Sexism in Football?

So I've come to the Etihad Stadium tonight,

because there's a meeting of the WIFs -

Women In Football - an organisation that's been going about five years.

They've never courted publicity, never had any publicity.

I've no idea what is up for debate, or what's on the agenda,

or really why they exist, so I think, for that very reason,

and the fact they operate under the radar, it's worth us taking a look.

'Course they don't. The game's gone mad!'

-I wasn't surprised.

-I wasn't surprised.

I don't think any women in football was shocked by that.

It didn't sound like it was the end of the world.

-'..complaining about sexism?

-Yeah!

-Do me a favour, love!'

And, actually, it was the real derogatory tone

that really annoyed me. And I think anybody who judges

anybody's talent purely on gender, that's fundamentally wrong.

It was the sexism scandal that made headlines around the world...

The two Sky Sports presenters caught making sexist remarks

about a female match official have apologised.

..and led to the exit of two of football's highest profile presenters.

Andy Gray said he was devastated at losing a job he loved.

I wasn't as shocked as the public seemed to be.

People think that maybe the public are behind the curve. They're not.

If I'm honest, I think I've probably experienced worse over the years.

Who's got the confidence to stand up when a well-known TV presenter

says to you, in front of 20 people, "How many Premier League footballers have you slept with?"

But it can sometimes be intimidating

to speak out if you're a woman in a man's world.

-No-one wants to be the whistleblower.

-For the past six months,

I've been speaking to some of the most powerful women in the game.

This old boy put his glasses on, and looked at me, "Oh, yes! You're that woman."

Hearing their experiences

and trying to tell the real story about sexism in football.

You ain't got a dick, but you have got great big balls.

In January of last year,

a number of off-air comments made by Sky Sports presenters

Andy Gray and Richard Keys brought the subject of sexism to the fore.

I genuinely didn't think...

"Ooh, Sky is a bad place or those people are bad people."

I just thought, "That's what happens and they've got caught out."

Honestly, my first reaction was, "There but for the grace of God."

And I defy any broadcaster

to go, "We have never said anything." Not sexist or racist,

but just something that could come back and catch us out.

Charlotte? Just tuck that in?

ANDY LAUGHS

I think the Charlotte Jackson piece, particularly,

had an undertow of real sinister...

Charlotte, I don't know her,

but I know that she is a very capable and able woman.

It was the fact that she felt unable to respond.

-I apologised on the Sunday.

-'He was bleating on about the fact'

that he tried to phone me to apologise to me, and I should be

sitting around waiting for his call, because I don't have enough to do.

And the fact that I didn't take his call was somehow my fault.

I couldn't believe there was such a hoo-ha about it, because that's...

That's "banter", that's what happens.

When you heard, or you saw the story break about Richard Keys and Andy Gray,

and the various incidents that came out from Sky, what were your thoughts on that?

Er, well, I just, er... just it was, um...

You know, I'd just seen it, um...

HE LAUGHS Good question, Gabby.

It is a good question, um,

you know, I think the thing for people like me is, you know,

in this climate we live in,

even now you panic at what to say, not because it's a woman or a man,

because you're just scared of saying the wrong thing and I think that's how football is.

I think it was lucky for us that they were caught on camera,

because I think things changed now

and I think people are a lot more aware of what they're saying and...

society are a lot more aware of maybe how it is in our industry.

Neither Richard Keys or Andy Gray

choose to take part in the making of this programme,

but Richard Keys was not the first person to make

unwelcome remarks about Karren Brady.

She's been at boardroom level

since 1993, when she became the first female managing director

of a football club at the age of just 23.

So, turning up to my first press conference, with shoulder pads

and earrings, sort of big hair and giving this sort of really

professional presentation to the masses of press that were interested

in this young woman and when I finished, I said, "Any questions?"

And this hand went up and I said, "Yes, sir?"

He said, "What are your vital statistics?"

-LAUGHTER

-And I thought, "Oh...

"Here we go! That's the only thing they're interested in."

She's hard, she's tough, she's the managing director of Birmingham City.

Please welcome Karren Brady. CHEERING

'Everybody's got an anecdote'

about being mistaken for a WAG or a tea lady

or some crude innuendo. That's fine. Most people can laugh those off.

FANS CHANT

Anna Kessel hears a lot about the issues women face,

not only because she writes about football for The Guardian and The Observer,

but also because she's a co-founder of the Women In Football group.

We've had stories of much, much more serious abuses.

Physical abuse at work, sexual harassment, discrimination.

Really upsetting stuff.

This is the first time I've actually openly spoken about it.

The gentleman in question sort of looked at me and said,

"You can't come in, no women allowed here." I thought he was joking,

particularly because it was so timely after the Keys and Gray,

we're talking two or three days later, I think.

And I really thought he was joking, so kind of I laughed and kind of

gave him a little elbow, "Thanks very much."

And he said, "No, I'm serious, no women allowed. Get out."

Vicky Kloss is one of two women

in Manchester City's six-person executive team.

Last year, she was the subject of physical abuse.

'"You've let my male colleague in.'

"I'm his boss. You've let him and not me.

And he said, "Well, he can go too," and we were physically thrown out.

