Episode 2 Dragons' Den


Episode 2

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These are the Dragons, five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.

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Over the coming weeks, they'll make and break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

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I think it will drop off a cliff.

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On the business side, it looks so far a complete and utter disaster.

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It's not just my foot that's itching. I'm getting frustrated.

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I've got a funny feeling you might end up with five offers.

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The multi-millionaire investors have each built up their fortunes from scratch.

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Retail magnate Theo Paphitis.

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Hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.

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Leisure industry expert Deborah Meaden.

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Logistics queen Hilary Devey.

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And telecoms giant Peter Jones.

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The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment and the cash ready to invest,

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but only in the right business.

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Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs walk away with their money?

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Welcome to the Dragons' Den. We have another group of anxious entrepreneurs waiting in the wings.

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All they have to do is get their pitch perfect and prove they have a great product.

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Oh, and demonstrate they have the skills to bring it to market, keep their costs down,

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see off the competition and turn a healthy profit. Just do that and they're on their way.

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First up is pentrepreneur Vicki Edmunds. It's a phrase we've coined for an entrepreneurial pensioner.

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Let's see how she gets on.

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SHE TAKES DEEP BREATH

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Hello, Dragons. My name is Vicki Edmunds

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and I'm here today to ask you for 15% of my business at £50,000.

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Eat With A Local connects travellers to local people who will cook for them in their homes.

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It's such a good site. It teaches you about different countries' culture.

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I've hosted a family from New Zealand in my home in Wales

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and until they dined with me they didn't know that I spoke Welsh.

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I have been hosted by Eat With A Local members and when I was in Goa

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I was taken to the beach with Megana and Parish

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and we sipped cocktails watching the sun go down and Megana chose little titbits off the menu for me to try.

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It was a wonderful experience.

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When I started the website, I tried to promote it on Twitter

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and I tweeted for two months before I realised I was tweeting myself, but I can do it now.

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I can do it now. The other day I talked to a man from Venezuela.

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Venezuela! And I did that. I did that!

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I would dearly like to cook for you my lava bread and bacon if you don't mind.

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Thank you very much for listening to my presentation. Thank you very much.

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A somewhat flighty pitch from a whimsical Vicki Edmunds.

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The children's entertainer is on a mission to unite food lovers across the globe

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and she needs a £50,000 injection to do so. In return, she's offering 15% equity.

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Can Duncan Bannatyne make sense of it all?

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-Can you talk and cook at the same time?

-Well, I'll try. It'll take my mind off it a bit, won't it?

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-Perhaps I won't be so nervous.

-I'll ask the easy questions, Vicki.

-That'd be good.

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-How many members do you have?

-1,075 so far.

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-How many people have you cooked for?

-Well, a student from the USA was studying in Oxford.

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So she came and ate with me. That day I had tonsillitis!

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I was in the doctor's when she arrived so my daughter had to go and meet her

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and she had cricked her neck. And I had tonsillitis. But we had a wonderful time.

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-So that's one, then.

-No, no, no. Una in Ireland,

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she met up with a lady, Nina. Nina was a lot older than Una,

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but Una said it was as if they were destined to meet.

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I did that. My site was fundamental to them meeting.

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-So you are totally, utterly responsible for connecting Una to "Ena"?!

-Yes! Yes!

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You've got to taste this. It's lovely. It's really nice.

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Oh, dear, I've missed one. Nobody said.

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Please help yourselves.

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Such a genial atmosphere rarely prevails in the Den.

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-What's in lava bread?

-Seaweed.

-Real seaweed?

-Yeah. It's got iron.

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-Lovely.

-But it's not Vicki's culinary skills that are on offer.

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Peter Jones wants to bring it back to business.

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Vicki, when I want to go and travel somewhere,

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-do I have to pay anything to eat with you?

-Oh, right. First, you would go on the search engine.

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You would type Spain and the members come up. Some would say they want a fee and some cook for free.

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-OK. So I would then go and meet the family...

-Yes.

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-..have a bite to eat.

-Yes. If you come to my house, I'd say, "There's a male voice choir tonight."

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You get local information that you can't get in the usual guidebooks.

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-Vicki...

-Yes?

-Out of the 1,075 members that you've currently got,

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-how many of those charge?

-I can't give you a number, but surprisingly a lot of them don't.

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-And they don't charge because they'll make a friend and feel that friend will reciprocate?

-Yes.

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Hmm.

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The Dragons seem to have bought in to Vicki's infectious enthusiasm

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and now Deborah Meaden wants more detail about the business itself.

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-So how are we going to make money out of this?

-Deborah, do you mind if I call my daughter, please?

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-She knows all about the figures.

-Good idea.

-Thank you.

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Georgia!

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-PETER:

-Hi, Georgia.

-Hiya.

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Hello. Nice to meet you.

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So we've heard about the idea, but not how to make money out of it.

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OK. We believe in three years we can receive 1.3 million members.

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We're going to charge £10 to become verified and we think 2% of the members will take up that offer.

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Also we think we can sell spices, sauces, recipe books in supermarkets.

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-And also advertising.

-OK.

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-That's a one-off payment, that £10?

-Yes, that's it.

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-How much income would that give you?

-A quarter of a million if 2%...

-£260,000.

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260. Pretty much quarter of a million.

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Georgia's arrival has brought focus to the Den and revealed a plausible money-making opportunity.

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Theo Paphitis is intrigued.

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Georgia, what do you do?

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Georgia came up with another site. Tell them about your other site.

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-Come on.

-Date My Sister. My sister was trying to find a date.

-Date My Sister?

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-Yeah, and it was quite...

-Did it work?

-Yeah. She married someone from the local pub after...

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It didn't work for her.

