Episode 7 Dragons' Den


Episode 7

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Transcript


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These are the Dragons,

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five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.

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Over the next six weeks,

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they'll make or break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

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I don't know what day you were born on but I wasn't born yesterday.

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Do your homework.

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No, you're not listening to me, and I buy this product.

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It is not a brand new concept.

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Sometimes you just lose investment because you screw it up

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and you just did.

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The multi-millionaire investors have each built up

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their fortunes from scratch.

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Retail magnate Theo Paphitis,

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hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne,

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leisure industry expert Deborah Meaden

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queen of logistics Hilary Devey

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and telecoms giant Peter Jones.

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The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment

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and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.

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Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs

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walk away with their money?

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Welcome back. These are testing times in the economy

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but that doesn't deter anyone here in the den.

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The Dragons are on their search for the best ideas,

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the ones that will succeed whatever the economy is doing.

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They are ruthless in that quest.

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This has always been a forum for the fearless.

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The Dragons are investing their own cash in the den

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so don't be surprised if they ask searching questions.

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How well will our first entrepreneur answer them?

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Hello. My name is Matt King and I am the inventor of WeQ4U.

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I'm pitching today for £150,000 investment

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in return for a 1% equity stake for my established profitable business.

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Sorry to interrupt you.

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Did I get it right, you said 150,000 for 1%?

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That's right, yes. My company specialises

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in helping people get through to busy call centres

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without having to wait on hold.

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I'm going to show you how we do that with one of our products,

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the WeQ4U app, which is available as a free download.

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To use it, you just open the app,

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enter the number you wish to reach and hit start call.

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PHONE RINGS

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'Remember, if you get stuck in a queue,

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'just press 9 star and we queue for you.'

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Now we're being put through to the call centre.

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'Thank you for calling. All of our agents are busy at the moment...'

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So now we're stuck in a queue. We just press 9 star.

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'Thank you for using WeQ4U.'

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Now we can end the call. There we go.

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Now we're waiting in the queue

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but your phone is no longer connected to the call.

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We are queuing for you and we'll be reconnected automatically

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when the agent answers.

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It's a real no-brainer for anybody to use.

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The WeQ4U app is not what we sell.

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What we sell is the business product

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that we sell to call centres

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and that's actually the main focus of our business because

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it generates substantial ongoing revenue streams for us.

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We already have several high street brand name customers.

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Last year, we sold over 1 million minutes of WeQ4U business

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to UK call centres alone.

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Thank you very much for listening to me today.

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A highly professional pitch from South Londoner Matt King.

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His technology combats the annoyance of lengthy waits on hold

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to customer call centres,

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but he's looking for an investment of £150,000

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in return for just 1% of the business.

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Hilary Devey needs more information.

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Matt, hi, I'm Hilary.

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Tell me about the company to date.

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We turned over £300,000 this year. Over 50% of that is profit.

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Don't go so fast. You turned over 300K this year.

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-What was the profit?

-The profit was £152,000.

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Is that net profit or gross profit?

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That's gross profit, we paid off all of our loans.

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Our net profit this year, I think it's around £40,000.

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What you're saying is,

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you've valued a company at £15 million

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that turned over 300,000 with a net profit of 40,000.

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Yes.

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How have you arrived at that valuation?

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Well, we're looking at the size of the market, really.

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According to the Department of Trade and Industry, the UK market...

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You can't...!

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Are you for real?

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A focus on the valuation and not the new technology

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is not an ideal start for any entrepreneur.

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How will Matt fare under interrogation from Duncan Bannatyne?

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Matt, can you explain to me how the Department of Trade and Industry

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evaluated the market for people who want to buy an app?

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Sure. There was a recent study by the Department of Trade and Industry

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that found there were 6,200 call centres in the UK

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with 10 or more staff taking or making calls.

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66% of those are inbound positions

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and the average agent salary is £15,000 a year.

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The average reported answer rate at the call centres is 95%.

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I don't know what any of that's got to do with my question.

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I am answering your question, I'm explaining how I get there.

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Today.

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If you multiply that, that means the current spending

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on answering inbound calls is £13.7 billion a year.

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That means the 5% of abandoned calls, by the same logic,

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are worth at least £700 million...

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This is a complete wind-up. Why are you here?

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This is not a wind-up.

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Of course it is, you're a sensible guy,

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you're not delusional, you're trying to have a bit of fun.

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The fun is about to backfire very seriously

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and you're about to go up those stairs faster than you came in.

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Why on earth would you come in here and try and suggest

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that a business that is making diddly squat is worth 15 million

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-when you have a technology that isn't proprietary?

-It is.

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-No, it's not.

-Can you ask him the question he hasn't answered,

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like does the call centre need to have the software on

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for the app to work? Yes or no?

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This cannot be answered with a yes or no answer.

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The app is distinct from the WeQ4U business solution.

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If they have the business solution,

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nobody needs the app to get through without waiting.

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That's the answer.

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Matt, you have created something that you are selling into a market

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and you're making a bit of profit.

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So far, so good.

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The trouble is, what you have told me in coming in

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and asking for £150,000 for 1%

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is that you might be bordering on the arrogant.

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OK.

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I have to tell you, I can absolutely guarantee

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you're going to cite all of those big social networking sites

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that started in somebody's garage,

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and because of the size of the market, look at it now.

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I'm sorry, but at that stage in their early days,

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they were not valuing their business at 15 million.

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Unless you can tell me in 30 seconds flat why you think it's OK

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to come in and ask for 1% for 150,000,

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I am absolutely as quick as anything going out.

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OK, I'm going to start with that then.

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Really, a business is worth what people are prepared to pay for it

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and what the vendor's prepared to accept for it.

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That's the reality of the situation I'm sure we're all aware of.

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That's 10 of your seconds.

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I am going to use the Facebook example

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because their valuation of 104 billion based on just...

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Having told you that I'm not accepting that,

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you've got 10 seconds to come up

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with something other than the same old, same old.

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This is a unique product in the marketplace,

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the best product in the marketplace at solving this problem,

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which costs call centres a huge amount of money every day.

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I have to tell you, this is disappointing.

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You are smart, you've got a product that works.

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If you'd come in here with a sensible valuation

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asking for a sensible sum of money,

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I bet you I would have invested in you.

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I'm sorry, for all of the reasons I've just talked about, I'm out.

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Thank you, Deborah.

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A first and early blow for the confident entrepreneur.

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There are still four Dragons left.

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Will Theo Paphitis be more forgiving?

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Matt, what's your background?

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I've been programming computers since I was seven years old.

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I hold a double first class degree in physics from Keble College, Oxford,

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and a lot of the maths from that has gone into the product.

