Wakefield Cathedrals

WINDSCREEN WIPERS SQUEAK

"Cathedrals - luxury liners laden with souls

"holding to the east their hulls of stone."

The 20th-century poet WH Auden's description.

They define our cities, stud our landscape,

but what are cathedrals for?

What purpose do they serve?

Are they meeting places between Heaven and Earth?

Timeless containers of sacred space?

Or empty shells, nothing more than feats of engineering -

architecture but essentially relics,

frosty anachronisms in a secular world?

This film is about Wakefield Cathedral in West Yorkshire.

When I started filming here in November 2012,

the cathedral was facing uncertain times.

A proposed reorganisation of church boundaries was causing

anxiety about the cathedral's future,

calling into question the very existence of Wakefield diocese

And all this just as it moved towards completion of a major

year-long renovation project,

remodelling the luxury liner for the 21st century.

With four months of the project to go,

the cathedral's medieval nave was being restored,

whilst a screen split the building in two, allowing the east end

to remain open for the rhythm of cathedral life to continue.

We pray

for the work we can hear going on in our nave,

for a timely end to the project

giving thanks for all those who've contributed to Project 2013.

Look at all this stone that's arrived this morning.

We've had a delivery from the quarry.

Is this the last lot?

I don't know. No, I can't imagine it is the last lot.

Marvellous to see.

Look at this marvellous...streaking in it.

We chose the more expensive stone

because it has a bit of life about it, as you'll see.

We thought although we don't like paying more than

we need to in Yorkshire, this would be with the cathedral

for the next hundred years or so, so it was worth paying a bit more.

Jonathan, what was it like in here before

There were two problems with it before.

The first was it hadn't had a make-over since the 1870s.

So actually, the infrastructure was shot. Do you mean the heating?

The electrics, the heating, the sound system, the alarms..

Everything was on their last.. was on its last legs.

So we needed to sort that out.

But also, we had the pews, which George Gilbert Scott put in.

Lovely pews.

Not fine, but good quality.

And they were marvellous

if you wanted to seat lots of people in rows.

But they were uncomfortable and they allowed no

flexibility at all for anything other than sitting people in rows.

And what we want is a space which we can adapt for worship

but also adapt for everything else we want to use the space for.

So how much have you had to raise for all this? It's about ?3 million.

Total.

Inevitably, as a clergyman, you have certain

pangs of guilt about spending that kind of money on a building.

You know, there are so many other things out there that need money.

And the Gospel's about looking after the poor,

as much as about anything else

You mentioned the Gospels,

so if Jesus was in Wakefield with ?3 million in his pocket,

do you think that he would spend it in the same sort of way?

If he were Dean of Wakefield, I think he might.

'The Cathedral Church of All Saints sits at the heart of Wakefield

'There's been a church here since Anglo-Saxon times,

'but it only became a cathedral 125 years ago.

'Wakefield's population had grown during the Industrial Revolution and

'it was felt that it should become the centre of a new diocese,

'an area supervised by a bishop

'needing his own spiritual headquarters,

'his seat, a cathedral.'

I'm just trying to find images which show the community.

All this is going on display? Um, yes.

But I want to do a media display, rather than just taking photographs

and sticking them up on a board like we have done in the past.

What's that?

This is when the Queen came to hand out Maundy money in 2005.

Certainly an important historical moment for the cathedral.

And they're great cos there's loads of images of people

around the cathedral as well.

Presumably, the whole city turns out for things like this. They do, yes.

It's interesting, when you look at the older photographs.

For example, this is when they opened the extension in 19 5,

the east end of the cathedral.

There were crowds, hundreds deep.

So many people.

I'm not sure if so many people would turn up to see something

as sort of ordinary as an extension being opened on a building now

Do you think people are as aware these days,

or as kind of celebratory of these things as they were?

I would have said no, until we started the renovations

and the number of people that wanted to comment on what

they saw as being their cathedral,

whether they were regular members of the congregation or not, makes me

think that people do have sort of a deep affection for the cathedral,

not necessarily in its religious context, but in its historical

context and the position it takes within the town, definitely.

MUSICIANS WARM UP

MUSICIANS PLAY

Cathedrals are a complex mix of the sacred and the secular.

Places of worship and pilgrimage, but also of enterprise.

