Episode 4 Dragons' Den


Episode 4

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These are the Dragons,

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five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.

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Over the coming weeks, they'll make or break the dreams

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of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

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You are not a willing partner here.

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Actually, if I'm honest with you, it's a bit boring.

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I don't think you should be in a position to stand there and say

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you're not going to negotiate.

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For every one idea such as this,

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there are probably several thousand that just don't even make it.

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The multi-millionaire investors

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have each built up their fortunes from scratch.

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Retail magnate Theo Paphitis.

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Hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.

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Leisure industry expert Deborah Meaden.

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Queen of logistics Hilary Devey.

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And telecoms giant Peter Jones.

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The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment

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and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.

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Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs

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walk away with their money?

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Welcome to the Dragons' Den.

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Once again, cash-hungry entrepreneurs are preparing to face

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the five fearsome Dragons, all hoping to convince them

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that their business ideas are worth millions.

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They'll face tough questioning,

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but if our multi-millionaires see a money-making opportunity,

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any of the entrepreneurs could walk away with a much needed investment

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and a deal that could change their lives.

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First into the Den is former chat show host Chrystal Rose.

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She hopes to secure the Dragons' backing for her latest venture.

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Hi. My name is Chrystal Rose.

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I'm here in the Den to ask for an investment of £80,000

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so that I may produce a television game show pilot

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for a 25% equity share.

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I am an avid Scrabble player

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and member of the Middlesex Scrabble League

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and I've invented three new card games all with an emphasis on words.

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I've already licensed one of my games to a toy company in America.

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The other two I've amalgamated into a television game show format

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and I'm hoping that you Dragons will help me

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to show off the first round of Lost For Words!

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-Can you please come and...

-Oh, I can't say no. Come on, guys.

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Will you help me play the game? Thank you so much.

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# Lost for words, lost for words. #

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Thank you. Just in the order that you usually play. Can you see?

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A big one just for you, Peter. Look at how I thought about you.

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Thank you.

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The whole aim of round one is to get control of the game.

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I'm going to give you a definition and you have to tell me what word I'm defining.

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The first Dragon to buzz in takes control of the game.

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So, the definition is, "a priceless gem, usually colourless".

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BUZZER Peter!

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-You're first.

-Diamond.

-Yeah!

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Diamonds is the correct answer. Now you have to nominate

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one of the Dragons you would like to get rid of to spell a ten-letter word.

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-But the thing is, you have to spell the word backwards.

-Oh, that's easy.

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-Theo.

-Theo!

-I'm dyslexic.

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-This is useless for me!

-It's all just fun.

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It's all for fun. OK. Well, let's all help.

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The definition is "air", the word, "atmosphere". Go.

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CAR HORN

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I buzzed in.

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-You do it then, please.

-Oxygen.

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No, no, no.

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You've got to spell "atmosphere" backwards.

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-You've got to get the word right first, haven't you?

-E, R, E, H...

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P, S...

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O?

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-M?

-T.

-A. Ah!

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Brilliant. Thank you so much for being good sports.

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A rare moment in the Den, as for once,

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it's the entrepreneur quizzing the Dragons.

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South London Scrabble champion Chrystal Rose

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believes she's devised the next big television game show

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and she needs £80,000 to produce a pilot episode.

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Theo Paphitis looks intrigued by the vivacious businesswoman.

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Now, what I want to know, can you tell us who Chrystal is?

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Chrystal Rose was the first woman in this country

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-to host an eponymous talk show.

-A what?

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A talk show that's named after the person that's hosting it.

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Eponymous. I love words. You're going to find out that I love words.

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So before Vanessa, before Trisha, it was The Chrystal Rose show.

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I see that you were a fan(!)

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-So you did this show for how long?

-I did it for four years.

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That came about as a result of me seeing The Oprah Winfrey Show,

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deciding that's what I wanted to do, to be a television presenter,

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even though I had no previous presentation or production skills.

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So, I got a team of 40 people together

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and then I produced my own pilot.

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So, if I gave you 80,000 quid, tell me, what would I get back?

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Oh, my goodness.

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The profits will be about £600,000 and that's just sales in the UK.

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I want to write this down because I'm interested in big numbers.

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-Words? Numbers. So, £600,000 profit.

-That's just the game show.

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We've got the board games which I've already done.

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There are lots of prototypes of that. We licensed that.

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We've got so many different streams, the apps, the... You know.

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Let's make some money, honey!

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Confidence from Chrystal,

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but it's a curious business proposition for the Dragons,

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and Duncan Bannatyne seems perplexed.

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-What do the contestants get out of it?

-Money.

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-Up to £250,000 they can win.

-What's your budget per ep?

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Not more than £20,000, because...

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If your budget per ep is 20K, that means each ep,

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the average win is less than 20K, cos that comes out of the budget.

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No, because also, you bring on a sponsor to cover anything over that.

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I mean, the industry are telling me "There's nothing like your game",

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so you got elements there that haven't been seen on TV before,

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which is a really good thing. In fact, I've already sent it to a producer who's interested.

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He used to run Action Time.

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They made all of the game shows on television, from Catchphrase,

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any game show that you can think of.

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Chrystal, to think of a topic

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and mention a word related to it and then spell something backwards,

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you think that that hasn't been invented before?

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I played this with family and friends and when they said,

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"Oh, this is great", I didn't really take their word for it.

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I made sure that I went and had meetings

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with the people in the industry who have got the background,

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and they're the ones who've said, "You've got something good here."

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Erm... It doesn't wash with me.

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You've come up with somewhere where we can stand,

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a few knobs that we can press and some different colour lights...

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Apart from that, I don't see what you've got.

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Chrystal's nerve is put to the test

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as Peter Jones offers up a dose of reality.

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But the sanguine entrepreneur looks unruffled.

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Will she remain as composed under scrutiny from Deborah Meaden?

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This is a difficult one, because this is an area

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that you pretty well need specialist knowledge in.

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The only thing I can really concentrate on

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is your business background.

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Sure.

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I need you to tell me

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why you are in a position to turn this into a money-making investment.

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All I've done through my life is run businesses.

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I look young, right, but I'm not. It's good skin care.

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But I ran an events company myself,

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so I ran events inside and outside of London.

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I've run a clothes shop in the West End of London,

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I've run a nightclub in Streatham Hill.

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I've done lots of different businesses because I ploughed my own money into them.

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I've wanted to be at the helm.

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What's your biggest business success?

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Running an events company called Diamonds,

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which I did for seven years.

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What was the turnover of that business?

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Between £500,000 and £750,000 a year.

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And how much profit did that make?

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About £240,000.

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Impressive responses from Chrystal, and all five Dragons are still in.

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Will Theo Paphitis be the first to make up his mind?

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Chrystal.

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Why haven't you spoken to the production companies

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and just got somebody to put the £80,000 in

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and they can sell it for you?

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Do you know what?

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I might well be able to get £80,000 from somebody,

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but I wouldn't get one of you.

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OK.

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But if I was to say to you, "I'll give you £80,000...

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"..but I actually want equity of something between 25% and 50%",

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what would your initial reaction be?

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-I would explore it. Yeah.

-That's good.

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That's what I was hoping you'd say.

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The fact is, you're offering me

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exactly the same of what these production houses would ask for,

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and they know what they're doing.

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They've got the contacts. I haven't got the contacts.

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But it's not the route that I wanted to take.

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I wanted my own production company

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with hopefully one of the Dragons on board.

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Then what you should've done is pitched a production company.

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A business. Not a show.

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Right.

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-And you didn't pitch that, did you?

-Sure.

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It's not an investable proposition.

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I'm out.

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A devastating conclusion from Theo Paphitis,

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and Chrystal's confidence takes a hit.

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And Peter Jones looks to have made up his mind too.

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Chrystal, I think for every one idea such as this,

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there are probably several thousand that just don't even make it,

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and whilst I think that you are clearly gregarious,

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you've got great spirit, you've done a lot of things,

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there are so many people that actually have teams around them

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coming up with concepts every minute of every day

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and they still don't know whether it can work or whether it can't.

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-I'm going to tell you right now, I'm not.

-OK.

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I think there are far better game shows on television now

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with much more interaction.

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And I've got to agree,

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the right venue is a production company.

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I've got to say, I'm out.

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OK.

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Chrystal.

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I actually have listened to you describe the show

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and took part in it, and actually,

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if I'm honest with you, I think it's a bit boring.

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I don't think it's a great show. I don't think it's a great concept.

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So, that's why I'm not going to invest in it, so I'm out.

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OK.

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Four Dragons out and the experienced businesswoman now looks forlorn.

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Only Deborah Meaden can save her from complete failure in the Den.

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When looking for an investment,

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either I know something about that market,

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or the person who's pitching to me is able to explain that market,

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but actually, television is different.

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So it might be a great idea,

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but that's the problem. I don't know.

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Trust me.

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I think that you should have faith in everything that I've said,

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have faith in me and my background.

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Well, you know, entrepreneurs take risks,

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but they are calculated risks,

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and the issue is that I don't have enough to make my calculation on.

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-I'm out.

-Thank you.

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Thanks very much.

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-Pleasure meeting you. PETER:

-Good luck.

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A wealth of advice for Chrystal, but not so rich in cash.

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She leaves with nothing.

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In business, your Eureka moments can come at any time.

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The founder of computer game giant Atari once said,

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"Everyone who's taken a shower has an idea,

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"it's the person that does something about it who makes a difference."

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Tony Heath from Warrington did something about it.

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Frustrated by foreshortened showers,

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he, along with brother Sid, invented a solution that now needs a £50,000 investment.

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If you've ever been to a camping and caravan site,

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you may be familiar with the non-concussive type shower valve.

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These are the ones that you have to keep pressing otherwise the water stops.

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We would now like to show you a demonstration of the Showerfriend.

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Instead of repeatedly pressing the button as he was doing,

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he now just attaches the Showerfriend,

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and bingo, he now has both hands free to shower.

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Peter Jones proved the Dragons really do have experience

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in a wide range of situations.

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I think it's ingenious.

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-I've been in those sort of showers where you press the button.

-Really?

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It's actually a house that I bought.

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Take the system out and put a tap in!

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Instead of changing the bathroom I could just buy this for nine quid.

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A promising start perhaps, but Theo Paphitis had doubts over demand.

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I've used these things before in gyms.

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You're banging it, you get water on you, you rub your bits.

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It's never really been a problem.

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At leisure centres, camping and caravan sites,

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if they're not being maintained, they're down to three and four seconds.

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It's a major job to have a shower.

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Despite putting up a valiant defence of their idea, in the end,

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the brothers ran out of Dragon options.

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The buttons are introduced because they're water-saving.

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Not only would I not want it used on my site,

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I wouldn't want it to be sold on my site.

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If you've got a problem in a gym

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where these are coming out after a few seconds...

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leave it, and join a quality gym.

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I'm out.

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Age is no barrier to success in the Den.

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If the idea's good enough, the Dragons will back it.

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I expect that's what 22-year-old student Harrison Woods is hoping.

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He's next to descend the stairs.

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Hello, Dragons.

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My name is Harrison Woods, founder of Primal Parking,

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and I'm asking for £60,000 in exchange for 20% equity.

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Primal is a letting agency for privately owned parking spaces,

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operating around a functional online site and phone application.

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We allow individuals and businesses the opportunity to advertise

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their unused or under-utilised parking to gain additional revenue.

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To book a space, type in the postcode or event you wish to park around.

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Primal will then scour its database,

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generating the most appropriate results within a one-mile radius,

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and it's only once we then let out the space, do we take a fee

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of 15% plus VAT on gross monthly rentals.

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Further to this,

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we have additional revenue streams such as the Parking Guardian.

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It's an automatic parking barrier which fits into your space

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within 15 seconds, and then your space is protected from being taken.

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We hope when you think of parking, it's through Primal. I welcome any questions.

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A pitch bursting with enthusiasm from Bolton-based Harrison Woods.

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With a £60,000 investment,

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he planned to capitalise on the thousands of unused parking spaces across the UK.

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Deborah Meaden is first to tackle the excitable young entrepreneur.

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Thank you, Harrison.

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So, are you operating at the moment? Are you live?

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I'm not live. The online site isn't live.

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The barrier sales are,

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and it's helped me fund the initial investment

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-in the site and phone application.

-OK.

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-Who else does this?

-There's two companies.

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ParkatmyHouse, which has been operating since 2006,

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and there's one, ParkLet, which has been operating since 2004.

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So, you've got two big competitors who've been there

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a long time before you, so what's different

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between what you're offering and what they offer?

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What... At the moment it's a very...

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I think there's room for someone else to come in the market,

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especially with the fact that every day,

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knocking through doors, I go to a business,

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speak to what parking they need, and it's... The... It's crying out...

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Look, Harrison. You need to calm down a bit.

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What are they NOT doing that you can do?

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Their operations is lacking in some areas, which I believe I can...

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Specifically.

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They do not have a phone application which allows instant booking.

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-So the only point of difference at the moment...

-Yes.

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-is that they don't have a... But you don't have a phone app, do you?

-No.

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At the moment the app is developed

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and I've been given a date of two weeks until we launch

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and you can download it on your phone and...

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A nervy start for Harrison.

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How will the fledgling businessman cope

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under interrogation from Theo Paphitis?

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I'm Theo. Listen, you're an enthusiastic fella.

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You've come bounding in here.

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You've got an idea, but that's it.

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I've managed to...

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This, this... I've got 600 registered people

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who are willing to put the details,

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-and that's just from me, between university...

-Harrison.

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It's going to cost a lot of money to actually build the site and create the app.

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It's being finan... None of the...

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The investment would go... This has all been financed.

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-This has all been financed?

-I didn't...

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Er... Uh... Someone owns 20% of the company,

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who owns a web design company,

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who's putting their staff and assets into building this site.

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And they're going to build the app as well?

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-Yes.

-Excellent.

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Harrison. Talk to me about

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the people that you say are writing the app.

0:19:560:20:00

Jonathan, I met him through barrier sales

0:20:000:20:04

and I knocked on his door and got talking to him

0:20:040:20:07

and then he offered to fund and build the site.

0:20:070:20:10

-And how qualified is he?

-He's owned a web design company for the past 15 years.

0:20:100:20:15

He specialises in e-commerce sites, originally.

0:20:150:20:18

He's experienced through selling companies online. He's got great experience in it.

0:20:190:20:22

How old are you, Harrison?

0:20:240:20:25

-22.

-22.

0:20:250:20:29

The charming Harrison settles enough

0:20:290:20:32

to reveal some substance behind his business.

0:20:320:20:34

Now, Duncan Bannatyne wants to drill down into the detail.

0:20:340:20:38

Who's your typical customer,

0:20:400:20:42

who's going to rent out his car-parking space?

0:20:420:20:46

Anyone who doesn't utilise it.

0:20:460:20:48

My brother has a parking space laid dormant. His girlfriend has one...

0:20:480:20:52

-So, it's residential parking?

-Residential parking spaces.

0:20:520:20:55

You'd be surprised... All these apartments next to buildings,

0:20:550:20:58

there'll be dormant car parks under there which aren't used...

0:20:580:21:01

-But it's got to be limited?

-No.

0:21:010:21:04

I know the prices, know what I can achieve,

0:21:040:21:06

-I've got people signed up...

-The apartment block

0:21:060:21:08

-I have a company flat in, in Covent Garden, has got 50 apartments.

-Yep.

0:21:080:21:14

How many car-parking spaces would you expect to be in the basement?

0:21:140:21:17

If they've got 50 builds, I'd expect 20,

0:21:170:21:19

30 parking spaces in the building.

0:21:190:21:21

Three.

0:21:230:21:24

-Three.

-Yep.

0:21:240:21:27

This is just...not working for me.

0:21:290:21:32

I'm not seeing this as a business. I'm out.

0:21:320:21:35

Thank you.

0:21:350:21:37

A disappointing setback for the young entrepreneur

0:21:400:21:43

as he loses his first Dragon.

0:21:430:21:45

And Deborah Meaden is now ready to show her hand.

0:21:450:21:48

There are three reasons this business would work.

0:21:510:21:54

First-mover advantage -

0:21:540:21:57

you haven't got that.

0:21:570:21:58

You've got something that the others can't do -

0:21:580:22:02

you couldn't convince me what that was.

0:22:020:22:04

Thirdly,

0:22:060:22:08

you have come up with something completely new...

0:22:080:22:10

..you haven't done that.

0:22:130:22:15

I won't be investing, Harrison,

0:22:150:22:17

-and I'm out.

-Thank you.

0:22:170:22:19

I think it's a shame that you didn't bring your programmers with you,

0:22:250:22:29

because, to me,

0:22:290:22:31

it's all supposition - y'know,

0:22:310:22:34

it's IF the website gets up and running,

0:22:340:22:36

-IF there are...

-I have letters

0:22:360:22:39

from companies I've spoken to who are going to adopt the system...

0:22:390:22:42

But that's not sufficient

0:22:420:22:45

for anybody to invest in you.

0:22:450:22:47

I think you're far too precipitous being here today.

0:22:480:22:51

I'm out.

0:22:530:22:55

The early infectious enthusiasm withers away

0:22:570:23:00

and just two Dragons remain.

0:23:000:23:02

Will Peter Jones see something in Harrison that his rivals have not?

0:23:020:23:07

Harrison.

0:23:100:23:11

I have to say, I do quite like the concept.

0:23:110:23:15

The sad thing is that it's not there. Yet.

0:23:150:23:18

-So, putting this to one side...

-Yeah.

0:23:210:23:22

..can I ask a little bit about your background,

0:23:220:23:24

what have you done up until this point?

0:23:240:23:27

I'm at university, studying geography at Manchester.

0:23:270:23:31

I was at Liverpool University, two years ago

0:23:310:23:35

and then I did a ski season, had an accident,

0:23:350:23:37

quite a bad leg injury, it put me out for a while.

0:23:370:23:40

I started importing these products.

0:23:420:23:44

I've got a lot of ideas bubbling in me

0:23:440:23:47

and things which I've pushed and driven...

0:23:470:23:49

-What did they cost to buy?

-£50.85.

0:23:490:23:52

OK, what have you sold them for?

0:23:520:23:56

£250 a unit.

0:23:560:23:57

And I've sold 67 units, selling it direct through myself,

0:23:580:24:02

-knocking on doors!

-Wow!

0:24:020:24:05

-You made £12,000 just selling those?

-Just selling them.

0:24:050:24:09

Harrison, I do feel that at some stage if you carry on that tenacity,

0:24:090:24:14

you will achieve.

0:24:140:24:16

So, if I give you £60,000,

0:24:170:24:20

what am I going to get back?

0:24:200:24:22

Net turnover in the first year is £120,000.

0:24:220:24:25

-The first year, it's a loss of £68,000.

-Right.

0:24:250:24:30

Second year, its turnover is £430,000.

0:24:300:24:33

Profit of £170,000.

0:24:330:24:35

-Right.

-And final year is £1.75 million.

0:24:350:24:38

Profit of £790,000.

0:24:380:24:41

Of your competitors, have any of them

0:24:440:24:47

-made anything like these profits?

-All I know is that

0:24:470:24:51

reportedly ParkatmyHouse, they had investment late last year

0:24:510:24:56

and they've made over £10 million, for space users within the UK alone.

0:24:560:25:00

Harrison.

0:25:040:25:06

There is something about you.

0:25:060:25:08

My head says...

0:25:080:25:10

he's going to be really high maintenance and difficult to manage.

0:25:100:25:13

My gut says...

0:25:130:25:15

at 22...

0:25:150:25:17

did you have the cojones...

0:25:170:25:19

to pitch in front of five Dragons?

0:25:190:25:22

I think I would have struggled.

0:25:220:25:24

I'm going to make you an offer.

0:25:270:25:29

The reason why I'm doing it is...

0:25:290:25:34

I want to be there...

0:25:340:25:36

..when you make it.

0:25:390:25:41

But, you are a pure...

0:25:420:25:46

out and out punt.

0:25:460:25:50

So, I'm going to offer you half of the money,

0:25:520:25:55

for 20%.

0:25:550:25:57

Thank you, Theo.

0:25:590:26:01

In a dramatic turnaround, Theo Paphitis

0:26:060:26:08

offers an unlikely lifeline.

0:26:080:26:10

But strict Den rules state

0:26:100:26:12

Harrison must receive the full amount he's asking for

0:26:120:26:15

or he walks away with nothing.

0:26:150:26:17

His only hope now lies with Peter Jones.

0:26:170:26:22

-How are you feeling Harrison?

-Pretty...pretty, ah, nervous.

0:26:260:26:30

What you've pitched, anybody could do that.

0:26:400:26:43

But then again, you did it.

0:26:460:26:48

What would you like to happen, Harrison?

0:26:530:26:56

I think, the dream would be for both yourself and Theo

0:26:560:27:01

to be involved in this with me.

0:27:010:27:05

Since Theo's given that offer, I haven't touched my pen.

0:27:070:27:10

But...

0:27:100:27:11

..I wrote down...

0:27:130:27:14

..£60,000, the full amount of money,

0:27:160:27:19

for 40% of your business.

0:27:190:27:21

Which was the offer that I was going to make to you,

0:27:230:27:26

and it's the offer that I will make to you,

0:27:260:27:28

and I'd be more than happy to split that offer with Theo.

0:27:280:27:34

I'd like to accept both yourself and Theo's offer.

0:27:420:27:45

You don't want to think about that? Don't want to negotiate?

0:27:450:27:48

I don't want to, I don't want to!

0:27:480:27:51

-Brilliant!

-Thank you for your time,

0:27:510:27:54

-I appreciate it.

-Well done!

-Thanks.

0:27:540:27:56

-I appreciate it.

-Harrison has done it.

0:27:560:27:59

Two Dragons came at twice the price, but he really doesn't seem concerned about that.

0:27:590:28:05

At the moment, my feelings are... I cannot explain it.

0:28:110:28:14

I'm taken back, I honestly am just taken back.

0:28:140:28:17

I'll tell my mum and dad first, I'm pretty sure.

0:28:170:28:21

I'll wait till I'm in front of them, so they don't fall over in shock!

0:28:210:28:24

Many businesses' pitch to the Dragons

0:28:300:28:33

centre around life's big events -

0:28:330:28:35

ideas inspired by birth and marriage are always popular.

0:28:350:28:38

But Barbara Chalmers from Glasgow's business

0:28:380:28:41

was based on another stage of the life cycle.

0:28:410:28:45

A samba band, personalised cardboard coffin,

0:28:450:28:48

that's what I'd like for my funeral.

0:28:480:28:50

Final Fling is a niche website.

0:28:510:28:53

You can go online, you can make a will, you can record your wishes

0:28:530:28:57

and families can access it when they need to.

0:28:570:29:00

SHE PLAYS DRUMS

0:29:000:29:02

The concept of Barbara's funeral-planning website

0:29:020:29:06

certainly grabbed the attention of the Dragons.

0:29:060:29:08

I've always got a great belief that your business

0:29:080:29:11

should say what it does on the tin.

0:29:110:29:13

So, why Final Fling?

0:29:130:29:16

I did quite a lot of research before I set out on this

0:29:160:29:19

and there was a real celebration actually around that title,

0:29:190:29:23

because for people it's like "Yeah, we are all going to die, so let's embrace that."

0:29:230:29:27

But confusion reigned

0:29:270:29:29

once the Dragons got into the detail of the business.

0:29:290:29:33

How much do you hope to turn over, then, in your first year?

0:29:330:29:37

-£600,000.

-How much is profit?

0:29:370:29:39

-75%.

-Wow!

0:29:390:29:41

Then you take off your VAT.

0:29:410:29:43

Then you won't be making 75% of that as profit, will you?

0:29:430:29:46

Well, 75% of our gross profit,

0:29:460:29:49

like 25% of our costs

0:29:490:29:51

would have to come off, the rest of it is profit.

0:29:510:29:54

Barbara, Barbara! Just a minute!

0:29:540:29:56

You've lost me!

0:29:560:29:58

Finally, it was the subject matter itself

0:29:580:30:01

that marked the finale of Barbara's Den fling.

0:30:010:30:04

Quite frankly, while I'm alive, I want to be alive,

0:30:040:30:06

I don't want to be spending my life contemplating death. However...

0:30:060:30:10

if I did want to talk about it, I would talk to my family about it.

0:30:100:30:15

It's not going to work.

0:30:150:30:16

-We'll see about that.

-I'm out.

0:30:160:30:19

So far tonight, only one entrepreneur

0:30:190:30:22

-has received the backing of the multi-millionaire investors.

-Well done.

0:30:220:30:26

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

0:30:260:30:28

Will any of these intrepid businessmen and women

0:30:280:30:30

manage to part the Dragons from their hard-earned cash?

0:30:300:30:34

The Dragons know the majority of new businesses fail,

0:30:370:30:41

so they need big returns from the ones that succeed

0:30:410:30:44

to cover the losses on the ones that don't.

0:30:440:30:46

Will our next entrepreneur convince them

0:30:460:30:48

that her business is a risk worth taking?

0:30:480:30:51

Hello, my name is Caroline Brown.

0:31:170:31:19

I've come today please to ask for £80,000 of your money,

0:31:190:31:24

for 30% of my company.

0:31:240:31:27

The Huntingford Company is passionate about thinking up devices

0:31:270:31:32

for people as they get older,

0:31:320:31:34

and I'd like to position myself to be the essential friend

0:31:340:31:38

for the over-60s.

0:31:380:31:40

When I was nursing, when I was a bit of an old bag... I had to retrain as a nurse,

0:31:410:31:45

and I did it in a district which was brilliant, I really enjoyed myself.

0:31:450:31:48

But I came across two huge problems that cropped up frequently.

0:31:480:31:52

This is the StickStay.

0:31:520:31:55

If you have anything to do with sticks

0:31:550:31:59

you have one mission in life and that is to hit the deck, and it's a real nuisance.

0:31:590:32:02

So, they can be positioned anywhere.

0:32:040:32:07

My ambition is to have one next to every single loo in the country.

0:32:070:32:10

The other thing was, older people that find it difficult bending down

0:32:100:32:14

to pick up their pet bowls from the floor,

0:32:140:32:17

and all the rest of it, so this is the most amazing thing, simple.

0:32:170:32:21

eeZee Feeder. Just like that,

0:32:210:32:24

they click on and off, very easily.

0:32:240:32:26

Problem solved, no bending.

0:32:260:32:29

Thank you for your time, thank you.

0:32:290:32:31

A jaunty pitch from entrepreneur Caroline Brown from Dorset.

0:32:350:32:39

With the UK's ageing population in mind,

0:32:390:32:42

she's created simple solutions to backbreaking problems

0:32:420:32:46

and needs £80,000 to take her inventions to market.

0:32:460:32:50

But Peter Jones looks perplexed.

0:32:500:32:52

I don't have much experience in this,

0:32:550:32:57

so, there are times in the Den where you've got to draw on expertise

0:32:570:33:00

of certain Dragons - you know,

0:33:000:33:04

from Theo's retail experience, logistics with Hilary,

0:33:040:33:06

marketing, Deborah, but this type of product for the old age individual,

0:33:060:33:10

I'm going to have to sit quietly and listen to see what Duncan thinks.

0:33:100:33:13

Yes, yes, I know Duncan's background.

0:33:130:33:16

What he's referring to is my age.

0:33:160:33:19

-No, no, care home experience.

-Yes, yes!

0:33:190:33:22

THEY LAUGH

0:33:220:33:24

Ooh, touchy!

0:33:240:33:26

I actually think that's quite a neat little product.

0:33:260:33:30

-Yes.

-If you've got cats. It is. If you don't mind me saying though,

0:33:300:33:33

I find this other thing ridiculous.

0:33:330:33:36

-Right.

-It isn't, Peter.

0:33:360:33:38

-Is it not?

-No.

-I'm really missing it.

0:33:380:33:41

My mum, God bless her soul,

0:33:410:33:43

-would have loved that.

-Really?

-Yeah.

0:33:430:33:45

-Mmm.

-Wow.

0:33:450:33:48

What normally happens...?

0:33:480:33:49

Well, what normally happens - I mean I don't know, but it won't do it now

0:33:490:33:54

because of Whatnot's Law - but if you leave a stick

0:33:540:33:57

leaning up against something, it will fall.

0:33:570:34:01

Far easier just to click your stick in

0:34:010:34:03

than to have to hoick it up from the floor again.

0:34:030:34:07

For once, it's a Dragon who's taught a lesson in the Den,

0:34:090:34:13

as the confident entrepreneur brings Peter Jones up to speed.

0:34:130:34:16

But how will Caroline fare under the scrutiny of Deborah Meaden?

0:34:160:34:21

So, is there anything to your knowledge

0:34:210:34:25

that exists, for instance, like that pet bowl?

0:34:250:34:28

No, there are other things for pets on, like, a step,

0:34:280:34:34

but that's from the pet's point of view. It doesn't have to bend down.

0:34:340:34:37

-It doesn't help the owner.

-I've got one with a handle already.

0:34:370:34:41

Yes, I know the one you mean, but again, it's not a very long handle.

0:34:410:34:45

-No. It's not as long as that, but it's quite a long handle.

-Yes,

0:34:450:34:50

but again, you'd have to bend down.

0:34:500:34:53

-So, have you got any interest?

-The interest that I've received,

0:34:530:34:57

apart from everybody surrounding - but you can't count family and friends

0:34:570:35:01

because they're probably a bit biased...

0:35:010:35:03

but Pets at Home,

0:35:030:35:05

I've just entered an innovation contest

0:35:050:35:09

for new pet products, which is nice, and the Royal College of Nursing

0:35:090:35:12

is taking a huge interest in the StickStay.

0:35:120:35:15

A fledgling company perhaps,

0:35:180:35:20

but Caroline's products seem to be creating quite a stir.

0:35:200:35:23

Now, Duncan Bannatyne

0:35:230:35:26

wants to drill down into the numbers.

0:35:260:35:29

What do they cost you to make?

0:35:290:35:32

-The StickStay costs about 50p, 60p.

-What does it sell for?

0:35:320:35:37

Individually, I think I'd sell them for about £3,

0:35:370:35:40

say to councils, for loos and things, that's what I've done.

0:35:400:35:43

I would probably make...

0:35:430:35:47

-about £1.50.

-OK.

0:35:470:35:51

There's a huge market out there,

0:35:510:35:53

there's about, 12 million-ish

0:35:530:35:56

of us that are now pensionable age.

0:35:560:35:59

Caroline, I think that's ingenious.

0:36:010:36:04

Simple, but does what it says on the tin, so, brilliant.

0:36:040:36:07

The pet food bowl...

0:36:070:36:10

-there's millions and trillions of them.

-But nobody WANTS to bend down.

0:36:100:36:14

A lot of people say you don't have to have any disability to want these.

0:36:140:36:17

We all have remote controls at home -

0:36:170:36:19

we can fiddle with the television, but we feel we don't want to.

0:36:190:36:23

But, I'm not even sure, having that pole, especially for a bigger dog,

0:36:230:36:28

is going to be any good, because once that bigger dog

0:36:280:36:31

moves around with his tail, he's likely to knock that over.

0:36:310:36:36

Yes, yes. It has non-slip...

0:36:360:36:37

It's not the slipping, it's the tipping, it's the tipping.

0:36:370:36:42

-I have big dogs...

-Yes.

-..and they are clumsy.

0:36:420:36:47

I'm not going to say don't do it, I think that's brilliant.

0:36:470:36:50

Keep following your dreams on that one, but I shan't be investing, so I'm afraid I'm out.

0:36:500:36:54

Thank you for your time anyway.

0:36:540:36:56

A blow for Caroline, as she loses her first Dragon.

0:36:580:37:02

But there are still four multi-millionaire investors left

0:37:020:37:06

and Peter Jones looks ready to show his hand.

0:37:060:37:09

It's a nice product

0:37:110:37:12

that has a use, you've proved it.

0:37:120:37:15

But I can't see how you could make a business

0:37:150:37:18

out of those two items. I don't think for £80,000 I'd ever see any money back.

0:37:180:37:22

-And if I can't see it, I can't invest.

-No, quite right.

-I'm going to say politely, I'm out.

0:37:220:37:26

Thank you anyway, thank you for your time.

0:37:260:37:29

If I were you, I'd concentrate on that and spend your time... That's your background,

0:37:290:37:34

that's where your contacts are. I'd concentrate on that,

0:37:340:37:37

get that sold into the NHS, care homes, whatever.

0:37:370:37:41

Because I think that is neat, it's just you've got to sell too many

0:37:410:37:45

at such a low unit cost to give an investor a return,

0:37:450:37:49

so I'm afraid I won't be investing, I'm out.

0:37:490:37:51

Right.

0:37:510:37:53

I know quite a lot of old people

0:37:550:37:57

and I know from my mother's disability.

0:37:570:38:00

She waited and waited and waited and waited...

0:38:000:38:02

in fact she HATED to be seen with a stick.

0:38:020:38:04

Oh yes, I can sympathise with that.

0:38:040:38:06

She would hide it,

0:38:060:38:09

rather than let people know she needed a stick.

0:38:090:38:13

I applaud the thought and the care that you've put into these products,

0:38:130:38:18

but for me, it's not a commercial investment.

0:38:180:38:21

-No.

-So, unfortunately, I'm out.

0:38:210:38:24

Three Dragons out in quick succession,

0:38:260:38:29

and the well-mannered entrepreneur's hopes of investment

0:38:290:38:32

now rest solely with Duncan Bannatyne.

0:38:320:38:36

I can see a need for it, but this is a very, very,

0:38:360:38:39

-very limited market.

-Limited?

-Yeah.

0:38:390:38:43

I did invest once in a company that sold this type of product,

0:38:430:38:46

these type of aids, and it is a very, very difficult market.

0:38:460:38:51

So, I can't see how they can possibly

0:38:510:38:55

sell fast enough to make enough money

0:38:550:38:57

to give an investor a return.

0:38:570:39:00

So for that reason, and that reason only, I'm going to have to say

0:39:000:39:03

I'm out.

0:39:030:39:05

Right. Thank you for your time.

0:39:050:39:07

Thank you.

0:39:070:39:09

It was an unusually courteous pitch, but the cruel reality is

0:39:110:39:16

that Caroline leaves the Den with nothing.

0:39:160:39:18

Others who tried and failed in the Den included Rebecca Jane from Manchester,

0:39:270:39:30

who having set up many companies of her own,

0:39:300:39:33

including a detective agency,

0:39:330:39:34

now wanted to help raise the press profile of other small businesses.

0:39:340:39:39

We're not your average public relations company.

0:39:390:39:42

Journalists get in contact with us, they tell us

0:39:420:39:44

what they want to put it in their newspapers and magazines.

0:39:440:39:47

We then send out these requests to our subscribers.

0:39:470:39:51

If these people were to have paid for advertising in the national press,

0:39:510:39:54

they would have paid over £50,000.

0:39:540:39:56

What we do is we charge them £15 per month.

0:39:560:39:59

Duncan Bannatyne was first to interrogate the confident 27-year-old.

0:40:010:40:05

So, the newspaper comes to you

0:40:050:40:08

with a request, and you send it to your clients?

0:40:080:40:10

-Yes.

-And that's all you do?

-Yes.

0:40:100:40:13

We're there to send out the request,

0:40:130:40:15

they're there to get themselves in the papers.

0:40:150:40:17

That's not PR.

0:40:170:40:18

No, that's what I say, it's PR with a difference.

0:40:180:40:20

But in the end, Rebecca's new PR model

0:40:200:40:24

failed to grab the attention or the cash of these Dragons.

0:40:240:40:28

Small business, I totally agree with you, it wants to raise its profile,

0:40:280:40:33

but when they engage a PR company,

0:40:330:40:35

they want focus, what they don't want is a scattergun approach.

0:40:350:40:38

Peter is absolutely right.

0:40:380:40:40

As a customer, if I said to you, "How many people do you look after?"

0:40:400:40:44

and you said, "300", I would think, "That's not good, is it?"

0:40:440:40:47

PR is relationship-driven

0:40:470:40:49

and the business that you're pitching is not relationship-driven.

0:40:490:40:54

It doesn't work.

0:40:540:40:56

So, I'm out.

0:40:560:40:58

Simon Zhao from China and business partner James Whybrow

0:40:580:41:01

were next into the Den

0:41:010:41:03

with an eye-catching pitch for their ornate tea company.

0:41:030:41:06

SOULFUL MOOD MUSIC

0:41:070:41:09

Flora Tea is not just tea,

0:41:100:41:12

it's naturally-flavoured herbal flowers

0:41:120:41:15

forming an artistic floral display. Flora Tea - as easy as ABC.

0:41:150:41:20

Top marks for presentation,

0:41:210:41:23

but it's the proposition that prevails in the Den.

0:41:230:41:25

It looks wonderful, but what's been the return to date?

0:41:250:41:29

Year one, a loss of £5,000,

0:41:290:41:33

year two, £15,000

0:41:330:41:35

and this year, lost £18,000.

0:41:350:41:37

It wasn't the losses alone that concerned Duncan Bannatyne.

0:41:390:41:42

What makes this different from any other tea you can buy?

0:41:420:41:45

It's a new way of presenting tea. The people we speak to give us very good feedback.

0:41:450:41:49

James, James, you stick the bag in,

0:41:490:41:52

and you make the tea and you drink the tea.

0:41:520:41:54

How you presented the tea to the teapot doesn't really matter, does it?

0:41:540:41:58

In the end, their pitch certainly engaged the senses,

0:41:580:42:02

but sadly for the duo, not the one marked business.

0:42:020:42:05

If your product was going to sell,

0:42:050:42:08

you'd have seen some results by now.

0:42:080:42:10

The turnover was doubled from £15,000...

0:42:100:42:14

That doesn't matter if you're turning over £160,000, if you're losing money at the end of it!

0:42:140:42:19

Turnover's vanity, profit's sanity,

0:42:190:42:22

cash is reality. I'm out.

0:42:220:42:25

Landscape gardener Michael Smith

0:42:280:42:30

created his product 20 years ago,

0:42:300:42:32

but it was his son, Joe, who spotted it could have mass-market potential.

0:42:320:42:37

Now, they just have to get a Dragon or two to agree.

0:42:370:42:40

-Hi, guys.

-My name's Joe Smith and this is my father Michael Smith.

0:43:020:43:08

We're here today to ask for £50,000, for 10% equity.

0:43:080:43:11

What we would like to do today, is to show you the Wheelbarrow Booster.

0:43:110:43:15

OK, this is about half a bag of material.

0:43:150:43:20

And that's about what you'll get in your standard barrow,

0:43:240:43:27

before you start losing it all over the place.

0:43:270:43:30

Now then, if I attach a booster to it,

0:43:300:43:33

like so, strap it over the front...

0:43:330:43:38

Make sure it's a uniform fit all the way round,

0:43:380:43:40

you notice how easy that went on.

0:43:400:43:42

So now you've got...

0:43:420:43:45

..300% worth of material in that.

0:43:500:43:52

You wouldn't believe that there's a million wheelbarrows

0:43:520:43:56

made and sold in the UK, purely to the UK every year.

0:43:560:43:59

There's a million horses in the UK as well

0:43:590:44:02

and every horse is a potential customer. Right now, we've sold

0:44:020:44:06

1,000 sample booster units.

0:44:060:44:09

We've got 7,000 that have been pre-ordered,

0:44:090:44:11

deposits have been paid for -

0:44:110:44:13

obviously we have evidence which we can back this up with.

0:44:130:44:18

-Thank you for your time.

-Thank you.

0:44:180:44:20

A no-nonsense pitch from father-and-son team

0:44:230:44:26

Michael and Joe Smith from Keighley.

0:44:260:44:28

For just 10% of their company,

0:44:280:44:30

they want a £50,000 investment

0:44:300:44:33

to take their rather nifty wheelbarrow extender

0:44:330:44:37

-into the mass market.

-Carry on.

0:44:370:44:40

Hilary Devey looks impressed.

0:44:400:44:42

-Hi, Joe.

-Hello.

-Hi, Michael.

-Hiya.

0:44:440:44:47

I think it's really simple, very innovative.

0:44:470:44:50

It saves a lot of time and energy, a lot of walking about.

0:44:500:44:54

Tell me about your own backgrounds.

0:44:540:44:57

My background is landscape gardening, which is how it came about.

0:44:570:45:01

I tried to think of a way of getting more in my barrow, you know,

0:45:010:45:05

in one go, to save me traipsing. I came up with this

0:45:050:45:07

and it's only, probably, just over 12 months ago

0:45:070:45:10

Joe asked me what became of it because he used to help me as a kid.

0:45:100:45:15

Um, and I said, "It's still about."

0:45:150:45:16

And he said, "Well, I think we can do something with it now."

0:45:160:45:19

You know, we got up and running and here we are basically.

0:45:190:45:22

What about you, Joe?

0:45:220:45:23

I work in accountancy recruitment

0:45:230:45:26

and I've done that for about nine years, ever since I left university.

0:45:260:45:29

And your plans are to take this to a mass market?

0:45:290:45:33

-We would like to.

-UK, Europe and the States?

0:45:330:45:35

We're getting interest from all over the world. E-mails daily.

0:45:350:45:40

How are you generating that interest currently?

0:45:400:45:42

Er, well...

0:45:420:45:43

Well, I don't know.

0:45:430:45:46

I mean, well...daft as I...

0:45:460:45:49

I push it as much as I can.

0:45:490:45:53

Say I feel that we're not getting enough interest, I'll spend time

0:45:530:45:56

as I can trying to grow awareness on anything - social media sites...

0:45:560:45:59

Horse & Hound have done a little piece for us,

0:45:590:46:02

The English Garden magazine did a piece on us,

0:46:020:46:05

the Garden News, a national newspaper,

0:46:050:46:07

they did a big two-page spread.

0:46:070:46:09

Basically we spend a lot of time just writing out to everyone we could.

0:46:090:46:13

A self-assured start for the duo.

0:46:140:46:17

Will Theo Paphitis share his rival's obvious interest?

0:46:170:46:22

Guys, you've got a product which... I don't know why anyone hasn't thought of it before.

0:46:230:46:28

-It's ingenious.

-Yeah.

0:46:280:46:29

The 7,000 you had deposits in,

0:46:310:46:33

is it from consumers, or from retailers, or...

0:46:330:46:37

Deposit from three of the largest equestrian wholesalers

0:46:370:46:40

in the country,

0:46:400:46:42

there are shopping channels - including QVC -

0:46:420:46:44

and there is an international company within the USA.

0:46:440:46:49

A lot of these orders have come in in the last two or three months.

0:46:490:46:52

It's taken us by surprise at how it's mushroomed.

0:46:520:46:54

I'd like to feel that with a Dragon on board, instead of

0:46:540:46:59

going to a wholesaler we'd be able to knock down doors

0:46:590:47:02

direct to the retailer.

0:47:020:47:03

-DEBORAH:

-Um, can I ask a question?

0:47:030:47:05

Can you tell me, which do you see as the biggest market?

0:47:050:47:08

Is it landscaping, or is it equestrian?

0:47:080:47:10

Both.

0:47:100:47:12

I see the biggest market being garden centres et cetera.

0:47:120:47:16

And we do have a company that's actually offered

0:47:160:47:19

a licensing agreement.

0:47:190:47:22

They've been in the gardening business 20 years.

0:47:220:47:25

They've shown it to the largest German garden centre retailer

0:47:250:47:30

who has got 350 stores.

0:47:300:47:32

They've also had an agreement through an English retailer

0:47:320:47:35

who's got 147 stores.

0:47:350:47:37

And if you talk about royalties,

0:47:370:47:39

usually they give you an idea of how many they're going to sell.

0:47:390:47:41

So how many did you...

0:47:410:47:43

They said 100,000 within a year they believed they could sell.

0:47:430:47:46

-THEO:

-Was there a minimum guarantee?

-Minimum guarantee of 30,000.

0:47:460:47:49

They wanted to take full control and offer us between, like,

0:47:510:47:54

30 and 50p per unit, which right now we've turned down.

0:47:540:47:57

We said, "Go away and sharpen your pencil."

0:47:570:47:59

Multiple market potential and interest from overseas -

0:48:030:48:06

impressive stuff from the father and son.

0:48:060:48:09

Now, Duncan Bannatyne wants to investigate the numbers.

0:48:090:48:13

-Joe, you've sold 8,000 of these.

-Yes.

0:48:160:48:19

And so what's the revenue from that 8,000?

0:48:190:48:22

The revenue from the total 8,000 is £47,000.

0:48:220:48:27

Right. Um, so, what's your projected profit in the next year?

0:48:270:48:31

Er, the business plan with a Dragon on board,

0:48:310:48:33

the projected profit is £125,000.

0:48:330:48:36

And we feel by year three, that we'll be turning over around £990,000

0:48:360:48:41

and we feel that there'd be around £375,000 profit in that.

0:48:410:48:45

OK.

0:48:470:48:48

I'm going to make you an offer.

0:48:500:48:52

But my concern is whether or not

0:48:530:48:56

you can sell enough of these products

0:48:560:49:00

to make enough profit to get your company worth £500,000.

0:49:000:49:05

So I'm going to make you an offer of £50,000...

0:49:080:49:12

..but I want 50% of the company.

0:49:140:49:18

Yeah, it's a non-starter. We don't want to give away more than 10%.

0:49:220:49:26

-Are you stuck at 10%?

-Yeah.

-So, you wouldn't take £50,000 for 11%?

0:49:270:49:32

Would you give us 60 grand for 9%?

0:49:320:49:34

DRAGONS CHUCKLE

0:49:340:49:35

Would you take £50,000 for 11%?

0:49:350:49:39

-Go on, then.

-So you're not stuck at 10%?

-Well, but you won't get to 11½.

0:49:390:49:43

Calamity in the Den.

0:49:470:49:50

Michael's forthright rejection

0:49:500:49:51

causes indignation amongst the Dragon investors.

0:49:510:49:55

And Deborah Meaden is not one to let him off the hook.

0:49:550:49:58

OK, Duncan, can I just thank you, because I was sitting here

0:50:000:50:04

thinking, "This is a really nice product and is it worth a punt?"

0:50:040:50:10

But saying that you wouldn't go from 11% to 11½%

0:50:100:50:15

having laid all your cards on the table,

0:50:150:50:18

saying what a Dragon can bring to you,

0:50:180:50:20

the difference it can make to the business,

0:50:200:50:22

I can imagine what would happen if we were working together

0:50:220:50:27

and you didn't want to do something that I thought was going to make the difference to the business.

0:50:270:50:31

-That's...

-You'd be saying, "Absolutely not! That's what I said

0:50:310:50:34

"this morning I was going to do and I'm not going to move one inch."

0:50:340:50:38

You having a good idea is totally different

0:50:380:50:40

from me moving off 10%, isn't it?

0:50:400:50:42

Do you want an investor?

0:50:450:50:47

Well, yeah, like I said. We need... I don't want to give 50...

0:50:490:50:54

OK, can I just say?

0:50:540:50:57

When you've had a good offer for 50%,

0:50:570:51:00

-you could well have negotiated on that.

-For 50 grand?!

0:51:000:51:02

But I've got to tell you, you didn't look serious to me.

0:51:020:51:06

-In what way?

-You didn't look like you were in here to do a deal.

0:51:060:51:09

Well, I wouldn't have signed anything here and now, would I?

0:51:090:51:12

-There'd be thinking time involved.

-Michael, I can't help you any more.

0:51:120:51:17

I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

0:51:170:51:18

Guys, you are valuing the business at half a million quid

0:51:200:51:23

and the company that wanted exclusivity

0:51:230:51:27

basically offered you ten grand.

0:51:270:51:29

So Duncan's offer actually isn't that ridiculous

0:51:290:51:31

when you look at it.

0:51:310:51:33

In fact it could be argued that it's incredibly generous.

0:51:330:51:36

We've both said 10% is what we're going to do.

0:51:360:51:40

It's business at the end of the day - and we would discuss it,

0:51:400:51:43

but then again you do have kneejerk reactions and, Duncan,

0:51:430:51:46

thank you for your offer as well, by the way.

0:51:460:51:49

Michael, let me help you.

0:51:490:51:52

You are NOT a willing partner here. Your body language,

0:51:520:51:55

everything that says it, you're not a willing partner.

0:51:550:51:58

-Well, I accept that. Yes.

-OK?

0:51:580:51:59

And on that basis, there is no deal for me.

0:51:590:52:02

I'm out.

0:52:040:52:06

Ostracised by Michael's unwillingness to negotiate,

0:52:100:52:13

two Dragons refuse to do business with the duo.

0:52:130:52:16

But has Peter Jones got something on his mind?

0:52:170:52:20

-Joe?

-Yes.

0:52:230:52:25

Is your goal to become wealthy,

0:52:250:52:27

or is your goal to see your dad's legacy sell a lot of product?

0:52:270:52:32

-The goal's to make money.

-Right.

0:52:320:52:33

-If your father wasn't in the room...

-Yep.

0:52:330:52:37

..and somebody said to you, "I want 50% of this business..."

0:52:370:52:41

Yep.

0:52:410:52:42

"..on the guarantee that you will make half a million pounds,"

0:52:420:52:46

would you accept the deal?

0:52:460:52:49

Er, yeah, I would.

0:52:490:52:50

OK.

0:52:510:52:52

I think you got that offer a few minutes ago from Duncan.

0:52:540:52:57

Because he could generate income for that business

0:53:000:53:03

worth half a million quid, and you dismissed it out of hand.

0:53:030:53:08

And I think that would be the biggest lesson for your dad.

0:53:120:53:16

It's what you want, and the money that you gain from a business,

0:53:190:53:21

not how much of it you control or own.

0:53:210:53:23

Mm.

0:53:230:53:25

So I need to tell you that working with you guys, to me

0:53:250:53:29

as an investor, doesn't work.

0:53:290:53:30

So I'm out.

0:53:300:53:32

-But I hope what I've said...

-MICHAEL:

-It'll be taken on board,

0:53:320:53:35

-yeah. Yeah, thank you.

-Be a lesson.

0:53:350:53:37

A lesson in the Den and another Dragon out.

0:53:410:53:44

Joe and his now sheepish father

0:53:440:53:46

see their chances of investment slipping away.

0:53:460:53:49

And Hilary Devey is ready to have her say, too.

0:53:500:53:54

Can I be honest with you? Can I be really blunt?

0:53:570:53:59

I think you've got a fantastic opportunity stood here,

0:53:590:54:03

and I think you're saying

0:54:030:54:04

all the wrong things that we do not want to hear.

0:54:040:54:09

I understand what you're saying

0:54:090:54:11

but he's a little bit more level-headed than I am.

0:54:110:54:13

-That's top and bottom of it.

-You're a typical Yorkshireman.

0:54:150:54:19

-I'm not going to apologise.

-You are very much

0:54:190:54:21

a typical Yorkshireman, I work with them every day.

0:54:210:54:24

-It's worn off him a lot.

-Why don't you, for your son's sake, try and be a businessman.

0:54:240:54:28

Right, OK, OK.

0:54:280:54:31

It's for him essentially, cos he's going to own the company one day.

0:54:310:54:34

Well, if he's going to inherit this business, I don't think you should be in a position to stand there

0:54:340:54:39

and say you're not going to negotiate.

0:54:390:54:41

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

0:54:430:54:45

It's a real shame, because I really like your product.

0:54:480:54:51

I actually quite like you, Michael, cos I think I could handle you.

0:54:540:54:58

Good.

0:54:580:54:59

I mean, the 50 grand isn't in any danger, to be honest with you.

0:55:040:55:07

It's... You know, you're never not going to get it back with interest.

0:55:070:55:11

It's if you think it's good enough. I think this is going to make money.

0:55:110:55:15

I certainly wouldn't be interested in 10%.

0:55:180:55:21

Would you be interested in splitting it?

0:55:270:55:29

It all depends on the percentages.

0:55:290:55:32

50%.

0:55:350:55:37

OK.

0:55:410:55:42

So we both take 25% each.

0:55:420:55:46

-JOE:

-Can we go away and have a minute?

0:55:510:55:53

It's a very rare occurrence for entrepreneurs to get a second chance

0:55:590:56:03

in the Den, but that's what Michael and Joe now have.

0:56:030:56:07

-JOE:

-I don't know. I don't know...

-MICHAEL: I think so...

0:56:070:56:11

Um, we want to know the projection of what's going to come back

0:56:180:56:23

for the 50%. If it was on about half a million pounds,

0:56:230:56:27

if that sort of money's being bandied around, I'd sooner he had it.

0:56:270:56:31

I can't project what we're going to make.

0:56:330:56:35

But on the basis of £50,000 I will give it a go.

0:56:360:56:39

But it's entirely up to you whether you want to accept.

0:56:390:56:42

OK.

0:56:430:56:45

Er, we had an upper limit of what we'd go to and how hard we'd worked.

0:56:490:56:54

And to say we're wasting your time but we wouldn't get to 20.

0:56:540:56:58

I've got to say... I've got to say I'm out.

0:57:000:57:03

Um, I've got to say I'm out.

0:57:040:57:07

Thank you for your time today. We'll just have to say how we go.

0:57:070:57:10

We'll stand and fall on our own two feet for that. But thank you.

0:57:100:57:13

-PETER:

-Thank you, Joe. Thanks, Michael.

0:57:140:57:16

A sorry end to some protracted negotiations.

0:57:160:57:20

Sometimes in business deals just aren't meant to be.

0:57:200:57:22

Michael and Joe leave with nothing.

0:57:220:57:25

It's not that often in the Den

0:57:380:57:40

we see an offer from the Dragons turned down.

0:57:400:57:42

When we do you have to ask,

0:57:420:57:44

is it A - because the entrepreneurs know exactly what they're doing,

0:57:440:57:47

or B - because they're misguided?

0:57:470:57:50

Well, in Michael and Joe's case today,

0:57:500:57:52

it has to be one or the other.

0:57:520:57:55

I'll leave you to decide which it is.

0:57:550:57:57

Do you think you have what it takes to pitch to the Dragons?

0:57:570:58:01

For information on how to apply, visit our website:

0:58:010:58:04

bbc.co.uk/dragonsden

0:58:040:58:07

Goodbye.

0:58:070:58:09

Next week in the Den.

0:58:100:58:12

I'm amazed how well you can present an absolutely ridiculous idea.

0:58:120:58:17

But you can't! Cos if you could, you'd be making them day and night

0:58:170:58:21

and smoking a cigar on a Caribbean beach.

0:58:210:58:24

I'm asking you to compare a green apple with a green apple.

0:58:240:58:28

Not an apple with a banana. Not an orange with a grape.

0:58:280:58:31

I have no idea what you're talking about, Duncan.

0:58:310:58:34

-THEO:

-Not bad.

-I can't say any more.

0:58:350:58:37

I am out.

0:58:370:58:40

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