Women Catholics

This is Westminster Cathedral,

Britain's biggest Roman Catholic Church.

Catholic HQ for England and Wales.

It's known as the Mother Church of the Catholic community

and one of the paradoxes of the Catholic faith

is that a church that is so famously patriarchal,

has such a strong feminine presence.

Not just in the figure of the Virgin Mary,

but in the fact that it's mainly women who fill its pews.

I spent the summer of 2011 at the cathedral,

meeting the women who come and go,

its staff, volunteers and congregation,

talking to them about how Catholicism shapes women's lives.

That clock was fast. It's rapidly losing time.

BELL RINGS

That's it.

They're launched.

Are you coming out or staying here?

-I think I'll stay here, if that's OK.

-OK, right.

Sorry, I know it sounds very corny,

-but do you come here often?

-I do. I do, yes.

We come here every Sunday for mass

and I try and come to daily mass when I can,

when it fits in with the kids. But, yeah.

-This is your parish.

-Yes, it is. Yes.

Why do you feel the need to come every day?

-What makes you...

-Cos I love coming to mass!

-All right.

-Erm... Yeah, I love coming to mass.

It's part of my...my make up, I guess.

Are you a born Catholic, a cradle Catholic?

-Yeah, born and raised Catholic.

-Catholic school?

Catholic school, Catholic family, very strong Catholic identity.

What's at the heart of that identity for you, being Catholic?

Erm... Well, I suppose at the heart of it is...

is a relationship with Christ and...and with Our Lady,

and that's, that's just how I was raised so...

For me, coming into a Catholic church is a bit like,

a bit like coming home.

So I feel like I've... I feel like I've got Catholic bones!

I was following Buddhism for ten years.

And I was quite happy with that,

but there was just something missing, and...

When I went to mass, it just felt like the Eucharist

was such an important part of the faith.

And receiving the bread, which is supposed to be the body of Christ,

which I believe is the body of Christ.

And I just had this feeling of the beauty of the church,

there was so much truth in it.

It just guided me here, so I'm really happy

about becoming a Catholic.

I'm here because it's my grandma's anniversary of when she died.

It's something that I do every year.

My mum puts a mass in every year for my grandma's anniversary.

I was very close to her.

And so today, my mum went to mass this morning

and, cos I'm just round the corner from work, I nip in and go to mass.

It makes me feel a lot closer with my grandma.

It gives me time just to think about her

and it also makes me feel like I'm brought closer to my mum.

I didn't even tell my parents that I was going to become a Catholic.

I saw my dad recently and, as we parted, he said,

"Stay away from those Catholics," with a smile.

And my mum, I told my mum that I was going to become a Catholic

and she said, with a big sigh,

"Well, it's better than a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, I suppose."

BELL RINGS

Welcome, Father.

It's not too loud outside today, is it?

It was very bad the other day, when they were digging the original hole.

That's one more on its way.

Fabulous.

I've got the next one ready.

We know who the priest is.

This is like running a train station.

It is. I always say that to people.

Just like getting a goods train ready.

Out the door and in comes the next one.

How did you get into all this?

I'm... I'm a volunteer sacristan at my own church.

And my priest was always saying to me,

"I'm going to get you promoted one day,

"to go to the cathedral."

That was four years ago.

And it's just gone like that, it's amazing.

But this place is never dull. The time goes really quickly.

But of course you're hitting us on a quiet time at the moment.

It's August and the choir has gone away.

And a lot of other people have gone away.

So in our masses, there's no singing

and they're quite plain and straightforward,

so it's nice and quiet.

Is that how you like it?

I must admit I do like the big occasions when, you know,

everything is going on.

Are you all right, Father? Do you want your mass book?

-Did you see my note?

-No.

There's a little mass booked for the crypt at 12 o'clock.

But they haven't turned up yet. So do you want to go and do...?

-Yeah, I'll go down.

-Quietly anyway.

-Excuse us.

-No, it's all right.

-You're OK with that?

-Yes.

-All righty.

-I'll go down.

Right. But just be aware that they might turn up

-and start celebrating mass around you.

-Thank you.

All right. You're welcome.

-That's Father Sorrel, he always does a mass in the crypt.

-For who?

The deceased priests of the diocese.

So he's on his own down there.

We just had a priest concelebrating earlier.

At least he hung his alb on a hanger!

