Is Football Racist?

This programme contains strong language.

..a charge of racially-abusing a fellow player.

In February, John Terry was stripped of the England captaincy

after being charged with racially abusing an opponent on the pitch.

Although later cleared of this charge by a court,

that wasn't English football's only racism allegation last season.

Luis Suarez was banned by the Football Association

for racially-abusing another player.

I'm Clarke Carlisle,

and I have been a professional footballer for 16 years.

'I'm also the chairman of the Players' Union.'

Nobody should be abused in their workplace.

'Last season, I felt ashamed of my industry.'

I thought we had done so much to eradicate racism from the sport,

but it's like, "What the hell is going on?"

"Is there actually a problem with racism in our game?"

So I went on a journey to find out if football is racist.

I talk to some big names in the game.

I have had all sorts - "Hang yourself", "Go back to Africa".

"Sand nigger". "Coon". "Wog".

To me, racism is racism. Simple as that.

'I came across problems at the bottom, and top, of football.'

Everyone says he will not make it cos you're brown.

-I think a white manager is given longer when you get a job.

-Right.

Longer to fail.

'I travelled overseas and witnessed stuff I'd never seen before.'

Look at this - no-one will report them for chanting here.

'But the biggest revelation for me was on my own doorstep.'

The abuse was all around you, and nobody did a thing.

Nobody did a thing.

I am learning every day. Every person I talk to

is opening my eyes, opening my mind

to a completely different side of life.

I've been playing football for nearly 20 years now.

I've played across all four top divisions in England,

and I can honestly say the colour of my skin

has never been a hindrance to me.

I have never experienced any form of racism.

I thought we have done so much to eradicate racism from the sport,

but the Luis Suarez incident and the allegation against John Terry,

it's kind of like, "What the hell's going on?

"Is there a problem with racism in our game?"

'My children are too young to have heard of racism.

'But I've never even discussed race at home.'

It hasn't been prevalent for us, has it?

No, we don't talk about it that much but our children are mixed-race.

I remember a friend asking if there were any

mixed-race people in their school, which took me aback.

because I don't think of them as mixed-race, white or anything.

They're just my babies.

I don't like labelling them like that.

Their mixed-race is Lancashire versus Yorkshire.

THEY LAUGH

That's exactly it, and that is how I want to be.

I don't want it to be an issue.

I don't think it's an issue.

They're just beautiful, or whatever.

'My job means I am often away from my home in Yorkshire.

'I'm currently playing for Northampton Town.

'in the English Fourth Division.'

I have been fortunate enough to play across all four divisions now.

As chairman of the Players' Union, I think that's fantastic,

because I can have an empathy across every level.

'I'm trying to find out

'if my profession has serious problems with racism.

'First stop is my team-mates.

'I've never suffered any racism in the game, so am I the odd one out?'

Talk to me - have you experienced racism in your careers?

I don't know what it is, but players-wise,

I have never had any problems. It's the fans, once.

I heard a comment in the crowd. I was only about 18.

Something I heard.

I spoke to the referee, and he wasn't too fussed at the time.

I don't know if now if you were to mention anything to the referee,

if they would react. I don't think at our level they would be overly keen.

When I was younger, I signed for a Lithuanian club

so I experienced racism to the highest degree.

My first game, the chanting was, "Zigga, zigga, zigga,

"shoot the fucking nigger".

Here, I signed for Northampton.

When I played for Nottingham Forest, they had a black back four

and their left-back came up to me

and said, "He's called me a black so-and-so,

"and I need to sort him out".

As I was going in, the striker said,

"I did say it, but it was the heat of the moment

"and I am apologising to you, because I have respect for you".

I said, "I don't want to catch you saying that again".

If a player was racist himself, he wouldn't get away with it

in the changing room these days

because his team-mates wouldn't allow it.

You would get told.

It was interesting that the team-mates I spoke to who were black

both had personal experiences of racism within the game,

which in itself says something.

If my experiences have been the exception, I've been fortunate.

'All good dressing rooms in my career

'have been built around a strong bond between team-mates,

'but last season, club loyalties

'and the issue of racism came head-to-head.'

When John Terry and Luis Suarez

were accused of racially-abusing opponents,

both clubs supported their players very publicly.

Before Terry was cleared in court, the then-Chelsea manager,

Andre Villas-Boas gave immediate backing to his captain.

I'm fully backing John.

It is just a misunderstanding, blown out of proportion.