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I've worked for IBM and Logica

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and spent five years in San Francisco learning how to do Silicon Valley start-ups.

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Silicon Valley start-ups?

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My view is your whole business plan is flawed.

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First of all, any business who has a call centre

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that takes so long to answer is disgusting.

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The first thing they should be doing

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is being encouraged to sort themselves out.

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Simple as that. It is so far off humanity's radar...

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I don't want to listen to any more of this

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because we have the same views on how the call centres are.

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I've done this as a disgruntled customer.

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-What are you doing to make it better?

-I'm complaining,

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and I think everyone should stop using them.

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When they lose their customers, they will give proper customer service.

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-Well...

-I'm talking. That's what should happen.

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I can't invest so I'm out.

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A tetchy exchange of opinion

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and one that results in the loss of another Dragon.

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The bad news for Matt is that it doesn't look like Peter Jones

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is ready to let him off the hook either.

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Matt, you're an intelligent guy

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but do you understand the alienation as a result of what you've done?

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I don't think it has anything to do

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with the thing you're trying to describe to us.

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I think it has a lot to do with the credibility of you

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trying to come in here on a wing and a prayer

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and suggest that you have a business that is worth 15 million.

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To come in with the offer that you've put across today

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is bordering on insulting.

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That is why I'm going to tell you that I'm out.

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OK.

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-Matt.

-Yes.

-One of the things call centres are doing now

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is trying to encourage emails rather than telephone calls.

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Yes, there are some companies that are starting to do that

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and in fact some are even closing customer service lines

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and saying it is all email now.

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People are feeling very disenfranchised by that sort of operation.

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The point is if you make a telephone call,

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you're sat there listening to the phone ringing,

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but if you send an email, you're at your desk,

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when email comes in, it comes back in.

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Yes, we bring that to phone calls.

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I think that will prevent your business

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expanding at a rate that it will be worth £15 million in my lifetime.

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We're just looking...

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For that reason, I'm going to say I'm out.

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Thank you very much.

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Matt, I'm much younger than Duncan, actually.

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I couldn't see a return in my lifetime either.

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In fact, I couldn't even see a return in my son's lifetime.

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-Would you like me to demo the business version?

-No, I wouldn't.

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What happens to the call centres

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that say all our operators are busy at the moment,

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they've actually clocked your number, one, two, three, four, five,

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we will return your call within one hour.

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What's wrong with that?

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When you're making one of these call-backs,

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you're actually taking an agent off taking those inbound calls.

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Let's say you've got 10 agents, somebody requests a call-back,

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in the next cycle, you've got nine agents...

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No, you've not, it's automated.

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..and one person making outbound calls.

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Your inbound queue is getting longer

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because you have fewer agents taking the inbound calls.

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-Pretty soon you find...

-Have you ever run a call centre?

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Pretty soon you find you're an outbound call centre.

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Did anybody ever tell you God gave you two of these and one of those?

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-I believe that's the first time.

-I'm telling you now.

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Also, please use them wisely.

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Would you like me to finish explaining what the problem is?

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Not really, no. There are systems out there that will log your number,

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log your call and an operator will return.

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-The feedback we've had...

-They are automated.

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-Not only are they...

-Those that have used...

-Will you shut up?

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Matt, I'm out also.

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-Thank you for taking the time to

-almost

-listen to me today.

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Matt may have defended his business valiantly

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but it was the value he placed on it

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that seemed to incense the Dragon investors.

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He leaves with nothing.

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It takes a brave person to pitch to these Dragons

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but each year thousands apply to do just that.

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TV stuntman Martin Shenton is well versed in the world of risk

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as he showed off his scary take on the paintball experience.

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Imagine you were watching somebody playing a video game.

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Suddenly, you are now playing for real.

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ZOMBIE MOANING

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GUNSHOTS

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Martin was on safe ground explaining his live action game concept.

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Blue Green Yellow Dead Live

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is a live interactive shooting maze zombie game.

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You go in to the game itself, you find three coloured vials

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and you get out in the quickest time possible.

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The amount of money he wanted proved a step too far.

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Martin, I'm going to give you one chance to justify

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a quarter of a million pounds.

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For starters, for your money,

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you'd be getting three games for the first three months.

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Sorry, the first game in the three months.

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We're going to do 11 games, which will be 12 games in total,

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over a five-year period.

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What on earth makes you think that what you've got is worth £250,000?

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You need a reality check.

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The Dragons are used to taking risks too

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but not without a solid business plan in place.

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If I was pitching to you

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with a block of wood and a bloke running round with a zombie hat on

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and did a little forward roll

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and said, "Martin, I want £250,000 from you for that."

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I understand where you're coming from.

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There's no way I can get over to you how the game works...

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I got the game as soon as you came in, quite liked it actually.

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It's not going to be an investment I could see making money

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so, Martin, for that reason I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

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Often, the question for an entrepreneur entering the den

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is not can their business make money

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but can it make enough money to sustain a Dragon's investment?

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Next up, 25-year-old Umer Ashraf

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who thinks he has just the thing with an existing business

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he hopes can flourish as a franchise.

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My name is Umer Ashraf and I'm from a company called iCafe in Glasgow.

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We are quirky yet stylish coffee houses and internet cafes.

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Today, I'm here to raise £80,000 to help me launch our fourth unit

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which will be our flagship store.

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In return, I'd like to offer 30% of the overall business.

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Over the last three years, we've won many awards.

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In 2011, we increased our turnover to £548,000.

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I also started on a franchise package which we're halfway through

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so with your help today and my energy, enthusiasm and passion,

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I would like to take iCafe to a new level.

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Thank you very much for listening to me.

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Would anyone like to try some of our products or perhaps a coffee?

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-I'd like to try a coffee.

-Sure.

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Coffee and cake.

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27-year-old Glaswegian Umer Ashraf clearly aims to tempt the Dragons

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into investing in his independent cafe chain.

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He needs £80,000 to help fund both his flagship store

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and franchise plans in return for a 30% stake of the company.

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Such a good brownie.

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Theo Paphitis is first to question the hospitable businessman.

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Umer, it all looks very good. Tell me how it started.

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I've always loved business since I was very young.

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My parents tell stories,

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I was eight years old selling friendship bands in school

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and had an online business aged 14 selling mobile phone accessories.

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Eventually, an opportunity came up and I was approached by a big company

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who were interested in a domain name and they offered me £250.

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I was going through my standard grades at the time

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wanting to see what university I want to apply to and everything else.

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The bottom line is you flogged it.

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You don't have to milk this, we can actually get to it.

