Episode 6 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons, five of Britain's wealthiest

and most enterprising business leaders.

Over the coming weeks,

they'll make or break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

It must have been a hell of a jolly boys' outing that you lot went on.

Your knowledge is exceptionally weak.

I want more because I think that I'm worth more.

At that rate, you'll be building my coffin for me before I get my investment back.

The multi-millionaire investors have each built up

their fortunes from scratch.

Retail magnate Theo Paphitis,

hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne,

leisure industry expert Deborah MeaDen,

queen of logistics Hilary Devey,

and telecoms giant Peter Jones.

the Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment

and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.

Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs

walk away with their money?

Here in the Dragons' Den,

we confront the immovable optimism of cash-hungry entrepreneurs

with the irresistible scrutiny of our five multi-millionaire Dragons.

The entrepreneurs want the Dragons to invest in their businesses.

the Dragons want to know whether those businesses

have a good product to sell.

Can any deals be reached in the Den today?

Our first entrepreneur is dog lover Marie Sawle

with her unusual new product.

Will the Dragons think it has investment potential?

Hello, Dragons. My name is Marie and this is Margot.

I'm here today to ask you for £60,000

in return for 20% of my company.

Billy + Margot is the first company in the UK to produce and sell

iced treats for dogs.

It all began some time ago with Billy, our first pet Labrador.

In the summer, we often had an ice cream van come and stop outside.

It didn't take him long to recognise the van's tune

and associate it with his favourite treat.

At the time, I was training to become a nutritionist

and it concerned me that some of the ingredients in those ice creams

were not particularly good for Billy

and I decided to develop my own version of an ice cream for dogs.

Billy + Margot were released at Crufts for the first time

with our first two flavours.

We have found a manufacturer,

agreed terms with a national distributor

and we have recruited a number of retail partners.

Sadly, Billy's no longer with us,

but Margot here has gladly taken the role of chief taster.

Thank you for listening.

May I ask you to maybe give Margot a treat?

I will give you...

..an ice treat.

French-born entrepreneur Marie Sawle needs a £60,000 investment

in her doggy ice treats to help convince the nation's animal-lovers

this is the latest way to indulge their pet.

In return, she is offering 20% of the company.

However, Peter Jones looks less intrigued by the business itself.

Is it just for dogs or can I...?

You can, the ingredients are human grade.

-Quite nice.

-It is tasty.

Margot, look at this.

He's teasing Margot.

-She likes it then?

-She does.

-It tastes very nice.

We've chosen apple and strawberries, carrot and banana,

which are fruit and vegetables that dogs love.

So, Marie, tell me a little bit about the business

because you've said you got a national distributor.

What does that mean?

They've agreed to take pallets of the product

and deliver to the retailers that I have recruited.

-Have they given you an order?

-They have.

It's about 6,000 units, which is approximately just under £5,000.

My last question, what would that cost in a retail store?

-£2.99.

-Wow.

But it's very much in line with dog treats

and at Crufts in four days, we sold 500 tubs.

A composed Marie handles the quick-fire questions with ease,

but Hilary Devey wants to take a different tack.

How much input have the veterinary surgeons had into this product?

Not that much of an input.

I just felt that being a nutritionist myself,

I was able to use this background,

although just as part of branding, I think it will be important

to have a pet nutritionist on board to endorse the product.

Talk to me about the supply chain of this.

How much does it cost you to actually manufacture?

It's 46p cost.

I sell it to a wholesaler for 87p plus VAT.

They then sell it on to a retailer at £1.25 plus VAT.

What are your aspirations?

I don't just want it to be a product, I want it to become a brand.

I want it to become a household brand for dog owners.

For the last nine months, I've put my life into this.

I want to turn it into a success and at the moment,

with these orders coming through, I work 14 to 18 hours a day.

Well done. You have to.

Ambitious, well-qualified, dedicated.

All valuable attributes for a potential investee,

but the Den looks to be split, and not all the Dragons are impressed.

-I'm sorry, I think this is absolutely ridiculous.

-OK.

It really is something that you have wasted nine months on

and you could waste more time on it.

The margin's not big enough. It's too expensive to produce.

You're absolutely right in terms of the margin.

I need to achieve a better margin and a better return

and I can only do that by reducing my costs.

That goes down with economy of scale.

You can't drive your prices down without having

a huge manufacturing facility to manufacture your ice cream.

You say the price is in line with doggy treats, but it's not in line

with ice cream, and people will still buy ice cream for their dogs.

