against violence and racism, is there too.

This is not about colour, this is not about race,

this is about an ideology. Now, to defeat this ideology

you won't beat it with punches, kicks, bombs or bullets,

you need to win the hearts and minds of the people

and we're winning the hearts and minds of the people.

CHEERING Through non-violent peaceful protest,

we will win the hearts and minds of the people of this country.

Everyone is welcome in the English Defence League,

all colours and races. God bless.

CHEERING

Despite Tommy's appeal for a more inclusive membership,

Mo is still shocked by scenes of violence at the rally.

Mo asked Tommy for a chance to talk to EDL members directly.

No Muslim had ever asked to address them before.

Tommy set up a meeting in Luton, where it all began.

Mo offered to answer questions about Islam as a religion

and he hopes this will allay their fears about the growing number of British Muslims.

The people who gathered to hear him needed a lot of convincing,

including Kevin Carroll, Tommy's cousin and right-hand man.

"Islam is a religion of peace," you know,

which is the biggest joke of all, really.

You can't implement a 7th-century dogma

into 21st-century western Britain, can't do it.

This country has formed a democracy

and I don't want to revert 1,000 years back to medieval times.

So I'd like to see how he addresses that question.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, we know that's true,

but all the terrorists at the moment are Muslim,

so what does that say to you?

It's an opportunity for him to see that we're not all lunatics.

It is an opportunity to talk to him, to ask him questions.

I've been spending quite a bit of time with him.

I like him, but I don't like the ideology he's following,

so I try to separate the two of them.

All right, Mo. Evening, Tommy. I'm all right, you? Good, good.

I respect the fact that you are the first Muslim

that's come in to talk with the English Defence League.

Which is getting somewhere, to listen to people's concerns.

I want you to realise when you meet them, these people don't hate you,

but they are ordinary people who have concerns and fears

about what's happening to their country.

I'm very happy to come here tonight.

I think the most important thing is to open up a dialogue.

This is Mohammed Ansar, everybody. Say hello. Hello. Hi.

I used to be of the strong view

that I thought the English Defence League should be banned.

Over the last couple of years,

I've seen that the EDL have grown in strength,

have grown in numbers and are getting a lot of popular support now

and so it is up to public figures, people like me,

I think also the Government, to engage in what you have to say.

As somebody who was born in this country and is British,

I think I uphold British values. I am also a Muslim.

Islam is not here to take over the country,

Islam is not here to take over the world.

That is not the Islam that I know.

The Islam that I know is one that lives in co-existence,

one that honours and respects British virtues and values.

Does anyone recognise the Islam that Mo is talking about?

No. No. Here's the problem.

Living somewhere like Luton, you are not the face of Islam.

First, concerns about daughters who have married into Muslim families.

We know girls that convert to Islam. It's not the sort of thing we see.

Girls convert and they're not allowed to see their mums and dads.

If there are girls who convert to Islam that are told,

"You cannot meet your family..." Can't be trusted. I know loads of girls.

If that happens, then I will say now clearly,

that is not allowed in Islam.

If the Islamic community want to integrate,

why do you punish your children

if they go with somebody from a different religion?

If we think all Muslims are one monolithic block, if we think that

when one Muslim does something wrong that reflects on all the community,

Muslims are not one tribe,

they are not one group of people who think the same,

they think differently, they act differently.

So you can't defend Islam, then? Well, Islam and Muslims are two...

You can defend YOUR Islam, but nobody else's.

But Islam and Muslims are two separate things.

I can't look at the actions of a Christian priest

and condemn all of Christianity for it.

And for some, the treatment of gay men in many Islamic countries

was a real concern.

Why is Islam really homophobic?

I've been working for gay rights for the last 15 years,

a lot of people are surprised by that.

One thing Islam regards is equality

and a verse of the Koran says, "Ta'AAlaw ilaa kalimatin sawaaim baynanaa wa baynakum."

It's not some kind of a magic spell.

What it says is, "Come to common terms between us and you."

I've got on my shirt five gay Iranians getting hung for being gay.

There's been... I've got that on my shirt.

Right, and I... "Gay rights under Islam." Right, and I applaud that.

If you're saying homophobia's wrong, Islamic scripture must be wrong

because it promotes homophobia. Islam is not homophobic.

LAUGHTER

Would you guys mind if I took a brief break?