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Um, OK. What evidence have you got that you can make that

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-into a commercially-viable business?

-I looked at other websites.

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I've researched it. I think I've got these figures right. It's either 125 million or billion,

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-it's worth, the tourist industry in this country.

-Billion.

-Billion.

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And Crashpad, who got taken over the other day, they only had 7,000 members and got taken over by Airbnb

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and I said to Georgia, "They only had 7,000 members. We have 1,000 and we haven't even tried!"

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-So I reckon that it's going to get bigger and bigger and people will take over.

-It'll be huge.

-Huge.

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OK, so £50,000.

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-What were you intending to do with it?

-£20,000 would be on the website.

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-OK.

-And £30,000 on advertising.

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£20,000 on the website. What if it costs more?

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The advertising budget would have to go down.

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-We'd have to use more...

-We'd have a really nice website, but couldn't tell anybody how to get there.

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Yeah, basically.

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Vicki, Georgia, to do what you want to do is going to cost a lot more than £50,000.

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And then to try to get £260,000 of revenue I think would be very difficult.

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So I'm sorry. I can't invest in you.

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CouchSurfing is huge, Crashpad is huge. We could be huge.

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No.

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You nearly did! You nearly did! You nearly said yes!

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I'm out.

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A dose of reality is finally served up to the enthusiastic entrepreneurs.

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And now Deborah Meaden looks to have made up her mind, too.

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I do get this whole travelling thing. It makes a big difference if you hook up with a local person,

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but I have got experience in a website in this space

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with a lot of traffic and a lot of members and it's still pretty tough to monetise it.

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So I wish I could have found a way because it would be a load of fun, but I don't see the business model.

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-So I'm really sorry. I won't be investing.

-But thank you very much.

-I'm out.

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-Georgia, can I say it was a real pleasure to have your mum in the Den?

-Thank you.

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I do think 1,000 members, you've proved that it works.

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But as a business I don't think that it's there.

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-I'm out, but it's been a real pleasure to meet you.

-Thank you.

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Well, Vicki, I think you're fantastic. I'll join your site and have dinner one day at your house.

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But it's not an investment that can give a return, so I've got to say that I'm out.

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Kind words, but no cash. Only Hilary Devey remains.

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Will she see an opportunity where her rivals have not?

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Hmm.

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-I think it's a fantastic idea.

-Thank you.

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And if you're telling me that there's no other sites doing this, then I think it's very ingenious.

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And I can think of a lot of ways of generating profit by contacting airlines,

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if you get Eat With A Local vouchers, you know.

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The amount of money that you are asking for, for so little equity, is not a viable proposition.

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If I was to offer you...

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the £50,000

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for 95% of your company, what would you say?

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-We'd give 50% of the business for £50,000.

-50?

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Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh.

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Oh, gosh.

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No.

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-Oh, sausages!

-What you're missing is so much commercial acumen here.

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-OK, right.

-And £50,000 will not do this, for a kick off.

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-I'm afraid I've got to say I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you very much.

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A tense finale to a light-hearted pitch.

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Vicki and Georgia may have entertained, but heads rule hearts and they leave with nothing.

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-You could not be unhappy around that woman.

-Fabulous.

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-It's all about the person.

-Absolutely.

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It was the most intense moment of my life, but then I felt all this love coming from the Dragons.

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-I thought Hilary would invest.

-I met her gaze and she met my gaze. "I'm going to invest in you."

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-And I thought she had. I could tell by Georgia's face that she hadn't said that. She didn't, did she?

-No.

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It's not unusual for the Dragons to get toilet-based products pitched to them in the Den

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and this year is no exception.

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Scottish entrepreneur Gordon MacSween's is probably the most hi-tech of all those proposals.

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And he hoped his advertising-based invention would be worth a £250,000 investment.

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When people come into a washroom, they'll see entertaining content, interspersed with promotions.

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They're standing in front of the world's first pee-controlled video game,

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which I'll now demonstrate for you.

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As soon as the person starts, it starts.

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To go right, aim right. To go left, aim left.

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-Theo Paphitis was able to sum up the pitch in just one letter.

-So your whole USP

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is, in fact, the pee. You really expect anybody here

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to offer you £250,000 for this?

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I am optimistic. You'd expect that.

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-Can I try it?

-You can.

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-Tech expert Peter Jones couldn't resist a closer look.

-Excuse us.

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-Skiing.

-I'm not telling you what you look like!

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-Is that fun, Peter?

-It is.

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At the end of the game, it presents a leaderboard. That could be for a whole chain of venues.

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The problem is it's a game that you play when you have a wee.

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No, put it down, Gordon.

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In the end, it was Deborah Meaden who dashed Gordon's dreams of investment.

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Companies who buy them are looking for people to go away and say, "You won't believe what they've got!"

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And I agree that you'll sell some.

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But its novelty is what gives it opportunity.

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I think it will drop off a cliff,

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-so I'm out.

-OK.

-Good luck.

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Parents with young children often struggle to balance family time with the commitments of work.

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Yusuf Chadun and Shazia Mustafa decided to do something about that

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and think they've come up with a solution that's become a business.

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The only question: will the Dragons think there's money to be made?

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Hi. My name is Shazia Mustafa. I'm the co-founder of Third Door Workhub and Nursery.

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Hello. My name's Yusuf. I'm the co-founder of Third Door.

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We're here today to raise £120,000 in return for 20% equity in our innovative business.

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For many working parents, childcare can be expensive and inflexible.

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If you're a home-based employee having a new baby at home can be great,

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but it can also affect productivity.

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So we found a new solution and working. Third Door is an integrated combined professional workspace

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with an onsite flexible day care nursery. Basically, the parents drop their child off at the nursery,

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walk up the stairs and they're in the workhub - everything you need for a modern office.

