Episode 4 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons,

five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.

Over the coming weeks, they'll make or break the dreams

of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

You are not a willing partner here.

Actually, if I'm honest with you, it's a bit boring.

I don't think you should be in a position to stand there and say

you're not going to negotiate.

For every one idea such as this,

there are probably several thousand that just don't even make it.

The multi-millionaire investors

have each built up their fortunes from scratch.

Retail magnate Theo Paphitis.

Hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.

Leisure industry expert Deborah Meaden.

Queen of logistics Hilary Devey.

And telecoms giant Peter Jones.

The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment

and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.

Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs

walk away with their money?

Welcome to the Dragons' Den.

Once again, cash-hungry entrepreneurs are preparing to face

the five fearsome Dragons, all hoping to convince them

that their business ideas are worth millions.

They'll face tough questioning,

but if our multi-millionaires see a money-making opportunity,

any of the entrepreneurs could walk away with a much needed investment

and a deal that could change their lives.

First into the Den is former chat show host Chrystal Rose.

She hopes to secure the Dragons' backing for her latest venture.

Hi. My name is Chrystal Rose.

I'm here in the Den to ask for an investment of £80,000

so that I may produce a television game show pilot

for a 25% equity share.

I am an avid Scrabble player

and member of the Middlesex Scrabble League

and I've invented three new card games all with an emphasis on words.

I've already licensed one of my games to a toy company in America.

The other two I've amalgamated into a television game show format

and I'm hoping that you Dragons will help me

to show off the first round of Lost For Words!

-Can you please come and...

-Oh, I can't say no. Come on, guys.

Will you help me play the game? Thank you so much.

# Lost for words, lost for words. #

Thank you. Just in the order that you usually play. Can you see?

A big one just for you, Peter. Look at how I thought about you.

Thank you.

The whole aim of round one is to get control of the game.

I'm going to give you a definition and you have to tell me what word I'm defining.

The first Dragon to buzz in takes control of the game.

So, the definition is, "a priceless gem, usually colourless".

BUZZER Peter!

-You're first.

-Diamond.

-Yeah!

Diamonds is the correct answer. Now you have to nominate

one of the Dragons you would like to get rid of to spell a ten-letter word.

-But the thing is, you have to spell the word backwards.

-Oh, that's easy.

-Theo.

-Theo!

-I'm dyslexic.

-This is useless for me!

-It's all just fun.

It's all for fun. OK. Well, let's all help.

The definition is "air", the word, "atmosphere". Go.

CAR HORN

I buzzed in.

-You do it then, please.

-Oxygen.

No, no, no.

You've got to spell "atmosphere" backwards.

-You've got to get the word right first, haven't you?

-E, R, E, H...

P, S...

O?

-M?

-T.

-A. Ah!

Brilliant. Thank you so much for being good sports.

A rare moment in the Den, as for once,

it's the entrepreneur quizzing the Dragons.

South London Scrabble champion Chrystal Rose

believes she's devised the next big television game show

and she needs £80,000 to produce a pilot episode.

Theo Paphitis looks intrigued by the vivacious businesswoman.

Now, what I want to know, can you tell us who Chrystal is?

Chrystal Rose was the first woman in this country

-to host an eponymous talk show.

-A what?

A talk show that's named after the person that's hosting it.

Eponymous. I love words. You're going to find out that I love words.

So before Vanessa, before Trisha, it was The Chrystal Rose show.

I see that you were a fan(!)

-So you did this show for how long?

-I did it for four years.

That came about as a result of me seeing The Oprah Winfrey Show,

deciding that's what I wanted to do, to be a television presenter,

even though I had no previous presentation or production skills.

So, I got a team of 40 people together

and then I produced my own pilot.

So, if I gave you 80,000 quid, tell me, what would I get back?

Oh, my goodness.

The profits will be about £600,000 and that's just sales in the UK.

I want to write this down because I'm interested in big numbers.

-Words? Numbers. So, £600,000 profit.

-That's just the game show.

We've got the board games which I've already done.

There are lots of prototypes of that. We licensed that.

We've got so many different streams, the apps, the... You know.

Let's make some money, honey!

Confidence from Chrystal,

but it's a curious business proposition for the Dragons,

and Duncan Bannatyne seems perplexed.

-What do the contestants get out of it?

-Money.

-Up to £250,000 they can win.

-What's your budget per ep?

Not more than £20,000, because...

If your budget per ep is 20K, that means each ep,

the average win is less than 20K, cos that comes out of the budget.

No, because also, you bring on a sponsor to cover anything over that.

I mean, the industry are telling me "There's nothing like your game",

so you got elements there that haven't been seen on TV before,

which is a really good thing. In fact, I've already sent it to a producer who's interested.

He used to run Action Time.

They made all of the game shows on television, from Catchphrase,

any game show that you can think of.

Chrystal, to think of a topic

and mention a word related to it and then spell something backwards,

you think that that hasn't been invented before?