The meeting adjourned to allow Mo to pray.

Mo was pleased. The meeting felt like a good first step.

Not all the audience agreed with him

but he was relieved they had listened to each other.

They were calm, they were listening.

They were very passionate. They had strongly held views

and I think it is the kind of thing we need to do more and more

as that conversation could have gone on for weeks.

I think that went good.

I hope it's changed Mo's perception,

I hope it showed Mo that people have got concerns.

I always felt... I didn't want Mo to come here and feel like

he was in any way picked on because the problem is,

Mo is the first person that's come to talk to the English Defence League.

But others weren't so positive.

He speaks for HIS attitude towards Islam, not what Islam is.

And, as you've heard from the other guys,

they live with the actual Islam.

He's just pandering to the audience,

saying the things that he knows the audience are going to...

And he thinks we're all dimwits, we don't read.

It was Ramadan, so Mo was not able to eat between sunrise and sunset.

Tommy offers to keep him company. How long since you last ate?

You don't look like a man who ain't eaten in 16 hours, Mo!

2.30 in the morning,

and now it's nearly 9.20, so I am going to have a date,

then we'll unpack the goodies and see what food we've got.

I think it's a nice sign for us to be able to come together

to share me breaking the fast, if that's OK with you?

I would love to break the fast with you cos I am actually starving

but if we ate somewhere down the road that done Halal, non-Halal,

then it'd be more suitable for me. OK, all right.

I apologise this time, but maybe next time. Maybe next time.

Despite not breaking bread with Mo, Tommy sums up their meeting

in a light that would surprise his critics

and even some of the supporters of the EDL.

No-one from the English Defence League would care

about a Muslim living their life peacefully, praying,

doing his Ramadan, doing this, doing that, if we didn't see all the hate,

and we didn't see our culture under attack,

we didn't see our existence at threat in this country,

but we do, and that's what Mo has to understand.

Tommy has personal reasons for the way he feels.

His own family lost contact with his cousin 20 years ago.

This girl had become a victim of an Asian on-street gang.

She woke up one day in a flat in Bury Park with at least ten men on her.

Yeah? And then she was found naked, running through the streets

by the call girls, prostitutes on the streets,

and they took her to the police, who took her home.

Then the family locked her in the room

because she was going cold turkey.

Then she climbed out the window to get back to them,

because she needs the drugs, and that's the process.

Now she wears a burka and no-one sees her.

The recent spate of largely Asian gangs

convicted of what has been dubbed "on-street grooming" in Rochdale,

Oxford and Derby has only reinforced Tommy's belief

that the problem stems from their religion,

and they're not isolated cases.

Grooming is most definitely an Islamic problem.

If you look in this country,

it is predominately Pakistani Muslim men doing it.

There is a terrible view in Islam of women,

especially non-Muslim women.

Mo vehemently disagrees.

To him, the fact many on-street groomers were also Muslim

has nothing to do with their crimes.

Tommy arranged for Mo to meet parents in Blackburn

whose daughters had been victims of on-street grooming,

and also to meet professionals working in this field.

For legal reasons, some identities have been disguised.

The problem with the Muslim is, with the Muslim grooming, is it is

all gang grooming, where it seems to be OK to discuss this within

your family and friends and we will all go out to groom together.

Why do you think we categorise paedophiles as white

but we don't look at their religion, but then Asian ones as Muslim,

and we do look at their religion?

Because that is how most of the Asian community categorise themselves.

"We are the Muslim community," you hear them say it all the time.

And I am only focusing on the Muslim grooming gangs

because you are here today to discuss that.

You are not here to discuss the whole problem with paedophilia and grooming.

I'm from WAG - Women Against Grooming.

I have seen a lot of what Islam does...

Sorry, how does Islam do that?

Because the men in that family are using Islam as an excuse to

treat their females in their family like that and that is wrong.

And that's the excuse they always go back to -

"Within our religion, this is what we can do."

I am really, really sick of being told that it doesn't happen

within a Muslim community, because it does.

I accept that we have white men disgustingly going round

grooming little girls that aren't old enough properly to think,

never mind have sex.

But until people in the Muslim community are prepared to say,

"Hang on a minute, this is happening, this does need stopping..."

The problem is across the country, across all communities... It is.

..and if we are going to focus on the problems within

the 3.5 million Muslim community in this country, then we also need to

focus on the other 60 million people who are not in the Muslim community.