I was physically pushed up against a wall and thrown out.

-So you didn't get down to...?

-As the players and manager came off

and trooped into the dressing room, myself and head of media relations,

both of us were on the other side of the door, not in the tunnel,

not being where we needed to be to do our job.

If thousands of fans at a game shout racist abuse,

there is a law to protect that person that's being abused.

A TV female reporter who thousands of fans were shouting "Slut" at her,

there's no legal recourse for that.

I think, "Oh, God, there's a book in there somewhere. Maybe a film."

I think, if you heard most of the stories that couldn't be told,

I think it would shock a lot of people.

COMMENTATOR: 'We have a line lady today. Sian Massey.

'Derby captain, Robbie Savage, has had a go at her twice now

'for missing what he considers have been offside decisions.'

And I thought, "Wow, you know,

"she must be brave," cos running the line in front of a hostile crowd,

you know, as a woman, must be an intimidating place

and fair play to her for sticking her neck out there and doing it.

People have felt a need to, um...

highlight maybe that Sian Massey has been the assistant referee at a game

and then highlighted, virtually within the same breath,

"And she did very well."

I used to see her in her outfit and I just had a go at the outfit.

-I didn't care if it was a man or a woman...

-That's just you.

You just have a go at what people are wearing.

Yeah, it was just looking across, I didn't think,

-"That's Sian Massey, I'm going to curb my, my, um..."

-Behaviour?

"..behaviour towards her, cos she's a woman." I give a volley of abuse,

like I would if it was a man, because that was her job.

Like other referee's assistants, who are in

their first full year of officiating at the top level, Sian Massey

isn't allowed to speak to the media about any of her experiences.

It's noticeable that the majority of the women

who've spoken openly to me have been in the game quite a while.

Vikki Orvice became the first female staff football writer on a tabloid

when she was appointed at The Sun in the early 90s.

I think, only twice did a manager

during a press conference say something

designed to humiliate me or...

What was that? Do you remember?

-One was really unrepeatable.

-Really?

-Yeah.

-In front of other journalists?

-Yeah.

Sexism's an interesting one,

because it's almost as if it's accepted in football,

whereas homophobia now isn't.

If somebody's sexist in football,

it's like, "That's football, they're old school, they can't help it, it's OK,"

whereas if somebody's racist in football, that's no longer accepted.

And the manager said, "She probably likes men talking dirty to her."

And we were in a really tiny, tiny sort of press room and, again,

I remember just shutting up and getting on with it.

But my point that I made was not, in my column that was referred to,

was not about "sexism" per se, it was about the way that,

you know, "What's a woman doing here? What does a woman know?"

Sort of that sort of dinosaur mentality that I was referring to.

-That you still encountered to write about it last year.

-Yeah, even 20 years in

and still, um... you know, I'm a woman.

'Yes, we're women and I guess we do stand out

'when we're outnumbered by men,

'but it shouldn't really mean we're treated any differently, should it?'

I was pregnant with you, but nobody knew.

But why don't you have a fat tummy?

'I had my children six years ago and I was desperate to be pregnant,'

I had to go through IVF to get pregnant, so, when I got pregnant,

I was most scared about telling my new boss I was pregnant

and his reaction was I can only say disappointment.

He looked shocked and said, "I thought you were going to tell me that."

I think that that's what makes women bosses so much, um,

so much easier to work for,

because, actually, the world doesn't stop when you have a baby.

I think people found it quite, um,

interesting that I was going to have babies and was working in football.

-That seems to be the gist of a lot of...

-It must have been tiring?

-Do you think it was?

-Yeah.

-It was, actually, Lois, it was really tiring.

It was tiring working and carrying two babies, I'll tell you,

but you went to some interesting football matches.

Various things came flooding back to me about a Champions League round

and a large section of the Manchester United fans

started singing, "Get your tits out."

And we just thought we'd just carrying on watching the game

and pretend that the glass is so thick we can't hear them.

And so, even though they were the thick ones,

and so we carried on watching the game and thinking

that Sir Bobby, bless him, who was probably about 72 at the time,

wasn't hearing this, cos he never said anything.

So we were watching the game and, eventually,

Sir Bobby just stands up, pulls his top up...

-LAUGHTER

-..and starts doing that.

And Ali and I almost died.

'I think it was about this time, sitting here and sharing stories

'with other women in football that they obviously related to,

'that I decided that this should not just be a programme

'that reflected a problem, it should try and encourage a change.

'and, suddenly, I felt a great sense of relief.'

When I started presenting at Sky in 1996,

Delia Smith had just become a director at Norwich City and, within a year,

Wendy Toms became the first female match official in the Premier League.

Nowadays, women account for a quarter of the crowd at matches

and a third of armchair fans.

But getting to the top still isn't easy.

Just ask the most powerful woman in football - Karen Espelund.

And don't hesitate to ask. I mean, you are advising a lot of people.

It is a lifetime opportunity for these young players...

Last year, Karen became the first woman to make it onto UEFA's executive committee.

But when she first started playing the game, it wasn't even legal.

'The Norwegian FA, they...'

officially accepted women's football back in '76

and I'm born in '61, so the first 15 years of my life,

football was not allowed for women and girls to play.

At UEFA, Karen is responsible for both the men's and women's game.

I work very hard the first years, because you had to prove your competence,

or at least I put that pressure on myself, but you had to also.

-I must admit that I still play football, so...

-Oh, really?

Yes, I'm a league champion in the veterans league back in my home town last season.

Here in Cardiff, she's checking on progress ahead of

Wales hosting next year's women's under-19s European Championships.

I've been the one woman alone in the ExCo of Norway,

I've been there together with three others, and I've seen the difference.

For example, when I came here to West Ham,

there were no senior women. And the first thing I did

was bring three senior people into the business

and they happened to all be women

and that created, I think, a much more balanced

and diverse environment, different people, different perspectives,

-different ideas, challenges.

-What do women bring to a board?

They bring a different perspective.

The truth is that men and women are different

and we should celebrate those differences.

-Nice to see you.

-Nice to see you.

-This is my daughter, who is Karen as well.

-Hello, Karen.

'Our association has taken on many more women recently.'

As far as I'm concerned, they are absolutely some of the best people

that we have employed at the Football Association of Wales.

-You play football?

-Sometimes.

-Sometimes, that's good.

How important was that to you, then, to drive them into those positions?

Very important to me. You know, I take the view,

if you're the first woman anything, whatever that is,

it's your responsibility,

a door's been held open for you and I saw it

as my responsibility to hold that door open for all the other women.

-Do you want Daddy's job one day?

-Yeah.

-Do you think you'll do a better job than Daddy?

-Yeah.

'Sexism, to me,'

in football, it's like it's the final discriminatory act that is,

-not only exists, but is deemed acceptable to exist.

-Is tolerated?

Yeah, you could, quite happily,

without any action being taken against you, say to someone,

"What do you know? You're a woman."

I'm one of those people with thick skin. It doesn't really bother me.

It gets more difficult as your kids get older and they can

read Twitter and horrible things that people write about you.

That's the sort of... That is a disappointment, really.

My son says, "Well, you're not that fat, Mum!"

-SHE LAUGHS

-Which is always quite sweet.

They considered me as, I don't know,

the wife of the president or the mistress or the daughter, whatever.

You didn't become considered as a football person yourself.

Dealing with star performers can be

par for the course if you work in football.

But is handling the big names purely a job for the men?

Jo Tongue is in charge of Radio 5 Live's 606 fan's phone-in show.

So how long do you reckon it'll be once you've got him?

How long will you be to get here? 'We have a slight problem

'in that the car that was picking Robbie up from Anfield'

has had a car crash - Robbie wasn't in the car -

so the car was unable to pick him up,

so we've got an hour and 15 minutes until we're on air.

I'm not panicking yet I'm across everything here.

When he gets here, we'll just have a kind of catch up.

'Jo Tongue to me, um...'

It might sound like I'm being sarcastic,

but like a font of all footballing knowledge,

like from Premier league to Conference,

there's always something in her conversation about football

with Jo that she'll tell you that you didn't know.

'..a goal to West Brom!'

Cool. What number?

Brilliant! So is he in your car?

OK, I'll leave Wigan booed off at half-time and full-time.

You know West Brom have just scored? Perfect!

Will you drop him off before you park?

SHE LAUGHS What a nightmare!

'She probably knows more about football than me.'

Very assertive, she knows what she wants and, you know,

if you're not on the same piece of paper as her,

she'll dismiss you.

She's probably one of the best bosses I've worked for, no question.

She's one of the lads around the table,

as you can see how I am with them all, you know.

Jo's not a man or a woman to me, she's Jo.

As a woman, I can... I don't think I can get away with more with you,

but we can have an argument and it will never get aggressive.

Fair point. I've probably taken more off you, cos you are a woman.

'When I did leave the Beeb for a while, one of senior management'

said to me off the record on the phone, "I often thought,

"if you'd have cut your hair and dyed you hair dark,

"you'd have got a lot further in this place," and that's stayed with me

and I don't know if I consciously act differently, cos I'm now dark

or if people do treat me differently.

I am on this Woman In Football board, but for three years,

we've kept it quiet, so it's just like a support network.

So there's things that happened when I was younger that I would never accept now,

and I don't think they'd talk to me like that now, cos I'm their boss,

but at the time, I didn't really think of it, I just thought, "That's just the way it is."

So me and Gabby were talking. Gabby said she'd walked into an office

and someone said, "How many Premier League footballers have you slept with?"

-And that's not acceptable.

-Yeah.

-But at the time,

I would've thought, "Oh, it's just banter, it's fine.

-"What did I expect? Get on with it."

-Football banter, with men, it is like no other work place.

-Really?

-I don't think so.

-See, I think it's the same as a building site.

-No.

-My friends are architects and work with builders.

-Football's ruthless.

-Do you think?

-The dressing room.

-Really?

-I'm not sure, I've never worked on a building site.

But do you adapt yourself, because now...?

-Is it easier working in athletics to football?

-Oh, yeah.

I mean, I remember, I was chairman of the Athletics Writers' Association...

I mean, again, the Football Writers' Association have never...

I remember one of the first meetings I covered,

being tapped on the shoulder and saying, "If you want any help..."

and I honestly thought they were just doing this,

-cos they were going to stab me in the back.

-Hmm.

Football still, it is still male-dominated

and I just think it's a lot of men still see it as their space,

it's the last bastion, it's what they've got left.

MEN SHOUT

COACH SHOUTS ORDERS

'Football is a male bastion, let's not beat about the bush.'

It is a male environment and there will be male prejudices.

Stereotypes can be hard to break down.

BOYS LAUGH

< Welcome to my world.

Jackie Bass feels well supported working for the Football League

as their Regional Club Partnerships manager.

She loves the responsibility of dealing with over 40 clubs,

but Jackie admits it was a lot harder than previous jobs.

It would be a difficult move to go back to club football now.

Why? What's club football like?

Er, it was difficult for me.

There was a spell about five years ago when I was there, when there was

this flurry of a lot of women being locked out from tunnels,

um, training grounds, pitch-side access,

I've been on the other side of locked doors while press briefings went on,

with a security guard mortifyingly looking at me

and shaking his head and apologising,

because it was the club rule that no women were allowed down there.

I've seen signs saying, "No women beyond this point."

I've missed press conferences, cos I can't get to where I should be,

er, it would take a lot for me to go back to that, I think.

I think, as more and more women come into it, the prejudices break down and break down.

As I say, I'm sure no player that deals with Karren Brady at West Ham

would think twice about dealing with her

in other way than they would with a male chief executive.

I don't consider myself to be an expert and I would never

call the manager and say, "Use the diamond formation..."

-LAUGHTER

-"4-4-2, I think, this week."

They'd all think I'd gone mad.

There were people as well who'd make a big play when I first started of,

"Well, she's never played the game."

And I remember a player overhearing this

and just laughing and pointing up to the press box and saying,

"Well, they're all in the peak of fitness and athleticism!"

Some managers haven't played the game as well at top level,

so if you want to take that argument further, some of the top managers

have never played at any real level of football.

But it's interesting, isn't it?

Some of my male counterparts, really, they're frustrated managers.

-Hmm.

-They go on the team bus in their team tracksuit,

and all of that, and I sit there and laugh and smile.

I say, "This is the expectation at the start of the season.

"This is the budget. I'll help you get the players in.

"The rest is your expertise and you've got to use it."

To commentate on Match Of The Day is a dream job for millions.

Five years ago, the news broke that someone new

was getting a chance to join this illustrious club.

I've been to this ground many times before,

and I'd done plenty of matches here, reporting and commentary.

But it was very different, because this was TV,

so it wasn't the case of coming into the press room for a chat

until I go out and do my preview and then do the game.

I came to this press room... Oh, hello! Sorry.

-This press room is now an office.

-Are you lost?

-Sorry, no!

No, this was the press room that Jacqui came in on her first day.

You're welcome to come in, if you like.

-It's just a quick one.

-Yeah, fine.

-Can I just do a quick...?

-OK.

-Sorry it's a bit of a mess.

-No, don't worry about that.

We're just telling a story of an event, that's all.

That day, I was very self-conscious and I saw a very friendly face

in Nigel Adderley, who was here for 5 Live.

And we just got chatting and he just said, "What on earth is going on?"

I remember when I was at Fulham, I think, Jacqui Oatley was the first woman presenter or commentator

on a Match Of The Day game and there was a lot of talk at the time.

I remember listening to members of the general public ringing up about

why it's the most horrendous thing since mankind, you know, evolved.

They thought there was a shelf with a lot of blonde dolly birds on

and that they'd plucked me off it and plonked me into the commentary box.

-I think some people genuinely thought that.

-'It was unfair coverage.'

Coverage that wouldn't be given to a male commentator

coming to Match Of The Day for the first time, who'd be given a chance

to build his way up the Match Of The Day batting order

and I think Jacqui, therefore, had to go in and hit the ground running

and I really didn't think that was fair how it came out.

Jacqui did very well. There was a lot of talk about it outside.

But she did well. We presented her with a Fulham shirt with her name.

So I'd got the team news in the tunnel

and I'd picked up a nice T-shirt for myself.

-LAUGHTER A new Fulham shirt.

-Comments from the crowd?

I do remember somebody coming over and asking for my autograph...

-I know you get that all the time, Gab!

-No, no!

-But on a match day, when you've got your clipboard...

-Yeah.

ANNOUNCEMENT BEGINS

I was just really uncomfortable with it, just because...

it wasn't supposed to be like... THEY LAUGH

And after all the publicity this week, the moment has finally come

for a little piece of history on Match Of The Day.

For the first time ever, Lawrie Sanchez took charge

of his Fulham side at a game at Craven Cottage.

Also making her debut - commentator Jacqui Oatley.

'One of the most important games at the Cottage for years.

'Only a win will do for Fulham, with two of their remaining...'

When I first started on the radio, I was considered to be something

of a commentary freak, but I think it's essential to be different.

Why be bland? Why be sameish all the time?

And the fact that her voice was a female voice shouldn't count against her.

'The referee's Graham Poll.'

And I kind of peered over and I saw him -

and I'd never met him before - and he looked up and he went, "Good luck!"

I just remember thinking, "This is very strange."

I think what Jacqui could've done with was a second female

come in along to commentate somewhere on the networks.

It must be very, very difficult banging your head against the door

of a virtual male excluded domain.

'Lawrie Sanchez makes four changes in the defenders...'

One of my over-riding memories

of being up here and commentating was, from quite early on in the game,

having this strong pain in my stomach and that came from the fact

that I didn't eat for three days, I couldn't eat anything.

My stomach felt like it was in a knot, couldn't take anything in.

I remember actually a friend came over with a bag of shopping, brought me some food! How sad!

I felt like I couldn't leave the house, because I was trying

to get some prep done, but now, my life's completely different.

I'm really lucky, I'm really happy at home

and I have a gorgeous little baby as well.

She becomes a priority, but I'm lucky that I can combine work and that

and maybe you do refocus slightly

and know what's important in life, but, um...

She'll certainly have that to look back on when she's older, won't she?

-What her mum did, you know.

-She's going to be so embarrassed!

-Blazing a trail. She's not.

-She's going to be incredibly proud, I think.

-Yeah, maybe.

-I love this ground.

-It's brilliant, isn't it?

-You chose a great ground.

Originally, I was supposed to be at Watford v Manchester City

and they changed it, for some reason. Anyway...

Fast forward to Monday morning, the back page had a picture of me

with a microphone saying something like, "Play it again, Jacqui.

"Oatley needs a replay." Something like that.

And had a story about how I hadn't done the commentary live

or it hadn't been very good or something,

therefore I'd driven back to Television Centre, written a script

and redubbed the whole eight minutes, which was just simply not true,

but that's something I found really difficult to cope with,

because there was a lot said and written which was completely wrong.

'Jacqui continues to enjoy a successful career

'and she's appeared several more times on Match Of The Day, but I can't help but wonder

'whether her journey in commentary shouldn't have been a lot smoother.'

I remember a game at Birmingham and the crowd were signing

"Karren Brady's a whore" and my late grandmother was there

and she said, "What are they saying?"

I said, "They're saying, 'Karren Brady is 24, Nan.' Don't worry."

And she went, "Oh, that's very nice."

-So...

-She's from the same school of hearing as my mum...

-Yeah!

..who wondered why the crowd wanted to see my teeth.

-LAUGHTER

-Yes, yes.

'During the making of this documentary, I've obviously'

spoken to a lot of women and some of them have told us stories

we couldn't bring to camera, because of the potential repercussions.

One lady has told us a story so harrowing

that we're protecting her identity so that you can hear those claims.

Basically, I was being hit on by someone very high up at the club.

By night, he would proposition me by text. After I'd ignore or decline,

he'd punish me the next day by banning me from another part of the ground.

One of the players called to tell me that the manager

had them in one by one asking them if they'd ever slept with me.

They were looking for anything they could get.

I still regret dropping the case,

cos I felt so strongly about how I'd been treated, but by now,

I was £2,000 down and weighing about 6½ stone from stress.

I didn't have the fight in me

after six months of hell I'd had at the club.

Thankfully, the woman you heard from there has gone on to have

a successful career in football. But it was disturbing

to hear her story and to think there might be more women out there

who are too afraid to speak out, too afraid to tell the truth.

When people said things to me in the past that,

well, I knew at the time, as a girl in her early twenties,

I knew that wasn't right, you know, the overtly sexual comments.

I just didn't want to be the person that looked prudish or complained.

No-one wants to be the whistleblower or the girl

that told a story that means you'll never work in football again,

because I want to work in football forever.

Maybe vicious is too strong a word,

but it was, um, the most testosterone-filled environment

I've worked in before or since

and there were things that happened, or things that were said to me,

that I now regret not acting on, but I was 22 years old and I think,

at that stage in your life, who's got the confidence to stand up

when, for example, a well-known TV presenter says to you in front of a room of 20 people,

"How many Premier League footballers have you slept with?"

Who's got the confidence to say, "I'm reporting you

"for what is clearly an aggressive and overtly sexist statement."

'Maybe I'm from that generation where you just get on with it and,'

you know, the old phrase,

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen,"

and it is noticeable now, when I see the sort of girls coming through,

that they don't...that they are very, very, "I'm not having that."

Absolutely, they should complain, because how do you change anything

if you don't tell the people right at the top

what's happening to you and what you expect to be done as a result of it?

If there is something fundamentally wrong within that organisation,

if your immediate boss doesn't want to know,

tell the shareholders, tell the media, tell the press.

You've got get change to happen.

-Don't be scared. Come on.

-You're not going to bite me, are you?

The biggest compliment that a player could pay me would say,

"She's one of the lads,"

because I've spent 12 years trying to fit in and be accepted,

so to say, "We don't actually see you as a woman," that's...

I'm happy then, because that means I've cracked it,

I've done what I set out to do.

-Definitely.

-I think so.

If we can get you unofficially signed up and you can be our man

at the training ground with your ear to the ground...

'Everyone needs to be in the know and Jackie knits that together,'

throws her ideas around, cos she's been in the game so long.

'She knows what she's talking about.'

We know you have to do the pre- and the post-match,

but I want it to be fun for you, so you don't get bored.

So here's one that Wolves did with Matt Murray,

where he basically dished the dirt on his team-mates. Have a look at this.

"What was the score?" "Yeah, we got what we want. I scored."

"What was your goal like?" "I put in the middle corner(!)"

LAUGHTER That's something you'd be great at,

cos you'd know all the dirt on the players, how you can embarrass them.

You need someone in the thick of it.

'I just thought that football would want me involved.'

I just didn't really think about it, so to then have to overcome

some of the things that I have early on,

it's nice now to be like it's just Jackie.

'Being normal, being bland "Just Jackie, she doesn't stand out" '

is like music to my ears.

-Cool, OK, then, guys. I will leave you to it.

-Thanks, Jackie.

-But that's good.

-I appreciate that, Jack, thanks.

-No problem.

What's stood out for me so far while making this programme is that,

in one form or another, physical and sexual abuse,

as well as discrimination, are all still happening.

And when incidents occur, many women seem afraid to speak out

and I think that's because, if they do, they feel they stand alone.

WIFs came about in 2006,

and I spoke to women in the FA and they said, "This is fantastic!

"Yes, let's bring women together." Um, they went back to their superiors

and had a conversation

and it then came down from the very top of the FA, um...

"We're ever so sorry, but the FA Council," um...

which is 91 men out of 92 members, "..would feel very uncomfortable with

"the idea of getting women together under the umbrella of the FA."

So did they explain why this was going to be so offensive to them?

No. The word used was "uncomfortable",

which I took as a euphemism for "threat".

Things at the FA did eventually move on

and, four years later, they hosted an event for the WIFs.

What's interesting on the FA website,

one of the most interesting pages, entitled "Organisations, Structure,"

and you see it's entitled "The Decision Makers"

and this is 12 names up here, not one female name makes decisions.

And I would pretty much, I don't know all 12 of them,

but I'd pretty much suggest they're all male, middle class,

they're all white, I mean, so it isn't prejudiced against,

it's just the way the world has developed for those positions.

-On the board of the FA? No, I haven't, no.

-Would you?

-What, if I was asked? Well, um...

-Cos you just seem like the stand-out candidate?

-You know, and it does seem bizarre that the FA can't find anyone.

-Yeah.

Well, I mean, I personally won't invest a penny of my own money

in a business that doesn't have a woman on its board of directors.

Well, I certainly hope there's more opportunities

for women to participate at that highest level.

We in the Football Association of Wales have a council behind us,

but at the moment, we do not have a female representative upon that.

It will be time we probably did.

'Um, I definitely want to be the first female council member to get on that council'

to make decisions, and I've said that openly and have fun about it,

but at the end of the day, for me, you know,

getting my licence and coaching at this level, giving something back,

is so special and I'd never take it for granted.

Slowly, slowly, I think.

Let's not make too many drastic changes straight away

otherwise it just won't happen.

It's taken so long to try and even be appreciated, I think,

in the role that I'm in now.

It's only now people are saying, asking your opinions about things,

because, years ago, they didn't think you could

answer the question about football, so we'll be all right.

'I know quite a few women working in football in England, brilliant persons,'

and they have to also be used in the governance positions, but again,

the only thing UEFA can do in a way is to set a kind of role model

by doing this and also saying to the other federations,

"Look, this is part of the governance, how it should be

"in the future," but it's up to the FA themselves to decide on this.

I think the FA can take a lead

in giving women more senior roles, when appropriate.

And when we were sent a form asking us our views

on independent non-executive directors, I did make

or put forward a whole list of women I thought could do an excellent job.

Where that list is, who's read it and what will become of it, I don't know.

Shortly after we spoke to Karren Brady,

the FA announced that they were appointing Heather Rabbatts

as one of two new independent non-executive directors to add to their board.

It is significant. I mean, the FA's 150 years old next year,

I'm the first woman to be appointed to the board,

but I'm also, you know, really conscious

that I was a unanimous decision, because of all of my other

experiences in business, in media and in government that, um,

I think will help get a broader view for the board

to sort of make some of those decisions going forward.

-Um, I am also a woman and mixed race.

-Before you were appointed,

did you look from the outside and feel that the FA

was lacking a female presence?

I suppose what I would say is, you know, with another hat on,

I chair audit and risk for a very big infrastructure project.

There's no woman on that board either.

Football is, sadly, not alone and the recent reports,

whether the reports on the top 100 FTSE companies, the Davies Report.

-The FTSE 100 companies is 14% of the average?

-Yeah, exactly.

-And the FA board is 7% now.

-Now.

-So, to be in line with the FTSE 100,

the FA board would have to have another woman?

Indeed, um, and, you know,

not that there are targets, as we know, set, or quotas set in this country.

The stereotypes are being knocked down.

The male-female is being knocked down.

It is a very much still male environment

and that won't change, because not every female

grows up wanting to be a footballer or the football manager.

Every single male that grows up wants to do that,

so you're competing against an awful lot of other people.

There are so many men that want to commentate on football, for example,

that I don't think you should be shoehorning half of your new recruits

as to being women who are necessarily not that keen to do it.

That just doesn't make any sense.

Can you persuade the cynics who think that positive discrimination,

as happens on boards in Norway, where 40% of the board has to be

a woman, can you persuade them that that is actually a good thing?

Cos even feminists sometimes balk at the idea of quotas.

I'm strongly defending that and I'm a result of that myself.

When I first was asked to enter the Norwegian ExCo back in '88,

I was quota'd into it.

I don't... I'm not a great believer that quotas are the way forward.

It works against the vast majority to the benefit of a small minority.

The tokenism is something that I think many women,

certainly I would feel offended by.

Many girls playing or mostly the boys?

-Well, they do have a club for football.

-They do?

-Yeah.

-Good.

So being the vice-president, that was the result of proven competence,

not because you're quota'd, but I used to say I would never have had

a chance to prove that if I wasn't quota'd into the first position.

-Where do you sit on quotas?

-I'm not, personally, I'm not convinced.

I have a former president in the Norwegian FA who says,

"Karen, this is not a big discussion.

"Men has been quota'd for 70 years."

-I don't know if you've seen on the FA website...

-Mm-hm?

-The board is called The Decision Makers.

-Mm-hm.

And you're not on that page yet, which is why I was asking

whether you actually have decision-making powers, because...

I'm pretty certain I do, so... SHE LAUGHS

You've told me, that's good enough for me. I want to see your name on there, though.

-OK...

-I want you to be on there.

-I'll go away and look at it, then.

LAUGHTER Thanks for pointing it out.

That's all right. I wonder how many more females,

and how we're going to get more females into those roles.

For many years, you would often hear, "Oh, there's just nobody out there."

-Hmm.

-Well, actually, there are many talented women out there.

Kelly Simmons is one of those women that frequently got quoted to us

as just an obvious choice.

And I would hope, at some future, that she would be part of that,

er, team that has representation on the board.

Kelly Simmons is head of the National Game at the FA,

responsible for investing £200 million into grassroots football.

The recruitment was for independent

non-executive directors in this case and, obviously, I'm a staff member,

so I wouldn't be qualified

to, er, to throw my name in the hat really for that.

Karren Brady, when we spoke to her, had never been approached.

I was amazed she'd never been approached by the FA.

It just seems, to have somebody who's got that much experience in football, to not even be...

Well, I think, to be an independent non-exec,

you could not be a serving executive of a football club, so Karren couldn't have applied.

I mean, part of the criteria was that as an independent non-exec,

you absolutely couldn't have any affiliation,

um, with a current football club.

But there are only two independent non-executives on the FA board -

many of the other members ARE currently working in the game.

So how will women like Karren Brady and Kelly Simmons ever join them?

Well, I think it's about whether it's our colleagues in the professional game

and our colleagues in the national game thinking about future succession

and ensuring that there's a pool of talent that can come through

and be, you know, selected for those roles.

I've a bet going with a mate

that there'll be a female Premier League manager within ten years,

because, you know, whatever's said, at the top level, we're an entertainment business.

You never know! I don't want to rule it out and say, "Never," but...

That would be probably the last big...

barrier to break through.

Who dares to be the first to do that?

That'd be fantastic.

I don't think I'll see one in my lifetime.

Someone, somewhere, will appoint a female manager.

And whether it's because she's the best person out there,

or because of the commercial aspects that come with it...

Whatever the reason, the reason will be it's the best situation for the club.

I think that there are women...

There are a number of women in the industry

who've been incredibly brave and broken through those glass ceilings.

I just think that the level of women's football is not great enough

where a woman could be in charge of a team at Championship level, Premiership level.

That's just my personal opinion.

It will happen.

If it's questionable

whether there'll ever be a top female manager,

it's even less clear which body stands up for women with issues in the game.

The body that represents women?

No, nope.

The racism thing's obviously well-documented,

cos every start of the season,

you have your team photographed with "Let's Kick Racism Out Of Football."

Erm...

Well, there isn't, is there? Really, in that sense.

I mean, obviously, the FA would...

look at the women's game, but the women's game...

There's a subtle difference between representing women footballers

and representing women in football.

If we collectively, the women in our organisation,

can't make it better, then who's going to do that for us?

I think that's the point that we've come to with the WIFs.

Previously, we were happy to, you know,

just keep things amongst ourselves, not be a campaigning voice.

But the turning point was really the Sian Massey incident,

and realising that anybody who came out and spoke on behalf of women

around that time, they had to do so as individuals,

and so they had to take the full flak on their shoulders.

And it was very exposing for them.

It's very difficult.

I mean, when I was a lawyer in the really early days of harassment,

it is always about who breaks the silence.

And it takes massive courage to do that, so to that extent,

I think it's been...

There were some positive repercussions

out of some very unacceptable comments that were made.

Do you think there's more the FA could do with WIFs?

I don't know, really. I think we're probably...

All of the football bodies maybe could promote it more,

but there's some good numbers turning up

from a real diverse range of roles in the game.

There are definitely some more reformed characters than others.

And so, like, Eddie Gray talks to me...

you know, as an equal

and, you know, is totally accepting of the idea

that women work in the game.

And then you get guys who are in their 30s

who just can't get their head round it, you know?

Having run a football club in my previous life

and, you know, been in certain situations, yes,

there is obviously sexism around, and I was in a meeting

where we got women in football together

and we could all fit in one room.

-The last meeting we went to filled a much bigger room than this.

-Good!

Do you think there might be a more structured approach?

There may well be,

and I think it would be something I would want to talk about further

with some of my colleagues here over the forthcoming months.

I've sort of been here for about six weeks now, I think,

so it's sort of early, early days.

And that absolutely has to be something that those chairmen -

and they are all chairMEN - have to think about.

It's not necessarily just about the 11 players on the pitch...

'It really comes down to culture.'

And it's one of the hardest things you can change in any organisation,

and it only comes from change right at the top,

where people really, fundamentally, honestly and passionately believe

that things need to be changed.

Not just, "What do we look like?"

Yeah, see you in a few weeks. Bye.

If I'd said that to a bloke and offered him a job,

he'd say, "Yeah, great. Brilliant."

And he'd think, "I can't do that!" But he wouldn't say it.

So sometimes, I think there's an honesty often about women,

or a realism and...we could probably communicate a bit more

and there's less bravado, perhaps.

A bit less testosterone, as Gabby referred to it.

So that was my first experience of a WIFs' meeting.

And I have to say, they've asked me before and I couldn't make it

as I genuinely had work commitments, but I also was reticent,

because I didn't know if I wanted to share the experiences that I'd had,

'and, you know, it felt like I was doing a positive thing,

'sharing those things, as some of the women -

'and girls - had also experienced similar things.

'It's probably good to know you're not alone.'

It wasn't as scary an experience as I thought it was going to be,

and they're a lovely bunch of ladies.

I'd actually love to come and maybe speak to them again sometime

and hear their thoughts. So...I think I'll do that.

Everything else has been taken away from them.

You know, we get better grades than them and we take their jobs away.

I've actually got that on a...

Somebody sent me a card - "First we get better grades from them

"and then we take their jobs."

-Now we've taken football.

-Now we've taken football.

It is a man's game.

However, in terms of what goes in and around the support of those players

on that pitch, can that be more diverse and inclusive?

Yes, it can. You know, we moved a long way

from those few, lone black players in terms of the diversity of race

we see on the pitch, which is, I think, absolutely brilliant.

It's about can we get some diversity around what happens in football,

which particularly includes and represents women?

Where we are now,

there will never be fewer women in football than what we have now.

There will only be more of us.

So I think that doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

But when Sepp Blatter says things like,

"Women's shorts should be tighter

"and it would increase the popularity of the sport..."

You know, this attitude comes from the top down.

How helpful is that?

I have had a chance to discuss that with him

and also tried to communicate and say, "This is not what it's about."

-What kind of response did you get?

-He has to answer that.

Goalkeepers in shorts? Pfft!

GABBY LAUGHS

Have you ever thought,

"I'm going to be the one. I'm going to push myself forwards"?

As you've seen your male colleagues...

"I'll be that chief football writer. I'll be the sports editor."

When I first started, yes,

I think I thought that was possible if I wanted it.

Now, I'm beginning to think, "Will it happen in my lifetime?"

I think it's really important that the role of women in football

is looked at seriously,

in the same way that weight is given to homophobia and racism,

and the women we spoke to -

who've experienced terrible treatment -

never have to go through it again,

and the people after them don't have to experience it.

I think that will be better for men AND women in the game,

and I think it'll be better, ultimately, for the game itself,

the game that we love, the beautiful game.

I always likened working at a club

to the end scene of the Wizard Of Oz,

when you pull back the curtain and you think,

"Oh, is that it? Just a guy with a microphone?"

And it just kind of ruins illusion.

# Somewhere

# Over the rainbow... #

If you're a female and you want to get involved in that environment,

you are knocking your head against a very, very tough wall.

And you would wonder...

..to a certain extent, why do you want to do that?

What are you looking to prove?

# That I heard of once

# Once in a lullaby... #

What changed in you, then?

Um...

How do you mean?

Why did you think it was possible?

And now you've got to a situation where...

You know, what happened to the young Vikki who thought it was possible?

Erm...

I don't know.

The ball, the ball. Pass the ball.

I think you always assume it'll be better for the next generation,

and it's going to be easier for the next generation.

So, therefore, I hope it's not even a consideration to Lois,

that there's nothing that she feels she can't do,

and there's nothing that she feels is a male-dominated industry.

And whether that is a more peculiar situation for her

as she has me as a mum and therefore she sees me

doing something that other people might perceive as being a man's job

or, you know, again asking the question,

"What's it like to work in a man's world?"

Which I'm still asked 18 years or so into this industry.

How can you not take someone seriously

who's been in football for 13 years?

So, for me again, not had a problem there.

But it's taken a long time.

# ..you'll find me

# Somewhere over the rainbow... #

Hopefully, her and her generation will find it to be a more open

and comfortable route to wherever they want to go

and they don't feel that they're being knocked back

because of their sex.

# Beyond the rainbow

# Why, oh, why can't I? #

SHE EXHALES

APPLAUSE

That was so good!

-Well done!

-GABBY CHUCKLES