SHE CHUCKLES

Priests always turn up to concelebrate

and they've got nothing with them. No alb, cincture, nothing.

So we can always provide everything they need.

They're normally on holiday and they just ring the bell.

"Can I come in?" they say.

Are you a cradle Catholic?

-Pardon.

-Where you brought up Catholic?

-No, I wasn't. No.

No, I converted when I was... ooh...about 27, 28.

Just before I got married.

Did you convert to get married?

I always felt there was something missing somewhere

and I could never put my finger on it.

And, like you do, one rainy afternoon,

you chat away to your mum about Nanny and all the rest of it.

She said, "Oh, she was Catholic." I'm going, "Really?"

Really? And she met and fell in love with this young man,

got married, etc, and he was Church of England,

so she just went along and brought the children up

as Church of England. So that's what my mother was.

But my mother never wanted to convert to the Catholic faith.

But that's her choice, that's fair enough.

Gone now, unfortunately.

Very sad.

# Alleluia

# Alleluia

# Alleluia. #

Happy is the blessed Virgin Mary

who, without dying,

won the palm of martyrdom,

beneath the Cross of the Lord.

# Alleluia

# Alleluia

# Alleluia. #

The Lord be with you.

ALL: And with your spirit.

Is this your parish church?

Yes, it is my parish church.

And every Catholic is connected to the cathedral of the church.

Were you brought up in England?

I was brought up in Nigeria.

My two grandmothers, they gave us that...

that God is present in the church.

So the very moment we enter the church,

we have that instinct in us.

That God is somewhere watching you. God somewhere looking at you.

ALL: Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof,

but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

There are some times when I feel I have sinned,

I've done something very wrong.

And once I come into the church, I can't help myself but cry.

I just keep crying, keep crying and keep crying,

and before I leave that day,

after the crying and the prayers,

by the time I leave the church, I feel

something very heavy has been lifted off me.

I feel that joy in me, I feel that happiness in me.

That no man can ever give to you.

Does that mean everything you experience elsewhere in life,

friendships, relationships are all inadequate?

God is the only one.

When you come into his presence, no matter how depressed you are,

no matter how happy you are,

no matter your feeling,

when you come into his presence

and you pour out that feeling to him,

he has a way of putting you together,

which no man will do for you.

Are you single?

Yes.

Always been single?

SHE LAUGHS

Um... Not really...

I've...not always been single.

I'm not married yet, but I had a relationship

that probably didn't go well

and...now I'm single.

I want to be married very soon.

I walk quite fast when I'm off on my travels.

I must do about six miles in a day.

That's on a quiet day.

Just up and down, up and down.

We didn't need any hosts then, the tabernacle is obviously full.

We didn't use much wine. So that can go over there.

The plants get the holy water.

-They do very well, those plants.

-What happens to the unused wine?

That's consumed out on the sanctuary.

That's not been consecrated, that one there.

When it's poured into the chalice and prayed over,

then it's consecrated.

Cos it's not wine any more, it's blood.

What is that?

It's blood then, isn't it? It's the blood of Christ.

-So it has to be consumed.

-Once it's consecrated.

-Yes, definitely.

Right.

Is that something you understood instinctively

when you became Catholic? Or did you struggle with that?

-I think you do, don't you?

-What, you struggle?

I think you do to start with, yes.

But then, as a Church of England Christian,

you're taught the same thing.

Um... Not quite as intensively as with the Catholic faith.

I think the children have trouble with that, don't they?

Because, um... when is the first time they have wine?

It's sacred blood...

It's got to be their first holy communion, hasn't it?

-When they're seven.

-So they have their lessons then.

I don't think they totally understand what's happened.

-What about you?

-They just grow into it.

-Do you understand it?

-I accept it, yes.

Yes, I do. Yes. It's very important.

So that, when it's been consecrated,

it's either consumed or it's poured back in the soil.

Always goes back to the soil, you see?

What happens in there, is it a treasure chest?

It is, yes. Do you want a quick look? I don't see why you shouldn't.

Don't show me the combination.

It's all our what I call "everyday things" in here.

Various chalices and...

..holy water buckets...

and all sorts of things in here. Wedding registers.

One or two of the priests' private chalices.

All sorts of things in here.

Are you responsible for everything, do you look after everything?

Yes, yes. We often have to pull stuff out if we've got,

you know, a big mass on.

A Chrism Mass, like at Easter, we do a mass for about 700 priests.