Of course we do. Because we are... We want to be one community,

one nation, who are tackling these issues together,

cos they are common issues, they are common problems.

Mo then travelled to meet Tommy across the Pennines, in Bradford,

to talk with others involved in tackling on street grooming.

I think Tommy has a very clear view that this kind of abuse

of children or sex crimes are related to the Muslim community.

And he believes it goes all the way back to the time of Prophet Mohammed.

Two people who risked their reputations to speak out

about Asian on-street grooming were persuaded to talk to Tommy and Mo.

Mohammed Shafiq heads a Muslim youth organisation.

Ann Cryer was Labour MP for Keighley.

Ann tried to help many families whose daughters were

victims of Asian on-street grooming.

Their daughters were 12 and 13-year-olds,

and all of those offenders who were corrupting these girls

were from, I'm afraid, the Pakistani community.

And the reason that I believe - I may be wrong -

but I believe the reason that neither the police nor social

services would touch these cases... I was begging them.

I was round at the police station virtually every week when I came up

to Keighley, and I think it was they were afraid of being called racist.

There is a significant over-representation of Pakistani men

in on-street gang grooming, of which the majority of the girls are white.

We as a community, if you like, have to be honest and open about that.

We've all got a duty to... You're saying what we're saying, but you're OK to say it.

But the difference is, you don't...

You're a heroic moderate for saying it, I'm a far-right hooligan.

Ann Cryer tried but failed to get her local mosque to talk to suspects' families.

I went to a friend of mine who is a local councillor, and he happened

to be a Muslim, and therefore he was able to represent me to the elders,

because I felt it was a good move to try and get those elders involved.

Yeah, it was a good move. I hoped that I would be able to persuade the elders to go

knocking on doors and say to them, "This behaviour is

"un-Islamic and I want it to stop, because I am going to

"tell the whole community about you and what you're doing if you don't."

Now, they weren't prepared to do that.

Acknowledging the problem with the community's response to the crimes is one thing,

introducing a possible reason linked their faith is quite another.

There is a possibility for me that this is linked to Islam.

Maybe it is not, but maybe it is. When you have in the Koran...

How can you say it is linked to Islam? On what basis?

What is your evidence? OK.

The Koran, you can take sexual slaves... I mean... You can take sexual slaves.

Read it to me, where it says you can take non-Muslim

women as sexual slaves. OK, I will.

I don't think you can find it.

MO: It is nice to see you are reading the Koran, I have to say.

It is obviously not making a difference, is it? You're still distorting it

No, I am not distorting it, I am reading it.

"If you fear you will not deal justly with the orphan girls,

"then marry those that please you of other women, two, three or four.

"If you fear that will not be just,

"then take what your right arm possesses, ie, slaves."

Where does it say "sexual slaves"? Slaves, you can take....

Where does it say sexual slaves? Where does it say sexual slaves? Don't distort it!

Maybe it's not me misrepresenting it,

maybe it's the groomers misrepresenting this!

Would we all agree that these girls who are being

targeted by these gangs are slaves, being treated like slaves? Oh!

Can we agree?

I think that is a very unhelpful way of tackling the issue.

They are being treated like slaves and we have chapters in here that tells them it is OK to take

non-Muslim women as slaves, and to me that needs to be explored. Tommy...

That is not right. It says slaves.

Only a few weeks ago,

we saw imams, over 500 mosques, deliver a sermon against grooming.

That's good.

In 2002, when it started, when you dealt with that very first case here

in Keighley, they got four years. Now they are getting life sentences.

Do you think it has got anything to do with the ideology behind

the fact that under sharia, as soon as a girl starts puberty, she is fair game, yeah? No.

Absolutely not. Yes, it is!

A Muslim man, for example, cannot have sex outside of marriage,

cannot marry somebody who is not a consenting adult, and can certainly

not commit any of these offences. Islam is utterly, utterly against

grooming, child abuse, any form of abuse against any individual.

Like Tommy, Ann thinks the Muslim community could have done

much more to tackle the groomers.

To Mo, Tommy continually tries to unfairly blame

the religion of Islam for criminal acts.

Tommy has tried to create a link between some theological

aspects and linking them with paedophilia. And that is wrong.

Whatever sources he is using, they are deeply flawed.