More controversially, the Liverpool team

put on Luis Suarez tee-shirts after their team-mate was found guilty,

and banned by the Football Association for eight matches.

When he returned to the pitch, Kenny Dalglish, at the time Liverpool manager,

again insisted his man had been unfairly treated.

I'm delighted he is back playing, he should never have been away.

'I want to find out how Liverpool supporters have been influenced

'by their club's strong defence of Luis Suarez.'

How you doing, mate?

It's been a while, hasn't it?

'I'm off back to one of my old clubs, Queens Park Rangers,

'where Liverpool are playing.'

How you doing?

I see you everywhere!

-Thank you.

-No worries.

'From the off, Liverpool supporters get behind their striker.'

THEY CHANT

ALL: Luis Suarez!

'What do they make of the punishment handed out to him?'

As a Liverpool fan, do you think his eight-match ban was fair?

I don't think so because we have had other cases like this,

and nothing's been done about it.

Eight matches was too much.

It was one word against another, no conclusive evidence.

It was an argument, obviously it has been blasted up by the media to make him

look worse than what he is.

It is probably necessary for the good of the game, I should imagine.

Haven't you think about how the club reacted?

They could have handled it better, but they have to back their player.

He made a mistake and he was hung out to dry for it.

Liverpool backed their player, rightly or wrongly.

That's how it is.

The biggest point that came across to me tonight,

from the Liverpool fans,

was that they do believe racism is in issue

that needs to be tackled,

but their stance is borne out of the sense of injustice.

You know, they believe the issue should be tackled,

but they don't believe Luis Suarez, given the circumstances,

was the right person to set that precedent.

They want to look after their superstar striker,

that's what I think.

'Both Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool have since said

'they should have handled the situation differently,

'and stated they are fully committed to fighting racism.'

'But I have been left wondering whether club tribalism

'could be at risk of encouraging racism within football.'

Did Liverpool's strong backing of Luis Suarez

actually send a message to some of its fans

that racist abuse is all right?

As a big tweeter,

I've discovered that one former Premiership star, Stan Collymore,

has collected lots of racist tweets directed at Patrice Evra,

the target of Luis Suarez's racial slur.

These are absolutely disgusting.

There's plenty, plenty more.

"Fuck you, you fucking black piece of shit."

It's not Suarez's fault that your mother got fucked by a nigger."

I can't catch my breath that people would put these on open broadcast to the world,

never mind think them on their own to begin with.

There's loads, one after the other. "Evra the monkey",

-"Evra's a black monkey..."

-BLEEP

-Frightening.

You look at the identities of some of the guys here,

and there could be some trolling going on,

because there's some who don't seem to have any affiliation whatsoever,

but there are a lot of LFCs, LFCs,

in their handles, never mind just the hash tags,

so you can see that people are Liverpool fans.

Stan is a former England international

and used to play for Liverpool himself.

These days, he's a leading sports broadcaster.

"Collymore live from Wembley Stadium,

"Well, of course, as always, you can tweet me..."

Just before he goes on air for a major final at Wembley,

I ask about the racist messages directed at him on Twitter,

by trolls and a small minority of Liverpool fans.

Your personal Twitter experience,

what kind of abuse have you come across on there?

I've had all sorts, "hang yourself",

"go back to Africa, go back to San nigger, coon, wog."

It's worse, it was five or six racist messages a day

I think a lot of people are looking for a reaction.

How do you feel Liverpool's stance as a club

over the Suarez incident influenced their fans about the issue?

The Suarez affair was dealt with, awfully, I think, by Liverpool,

by the media department, Kenny Dalglish,

by the club, the players in general.

You'll remember the T-shirts and the support.

How many Liverpool fans,

particularly again of a young age,

were then more likely to call people

that were dissenting like me, that played for the club,

a coon, nigger? Etcetera, etcetera.

And that is the responsibility a football club has.

If you put yourself out there to not look at the issue and address it,

people will follow you,

to the point that a manager of a high-profile Premier League club

said, "go and jump off a cliff",

you'd get certain football fans that would take that literally.

Liverpool isn't a racist city as far as I'm concerned,

nor is the football club,

but again, you leave the door open to any ambiguity,

and lots of things can follow.

Do you think other clubs would've acted in a similar way to Liverpool

when it came to protecting one of their prized assets?

They would've all acted the same.