-Amazing.

-It is.

That's what this place is built for, nice big occasions.

This is still known as the architect's room.

It's an archive that gets used a lot.

You'll see from the drawings.

This one is the full-sized details of the apse of the Lady Chapel.

Is the Lady Chapel kind of, like, you know...

A cathedral presumably is built around its altar.

Oh, the main altar, yes.

But devotion to Our Lady is a very central part of the...

of any Catholic church.

At one point, it was considered to be that which distinguished

a Catholic church from say, an Anglican,

except for a High Anglican church.

And the...this, for instance, that's...

that's some decorative detail there.

A Catholic church will show devotion to Mary as the mother of God.

So, in a sense... In fact, there's plenty of theology

that says she's a Co-Redemptrix.

That in fact SHE was, er...

Without her, there would have been no Jesus.

Because he wouldn't have been born. She had to give her permission.

She had to say yes when told by Gabriel

that she was appointed, as it were, to be the mother of God.

She had to say yes.

So there was a little movement in the '60s and '70s,

possibly before that,

to say, "Well, Mary, should be, should be..."

A friend of mine scurrilously said she was fourth Trinity.

She's the fourth member of the Trinity.

I didn't think she meant it seriously.

That's the flooring.

I'll show you that one, cos that's the layout.

Is that how you see Mary, then? As a woman who took on a task?

Oh, an incredibly strong woman.

As far as she was concerned, whatever had to be done had to be done.

And the fact that she was so calm under all this.

There was not, "Hang on a minute, I'll go and think about this."

But there was just this calm,

"Let it be done unto me according to the Word."

This, "Whatever you want to do, I'm your handmaid. Just do it."

And this is such a strong thing to be,

and she kept this all the way through.

I'm confused, maybe it's just because I'm a bloke.

Why is that a sign of strength? You could say...

You could interpret that in a completely opposite way.

As a sign of passivity, "I'll do whatever you want."

You could indeed, yes.

But she, she, she...erm...

She doesn't give out the idea of being a passive woman.

She would have had a struggle under those circumstances.

She'd have looked puzzled, she'd have been puzzled,

she'd have been worried, she'd have been thoughtful,

she'd have been concerned because if she did this,

"Oh, I'm going to be pregnant. Is he going to...

"I don't know if he's going to look after me. What's going to happen?"

There was no concern about it,

because she had given her life over to God

and she had, as far as we are told,

up to that time, I mean, it's always difficult to know factually.

There are no facts. It's a question of belief.

But she had lived a devout life.

But I do get such a strong feeling of femininity,

of strong female-ness from Mary.

And this is one of the attributes of women, I feel,

that hasn't perhaps been acknowledged all the way

through the Church by any means.

Because the functional side has been carried out by the disciples

and of course Christ was a man.

But complementing this was this great strength that comes from Mary.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou amongst women,

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

ALL: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women,

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

ALL: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

ALL: Amen.

On pilgrimage to Lourdes.

We might have it in the back. Sometimes we have the forms.

Travel...

-I'll write the number down for you.

-Oh, lovely. Thank you.

-Have you been to Lourdes?

-No.

I haven't been to any shrine.

But hopefully, next year.

My niece has bought a little place

that she is doing up in the Pyrenees.

So I'll go on a day trip. Just to go.

I haven't even been to Walsingham.

Were you brought up a Catholic? A cradle Catholic.

Yes, I am a cradle Catholic, yeah.

-Did you have a Catholic education as well?

-Yes.

-A convent?

-Yes, yes, yes.

The Butterflies.

-Butterflies?

-Yes, yes.

-You know, the Sisters of Charity, we call them the Butterflies.

-Ah, OK.

OK.

Yes, I was.

Happy memories?

Very, I loved it. I loved it.

But we didn't send our daughters to convent school.

We sent them to Catholic school but not convent.

For any particular reason?

Er... I just kind of wanted them to have a broader...

a broader view of life, you know?

-I felt we were somewhat sheltered.

-You weren't encouraged to question.

No, not at all. No, no, no. No.

Blind obedience. And blind faith.

No, we weren't, we weren't. No. No. But it's very different.

When you were at school, it must have been very different.

I mean, you can question, argue and they want you to now, don't they?

Yeah.

No, it was very...

But we were indoctrinated, definitely.

We were told, "You're up there on a pedestal

"and you don't let anybody knock you off it," you know. "Stay pure."