To Tommy, the sacred texts seem to provide an excuse.

Everybody wants to shout down my points

but they can't tackle the points.

It says in the Koran that you can take non-Muslim women as slaves.

What do they do with slaves?

If it's in there, we must explore that avenue.

A meeting was set up in London at the end of August with two

experts on the Koran.

This is the first time Tommy would meet someone from Quilliam,

a counter-extremism think tank.

Dr Usama Hasan, from Quilliam, is a scientist and Islamic scholar,

whilst historian Tom Holland has written ground-breaking

books on the birth of Islam.

Tommy used this opportunity to go straight

to his belief that it is Islamic texts

that are to blame for gang abuse of young girls.

Outside of your four wives, "you can take whatever your right arm possesses".

Now how do we understand that? That will refer to slavery.

Concubines. Concubine, which included sexual slavery. Now that was part of ancient culture.

Tommy's delighted they seem to agree with his position.

All the dos and don'ts in the Koran are all conditioned

by principles of justice, mercy, the common good,

public welfare, etc, and they are all actually liable to change.

Islam does face a problem in that the holy scriptures derive from

a very remote period. The Koran, the Hadiths, classical jurisprudence

take for granted the existence of slavery.

In their time. Absolutely but there is then the problem

in a society that takes for granted that slavery is wrong,

how do you then square that with the fact in the Bible, in the Koran,

slavery seems to be taken for granted?

Why does God not issue a firm prohibition?

The situation is very similar to women actually,

if you read the Koran now, some of the verses relating to women

seem to discriminate against women.

But for that time,

they actually were revolutionary and they really improved women's rights.

It needs to be continued. Which is precisely why I think it's vital

to historicise the Koran... Yes.

..and to work out where these commentaries come from,

to situate them in a particular place and time.

Again, Tommy feels the learned men are expressing what he thinks too

but Mo doesn't.

Maybe what's going on here is that the core principles within the Koran,

the principles of brotherhood and of justice,

they predominate, they are eternal.

Maybe the specific things - the details about slavery,

the commands within some of the hadiths to kill apostates,

to kill homosexuals,

they are the ones that can be phased out

because humanity has moved on.

That seems to me the way ahead for a British form of Islam to emerge.

I believe that we need to reform the book.

And certain verses of hate

and certain verses that glorify murder and rape

need to be taken out, or addressed, or warnings put in,

or something to say that this is no longer taught in British Islam.

If one of my children came home with a schoolbook,

a reading book from school,

and they were unable to read or understand parts of the book,

I don't rip out the pages and put them to one side.

I'd say, "Let's educate better."

People are dying, Mo, people are dying.

It's not like when your daughter comes home with a schoolbook.

I agree with you that Muslims in this country

certainly have to step up the efforts

against the extremists and the reformers.

That is something I've tried to do

and colleagues of mine have tried to do.

We've faced death threats and intimidation

for what we are saying, also.

And that does need to be addressed, you know? How we... How...

We're looking, by the way, at a very small number of verses

which are what you might call "problematic", in our times.

The vast majority of the Koran is about the wonders of God,

about the wonders of creation.

I believe that there needs to be immense pressure

put on the Islamic community of this country

to realise how we feel in our country.

You need to make the distinction

between Muslims that need reformation

and Islam as a theology and Islam as a way of life

and a value system, which I don't think does need reform.

TOM: That's where I think I disagree.

Because I think that Islam,

like any institutionalised religion in this country,

is subject to incredible pressures.

And those pressures are partly to do with historical research.

It changed the way Christians understand their faith.

I'm sure it will change the way Muslims understand their faith -

the impact of science, an increased understanding of the universe.

And above all, people of all religions in Britain

are now living in an incredibly liberal society

and there's been an absolute revolution

in the understanding of, say, the status of women,

the status of homosexuality.

I have no doubt that the form of Islam that emerges from this,

it's kind of weathering waves beating against it,

will be a much less literalist, a much less fundamentalist Islam.

MO: I speak often about an enlightened, progressive,

modern British context for Islam and I think we are on that journey.

We're certainly not there, we're on that journey.

Tommy's in a hurry for us to get there quickly...

Hurry up, lads. ..but I think we have... Sort it out. These things take time.

These things take time.

Tommy now held Usama Hasan in great esteem.

He seems like a good guy.