Wakefield is the third poorest of the 42 Anglican cathedrals

in England. With no reserves,

a project as costly as the redevelopment of the nave is

dependent on fundraising, with money coming from various sources -

the National Lottery, specialist church funds,

Wakefield City Council, individual donations.

?1 a ticket!

All this has been masterminded by the cathedral's chapter,

its governing body,

headed by the Dean, who is supported by a team of fellow clergymen

and women with arcane titles such as canon missioner.

Together with lay colleagues,

they're tasked with both the mission and the administration

of the cathedral, playing a dual role - priests and project managers.

Here's Michael, carrying stuff

Look. Those steps are not that size.

Aren't they? That's the substructure and they're going to be 300 deep.

So it won't feel like that at all. That's fine.

This is the mock-up of the altar and the ambo.

Is the ambo what I call the lectern? Yes.

The ambo is a place where you proclaim the Word of God,

both the Scriptures, which you read, and you preach.

So it's a combination of the two.

And the aim is to have something that we can move about the space,

so that we've got a flexibility about the way we worship here.

David tells us that until we see them in situ,

we won't be able to tell whether the proportions are right for this

space and you'd rather do this in MDF than in the finished woodwork.

Cos it's cheaper... Oh, are they the samples of the wood? Yes.

How exciting!

Yes. Oh, look at this!

There's the wood.

That's as it is in the drawing

That's oak and bur oak. That's for the... Oh, it's for both.

For both, yeah. This is bigger than the pulpit

HE CHUCKLES

You get up there and you're going to feel empowered.

You're going to want to make a speech straightaway.

Well, put Ted in it first. Friends, Romans...

I don't think it's fair... Countrymen...

It's not fair to judge on your proportions. Lend me your ears. .

It doesn't look a very big altar, does it?

This is the most important thing in this building. Yes.

This is what this church exists for.

But don't you feel that when you're stood there and the other

side of the table is way over there somewhere, does that not...?

But we are...

We are just servants of the Lord, disappearing at the far side.

And this is what matters and this is where the action is

Let us pray.

Almighty God, whose Kingdom is everlasting and power infinite

have mercy upon the whole church

and so rule the heart of thy chosen servant, Elizabeth, our Queen

and Governor, that she,

knowing whose minister she is, may above all things seek thy honour

and glory and that we and all her subjects,

duly considering whose authority she hath, may faithfully serve

honour and humbly obey her, in Thee and for Thee, according to Thy

blessed word and ordinance, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, who with

Thee and the Holy Ghost liveth and reigneth, ever one God,

world without end. Amen.

How many do you get coming to this?

20 to 30, depending on the temperature!

It's not too bad today, really, is it?

Do you think the numbers matter

Do I think the numbers matter?

I think it... I think it's good that people want to come and worship God.

But in a cathedral,

it's not just about people coming to worship God, it is

about the daily offering of the Eucharist of morning prayer,

of evening prayer, at a rhythm on behalf of people,

as well as with people.

And so numbers aren't irrelevant,

but numbers aren't the most relevant thing.

Good morning. Nice to see you.

Good morning.

'125 years since Wakefield Cathedral's foundation, it's a

'very different world.

'Throughout the country, church attendance has declined

'so much so that in 2008,

'the Church of England set up a commission to examine the structure

'of the Church to see what changes might improve its effectiveness

'This Dioceses Commission has concentrated

'especially on Yorkshire

'and has come up with a radical proposal to dissolve three

'of the region's dioceses - Ripon and Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield,

'and to replace them with one super diocese that will be based in Leeds.

'The proposal has been largely well received in two of the dioceses

'but not in Wakefield.'

There's one paragraph I could read to you which incenses me.

We'll do that. Hold on.

One paragraph of the...

Of the report. The proposal. When was the proposal written?

Well, this one came out in October. Why is it taking so long?

Because I have to consult at every turn and come up with this crap

This is the bit that annoys me I'll read you this paragraph.

There's a section in the report entitled Benefits To Mission

and under that, there's a heading for Cathedrals.

"The single new diocese with its three cathedrals..."

And potentially a pro-cathedral in Leeds. Which is?

"..offers an almost unique opportunity within the Church

"to restate the role of cathedrals and explore innovative ways in which

"cathedrals can operate within the diocese, working with parishes,

"civic authorities and local communities

"and ensuring a much closer collaboration in mission-related

"activities than has perhaps been possible or achieved in the past

"for the mutual benefit of all within the diocese."

I have to say, that paragraph really annoyed me when I first read it

And the reason it irritated me

was I think that's exactly what we're trying to do, here in Wakefield

We're trying to explore innovative ways in which we can operate within

the diocese, work with parishes civic authorities,

local communities, ensuring closer collaboration in mission-related

activities - that is exactly the driving force, and for them

to tell us that this

new opportunity of putting three cathedrals together is going

to enable us to do that, that's precisely what we've been doing

but then it jeopardises our theological integrity

and our financial basis...

I found most distressing.

'The Dioceses Commission's plan has proved to be divisive.

'Ripon and Leeds and Bradford feel very differently to Wakefield,

'arguing that a new super diocese based in Leeds will better serve

'the region and give a much-needed boost to the Church in Yorkshire.

'The plan is that the new diocese will keep all

'three of the existing cathedrals,

'but to have three cathedrals in one diocese is uncharted territory

'and for Jonathan,

'this raises fundamental questions about what a cathedral is.

'To explore these issues, the deans of the affected cathedrals have been

'invited by Jonathan to consider the pros and cons of the proposal.

'They've been joined by a former senior civil servant with

'a track record in management change.

'John Tuckett has been appointed to the three dioceses to help

'guide them through the proposed new scheme '

You love a good swap, don't you

Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats.

And what we just want to cover in half an hour

and it's a good timescale to do a swap,

is a number of bullet points around,

and the context we're looking at is the role of cathedrals,

as they are now, and how they might be in a new diocese

So it's not just strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and

threats of the cathedrals as they are now. It's strengths, weaknesses,

opportunities and threats of cathedrals in the new context.

You can go wherever you like, but you'd better tell me

whether it's a strength, weakness, opportunity or a threat.

Start with a strength.

I think it releases pressure on cathedral diaries

because some events will be held

in one cathedral and not the others.

Cathedrals across the country all work with the same basic

self-understanding, that they are...the mother church of the

diocese, the church that provides the diocesan bishop with a seat and which...

..provides a focus for mission and worship throughout that diocese.

That's what they are. They have a role to the diocese

Clearly, some of the bigger cathedrals have a sort of life

all of their own, but it's very clear to me that

when you're a cathedral like Wakefield,

the only reason we are a cathedral is because there's a diocese.

As soon as you put three cathedrals into one diocese,

that whole self-understanding starts to wobble.

My understanding is that each cathedral will

retain its seat for the diocesan bishop,

so it will still have the seat of the bishop in that cathedral

So the bishop has a seat in three cathedrals,

so I don't see that as a weakness.

What the basis for a cathedral being a seat for a diocesan bishop

comes from.

The word. Cathedral. The bishop's seat.

That's what the whole thing is

Is there a theological argument which says a bishop can only

have one seat?

There's a tradition that the bishop has one seat.

And for instance, when in the old days, Bath and Wells shared...

There were two cathedrals, they used to move the seat between the two,

rather than have a seat in each to make it clear that the bishop

has his seat and where his seat is at the moment is the cathedral.

So this is, in the Church of England, a novelty.

But it's breaking a tradition..

What I'm trying to distinguish is, is it the breaking of a tradition,

rather than the breaking of a theological precept?

Ah, but traditional

and theological precepts in the Church tend to blur into each other.

That's one of the difficulties isn't it?

The problem that it gives the wider Church is that

if you take the argument that where you have a cathedral,

that cathedral must be the seat of a diocesan bishop,

you're almost predicating any future diocesan map,

based on where the cathedrals happen to have been built.

Or you get rid of the cathedrals. Or you create cathedrals.

Or you create cathedrals.

But if you take today's context with declining church congregations,

the Church in the state that it s in in the 21st century...

I'm just posing the question -

if a major constraint to dioceses of the future is the historical

places we happened to build cathedrals in up until

the 1200s, is that the most sensible constraint in designing

the church of the future? It's a real issue.

So there's always change.

Do you think that in 50 years' time, any of this will matter?

I often wonder that.

Um...

and I think there is a natural resistance

in the Church of England to change.

I've been pondering recently Jesus,

who it seems to me, in his own day, was...radical.

Pushing for change.

And...challenging the religious people

to renew their thinking.

But I think that the evidence here in Wakefield

is that's what we're trying to do.

We're trying to redefine our thinking, renew our cathedral

and be more exciting, radical, edgy

than we've been before.

What happens behind there, Kevin?

Pardon? What happens behind there?