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In the last four years, we've taken an idea through to concept, to break even

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and, hopefully, with your investment you can help us to grow. While we've been working, so has our daughter

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under the supervision of our nursery manager. She'd like to show you what she's been doing

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then we'll take any questions you may have. Thank you.

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Husband and wife team Shazia Mustafa and Yusuf Chadun and their four-year-old daughter Esha'al...

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-A dragon.

-Thank you.

-..need a £120,000 investment in their office-cum-nursery concept

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for working parents.

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-Thank you very much.

-Peter Jones looks impressed, but is it by the business proposition?

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-Hi, I'm Peter.

-Hello, Peter.

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It's a very clever tactic to come into the Den with a very, very cute little girl

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and hand out little personal dragons, but getting back into reality of is this a real business,

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what was the cost of set up, how long have you been trading and what's been the return to date?

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OK. So our investment so far has been about £400,000.

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The turnover in our first year was only £58,000. Our loss was about £193,000.

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-Year Two has been £193,000.

-Yeah.

-With a net loss of £11,000.

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-Yeah.

-Year Three, we're projected to make £381,000

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-with a net profit of about £90,000.

-And this, your third year, is about to start?

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-Or you're in it now?

-It's about to start.

-OK. So where have you spent all that money?

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We paid £60,000 rent deposit.

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Our fit out was about £200,000.

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-Wow.

-Well, the rent is £60,000 a year

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-and then working capital.

-OK. Are you scared?

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-Scared? About...?

-About losing that money.

-Em...

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It is a risk, it is a new concept, but we believe passionately that there is a market for this.

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-Shazia, Yusuf...

-Sorry.

-You know I was in the nursery business?

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-I'm struggling to see why you're losing so much money.

-OK.

-How many children can you accommodate?

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-Twenty-four.

-Twenty-four?

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Well, £400,000 to spend for 24 children

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-is too expensive.

-OK.

-That is a disaster.

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It's not a disaster. It does work. We've seen it work for two years.

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-I'm really sorry to...

-OK, you're saying it's not a disaster.

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You've lost £114,000 in three years and it's not a disaster?

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But remember that also includes the office space as well.

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-What office space is there?

-We can accommodate up to about 26 workers.

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What do you think the value of your office space is? What rent can you get?

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Em...I'd say more than £1,000 a day.

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Well, it seems to me that you should just close the nursery and rent it out. That's £365,000 a year.

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That's not our business. It isn't just the rental of office space.

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But a business is an operation that makes money.

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Not the best of starts for the two entrepreneurs

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as industry expert Duncan Bannatyne berates their business plan.

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Will they fare better under the scrutiny of Deborah Meaden?

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Hi, guys. Hi. Do you know, I think it could work?

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There is a lot of office space around and what you've tried to do

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is add a reason for people to come to your office space.

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So what I'm interested in is the business model.

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-You're in Year Three. You're projecting £381,000-worth of revenue.

-Yeah.

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-When does your year end?

-August. But we've given you the figures based on when we've been open

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so May to April and then May to April again.

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Does that make sense?

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It gets slightly complicated! It does complicate things slightly.

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It would be nice to say that when I looked at a set of accounts that was my profit figures.

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-So if we looked at your accounts, what would they say?

-OK, so the accounts for the end of Year One...

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So there were revenues of about £20,000.

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-And profit or loss of what?

-The loss for that Year One...

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Em...

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..was...

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Sorry, let me just think about this.

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Can you help me with this?

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-You've got your accounts there.

-I know...

-You print them out.

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-The number at the bottom!

-I know...

-The most important number. You must remember them! Please!

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We do, we do. He's just gone blank at the moment. Can we have a couple of minutes?

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Or do we need to think in front of you?

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-DEBORAH:

-Shall we?

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That's fine. Go to the back of the room.

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Come on, come on.

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Well, this is unusual. Conversations at the back of the Den normally centre around negotiation strategy,

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not discussions about how to rescue an ailing pitch.

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-I can't remember.

-I've only looked to May.

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What is it, Yusuf?

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Guys, you really do need to do it.

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It's really embarrassing.

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Right. OK, what I can definitely tell you

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from September, 2011, to date, we have made £131,000 turnover.

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The two numbers before is what we can't remember because we focused on the others.

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The loss on that was...

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Do you remember the loss? The other two numbers on the...

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-They're getting fed up with us.

-Yeah, I know.

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HE WHISPERS

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-I think this hasn't gone as you expected it to go.

-No.

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One thing I will say to you, if you're going out to investors,

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you do not have long to get their attention. You need to focus on the things you need to say

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and you need to deliver them in a way an investor expects them to be delivered to them.

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That's where you've gone wrong here, which I think is a shame.

0:25:530:25:58

-So I won't be investing. I'm out.

-OK.

0:25:580:26:02

It took courage to request a time-out in the Den, but sadly it hasn't paid off.

0:26:050:26:11

More bad news, it doesn't look like Hilary Devey is in the mood to offer any relief.

0:26:110:26:17

I've got so many numbers written down here and year ends and months, I don't know where I'm up to.

0:26:190:26:25

Tell me how you did your research to get your first batch of clients.

0:26:270:26:32

We wanted to quantify what the need was for that idea...

0:26:320:26:36

-What did you discover?

-What we discovered was there was five target segments.

0:26:360:26:41

We then went to market by creating advertising and marketing material

0:26:410:26:46

-attracting those potential individuals based on their...

-Yeah, I can feel my foot tickling.

0:26:460:26:52

-Over a period of time, we then...

-Did you do a business plan?

0:26:520:26:56

-Yeah.