I played this with family and friends and when they said,

"Oh, this is great", I didn't really take their word for it.

I made sure that I went and had meetings

with the people in the industry who have got the background,

and they're the ones who've said, "You've got something good here."

Erm... It doesn't wash with me.

You've come up with somewhere where we can stand,

a few knobs that we can press and some different colour lights...

Apart from that, I don't see what you've got.

Chrystal's nerve is put to the test

as Peter Jones offers up a dose of reality.

But the sanguine entrepreneur looks unruffled.

Will she remain as composed under scrutiny from Deborah Meaden?

This is a difficult one, because this is an area

that you pretty well need specialist knowledge in.

The only thing I can really concentrate on

is your business background.

Sure.

I need you to tell me

why you are in a position to turn this into a money-making investment.

All I've done through my life is run businesses.

I look young, right, but I'm not. It's good skin care.

But I ran an events company myself,

so I ran events inside and outside of London.

I've run a clothes shop in the West End of London,

I've run a nightclub in Streatham Hill.

I've done lots of different businesses because I ploughed my own money into them.

I've wanted to be at the helm.

What's your biggest business success?

Running an events company called Diamonds,

which I did for seven years.

What was the turnover of that business?

Between £500,000 and £750,000 a year.

And how much profit did that make?

About £240,000.

Impressive responses from Chrystal, and all five Dragons are still in.

Will Theo Paphitis be the first to make up his mind?

Chrystal.

Why haven't you spoken to the production companies

and just got somebody to put the £80,000 in

and they can sell it for you?

Do you know what?

I might well be able to get £80,000 from somebody,

but I wouldn't get one of you.

OK.

But if I was to say to you, "I'll give you £80,000...

"..but I actually want equity of something between 25% and 50%",

what would your initial reaction be?

-I would explore it. Yeah.

-That's good.

That's what I was hoping you'd say.

The fact is, you're offering me

exactly the same of what these production houses would ask for,

and they know what they're doing.

They've got the contacts. I haven't got the contacts.

But it's not the route that I wanted to take.

I wanted my own production company

with hopefully one of the Dragons on board.

Then what you should've done is pitched a production company.

A business. Not a show.

Right.

-And you didn't pitch that, did you?

-Sure.

It's not an investable proposition.

I'm out.

A devastating conclusion from Theo Paphitis,

and Chrystal's confidence takes a hit.

And Peter Jones looks to have made up his mind too.

Chrystal, I think for every one idea such as this,

there are probably several thousand that just don't even make it,

and whilst I think that you are clearly gregarious,

you've got great spirit, you've done a lot of things,

there are so many people that actually have teams around them

coming up with concepts every minute of every day

and they still don't know whether it can work or whether it can't.

-I'm going to tell you right now, I'm not.

-OK.

I think there are far better game shows on television now

with much more interaction.

And I've got to agree,

the right venue is a production company.

I've got to say, I'm out.

OK.

Chrystal.

I actually have listened to you describe the show

and took part in it, and actually,

if I'm honest with you, I think it's a bit boring.

I don't think it's a great show. I don't think it's a great concept.

So, that's why I'm not going to invest in it, so I'm out.

OK.

Four Dragons out and the experienced businesswoman now looks forlorn.

Only Deborah Meaden can save her from complete failure in the Den.

When looking for an investment,

either I know something about that market,

or the person who's pitching to me is able to explain that market,

but actually, television is different.

So it might be a great idea,

but that's the problem. I don't know.

Trust me.

I think that you should have faith in everything that I've said,

have faith in me and my background.

Well, you know, entrepreneurs take risks,

but they are calculated risks,

and the issue is that I don't have enough to make my calculation on.

-I'm out.

-Thank you.

Thanks very much.

-Pleasure meeting you. PETER:

-Good luck.

A wealth of advice for Chrystal, but not so rich in cash.

She leaves with nothing.

In business, your Eureka moments can come at any time.

The founder of computer game giant Atari once said,

"Everyone who's taken a shower has an idea,

"it's the person that does something about it who makes a difference."

Tony Heath from Warrington did something about it.

Frustrated by foreshortened showers,

he, along with brother Sid, invented a solution that now needs a £50,000 investment.

If you've ever been to a camping and caravan site,

you may be familiar with the non-concussive type shower valve.

These are the ones that you have to keep pressing otherwise the water stops.

We would now like to show you a demonstration of the Showerfriend.

Instead of repeatedly pressing the button as he was doing,

he now just attaches the Showerfriend,

and bingo, he now has both hands free to shower.

Peter Jones proved the Dragons really do have experience

in a wide range of situations.

I think it's ingenious.

-I've been in those sort of showers where you press the button.

-Really?

It's actually a house that I bought.

Take the system out and put a tap in!

Instead of changing the bathroom I could just buy this for nine quid.

A promising start perhaps, but Theo Paphitis had doubts over demand.

I've used these things before in gyms.

You're banging it, you get water on you, you rub your bits.