I was doing a lot of reading on him - really outspoken against extremism.

I want them to bring their ideology forward,

and I keep saying it's not down to us to define a British Islam,

it's down to them. It's down to the Muslims in this country.

Yet just a week later, Tommy is back on the streets,

leading an EDL march into one of London's most Muslim areas -

Tower Hamlets.

There is no such thing in this country as a Muslim area.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE There is no such thing.

The rhetoric was anti-Muslim and there was no sign

he had any doubts about the power of on-street protest,

as he later claimed.

Do I want to come out of here and keep shouting on street corners?

And "us and them" and kicking off?

It's not what I want.

I want what is right for my kids and what's right for everyone's kids

and that is to bring dialogue.

I'm not saying we're going to agree on everything,

but this is about working out. This is a slow process.

But it's about sitting down and working out where we go from here.

Islam is one of the few religions

whose followers may be clearly recognised by what they wear.

And in recent years, more British Muslims have felt free

to present themselves in ways abandoned by their parents

when they came to Britain a generation or two ago.

As Muslims have come here and become more educated,

the younger generation starts asking questions -

"Who am I? What am I about? Where do I come from?

"What do I believe?"

And so maybe 20 or 30 years ago,

we would have seen fewer beards and fewer headscarves.

But increasingly, as Muslims feel closer

and stronger in their identity,

I think people like Tommy have seen that

and have become scared.

And it's nothing to be scared of, the world's a big place.

Muslims see wearing these clothes as self-expression.

But some critics, including Tommy,

see it as Islamic repression, especially of women.

Only last month, a student petition with 8,000 signatures

forced Birmingham Metropolitan College

to lift its ban on face veils.

And in London, a row erupted when a judge ruled

a female defendant had to remove her veil when giving evidence.

So Mo has arranged for Tommy to meet a leading female Muslim politician,

the former leader of the Respect Party, Salma Yaqoob,

to discuss the issue of dress.

Is it a religious need to wear a burqa?

There's an emphasis on modesty

but people interpret that in many different ways.

You can see for yourself.

Some Muslim women cover their hair, some don't.

Some cover their face, most don't.

It is a tiny minority who do.

I personally don't, as you can see,

but I would not want to impose my views on anybody else.

I think the vast majority of people in this country

would want the burqa banned.

There could be anybody under that burqa, walking down the street.

What's the point in having CCTV?

The burqa is a security risk.

Again, I think you're very good at this,

in terms of trying to smear and merge two very different issues.

I believe that women should be allowed to cover what they want.

I believe that women should be allowed to not cover what they want.

It shouldn't be up to men or a state.

Why do Muslim women cover their hair?

It's the same in the Judaeo-Christian tradition

where there's been an encouragement of modesty.

And so it's seen as that.

Statues of Mary, you'll see that she's covered from head to toe.

I wear a wedding ring. It's a signal.

And that's what the hijab is about.

It's saying that I don't interact beyond a certain boundary

when I mix with other guys.

When you say it's for modesty and not to feel, sorry, to let men know

and things like that - I get all that, yeah.

But when we have seven-year-old children wearing hijabs,

that's when I'm like,

"Well, what's the reason why she's covering her hair, then?"

Don't parents have the right to bring their children up

in their religious tradition?

Many Muslim women, that I speak to, say...

And my wife will say the same and my daughters,

who sometimes wear it, sometimes don't.

..they cover their hair, not only as a sign of modesty

but also they want to identify themselves.

It's part of their identity.

I mean, I, as a Muslim women,

feel uncomfortable when I see young girls.

You know, even, if they're seven. I see so many of them.

Because I do think it's about being grown-up, right. Yeah, so do I.

And so, that for me is about parenting.

And you can see there'll be different views amongst parents,

how they do things.

To Mo, dress is about displaying your faith.

To Salma, it's a choice about modesty for grown women.

For Tommy, accepting Salma's view is a big step.

At this moment, to the outside world Tommy is defined

as the leader of the street-fighting, Islamophobic EDL.

But privately, he is visiting the Aisha Mosque in Walsall with Mo.

A few months earlier, it was attacked with a home-made bomb

and initially the EDL was blamed.

It was quickly proved that there was no link to the EDL.

This is the first time Tommy has ever entered a mosque.

To some of his followers, this would be unthinkable and Tommy too

still has misgivings about the role of mosques in Britain.