If you've got £20 million worth of assets,

that may be saleable in a two or three years' time,

or is playing particularly well,

when you're sat in a boardroom and the issue of race is there,

and the issue of pounds, shillings and pence between financial people,

the unfortunate circumstances that came out of the Suarez affair was

that racism wasn't the ultimate issue,

it became financial and an asset towards the club.

Until that changes, we'll never get across the finishing line.

Stan's words struck me,

because I thought that racism wasn't an issue in the game any more.

But when he's saying for the top clubs

it's not at the top of their list of priorities,

that's a really disturbing conclusion.

DISTANT CHEERING

I've played for lots of different clubs over the years.

I want to know why the stands are so much less multicultural

than the pitch in professional football.

Many clubs are based in areas with large ethnic communities.

But I want to find out why very few of these turn out

to watch their local clubs.

MUSIC

I've been invited on a day out

with some Wolverhampton Wanderers fans.

They're known as the Punjabi Wolves.

THEY CHANT

I thought it might be a bit sombre,

because the boys have been relegated,

but it is a proper party today.

'Founded by some of Wolverhampton's Sikh population...

'..these guys are a rare example of an ethnic community

'following their local club to matches.'

THEY CHANT

It's like a carnival. Is it like this every week, everywhere you go? Brilliant.

Do you think clubs should do more

to embrace their ethnic-minority communities?

Wolverhampton is one of many cities that isn't tapping into the market,

which has meant the public-relations opportunities,

and also the commercial opportunities -

not just Wolverhampton Wanderers,

but other football clubs across the board don't capitalise on that.

How are you experienced any racial abuse while you have been

not just part of this supporters' club,

but in and around football grounds?

In football, yes, unfortunately, I have.

A few years ago, when we were in the Championship,

we were playing Cardiff City.

It was when Michael Chopra was at Cardiff.

Cos he's of Indian heritage, as well, isn't he?

He is. Unfortunately, a chap sitting behind us shouted,

"Eff off, Chopra, you half Paki," sort of thing.

You do always good it when you attend matches.

Sometimes it's not actually thrown at you,

but you can just tell that there's something there,

-that race is still an issue there.

-OK.

But there have been other times when we have been to places,

"You are this," or, "You are that."

Do you think it is this covert racism,

this under-the-surface racism that means

there aren't as many black and ethnic-minority fans

-as there could be at matches?

-Definitely.

Some of my own family members,

my aunties and uncles who have never been to a football game

and do not know what happens at a football game,

"Be safe, don't get into any trouble,

"you know what the hooligans are like," and stuff.

20 or 30 years of reputation where the game was seen to be associated

with hooliganism and racism, I think that stains on people's minds.

Today was fantastic. What an enjoyable day.

It was a perfect example of how to improve diversity and relationships

between different cultures, under this banner of football.

After 20 or 30 years of racism and hooliganism that has been rife

throughout football, the memories last long in their community.

It is hard to break those barriers down and get the younger generations

and more of the ethnic-minority communities onto the terraces.

'I was not even born, I was only a kid,

'when racism and hooliganism tarnished English football

'in the '70s and '80s.

'Football matches could be very violent.

'Far-right racist groups were part of the terraces.

'Black players were a minority, and suffered shocking racial abuse.

'I have always been aware of this history in football,

'but know very little about it.

'Delving into the game's dark past has stirred up

'something close to home.'

-Hello! Hey, Dad.

-How are you doing?

-You all right?

-I'm good, thanks.

Good to see you.

'Back then, my dad used to watch football on the terraces.'

-Hiya! Are you OK?

-I'm good, thank you.

'He has always loved the game,

'and has followed my career very closely.'

-Do you remember that one, Clarke?

-Brilliant, yeah.

This is when I made the big time,

my first professional contract at Blackpool, £200 a week!

Get in there!

'Once a semi-pro player,

'he never succeeded in making the step up to the professional game.

'Today, he's a school caretaker.'

When Clarke made it as a footballer,

he made his first appearance as a professional

I couldn't have been a prouder parent.

I remember seeing him playing for the England Under-21s. It was fantastic.

Absolutely fantastic to see him do that.

'He never talked to me about going into football,

'and he never once took me to a match when I was growing up.

'I want to know why.'

Did you experience any kind of racism, then,

or racial abuse growing up, Dad?

Of course. I experienced racism quite a bit, yeah.

But it was something I never talked about.

I never told anybody about it or talked to anybody about it.

I just endured it, like a lot of us did.

I couldn't take you on football matches in those days.

That was going to be one of my questions.