It's never really been a problem.

At leisure centres, camping and caravan sites,

if they're not being maintained, they're down to three and four seconds.

It's a major job to have a shower.

Despite putting up a valiant defence of their idea, in the end,

the brothers ran out of Dragon options.

The buttons are introduced because they're water-saving.

Not only would I not want it used on my site,

I wouldn't want it to be sold on my site.

If you've got a problem in a gym

where these are coming out after a few seconds...

leave it, and join a quality gym.

I'm out.

Age is no barrier to success in the Den.

If the idea's good enough, the Dragons will back it.

I expect that's what 22-year-old student Harrison Woods is hoping.

He's next to descend the stairs.

Hello, Dragons.

My name is Harrison Woods, founder of Primal Parking,

and I'm asking for £60,000 in exchange for 20% equity.

Primal is a letting agency for privately owned parking spaces,

operating around a functional online site and phone application.

We allow individuals and businesses the opportunity to advertise

their unused or under-utilised parking to gain additional revenue.

To book a space, type in the postcode or event you wish to park around.

Primal will then scour its database,

generating the most appropriate results within a one-mile radius,

and it's only once we then let out the space, do we take a fee

of 15% plus VAT on gross monthly rentals.

Further to this,

we have additional revenue streams such as the Parking Guardian.

It's an automatic parking barrier which fits into your space

within 15 seconds, and then your space is protected from being taken.

We hope when you think of parking, it's through Primal. I welcome any questions.

A pitch bursting with enthusiasm from Bolton-based Harrison Woods.

With a £60,000 investment,

he planned to capitalise on the thousands of unused parking spaces across the UK.

Deborah Meaden is first to tackle the excitable young entrepreneur.

Thank you, Harrison.

So, are you operating at the moment? Are you live?

I'm not live. The online site isn't live.

The barrier sales are,

and it's helped me fund the initial investment

-in the site and phone application.

-OK.

-Who else does this?

-There's two companies.

ParkatmyHouse, which has been operating since 2006,

and there's one, ParkLet, which has been operating since 2004.

So, you've got two big competitors who've been there

a long time before you, so what's different

between what you're offering and what they offer?

What... At the moment it's a very...

I think there's room for someone else to come in the market,

especially with the fact that every day,

knocking through doors, I go to a business,

speak to what parking they need, and it's... The... It's crying out...

Look, Harrison. You need to calm down a bit.

What are they NOT doing that you can do?

Their operations is lacking in some areas, which I believe I can...

Specifically.

They do not have a phone application which allows instant booking.

-So the only point of difference at the moment...

-Yes.

-is that they don't have a... But you don't have a phone app, do you?

-No.

At the moment the app is developed

and I've been given a date of two weeks until we launch

and you can download it on your phone and...

A nervy start for Harrison.

How will the fledgling businessman cope

under interrogation from Theo Paphitis?

I'm Theo. Listen, you're an enthusiastic fella.

You've come bounding in here.

You've got an idea, but that's it.

I've managed to...

This, this... I've got 600 registered people

who are willing to put the details,

-and that's just from me, between university...

-Harrison.

It's going to cost a lot of money to actually build the site and create the app.

It's being finan... None of the...

The investment would go... This has all been financed.

-This has all been financed?

-I didn't...

Er... Uh... Someone owns 20% of the company,

who owns a web design company,

who's putting their staff and assets into building this site.

And they're going to build the app as well?

-Yes.

-Excellent.

Harrison. Talk to me about

the people that you say are writing the app.

Jonathan, I met him through barrier sales

and I knocked on his door and got talking to him

and then he offered to fund and build the site.

-And how qualified is he?

-He's owned a web design company for the past 15 years.

He specialises in e-commerce sites, originally.

He's experienced through selling companies online. He's got great experience in it.

How old are you, Harrison?

-22.

-22.

The charming Harrison settles enough

to reveal some substance behind his business.

Now, Duncan Bannatyne wants to drill down into the detail.

Who's your typical customer,

who's going to rent out his car-parking space?

Anyone who doesn't utilise it.

My brother has a parking space laid dormant. His girlfriend has one...

-So, it's residential parking?

-Residential parking spaces.

You'd be surprised... All these apartments next to buildings,

there'll be dormant car parks under there which aren't used...

-But it's got to be limited?

-No.

I know the prices, know what I can achieve,

-I've got people signed up...

-The apartment block

-I have a company flat in, in Covent Garden, has got 50 apartments.

-Yep.

How many car-parking spaces would you expect to be in the basement?

If they've got 50 builds, I'd expect 20,

30 parking spaces in the building.

Three.

-Three.

-Yep.

This is just...not working for me.

I'm not seeing this as a business. I'm out.

Thank you.

A disappointing setback for the young entrepreneur

as he loses his first Dragon.

And Deborah Meaden is now ready to show her hand.

There are three reasons this business would work.

First-mover advantage -

you haven't got that.

You've got something that the others can't do -

you couldn't convince me what that was.