-So you would have identified that rental of office accommodation

0:26:560:27:01

was far more profitable than what operating a nursery was.

0:27:010:27:06

-You did?

-Mm-hm.

-So why the hell didn't you do that?!

0:27:060:27:11

-Why didn't we do just the office?

-Yeah!

-Everyone else is doing the office only...

0:27:110:27:16

But you've just stood here and said that you could command a rental income of...

0:27:160:27:23

-£1,000 a day revenue, minimum.

-Yeah.

0:27:230:27:27

We go into business to make profit, do we not? So the most profitable part would be rental of offices

0:27:270:27:34

and you wouldn't have had those losses had you not gone into that nursery.

0:27:340:27:41

But we needed to make a loss before we could break even.

0:27:410:27:44

It's not just my foot itching. I'm getting really frustrated here.

0:27:440:27:49

-Sorry. Can I ask why you're getting frustrated?

-I'm getting frustrated because you've ignored

0:27:490:27:55

the most commercial, profitable part of that business plan and pitched the most unprofitable part.

0:27:550:28:02

-And can't even remember the figures!

-OK, let's...

0:28:020:28:07

I'm very sorry. I'm out.

0:28:070:28:10

A severe dressing down from Hilary Devey as the shell-shocked couple lose a second Dragon.

0:28:120:28:19

Their time in the Den looks to be drawing to a close.

0:28:190:28:24

What can I say?

0:28:250:28:27

It beggars belief that you can't remember basic numbers.

0:28:270:28:33

I've got a degree in Maths, believe it or not(!)

0:28:340:28:39

-And...

-I can't believe you just said that.

-I know, I know.

0:28:390:28:43

-This is really embarrassing. I'm sorry.

-OK, it is difficult working from home all the time.

0:28:430:28:49

You do need to get out to get some clarity of thought. That made sense.

0:28:490:28:53

But I...I can't invest in you because you just haven't given me enough information.

0:28:550:29:00

-Yeah.

-You haven't given me the clarity of a business plan to put money in and get a return.

0:29:000:29:06

-So I'm afraid...

-OK.

-..I'm out.

-Thank you, Theo.

0:29:060:29:11

OK, the problem is I don't think the concept works. If you think it works, prove it, make a profit

0:29:110:29:18

and operate for a couple of years before you start raising money.

0:29:180:29:22

But until then I have to say I'm not investing. I have to say where I am and I'm out.

0:29:220:29:28

Guys, I think that you forgot that the most important thing about the business is detail.

0:29:290:29:35

Sometimes the pressure of the Den can get to people and it's clearly got to you.

0:29:350:29:41

-So I'm going to say that I'm out.

-Thank you very much. Thank you.

-Good luck. All the best.

0:29:410:29:47

An emotionally-charged pitch, but for Shazia and Yusuf not one with the ending they'd hoped for.

0:29:480:29:54

They leave with nothing.

0:29:540:29:57

The Den has proved there's an appetite for making money in some unlikely ventures.

0:30:080:30:14

Business partners Gwen Bailey, Dr Patrick Handley, Graham Morgan and pet dog Spider

0:30:140:30:20

had one to savour for the Dragons. They needed £125,000.

0:30:200:30:24

We are Pawsonality, creators of the dog personality test.

0:30:240:30:29

It's an exciting new way for owners to find out more about their dog's true personality.

0:30:290:30:35

I'm an independent hound who likes to do my own thing. If you want me to behave, you need food and games.

0:30:350:30:43

And that's exactly it.

0:30:430:30:45

Hilary Devey had high hopes it would finally resolve a long-standing four-legged problem of her own.

0:30:450:30:51

I'd like to know why my horse won't move out the stable in the morning until it has a bacon barm cake.

0:30:510:30:59

-Your horse eats bacon?

-Yeah. Give him a bacon barm cake with brown sauce and a cup of tea and he comes.

0:31:010:31:07

Peter Jones had a more likely scenario for the entrepreneurs to consider.

0:31:070:31:13

Do I get personal specifics about how to treat my dog

0:31:130:31:17

over a different test that's done by another member of the family?

0:31:170:31:22

We encourage each member of the family to take it.

0:31:220:31:26

Would it not be very confusing? I've got a few dogs and there's seven of us.

0:31:260:31:33

-We'd have about 14 manuals!

-The trio didn't need a test to uncover the personality of the Dragons,

0:31:330:31:39

-who all seemed to have investment aversion issues.

-In three months, how much have you managed to gross?

0:31:390:31:46

-About £1,700.

-Graham, you have a psychometric test for a dog!

0:31:460:31:52

You cannot value it at £1 million. It's crazy.

0:31:520:31:55

This I could have been convinced on, but you have completely got the financial offer wrong.

0:31:550:32:02

I'm out.

0:32:020:32:04

-So far tonight, none of the entrepreneurs have walked away with the Dragons' cash.

-Oh, sausages!

0:32:040:32:11

To find out how Vicki and Georgia felt about coming so close, press the red button after the programme.

0:32:110:32:18

When planning their pitch, entrepreneurs have a choice -

0:32:210:32:25

do they adopt a serious, formal delivery or go all out and bring a bit of spectacle to the Den?

0:32:250:32:31

Our next entrepreneur, 32-year-old Andy Robertson, is firmly in the second camp.

0:32:310:32:36

Hello.

0:32:440:32:45

Phew!

0:32:490:32:51

Hello.

0:33:050:33:06

My name's Andy, but everyone calls me Sandy because of what I do.

0:33:060:33:12

I'm here today to ask for £100,000 for 10% of my company, Dirty Beach.

0:33:120:33:18

Six years ago, I was homeless in London

0:33:190:33:24

and I made a sand sculpture just for fun on the Thames. And someone threw a pound at me.