-Is that why you didn't bring me to a game?

-Very much so.

What were some of the terms you used to hear around the terraces

or when you were getting abused?

-Clarke, do you really want me to say?

-Yeah, this is real, Dad.

This was what you had to hear and put up with.

You'd hear them all - "Nigger," "Black bastard," "You wog."

The abuse was all around you, Clarke.

Again, this is another reason why I wouldn't take you on a match.

It used to upset me, hearing the players getting the abuse.

That was just how it was in those days, going to football matches.

It wasn't just when he was watching matches, Clarke,

it was when he was playing them as a footballer.

-He got racial abuse as well.

-From players?

From playing. I got head-butted, kicked, stamped on.

That has happened to me in football matches. And the ref could hear this,

my coaches who were with me could hear it, and nobody did a thing.

Nobody did a thing.

You know, that almost put me off football for life.

If I came up against that on a pitch, I don't know what I'd do.

Do you feel that your race played a part

in your progression in football, Dad?

-Blatantly, it stood against you.

-I had wondered about it.

And I have thought, "I wonder what would have happened

"and what would have become of me.

"Would I have ended up playing professional football?"

It didn't happen for me. That's the way life goes sometimes.

I think there's a part of you personally

that doesn't want to think it's because of that

that it could have blocked a career in football,

because that was your dad's dream.

He left school believing he would be a professional footballer.

It was all I wanted to do.

What's happening?!

Stirring things up in me as I'm talking about this stuff.

Definitely the most striking thing he said was that

he has been so alone, all this time.

The fact that my dad did that without passing on his grievances

and his apprehensions to me, I think that's a phenomenal thing.

That's enabled me to grow and develop

without preconceived fears and apprehensions.

Whether they are still there or not...

But my mind was free to focus on my own ability

instead of what potential barriers there may be.

I've always known that racism has been a problem in society,

but never been more aware of it than I am today.

'Unlike my dad's era, today, roughly a quarter

'of all professional players in England are black or mixed race.'

# We keep going Don't stop running... #

'But I've hardly ever played

'with or against anyone with Pakistani,

'Indian or Bangladeshi blood.

'We have a big population with this background in England

'but only two players have ever reached the top division.

'To try and understand why this is, I'm visiting Luton -

'home of a large Pakistani community.'

Come on Abul!

'I've come to watch a local club coached by Butch Fazal.'

Well, we're just watching Butch's under-14 side here -

100% South Asian players

and they are wiping the floor with this poor team from Dunstable.

Not like usual youth team football where it's just

the bigger team, the stronger team,

because they're just playing pure soccer.

The composure of the kids in defence I'm learning from.

And I think it's 6-0 already.

Asians can play football.

Play it, Rahin. Relax. Relax!

Good boy. Good boy.

'For the last 30 years, Butch has been campaigning more than anyone

'to get more Asian players on to the books of professional clubs.

'He has brought along two of his former star players

'who haven't made the grade.

'Before injury put the brakes on his career,

'Husnane Shah went for a trial at a professional club.'

Straight after the whole trial,

my dad was having a chat with

one of the guys who was obviously scouting.

He was a black guy who spoke to my dad and he said to him,

-"I've been specifically employed to not take on Asian people."

-What?

As soon as I heard that, my heart started beating fast,

like that's the doors closed for me now.

And everyone knew that I had talent.

I mean I used to be top goal scorer every season.

-I scored 86, like 84 goals in a season, Butch?

-Yes.

I remember I used to dominate the field.

84 goals in a season is just incomprehensible.

Have you been given a fair crack of the whip?

-Never gave me a chance.

-You're the skipper of the county team?

Yes, skipper of the county team.

And I just feel like I've been like the short straw.

Like I was the person that never got the chance to get anywhere.

I find it quite unbelievable that the captain of a county team

has not got a chance at a club.

It... It's unheard of.

Virtually, if I go back through my county team

and the county teams that I played against,

I can tell you that virtually every single player was at a club.

I find that utterly ludicrous that the captain of a county team

has not had... You've not had a way in at any club?

I've been captain for everything I've played for.

I've always been of the thought until I started

this documentary, that if you were good enough you'd get your chance.

How can that be true and then Asians be discriminated against?

-How does that work?

-Racism.

-That's all it is.

That's what I truly believe, is what you just said now,

is that it all comes down to racism then.

That's all I can say. It's as simple and straightforward as racism.

Everyone says, "You're not going to make it cos you're brown." Everyone.