I think a mosque is a command and control centre,

I think the last thing they do in there is pray.

I don't want any more mosques built

because I believe we are adding to the problem.

When Islam integrates and assimilates in the same way

every other ideology and religion has,

then they can build more mosques.

We will take our shoes off here and we put them on here

and then we go through. No problem.

Mo took Tommy upstairs to watch the afternoon prayers.

Most of the men below were completely unaware

the leader of the English Defence League was in their midst.

Tommy thinks it's wrong that women have to pray in a separate area,

behind the men.

Once prayers were over, Mo took Tommy into the musalla,

or prayer room.

With no over-seeing body running British Islam,

Tommy questioned how mosques are able to combat extremist beliefs.

Say there is a local loony Islamist who is a potential terrorist.

Say for example, the lads who tried to blow the English Defence League up.

One of them worked in a mosque, he was the youth leader in a mosque.

So how come he wasn't spotted?

If you have a congregation here,

and the overwhelming majority will regulate what goes on in mosques.

The committee, the congregation will hear what is said

and they are very much self-policing.

Not one mosque has reported one extremist.

One of Britain's leading Muslim scholars,

Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra, was keen to meet Tommy.

He was joined by Imam Shay, who leads this congregation.

All right, lads. How are you? Doing all right. Nice to meet you.

Hi, Tommy. Welcome. Nice to meet you.

This is our Imam. He has a gift for you.

A present? Religious, cultural.

I've got one of these you know, from an Islamic outreach centre.

My daughter is five years old and she come home and said,

"Mum, do you go to the mosque?"

MY daughter. "Do you go to the mosque?"

It's a special place where people pray.

Personally, I am uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable.

It's so important for them to learn about Christians, about Jews,

Hindus, and everybody else, otherwise they will grow up

not appreciating the good that all these different religions have.

Tommy wanted Shaykh Mogra to explain how British rights

and values are upheld when they clash with fundamentalist ideas.

Every mosque I look at, I can go on and I can find a homophobic,

anti-Semitic preacher who will come into this country and give a sermon.

And they should be stopped, they should be stopped,

Do you stand for gay people's rights? Yes.

You stand for gay marriage?

If the two individuals who are of

the same sex want to be married

and they go for a civil partnership or marriage, whatever it is,

if it is provided within the constitution,

within the legal systems of our country, they are entitled to it.

To be a good Muslim, I first have to be a good human being,

before anything.

I disagree with a lot of your views, but I respect you as a human being.

I cannot harm you, I am not allowed, it's forbidden.

Well, I wish everyone felt like that because all I get is death threats,

people want to smash my face in, murder my kids, murder my wife.

Please don't measure Islam by the behaviour of some.

Measure Islam by godly, peaceful people.

There are two million of us in this country.

There are six million of you in this country.

OK, six million, but you haven't received six million death threats,

you might have received...

To be honest, for every death threat I get I meet a great Muslim.

When I'm walking around in the town centre,

I have Muslims come up to me and they're very peaceful.

Tommy is so surprised by Shaykh Mogra's views

he raises doubts that he's typical.

I've read articles on yourself today that say you're a non-Muslim.

Muslims that say, because of your beliefs,

you are an infidel.

But God is the judge.

I am not worried about what people say about me.

I have to stand before God, and answer for my actions.

I try my best to be a good human being, to be a good Muslim,

disagreeing with you but respecting you because you are God's creation.

Ibrahim Mogra believes extending the hand of friendship to Tommy

comes directly from Islamic belief.

The Koran tells me to dialogue with people,

especially people that I disagree with.

And it promises that you might be surprised, pleasantly,

that you turn out to become good friends.

So we have to talk, we must dialogue.

We disagree with the views of the EDL,

I totally oppose their racism

and their anti-Muslim and anti-Islam stance,

but that doesn't mean I should shun them.

It means I should reach out to them and help them understand

what the real Islam is, and what real Muslims are like.

And hopefully they will be forced to rethink their strategy.

Mo and Tommy rounded off their visit in the family area.

The women had prepared a feast to welcome their guests.

It smells good. Chicken korma?

You can go and sit down and have some food. I'm all right.

Eating their Halal food on camera was still a step too far for Tommy,

but he's certainly warming to them.

I feel awkward, not eating.

Why would I have a problem with those sort of people,

do you know what I mean? But at the same time,

we have to keep this country as a Christian country.