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I ended up selling that for £18,500.

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iCafe actually was my final year university project.

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I had to come up with a business plan and once I graduated,

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I went over to the bank and said, "I would like to open this."

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"Have you got a site?" I said, "I do."

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-You started when?

-2005, I started.

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In 2006, I looked at another unit.

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2006 was the second one.

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The third unit opened in 2010.

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The third one has a coffee-to-go at the front

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and a central kitchen at the back. It is actually a support unit.

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Umer, It's just a coffee shop, isn't it?

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Coffee houses, yeah.

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Is there anything special about this coffee shop?

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I'm losing the will to live.

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I'm sorry, I'm going to ask a few questions,

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then you can lose the will to live personally with him.

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This year, you're going to turn over what?

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£596,000.

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Profit will be 70 and I'm wanting to franchise it out

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-and that's what I'm here for.

-Thank you. Fantastic.

0:20:130:20:16

Verbose or just nervous?

0:20:190:20:22

Umer's certainly made an impression in the den

0:20:220:20:24

but it looks like Peter Jones is eager to get straight to the point.

0:20:240:20:27

You've got three units at the moment.

0:20:310:20:33

-Each, let's say, makes about £20,000 a year profit. Is that fair?

-Yes.

0:20:330:20:40

Now you want to take that model and turn it into a franchise.

0:20:410:20:45

I'm a franchisee now,

0:20:470:20:48

what do I have to pay you to open up that coffee bar?

0:20:480:20:50

It will cost a total of 109,500.

0:20:500:20:56

That's great, so for 110,000,

0:20:560:20:59

I get from you a business that can make 20,000 a year.

0:20:590:21:03

I don't know what day you were born on but I wasn't born yesterday.

0:21:030:21:08

That's not a very attractive offer.

0:21:080:21:12

I agree with you absolutely 100% but what I'd like to say

0:21:130:21:16

is people wanting to open up a cafe on their own probably make a loss.

0:21:160:21:23

You're not getting the point, it's not a good deal.

0:21:230:21:26

Umer, I don't know why you're agreeing with Peter

0:21:300:21:32

when Peter says the shop only makes 20,000.

0:21:320:21:35

You've two shops and your projection this year, 70,000.

0:21:360:21:40

-70,000 between two shops is 35,000.

-Three shops.

0:21:400:21:44

No, two shops. The third shop is not a shop.

0:21:440:21:48

The third shop is a little takeaway and a distribution depot

0:21:480:21:52

so you've got to take that out.

0:21:520:21:54

The third unit made around 1,600.

0:21:540:21:58

Practically nothing.

0:21:580:21:59

Do you seriously think anyone would pay you £110,000

0:22:020:22:06

to buy one of your franchises?

0:22:060:22:08

Two guys have been very interested in doing so

0:22:080:22:11

and based on the first year, they would make £35,000.

0:22:110:22:16

Not for the first time, the rival investors are divided

0:22:190:22:23

about the attractiveness of the proposal on offer.

0:22:230:22:27

Can Deborah Meaden make sense of it all?

0:22:270:22:30

-Hello, I am Deborah.

-Hi, Deborah.

0:22:310:22:33

Who are these people with £100,000 to spare?

0:22:330:22:35

OK, one of them is a manager for an electronics...

0:22:350:22:40

How much do you think he's earning, because presumably he's got £100,000 in the bank?

0:22:400:22:45

We haven't got to that stage.

0:22:450:22:46

Do you think he's possibly earning more than, maybe, £30,000 per year?

0:22:460:22:50

I wouldn't know that, Deborah, because...

0:22:500:22:53

Well, if he IS earning £30,000 per year,

0:22:530:22:56

you're offering them the opportunity

0:22:560:22:58

to give up their secure job, give YOU £100,000

0:22:580:23:03

to put it into a risky franchise for the ability to earn

0:23:030:23:06

slightly more than they're earning at the moment.

0:23:060:23:09

When I put it to you like that, does that sound like a good proposition?

0:23:090:23:12

OK, but parts of that I don't agree with,

0:23:120:23:15

because franchisee would be requiring only funds

0:23:150:23:20

of around £40,000, the rest is through loan bar as leasing and...

0:23:200:23:24

All right. Say £40,000 in the bank.

0:23:240:23:26

You've got to think, "Who's this person who's going to take my franchise?"

0:23:260:23:30

-I don't know, Deborah, because...

-But you need to!

0:23:300:23:33

Because that's your market! You need to imagine that person.

0:23:330:23:36

-At the moment, I'm struggling.

-OK.

0:23:360:23:38

I feel that I have to defend, really, my position here.

0:23:380:23:43

I've worked very hard to standardise all the systems for iCafe.

0:23:430:23:46

But our franchise pack is not ready,

0:23:460:23:48

-so I can't serve a half-cooked dish.

-Umer.

0:23:480:23:51

I truly believe it will go forward but...

0:23:510:23:55

The truth is, you've got to think why would people do this?

0:23:550:23:59

Who is that person? Where do I find them? What I sense

0:23:590:24:03

is that you are quite busy batting off the questions,

0:24:030:24:06

but not listening. I won't be investing,

0:24:060:24:10

so I'm out.

0:24:100:24:13

It's the first blow for the passionate entrepreneur as his franchise model

0:24:150:24:19

receives short shrift from Deborah Meaden.

0:24:190:24:22

Will Theo Paphitis take a different view?

0:24:220:24:25

Umer.

0:24:260:24:28

You've come in here with a model

0:24:280:24:31

as to whether you run a franchise, whether you're going to open stores,

0:24:310:24:36

you haven't come in here with a business plan.

0:24:360:24:39

That is why at the moment, you are uninvestable.

0:24:400:24:44

-So, I'm out.

-Thank you, Theo.

0:24:460:24:50

Umer, you've done incredibly well

0:24:500:24:53

to create a business that makes money.

0:24:530:24:56

But what you have done is you've stepped out of reality

0:24:570:25:00

into a world of complete and utter fiction when it comes to business.

0:25:000:25:06

You have no business that can possibly be franchised.

0:25:080:25:13

This is totally uninvestable and I'm out.

0:25:130:25:17

Thank you, Peter.

0:25:170:25:20

-Right, may I speak?

-Absolutely.

0:25:230:25:25

And if I do so, will you listen?

0:25:250:25:28

-You're the boss, you guys are the boss.

-Right.

0:25:280:25:31

To franchise something you've got to have a USP,

0:25:310:25:35

you've got to have intellectual property to something

0:25:350:25:39

and you've got to have testimonials that what you've got makes money

0:25:390:25:45

and is temptation to somebody looking for investment.

0:25:450:25:48

-Absolutely.

-But you're not demonstrating that.

0:25:480:25:52

Umer, I couldn't work with you.

0:25:550:25:57

But that doesn't mean that I don't respect you

0:25:580:26:01

for what you have achieved, because I do.

0:26:010:26:03

I can't invest, so I got to say, I'm out.

0:26:030:26:08

Strong words from the three Dragons.

0:26:100:26:13

Now, only Duncan Bannatyne

0:26:130:26:15

can save Umer from complete disaster in the den...

0:26:150:26:20

OK, now I don't totally agree with Hilary.

0:26:200:26:23

I've got a very successful franchise company that doesn't have all the things that she said.

0:26:230:26:29

But you said you couldn't sell a franchise

0:26:300:26:34

because you couldn't sell a half-cooked dinner.

0:26:340:26:37

-But you've got a cooked dinner.

-Yeah.

0:26:370:26:39

-You've got two cooked dinners.

-Yeah.

0:26:390:26:42

Why don't you try and sell one of your existing coffee shops

0:26:420:26:46

-as a franchise?

-Cash flow, Duncan,

0:26:460:26:49

because straightaway my cash flow would go from 100 percent,

0:26:490:26:53

down to 6 percent.

0:26:530:26:55

No, it won't. Because, the day you sell it, you'll open your new shop.

0:26:550:27:01

So you could have your new shop lined up and ready to open,

0:27:010:27:04

sell the franchise in your existing shop, and then open your new shop.

0:27:040:27:08

-With the track record of...

-The one you're selling, you've got track record.

0:27:080:27:12

And you would prove to yourself, then, whether or not someone

0:27:120:27:15

was willing to pay that money to buy the franchise.

0:27:150:27:18

Very good advice. Thank you, Duncan.

0:27:240:27:27

Well, you got a business.

0:27:340:27:36

-And you got a business making a profit at £49,000.

-Yes.

0:27:360:27:39

-Was that before you took wages out?

-No, no, no. After my wages.

0:27:390:27:42

After you took your wages out?

0:27:420:27:44

I take out £27,500 a year.

0:27:440:27:49

I've got to make you an offer.

0:27:530:27:55

I think you'd have to promise me that you would talk a lot less.

0:28:040:28:08

Yes, I will try my utmost best.

0:28:080:28:11

I want 49% of the company.

0:28:120:28:15

For £80,000.

0:28:150:28:16

It is not negotiable.

0:28:220:28:24

Er... Can I take a minute?

0:28:310:28:32

I would like to very much accept your offer, Duncan.

0:28:510:28:55

-APPLAUSE

-Good luck.

-Thank you very much.

0:28:550:28:57

Umer's done it.

0:28:570:28:59

We're going to do well. We're going to make a little fortune, you and I.

0:28:590:29:02

It only takes one Dragon investor to buy into your dreams,

0:29:020:29:05

and he now has an experienced multimillionaire business partner.

0:29:050:29:09

Each year, a number of products aimed at children are pitched

0:29:180:29:21

to the Dragons, with some notable successes.

0:29:210:29:23

Samantha Spake and Vanessa Harris from Cornwall were the latest

0:29:230:29:27

to appeal to that market with their wooden toy business.

0:29:270:29:30

Our first product is the rocker.

0:29:340:29:37

A multifunctional wooden toy based on a Cornish fishing boat.

0:29:370:29:40

The rocker can also become a play table with two seats, or a bridge.

0:29:400:29:44

Then, on its side, it can become a play kitchen or a grand theatre.

0:29:440:29:49

The product's versatility initially met with approval.

0:29:500:29:54

They look fantastic. The question, of course,

0:29:540:29:57

is how much will you sell it to me for?

0:29:570:29:58

£250 for the main pack, £95 for the kitchen accessory pack,

0:29:580:30:02

and £49 for the theatre accessory pack.

0:30:020:30:05

But the costs raised a number of Dragon eyebrows.

0:30:050:30:08

I love the design, I think you've got a problem with the price.

0:30:090:30:13

You should perhaps look at moulded recyclable plastic

0:30:130:30:17

rather than wood, so I'd go back to the drawing board.

0:30:170:30:20

It's a wooden toy company! That's what they do!

0:30:200:30:24

Not necessarily.

0:30:240:30:25

With all due respect, Theo, Hilary is entitled to her opinion.

0:30:250:30:27

In the end, Samantha and Vanessa were unable to escape that high retail price.

0:30:290:30:33

You don't need to go back to your drawing board with the design,

0:30:330:30:36

but you do with how you're going to sell it. And you've got to cut your margins.

0:30:360:30:39

It won't work. You need to come down in price.

0:30:390:30:41

I bet you when that's flat-packed,

0:30:410:30:43

it does not look 250 quid's worth of product.

0:30:430:30:46

I can see why somebody would want to buy it,

0:30:460:30:48

but you've got to hit the price point.

0:30:480:30:49

I won't be investing. So I'm out.

0:30:490:30:52

-Thank you. -Thank you.

0:30:520:30:53

So far tonight,

0:30:540:30:56

only one entrepreneur has managed to secure the investment of a Dragon.

0:30:560:31:00

We're going to do well. We're going to make a little fortune, you and I.

0:31:000:31:03

To find out why Umer decided to accept Duncan Bannatyne's offer,

0:31:030:31:07

press the red button at the end of the programme.

0:31:070:31:10

As a professional toastmaster, Colin Bruton is used to speaking to lots of people,

0:31:120:31:18

but the Dragons are a different proposition.

0:31:180:31:21

And Colin has certainly got a different proposition for them today.

0:31:210:31:24

Hello.

0:31:290:31:31

Hello there.

0:31:410:31:43

My name's Colin Bruton, and I'm the proud owner of Fellas Products Ltd.

0:31:430:31:47

I am here today to ask for £60,000 for 20% of my business.

0:31:470:31:53

Fellas is a British male grooming brand.

0:31:540:31:57

My launch product was Fellas Wipes.

0:31:570:32:01

They are intimate cleansing wipes for men.

0:32:020:32:05

They are just a nice way of guys helping to keep their anatomy clean throughout the day.

0:32:050:32:09

That's right, gentlemen - they are for your bits and pieces,

0:32:090:32:12

but ladies, fear not - there will be no live demonstrations today.

0:32:120:32:16

They are individually wrapped, free from alcohol

0:32:220:32:26

and all artificial fragrances.

0:32:260:32:27

I'm selling via my website around the world,

0:32:290:32:33

and I think the investment will be good for any Dragon,

0:32:330:32:36

and I'll hopefully give you a return of 750,000 over the next five years.