0:33:240:33:29

So I kept doing it and it's turned into my full-time job, my career,

0:33:290:33:34

I travel round making sculptures. I built an installation for Brad Pitt in the Cannes Film Festival.

0:33:340:33:41

I've done some work with Banksy.

0:33:410:33:44

I've done all sorts. I've made the world's largest sand sofa with Dexter Fletcher.

0:33:440:33:50

So I go round to festivals, events.

0:33:500:33:53

We don't make much money. The Isle of Wight Festival paid us £2,500 to go there.

0:33:530:33:58

We made £2,500 selling music. But if we sell drinks, food, tea, coffee, sandwiches,

0:33:580:34:04

we can make a lot of money at these festivals.

0:34:040:34:07

So this is what I'm asking from you today. 100 grand in this...beach company.

0:34:070:34:15

I'll have a quick look at this.

0:34:150:34:17

-By bringing a bit of the seaside into the Den...

-It really is sand!

0:34:200:34:24

..South Londoner Sandy Robertson hopes to catch the Dragons' imagination.

0:34:240:34:29

Having spent six years creating sand sculptures for free, he now believes there's money to be made

0:34:290:34:35

from the crowds they attract. He needs £100,000 to put his plan into action.

0:34:350:34:40

Andy/Sandy... I have three questions for you.

0:34:400:34:45

-Yeah.

-Number one. Where did you get your hat?

-This was a present from my girlfriend.

-Can I have a look?

0:34:450:34:53

-If it gets windy...

-Does it suit me?

-Very apt. I'd keep it if I was you.

0:34:590:35:04

-Yeah, I quite like that. So it's £100,000 for the hat?

-Yes.

0:35:040:35:08

-And my time and my company.

-Right. Well, we'll keep that in abeyance for the moment.

0:35:080:35:14

Number two. What do you wear under your kilt?

0:35:140:35:18

-Em, I don't wear anything under the kilt.

-Really? That's a bit dangerous with sand!

0:35:180:35:24

And number three... which part of the business are you actually asking for investment in?

0:35:240:35:31

This is the thing. If you have a bar, a lot of the expense is the venue that it is,

0:35:310:35:37

but we could run a beach bar and run it from a little shack,

0:35:370:35:42

but you can still cater hundreds, thousands. We just expand by building more sofas.

0:35:420:35:48

Sandy...

0:35:480:35:50

I think what you're suggesting is that you could open a beach bar and save a lot of money

0:35:510:35:57

-because instead of buying furniture you would make it from sand.

-Yeah.

0:35:570:36:02

This is the draw to the beach bar, yeah.

0:36:020:36:06

So pop-up bars at festivals and events and they could be anywhere on the planet where there's an event

0:36:060:36:13

or where there's sand or we can put it in if it's not. At Glastonbury,

0:36:130:36:17

if we had a beach bar there, it could make a killing.

0:36:170:36:20

OK, so you're going to ship sand to Glastonbury, build sand beaches and sell beer?

0:36:200:36:27

Yeah.

0:36:270:36:29

You cannot be for real, Sandy.

0:36:290:36:32

It seems Sandy's business vision isn't shared by an incredulous Duncan Bannatyne.

0:36:320:36:38

Can the quirky entrepreneur remain upbeat and convince Theo Paphitis of his sand-sculpting scheme?

0:36:380:36:44

Sandy, we're here to make money.

0:36:450:36:49

And to invest in people who can show us how they're going to make money,

0:36:490:36:53

not if we give them our 100 grand that they're going to go around saying, "Oh, I might do this.

0:36:530:36:59

"You know, I did make some money once. I don't know where it went. Hey, cool."

0:36:590:37:05

-That's nonsense. Have you got a business plan?

-Yes.

0:37:050:37:09

What is the business plan that will make me a return?

0:37:090:37:13

I've done a lot of travelling and found some good sites that are perfect for a permanent beach bar.

0:37:130:37:19

So Miami would be a great place. And there's a beach bar in St Tropez

0:37:190:37:25

-where they count their good days...

-Stop. Let me give you a clue here.

0:37:250:37:30

A business plan does consist of some words, but alongside those words there's some numbers, right?

0:37:300:37:37

I spoke to a guy who runs a bar at a festival and they turn over 70 grand in the weekend.

0:37:370:37:44

I spoke to a guy who is a nuclear physicist!

0:37:450:37:49

It doesn't mean I know anything about being a nuclear physicist.

0:37:490:37:53

You know what, Andy?

0:37:540:37:57

By all means come in here, quirkily dressed,

0:37:570:38:01

showing your skills. You're obviously bright, obviously talented.

0:38:010:38:07

But - and there's a big but - what you haven't got is a detailed plan

0:38:070:38:13

of how you're going to make this money, how we'll get our return and what a great business we'll build.

0:38:130:38:19

You haven't done that today.

0:38:190:38:22

-It's very disappointing.

-OK.

-So I'm going to wish you luck, but I'm afraid to say I'm out.

0:38:230:38:30

Not good for Sandy as his business dream receives short shrift.

0:38:300:38:35

Will he fare any better under the scrutiny of Deborah Meaden?

0:38:350:38:41

-So how much do you think you value this business at?

-I value it at £1 million.

0:38:420:38:47

Yeah.

0:38:470:38:48

Now to support a business valued at £1 million, there's got to be some numbers that tell an investor

0:38:480:38:54

this is going to be worth putting my cash in because you are going to get a return.

0:38:540:39:01

So take one bar. What have you got to do? How much money will it take to do that? How much will you earn?

0:39:010:39:07

To set up, I'd like to put about 50, 60 grand into the beach bar

0:39:070:39:12

and then we could be turning over five, ten grand a night.