To me, it is being overtaken.

When does diversity and tolerance become takeover?

That is what I see.

Early October, and the next stage in Tommy and Mo's journey

is with Quilliam, a counter-extremism think-tank

named after one of Britain's first converts to Islam, William Quilliam.

Maajid Nawaz set it up in 2007.

Originally Quilliam was funded under Labour's PREVENT strategy,

a policy deeply resented by many Muslims.

Maajid had been an Islamist for 13 years,

and recruited for Hizb-ut-Tahrir,

campaigners for an Islamic caliphate.

Imprisoned for political activity in Egypt for five years,

after his release, he rejected Islamism

and became a very vocal counter-extremist.

The EDL and far right extremist groups believe

there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

They believe that all Muslims who pretend to be moderate

say one thing in public and another in private.

Having researched Quilliam,

Tommy was looking forward to meeting Maajid

but because he'd been selected to stand for Parliament,

on the day Maajid refused to sit down with Tommy.

But he was keen to challenge Mo.

Maajid revealed the deep divisions between him and Mo

on how to interpret Sharia law.

Has there been any evolution in your own thinking

as a result of your interactions with Tommy?

I think not particularly. I think I come from a very reasonable place.

If your views haven't changed then I assume,

if I may, that your perspective on say, the Koran says...

HE SPEAKS ARABIC

"The male and female thief, cut their hands off."

Would you agree with chopping off someone's hand as a punishment for theft?

I don't agree with chopping hands off as a punishment for theft.

If an Islamic state existed, should it chop off someone's hand

for theft if the Sharia conditions are met?

Please, yes or no, yes or no, yes or no, answer that? Look...

I will tell you my answer, no. What's yours?

On some of my theological views I'm clear,

on other theological views, I would like to hear what the consensus of

the scholars would be, and on other theological views I am not made up.

If one were to ask me on my views on stoning someone to death,

whether now or in a hypothetical ideal Islamic state,

I don't think it is morally justifiable to defer the answer

and say I'm not sure whether someone should be stoned to death or not,

that is morally reprehensible.

Hearing how Maajid argued so vehemently against Mo

about basic human rights was a revelation to Tommy.

I didn't think a Muslim would confront Mo Ansar, I thought

Mo Ansar was being built as the acceptable face of Islam

and that is everything that I think is wrong.

So when I saw this and read more about Quilliam

and I looked at what Quilliam has done, they have actually brought change,

which is what I want to do, I want to tackle Islamist extremism,

I want to tackle Neo Nazi extremism.

They are opposite sides of the same coin.

Straight after Maajid and Mo's heated conversation,

Tommy and Mo had to meet a group of Muslims at a London club.

Some were Quilliam staff, including Usama Hasan,

the Koranic expert, others were from other Muslim organisations.

All shared concerns about Tommy and the EDL and were keen to know

whether his journey with Mo had changed him.

What they heard was a Tommy clearly realising that there were

Muslims he could reach out to.

I don't hate Muslims.

When I look nationally, there are 4 or 5 million Muslims in this country,

they are not going to pack up and leave tomorrow.

What we have to reach out for is reformist and true moderate Muslims.

Nobody is denying your right to protest,

nobody is denying your right to criticise.

I think it's just the tactics in

the way it comes across and there are some

unsavoury characters within your organisation

that turn up to protest

and they have those banners,

and they have those things and the slogans.

I have known that deep down for two years,

thinking, we need to change somehow, we do need to change.

The assembled Muslims could see this was a big admission for Tommy to make.

For most of them, this was the first time

they learned that he harboured any doubts at all.

We do have, we, the British Muslim communities,

have a lot of work to do.

There is no doubt about that. We have a lot of issues that are still being

brushed under the carpet, some of which you have already spoken about.

I am part of your culture, I am part of your tradition and I

absolutely love the country that I live in.

So I absolutely agree with you, I think

the Muslim community has not been at the forefront of change.

We have not honoured the precepts of Islam, which actually have

so much to do with British culture.

The problem in this country is extremist Islam

and the English Defence League are a symptom of that problem.

The answer is to reform.

Reform Islam or Muslims

Both. How do you reform Islam?

By taking out the hate.

The Koran should be reformed in the same way the Bible was.