-For being Catholic?

-Yes.

And we were... Well, we prayed for our separated brethren

in my youth.

Your separated brethren?

That's what we prayed for. Our separated brethren.

In other words, those who weren't following us.

But when I say pedestal, it was the sisters who would say,

you know, that you're pure.

That's really what they were implying.

And that you're up on that pedestal

and it's only the temptations in life

that could knock you off that pedestal.

So you need to keep yourself pure and holy.

This was about sex, something like it?

Yes, of course it was. Everything was about it.

It wasn't referred to, just wasn't referred to.

So what happened when you got to that age

when you'd start having boyfriends? Were you just kept away from it?

Well, yes, yes, kind of.

But I think it's when you leave school, really, you know?

You hit the student years

then you realise you've led a very sheltered life.

Some go wild and some can temper it a little bit.

And so many...

I feel, of my era

got married simply because they wanted to sleep together.

And just have sex, that was the only way.

And if they did,

if they did have sex outside marriage, it was really kept quiet.

You would never openly say you'd lived with somebody

or spent the night with somebody. You just wouldn't do it.

So it must have affected us all.

All of those who went through that form

of rigid Catholicism that we were taught in the '40s and '50s.

I think so.

Definitely, definitely.

I think that needs a clean one.

Do you ever go to confession?

I do, yes.

Somewhere where nobody knows me.

Do you find it helpful?

I do. Yes, it's good to get your conscience clear.

Say that you are really sorry.

But I don't go anywhere that I know the priests.

It is better to be anonymous.

What are these, are they stoles?

Yes, the priest always wears that when he's hearing confession.

You have to wash them, do you?

Well, I send them to the dry cleaners, yeah.

I'm just having a look at the back of their neck.

No, cos it gets all black and sweaty.

Well, you know, people perspire.

-Even priests.

-They do.

They do. They're human as well.

Lots of people come here, don't they?

Oh, they do. It's very, very popular.

-Why do you think that is?

-Because Our Lady means a lot.

You see how her foot is nice and shiny and clean

cos everybody touches it.

All the statues have got clean feet.

-Do you do that?

-I do, yes.

Well, she's a woman and a mum.

And we've all got the same problems.

And she understands when you're having trouble.

So connecting with her makes life easier, does it?

Oh, it does, yes.

You feel there's someone there watching out for you.

Definitely.

How are you doing, Dora? Do you need any more boxes? Oh! Good.

Through Baptism and Confirmation,

make him your faithful follower and a witness to your Gospel.

Lord, hear us.

Lord, graciously hear us.

THEY MOUTH

What's your connection with the cathedral?

I think I've been coming here since about 1963.

I've been through three, four cardinals,

and about ten...ten administrators.

-Are you here every day?

-Almost.

-Were you brought up Catholic? Are you a cradle Catholic?

I was cradle Catholic but my father was an Irish Catholic,

which meant you go to mass just after Gospel, that suffices.

It was only when I was 20, my brother was diagnosed with cancer,

the first thing I did was went to pray.

And since then, that's why I'm so staunch, it helped through a difficult time,

cos David was the nearest brother to me.

It was like tearing half of you out.

And, of course, the family went through

a traumatic experience as well,

so ever since then, I've been grateful for the gift I have.

And I've never wavered.

But I think faith is one of the important things.

Health is important. I mean, I had cancer at one point.

About ten years ago. And I said, sort of said... I didn't panic.

"Well, if I'm going to survive, I will."

I didn't worry about it. People said, "How can you be so calm?"

I said, "Well, it's a fact of life.

"If I'm meant to survive, then I will."

And I did.

So I think, in the worst situations,

if you can turn to prayer, it does help you through.

So that's why I'm very grateful for the gift of faith.

Because life has many difficulties.

And I think without prayer I could never cope.

It's a long story now, but when my brother David was born,

my mother already had five children.

She went to the priest and said, "I have five children.

"The last child is sickly, please can I use contraception?"

And the priest said, "No, you should go and multiply."

So my mother had three more children she couldn't cope with.

And I think we felt the brunt of that.

When David died, she said, "I'm sorry, I neglected you all."

It's an awful thing to put on somebody,

to have children she couldn't cope with.

-And then feel guilty afterwards.

-Did that make you feel

there's something wrong in Catholic teaching?

Yes, I think so. People shouldn't be forced to have babies.

I think, if I was in my mother's state, I would say to God,

"I'm sorry, God. I've had five. I honestly can't cope with more."

I think it was wrong to burden somebody with that on their conscience.

To feel guilty the rest of her days, having three more children.

Cos I think it's a case of using your own sense with God.

If you think it's wrong in yourself, tell God rather than a priest,

who hasn't the influence in your...

I'm not condemning the priests, because they have to do what they say.

But I think if you've got... attuned with God,

and you feel it's right with him, then go ahead.

Because it's making three children

that are really unbalanced in a way.

And that's why we missed out on something.

But by the grace of God, we got through all right.

SIREN BLARES

You haven't got any particular connection with the cathedral?

It is, I suppose, my local parish church,

if one can demote it to a church.

I'm within the catchment area. It would be my parish church.

Actually, when I was a medical student

at the old Westminster Hospital,

we used to get special seats at the big masses,

like Christmas Eve and things like that.

-And you used to attend?

-Oh, yes.

In the balcony they had spaces for nurses and medical students.

-Do you ever attend mass?

-I do.

I feel a great attachment to the Church,

and would call myself Catholic,

but then I really could not uphold various of the teachings at all,

particularly things like contraception,

and much more recently, the various edicts on AIDS

and the management of AIDS in Africa,

which I very strongly disagree with.

I find it very, very difficult

to come to terms with the recent paedophilia problems.

You reach a point when you know that's not acceptable

to the Church but you don't want to leave it.

The only way you can accept it is by trying to differentiate

from the actual faith and the actual institution

and the actual people in it, which are not all really synonymous.

What's the Catholic bit of you?

Is it belief in God?

Um...

I think the belief in Christianity, yes.

God and Christianity. And in the moral grounding that it gives you,

which is very...

Not that one wants to shake it off, but it's very ingrained, almost.

And that very prominent sense of "do as you would be done by."

A moral code that's very useful in the chaos and turmoil of life.

How often do you come to the cathedral?

I come to the cathedral most weekdays to light a candle,

and Saturday and Sunday, if I'm in London,

I go to mass at 8:00 in the morning.

Why are you lighting the candle?

I have family with cancer and I've always done it anyway

and my grandchildren don't live near, so I just...

A way of talking to God. I don't say it in prayers.

I say, "Please look after" and things like that.

I have six grandchildren and two daughters,

and I'm one of a family of five,

so we have quite a few problems and quite a lot of happy things.

Just a way of talking to someone, to be perfectly honest.

My husband died 11 years ago

and I find a great deal of comfort and solace coming to church.

I was brought up a Catholic, you see?

-Have you always practised?

-Not when I was living with my second husband.

When I was young I thought you had to follow it to the last letter,

and as you get older, you realise nobody does.

The priests don't. The bishops don't.

Some of the popes were downright evil. Who made those rules?

There's now talk of the Pope saying that women can practise birth control,

which I always did any way, so that's why I'm not a good Catholic,

and I never followed in that blind way, ever. Not even when I was young.

Did that leave you feeling you weren't a good Catholic?

Yeah. I'm not a good Catholic.

If you ask me what I am, I'm a Catholic,

but I'm not a good Catholic. I'm definitely not a devout Catholic.

-When you come to communion, do you say communion?

-No, I don't.

I couldn't take communion without going to confession.

You've been to confession?

I did up until I was about 30.

Now I wouldn't dream of going to confession and communion.

The main reason being that my second husband, I married him...

My first husband left me

and he'd been gone eight years and I divorced him and married Ken.

So according to the Church, I was never married to Ken

and I could never, ever deny that.

I had seven wonderful years with Ken.

I didn't feel I was doing anything wrong at all.

So I can't now go to confession and say,

"Seven years I was living in sin with Ken

"because we hadn't been married in the Church."

Then you look back to the old days

and they used to let the stars suddenly have this little thing

that they'd absolve their marriage so they could get married in Church.

It seemed to me, if you were wealthy enough and well-known enough,

you could bend the rules.

-Does that leave you angry?

-Not angry, just a bit cross.

Not terribly angry.

I just thought, "You do what you want."

You have to make your own decisions in life about everything.

That's something a lot of women have expressed,

they have to get an annulment.

Yes, and that's a nonsense, isn't it?

You slept together whether you annul it or not.

You've slept together.

Either you see that as a sin or you don't and I don't,

to be perfectly honest.

I don't believe in promiscuity, but that's up to people themselves, too.

I've only had two husbands and that's it.

I wasn't sorry for either one of them.

I love them both, I've been a very fortunate person.

If you've been a good person, if there is a God, he'll know,

and if there isn't, it doesn't matter much, does it?

Does the thought of a heaven comfort you in any way?

I find it hard to believe in. I just find it hard to believe in.

My sister says, "It'll be dead boring!"

She said, "I'd rather go below.

"They might have parties and drink and what have you."

But I really can't envisage it, that's the truth of the matter.

I really can't.

I don't know if you can, but I can't.

The body of Christ...

The body of Christ...

The body of Christ...

The body of Christ...

The body of Christ...

Why are you here today?

We're here to see Billy Elliot. It's a day trip for both of us.

While we were passing through I said, "I'd like to go

"and look at this church because I think it's a Catholic church."

I'm drawn in with the atmosphere and all the bits around you.

The paintings I find...

Always when I go on holiday I look around Catholic...

Any churches that are lovely.

And I thought I'd take Daisy to see it as well. I didn't force her.

-She said, "Oh, shall we go inside?" So we did, didn't we?

-Yeah.

-That's why.

-Are you Catholic?

Yes, but I'm not a practising Catholic any more.

I can pray at home whenever I like.

I can go to any church as I only believe there's one God any way.

I was brought up a Catholic, went to a Catholic school.

-That doesn't mean to say you're going to carry on.

-What happened?

Why did you stop?

My brother died, and my parents, especially my mum,

didn't get over it.

And the Church and the priests

just didn't answer the questions correctly that I...thought,

"Well, why take somebody away that is so loved?"

And they didn't give me right answers,

so I sort of started to feel a bit bad.

It's hard to explain to people,

because in your heart you know there's still something there,

like when I go to churches like this, I get quite emotional.

I always feel there's a... I'm in a...

a bit of a limbo, that I feel...I want to do something,

but I'm not sure what track I want to go down.

I don't think I'll ever go to what we...I was brought up,

because I think that was...

it was a thing, "You've got to do it."

Like you had to go to church on different days.

And you daren't not go.

Until you got a bit older and then, I sort of told Daisy,

I sort of went in to show my face and then disappeared out.

Which sometimes I used to think,

"Oh, if my mum found out or my dad found out..."

But perhaps they did know.

You know.

So there.

For vespers tonight, I will put these out in the chapel.

Don't let me forget that,

because they've got to be alight all day tomorrow,

-and they won't last.

-They stay alight all day because...

They do, because it's the Assumption, yeah,

and it's the Feast of Our Lady.

So we leave a light all day.

Look at this, people putting flowers in.

It's nice, innit?

And that's...the Assumption is the day that she went into heaven.

You celebrate her death, her burial

and when she ascends to heaven, yes, all in the same day, yes.

So there.

I thought she didn't die.

Well...

She must have died in some respect, mustn't she?

To have risen and gone up to heaven, yes,

or she wouldn't have a burial, would she?

How did Father Swavek put it? Let's have a look, it's in the newsletter.

Because all the priests take it in turns to write the front of these.

Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch...

"It commemorates Our Lady's death and burial, her rising to life,

"her pass over from this world

"and then her assumption into heaven."

There we are, "Amidst the rejoicing of all the angels and saints."

There you are.

That's come from the boss.

Look at this.

Fabulous, aren't they? That's my favourite one.

Oh!

Dresses for the girls.

And what are these ones?

These are two very old and rather gorgeous chasubles,

which, as it's a solemnity tomorrow,

we're getting out all the nice things.

And this is a coat, what we call a Marian coat.

The blue again on the white for Mary.

That's rather gorgeous.

-Who wears that tomorrow? The priest?

-That's the priest that says prayers.

-Is that very old?

-Oh, I should think that's about 100, at least.

Most things around here are.

-Yeah.

-Beautiful.

Rather gorgeous but very heavy.

OK... Thank you.

-OK?

-Thank you.

There are vestments stored everywhere.

It is quiet at the moment, unusually quiet.

-And why is that? Do you know?

-I don't know.

Because the schools are back, and everybody's back at work,

so it should be... it should be quite busy.

And usually, once we open the front door, the main door,

-they all start coming in.

-Right. Yeah, it does feel...

It draws... Yeah, it draws people in, yes.

How long have you been doing it? I can't remember.

About...six, I think, five, five, six years. Mmm.

-Erm... Yes, five or six.

-Why did you start?

Because this was my...little haven. I used to come here.

When I first came seven, eight years ago,

I used to come, walk from Battersea to the cathedral

and find a nice little spot and just sit there.

-When you first came to London?

-To London, yeah,

because it's the first time I'd lived on my own,

and I just used to come and sit here just after my husband had left me.

And I came over from Waterford to be here,

with my daughters.

I came to live here only because of my daughters,

because they both live here.

Were you surprised to find yourself coming to the cathedral,

or in that time of difficulty, this was the first place to come?

Yes, yeah, no, no, I... I...

No, I purposely came here, purposely came here,

because I hadn't been for a long time, years and years and years,

but I knew it had made a big impression on me,

so I just came, and I knew that it would be open.

That's why I started coming and getting involved.

-Did you speak to the priests, then?

-No.

I didn't speak to anybody. No.

I just came and sat.

I could just come and sit and nobody bothered me.

I could just reflect and then go home and feel a little bit refreshed.

I know you can sit in the park and reflect and whatnot,

but somehow here it's conducive to it

for me to put my... get my train of thought going,

just thinking about life and...

I mean, not wallowing, just sitting...

Praying?

Not praying as such,

because now I believe that you really just have to sit

and try to empty your mind, and that's really...

That's what the fathers in the desert did.

They didn't have to go to mass or do anything,

just sat in the desert and meditated, and that's what I think is...

That's when you get really near to God, I think.

The more time you take...out for silence,

You know, when you can push it out

and just... just sit quietly and meditate.

And not meditate on something, just empty your mind if you can.

Empty your mind.

Well, that's what I try to do.

I don't know which saints these are.

There's quite a lot of different ones in there.

-Can you actually see the bits?

-Yes, yes.

That's where they live, in there. The relics, yes.

Those are the relics.

All bones and hair and various relics from the saints.

OK?

There's six of them normally,

but the other four are out on the high altar.

Yeah, that's what they look like inside.

So do you know what we're looking at?

The earthly remains, I suppose.

I don't know if the rest of them are elsewhere.

Every church has got a relic of some sort.

That says Mary Magdalene, that one.

Some have got whole bodies, haven't they? Heads...

-But it's a big Catholic tradition, isn't it?

-It is, yes, yes.

It's three trips to put these all on the altar.

There we go.

-Are they there for all the feast days?

-Yes, yes, the very big ones.

-And is this a favourite of your feast days, Mary?

-Yes.

Did you kind of instantly take to the whole relic business

when you became a Catholic? Some people find it strange.

No, I think it takes a bit of getting used to, doesn't it?

It takes a bit of getting used to.

How do you kind of understand it?

I don't know, it's just nice to remember these people

and think that you've got a part of them that's with you somehow.

But there we are.

Jesus is the one that's with me, you know, he's...

He's always around when I need him. Right.

I'm going to leave them covered up till the mass starts.

SIREN WAILS

How often do you come to the cathedral?

Well, I've only just started to come, because I haven't had the...

I haven't had the...confidence to come all the way from Harrow.

But now I'm going to try and come at least two or three times a week,

because I find this place is...

I've been in enormous palaces

and churches and things all over the world.

And this is the only big building where, as soon as you walk in,

you feel...

I kind of... It makes me want to cry.

You feel a kind of warmth and a love,

and it's amazing feeling this place, and it is so beautiful.

You can't help but look at it

and think...you know, just how great it is.

I-I don't think I would have survived after the stroke

-without...the Church.

-Really?

Because...I was a lapsed Catholic

for 60 years.

And...I went...

I went back to the Church on December 15th last year,

and my whole life changed back to the security

and the feeling of... of relaxation and calm

that I had lost with the stroke.

Because with the stroke I felt like ET, you know, nothing was real.

Why did you lapse from Catholicism?

Do you know, that's an interesting question.

I don't really know. I think it was...

I think it was, you know, the world in general,

and I was travelling a lot.

And there was such a lot of temptations then.

Now I don't know how young people manage.

And I used to feel...

It was very strange.

I didn't... I didn't feel guilty.

I should have felt... "I should be going to mass today,"

but I mean, I missed the wonderful church music and things like that,

but I lived for four years in Rome

and never went to mass once when I was there.

What were you doing? What were you...?