Thirdly,

you have come up with something completely new...

..you haven't done that.

I won't be investing, Harrison,

-and I'm out.

-Thank you.

I think it's a shame that you didn't bring your programmers with you,

because, to me,

it's all supposition - y'know,

it's IF the website gets up and running,

-IF there are...

-I have letters

from companies I've spoken to who are going to adopt the system...

But that's not sufficient

for anybody to invest in you.

I think you're far too precipitous being here today.

I'm out.

The early infectious enthusiasm withers away

and just two Dragons remain.

Will Peter Jones see something in Harrison that his rivals have not?

Harrison.

I have to say, I do quite like the concept.

The sad thing is that it's not there. Yet.

-So, putting this to one side...

-Yeah.

..can I ask a little bit about your background,

what have you done up until this point?

I'm at university, studying geography at Manchester.

I was at Liverpool University, two years ago

and then I did a ski season, had an accident,

quite a bad leg injury, it put me out for a while.

I started importing these products.

I've got a lot of ideas bubbling in me

and things which I've pushed and driven...

-What did they cost to buy?

-£50.85.

OK, what have you sold them for?

£250 a unit.

And I've sold 67 units, selling it direct through myself,

-knocking on doors!

-Wow!

-You made £12,000 just selling those?

-Just selling them.

Harrison, I do feel that at some stage if you carry on that tenacity,

you will achieve.

So, if I give you £60,000,

what am I going to get back?

Net turnover in the first year is £120,000.

-The first year, it's a loss of £68,000.

-Right.

Second year, its turnover is £430,000.

Profit of £170,000.

-Right.

-And final year is £1.75 million.

Profit of £790,000.

Of your competitors, have any of them

-made anything like these profits?

-All I know is that

reportedly ParkatmyHouse, they had investment late last year

and they've made over £10 million, for space users within the UK alone.

Harrison.

There is something about you.

My head says...

he's going to be really high maintenance and difficult to manage.

My gut says...

at 22...

did you have the cojones...

to pitch in front of five Dragons?

I think I would have struggled.

I'm going to make you an offer.

The reason why I'm doing it is...

I want to be there...

..when you make it.

But, you are a pure...

out and out punt.

So, I'm going to offer you half of the money,

for 20%.

Thank you, Theo.

In a dramatic turnaround, Theo Paphitis

offers an unlikely lifeline.

But strict Den rules state

Harrison must receive the full amount he's asking for

or he walks away with nothing.

His only hope now lies with Peter Jones.

-How are you feeling Harrison?

-Pretty...pretty, ah, nervous.

What you've pitched, anybody could do that.

But then again, you did it.

What would you like to happen, Harrison?

I think, the dream would be for both yourself and Theo

to be involved in this with me.

Since Theo's given that offer, I haven't touched my pen.

But...

..I wrote down...

..£60,000, the full amount of money,

for 40% of your business.

Which was the offer that I was going to make to you,

and it's the offer that I will make to you,

and I'd be more than happy to split that offer with Theo.

I'd like to accept both yourself and Theo's offer.

You don't want to think about that? Don't want to negotiate?

I don't want to, I don't want to!

-Brilliant!

-Thank you for your time,

-I appreciate it.

-Well done!

-Thanks.

-I appreciate it.

-Harrison has done it.

Two Dragons came at twice the price, but he really doesn't seem concerned about that.

At the moment, my feelings are... I cannot explain it.

I'm taken back, I honestly am just taken back.

I'll tell my mum and dad first, I'm pretty sure.

I'll wait till I'm in front of them, so they don't fall over in shock!

Many businesses' pitch to the Dragons

centre around life's big events -

ideas inspired by birth and marriage are always popular.

But Barbara Chalmers from Glasgow's business

was based on another stage of the life cycle.

A samba band, personalised cardboard coffin,

that's what I'd like for my funeral.

Final Fling is a niche website.

You can go online, you can make a will, you can record your wishes

and families can access it when they need to.

SHE PLAYS DRUMS

The concept of Barbara's funeral-planning website

certainly grabbed the attention of the Dragons.

I've always got a great belief that your business

should say what it does on the tin.

So, why Final Fling?

I did quite a lot of research before I set out on this

and there was a real celebration actually around that title,

because for people it's like "Yeah, we are all going to die, so let's embrace that."

But confusion reigned

once the Dragons got into the detail of the business.

How much do you hope to turn over, then, in your first year?

-£600,000.

-How much is profit?

-75%.

-Wow!

Then you take off your VAT.

Then you won't be making 75% of that as profit, will you?

Well, 75% of our gross profit,

like 25% of our costs

would have to come off, the rest of it is profit.

Barbara, Barbara! Just a minute!

You've lost me!

Finally, it was the subject matter itself

that marked the finale of Barbara's Den fling.

Quite frankly, while I'm alive, I want to be alive,

I don't want to be spending my life contemplating death. However...

if I did want to talk about it, I would talk to my family about it.