I've been asked, "Are you sure? Are you sure you're not wasting your time?"

There's brilliant players but they're just not given a chance.

How come they're given a chance in cricket but when it's football it's totally different?

And all we want is a level playing field.

And when that day happens, and I know things are happening slowly,

but when that day happens then you will see that Asian generation.

It just seems like the South Asian man is fighting the fight

that black minority players were fighting years ago.

You know, here are two guys who have blatant and obvious talent.

One lad, Joe, he's the captain of district teams, county teams,

every club team he's been at, yet he'll sit there

at 18 years of age and tell me he's got no chance in football.

I find that utterly astounding.

They just face a brick wall.

How can you have such an untapped resource

just through prejudicial discrimination?

'As I learn more about English football's racial problems I'm keen

'to get some perspective and to see how they compare to other countries.

'So I'm visiting Poland before it hosts the European Championships.

'I'm heading to the city of Krakow,

'to check out the fierce derby match between Wisla Krakow and Cracovia.'

# Don't play a game I can't win. #

There have been well documented problems with racism over in Poland.

I'm going on a tour of the Wisla Krakow

and the Cracovia neighbourhoods to try and find

all this anti-Semitic graffiti that I've heard so much about.

'Because Cracovia has a historical connection with Jews,

'some Wisla fans still target their rivals with anti-Semitic slurs.'

This is an example of the anti-Semitic graffiti

I've been warned about.

It's quite easy to understand. It says anti-Jew.

'Rival hooligans from the two clubs have even murdered each other.

'Which leaves me a bit uneasy about going to the match.

'A few hours before kick-off, the Cracovia fans

'gather in the centre of the city for a police escort to Wisla's ground.'

CHANTING

It's really starting to heat up now.

All the fans are lighting flares as we're coming down the street

and letting off noisy fireworks.

CHANTING AND BANGS

It's getting very interesting. Very interesting.

FIREWORKS BANG

Especially when you're in a minority of one.

IN TRANSLATION:

'Before going into the stadium,

'I catch up with a local police spokesman.'

Do you think Polish football has a problem with racism

and anti-Semitism?

So do you think I'll hear any racist or anti-Semitic

chanting in here tonight?

CHANTING

'However soon after kick-off,

'a black Cracovia player is targeted by a minority of home fans.'

JEERING AND BOOING

ALMOST DROWNED OUT BY CHANTS:

'Then just before half time, trouble kicks off in the stands.

'Later, some of the home supporters taunt their rivals.'

CHANTING

Coming to this game today and hearing a black player on the pitch

racially abused, monkey chants, is just shocking.

It's the first time I have ever physically encountered

racial abuse in a football ground.

Um, it... I just find it utterly incomprehensible.

It goes back to '70s and '80s and days that my dad talked about.

'My experience in Poland has shown just how much has been done

'to kick overt racism out of English stadiums.

'But it's also highlighted that anti-Semitism

'in the English game is rarely talked about.'

There was a word beginning with N that some football fans used to shout...

'Last year, the charity Kick It Out released this film

'to highlight how freely the word Yid is used around football

'in reference to Tottenham Hotspur's Jewish following.'

For some reason a lot of fans still shout this word and it begins with Y.

CHANTING: Yiddo Yiddo Yiddo Yiddo Yiddo...

What they're chanting is a racist word for Jews, the Y word.

'I'm meeting its producer, David Baddiel...'

Thank you so much for letting us into your house.

'..a Jewish comedian and writer.'

Why did you launch your Y word campaign?

What was that focused on?

The experience of being a Chelsea fan,

over the years I got very used to - me and my brother were both Jewish -

got very used to the fact that whenever Spurs play us, or indeed

when there's any mention of Spurs, they start singing anti-Spurs songs and anti-Spurs chants.

They are often built around the word Yiddo

and associated anti-Semitic chants like Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz.

And I've always hated it.

I've always thought it's incredibly uncomfortable for me as any other

Jew who might be a Chelsea fan and also I can't bear the fact that

it's sort of like gone on as if it's kind of acceptable

when we're supposed to have zero tolerance towards attitude towards racism.

As it is, we just put up with it.

In the '70s, Spurs suffered anti-Semitic racism

That led to them adopting the word Yiddo as a badge of honour.

And the problem with that is that most Spurs fans aren't Jewish

so they don't really have a right to re-appropriate that word in that way.