0:39:120:39:17

-What kind of margins?

-I think we're talking about... Numbers(!)

0:39:170:39:21

I've got them all written down. I do know a lot about bars.

0:39:210:39:26

-My parents owned a few pubs in the Midlands, so I grew up in pubs.

-So what are the normal margins

0:39:260:39:33

when you're running a bar?

0:39:330:39:35

Er...I can't remember off the top of my head.

0:39:350:39:40

Sandy, I'll tell you, to get investment you have to have something that I can't do.

0:39:400:39:44

You've got that. I can't do that.

0:39:440:39:48

But that doesn't make the money. The mechanics of making the money sits around running the bars,

0:39:480:39:54

getting the licences, having all of the knowledge about running bars.

0:39:540:39:58

That's the bit that makes the money, that gives you your USP. But you don't know how to do it.

0:39:580:40:05

-That's because I've never ran a bar in my life.

-That's my point!

-I've worked in bars...

0:40:050:40:11

-That's my point.

-Yeah.

-You don't even know what the margins are.

0:40:110:40:15

I'm out.

0:40:180:40:21

A second Dragon walks away from the deal

0:40:210:40:25

and the once-optimistic Sandy is now looking shell-shocked, but three Dragons still remain.

0:40:250:40:30

Will Peter Jones see opportunity where his rivals have not?

0:40:300:40:35

Sandy, I think they're pretty tough on you. I actually personally think it is an amazing piece of art.

0:40:350:40:43

And actually I can see

0:40:440:40:47

a hotel, for example, saying,

0:40:470:40:51

"For two or three nights, we would like to have somebody come in and sculpt for a gala night

0:40:510:40:56

"the most amazing beach sculptures."

0:40:560:40:59

-I get that.

-Yeah.

-But the issue is the beach bar will never make money.

0:40:590:41:06

Drop it.

0:41:060:41:08

You will be far better to keep doing what you're doing because it gives you

0:41:080:41:13

what you're good at, but at the same time it gives you an income.

0:41:130:41:17

I can't invest because it's not a business at the moment.

0:41:180:41:23

-So I'm going to say I'm out, but I'm going to wish you the very best of luck.

-Sandy...

0:41:230:41:28

-How old did you say you were?

-32.

-32.

0:41:280:41:32

Well, you know, when I was 29 I virtually lived on a beach in the Channel Islands.

0:41:320:41:38

I had no money. And I decided that I was going to start making money because I wanted to have children

0:41:380:41:45

and children need clothes and food so my whole life changed at 30.

0:41:450:41:49

But then I found that I enjoyed business so I kept doing business

0:41:490:41:54

and it was great, but the money was a sideline to enjoying the business.

0:41:540:41:58

Em, I can see you're enjoying life, but I just can't see you enjoying the business or making money.

0:41:580:42:05

-So for that reason I'm out.

-All right.

0:42:050:42:10

Sandy, I don't want you to look so dejected because I tell you,

0:42:120:42:17

if nothing else, you've made me laugh and brightened my day up.

0:42:170:42:21

-That's made me happy.

-But it's not investable,

0:42:210:42:26

-so I've got to say I'm out, but don't give up, you know.

-All right, thanks.

0:42:260:42:32

So it's all over for Sandy. He dared to dream but these Dragons deal only in reality.

0:42:340:42:40

He leaves with nothing.

0:42:400:42:43

I came prepared with the business plan and my numbers, but I didn't have the bar numbers in my head.

0:42:460:42:54

I should have wrote them down on my hands.

0:42:540:42:57

Other entrepreneurs who tried and failed in the Den included Lancaster-based Nikki Hesford,

0:43:030:43:09

who put on a show for the investors.

0:43:090:43:12

She wanted £50,000 of the Dragons' cash.

0:43:140:43:17

The business was formed after realising there was a need for lingerie clothing, swimwear,

0:43:210:43:27

everything for ladies with big boobs.

0:43:270:43:30

-Whilst four Dragons did their best to assess Nikki's business...

-What you're saying is

0:43:300:43:35

-all the big brands of lingerie are missing the point?

-There's only one brand in the world

0:43:350:43:41

manufacturing for big-busted ladies.

0:43:410:43:43

So can you give me some insight into the trading figures?

0:43:430:43:47

So far we've turned over just short of £30,000.

0:43:470:43:50

Nikki, you are desperate to talk to the Dragon to my right.

0:43:500:43:55

Entrepreneur be warned. Pitching to such an expert in your field can be a high-risk strategy.

0:43:550:44:01

You're obviously incredibly passionate, but why do you think a lot of people stop at DD?

0:44:010:44:07

It's obviously the safer market.

0:44:070:44:10

You can grade a bra up to DD, the same fabrication.

0:44:100:44:14

The minute you go over DD, the cost of manufacturing goes up, your margin gets hit.

0:44:140:44:20

It's a totally different bra.

0:44:200:44:23

-You're not going to make the sort of numbers that you think. I'm out.

-Thank you, Theo.

0:44:230:44:29

Next were business partners Al Campbell and Gerard Dare

0:44:310:44:34

who needed £75,000 for their handy, on-board exercise invention.

0:44:340:44:39

Combating the risk of DVT in flight,

0:44:410:44:45

a work out in just a couple of minutes will ensure good blood flow even while sitting.

0:44:450:44:50

As frequent flyers, the multi-millionaires were keen to test their claims.

0:44:500:44:55

-Am I doing this right? It don't seem to be doing anything!

-Yeah, that's all it does.

0:44:550:45:01

This is just another way to exercise on a plane. It gives you a focus.

0:45:010:45:06

-How long were you designing this?

-About five or six years.