It's not going to work.

-We'll see about that.

-I'm out.

So far tonight, only one entrepreneur

-has received the backing of the multi-millionaire investors.

-Well done.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

Will any of these intrepid businessmen and women

manage to part the Dragons from their hard-earned cash?

The Dragons know the majority of new businesses fail,

so they need big returns from the ones that succeed

to cover the losses on the ones that don't.

Will our next entrepreneur convince them

that her business is a risk worth taking?

Hello, my name is Caroline Brown.

I've come today please to ask for £80,000 of your money,

for 30% of my company.

The Huntingford Company is passionate about thinking up devices

for people as they get older,

and I'd like to position myself to be the essential friend

for the over-60s.

When I was nursing, when I was a bit of an old bag... I had to retrain as a nurse,

and I did it in a district which was brilliant, I really enjoyed myself.

But I came across two huge problems that cropped up frequently.

This is the StickStay.

If you have anything to do with sticks

you have one mission in life and that is to hit the deck, and it's a real nuisance.

So, they can be positioned anywhere.

My ambition is to have one next to every single loo in the country.

The other thing was, older people that find it difficult bending down

to pick up their pet bowls from the floor,

and all the rest of it, so this is the most amazing thing, simple.

eeZee Feeder. Just like that,

they click on and off, very easily.

Problem solved, no bending.

Thank you for your time, thank you.

A jaunty pitch from entrepreneur Caroline Brown from Dorset.

With the UK's ageing population in mind,

she's created simple solutions to backbreaking problems

and needs £80,000 to take her inventions to market.

But Peter Jones looks perplexed.

I don't have much experience in this,

so, there are times in the Den where you've got to draw on expertise

of certain Dragons - you know,

from Theo's retail experience, logistics with Hilary,

marketing, Deborah, but this type of product for the old age individual,

I'm going to have to sit quietly and listen to see what Duncan thinks.

Yes, yes, I know Duncan's background.

What he's referring to is my age.

-No, no, care home experience.

-Yes, yes!

THEY LAUGH

Ooh, touchy!

I actually think that's quite a neat little product.

-Yes.

-If you've got cats. It is. If you don't mind me saying though,

I find this other thing ridiculous.

-Right.

-It isn't, Peter.

-Is it not?

-No.

-I'm really missing it.

My mum, God bless her soul,

-would have loved that.

-Really?

-Yeah.

-Mmm.

-Wow.

What normally happens...?

Well, what normally happens - I mean I don't know, but it won't do it now

because of Whatnot's Law - but if you leave a stick

leaning up against something, it will fall.

Far easier just to click your stick in

than to have to hoick it up from the floor again.

For once, it's a Dragon who's taught a lesson in the Den,

as the confident entrepreneur brings Peter Jones up to speed.

But how will Caroline fare under the scrutiny of Deborah Meaden?

So, is there anything to your knowledge

that exists, for instance, like that pet bowl?

No, there are other things for pets on, like, a step,

but that's from the pet's point of view. It doesn't have to bend down.

-It doesn't help the owner.

-I've got one with a handle already.

Yes, I know the one you mean, but again, it's not a very long handle.

-No. It's not as long as that, but it's quite a long handle.

-Yes,

but again, you'd have to bend down.

-So, have you got any interest?

-The interest that I've received,

apart from everybody surrounding - but you can't count family and friends

because they're probably a bit biased...

but Pets at Home,

I've just entered an innovation contest

for new pet products, which is nice, and the Royal College of Nursing

is taking a huge interest in the StickStay.

A fledgling company perhaps,

but Caroline's products seem to be creating quite a stir.

Now, Duncan Bannatyne

wants to drill down into the numbers.

What do they cost you to make?

-The StickStay costs about 50p, 60p.

-What does it sell for?

Individually, I think I'd sell them for about £3,

say to councils, for loos and things, that's what I've done.

I would probably make...

-about £1.50.

-OK.

There's a huge market out there,

there's about, 12 million-ish

of us that are now pensionable age.

Caroline, I think that's ingenious.

Simple, but does what it says on the tin, so, brilliant.

The pet food bowl...

-there's millions and trillions of them.

-But nobody WANTS to bend down.

A lot of people say you don't have to have any disability to want these.

We all have remote controls at home -

we can fiddle with the television, but we feel we don't want to.

But, I'm not even sure, having that pole, especially for a bigger dog,

is going to be any good, because once that bigger dog

moves around with his tail, he's likely to knock that over.

Yes, yes. It has non-slip...

It's not the slipping, it's the tipping, it's the tipping.

-I have big dogs...

-Yes.

-..and they are clumsy.

I'm not going to say don't do it, I think that's brilliant.

Keep following your dreams on that one, but I shan't be investing, so I'm afraid I'm out.

Thank you for your time anyway.

A blow for Caroline, as she loses her first Dragon.

But there are still four multi-millionaire investors left

and Peter Jones looks ready to show his hand.

It's a nice product

that has a use, you've proved it.