0:32:360:32:41

Thank you very much for your time. Any questions, please?

0:32:420:32:45

-Can I have a look at pack, please?

-Of course you can, yes.

0:32:450:32:48

If I give you three, and pass them down.

0:32:510:32:53

A rather awkward pitch, for a number of reasons,

0:32:530:32:57

from Staffordshire-based Colin Bruton.

0:32:570:32:59

He needs £60,000 to fund his expansion plans for his male toiletry business.

0:32:590:33:03

It's an interesting one for Deborah Meaden.

0:33:040:33:06

Hello, Colin. I didn't wake up this morning expecting to be

0:33:090:33:12

talking about gentlemen's intimate wipes.

0:33:120:33:16

-It's interesting, isn't it?

-Erm, yes. Let's talk about the business model.

0:33:160:33:21

What are you turning over at the moment?

0:33:210:33:22

I've been trading 11 months, and I've turned over £4,000.

0:33:220:33:26

OK, and how much have you lost in that 11 months?

0:33:260:33:30

I've put in £30,000 of my own money, and £20,000 of a loan.

0:33:300:33:36

-And do have any cash at the moment?

-Yes, I do. About £1,500.

0:33:360:33:40

OK, so, is there anything in the product itself that is proprietary?

0:33:400:33:45

No, I'm not asking... I'm asking a technical question, now.

0:33:450:33:47

-Sure.

-Not what does it look like.

-OK.

0:33:470:33:49

I'm asking you, is there something unique about the product itself?

0:33:490:33:53

It's my own formula, which is a Chilean soap bark extract.

0:33:530:33:58

OK, but is there anything you could protect in that, or is that just a readily...

0:33:580:34:02

I can't protect it. The only thing I can protect is the branding,

0:34:020:34:04

-which is what I've done throughout the EU.

-OK.

0:34:040:34:06

Colin has clearly thought about protecting the product,

0:34:100:34:13

but what of the man behind the concept?

0:34:130:34:16

Theo Paphitis wants to know.

0:34:160:34:18

I'm Theo.

0:34:200:34:21

-Who's Colin?

-Who's Colin?

-Yeah.

0:34:220:34:25

I left school I was 16.

0:34:260:34:28

I joined the Royal Navy, unfortunately it didn't work out for me.

0:34:280:34:32

I actually got a medical discharge.

0:34:320:34:34

-OK.

-I set up my first company in 1997. I sold that in 2000.

0:34:340:34:41

I had an idea for some wipes,

0:34:410:34:45

and sold my house and used the money

0:34:450:34:51

to invest in Fellas.

0:34:510:34:53

Who else is out there competing in this market?

0:34:530:34:56

Wingman is one company, but they are a different wipe.

0:34:560:34:59

Colin, can I disagree with you? Because I do know the product.

0:34:590:35:02

They look very similar. What's their turnover?

0:35:020:35:04

I don't know. I don't know that.

0:35:040:35:06

But they don't... I don't see them as a competitor.

0:35:060:35:09

So, you felt there was enough market for both of you?

0:35:090:35:12

-Yes.

-But you don't know how well they're doing,

0:35:120:35:14

whether they've found a market, whether they're successful,

0:35:140:35:17

or they're not successful, or there's no market at all.

0:35:170:35:20

I've gained far too much interest for there not to be market.

0:35:220:35:24

-With all due respect, you've turned over £4,000.

-I understand that.

0:35:240:35:28

-That's not a lot of interest.

-I know it's not, but I see my biggest market is actually the States.

0:35:280:35:34

-OK.

-I'm just about to sign a deal for the...

0:35:340:35:39

Two guys in Florida to actually...

0:35:390:35:44

Their initial order of 23,000.

0:35:440:35:48

The uncomfortable atmosphere shows no sign of abating,

0:35:520:35:55

but will the revelation of a sizeable order change all that?

0:35:550:35:59

Duncan Bannatyne has something on his mind.

0:35:590:36:02

Colin, earlier this year I spent a week living in a tent on a mountain

0:36:040:36:08

where there was no showers, and we washed ourselves

0:36:080:36:11

-using the same wipes you use on a baby.

-Mmm.

0:36:110:36:15

But, you know, I tell you, very difficult to use these

0:36:150:36:18

when every time you use them you have to open them individually.

0:36:180:36:22

So, I want you to tell me where the customer is who needs

0:36:220:36:26

an individually wrapped one of these to use in a specific situation.

0:36:260:36:31

I have truck drivers who buy them from me who say they use them when they've been driving.

0:36:310:36:36

-So, the truck driver...

-I have...

-Wait a minute, Colin.

0:36:360:36:39

-The truck driver is in his truck.

-I have...

-Wait a minute, let me...

0:36:390:36:42

He can use, in his truck, some of the big bags.

0:36:420:36:45

He doesn't have to have a single one.

0:36:450:36:48

-The whole idea is that they are mobile.

-You see, Colin...

0:36:480:36:50

-Gentlemen...

-Colin, Colin. Let me tell you something.

0:36:500:36:52

Let me tell you something.

0:36:520:36:54

When you sell a product,

0:36:540:36:57

you have to listen to the customer who's going to buy the product.

0:36:570:37:00

-Exactly.

-Now, you're not listening to me, and I buy this product.

0:37:000:37:04

Colin, why on earth did you sell your house without

0:37:070:37:11

studying the market, studying what market share you could gain?

0:37:110:37:16

I don't understand.

0:37:160:37:18

You might as well have taken that money and ripped it up.

0:37:180:37:20

No, I don't think so at all.

0:37:200:37:22

From the really positive conversations I'm having,

0:37:220:37:25

I think, you know, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get this order.

0:37:250:37:28

I've got, you know, e-mails to prove that the order is going to come through from the States.

0:37:280:37:33

I've launched a brand-new brand, and a brand-new concept, so I understand...

0:37:330:37:38

It is NOT a brand-new concept.

0:37:380:37:40

I were using baby wipes on my son's bits and bobs 25 years ago.

0:37:400:37:44

For...

0:37:440:37:46

I'm sorry, I disagree. I just disagree.

0:37:500:37:52

-Because they are, there are...

-All I can say, Colin, is...

0:37:520:37:55

-Yeah, but how do you carry, how does a man...

-Oh, Colin.

0:37:550:37:58

..a young man carry a bag of baby wipes around with him?

0:37:580:38:02

I've got to say, you look very presentable,

0:38:020:38:05

I think your brand is brilliant. Good brand name.

0:38:050:38:08

But you clearly have done no research on this market.

0:38:080:38:12

I'm out.

0:38:140:38:16

Perhaps inevitably, Colin receives a first blow to his investment dreams.

0:38:190:38:24

And it doesn't look like his luck is going to change with Peter Jones.

0:38:240:38:27

Colin, I think if you manage to get the order,

0:38:310:38:34

and you get potential orders after that,

0:38:340:38:37

it doesn't necessarily make it a business that is investable.

0:38:370:38:42

And I'm wishing and hoping that you don't get that order,

0:38:440:38:48

because I think it's going to make you think that you're onto something.

0:38:480:38:52

And from Theo's questioning, I'm sitting here thinking

0:38:530:38:57

you're probably too late to market,

0:38:570:38:59

because your first move or advantage has been taken away from you.

0:38:590:39:03

I'm sorry, I disagree.

0:39:030:39:04

That's why it makes it a totally uninvestable opportunity.

0:39:060:39:09

-And that's why I'm out.

-OK.

0:39:130:39:14

You know, sometimes people find it hard to start a business.

0:39:170:39:20

But something that is much, much harder is to admit to yourself that you've made a huge mistake.

0:39:200:39:27

The product doesn't sell, it won't sell, and only you are preventing yourself

0:39:270:39:32

from moving on to do something else, and you've got to really do that.

0:39:320:39:36

I'm sorry, but this is not a product that's going to make any money.

0:39:360:39:40

So I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

0:39:400:39:43

Two more Dragons out, and despite Colin's fervent belief in his product,

0:39:440:39:48

he can't seem to get that across to the experienced investors.

0:39:480:39:53

Will Deborah Meaden be more understanding?

0:39:530:39:56

I would like you to do one thing for me.

0:39:560:39:59

I would like you to absolutely promise me that if this order

0:39:590:40:04

-does not come through, you will seriously consider stopping this business.

-Yeah, yeah.

0:40:040:40:09

I appreciate that. And I do understand.

0:40:110:40:13

And I understand that you are saying it for genuine reasons.

0:40:130:40:16

-I won't be investing.

-I understand.

-So, I'm out.

0:40:160:40:19

Let me just tell you, rule one in starting a business is,

0:40:210:40:26

do your homework.

0:40:260:40:28

Understand the market.

0:40:280:40:31

50 percent of all new start-ups fail incredibly quickly

0:40:310:40:37

because people, and I use the word carefully, are delusional.

0:40:370:40:42

You need to stop and listen.

0:40:430:40:48

You're not investable, this is not something I can invest in,

0:40:480:40:51

so I'm going to help you out by saying, I'm out.

0:40:510:40:55

OK.

0:40:550:40:56

Thank you all for your time. Thank you.

0:40:590:41:03

It's a case of tough love for Colin. He got no cash,

0:41:030:41:07

but he did receive some genuine words of warning from the Dragons.

0:41:070:41:10

He leaves with nothing.

0:41:100:41:12

Others who tried and failed in the Den included Joanna and Dean Barnes,

0:41:180:41:23

from Surrey, who had an innovative solution to a common DIY problem.

0:41:230:41:26

The Daddy is a dust and debris eliminator.

0:41:270:41:31

As you can see, all the dust has been forced to the base.

0:41:330:41:37

Dean will now demonstrate what happens

0:41:370:41:40

when you don't use the product.

0:41:400:41:44

You've just ruined a perfectly good suit, Dean!

0:41:450:41:48

Before even getting down to business,

0:41:490:41:51

the couple's invention caused some disagreement in the den.

0:41:510:41:55

It can't work on walls. You're just going to drop straight down.

0:41:550:41:58

-You're talking rubbish.

-Dean, tell me if I'm right, Dean.

0:41:580:42:02

You can use it on a fixing for a wall. It would work, to a fashion.

0:42:020:42:05

The dust would just drop down.

0:42:050:42:08

If you sealed it against the wall, it would work.

0:42:080:42:11

The den's DIY expert may have backed the product,

0:42:110:42:14

but that's not the same as backing the business.

0:42:140:42:16

-How many have you sold to retailers?

-We have sold 17,000 units.

0:42:180:42:23

Yeah, what would the net profits be?

0:42:230:42:24

-£28,000.

-Are these figures before you take salaries?

-Yes.

0:42:240:42:28

I think it's a really good product,

0:42:280:42:31

but it's just such a small business,

0:42:310:42:34

it can't take an investment at the moment,

0:42:340:42:36

-so I've got to say, I'm out.

-Thank you.

0:42:360:42:39

Next in was darts fan, Barry Steptoe,

0:42:390:42:42

who thought he had solved a problem of a very different kind.

0:42:420:42:45

The oche is the place a person stands when they're throwing darts,

0:42:470:42:50

and I have basically invented the first foldaway, solid, portable oche.

0:42:500:42:56

-Can I have one quick go?

-Sure.

0:42:560:42:59

No treble top for Peter Jones, but Barry did hit the bull's-eye

0:43:050:43:09

when it came to his approach to business.

0:43:090:43:12

Barry, how much have you actually invested so far?

0:43:120:43:15

-A couple of hundred pounds to get it going.

-Tell me about the patent.

0:43:150:43:18

I did that myself.

0:43:180:43:19

-DIY job?

-Yeah.

-How much did that cost you?

-£242.

0:43:190:43:23

It was complicated, but if you put your mind to it, it can be done.

0:43:230:43:27

Well, I have to tell you, I think that's fantastic,

0:43:270:43:30

I hope it sends a message,

0:43:300:43:31

that we can save millions of pounds on patent lawyers

0:43:310:43:34

all around the world. Great!

0:43:340:43:37

In the end, Barry charmed the Dragons,

0:43:370:43:40

but he couldn't convince them to part with their cash.

0:43:400:43:43

I was brought up in a pub, and they used to have the

0:43:430:43:46

rubber strips actually nailed into the floor.

0:43:460:43:49

To be honest, that was adequate.

0:43:490:43:51

Valuing what you've got at half million pounds,

0:43:510:43:54

I'd want it to come with the pub that your product is in.

0:43:540:43:57

What a great little cottage industry, and good luck to you,

0:43:570:44:01

-but I'm not going to invest, and I'm saying, I'm out.

-Thank you.

0:44:010:44:03

When approaching investors, it's crucial to offer them

0:44:070:44:10

a big enough slice of a business to get them excited,

0:44:100:44:13

while at the same time, keeping enough back for yourself.

0:44:130:44:16

It's a tricky balance, one that online entrepreneur

0:44:160:44:19

Ben Hardyment hopes he's got right as he faces the Dragons.