What you are talking about is if you imagine that

there was a club in Brixton, say it exists, it existed in the '70s

and because it existed in Brixton, they were called

the niggers by racists in the '70s and it was a mainly white club,

so they embraced the term and now they're still out there singing it.

Imagine it. Imagine there's a mainly white stadium shouting nigger or nig army

and they think positively, that club would be shut down tomorrow.

Tomorrow! Yesterday. Exactly. That's the point.

And this is what's happening at Tottenham Hotspur.

That is what's happening when they sing Yid armies.

Non-Jews using a race-hate word for Jews in their minds positively.

Do you feel that clubs have an appetite to really challenge anti-Semitism?

A bit more than they did after the film.

Um, there was a specific problem with Spurs which is that they knew

that their fans would react against any outlawing of that word on the terraces.

And they were keen to suggest that the word itself was technically

not a racist word so we're not going to stop our fans chanting it.

Obviously this is all bullshit.

What they mean is we don't know how to stop our fans chanting it.

And I understand that's difficult but that is the truth.

Everything else is, you know, bollocks.

I'd just been saying to my brother who we did this film with,

we are on our way to Chelsea, "I think it's got better.

"The film's had some impact and I think we won't hear such bad racism."

And literally at that moment, I heard some people chanting I'd rather be a Paki than a Yid.

I thought, "Well, maybe I'm wrong about that.

"Maybe it's had no impact at all."

Apart form anything else, racist chanting is against the law.

'While supporting all efforts to kick anti-Semitism

'out of football and recognising the sensitivity of the word Yid,

'Tottenham argue that its fans' use of this word does not justify

'the deliberately offensive abuse of some opposing fans.'

'I set out on this journey after John Terry was charged with

'racism in a criminal court and stripped of the England captaincy.

'Although Terry would be cleared of all charges,

'I've discovered so much else about my industry.'

Obviously I'd heard of these different problems of discrimination

and racism within football but I didn't realise how far they went.

Er, you know,

the problems that I'm seeing as we delve into this about anti-Semitism.

Going from talking to my dad about things in my own life

I wasn't even aware of, to parts of our game,

especially at grass roots level, where these problems are,

they really are big barriers for guys to get over.

And do you think you should have known more about them

as the PFA chairman?

This is something I've been asking myself

because as chairman of the players' union I would expect myself

to have a real understanding of what's going on in the game.

And if these are problems that are stopping

lads from getting into the professional side of the game,

then it is definitely something that I should be aware of.

'There is one undeniable racial barrier in football, the big jobs.

'I'm one of around 25% of current players who are black.

'So how come there are only three black managers

'out of 92 professional clubs?'

-A deflection and it's an easy goal for John Barnes.

-Gone to his left.

Still Barnes! That's a fabulous individual goal!

'John Barnes is one of England's greatest ever footballers.

CHEERING

'In spite of suffering shocking racial abuse as a player,

'he won numerous trophies with Liverpool and nearly 80 caps for England.'

This way, gents, please.

But after this glittering career on the pitch,

he struggled to find work as a manager.

Today he is leading the fight to get more black people

into positions of power off the pitch.

Passive racism is an unconscious feeling you have,

based on what you have been told.

If I was white, I would be a passive racist,

because of all the images, the rhetoric and literature I have read about black people.

I am meeting John at the

International Slavery Museum in Liverpool, near his home.

Sacked from his first job as manager after just eight months,

John waited over eight years for his next job.

Do you believe a white manager

would have had to wait so long for his next appointment?

Firstly, I think white managers are given longer to fail,

because as soon as you lose a couple of matches, you are out.

It's almost as if they don't believe in you in the first place,

but they have given you the job,

and then when you are not successful straightaway it is like, that is

what we thought anyway, so here we go, rather than sticking with them,

either from the point of view of being given time by the fans,

the players, by the hierarchy.

And of course to get back in,

-it's always easier if you are white to get back in as well.

-How do you prove that?

You can't, because you have the owner of a football club,

you can't tell him who he has to interview,

and even if he has to interview you he doesn't have to give you the job,

so you can't prove it.

How do you explain the lack of black managers? What do you think it's down to?

I always look at racism in two ways -

overt racism, which is how it was 30 years ago, doing what they're doing,

and passive racism, which is what we see now,

whereby we don't see lots of people doing it, but people still feel that way but you can't prove it.

The problem we have is that a chairman may say,

"I am not giving him the job, not because he is black,

"but because I don't think he is good enough."