I-I was in the fashion world.

So I was doing some, er... you know, fashion work.

But...

-And then you came back to England, did you?

-What?

-You came back to England after that, did you?

-Yes.

But...it's really weird, when I sit and pray now,

I don't know how I survived without it...

for 40 years. I don't know how I survived.

More than 40 years, 60 years.

But you were happy without it, were you?

You've had a happy 40, 60 years without Catholicism?

Well, it was... When I look...

You see, hindsight is the only... is the only true eyesight.

With hindsight, I don't think I was. I was always...

I was always looking for what was coming next.

I wasn't enjoying the moment.

I think that was the biggest difference.

And now you're back,

is the figure of Our Lady... significant, a part of that return,

or is it the figure of Christ hanging above us here?

No, I talk to Our Lady, it's the intercession bit.

I'm not worthy after my chequered background

to talk directly to God,

so, dear, Blessed Lady, will you intercede for me?

But you said to me a moment ago

that you didn't feel guilty about being lapsed.

I didn't when it was going on. I have guilt complexes now.

I've got guilt about things that I did to other people

and...the years I wasted that I... I feel the years...

Because the seven months since I went back to the Church

have been so glorious,

I can't help but think

that the 60 years would have been very different

if I had been practising.

I think it was a Jesuit who said,

"Give me a child until they're seven,

"they'll be a Catholic for life."

Thank goodness I was a Catholic at seven

because I have something at the end of my life.

And I certainly couldn't have come to this wonderful place

which is beautiful, this place, it is so lovely.

When do you actually go to mass? You're so busy running around.

11:30 on a Sunday morning, is my favourite mass time.

Is that an important moment in the week for you?

Yes, it is, yes.

It's the one time...mind you, no, I don't sit there

and nobody comes up to me and says, "Rose, have you got a key?

"Rose, have you got this, Rose, can I can have that?"

Rose, something else, you know.

I'm on call there as well, but there we are.

This is nice, isn't it?

Since you converted to Catholicism, which is many years ago now, isn't it?

It is, don't say it like that!

I'm not going to ask you how many.

It's about 25, actually, it would have been

my 25th wedding anniversary a couple of months ago.

You're divorced?

I am, now, yes.

When did that happen?

About four years ago.

And am I right in thinking you converted to be married,

is that right? Or you converted at the time of marriage?

Yes, I thought, "If I'm going to get married

"I want to have a nuptial mass and do it as a Catholic."

How have you found being divorced in the Catholic church,

is that a tricky journey?

No, no, because people have been very caring

and people I didn't know very well have been very supportive

and very caring

and my priest was really fantastic, he's always there when I needed him.

He'd always say, "Ring me in the middle of the night if you wake up

"and need to talk to somebody."

He was very, very good. But, anyway, let's not dwell on that,

I don't really want to think about that.

OK.

Oh, it's got a little pocket and everything here, look.

It's got a handbag.

I've got a final question.

Go on.

As you get older, does faith become more or less important

in your life, do you think?

I think it depends what happens to you in your life.

I think elderly people, who are getting near to their death,

perhaps start thinking about it more as they're going to meet their maker at some stage.

I think it depends what happens in your life, doesn't it? Yeah.

It's not the same for everybody.

Does it get more important in your life?

I think I went through a stage I hit rock bottom in my life.

I've got this strange idea

that by giving me a job here He's taken me and said,

"Rose, I'll put you in head office,

"I can hold your hand and keep an eye on you."

I think that's rather nice.

So that's why I'm here, so there we are.

As I say, it's different for different people.

Why are you at mass tonight?

Because it's a Feast Day, isn't it?

-Shouldn't you be in blue?

-In blue? Why blue?

-Cos it's a Feast Day.

-That's for nuns, isn't it, blue?

No, if you're out on Sanctuary on a Feast Day

you have to have a cassock on.

BELL RINGS

Sometimes people like to see Our Lady

as being so very meek and mild.

"I am the handmaid of the Lord" taken to extremes.

Others react against this and try to envisage her as a steely,

Middle Eastern woman with barely a trace of femininity.

Each of us will have our own image of Our Lady

and I hope that there is room in that image

for meekness and strength.

Right, there we are.

Just a case of clearing up and going home now.

'Ladies and gentlemen, Westminster Cathedral is now closing.

'Please make your way to the main exit at the back of the cathedral.

'Thank you and good night.'

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