You are just going to wind up all the Muslims who would have given

you support, because I have been sitting here for the past hour-and-a-half

thinking that I agree with so much that you say, but

then you end with that, reform the Koran, now you have got me furious.

Tommy has gone too far for some, but not for Dr Hasan from Quilliam.

I agree that it is Muslims who have to engage in reform.

I have found through experience

it is very difficult.

After serving as an imam for over 25 years,

when I tried to raise difficult questions at my own mosque,

I was booted out and received death threats for it.

The meeting ends on a high.

There was consensus for change even if not on the methods.

Mo is keen to reflect on the changes he has experienced

since he began his journey with Tommy.

I think Tommy has opened my eyes to a number of things, I think

the first of those things is there is a lot of genuine fear, hostility,

frustration and anger, amongst the white non-Muslim majority within

this country and they have real questions which we have to address.

And the day with Quilliam had even more of an impact on Tommy.

To be honest, some of the lads, I have read a lot about Quilliam,

massively impressed, and although your man Maajid didn't want

to sit and talk to me, they are the Muslims I see as shaping the future

for Islam in Britain. We just have to look at it realistically.

Muslims are not going to leave Britain, they are here, so we have to

make the best of the situation and the best of the situation is finding

the really good ones and the really moderate ones and pushing them

to the forefront and making sure they are the ones that are heard.

Away from the cameras, Tommy reached out to Maajid.

In a series of telephone calls

and secret meetings they began to believe they could work together.

So then they discussed the unthinkable.

Tommy to quit the EDL and work with Quilliam.

Maajid knew from his own experience of leaving Hizb-ut-Tehrir,

that this was a very difficult decision for Tommy.

This isn't about publicity. Both of us have sacrificed to be in this position but both of us

passionately believe in an inclusive united Britain where Muslims

and non Muslims can all live together in peace and harmony.

One week later, the world's media assembled in Bloomsbury to question

him about why he was leaving the EDL to join forces with a leading Muslim

think-tank. Mo, having seen the announcement on Twitter,

cancelled everything and hurried up from Hampshire to be there too.

Naturally there are going to be lot of people who will be

sceptical about Quilliam and Tommy working together.

Only recently we've seen Tommy's behaviour has been less than noble

and there are going to be questions raised about

if this is a tactical move.

Is this a cynical ploy to put himself forward

in the eyes of the public or is this a genuine attempt?

But Mo was kept waiting.

We are allowing nobody in till six o'clock, sorry.

And once he'd gained access with the crew, all were thrown out.

Tommy texted to explain.

He did not want Mo claiming any credit for this momentous decision.

I am really disappointed with how things have turned out.

I have spent 18 months talking to Tommy

and going on a journey to learn about Islam, to extend a hand

and I thought it was important to develop a dialogue.

Part of asking the English Defence League to put down their hate and prejudice

was about having dialogue and today it has fallen flat on its face.

And Mo wasn't the only one to feel rejected by Tommy.

In South London, a group of EDL organisers

and supporters gathered over a drink.

One was unwilling to show his face.

People are just so stunned.

Totally betrayed, totally betrayed, I felt like someone had

ripped my heart out today and that is being serious.

We have been close to Tommy the last nine months.

I just couldn't believe it.

I am quite surprised they chose Quilliam - bearing in mind

Quilliam's history and the people behind Quilliam - which are Islamic

extremists themselves.

Tommy's choices of walking away

and getting back into mainstream life are very limited.

He's always going to be known as Tommy Robinson the guy that run the EDL.

The EDL will carry on as it is.

Only two down, isn't it? Tommy and Kevin Carroll were only the face of the EDL.

The people out on streets are the EDL, not Tommy and Kevin Carroll.

Seven years ago, Maajid Nawaz turned away from Islamic extremism, founded

Quilliam and built it into a respected organisation.

Tommy has now chosen to follow a similar path, to reject the often

violent actions of some EDL supporters and to work with Quilliam

on a new way to tackle what he sees is an Islamist problem in Britain.

Both Tommy and Maajid know it's a risk for them personally

and for what they believe in.

Only time will tell how successful this is, but I genuinely hope this will work out.

For me last night, it was either the end

and everything is going to come crashing down around me, or it

was the beginning of a new era. And I am positive and I believe this is

definitely a step forward, I believe it is beneficial for all communities

and I believe there is nothing more powerful than working together.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd