Clive Rowlands Cofio

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-# Remember

-# Remember #

-Good evening, and welcome

-to another edition of Cofio.

-My guest is a remarkable man.

-He's unique in rugby history.

-He's captained, coached, managed

-and presided over the Welsh team.

-He did all that from the heart.

-He's a man who is full of emotion.

-A warm welcome, Clive Rowlands.

-A warm welcome, Clive Rowlands.

-

-Thanks, it's my pleasure to be here.

-Rugby's been important to you

-all your life.

-Yes, it's been a small part of my

-life and has its place in my heart.

-The heart often rules the head.

-I love the game

-and it's true that rugby is my life.

-You were a respected coach,

-as we'll hear now.

-These are the words

-of some of the greats of Welsh rugby.

-He's a man who shows emotion

-in all walks of life.

-The emotion is even stronger

-if it's to do with Wales.

-It's a factor that comes into play.

-When he's coaching the Welsh team...

-..within ten minutes

-of seeing the lads in red shirts...

-..he gets emotional and it shows.

-Take Barry John, for example.

-Barry always laughs at me,

-but I can't be cross with him.

-I have to get cross at times.

-Gareth's different.

-He needs the big game build up.

-He's just like me.

-He's such a good motivator.

-He gets the adrenalin

-flowing in your blood system.

-He gets your heart beating furiously

-even before the game gets under way.

-In the two or three days

-before match day, he's relentless.

-He makes you focus on the game.

-It's his chief attribute.

-Out on the field,

-you're ready to do anything.

-You'd die for your country.

-Clive's the sort of bloke...

-..who can draw the best

-from the players he's got.

-He gets on well with the boys too.

-It's important

-for a coach to do that...

-..rather than staying aloof.

-Break, Dai, break to the open,

-and just feed him.

-I think he's at his best

-with the forwards.

-As he was a scrum-half...

-..two yards away from the forward

-row, constantly hassling them...

-..he's brought that knowledge into

-coaching sessions with the team.

-Come on then, over to the ruck.

-Come on, run!

-A few players paid tribute there.

-They talked about your coaching.

-Does psychology

-play a big part in coaching?

-You have to get into their minds.

-There was no point shouting

-at Barry, he'd take no notice.

-If I gave Gareth a hard time,

-he'd be concerned.

-You really had to treat

-each player differently.

-Dai Morris is the best example.

-He'd just look at you.

-You'd say something...

-..and you'd know he was with you.

-Everyone is different.

-They were all individuals.

-But to get the best out of them...

-..you had to get each individual

-to work with the other fourteen.

-To be a coach,

-also a player, as you were...

-..you had be very fit.

-Let's go back to your childhood days.

-Didn't you suffer a serious illness?

-Didn't you suffer a serious illness?

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-Every member of my family suffered.

-First, my father fell victim

-to an illness contracted as a miner.

-As a child, I had TB - tuberculosis.

-It was hard.

-I had two older sisters.

-They both had TB too.

-It was very difficult

-for my parents.

-These next images show

-how dreadful the disease was.

-Tuberculosis or consumption.

-"Y diciau" or "darfodedigaeth".

-With its different names,

-this infectious disease...

-..affected

-tens of thousands in Wales.

-Many were children or young people.

-Effective medication

-was in short supply.

-Respiratory treatment was extreme

-was a case of trial and error.

-Young patients

-were taken away from their families.

-Isolation hospitals

-were set up all over Wales

-Not everyone won the battle.

-How long did you spend

-in the sanatorium?

-Two years.

-I spent almost a year

-in Craig y Nos...

-..and the remainder at

-Highland Moor in Llandrindod Wells.

-They were contrasting treatments.

-At Craig y Nos, you were

-in hospital and fairly immobile.

-I was then transferred

-to Llandrindod Wells.

-Exercise and fresh air

-were all part of the regime.

-That film gave me a shock

-as I hadn't seen it before.

-It brought back vivid memories.

-Seeing that balcony

-and all the beds on the balcony...

-..I remember as a seven-year-old...

-..being out on the balcony

-in the middle of winter.

-A tarpaulin was draped on the bed.