0:44:190:44:23

My name is Ben Hardyment and I'm here today looking for £250,000 worth

0:44:530:44:58

of investment in return for a 7.5 percent equity stake in my company.

0:44:580:45:03

Zapper is a website where you can enter barcodes

0:45:030:45:05

from the backs of books, CDs, DVDs and computer games,

0:45:050:45:10

in return for instant cash valuations.

0:45:100:45:13

Once you're happy, you would simply complete the trade,

0:45:130:45:16

and then we would post you your cheque.

0:45:160:45:19

Since our launch in November 2011, we have grown to over 5,000 customers,

0:45:190:45:24

and currently enjoy monthly revenues in the region of £150,000.

0:45:240:45:30

I've brought here today 58 items,

0:45:300:45:33

and the onward retail value of these goods is approximately £250,

0:45:330:45:39

but we would pay the customer approximately £40 for them.

0:45:390:45:43

And inherent in these is a net profit in the region of £20.

0:45:430:45:48

Erm, so I would now invite your questions.

0:45:490:45:53

Thank you for listening to my pitch.

0:45:530:45:55

A somewhat sober pitch from Ben Hardyment,

0:45:590:46:02

whose website offers the chance to sell your unwanted CDs,

0:46:020:46:05

books and video games for a share of the profits.

0:46:050:46:09

He needs a sizeable

0:46:090:46:10

cash injection of a quarter of a million pounds

0:46:100:46:13

for a rather precise 7.5 percent of the company.

0:46:130:46:17

Duncan Bannatyne is first to question the ambitious entrepreneur.

0:46:180:46:22

I want to talk about the business.

0:46:240:46:26

I did a quick calculation, £250,000 for a 7.5 percent,

0:46:260:46:31

that comes to a valuation of £3,333,333.33p.

0:46:310:46:39

-Yeah.

-OK, so what I need to do is find out why.

0:46:390:46:43

So, 2012, you worked on a projection.

0:46:430:46:47

It was 1.1 million, and the net profit, around 35,000.

0:46:470:46:52

In 2013, the turnover is projected at 8.3 million,

0:46:520:46:56

net profit, 660,000,

0:46:560:46:59

and 2014, 23 million, net profit, 2.1.

0:46:590:47:05

Well, you know, if you match these projections,

0:47:080:47:10

you could well be worth 3,333,333.33p.

0:47:100:47:16

-That's why I've come here with that conviction.

-How do you know you're going to make them?

0:47:160:47:20

There's no shortage of inventory in houses,

0:47:200:47:22

and the last six months' turnover has been in the region of

0:47:220:47:25

£600,000 in total.

0:47:250:47:28

A confident rebuttal by Ben to the age-old issue of valuation.

0:47:330:47:37

But has it satisfied Deborah Meaden?

0:47:370:47:41

-Ben, hi.

-Hi, Deborah.

-How much money have you put in?

0:47:410:47:45

-I've properly put in about 50,000 in.

-Do you have other investors?

0:47:450:47:50

We have three shareholders at ten percent each.

0:47:500:47:53

And how much did they put into the business?

0:47:530:47:56

They put in 50,000 in collectively.

0:47:560:47:58

So, 17,000 each to give them ten percent?

0:47:580:48:01

So, how come these three investors put in £50,000,

0:48:040:48:08

and now suddenly we have to buy in at a later stage at £250,000?

0:48:080:48:12

Well, the only easy answer is that I'd put myself in a vulnerable

0:48:130:48:17

position by not organising the raising of finance in

0:48:170:48:21

a timely fashion, so I bought in three minority shareholders,

0:48:210:48:24

who I knew would in a mentoring capacity

0:48:240:48:27

help me in various different ways.

0:48:270:48:30

-OK, are you out of the woods now?

-Most definitely.

0:48:300:48:33

The main difference now is that we've ridden that classic cash flow curve.

0:48:330:48:39

How much cash have you got in the business now?

0:48:390:48:41

We're running an average balance of around £8,000 or £9,000.

0:48:410:48:45

You would kind of say there's not a lot of cash in the business at the moment?

0:48:450:48:48

-No, that's right.

-So, had you think that answers the question?

0:48:480:48:51

The only easy answer...

0:48:510:48:53

That has not bridged the gap between their valuation

0:48:530:48:55

and this valuation, has it?

0:48:550:48:57

The figures that I've given you are,

0:49:000:49:02

I will confess, assisted by an injection of investment.

0:49:020:49:05

So, I'm having to pay for the difference

0:49:050:49:07

that I'm going to make for the business.

0:49:070:49:09

I've got to give you £250,000, make a big difference to this business,

0:49:090:49:14

to make it worth the money that you're charging me for now.

0:49:140:49:16

That doesn't sound like a good way of me spending my money.

0:49:160:49:19

Well, if I had an opportunity to show you

0:49:190:49:21

the projections of the business...

0:49:210:49:23

I'm sorry, this is very frustrating, and I'll be perfectly honest,

0:49:230:49:26

I'm actually quite insulted that you clearly think

0:49:260:49:30

those other investors are of a different level to here.

0:49:300:49:34

Your company was being valued at £160,000.

0:49:340:49:38

You now value it at 3.3 million.

0:49:400:49:42

I can't possibly invest in something like this, so, I'm out.

0:49:440:49:47

Instant rejection from Peter Jones,

0:49:510:49:54

as the surefooted businessman loses his first Dragon.

0:49:540:49:58

And Hilary Devey is not looking impressed either.

0:49:580:50:01

-I think Peter's right, and I equally feel insulted.

-OK.

0:50:040:50:11

I'm sorry to hear you say that.

0:50:110:50:12

Yeah, so my next words are, "Ben, I'm out."

0:50:120:50:17

-Ben, can I tell you where I am?

-Yes, indeed.

0:50:190:50:23

I have to say it is not a good strategy to come in front of

0:50:230:50:27

five other investors and say,

0:50:270:50:29

"We value you so much less than the other investors,

0:50:290:50:32

"that for the same percentage, we're going to charge you £250,000."

0:50:320:50:36

That is not a good strategy when you're asking for investment.

0:50:360:50:40

And sometimes, you just lose investment

0:50:400:50:43

because you screw it up, and you just did. I'm out.

0:50:430:50:47

Ben, how do you think it's going so far?

0:50:530:50:56

Pretty catastrophic.

0:50:570:51:00

I quite like the model.

0:51:010:51:03

You know, have the three Dragons who've gone out missed something?

0:51:030:51:10

I think they've missed the motivation of an entrepreneur who's spent

0:51:100:51:16

the last eight years building internet businesses.

0:51:160:51:22

Just a little bit of background, briefly.

0:51:220:51:24

My previous business was Webflix.