But I can't see how you could make a business

out of those two items. I don't think for £80,000 I'd ever see any money back.

-And if I can't see it, I can't invest.

-No, quite right.

-I'm going to say politely, I'm out.

Thank you anyway, thank you for your time.

If I were you, I'd concentrate on that and spend your time... That's your background,

that's where your contacts are. I'd concentrate on that,

get that sold into the NHS, care homes, whatever.

Because I think that is neat, it's just you've got to sell too many

at such a low unit cost to give an investor a return,

so I'm afraid I won't be investing, I'm out.

Right.

I know quite a lot of old people

and I know from my mother's disability.

She waited and waited and waited and waited...

in fact she HATED to be seen with a stick.

Oh yes, I can sympathise with that.

She would hide it,

rather than let people know she needed a stick.

I applaud the thought and the care that you've put into these products,

but for me, it's not a commercial investment.

-No.

-So, unfortunately, I'm out.

Three Dragons out in quick succession,

and the well-mannered entrepreneur's hopes of investment

now rest solely with Duncan Bannatyne.

I can see a need for it, but this is a very, very,

-very limited market.

-Limited?

-Yeah.

I did invest once in a company that sold this type of product,

these type of aids, and it is a very, very difficult market.

So, I can't see how they can possibly

sell fast enough to make enough money

to give an investor a return.

So for that reason, and that reason only, I'm going to have to say

I'm out.

Right. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

It was an unusually courteous pitch, but the cruel reality is

that Caroline leaves the Den with nothing.

Others who tried and failed in the Den included Rebecca Jane from Manchester,

who having set up many companies of her own,

including a detective agency,

now wanted to help raise the press profile of other small businesses.

We're not your average public relations company.

Journalists get in contact with us, they tell us

what they want to put it in their newspapers and magazines.

We then send out these requests to our subscribers.

If these people were to have paid for advertising in the national press,

they would have paid over £50,000.

What we do is we charge them £15 per month.

Duncan Bannatyne was first to interrogate the confident 27-year-old.

So, the newspaper comes to you

with a request, and you send it to your clients?

-Yes.

-And that's all you do?

-Yes.

We're there to send out the request,

they're there to get themselves in the papers.

That's not PR.

No, that's what I say, it's PR with a difference.

But in the end, Rebecca's new PR model

failed to grab the attention or the cash of these Dragons.

Small business, I totally agree with you, it wants to raise its profile,

but when they engage a PR company,

they want focus, what they don't want is a scattergun approach.

Peter is absolutely right.

As a customer, if I said to you, "How many people do you look after?"

and you said, "300", I would think, "That's not good, is it?"

PR is relationship-driven

and the business that you're pitching is not relationship-driven.

It doesn't work.

So, I'm out.

Simon Zhao from China and business partner James Whybrow

were next into the Den

with an eye-catching pitch for their ornate tea company.

SOULFUL MOOD MUSIC

Flora Tea is not just tea,

it's naturally-flavoured herbal flowers

forming an artistic floral display. Flora Tea - as easy as ABC.

Top marks for presentation,

but it's the proposition that prevails in the Den.

It looks wonderful, but what's been the return to date?

Year one, a loss of £5,000,

year two, £15,000

and this year, lost £18,000.

It wasn't the losses alone that concerned Duncan Bannatyne.

What makes this different from any other tea you can buy?

It's a new way of presenting tea. The people we speak to give us very good feedback.

James, James, you stick the bag in,

and you make the tea and you drink the tea.

How you presented the tea to the teapot doesn't really matter, does it?

In the end, their pitch certainly engaged the senses,

but sadly for the duo, not the one marked business.

If your product was going to sell,

you'd have seen some results by now.

The turnover was doubled from £15,000...

That doesn't matter if you're turning over £160,000, if you're losing money at the end of it!

Turnover's vanity, profit's sanity,

cash is reality. I'm out.

Landscape gardener Michael Smith

created his product 20 years ago,

but it was his son, Joe, who spotted it could have mass-market potential.

Now, they just have to get a Dragon or two to agree.

-Hi, guys.

-My name's Joe Smith and this is my father Michael Smith.

We're here today to ask for £50,000, for 10% equity.

What we would like to do today, is to show you the Wheelbarrow Booster.

OK, this is about half a bag of material.

And that's about what you'll get in your standard barrow,

before you start losing it all over the place.

Now then, if I attach a booster to it,

like so, strap it over the front...

Make sure it's a uniform fit all the way round,

you notice how easy that went on.

So now you've got...

..300% worth of material in that.

You wouldn't believe that there's a million wheelbarrows

made and sold in the UK, purely to the UK every year.

There's a million horses in the UK as well

and every horse is a potential customer. Right now, we've sold

1,000 sample booster units.

We've got 7,000 that have been pre-ordered,

deposits have been paid for -

obviously we have evidence which we can back this up with.

-Thank you for your time.

-Thank you.