-Its purpose was not to give warmth.

-It kept rain and snow off the bed!

-It was very, very cruel.

-At the time, it was considered

-to be the appropriate treatment.

-I recall, and I can feel it now,

-the experience of having an X-ray.

-A set procedure had to be followed.

-Your arms went behind your back.

-You stood by a very cold machine.

-That's how the X-ray was done.

-You couldn't move,

-and had to hold your breath...

-..so that an accurate image

-could be taken.

-Also, a tube was sometimes

-inserted down your throat

-Tablets were taken in that way.

-Awful!

-Didn't your two sisters

-also suffer from the illness?

-Yes, and my elder sister,

-Megan, died at the age of 24.

-I was one of the lucky ones

-in the six to ten years age group.

-You'd see your mother

-once every two months usually.

-That in itself was cruel.

-But I was allowed

-to see Mam nearly every day.

-As my sister was so ill,

-she'd visit her and then see me!

-To this day, I never wear a vest...

-..to avoid restricting

-my ventilation.

-Yes, it was a sad time

-but I'm glad I had the treatment.

-It's struck a chord again recently

-that I'm still healthy.

-Your father died

-when you were quite young.

-I was ten years old and about to sit

-the eleven-plus examination.

-He was a relatively young man.

-He was 52 years old, I believe.

-The important point about his death

-is this.

-Everyone in the village knew

-what was the cause death.

-The effects of that vile dust.

-It was found in all the coal mines

-in the upper Swansea Valley.

-The official cause of death...

-..was thrombosis...

-..so the certificate said.

-"Aggravated by pneumoconiosis."

-It should have been

-the other way around.

-But as thrombosis was listed first,

-Mam was not compensated...

-..nor did she get free coal.

-Just imagine the hardship

-of no money and no coal.

-It was hard for her, of course.

-As well as the colliery, there was

-another employer in the area.

-It was the Tick Tock factory.

-Tick Tock was a real tonic

-for the Swansea Valley, in my view.

-There was a workforce

-of about 2,000...

-..which included Edna,

-my second sister.

-She worked there for many years.

-Consider the size of a wristwatch...

-..manufactured with tiny components.

-It was work

-that appealed to a collier.

-He transformed the way he worked.

-His mandrel was now

-a micro instrument.

-A collier had the skill

-to turn his hand to anything.

-We have a chance now to see both.

-First, it's the colliery

-and then the Tick Tock factory.

-# Leaving home at the crack of dawn

-# From a warm bed to the cold air #

-No tool involved in mining

-was ever light to carry.

-Everything was heavy - the iron,

-the hammer, the sledge.

-Everything was heavy there.

-Nothing was light.

-When I started,

-they used the very old system.

-They called it pillar and stall.

-Then, the conveyers

-were gradually introduced.

-Afterwards, some time later...

-..the very large machinery

-was introduced and utilized.

-The noise was so incessant

-and there was all that dust.

-It was hell beneath the earth.

-The work at Tick Tock

-involved great attention to detail.

-It was entirely different work.

-I worked at Tick Tock

-with my friend, John Elgar Williams.

-During summer holidays,

-we were the gardeners!

-Tick Tock was a blessing

-for the Swansea Valley.

-Was it a close-knit community?

-Everyone came

-from a similar background...

-..and worked

-in a similar environment.

-Swansea Valley

-is full of close-knit communities...

-..Ystalyfera, Cwmtwrch, Cwmllynfell,

-Abercraf, Ystradgynlais, Brynaman...

-..it's the same everywhere.

-Gifted, talented people lived

-within the coal-mining communities.

-But most coal miners' children

-would choose to go off to college!

-I thought I wanted to be a miner.

-Mam said,

-"No, it's college for you, my boy."

-I wasn't brainy,

-but I managed to go to a college.

-You know, I speak to friends

-who used to work underground.

-They were very happy in their work.

-There was a friendly atmosphere,

-one way or another...

-..within that subterranean world.

-It was the comradeship, wasn't it?

-That comradeship

-must have been wonderful.

-We'll leave it there for now, Clive.

-When you rejoin us, we'll travel

-to the ends of the earth.