0:51:240:51:26

I mean, I started that business in the bedroom of my mum's house.

0:51:260:51:31

We sold our customers, at a later date, to our big competitor.

0:51:310:51:36

-What was the amount?

-It was 150,000.

0:51:360:51:38

That's great. So, if I invest £250,000 in this, what is my exit?

0:51:380:51:45

Well, we've had interest from a big American company.

0:51:470:51:51

It was a bit early for us,

0:51:510:51:53

but there are potential trade sale exits for this business.

0:51:530:51:57

I wish you'd come in and asked for less money, Ben.

0:52:000:52:04

The valuation's wrong. So therefore, I got to say, I'm sorry, I'm out.

0:52:040:52:08

Ben's business revelations restore some credibility to his pitch,

0:52:110:52:14

but the result is still the same, and now four Dragons are out.

0:52:140:52:20

However, Theo Paphitis has been unusually quiet.

0:52:200:52:25

Now, Ben, I like the whole concept of it.

0:52:260:52:32

I'm a retailer, I know about retailing.

0:52:340:52:36

I see the future in exactly where you're going.

0:52:360:52:39

I'm just wondering whether you're just going to run out of steam?

0:52:390:52:43

One of the main reasons you can have confidence is that

0:52:430:52:46

we've developed the business to scale in extraordinary ways.

0:52:460:52:50

And it's all fully tested, robust technology.

0:52:500:52:53

Right. So I've got 250,000 quid in my pocket,

0:52:530:52:57

what are you going to give me in return?

0:52:570:53:00

At least a tenfold return on that investment in three years.

0:53:000:53:04

One of the things I can demonstrate to you is that my nearest competitor,

0:53:040:53:08

Music Magpie, they've been doing it since 2008,

0:53:080:53:12

and now generate something in the region of

0:53:120:53:15

100 million a year in revenue.

0:53:150:53:17

There's no shortage of people wanting to de-clutter.

0:53:170:53:19

But the problem is, you gave 30 percent for £50,000.

0:53:210:53:26

And you're asking for such a huge amount here.

0:53:280:53:31

I still believe it to be a not unreasonable

0:53:310:53:35

valuation at 3.5 million, but I would be prepared to obviously

0:53:350:53:41

move on that valuation, and therefore the percentage.

0:53:410:53:44

What would you offer me?

0:53:440:53:46

I'd offer you 15 percent.

0:53:460:53:50

OK.

0:53:500:53:52

I'm going to make you an offer...

0:53:580:54:00

..of the full £250,000.

0:54:040:54:07

But I'm going to be wanting...

0:54:110:54:13

..30 percent.

0:54:130:54:14

I would be prepared to offer you 20 percent

0:54:230:54:28

for that amount, if you would agree.

0:54:280:54:32

Believe you me, you don't know how much it hurts to offer you

0:54:320:54:35

£250,000 for the same amount as somebody else paid £50,000.

0:54:350:54:43

Am I in a position to consult with Matt, my business partner?

0:54:490:54:53

Yeah, I think, absolutely.

0:54:530:54:54

A tense exchange, but Ben finally gets the offer he badly needs.

0:54:580:55:03

But at four times the equity he initially wanted to give away.

0:55:030:55:07

Will his business partner be able to negotiate a better deal?

0:55:080:55:12

Hello, Matt, I'm Theo.

0:55:130:55:15

I just made Ben an offer,

0:55:180:55:20

and Ben feels it's important he discusses it with you.

0:55:220:55:26

Of course, yeah.

0:55:260:55:27

Before I tell you what that offer is, what I'd like to know,

0:55:270:55:31

who is Matt?

0:55:330:55:35

Oh, well, erm, I worked for British Aerospace for a while,

0:55:350:55:41

and then I became a web developer, and then I moved on,

0:55:410:55:46

I became a database expert.

0:55:460:55:48

I've been working with Ben for six years now.

0:55:480:55:53

I set up all the technology, design all the processes,

0:55:530:55:58

and make sure everything works together.

0:55:580:56:00

Well, let me just say to you, I have asked for 30 percent.

0:56:000:56:06

-Do you want to have a discussion about?

-Might be a good idea.

0:56:100:56:14

(WHISPERS) Thing is, it's not gone very well, I've been slaughtered.

0:56:230:56:28

What do you think we should do? So, we would have 40 percent.

0:56:280:56:34

-Less than half, control of the company.

-Yeah.

-That's bad for us.

0:56:340:56:39

OK, we'll go to 25, all or nothing. OK, let's go back.

0:56:390:56:46

It would involve extra dilution of my own shares,

0:56:530:56:57

but would you be prepared to move to 25 percent?

0:56:570:57:01

I would be prepared to stay at 30 percent.

0:57:010:57:05

We should consider not just the money,

0:57:090:57:13

but what Theo could bring in, in terms of his contacts, his networks.

0:57:130:57:17

What do you feel?

0:57:200:57:22

I feel we should accept the offer.

0:57:250:57:28

OK.

0:57:280:57:31

-Have we got a deal?

-We've got a deal.

-We've got a deal.

0:57:310:57:35

-Ben and Matt have done it.

-Excellent.

0:57:360:57:40

The cash injection cost them more equity, but they leave

0:57:400:57:42

with a highly experienced Dragon investor on board.

0:57:420:57:47

So, Ben and Matt have bagged the biggest investment

0:58:000:58:03

ever from a single Dragon.

0:58:030:58:06

Of course, it must have been frustrating that Theo Paphitis

0:58:060:58:09

wouldn't budge in his negotiations, but they've got their deal,

0:58:090:58:12

and they've made a little piece of den history in the process.

0:58:120:58:16

To hear more from the entrepreneurs about what it was like

0:58:160:58:20

to pitch in the den, press the red button now.

0:58:200:58:23

You can also visit our website:

0:58:230:58:25

bbc.co.uk/dragonsden

0:58:250:58:28

Goodbye.

0:58:280:58:30

Next week in the den:

0:58:300:58:32

There is somewhere a hidden door to a world you've never seen before.

0:58:320:58:38

Business is absolutely simple, people complicate business.

0:58:380:58:41

-I don't know why you're laughing at mine, Theo?

-Don't laugh at me!

0:58:410:58:45

Oh, my God, they don't look very well. Can you hear me?

0:58:450:58:47

I'm trying to think of the pitch, you're standing there with a supermarket buyer,

0:58:470:58:51

-saying, "I'm proud of my grandad."

-£240,000?

0:58:510:58:56

One of us is barking mad.

0:58:560:58:59

It's not me.

0:58:590:59:01

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0:59:170:59:20

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