A no-nonsense pitch from father-and-son team

Michael and Joe Smith from Keighley.

For just 10% of their company,

they want a £50,000 investment

to take their rather nifty wheelbarrow extender

-into the mass market.

-Carry on.

Hilary Devey looks impressed.

-Hi, Joe.

-Hello.

-Hi, Michael.

-Hiya.

I think it's really simple, very innovative.

It saves a lot of time and energy, a lot of walking about.

Tell me about your own backgrounds.

My background is landscape gardening, which is how it came about.

I tried to think of a way of getting more in my barrow, you know,

in one go, to save me traipsing. I came up with this

and it's only, probably, just over 12 months ago

Joe asked me what became of it because he used to help me as a kid.

Um, and I said, "It's still about."

And he said, "Well, I think we can do something with it now."

You know, we got up and running and here we are basically.

What about you, Joe?

I work in accountancy recruitment

and I've done that for about nine years, ever since I left university.

And your plans are to take this to a mass market?

-We would like to.

-UK, Europe and the States?

We're getting interest from all over the world. E-mails daily.

How are you generating that interest currently?

Er, well...

Well, I don't know.

I mean, well...daft as I...

I push it as much as I can.

Say I feel that we're not getting enough interest, I'll spend time

as I can trying to grow awareness on anything - social media sites...

Horse & Hound have done a little piece for us,

The English Garden magazine did a piece on us,

the Garden News, a national newspaper,

they did a big two-page spread.

Basically we spend a lot of time just writing out to everyone we could.

A self-assured start for the duo.

Will Theo Paphitis share his rival's obvious interest?

Guys, you've got a product which... I don't know why anyone hasn't thought of it before.

-It's ingenious.

-Yeah.

The 7,000 you had deposits in,

is it from consumers, or from retailers, or...

Deposit from three of the largest equestrian wholesalers

in the country,

there are shopping channels - including QVC -

and there is an international company within the USA.

A lot of these orders have come in in the last two or three months.

It's taken us by surprise at how it's mushroomed.

I'd like to feel that with a Dragon on board, instead of

going to a wholesaler we'd be able to knock down doors

direct to the retailer.

-DEBORAH:

-Um, can I ask a question?

Can you tell me, which do you see as the biggest market?

Is it landscaping, or is it equestrian?

Both.

I see the biggest market being garden centres et cetera.

And we do have a company that's actually offered

a licensing agreement.

They've been in the gardening business 20 years.

They've shown it to the largest German garden centre retailer

who has got 350 stores.

They've also had an agreement through an English retailer

who's got 147 stores.

And if you talk about royalties,

usually they give you an idea of how many they're going to sell.

So how many did you...

They said 100,000 within a year they believed they could sell.

-THEO:

-Was there a minimum guarantee?

-Minimum guarantee of 30,000.

They wanted to take full control and offer us between, like,

30 and 50p per unit, which right now we've turned down.

We said, "Go away and sharpen your pencil."

Multiple market potential and interest from overseas -

impressive stuff from the father and son.

Now, Duncan Bannatyne wants to investigate the numbers.

-Joe, you've sold 8,000 of these.

-Yes.

And so what's the revenue from that 8,000?

The revenue from the total 8,000 is £47,000.

Right. Um, so, what's your projected profit in the next year?

Er, the business plan with a Dragon on board,

the projected profit is £125,000.

And we feel by year three, that we'll be turning over around £990,000

and we feel that there'd be around £375,000 profit in that.

OK.

I'm going to make you an offer.

But my concern is whether or not

you can sell enough of these products

to make enough profit to get your company worth £500,000.

So I'm going to make you an offer of £50,000...

..but I want 50% of the company.

Yeah, it's a non-starter. We don't want to give away more than 10%.

-Are you stuck at 10%?

-Yeah.

-So, you wouldn't take £50,000 for 11%?

Would you give us 60 grand for 9%?

DRAGONS CHUCKLE

Would you take £50,000 for 11%?

-Go on, then.

-So you're not stuck at 10%?

-Well, but you won't get to 11½.

Calamity in the Den.

Michael's forthright rejection

causes indignation amongst the Dragon investors.

And Deborah Meaden is not one to let him off the hook.

OK, Duncan, can I just thank you, because I was sitting here

thinking, "This is a really nice product and is it worth a punt?"

But saying that you wouldn't go from 11% to 11½%

having laid all your cards on the table,

saying what a Dragon can bring to you,

the difference it can make to the business,

I can imagine what would happen if we were working together

and you didn't want to do something that I thought was going to make the difference to the business.

-That's...

-You'd be saying, "Absolutely not! That's what I said

"this morning I was going to do and I'm not going to move one inch."

You having a good idea is totally different

from me moving off 10%, isn't it?

Do you want an investor?

Well, yeah, like I said. We need... I don't want to give 50...

OK, can I just say?

When you've had a good offer for 50%,

-you could well have negotiated on that.

-For 50 grand?!

But I've got to tell you, you didn't look serious to me.