0:45:060:45:10

-Five or six years?

-On and off.

0:45:100:45:12

In the end, it was fitness expert Duncan Bannatyne who had the final word.

0:45:120:45:17

OK, I can be very, very kind

0:45:170:45:21

or very, very nasty. I'll be nasty first.

0:45:210:45:26

It's fantastic. You'll make a fortune.

0:45:260:45:29

Or I can be kind and say it's a complete and utter waste of time and money

0:45:290:45:36

and, for that reason, I'm out.

0:45:360:45:40

Business is all about relationships and here in the Den we've seen quite a few of a personal kind -

0:45:430:45:49

husbands and wives trying to start a business together.

0:45:490:45:52

So let's see how the next couple fare. Geoff and Colette Bell.

0:45:520:45:56

-Hi, Dragons. My name is Geoff Bell.

-Hi. My name's Colette Bell.

0:46:230:46:28

Today we're here to ask for £75,000 for a 15% investment

0:46:280:46:33

in our business, Shampooheads.

0:46:330:46:36

Together, Geoff and I have three children, Annie, Rosie and Robert.

0:46:360:46:39

And it is really down to the fact that, em...

0:46:390:46:44

-(Shampoo.)

-..Shampooheads as a brand, er...

0:46:440:46:49

..was, em, developed by us

0:46:500:46:54

with regard to our children as the main focus of the brand.

0:46:540:46:58

Our market research shows us that children from the age of 2 can instantly recognise characters

0:46:580:47:04

and it plays a place in their minds.

0:47:040:47:06

And we think bath time is the time for children and parents to talk.

0:47:060:47:11

At present, we are registered within the UK. We also have the brand registered in Europe

0:47:110:47:17

and the United States of America. We also own all the domain names for the characters and Shampooheads.

0:47:170:47:24

We believe we have a fantastic brand, a fantastic product and that we're a great team.

0:47:240:47:32

We'll be happy to take any questions.

0:47:320:47:36

A few nerves on show from Tyneside couple Geoff and Colette Bell,

0:47:380:47:42

but they hope the Dragons will see potential in their character-based shampoo range for children

0:47:420:47:48

and invest £75,000. They're offering 15% in return.

0:47:480:47:54

Hilary Devey looks impressed.

0:47:550:47:58

-Brilliant idea. Love it.

-Thank you.

-You know, I look back to when my son was a baby.

0:47:590:48:06

-It was terrible to try to get him in the bath.

-Yeah, yeah.

-That's...

0:48:060:48:11

So I've got Awesome Annie here. What's she like?

0:48:110:48:15

She's our daughter, but she's the role model. The one everyone looks up to, confident, the eldest child.

0:48:150:48:22

She takes after her mum.

0:48:220:48:24

Is there a specific reason why the product can only be used at age 2?

0:48:260:48:30

-Em...

-The brand is actually to be for children from age 2 to 6.

0:48:300:48:35

Only because the pump is a child-friendly pump, so it's a measured amount

0:48:350:48:41

-to create the independence.

-But not leaving a two-year-old in the bath?

-Not at all, no.

0:48:410:48:46

It's been all tested in other areas like dermatologically, tear-free.

0:48:460:48:51

-So it is clinically-approved?

-Yes. We paid a lot of money to have that done.

-We've left no stone unturned.

0:48:510:48:57

-Tell me where you're at, at the moment?

-We've got 41,000 units for the UK's leading chemist chain

0:48:570:49:04

in 483 stores across the UK.

0:49:040:49:06

-Which stores?

-It's Boots.

-Boots. So Boots have already

0:49:060:49:11

-given you an order for 41,000 units?

-Yeah.

0:49:110:49:14

The backing of a high street multiple is bound to go down well with any cash-hungry investor.

0:49:180:49:24

Now retail magnate Theo Paphitis wants to drill down further into the detail of that deal.

0:49:240:49:30

-So there's 41,000 units on the way to their head office now to be distributed?

-Yeah.

0:49:330:49:39

-How much is the cost price per unit?

-The brand itself, it retails at £2.99.

0:49:390:49:45

-Yeah.

-It costs us to manufacture, on average, about 65p per unit.

-Yeah.

0:49:450:49:50

-And we make 45p off each unit.

-Approximately.

0:49:500:49:54

-So you're selling it to them for £1.10?

-£1.10.

0:49:540:49:58

And they've given us a promotional site within the store to launch it as a new product.

0:49:580:50:03

-Have you got a gondola end?

-A mid-size gondola.

-Brilliant.

0:50:030:50:08

-Did you have to pay them for that?

-No.

-They gave you that free? For how many weeks?

-Four.

-Four.

0:50:080:50:13

-Wow.

-We know how much that's worth.

-A lot. They obviously believe in the product.

0:50:130:50:19

-They're really excited about this.

-OK, so have they given you a forecast?

0:50:190:50:24

-They say they're going to be selling two per week per store.

-So that's 1,000 a week.

-Yeah.

0:50:240:50:30

-OK, thank you.

-Colette, Geoff, hi.

-Hi, Deborah.

0:50:300:50:35

So far, amazing. So why do you need the cash?

0:50:350:50:39

We haven't got a huge cash flow. We built this business from scratch with any spare cash we've had

0:50:390:50:46

-and we've also borrowed money from my father.

-So how much cash have you used so far?

0:50:460:50:51

Up to now about £60,000.

0:50:510:50:53

And do you have any loans other than from your father?

0:50:530:50:57

We've kind of exhausted everything that we can do from the people that we know.

0:50:570:51:03

We know you could help us take this as far as we want it to go.

0:51:030:51:07

We love it, we really believe in it.

0:51:070:51:10

It's really our dream to create the world's most successful children's haircare brand.