But then if he was asking himself, "Why don't I think he's good enough?"

it would be because he's black, but that's in his subconscious.

That is where the passive racism comes in which a lot of people have,

based on their perception of the capabilities of black people generally.

Talking with John was really interesting. He is adamant

that the lack of black managers in football

reflects the lack of black people in senior positions in society,

but in delving into this topic more,

it's made me realise that we have a ready-made talent pool here,

to promote into management positions.

We need to be doing more about this as an industry,

proactively as well,

even if that does mean introducing quotas

so that every club has to interview

a certain number of black or ethnic minority individuals

for each position that is available, then it's a start.

Near my club, there is a memorial to Walter Tull,

one of the first black professional footballers to have played in Britain.

You know, Black Britain in the 1900s,

not only did he become a professional footballer

and break down those barriers,

but the first commissioned black officer,

and went to war for his country.

That's utterly astounding. It really is quite sobering to think

about the difference in the plight that Walter Tull would have had,

his experience playing for Northampton back in 1911,

and then, mine now in 2012. You know?

I am quite ignorant to it all,

to the plight of the individual black man

around the nation today.

I am learning every day. Every person that I talk to

is opening my eyes and my mind to a completely different side...

..of life.

Completely different.

I'm wondering what people outside my industry

think of its racial problems,

so I'm meeting a leading anti-racism campaigner.

I think Madonna is doing a lot for the country,

because when she got David, she donated £1.5 million to the orphanage he came from,

and others criticised that and said she has actually gone to Africa

to buy a black child for £1.5 million.

And someone said, "Surely you find that offensive?"

I was, like, "Not really, I find it exciting,

"because I've got two black kids at home."

LAUGHTER

Ava Vidal is an established comedienne

and a patron of the charity, Show Racism The Red Card.

I know you're interested in football.

What do you see from the outside?

When it comes to racism, there is a massive culture of denial.

And I think it's worse in football.

When you're watching the game, especially an international game,

very often, the commentators really upset me

with the way they speak about African players.

A lot of these African players actually play in Europe,

but suddenly, when they are representing an African team,

they are often described as naive.

And that is just an extension of a stereotype

that exists outside football, that black people are just

pure brute strength, and fit and strong but we are simple in the mind.

This is something that John Barnes alluded to when we talked to him,

how this unconscious racism is in society, not just football.

Would you agree that football is reflective of society,

or is it different?

I think football is reflective of society.

It does transcend class, colour, religion, creed, whatever,

it should be pioneering things when it applies to race,

which they're not doing because they are comfortable.

And they're comfortable because nobody is really objecting.

I remember speaking about John Terry on stage.

And they were racially abusing me and going, "We love John Terry",

and they started, the whole way through going, "Chelsea, Chelsea",

and I was like, see ya. And I just walked off.

And they were like, "Hey, she didn't do her set,

"that's not fair. We paid to see that."

And I was like, I do not get paid to tolerate that.

I want to put Ava's views to some big-name English black players,

but with John Terry's historic trial looming,

it's not proving easy to get them to talk about racism within the game.

I thought that because I was chairman of the players' union,

and a fellow professional,

lads would be more comfortable taking up the offer

of a platform with which to voice their views.

But even though people really want things to change,

it seems that no-one wants to take up the mantle themselves.

I got hold of a current England international,

and asked him to take part,

and he was reluctant to.

He sent me an e-mail back saying,

"I believe it might hinder me getting into the squad

"if the FA catch wind of it, funny as that might sound."

It seems that no-one wants to rock the boat.

Rightly or wrongly, these guys think

it's going to have an effect on their career.

'Then at last, I get a breakthrough.'

It's been really hard to get any big-name, Premier League

English footballers on the film,

but one's agreed to talk to me now, so I'm going to go and meet him.

'Jermaine Jenas has been a Premiership star for ten years.

'Currently at high-flying Tottenham Hotspur,

'he's also played over 20 times for England.'

Why do you think some black players are so reluctant

to talk about racism in the game?

Racism's a sensitive issue

and I think you do have to be quite articulate to deal with it.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

It can be easy for your point to be misconstrued.

Especially coming from footballers because people listen and...

their views are magnified.

You know what it's like. Say one thing, the world knows, seen it on Twitter.

Have you ever experienced racism in your career?

Um, yes. Yeah.

Mainly across Europe, when I've been playing for England.

-OK.

-I can probably honestly say

I haven't received any in England at all.

OK. So, what kind of forms did that come across in those games?

Monkey chants.

You black this, you black that. You name it. I think in England

they've done a good job of stamping out a lot of racism in football.

Although, it's still there. There's no denying that

and I don't foresee the day that it won't be there.

What needs to be done is just more people saying

what they actually feel,

rather than being scared to actually go out there

and make their points be known on racism.

It's an issue, simply as that.

And we need to crack down on it.

We can use football in a positive way.

'I bring up the funding of Kick It Out,

'football's best-known anti-racism charity,

'who I sometimes do work for.'

The campaign Kick It Out runs on

an annual budget of less than half a million pounds a year.

-Is that enough?

-No, it's not.

I have my own charity back in Nottingham. Obviously, I know

how much work these charities take and how hard it is to run.

I didn't know that was your budget. I think that you do

very well on that. Given the amount of money the Premier League earns...

I think the Premier League's just been awarded 3.1 billion.

-A mill' wouldn't hurt, would it?

-I'm sure they wouldn't miss it!

THEY LAUGH

Suarez got eight games.

What do you think John Terry should get

if he's found guilty of this alleged offence?

-The problem that we have is there's a precedent been set now.

-Yeah.

So if John Terry gets any more than the seven or eight games,

then it's going to be looked at as very harsh.

Should it be the same across the board now they've set that precedent

or are some things worse than others?

-To me, racism is racism.

-Yeah.

-Simple as that. Plain and simple.

There isn't that type of level or that type of level

in terms of different words you've used or in what context you've used it.

If you're racist, you're racist

and it all should be dealt with accordingly.

If John Terry is found guilty of that situation,

which has still to be sorted out,

then I'm sure that he would learn from it.

OK. Very non-committal!

HE LAUGHS

There's not much to say cos it's still an ongoing thing. Exactly.

I can't sit here and bear judgment on someone that's not been found guilty.

Absolute pleasure. Thank you very much.

'It's now just days until John Terry's trial,

'but months since I began looking into football's racial problems.

'It's time to get the view from the top.'

Just on my way to Wembley,

headquarters of the FA, England's national governing body in football,

to speak to them about some of the issues that have struck me

over the past four months.

'Brendon Batson was a pioneering black player back in the '70s.

'These days, he is the FA's leading adviser on racial issues.'

I'll get straight to the point,

25% of our players in football in England are black.

Why are these numbers not represented in the positions

of real authority and decision in football?

I've been asked that question so many times...

I really don't have the answer.

I do think there seems to be a lack of appetite in employing

black players to become coaches and managers.

We've seen a few years ago,

we had about four or five black managers in the football league.

We don't see those numbers any more. We've got three...

One in the Premiership, obviously. In numbers, we're going backwards.

This is going to be a long-term project.

We need to see more black coaches getting higher qualifications

and then being given opportunities to work within mainstream football.

One current England player told me that he thought speaking out

about racism in football would directly affect

his selection chances for the Euros.

-What do you say to that?

-I think that's nonsense.

I think that wouldn't be the case.

So I would say to any player, if they've got something to say,

black or white, come forward and say it.

Without that, we can't move the process forward.

We've done so much to get overt racism out of our game,

but what I've heard about is the covert racism.

You know, the innuendo, the glass ceilings.

Do you believe that we do enough

to really go out hell-for-leather against racism?

We should be proud of what's been achieved over the years.

But yes, we want to keep progressing.

I know from my own experiences that revolutions are a thing of the past,

so we have to take things very, very slowly. It is a conservative sport.

But it needs a current crop of players to tell us what they want

and how they want to see these anti-racism campaigns develop.

'Finally, John Terry's day in court arrives

'and all eyes are on him.'

REPORTER: His reputation at stake, the Chelsea star...

England footballer John Terry has appeared in court...

John Terry denies the charge but the prosecution...

After a five-day trial,

Terry is cleared of racially abusing an opponent.

Whilst John Terry has been found innocent of the charge against him,

I really think this trial has brought the whole issue of racism

front and centre once again.

And that's given us a real opportunity to combat

all the racial issues that I've come across while making this film.

It's not just one person's sole remit to solve all these problems.

We all need to do more...

the clubs, the authorities and especially the players.

That means me especially, being chairman of the Players' Union.

I've realised that I've been part of the problem

because I didn't fully understand the reality out there.

I've learned a lot about my identity.

I've learnt a lot about the different issues affecting the game.

Hopefully, that'll give me a new purpose

in trying to help move things forward.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd