Episode 8 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons,

five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.

Over the coming weeks,

they'll make or break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

Business is absolutely simple. People complicate business.

I don't want you to do it because it's a bad idea.

Well, I'm doing to give you a dilemma, then.

£240,000?

So, what's your answer, then?

The multimillionaire investors have each

built up their fortunes from scratch.

Retail magnate, Theo Paphitis.

Hotel and health club owner, Duncan Bannatyne.

Leisure industry expert, Deborah Meaden.

Queen of logistics, Hilary Devey.

And telecoms giant, Peter Jones.

The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment

and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.

Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs walk away

with their money?

Welcome back to Dragons' Den.

It's a slightly different-looking Den tonight.

Unfortunately, we've had to send Hilary Devey home

because she's not feeling too well,

but the remaining multi-millionaire investors

are ready and willing to back the very best ideas with their own cash.

So will our latest batch of entrepreneurs find four Dragons

any easier to win over?

I somehow doubt it.

Ambition is good, right? Well, our first entrepreneur has that.

Paul Turner wanted to transform his family business into a

nationally-recognised brand, but to do so, he needs the Dragons' help.

Hello, Dragons. My name's Paul Turner,

and I'm here today to ask for an £80,000 investment in return

for 20% equity in my company, A Turner & Sons Sausage Ltd.

We have created a range of award-winning premium sausages,

developed from original family recipes

passed down from my grandfather, Alfred Turner.

Our awards have won...

Our sausages have won awards at national and regional level,

with our Best Of British sausage

being named Britain's Best Banger 2011.

And our pickled pig sausage...

..being named Britain's Best Sausage 2012.

Being a third-generation butcher from Aldershot, the ancestral

home of the British Army, we have strong military connections.

Last year, within one of the major retailers,

we did a four-week promotion in aid of Help For Heroes,

and we sold 74,000 units with no marketing support at all.

I hope you can see my passion and enthusiasm,

if not nervousness for my products and my business,

and I'd now like to invite you to come and sample the sausages, please.

The flustered sausage man Paul Turner finally finishes his pitch.

Hailing from a long line of local butchers, he is now hoping to

take his recipes nationwide, but he needs £80,000 to do so.

Lovely. Mmm.

On offer is a 20% stake in his business.

Partial to a bit of sausage, Peter Jones looks intrigued.

-Paul.

-Hello.

The sausages taste really good.

Thank you very much.

What have you really got, though, as a USP?

I'm a traditional butcher.

That's all I've done from 16 when I left school,

working in the family business.

I've been taught the traditional way that the sausages were made,

and I just feel that I wanted to introduce a true butcher's brand.

You think Alf Turner is the brand?

Definitely, yeah.

I'm very proud of my grandfather.

He was the chief butcher instructor at the Royal Army Service Corps,

and he was awarded the British Empire medal

for services to the meat industry in the early '50s.

His house became his business when he left the Army.

Dad worked there, and both his brothers,

and I'm now 50% business partner with my younger brother.

Thing is, with the supermarkets, I'm trying to think of the pitch.

You know, you're standing there in front of a bar at the supermarket,

and you're going to say, "Well, I'm really proud of my granddad."

Two of these sausages have been voted the best in Britain.

I do think we are unique with having the true butcher's heritage.

Passionate responses, perhaps,

but it takes more than that to get investment from these Dragons.

Theo Paphitis is keen to find out more.

Paul. So, let me get this right. You've got a shop in Aldershot.

A standard butcher's shop in Aldershot.

That's not what you're offering us an opportunity in.

No, it's the sausage company, A Turner & Sons Sausage Ltd.

Has A Turner & Sons Sausage Ltd traded yet?

We have. In the accounts filed in January of this year,

we had a turnover of £12,000, which showed a net loss of £1,300.

I did get excited when you said you sold 74,000.

Is that turnover in here?

Yes. I had to completely reduce my actual take to convince the outlet

to actually take me nationally.

Who was it?

It was Tesco.

How many stores?

570.

570 supermarkets.

Yeah.

And once that was over, they said, "Thank you very much,

"Don't darken our doorstep again?"

No, no. They require marketing budgets for you to put into place

promotional offers, and I just didn't have the capacity to

cover a national listing with the marketing fees.

-And because you couldn't do that...

-Didn't have the money.

..they said, "Well, in that case, we can't list you."

"Talk to us, we'll follow it in the future." Yeah.

Meagre margins from the major multiples.

It's a common stumbling block in the Den.

Can Deborah Meaden find any money-making potential?

-Paul.

-Yep.

Can I understand the financial mechanics of this?

What's the retail price?

Retail price we're setting at the moment is £2.79.

I've found a company down in Newton Abbot.

I license them to produce my recipes.

And they pay you how much?

I have a license fee of 20p per unit.

Plus I donate to Help For Heroes.

So you get a straight 20p.

20p.

Whatever happens to the retail?

If it goes on to promotion, then my revenue drops.

We've been down to 12 and a half pence.

Paul, is it really viable?

I mean, the minute you go into a supermarket,

you lose so much of your USP.

And you just become a story.

Do you know how many brands there are out there

that claim all sorts of heritage?

Yeah.

It's just marketing.

You then have to get your brand above the noise.

To get a brand above all the noise that goes on is expensive.

When you're only making 20p at best,

it's a very, very, very hard call.

I fully understand.

I just can't see it.

OK.

So I'm afraid I'm out.

A dejected-looking Paul loses his first Dragon.

Can Duncan Bannatyne offer him any hope?

Paul, you say the general public buy them because there's

a tradition of family butchery going back many, many years.

It doesn't really cut it for the public, because the tradition

isn't what's going to sell sausages.

It's whether or not people are buying the best sausage, with good meat.

That's what they want to know,

and I think I'm a little bit confused about the brand.

-OK.

-These two here, for example,

because this one's called Pickled Pig.

-Yeah.

-And this one's called Hair Of The Hog.

Yeah.

-And they're both pork and ale sausages.

-OK.

Now, as I'm doing my shopping, I wouldn't want to go further

and dissect it, and know what the differences,

-but these two are different.

-Yeah.

So I think you're confusing the issue a little bit

by putting these names on them.

Your sausages are excellent,

-and I wish there was more butchers like you.

-Thank you very much.

But I can't invest, and so I've got to say I'm out.

OK, thank you. Thank you for your time.

Erm, I completely disagree with Duncan over

-the irrelevance of your heritage.

-Yeah.

Because, actually,

I think that when people are buying for the first time, they have to

trust you, and actually provenance does count at the premium end.

Yes.

Because it gives those customers a reason to believe

what you're saying. That's important.

However, I do completely agree with Duncan with the various ale

sausages, because, to be honest, people don't read that much.

You need an ale sausage, you need a standard sausage,

an ale sausage, a Christmas sausage, whatever.

I completely agree with that.

I fully agree with that.

So I'm not convinced you're going to dominate the supermarket space,

which is exactly what you want us for.

I'm afraid I won't be investing, Paul. So, I'm out.

OK, thank you.

Paul, the reality is you're asking for £80,000.

You're not asking for a £10,000 investment here.

-I fully understand.

-And it doesn't make any money.

I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe in my brand

and what I think I can sell, and just from thinking outside the box,

the different ideas I can bring.

I want to ask a couple of questions, actually, about your current business.

What sort of turnover do you do in the shop?

Last year we turned over 750,000.

Wow.

That showed a net profit of 50,000.

And you take a salary from that?

I do take a salary, yeah.

And your brother as well?

My brother as well, yeah.

To make this work, would you look at an investment in Alf Turner & Sons?

I would...

I would be very...

I see...

What you can bring to me

is scalability on a sausage company, not a butcher's shop.

Yeah. All I'm doing is looking, if I was to invest,

I'm de-risking my investment.

I fully appreciate that.

At the moment, investing £80,000 in a new business is too high-risk.

I would much prefer to do the sausage company.

I'm sorry.

Well, I'm going to give you a dilemma, then.

And I'm going to offer you the full £80,000...

..but I want an equal share

with your brother in the butcher business.

At the top co.

So I want 33 and a third percent of your and your brother's business.

OK.

And we will use the £80,000 that I invest to go and make this product.

If I can achieve the sales that I think I can achieve,

can we then hand back my butcher's shop business?

How quickly could I get the 80,000 back?

I think, with your help...

12 months? Two years?

I think before 12 months.

I don't see why we can't. I think we can sell 75,000 a week.

So, what you're saying is I invest £80,000.

Yeah.

If, within 12 months, my £80,000, through profits,

has been returned, I hand back 33 and a third percent

of your main business back to you and your brother,

and I retain 33 and a third percent in the sausage business.

So you would have no other hold over the butcher's shop?

So, what's your answer, Paul?

I'd very much like to accept your offer.

-He's in the sausage business!

-I'm in the sausage business!

It may not have gone the way Paul imagined...

-Well done.

-Thank you very much indeed.

..but at least he gets the cash and the investor he badly needed.

These Dragons can be a canny lot.

It's a good deal, Peter. For both of you.

I'm really pleased I've done it, I really am.

To my grandfather, that means a real lot to me.

It's quite an emotional thing.

I'm just thrilled to bits, and hopefully he's pleased, too.

Many entrepreneurs who enter the Den have a particular

Dragon in mind as the perfect fit for their business idea.

Sadly for inventor Ken Boyd, his hopes were pinned on Hilary Devey.

Hello, Dragons!

Now, all the Dragons have a wide investment portfolio,

so what would they make of Ken's revolutionary wheel-cleaning device?

What we do is we take the kit up to the wheel. That's nicely connected.

A few pumps of the water.

First, you're going to clean your wheel with your fluid,

and you can commence your cleaning.

You don't need gloves, you don't need eye goggles or anything else,

and you will have better wheels than you currently have.

I'm sorry. I'm just laughing because it just looks very complicated.

I assure you, it's not.

Despite a clear demonstration,

the product's practicality remained a sticking point for the Dragons.

I guess I'm just trying to understand

what problem you think this is solving.

The problem it's solving is it's cleaning your wheels properly,

efficiently and quickly.

It reminds me of a puppet show.

Where you put your hands and you control the things,

but you never quite control them perfectly.

Perhaps I didn't do a very good demonstration, Peter.

It has been used, and it is fit for purpose.

It does the job it's designed to do.

Ken, there's two very distinct ways in which wheels are cleaned.

One is with a brush, the second one is using a pressure washer.

Does yours do something miraculous?

Yes, it cleans wheels.

Properly.

Top marks for a steadfast defence,

but can didn't score so highly when it came to investable potential.

Theo said there was two ways to wash your wheels.

I think there's a third, and I think it's the easiest one.

It's called a car wash.

The problem with this is it's an over-engineered solution

to a problem that certainly doesn't exist in a big way,

so I'm going to have to say those words, I'm out.

-That's a shame.

-Good luck, Ken.

-Thank you very much.

Normally, I'd be sceptical of a business idea dreamed up in a pub,

but when it involves a doctor,

a nurse and a paramedic, well, I'd take it more seriously,

and that is the case with our next entrepreneurs,

so have they come up with an investable business proposition?

Hello, my name is Dr Caroline Howard.

We're here for a £50,000 investment in return for a 10% share

in our company.

I'd now like to introduce Chris Kurt Gabel and Lee Taylor.

The business was founded by three healthcare professionals

who are active in the healthcare industry. Paramedic, doctor and nurse.

We saw a gap in the provision for this type of training.

First aid and CPR training is one of the most requested

training sessions in UK business today.

If one of the Dragons were to have a medical emergency right now,

would you know what to do?

Oh, my God. They don't do very well. Hello, can you hear me?

Can you open your eyes? Caroline, hold on a second.

I think they've had a cardiac arrest. They're not breathing, or responding.

Can you call an ambulance?

999. Ambulance, please. Cardiac arrest in the Dragons' Den.

OK, I'll get the defib out. Chris, keep doing the CPR.

DEFIBRILATOR BEEPS

Mind your second hand.

'Analysing heart rhythm.'

Stop CPR.

'Do not touch the patient.'

'Shock advised.'

Are you clear?

'Charging. Deliver shock now.'

Shock delivered. Let's do some CPR.

After the demonstration, we'd revisit the same scenario,

talk about what we do and why we do it before the candidates have

a chance to practice exactly the same thing.

Since the business was founded in 2006,

we've shown steady growth between years one to four, and are predicting 8.2% growth

in the last financial year just gone.

Thank you for listening to us,

and we are now happy for any questions which you may have.

Emergency in the Den, but thankfully, medical professionals

Chris Kurt Gabel, Dr Caroline Howard and Lee Taylor are on hand.

They need a £50,000 investment in their London-based first aid

training business in return for a 10% share.

Peter Jones is first to question the three friends.

Firstly, very good demonstration.

You didn't actually tell us what the company made, so what have you done

in the last 12 months?

The last accounts that we have, we had a turnover of £250,000.

And what was the net profit?

The net profit was £112,000.

So is it just three of you working in the business at the moment?

Two people work full-time, Chris and somebody else,

and we've got two other part-timers who work two days a week.

We have a lot of the resources already within the business

in terms of an existing base of people to deliver training.

What we need to do is to get the bookings

and the actual need for those people and get them out there.

OK. Caroline and Lee, what do you bring to the party, then,

in terms of the business?

I'm a full-time A&E consultant in an NHS Trust.

We're quite unique in that we are actually the only provider

of these kind of services that has a medical director,

so qualified as a doctor.

OK, and Lee?

I'm a paramedic by trade, and a resus officer, so...

OK, so Chris, then, obviously owns most of the company.

Is that right, Chris?

The shareholding is divided between us.

I own 45%, Lee owns 45% and Caroline owns 10%.

OK.

Lee was employed up until April.

The person that's replaced him is also a paramedic, so what we've kept

is that broad spectrum of training, in terms of our backgrounds.

So why did Lee move away from the business?

It's purely a personal thing.

I've moved to another part of the country, and it wouldn't be

practical for me, within that location, to work on a daily basis.

Confusion, not clarity, from the trio. It's a shaky start.

Can Theo Paphitis get to the bottom

of this complex business arrangement?

Lee, what part of the world are you moving to?

To the south coast of the UK.

And that, in itself,

has made it impossible for you to work in the business?

Most of the work that we're going to is in London

and the Home Counties, or up the M1 corridor.

So the business that you helped start up, which is doing well,

and you own 45% of, and you get your livelihood from,

but you're having a new life.

Yeah, absolutely right.

Are you going to retain your shareholding?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

How, in that case, are you going to carry on helping the business?

However they want me to.

I think what Lee's saying is he's changed his mindset,

and he will still come back and help cover the ad hoc training

sessions where we have too much demand, and we do have.

I don't think I'll be letting the business down.

It's important for me that the business does well, obviously,

as a shareholder, and I will still be a part of it.

The Dragons seem sidetracked,

with questions about the company structure.

Can Deborah Meaden make any headway?

I want to get back to the business model. What are your projections?

This year we're aiming to grow our revenues by at least 10%.

We're hoping to make £350,000, if we're really smart about it,

but keep our profit margin at around 55%,

so that's come to be about 170,000, there or thereabouts.

So, what would your salary be, then?

£30,000.

And how much for you?

Lee no longer is getting a salary, so we've employed somebody

on a salary in order to cover Lee's training.

You've added £30,000 worth of salary for you.

£30,000 worth of salary for Lee's training.

So we're now down to 110, and then what is your expectations,

in terms of dividend? What are you expecting, Lee?

I think my dividends will drop, to begin with,

and I'm quite happy for that to happen.

Hopefully it won't happen, but, yeah.

-And are all three of you saying exactly the same thing?

-Absolutely.

Since he left the company, he's signed exactly the same waiver

that I signed right back in the beginning.

-So now you're not taking dividends?

-Correct.

-And you are still taking dividends?

-At the moment.

-It's just, it's muddled.

-OK.

And it's worrying for an investor.

You don't just invest in a business, you invest in a structure

of a business, the people, and you've got to understand the way

they're thinking, so I'm afraid I won't be investing in you.

-I'm out.

-Thank you, Deborah.

Confusion reigns as a frustrated Deborah Meaden refuses to do

business with Chris, Caroline and Lee.

And Peter Jones is not looking impressed either.

I don't get the whole Lee situation at all,

and why he would even think that he could retain 45% of the business

when he's got nothing to do with it any more.

I can't see how this could actually work

that wouldn't lead to frustration.

So I would like to declare myself out.

Thank you, Peter.

I've been trying to formulate an offer,

and I thought I'd formulated an offer, until something went wrong.

The structure doesn't work.

Maybe that's partly why we've come to the Dragons.

Maybe there's a bit of self-realisation,

and what you bring to the table is the knowledge of what business

structures and models work well.

We are healthcare professionals first and business people second.

Oh, please, don't do yourselves down.

Let me just explain something to you. Business is absolutely simple.

People complicate business. Business is about common sense.

And I'm certainly not classing you

as anything other than people who know what they're doing.

But the fact that you're going, and still going to be a shareholder,

and you haven't quite worked out between yourselves

the practical issues that that's going to create...

..I think makes it very hard for me to make an offer.

So because of that, I'm out.

Two more damning verdicts, and so far,

the Dragons are in complete agreement.

But has Duncan Bannatyne seen something that his rivals have not?

I'm not worried about the dividend thing. I think that can be resolved.

I'm going to ask you something now which is something

that's concerning me more.

What percentage of the £350,000

will come from NHS and private hospitals?

We've got around a 40% NHS client base,

we've got about 25% private hospitals.

I do like the figures, and I do like the numbers,

but I am concerned that you have one customer base,

and if they stop, you're finished.

It's a huge risk.

The safety margin, if you like, that we have,

is that a lot of what we provide is mandatory training.

That's decided by government regulatory bodies.

With some of our clients, we have contractual arrangements,

so there's some guaranteed revenue streams.

-From the NHS clients?

-Yes.

So we've just signed a two-year contract with one NHS client,

and we've just signed a three-year contract with another NHS client.

I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to offer you all the money...

..but I'm not going to be in a business where I own 10%.

This is complicated.

So I want 32% of the company.

Can we have, erm..?

Yeah.

I think you need to turn round and say, "We don't want to give you 30%."

Do you want to make a counter offer?

I think that's where it needs to be.

OK.

The verdict is that we don't want to give up 32% of the company.

We only want to give up ten.

Oh.

OK, then. That means I'm out. Thank you.

-Thank you very much.

-Thank you for your time.

An unusual end to an unusual pitch.

Chris, Caroline, and Lee may have received a financial lifeline,

but the price-tag was just too high. They leave with nothing.

Entrepreneurs asking the Dragons to help with a demonstration

have to be supremely confident in their product,

or risk calamity in the Den.

Which was to be for Brian Smith from Brighton,

who'd brought along his twist on an ancient Japanese art form?

Popagami brings origami into the 21st century, and I'd like to

present you with some very special sheets I've designed for you.

Go for it.

Not good so far!

I don't know why you're laughing at mine, Theo!

Don't laugh at me!

Fortunately for Brian, it was the Dragons' competitive streak

that took over, as they were determined to outdo their rivals.

-That corner or that corner? Does it matter?

-It doesn't matter, no.

Just concentrate, Deborah, for goodness sake!

I've gone all wrong.

Just drop out. There's Peter and I in this race now.

Here's one for Hilary.

Oh, baby!

Blow, harder. That's it!

Congratulations, because that's the first time any Dragon's

been able to take instruction.

So, disaster averted for now.

But then the business interrogation began.

I enjoyed doing it,

but how do you monetise it and make it a real business?

Well, part of the financial side of this is the app.

I think it has the potential for a global market,

if it sells one million, two million, three million.

Have you ever run a business before, Brian?

No.

In the end, it was a case of kind words,

but no cash for the likeable entrepreneur.

How much money have you put into Poppets Ltd?

At least 40,000.

That's painful.

It's not scalable, but I could see a lot of applications for it,

not least of which was with some of the wildlife charities.

Good luck to you, but I can't see how

I could make money out of it, so I'm going to say I'm out.

Thank you.

The four multimillionaires may be a Dragon down,

but they have already invested in one up-and-coming business tonight.

I'd like to accept your offer.

I'm in the sausage business!

To find out why Peter Jones decided to enter the sausage business,

press the red button at the end of the programme.

Music, film and theatre are all sectors in which Britain's

a world leader,

but it still takes quite a bit of courage to invest in the arts.

Georgie King and her father Simon from Hertfordshire

think they are worth a gamble.

VOICEOVER: 'There is somewhere a hidden door to a world

'you have never seen before.

'A world unleashed when the moon is pale, a world where nothing

'but rhythm prevails, where DrumChasers battle to no avail.

'This, my friends, is the Noiseland tale.'

Great. Thank you.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you.

Hello. My name's Georgie, and this is my dad, Simon.

We are the producers of DrumChasers.

DrumChasers is a musical without words. A family show, written by

Ethan Lewis Maltby, an up-and-coming composer,

and we have some magical narration by Stephen Fry.

We're asking for £60,000 in exchange for 20% of the company.

We're going to use this to drive our marketing.

To date, we have completed two national tours, supporting workshops

and corporate events, including Cineworld and Telenet.

What we're asking for is support to have a profitable tour in bigger

theatres, and then Georgie's dream is the show will go into the West End.

Thank you.

Quite a show from Hertfordshire-based Simon and Georgie King

and their troupe of drummers.

The father and daughter team need £60,000 to turn their vibrant

percussion show into a box-office hit.

Duncan Bannatyne is first to interrogate the pair.

So, this is a play?

Give us a brief overview of what the story is.

It's a sort of West Side Story-type thing.

It's two sides, the battle against each other.

There's a love interest in the middle.

How many productions have you put on?

We've put on 30.

30 in two tours?

Yes.

So you should have enough money to do a third tour

without raising any more money?

So why are you here? Has it gone bad?

It hasn't gone bad.

Throughout the two tours we've made our money back,

so we've broken even as it stands now.

We think the reason why it didn't work so well was

because we didn't have enough backing in the marketing department.

I think, to get it noticed,

to get people really understanding this, you've got to spend money

and be in local newspapers, and we've got to do a stronger job online.

And we also need someone backing it.

I think we've seen some things done in the theatre badly,

and think this is a good opportunity to do it really well.

Confident responses from Simon and Georgie.

Theo Paphitis looks intrigued by this sure-footed duo.

I often say that I invest in people first and the project secondly.

So tell us about what you've done.

-What I've done?

-Yes.

I was a professional dancer for five years, going around the UK,

and I was a musician.

I have every skill within the actual theatre, setting up the tour.

I've learned a lot of things on the way.

I'm a quick learner, but I took it all on myself.

OK. What part do you play in this?

What I've tried to do in supporting Georgie with this is make sure

that we're ready, step-by-step.

Not jumping immediately, saying we're ready for the West End. Let's learn how to make a profit.

-What's your expertise?

-I come from a retail background.

-You're a shopkeeper?

-Yes.

I've led some of the Tesco businesses internationally,

and I'm currently the MD at Wickes.

So, a father and daughter company.

Yes.

-What, 50-50?

-Yes.

I know she's really young to do it, but I think she's got the ability,

and she's getting better and better at it.

Charm and credibility.

The Dragons look impressed, but is this a money-making opportunity?

Deborah Meaden wants to know.

Talk me through the financial structure.

So, what are you going to sell the tickets for, and what

are the costs that come out against that to get down to the net profit?

1,000 seater, on average, £20 a ticket,

so we're hoping to make £20,000 per show.

OK, so let's start at the top. £20,000 revenue.

It costs us £5,000 per show.

That's for..?

That's for the cast, for the crew.

What do the venues take?

It's a split. 20/80, usually.

So it'll be £4,000.

And then we would hope to have £3,000 per night for the marketing.

Any other costs?

We haven't included any wages for Georgie,

and any royalties back for Ethan.

By the way, is your £20,000 including VAT?

Yes.

So, £16,000, net of VAT?

It's not quite that.

No, ish, but I'm just trying to get to the mechanics, really.

So, were you absolutely sell out, your net profit on each show,

then, is...

..3K.

If I only got 20% of £3,000, per venue,

I'd get £600.

That doesn't sound very good risk, to me.

What we are offering is that you get 20% of the gross sales.

Yeah, but you can't give me 20% of the gross sales.

You haven't got the profit in it.

20,000 including VAT is 16,667 after VAT.

Yes.

£16,667.

Yes. And the £4,000 we pay to the theatre you'd have to take the VAT

back out of it, so we're not quite...

-We're arguing over a few hundred pounds here, is the bottom line.

-Yes, we are.

That's on the basis that you have a sell-out.

If you don't have sell-out, it's costing me money.

It's quite a fine line, when I'm risking £60,000.

I can't see how I can win here.

So, I'm not going to invest on this occasion. I'm going to say that I'm out.

The financial proposition unravels.

It's a first setback for Georgie and her dad.

Will Duncan Bannatyne be more forgiving?

So, what was your capacity where you played before on your two tours?

-The best would have been...

-We got 1,000 in Canterbury.

And you had Cambridge as well with over 1,000,

so we've experienced over 1,000...

In the right areas.

Sorry, Dad. I just wanted to mention that sometimes theatres do give

a guarantee, so if you've got more credibility,

which maybe you would be able to give us,

they might be able to say "This is what we'll pay you," and that's it.

You'll know exactly what's coming in, and it might be above...

OK. I can see all the skills,

and I can see the greatness of the production.

What I can't see is the business and the profit.

The margin's too small. If you had 90% of the receipts,

you would make a loss on the evening.

It's as simple as that. You would make a loss.

Yes, you do.

And to sell 100% is very, very difficult.

I can't invest, and so for that reason, I'm out.

Guys, this is a notoriously difficult area to make business,

and I have to tell you, if I were you,

I would be looking for somebody who is in that sphere already,

and promoting in that sphere already, because I think

you're going to need somebody really working with you on that marketing.

-I don't think I would give you the time you need.

-OK.

-So I'm out.

-Thank you.

Thank you for the feedback. Really helpful.

Two more Dragons walk away from the deal.

Now Georgie's dreams of taking on the West End

rest solely with Theo Paphitis.

I can't see where, if I gave you the money,

how am I going to get anything back?

We've also got the corporate events and workshops we'd like to include,

which you would obviously be part of.

We've actually taken a similar show to this to the FA Cup final,

which went down really well.

Explain what happens in the corporate events.

We charge around £5,000 for a corporate event within the UK.

So how many have you done?

We've done four, to date.

It's such a tough, tough world.

Yes, but we are hard workers.

Let me tell you where I am.

You do tick the boxes as the sort of people that you want to

be in business with and invest in, but it is so tight,

and when I look at that, it's not a business investment,

so I'm afraid, for me, it doesn't work out. I'm out.

Thank you for the feedback.

The Dragons may say it's all about the entrepreneurs,

but there needs to be a money-making business model attached.

Simon and Georgie leave with nothing.

What a shame.

Other entrepreneurs who tried and failed in the Den

included 29-year-old Lindsay Porter from Burton-on-Trent, who

thought she'd spotted a glamorous trend that she could capitalise on.

Proms originated in America, but they are about to take Britain by storm.

My dream is to do prom dress parties,

where I shall actually take a large selection of dresses and get

girls together and choose it in the comfort and safety of their own home.

It seemed Lindsey's pitch hit a raw nerve for one particular Dragon.

I can't believe you've come into the Den today.

I've gone through pain, tears, fights,

strops of two 16-year-olds who are looking for a prom dress.

But the story of the Paphitis twins ended up hindering,

not helping Lindsay's hopes of investment.

You said prom dresses are about to take the UK by storm,

but I think it's already here.

Yes. I just wanted to bring parties back to girls.

And that's very nice, but it's not a business.

I think you're right, in one thing.

I think it is going to be a much bigger market.

But, with respect, what you've pitched, anybody can pitch.

I don't think you have anything behind it that said, "I've done this before."

-I'm not going to invest and I'm out.

-OK. Thank you for your time.

Next in the Den was former nurse Adrienne Lane from Bristol,

who brought a new approach to pitching.

I would like to introduce the Voice Letter.

She had a product that really did speak for itself.

Can I give you this to turn it on, please?

You can, thank you.

'Hello, my name is Adrienne Lane.

'I would like to ask for £15,000.'

It is portable, it can be used by all ages, all cultures.

Please help me to bring the letter into the 21st century.

Now, the Dragons are always looking for the next big

advance in technology.

Is this purely a recording device that you sent by post?

-Yes.

-Have you sold any?

Yes, I've sold five units.

This is a very, very expensive way to deliver information,

when everyone else is cutting costs.

There has been an interest in the product.

I think people have been very, very kind to you

when they've shown an interest,

or they've not been on Earth the last ten years of their lives.

Sadly for Adrienne, her communications vision for the future

was not shared by the multimillionaire investors.

I don't want you to do this.

-OK.

-I don't want you to do it, because it's a bad idea.

-OK.

-There's so many communication devices which are, frankly, better.

-I won't be investing.

-OK.

-So I'm afraid I'm out.

-Good luck.

Sometimes an entrepreneur has a lucky break and stumbles

across a successful product overseas that's unknown to the UK.

Our next entrepreneur, Karina Oldale from Yorkshire,

has done exactly that, and now she wants a Dragon to come on board.

Hello. I'm Karina Oldale from Envirothaw.

I'm here today for £115,000 for 17%.

We're a family-run business.

We specialise in granular and fluid de-icer.

It's an alternative to rock salt.

This product will work down to -55.

It's 90% less corrosive than rock salt.

You can spread it with your hands.

I have it in my hand in there day in, day out,

and I've still got a thumb and four fingers.

It's pet-friendly, child-friendly, it doesn't damage any surface at all.

Our existing customers are airports,

councils, retail outlets, stud farms.

I'd like to invite you all up now to come and have a look how it works,

and I'll look forward to any questions you've got.

A pitch to tackle a national gripe.

Rotherham-based Karina Oldale believes her product helps planes,

trains and automobiles combat the effects of our icy British weather.

She needs £115,000 in return for a precise 17% share.

What's it doing? Just absorbing it?

It's absorbing it, and watch. Now it's gone darker,

what it'll start to do is start to penetrate down into the ice.

The product seems to have struck a chord with one Dragon at least.

Now, rock salt leaves a mess on my drive.

Yes.

What happens to this blue thing that I put down?

It doesn't stain, it doesn't leave a residue.

-Does it dissolve?

-Yeah.

So do you manufacture it?

We ship it in.

-From?

-China.

And does anybody own any particular intellectual rights on this?

The manufacturers.

How did you come across them?

Oh, on the internet.

I started talking to them, and eventually went out to see them.

So you found it yourself, when no-one else had.

Do you have the distribution rights?

Well, don't go...

I need to know more than...

What have you got?

Sole exclusive distribution for UK and Europe,

but I've got to hit a target within five years.

What's your target you've got to hit?

40,000 tonnes.

-Is that 40,000 tonnes over the term of the five years, or is it..?

-Any one year.

Just to save me a lot of time and headache trying to work it out,

what would that make your turnover?

About 10 or 11 million.

Right.

It's not often that an entrepreneur renders the Dragons speechless,

but Karina seems to have done just that.

It's Deborah Meaden who's first to recover.

So, what shape is the business in at the moment?

Right, first year, the turnover was 27,000.

I made a loss of 64,000.

OK.

Year two, 192,000, break even.

Year three, 923,000, with a profit of 203,000.

I can explain why there's such a big jump.

Year four...

No, I think you're talking about...

Projections. They are the projections.

OK. So, why do you think you're suddenly go from 192,000 to 923,000?

I've got a customer that I've been working with for two years,

who we've got to modify it slightly, and once it's modified,

their order is 130,000 tonnes.

Karina, what's the modification he wants?

What they do is they do a lot of freeze-thaw, freeze-thaw.

With rock salt, their product deteriorates.

They want something that deteriorates less.

-Who's working on the modification?

-China.

-OK. You say it's a family-run business?

-Yes.

Who's in the family running it?

My husband and my son.

But I'm the majority shareholder.

OK, so one more question.

Yeah.

I've forgotten what it is, but it's going to come back to me.

Do you know, it's so nice, because it makes you seem so normal.

A senior moment, you know?

Do you want me to ask some questions?

No, because my question will be gone and it'll come back

with you in mid-flow. But I'm starting to give up now.

It's not go to come back. It was a very good question!

Shall I ask, Duncan?

Go on.

Might cover it.

Oh, the question's come back. I've got it.

Karina.

Yes?

How much money have you and the rest of your family put into this?

£240,000.

£240,000?!

It's a revelation that shocks the Dragons.

However, the South Yorkshire businesswoman remains calm

and composed.

Now Peter Jones wants to delve deeper into the detail.

Karina, what did your husband say about the fact that you

spent 240,000 of the family money?

He actually said, "I'm very proud for what you've done, and what you've achieved."

Are you very rich, Karina, then?

No, we just graft. We're grafters.

This will happen,

because I can easily see it doing the projected figures.

What if it doesn't?

I've had a meeting this week with an international supermarket,

and it's 90% certain that they're actually going to go with it.

Who's the supermarket?

Tesco's.

And they're going to sell these pots?

And how much stock have you got in value?

265,000.

So you haven't spent 240,000 developing this business.

You've got stock.

-Yes.

-You just need to sell the stock.

-Yes.

Is that stock at cost, or at retail?

-No, that's at cost.

-What would you sell it for?

About 650.

There seems to be a game of cat and mouse in the Den, as the confident

entrepreneur drip-feeds information, but that's a risky strategy.

What will Deborah Meaden make of it all?

Can you give me an idea,

then, of the price of this compared to what they currently use?

If you put it side-by-side, this is a lot dearer,

but when you start working out the benefits,

it actually then becomes more commercially viable.

How much more expensive?

It might be double.

Can we go back to the supermarket?

You've had a meeting with them.

When you say 90% certain, why do you think that?

When I first started talking,

they actually said it would be for season 2014.

I've spoken to her quite a few times, and in the end,

I started bringing her up every fortnight,

and we started laughing about it, and she's actually seen us this week for

this next season, and she just said there's about 2,000 forms to fill in.

What's happened now? Have you had a letter of intent?

Have you had any...?

No, it's erm...

It was just some of the stuff that she said to us.

They were all the buying signals.

So, OK.

From where I sit, you are the eternal optimist.

No.

I don't feel as optimistic about it as you do.

I think you've got a tough slog to try, in these times, to sell to

somebody something that is twice as expensive as the thing that they're

currently buying, and they know works, so that's your challenge.

-So I won't be investing.

-Thanks for your time.

-So I'm out.

-Thank you.

The strategy backfires,

as the genial businesswoman fails to convince Deborah Meaden.

And Duncan Bannatyne looks to have made up his mind, too.

-Karina.

-Yeah?

Do you know what I think?

I think the Tesco woman said, "Oh, she's a lovely lady,

"I'll tell her there's 2,000 forms," because she wanted you to leave her office.

No.

Putting stepping stones, I don't think there's a big market for this,

I don't think there's big customers out there.

No, I don't agree, because we've actually got B&Q in Ireland.

How many have been ordered?

They were disappointed that they didn't sell more,

but they had no snow, but they sold about 2,000 tubs.

You know, I think you're just kidding yourself.

You've lost £300,000.

It's gone.

No, I'll sell it next winter.

OK. Well, you do that.

I will.

And I wish I was wrong and you were right.

-That's like a red rag to a bull.

-I can't invest in this.

OK.

I am out.

-Karina.

-Yes?

I think that you'd be able to sell

the ice that's to your left to Eskimos.

Thank you.

But I'm not sure you could sell the product that you've got to them.

I wish you the very best of luck, and I am pleased at least

you have an amount of stock that, at worst, if you were to sell,

you would get the money you've invested personally in this venture.

But if you don't get the bites this year,

don't be optimistic that next year is going to come the lucky order.

-I'm going to say that I'm out.

-OK, thank you for your time.

Intrigued they may be, but Karina is unable to close the deal with

two more Dragons, and she has just one last chance of success.

Karina, any way we can find to melt ice and snow quickly and safely

would be a massive advantage to industry,

business, householders, everybody.

But to actually maintain your license,

you've got to turn over £11 million.

Yeah.

40,000 tonnes in one year. It's a huge target.

Well, it is and it isn't.

If you get one of the airports,

they use anything up to 500,000 tonnes in a bad winter.

How many airports would you have to get?

Only one.

And I know you think I am very optimistic,

but I've been working on Europe, and Europe gets a lot more snow.

Right.

One of us is barking mad.

It's not me!

I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to offer you the full £115,000...

..but I believe it's going to take so much work...

I'm going to want 50% of the business.

I can't.

I can't.

I've been given a figure by my husband and my son.

And I just can't.

Unless we can negotiate.

What about if I hit the figures,

would you then give me a percentage back?

-This is a high-risk strategy for me.

-Yeah.

So I will want 50% of the business.

I can't, I really can't. I'd love to, but I can't.

Karina, I respect that.

But I'm afraid I'm going to have to say I'm out.

And I wish you luck, and I wish you prove Duncan wrong.

Watch this space.

It's a disappointing end. Plenty of Dragon plaudits,

but the risk-reward ratio was just too high to negotiate a better deal.

Karina leaves with nothing.

So it's been a real Den first. A four-Dragon day.

Fortunately, being a player down

doesn't seem to have affected the team.

If anything, we've seen more offers in one day than ever before.

Next week, normal Den service resumes,

as Hilary Devey returns to her rightful seat.

If you'd like to know more about what made Karina decline that

last-ditch offer from Theo Paphitis, press the red button now.

Goodbye.

Next week, in the Den.

It's just a boring pitch.

You've had more experience than most people have had in their lifetime!

I just think your valuation is off the wall.

And why are we here today, George?

For £75,000, and a bag of sweets.

You shouldn't spend any more time or money on this.

I can't tell you how much I think you've got this wrong.

You haven't just done well, I think you've done remarkably well.

You got paper?

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