-In what way?

-You didn't look like you were in here to do a deal.

Well, I wouldn't have signed anything here and now, would I?

-There'd be thinking time involved.

-Michael, I can't help you any more.

I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

Guys, you are valuing the business at half a million quid

and the company that wanted exclusivity

basically offered you ten grand.

So Duncan's offer actually isn't that ridiculous

when you look at it.

In fact it could be argued that it's incredibly generous.

We've both said 10% is what we're going to do.

It's business at the end of the day - and we would discuss it,

but then again you do have kneejerk reactions and, Duncan,

thank you for your offer as well, by the way.

Michael, let me help you.

You are NOT a willing partner here. Your body language,

everything that says it, you're not a willing partner.

-Well, I accept that. Yes.

-OK?

And on that basis, there is no deal for me.

I'm out.

Ostracised by Michael's unwillingness to negotiate,

two Dragons refuse to do business with the duo.

But has Peter Jones got something on his mind?

-Joe?

-Yes.

Is your goal to become wealthy,

or is your goal to see your dad's legacy sell a lot of product?

-The goal's to make money.

-Right.

-If your father wasn't in the room...

-Yep.

..and somebody said to you, "I want 50% of this business..."

Yep.

"..on the guarantee that you will make half a million pounds,"

would you accept the deal?

Er, yeah, I would.

OK.

I think you got that offer a few minutes ago from Duncan.

Because he could generate income for that business

worth half a million quid, and you dismissed it out of hand.

And I think that would be the biggest lesson for your dad.

It's what you want, and the money that you gain from a business,

not how much of it you control or own.

Mm.

So I need to tell you that working with you guys, to me

as an investor, doesn't work.

So I'm out.

-But I hope what I've said...

-MICHAEL:

-It'll be taken on board,

-yeah. Yeah, thank you.

-Be a lesson.

A lesson in the Den and another Dragon out.

Joe and his now sheepish father

see their chances of investment slipping away.

And Hilary Devey is ready to have her say, too.

Can I be honest with you? Can I be really blunt?

I think you've got a fantastic opportunity stood here,

and I think you're saying

all the wrong things that we do not want to hear.

I understand what you're saying

but he's a little bit more level-headed than I am.

-That's top and bottom of it.

-You're a typical Yorkshireman.

-I'm not going to apologise.

-You are very much

a typical Yorkshireman, I work with them every day.

-It's worn off him a lot.

-Why don't you, for your son's sake, try and be a businessman.

Right, OK, OK.

It's for him essentially, cos he's going to own the company one day.

Well, if he's going to inherit this business, I don't think you should be in a position to stand there

and say you're not going to negotiate.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

It's a real shame, because I really like your product.

I actually quite like you, Michael, cos I think I could handle you.

Good.

I mean, the 50 grand isn't in any danger, to be honest with you.

It's... You know, you're never not going to get it back with interest.

It's if you think it's good enough. I think this is going to make money.

I certainly wouldn't be interested in 10%.

Would you be interested in splitting it?

It all depends on the percentages.

50%.

OK.

So we both take 25% each.

-JOE:

-Can we go away and have a minute?

It's a very rare occurrence for entrepreneurs to get a second chance

in the Den, but that's what Michael and Joe now have.

-JOE:

-I don't know. I don't know...

-MICHAEL: I think so...

Um, we want to know the projection of what's going to come back

for the 50%. If it was on about half a million pounds,

if that sort of money's being bandied around, I'd sooner he had it.

I can't project what we're going to make.

But on the basis of £50,000 I will give it a go.

But it's entirely up to you whether you want to accept.

OK.

Er, we had an upper limit of what we'd go to and how hard we'd worked.

And to say we're wasting your time but we wouldn't get to 20.

I've got to say... I've got to say I'm out.

Um, I've got to say I'm out.

Thank you for your time today. We'll just have to say how we go.

We'll stand and fall on our own two feet for that. But thank you.

-PETER:

-Thank you, Joe. Thanks, Michael.

A sorry end to some protracted negotiations.

Sometimes in business deals just aren't meant to be.

Michael and Joe leave with nothing.

It's not that often in the Den

we see an offer from the Dragons turned down.

When we do you have to ask,

is it A - because the entrepreneurs know exactly what they're doing,

or B - because they're misguided?

Well, in Michael and Joe's case today,

it has to be one or the other.

I'll leave you to decide which it is.

Do you think you have what it takes to pitch to the Dragons?

For information on how to apply, visit our website:

bbc.co.uk/dragonsden

Goodbye.

Next week in the Den.

I'm amazed how well you can present an absolutely ridiculous idea.

But you can't! Cos if you could, you'd be making them day and night

and smoking a cigar on a Caribbean beach.

I'm asking you to compare a green apple with a green apple.

Not an apple with a banana. Not an orange with a grape.

I have no idea what you're talking about, Duncan.

-THEO:

-Not bad.

-I can't say any more.

I am out.

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