-We'll see a horrific injury and find

-out why Clive is Lord Cwmtwrch.

-# Remember #

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-Welcome back to Cofio.

-My guest is Clive Rowlands.

-It's obvious that Cwmtwrch

-is very dear to you, Clive.

-However, you've also

-been able to travel the world.

-Which country do you feel

-has left the greatest impression?

-South Africa.

-There are many reasons for that.

-First, it was where

-I went on my first rugby tour.

-I was a member of the Welsh

-Secondary Schools team...

-..in 1956, at the age of 18 years.

-I think it left an impression

-on all of us as young men.

-We witnessed first hand...

-..black people on the street...

-..but no white people

-talking to them.

-On buses, there'd be

-white people sitting in the front.

-Black people had to sit in the back.

-There were also roadside benches

-to rest.

-There would be notices such as "For

-Black People" or "For White People".

-I returned there

-eight years later...

-..as the captain

-of the Welsh national rugby team.

-I saw similar regulations

-but with a few changes.

-They were only minor adjustments.

-It was strange playing there.

-Black men watched the rugby matches.

-They would cheer for Wales,

-not their own country.

-As it happens,

-we have a clip from that era.

-Here's Clive, captain of Wales,

-relaxing with the rest of the team.

-They're on the beach

-in Durban, back in 1964.

-The team spirit

-shown by the Welsh party...

-..is exemplified off the field.

-Dai Hayward, Mr Universe 1891,

-and fly-half David Watkins.

-Newport/Cardiff rivalry,

-and a handful of sand.

-And if Wales lost yesterday,

-commentator Alun Williams...

-..loses a battle with John Dawes and

-Haydn Morgan in the Indian Ocean.

-Neath's Ron Waldron has had enough.

-Maybe the intake of Indian Ocean

-has been a little too much for him.

-Skipper Clive Rowlands was known

-affectionately on tour as Top Cat.

-And this is Dibble, Llanelli hooker

-Norman Gale, who calls it a day.

-So does Haydn Morgan.

-Denzil Williams checks that all

-have returned to the beach...

-..including Haydn Morgan,

-Alun Pask and Allan Lewis.

-Those were the days of apartheid.

-I'd imagine that was a beach

-exclusively for white people.

-Yes, only white people were there.

-I went back there again in 1974.

-I was coaching in Natal.

-I remember making a request when I

-was invited to work in Natal.

-"I hope you give me

-the opportunity...

-"..to coach the black

-as well as the white."

-They granted one day for me

-to do so - my only day off.

-I only had one free day

-and that was the day I went!

-It left a lasting impression on me.

-I went there to coach those men.

-There were some exceptional players.

-In fairness,

-Natal helped them a lot after that.

-It's clear nowadays

-in South African rugby...

-..they have an excellent squad.

-Teams include

-skilled black rugby players.

-When he played against another

-southern hemisphere team...

-..Clive was seriously injured.

-This is Wales

-versus the All Blacks in 1963.

-The All Blacks had already

-defeated Ireland in Dublin.

-Wales faced an uphill task

-at the Arms Park that afternoon.

-It was a close encounter

-but New Zealand prevailed again.

-But the match will be remembered

-for another reason.

-Welsh captain, Clive Rowlands,

-was floored seconds from the end...

-..by an uncompromising tackle

-by Colin Meads.

-The pain suffered was evident

-on Clive Rowlands's face.

-Clive couldn't play for months

-following his spinal injury.

-APPLAUSE

-How do you feel watching that?

-I feel it now!

-What he did was really bad...

-..although men often

-played like that then.

-The ball would come back to the

-scrum-half from the line-outs.

-Their man, Briscoe,

-would kick it over the line-out.

-Colin Meads was well on his way

-even before he'd kicked it.

-You could argue that he was offside.

-I recall going to cover

-and my back was turned.

-I called for the mark.

-Colin Meads came flying towards me.

-He put his hands on my shoulders

-and he kneed me in the backside.

-Seeing it now,

-with me going up in the air...

-..it was despicable in a way.

-He was a gifted player but

-his actions were stupid at times.

-Have you spoken to him since?

-Have you spoken to him since?

-

-Many times, teasing him about it.

-He said I was a Hollywood actor.

-"No, no, I didn't hurt him."

-It was quite a bad experience.

-When I reflect on that tackle...

-..I still suffer backache which

-I'm sure is linked to the injury.

-I still have two screws in my back.

-It's hard to believe.

-The St John's ambulancemen

-weren't sure what to do.

-It was a major injury after all.

-The situation is so different

-nowadays.

-There'd be the stretcher,

-the neck brace and so on.

-They don't carry you off the field

-the way I was carried off there.

-You were obviously in pain.

-You were obviously in pain.

-

-That's it, I had passed out.

-By the time I got there,

-I was out of it.

-The advantage of being injured in

-a place such as the old Arms Park...

-..there were plenty

-of doctors at hand.

-They'd be in the changing room

-immediately.

-There were medics,

-orthopaedic surgeons and so on...

-..competent doctors

-to examine players.

-Looking at it made me shiver.

-Is the game less dangerous

-since the introduction of new rules?

-The linesmen carrying flags

-are significant and have their say.

-Television cameras

-can also see what goes on.

-If there's an infringement, even

-if it's missed by the referee...

-..it can be dealt with nowadays

-due to TV footage.

-The game has changed

-in that respect.

-The All Blacks that day were great.

-We only lost by six points to nil

-and they didn't score a try.

-But they were a very good team.

-Looking back, you've had your share

-of suffering, including cancer.

-Yes, the cancer's cleared.

-I had bowel cancer...

-..about 15 years ago.

-It was a difficult experience.

-I thought my time was up

-to tell you the truth.

-I almost went up there.

-But I made a full recovery.

-I had to have an operation,

-a colostomy as they say.

-I then had

-what they call an ileostomy.

-They had to make

-several surgical incisions.

-After all the surgery

-came the chemotherapy.

-The most significant factor

-was the rugby spirit...

-..the spirit felt when close-knit

-communities come together.

-My wife and children

-were supportive...

-..and at the same time, they had

-a lot of support form others too.

-Does that spirit exist elsewhere?

-You'd never get better care than the

-care Margaret and everyone gave me.

-Wales is a very special place.

-Another special place,

-of course, is Cwmtwrch.

-That's become evident

-in our programme tonight.

-It's so important to Clive,

-the worthy Lord of Cwmtwrch!

-It's a small village.

-I was raised here

-and still live here.

-It's been important to me

-in all I've done.

-It's a close-knit community

-where everyone helps one another.

-Whatever they do, they do it as one.

-I feel that's an important factor...

-..in any young man's development

-and particularly in a rugby town.

-In class, he was a quiet pupil.

-He was happy and cheerful,

-a pleasant boy.

-He was always on good terms

-with his classmates...

-..and with his teachers.

-He's an excellent lad.

-He's a good boy and very clever.

-When he was playing rugby

-for Swansea, you knew he was a star.

-He could pass the ball out,

-or he could go it alone.

-He could also kick it

-and protect his forwards.

-Oh, he won't leave Cwmtwrch.

-He's building a bungalow

-in Cwmtwrch!

-He's had plenty of offers to leave

-home and to leave the valley.

-But he's firmly rooted in Cwmtwrch.

-He was always full of beans at home

-and he read a lot.

-He'd go off then...

-..to kick his football.

-They think the world of him here.

-It's the same everywhere

-in this coal-mining region.

-Lord Cwmtwrch is how

-he's addressed, that's his nickname.

-It's a respectful nickname.

-No Lord could be more democratic.

-Whatever success he's achieved,

-he's not forgotten his roots.

-I feel

-that you and Cwmtwrch are as one.

-The village has been good to me.

-It was nice to see my former school

-teacher and Dai Llewelyn.

-Auntie Bess and others

-were there too.

-It was a very nice clip.

-I'm proud to have been

-brought up there.

-Clive, thank you so much

-for keeping me company tonight.

-It's been a pleasure

-to meet Lord Cwmtwrch!

-I've really enjoyed it.

-That's all from us here on Cofio.

-Goodnight.

-# Remember

-# Remember #

-S4C Subtitles by Simian 04 Cyf.

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