There's an organ behind there. This is on just to keep all the dust off.

Um...obviously, if it gets dusty inside there,

it'll just cause a mass amount of problems really.

So...we try to keep it covered as best we can.

I don't think it helps that much really.

It's a death trap out here, so watch it.

It's dry, so it should be all right.

Try and stay as much on the dry side as possible.

And definitely hold on, Richard

It gets really bad here with all these trees.

LAUGHTER

Bishop's throne's in here? Yeah

Why's it in here?

Because when they started, um...doing renovation work,

there were just nowhere to store it

because it's quite a substantial big piece.

It's... Back, it must be nearly eight foot tall.

It must be four foot wide and maybe six foot long.

I just wonder if I could...

..sort of pull this out.

That's the groovy cushions that were in it, though.

LAUGHTER

Some old dear probably handmade those.

Can you see that there? This is the very back. You see how tall it is?

Yeah. And then this is your pattern.

And it's like, all patterned like that, all carved.

Basically, with all the work that was going on,

because we were having services in the east end,

there were nowhere for this to go.

Because, like, you probably get ten chairs where that goes.

Probably even more.

And I think bums on seats were more important than just that one chair.

The bishop's still got a chair in there where he can be seated

Does he come much? Does he come to the cathedral a lot?

He does quite a few services on the rota.

He does morning prayer every now and again.

Like big services, ordinations he'll be there.

Because, obviously, he's swearing in priests and stuff.

But, yeah, he comes every now and again.

He's got one of the busiest jobs in the diocese, hasn't he, really?

Yeah. He's a lovely chap, though.

Mm.

Is it his cathedral, or the dean's? It's the dean's.

Don't say I told you!

LAUGHTER

No, it's, er...

I know the bishop's the boss,

but I think Jonathan's the boss of the cathedral. Definitely.

I would imagine him and the bishop have the final say on most things.

I tend to stay out of those sort of...

politics of the Church of England and stuff.

# There's a chill in the air so crisp and so fresh

# That Frosty himself would be proud

# There's a chill everywhere and time's drawing close

# When loved ones and friends gather round

# It's a feeling of joy for every girl, every boy

# Knowing Santa soon will be here... #

HUBBUB

Have you got a cold? I've had one for a fortnight.

Really? And it's...

It's very greedy of you to hang on to it for so long.

I know. But it's been grim, really.

I brought one back from Germany with me.

I've got my Olbas. I put it somewhere.

Very organised. They're my glasses.

Guess what Matt gave me for Christmas.

A chain to go around the neck? No.

He gave me a thing that looked like a sort of...

You know those Easter Island statue things, sculptures? Yes

It's one of those made of wood

He said, "In case you're not clear what it's for,

"it's to stand on the side to put your glasses on

"so when you wonder where you've put them, that's where they are."

Isn't that marvellous!

There's a great joke about, um. .

The bishop's glasses.

I do tend to lose them.

The bishop has a chaplain whose principal responsibility

is the caring of the glasses.

I have been known to wear two pairs at once.

That's also confusing for people.

We were saying recently how much we're missing those nice stripy ones you bought.

Oh! Well! You haven't got them with you?

I've got them with me somewhere I don't know where they are.

Actually, you've just made me think. I'm not sure I've got my glasses.

Well, you're wearing them. They're in my pocket. Let me just show. .

..the dean evidence of these very fine glasses.

The originals, as you know,

are in a coach somewhere between Giant's Causeway and Belfast.

Oh, please do wear them! These were Poundland in Belfast

LAUGHTER

What do you think? They're very Christmassy, aren't they? They are.

CHORAL SINGING

In the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

CONGREGATION: Amen.

I bring you good news of great joy.

CONGREGATION: A Saviour has been born to you. Alleluia!

Unto us, a child is born.

CONGREGATION: Unto us, a Son is given. Alleluia!

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

ALL: Amen.

Is that all right there? Yeah. Help yourself.

I might drink it, actually, otherwise it'll get cold.

Absolutely.

So... Cathedrals, yes. Cathedrals.

I asked Bishop of Wakefield,

what does the Cathedral of Wakefield mean to you?

What part does in play in your. .

in your function here as bishop for the diocese of Wakefield?

Well, um...I think, I think,

in an episcopally ordered church,

cathedrals are a crucial part of what it's all about.

Um...

And, I mean, I come from an odd situation in as much as

not many bishops in the past have come from being deans.

So, um...I suppose I had some sort of experience

of cathedrals in that way.

And I'd also been a residentiary canon.

You were dean at Norwich? I was dean at Norwich. Prior to coming here?

Well, nearly eight years, yes. Right.

What sort of a god is our God?

He's a God who does not stand on his dignity,

but humbles himself.

He comes among us as one of us

He comes where we are.

He doesn't arrive on earth in a rocket surrounded by a huge retinue.

He's born as a tiny, helpless babe

in a dirty and draughty stable

Could the Church function without them, cathedrals?

Why are they so significant? Well...

To a bishop, that you have this place?

Well, because ultimately, um..

And this is, I think,

absolutely essential to a theological understanding

of the Church, um...

the bishop is there as the focus of unity.

If you want to know where and what

and who the Church is in a place,

it is the group of people,

both regular worshippers, but lots more than that,

who look to that bishop as their bishop.

And if that's the case, then their bishop needs some place of focus.

And that's the point of having the chair, the cathedral.

So I do think they're important

And I'd far sooner have more smaller dioceses with their own bishop

and cathedral than great big sprawling ones

that sort of multiply focuses,

both in terms of people and buildings.

I think it makes sense sometimes to share the actual running

and all that sort of stuff across dioceses and boundaries

But don't lose the focus.

FAINT CHORAL SINGING

INSTRUMENTAL

It's an historic moment. This is very significant because ..

this is the bit that's different from before.

This is... The labyrinth is the new bit.

This is us making a difference to the cathedral

for generations to come...

..new opportunities to explore a spiritual journey.

I think this was my idea, the labyrinth.

I'm just trying to remember. I think...

I went to Chartres,

which is where the most famous labyrinth is in Europe,

and came back and thought, we need a labyrinth.

"If Chartres have got one, why can't Wakefield have one" sort of thing.

You've actually used one yourself, have you? I have.

You ponder.

You ponder life and its meaning

I was surprised. I've used one in the open air in Swanwick

And you take it at the pace you want to...

..and you walk forwards...

..and as you come to a turn in the labyrinth...

..you think about turns in your life.

It's odd when you reach the middle.

And you reach the end.

As you can imagine.

Wakefield Cathedral is intending to reopen

on the day before Palm Sunday,

when the renovated nave will be rededicated by the bishop.

Three weeks before that, the Dioceses Commission's proposal

to merge Wakefield diocese with those of Ripon

and Leeds and Bradford will be voted on.

But the implications for cathedrals remain a concern in Wakefield,

so much so that Jonathan has now invited the entire chapters

of the three cathedrals to spend an evening exploring

the merits and demerits of the scheme.

HE TAPS GLASS Can I just...?

I don't think we're all here yet, but I ought to say,

it's nice to see you all, welcome to Wakefield.

I think this is probably a significant moment

for three chapters to meet together,

which doesn't happen very often in the Church of England.

And certainly, they don't very often meet

with a possibility of coming to work together in one diocese.

So it's almost an historic meeting that's taking place tonight.

Is this whole thing quite unprecedented,

the whole notion that they might dissolve a diocese?

Well, there's various talk about ..

HE SIGHS

That's a different question from what I was thinking you were asking

Um... What did you think I was asking

More than one cathedral in a diocese.

The idea of dissolving a diocese ..

I don't know when it last happened,

if it's ever happened. I mean, it must have happened.

Dioceses have changed shape and evolved.

Bits of dioceses have moved,

but I'm not sure I remember the closure of a diocese, as it were,

or the dissolution of it.

Ripon is very rural and Wakefield is much more...urban,

if I might use that word.

But it's very different to Bradford. Very different to Bradford.

I think Bradford is clearly in a particular situation

because of the census results

and this, that and the other for Bradford.

So that might shape you.

And here we are in the city centre in a way that you're not.

So it does give us a distinctive edge.

But all of us are called to be here for whoever wants to come, aren't we?

Cathedrals are success stories

That's true across the country

Jonathan was sitting in this meeting.

But, I mean, the recent research on cathedrals

shows beyond any doubt that we for whatever reason,

we're a success story at the minute.

People somehow seek us out and come because we're open,

because we're there.

And that's something other churches can't provide.

But if funding is cut, we won't be there.

We can't keep our doors open as we do

if we don't have financial resources to do it.

All three of us as cathedrals

rely on funding from the church commissioners to do our job.

We rely on funding for the dean and two canons in each place,

which every cathedral in the country receives,

and we rely, each of us,

on a discretionary grant which comes from the church commissioners

and is targeted at the poorer cathedrals of the country.

Of which you're one?

We are one of the poorest cathedrals in the county. We're not...

Last year, we weren't bottom, we were third from bottom.

The only two that were poorer than us in terms of our general accounts

were Bradford and Leicester.

And your concern is that in the long run,

the funding won't come in for two canons and a dean?

I'm a church commissioner.

And I think it is hard to understand

why the church commissioners

would want to fund three cathedrals in this diocese

and only one in every other diocese of the land.

Opportunities might be created because of what's before us. Yeah.

The opportunities to work more together, to learn from each other,

the stimulus that comes from discussion and debate

with each other, with a wider group of people.

Definite opportunity.

We thought there were definite areas

where we could combine and share resources.

Do we need, actually, three education officers?

Similarly, admin.

I mean, there's bound to be kind of admin economies of scale there.

If we don't have a guarantee from the powers that be

that the three cathedrals will be... continue to be treated

in the same way as other cathedrals

and not put into one pot,

then we would be foolish to vote for this.

Because we're not... We're risking the future.

Certainly here at Wakefield, where we do, I think pretty well,

use our money to employ people

We're not only risking the future of the cathedral,

but we're risking the jobs of a lot of people.

# When I was young, I fell in love

# I asked my sweetheart what lies ahead

# Will we have rainbows day after day?

# Here's what my sweetheart said

# Que sera, sera

# Whatever will be, will be

# The future's not ours to see

# Que sera, sera. #

So...

..coming into a beautiful holy building

is quite interesting, isn't it

It makes you feel a bit different.

It's not like anywhere else.

And this would've been the same for the people

coming into Jerusalem 2,000 years ago, for Jesus and his friends

They would've come from outside into a beautiful holy building

And their holy building's called a temple.

Ours is called a cathedral.

Let us pray to the Father.

ALL: Christ our Lord.

For this diocese of Wakefield..

for this cathedral, its dean and chapter.

For the development, people working to complete that development..

..and for the reopening of the cathedral

and the keeping of Holy Week.

Let us pray to the Father.

ALL: Through Christ our Lord.

The 23rd is the Saturday evening before Palm Sunday. Right.

And...at 5:00, we have the rededication of the nave.

At 4:00, we've invited the grandees to tea, or we are. Right.

So you can come if you want to to tea.

It might be quite good to do that.

And you've got Bishop Ake here haven't you?

He could come to the tea. Well, yes.

There's no greater grandee than a Swedish bishop.

We haven't talked about the dedication of the nave yet

but I think at some point in the service,

we'll have him sprinkle and do whatever.

I think that's sensible. The altar? Well, no.

What we thought about the altar you're with us for... I was hoping...

Ah, but you're with us for Holy Week. Right.

So the next morning, we thought if we put you on to celebrate at 9: 5,

you could consecrate the altar

Yes. With much oil.

With much oil at 9:15. And rags. Yes. Right.

If you're happy to do that? Yes

We'll start outside, as we normally do on Palm Sunday. Yes.

Have the procession in. No donkeys?

We don't have donkeys, not on our new floor.

Then, as soon as we come in, you can consecrate the altar,

and then we'll go into the Passion Narrative. Right.

Because it won't make sense to consecrate it after we've heard. .

I mean, it just will be the wrong flavour, I think. Yes.

Well, also the Passion Narrative brings in a sort of notion

of sacrifice, and altars are about sacrifices. That's right.

It's Johnny with you on a Sunday morning.

The Very Reverend Jonathan Greener, the Dean of Wakefield Cathedral joins us.

An exciting time for the cathedral at the moment. Hugely exciting

You've had the decorators in? Well, they're in at the moment really

We've been shut for over a year

and in, what, ten days' time we'll get our nave back...

This is rather exciting. ..and it looks stunning.

It's another big week for the diocese as a whole with

regards to the reorganisation, and this is the amalgamation of the

three dioceses around West Yorkshire into one big overarching diocese.

Absolutely. I think at the cathedral we're worried about it

because of the funding, partly

We've been guaranteed that the cathedrals will continue to be

funded as they are until 2016.

Well, 2016 isn't long in terms of the kingdom of heaven,

and there's no guarantees about what will come beyond then.

I think the other thing is that one of the difficulties is that we have

to vote next week but the plans aren't fully cooked.

They keep telling us we can decide that once we've voted to go ahead.

Now, Jesus in the Gospels tells us, "If you're going to build a tower,

"make sure you've got the money in place first."

You know, otherwise you're either being foolhardy

or you're being naive, and somehow I think they're saying,

"If you vote for this, all will be well,"

but by that time the Dioceses Commission will have pushed off

to some other part of the country and we'll be left to pick up the mess.

RADIO: Well, John Tuckett is the programme manager for the

reworking of the dioceses. John, welcome to the show.

I mean, there are serious issues, aren't there?

We've heard from, for instance Jonathan Greener this morning, and

one of the big issues that he's worried about is this notion of

funding, and actually you've only worked out the next few years of funding for these...

That's your seat belt.

..after 2016, and in the lifespan of the church, three years is nothing.

Is this just an unfortunate prerequisite of saving money for the church?

No, I don't think it is a question of saving money.

You do talk about saving money don't you, in your proposals?

?800,000 a year, administrative savings of 10% over

a five-year period. There's mention of saving money in this as a reason.

Yes, but it's not saving money that gets clawed back by some central organisation.

It's saving money that can then be reinvested and re-spent

in other ways supporting the Church's mission

throughout the area. It's getting the best value out of the money

that the church has, not about reducing the amount of money

that the church in this area has.

OK, John, the vote is next Saturday,

I guess we'll know the outcome straightaway, will we?

I think each of the synods will vote and we'll know the results

but then let's emphasise this is only one stage in the process.

Of course. This isn't the end of the day, as it were,

whatever happens in the nature of the vote.

OK, John, thanks for spending some time with us today,

enjoy the rest of your weekend Thanks very much.

At the heart of Bradford city, BBC Radio Leeds. Well, there we are.

What do you make of that? Why does he say it's not the end of the day?

Because, of course, the Archbishop of York might decide that this is

an issue of such importance for the national Church,

which I think is the criteria against which he has to decide

that he'll choose to take it to the General Synod in any case.

Do you think it warrants that?

I think that the report makes it clear that this is a local issue.

It's not a scheme for the national Church, we're not setting precedents,

so I wonder how he can possibly choose to exercise that right.

But... But who am I?

The Dean of Wakefield. Absolutely!

The Church of England makes its decisions in synods

church councils that divide into houses,

houses of bishops, clergy, and the laity.

The first step in the decision on the dissolution of the three

Yorkshire dioceses is for each of the affected dioceses to conduct

simultaneously its own synod debate in a vote,

a straightforward for or against the proposal.

The Church of England has to change. Well, I think it has to change

if it is going to be ready for the challenges

which we all know about in the 21st century.

In the time I've been here, for the past 16 years,

we've gone from 200 clergy to 1 0. That's going to continue to decline.

We're told on the mission document that this is

a once-in-a-generation opportunity to renew

and restructure the mission of the Church of England in this area

That's the language of a vacuum cleaner salesman at your back

door and it needs to be treated accordingly.

I've read the papers, I've heard the arguments, I've discussed

with many people what it's all about, and I've prayed a lot.

From my finance perspective, as you'd expect me to speak,

there's no reason for us not to go ahead.

This week, thank God, we get back our cathedral.

The nave is looking fabulous, renewed for our 125th birthday

It's a vision of what can happen to this diocese too.

All of us at the cathedral are committed to working with

the diocese to renew our worship,

our mission, our prayer, our service.

Let us pray for all three dioceses -

Bradford, Ripon and Leeds, and Wakefield.

For...40.

Against...71.

Abstentions...four.

The motion was not approved by Wakefield Diocesan Synod.

There's always a sense of slight sadness

and attrition on these occasions because you hate being divided

over issues as synods, but I think

that we've made, as a synod,

the right decision for our diocese and our cathedral.

It remains to be seen where this process leads at the next stage

Is it all right if I just do a minute? Yes.

You don't mind one minute, do you, Michael? Not at all. Thank you

So the results of the vote are in,

and Wakefield has very much voted against.

You must be very pleased about that?

Interestingly, I'm not very pleased, I'm relieved.

RADIO: The dioceses of Ripon and Leeds both voted in favour of the

move. Nick Baines is the Bishop of Bradford, they voted strongly

in favour. 90 for it, four against it.

Jonathan Greener says it threatens cathedrals.

That has been answered in writing by the Church commissioners.

They will not be treated in any way differently

from any other cathedral.

The fact and the reality is just ignored.

It's not to do with mission,

saying, "We're relieved that it didn't go through."

So what is it to do with then?

Well, my own view, and maybe I shouldn't be saying this,

but my own view is that, erm, you've got to have a vision

for the future that's got to be creative.

And being relieved that something hasn't gone through, but then saying

in the next breath, "But we've got to change",

I just find, you know, well, breathtaking.

Have you got the numbers in your mind from yesterday?

For the other dioceses? I have. Can you tell us?

Wakefield...

for every one who voted in favour, two didn't.

That was 40 for, 76 against,

with four abstentions.

Bradford had a convincing vote in favour, 90 in favour

and four against,

and Leeds had 70 in favour, and I think it was 18 against.

What matters in terms of the numbers?

Is the total across the three dioceses?

Because that's two-to-one for, isn't it? Across the three.

If you take it across the three it's two-to-one for.

I don't know what matters.

It seems to me that Wakefield made a convincing statement

that we felt this wasn't the right way forward for us,

and therefore, with a majority of 36...

..why would the Archbishop think of trying to force it through?

When, for instance over the women bishops debate, six people

defeated a scheme that's so clearly the will of the wider church.

I presume the only issue there is whether

the maths is done on the basis of the total of the three

dioceses rather than just the total of the one.

Yes, but to my memory,

the Church of England has never favoured arranged marriages,

and I can't see why it would on this occasion.

# From lightning and tempest

# From plague, pestilence and famine

# From battle and murder

# And from sudden death... #

CHOIR SINGS

Well, it's been quite a week.

The Pope has retired,

and presumably given up his infallibility at a stroke.

I didn't watch his sendoff on the television

but I'm told it was a moving do

and of course the Archbishop of Canterbury won't be enthroned until

the end of the month,

so the worldwide Church is virtually rudderless.

Not that it will make a jot of difference to the

preaching of the Gospel or the observance of Lent in our churches.

It's a salutary lesson for those of us with any kind

of ecclesiastical responsibility or dignity, that the work of the Gospel

carries on around us, and in spite of us,

whether we're here or not.

The Dioceses Commission has sadly...

..put tensions between certain people,

and, worse than that, has distracted us from what we're about.

One of the things that is true

is that being a professional churchman

does take some of the enthusiasm and life out of my faith.

It struck me recently that seeing the Church from the inside out. .

..sometimes leaves you with some disillusionment,

disappointment, which I think as a layperson you're spared.

Anything in particular?

I think laypeople are fairly disabused of the Church, of all

churches as institutions, aren't they, at the moment?

No, congregations still like to think that clergy are holy people

with good intentions, and I suppose I know now what

clergy are like inside because I have to live with myself! But also

we don't always treat each other and our congregations with...

..with the love that Jesus urges us to do.

I'm... And I...

I think there's a sort of naive hope in me

that one day we will be closer to the kingdom of heaven

Well, I'm sure we will one day be closer to the kingdom of heaven

but I like to think that one day I can live

a more godly life than I do at the moment.

We have a nave back!

Look, we even have an organ back!

They've taken the dust covers off the organ. It's extraordinary actually.

And we've also today been granted a premises licence

by the local authority so it's quite a historic day

in the life of Wakefield Cathedral.

You make it sound like a venue

A venue, that's what we are, a venue for God.

And the people of God. It is a venue.

It's a venue for worship, but it's more than that, isn't it,

because any cathedral, any church...

..is at some level a gateway where you pass

from the things of earth to the things of heaven, so we are that.

But more than that, we are a place where everyone can come.

We're a place both for the relationship with God

and the relationship with each other. A place for the people of God.

Is it heavy?

It's hollow but it still weighs a ton. It's hollow? Yeah.

We've made it hollow because it would've been... Oh, the weight

It would be impossible to lift

Look at this! Look at that.

It looks even better now.

I do like this. It looks great

There is, isn't there? OK.

It's extraordinary. It is.

Oh, it's beautiful.

It's completely beautiful.

No, it's completely beautiful.

As we anoint this altar, may your power, Lord,

make it holy, to be a visible sign of the mystery of Christ,

who offered himself for the life of the world. ALL: Amen.

I've just had someone say to me they feel proud to live in Wakefield.

I thought that was marvellous really.

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