0:51:100:51:16

Geoff and Colette have yet to put a foot wrong in the Den

0:51:180:51:23

and the Dragons are clearly enthralled. What's their background? Duncan Bannatyne wants to know.

0:51:230:51:30

-Geoff, Colette, is this your first business?

-Yeah.

-What did you do before?

0:51:320:51:38

-I've worked in professional haircare for 14 years.

-For whom?

0:51:380:51:43

L'Oreal Professional for a number of years. And more recently the Mascolo Group, who own Toni and Guy's.

0:51:430:51:50

I have just handed my notice in because this is what I believe in.

0:51:500:51:55

Hmm. OK.

0:51:560:51:58

-You've done extremely well.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

0:52:000:52:05

I've got a funny feeling you might end up with five offers in a minute.

0:52:070:52:13

The couple seem to have silenced the rival investors.

0:52:290:52:32

No Dragon is prepared to break cover.

0:52:370:52:41

Right.

0:52:510:52:53

What would you like?

0:52:540:52:57

If you had a magic wand, you come into the Den, you've done the painful bit,

0:52:580:53:04

-what would you like to come out of this now?

-We want the right investor to be as passionate as we are.

0:53:040:53:11

Make it the best it can be.

0:53:120:53:15

So who would you like your investment from?

0:53:190:53:22

That's a question I'd ask you. Who thinks they can bring the most to supporting our business and brand?

0:53:240:53:31

I think that the product is fantastic.

0:53:400:53:43

Having kids is quite an interesting thing. I've got five kids.

0:53:430:53:48

I've got two children in the age bracket of the brand,

0:53:480:53:53

so I think that plays a part.

0:53:530:53:55

-DUNCAN:

-I think what you've done is great.

0:53:580:54:01

I do have a product that I sell which is not children's,

0:54:010:54:06

-but online I do sell shampoos and things like that.

-OK.

0:54:060:54:11

In a remarkable turnaround, it's now the Dragons who are pitching to the entrepreneurs.

0:54:130:54:19

I think your product's great, but, moreover, you two are great.

0:54:190:54:24

-I know I could work with you, I know I could add value.

-Thank you.

0:54:240:54:29

But Geoff and Colette have yet to actually receive an offer.

0:54:290:54:34

-THEO:

-Right, guys. Moment of truth.

0:54:360:54:39

You've got five Dragons all interested. You're very investable. I don't think anyone would argue.

0:54:390:54:46

If you'd like to work with one of us, speak now.

0:54:460:54:50

-Do you mind if we go to the back for a moment just to discuss it?

-No, do that.

0:54:530:54:59

Right. What are we going to do?

0:55:000:55:03

(I think we should go with...

0:55:030:55:06

(But I like Peter as well. He's a dad.

0:55:080:55:12

(Do you think that's the right decision?

0:55:150:55:19

(All right, OK.)

0:55:190:55:21

Thank you, everyone, for listening today. We're really pleased that you like what we've done.

0:55:300:55:36

It's amazing to us that you do because, obviously, you're the experts.

0:55:360:55:43

We'd like to ask for two Dragons if that's OK.

0:55:450:55:49

Obviously, that would be up to yourselves.

0:55:490:55:53

So we would like to ask for Theo...

0:55:570:56:00

..and Hilary, if you would be able to somehow come to an agreement together.

0:56:020:56:07

I-I don't have any issue

0:56:170:56:21

-in backing you two.

-OK.

0:56:210:56:23

I'd be quite happy

0:56:240:56:26

to offer you the £75,000

0:56:260:56:29

for 15%, on my own.

0:56:290:56:32

OK.

0:56:320:56:33

And I'd also share it with Hilary,

0:56:340:56:38

but I'm going to be wanting 10%.

0:56:390:56:42

OK.

0:56:420:56:43

Thank you.

0:56:460:56:48

I would be happy to go for the 20%, sharing 10% each with Theo and myself,

0:56:540:57:01

for the full 75K.

0:57:010:57:04

Yeah?

0:57:090:57:11

-Yeah.

-We'll gladly accept.

-Yeah, we'll gladly accept.

-It's a deal!

0:57:110:57:16

Geoff and Colette have done it. It was a somewhat unorthodox negotiation,

0:57:160:57:21

but it resulted in getting two well-connected Dragons on-board.

0:57:210:57:26

-Elated!

-Yeah, excited.

0:57:300:57:32

We thought they might offer, but because no one had offered,

0:57:320:57:37

we kind of felt it was a strange situation. "Who do you want?"

0:57:370:57:41

-Well done, you.

-Well done, you.

0:57:410:57:43

We quite often see entrepreneurs in the Den suffering from what I call Shaky Start syndrome,

0:57:520:57:58

but some of the most entertaining pitches are those where a nervous beginning has a triumphant end

0:57:580:58:05

and so it was with Geoff and Colette who turned things round so emphatically,

0:58:050:58:10

they actually got to pick any Dragon they wanted.

0:58:100:58:14

For more on why the Dragons were so impressed with them, hit the red button now

0:58:140:58:19

to access behind the scenes interviews with Hilary and Theo. Goodbye.

0:58:190:58:25

Next week in the Den:

0:58:260:58:28

If I've been harsh and you have been listening, it's a great exercise.

0:58:280:58:33

It's absolutely stupid.

0:58:330:58:36

I'm not going to waste my words.

0:58:360:58:38

This looks...such a great business.

0:58:380:58:41

KIOSK PLAYS "Wedding March"

0:58:420:58:45

I can't say I've stood over anybody and watched them saw wood.

0:58:450:58:49

What is going on?! I have never, ever seen... What have you done?!

0:58:490:58:55

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0:59:070:59:10

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