You're wasting your time on this.

There's no margin in it. There's no money in it.

It's not going to sell.

-I'm out.

-Thank you.

A first blow for Marie

as Duncan Bannatyne slams her business prospects.

Will Peter Jones find anything

to help bring Marie's pitch back on track?

I think your brand's very good

and I think your positioning is interesting.

I can't work out whether this is a real business.

I'll tell you why, I don't think you've given

a very good pitch in terms of the market.

Give me a feeling for this industry or sector.

OK, there are a few leading brands in the UK for dog treats.

For example, Lily's Kitchen. Their model was very similar to mine.

Do you know how many they sold?

I'm sorry, Peter, I don't know.

What I'm saying is do you have any information,

financial information, on a potential competitor?

No, because I have no competitor.

No-one else is doing it.

I want to be completely unique which is what this is.

But how do you know you can make money doing that?

You've got nobody to benchmark against.

There is a very similar concept in the US.

Nestle launched in the US about four years ago

something called Frosty Paws. It's a very similar concept.

Do you know their revenue? Do you know their profitability?

Unfortunately, their information, being in the US,

I haven't been able to access their figures.

Do you see the problem, Marie?

You're pitching something where actually you don't really understand

the market place you're entering.

Your knowledge is exceptionally weak.

You've done no real market research.

-I did all that.

-No, you didn't.

No, I did my market-research...

Market research to you might be the product and what they're selling.

Market research to me, as an investor,

is pounds, shillings and pence.

Sure.

-Marie, I'm not going to invest and I'm out.

-Thank you, Peter.

Two Dragons out and Marie's hopes of investment are starting to fade.

Theo Paphitis has now made up his mind too.

You have done well, you've created the product and you've sold it,

but what you're not doing is selling me.

"This is something, Theo, put your money in."

-Dragons are here, I'm here to invest.

-Of course you are.

You haven't managed to convince me or excite me.

I very much doubt if it's going to be a big business,

-so I'm going to wish you luck and say I'm out.

-Thank you, Theo.

-Marie.

-Yes, Hilary.

I disagree entirely with what Peter, Duncan and Theo have said.

Thank you.

I'll tell you why.

Go to Harrods on a Sunday.

They now sell doggy cupcakes.

There are queues to buy those doggy cupcakes.

I was recently in Miami.

I was amazed to see doggy ice cream selling equally as much

as normal ice cream.

I think you are on to something.

I'm going to make you an offer.

I know they're absolutely amazed.

I'm going to offer you the full 60K...

..but I'd like 30% of the business.

A dramatic turn of events as Marie finally finds a Dragon

to share her vision at a price.

Hilary Devey wants far more of the business than the 20% on offer,

but Deborah Meaden has been unusually quiet.

This market in these difficult times is a market that is expanding.

What's happened in it is there are a lot of individual brands like this

that have been bought up by the big suppliers.

I've got one down the road from me.

Everybody thinks they're an independent,

they're not an independent. They've been bought up.

Owners want to feel like their animals are having something special

and something different, so there's no big announcement

that says "Whiskas has bought so-and-so,"

they just swallow them up, acquire them,

and just keep selling them as individuals.

I am staggered at the amount of money spent on animal treats.

I like this.

I think there's a market. There's definitely a gap.

There are acquirers out there

looking for brands to own market share,

so the market conditions are right

for a reasonably short growth, turnaround, exit.

So, I have a very clear vision of what we could do with this

and I am very well acquainted with a brand that has been through

a very similar route.

I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm afraid I want more of the equity.

Because I think that I'm worth more.

I'm going to offer you £60,000,

but I want 40% of the business.

OK.

I've got to say that I'm also, not just Deborah,

acquainted with large brands as well.

OK.

May I take just a few seconds just to...?

OK.

I'm incredibly grateful for both your offers,

considering what you have all said before.

I would like to accept your offer.

Excellent.

Marie has done it.

She sold off double the equity she initially intended,

but sometimes in business,

a clear strategy comes with a higher price tag.

the Den has witnessed its fair share of battles,

but thankfully they've all been of the business variety.

Stuart Davies from Weston-super-Mare changed all that as he sought

investment in his new mixed martial arts fighting tournament.

Fight Factor is a national talent competition

for martial artists throughout the UK.

Think of it as the equivalent to X Factor for fighters.

I'd like to introduce Julie Kitchen, 14 times world champion Thai boxer

to demonstrate the skill level that's needed for this tournament.

Impressed by the display,

it was Duncan Bannatyne who began the first round.

OK, Stuart. You look a handy lad yourself so what's your background?

I've been involved in martial arts since I was nine years old.

I won a world title in Denmark in 2001.

-I mean, how do you monetise it?

-Ticket sales.

The shows that I've done in the past

have sold between 880 to 1,000 tickets

with no marketing spend. This business just need the exposure.

Stuart showed he was adept at a bit of business sparring.

Stuart, I know nothing about this.

It feels like there might be somebody out there

who can add more value than just cash.

We can teach you.

But in the end, it was Theo Paphitis who delivered the knockout blow.

-Honestly, I'm going to give you some advice here.

-OK.

You should not be doing this on your own.

You will need to bring in a broadcast/promotional partner

and you certainly shouldn't be doing it with someone like me

who also has not got the experience.

I just like watching it.

I'm out.

Since Strictly Come Dancing exploded on to our screens in 2004,

more people in the UK than ever before

take part in ballroom dancing.

University lecturer Nicholas Gallagher-Hughes

thinks that this fact alone has the potential

to turn his hobby into a money-making business.

But will the Dragons agree?

MUSIC: "Cry Me A River" by Michael Buble

Hello.

My name is Nick Gallagher-Hughes

and I'm here today to try and encourage you to invest £97,500

for a 15% share of the company.

Topline Dance Frame is a tuition aid

designed to assist the ballroom dancer

overcome the problems that they have when they are learning to dance.

I'm just going to fit them on now to show you how easily they fit

if I can get Robin to come in.

And Graham.

What the frame instantly does

is improves not only the posture and the stance,

but it encourages core rotation.

In 2010, it was launched at the British National Dance Championships

in Blackpool where it received very favourable feedback.

It is an affluent market.

The average ballroom dancer in this country

spends between five and £20,000 a year.

With your expertise,

we hope we can make this product grow into a worldwide phenomenon.

The only way you can see if this product works is you try it on.

-I invite you to try it on.

-I'll try it.

-Thank you.

A theatrical pitch from Hereford's Nick Gallagher-Hughes

as he brings a touch of sequins and sparkle into the Den.

I'm going to put a large frame on you, you are very tall.

The assured entrepreneur is hoping

that 15% of his ballroom dance training invention

is worth a precise £97,500 of investment.

My arms are aching.

Before settling in to questioning,

one Dragon in particular wants to try out the product.

-Oh, are you waltzing?

-I'm waltzing.

He's going to... CLATTERING

LAUGHTER

Thank you.

APPLAUSE

Stick to your day job.

I really enjoyed the dance, thank you very much,

and I hope I didn't hurt your back over the stand.

Nick, I thought it was brilliant. It worked.

It actually wasn't as uncomfortable as I thought it would be.

We all know Strictly Come Dancing.

It's clearly raised the profile of ballroom dancing for sure.

What about a celebrity endorsement?

I'm actually working with a gentleman

who is the former world champion ballroom dancer

-to become our new international ambassador.

-OK.

You haven't got Brendan, Anton, Ola, Natalie.

Can I say with no disrespect to them,

they are known in Britain and that's it.

A confident start from the experienced ballroom dancer,

but how will he fare under the scrutiny of Hilary Devey?

Hi, Nick. I'm Hilary.

-Tell me how you got into this.

-How did I get into it?

About 20-plus years ago, I had a very bad motorbike accident,

and I broke my shoulder in three places.

When I started dancing, I literally had trouble holding my arm up.

I am a cyclist as well and I was on my drop handlebar bike

and looked at the shape.

It was one of those lightbulb moments.

-How many have you sold to date?

-To date, we've sold 487.

-You've sold at what cost?

-Average price is 105.

That's the retail price so what's your cost?

It cost me just under £20 per unit.

Nick, how much money have you made out of selling these?

What's your profit over the period you've started selling them?

To be honest, we actually made a loss in the first year of £2,200.

How did you make that loss?

What were your costs, what were your overheads?

Attending trade fairs. A trade fair will cost us £3,000.

Nick, I knew you were going to say attending trade fairs.

This is the problem with trade fairs.

If it costs you £500 to attend and you make £400 profit,

you've lost on that day on the trade fair

and there's no huge benefit to you.

If it wasn't for the trade fairs,

we wouldn't be in the position we are now.

-We look at our figures...

-Nick, Nick, Nick.

If it wasn't for spending money on trade fairs,

you wouldn't have made a loss.

Trade fairs all round the world don't work according to Duncan.

I never said that! I never said that, Theo.

Not everything that goes to a trade fair becomes profitable

just because it came to a trade fair. Let's take it another way.

Let's look at your projections going forward from this year.

-If you don't know...

-Wholesale at full price, sorry...

I'm talking about the revenue that you expect to gain

by selling this product over the next year.

100 frames is £10,000 per month.

That wasn't difficult to answer, was it?

No. Difficult question to understand.

The atmosphere turns tetchy, but Nick refuses to back down.

Can Theo Paphitis bring a little order to proceedings?

I think it does what it says on the tin.

I can see it's simple, so is there anything else like that gadget?

There is actually something in America.

It is one big lump of metal covered in spray foam.

I have actually spoken to the gentleman in America and he says

he wishes he had done it like I've done it.

How many did he sell?

He sold a couple of hundred in about eight years.

Nick, hi, I'm Deborah.

We used to have dance festivals actually at our holiday parks.

Quite big ones. The amount of trade that used to be done

on the ancillary stuff was nuts and that's really what it was all about.

I actually get that. I can imagine exactly where you sell it.

I get completely how much people spend,

but this is not a mass-market product.

I'd have to take an awful lot of your business off you

for me to be at all convinced

that I would get any kind of return on my investment.

You're not going to want me to take more than half

your business off you. I'm sure about that.

Before we even embark on that route, I might as well tell you now, Nick,

-it's not for me.

-Thank you very much.

Calmness may have been restored, but Nick has lost his first Dragon.

It looks like Hilary Devey has made up her mind too.

I think you've answered a problem with a solution, haven't you?

You've certainly all got fantastic postures

so it must be doing something for you.

It's not something that I'm familiar with.

I've never done ballroom dancing

other than a waltz after half a bottle of wine

and I've probably not done it very well.

-I've got to say I'm out.

-Thank you.

Nick, bottom line is this has been out and about

since November 2010.

You've sold 400.

Now, you know your market and I think that's the point.

You don't need me because I can't open any doors for you.

The money alone is not enough.

It needs people understanding its benefits,

establishing the product and waxing lyrical about it.

-So I'm afraid I'm out.

-OK.

Nick, I think you've pitched this brilliantly

and if it was £20,000, I have to say,

I think I probably would have said I'm in.

But because it's 97,500,

I'm unfortunately going to have to say, Nick, I'm out.

Some kind words, but it's bad news on the investment front.

It doesn't look like Nick will get a reprieve from Duncan Bannatyne.

-Where are these trade shows that you want to attend?

-The German Open.

The German Open is the biggest in the world. It has three dance halls.

There's the Dutch Open, there's Hong Kong, there's China.

You want to, with the £97,500,

attend trade shows flying round the world, staying in nice hotels.

I wish, it's usually cheap bed and breakfast.

Flying round the world, staying in bed and breakfasts.

Driving around Europe, usually.

Nick, I think you're just here on a wing and a prayer and you think,

"I've got something here that I've made, I want to sell some,

"I want to travel round the world."

Your opinion, Mr Bannatyne. Your opinion.

-Thanks, Nick, I'm out.

-Thank you all very much.

Nick Stood his ground well, but to no avail.

He leaves with nothing.

The best entrepreneurs are by nature problem solvers

and it's those problems that often provide the inspiration

for their business idea.

For Londoners Shaff Prabatani, Jay Bryan and Ben Rogers,

their idea was to solve the problem of limited storage for householders.

Jay moves into his house and has some spare room in his loft.

Someone searching for storage space taps in his postcode,

they contact each other through the site

and officially become Storemates.

We're the world's first online storage sharing service.

The trio certainly made an impression in the Den.

I can't help saying, when you came in I thought you were going to sing.

Because the three of you, the two with glasses wearing blue shirt,

and one with no glasses wearing a green shirt - it's a little boy group!

LAUGHTER

But the Dragons quickly spotted a fundamental flaw in their business concept.

You don't think there's a slight security issue here?

It's a great question, because that's the first thing my mum said to me.

If you sign up to it, you have to create a profile.

Yeah, but if I was a bad man, I could quite easily create a profile,

and I could store some bad, bad, bad things in somebody's house.

There's a contract, you have to go through an inventory.

And there's a review system, similar to Amazon or eBay,

and there's guidelines around safe and secure storage.

It was Deborah Meaden who summed up the mood in the Den.

You're nice guys.

The problem is, you're relying on everybody being the people you are.

And this is ripe for somebody to take advantage of.

You don't even know if the stuff you're storing

belongs to those people. You have no idea.

-I'm out.

-Thank you.

So far tonight, only one entrepreneur has done enough

to secure the backing of multimillionaire investor.

I would like to accept your offer.

Excellent!

For an insight into Deborah Meaden's decision to invest in Marie's

doggie ice treats, press the red button at the end of the programme.

If you ever go to rock festivals, listen up

and see what you think of our next entrepreneur's product.

Dustin Toland used to design golf courses,

but he's expanded his range.

I wonder if the Dragons will be inspired to invest.

Hello.

My name's Dustin Toland, I'm here today for £100,000 investment

in Gigwam for 15% of the company.

First, I'd like to show you some of the unique features of this product.

You'll see, initially, there's no pole inside.

This is because we have a flexible pole

which creates tension on the fly sheet.

This means there's no need for any internal supports.

You'll see, secondly, there are many access panels,

there can be up to eight, and these are some of the multiplications

of that that can be done, and it can go on infinitely.

This is all protected by a design registration in Europe

and America, and an international patent is pending

and could be granted later this year.

And that's everything I'd like to show you,

so I'd be happy to take your questions.

-Can I look inside it?

-I'd love you to, yes.

A rather brief pitch from Dustin Toland from Kent,

who's hoping his eye-catching tent design will do the talking.

-Meet you in the middle?

-All right.

He needs £100,000 to launch his start-up company

and is willing to give away a 15% stake.

Theo Paphitis appears intrigued.

-Dustin.

-Yes.

-What is your background?

-I build golf courses.

-That's your living?

-Yes, it is, yes.

-OK.

And you decided you're going to invent or create a tent.

Correct.

And what was the inspiration behind it?

Um, the name, actually.

The name came to mind immediately, I just had an idea about the festivals.

From that, I came up with a tepee-type tent

and a way of eliminating the pole from the middle of it,

then the connections, and I just ran with it from there.

That was all in the space of a week or two.

And how much are you hoping to sell them for?

£129.99 retail.

-Retail?

-That's with a tunnel, yes.

So, tell me, how much are you making them for?

£37, tent and tunnel.

Where have you got to with regards to distribution?

I'm in talks with the leading

catalogue high-street retailer in the UK.

They wanted exclusivity a couple of years ago.

A verbal order for 10,000 units was bandied around.

I wasn't quite ready and I didn't want to rush the production.

They understood this, completely, and we're in talks again now.

Businesslike - if somewhat nervy -

responses from the knowledgeable entrepreneur.

Will Duncan Bannatyne help Dustin steady his pitch?

I'm still not convinced. Why would anybody want to do this?

Well, for example, the tepee-style tent is the only one

on the market without the pole in the middle.

The pole takes up a lot of room...

I think I've seen tepee tents without a pole in the middle before.

Probably with three sides, which is not actually a tepee.

And I don't know of another two-person tent on the market

an adult can stand up in.

I don't see the advantage of standing up.

I agree that tepee tents aren't everybody's cup of tea,

that's a fact, but there is a market for it for its novel factors.

I don't think you're going to sell it

just on the basis that it's novel.

It's contrary to the feedback I've been getting.

For example, the retailers that are interested

had a tepee tent, they'd sold 40,000.

OK. So, let me just go back to you.

How many golf courses have you designed?

I've built 18, and designed three or four.

Are you still doing that?

I had a company, and the recession hit us.

I was working for RBS in Scotland.

Does that mean that you closed it down, paid everybody

-went for administration or receivership?

-No, it was dissolved.

-And had debts left when it was dissolved?

-It had debts.

-It was around £240,000 to about seven or eight creditors.

-Wow.

-So, you weren't struck off or anything?

-No, not at all.

HE EXHALES

A difficult exchange,

but Dustin does now seem to have settled into Den questioning.

What will leisure industry expert Deborah Meaden make of it all?

Hi, Dustin, I'm Deborah.

Um...

It's important, going into business with somebody,

to understand what's happened in the past.

It's not always...

You know, it's not a crime for a business not to work out.

So, I'm going to talk about this, you'll be pleased to know.

I think it looks good. What's your market?

Initially it was the music festival market with this product,

but I'd like to expand.

I have a children's one, called Kidwam,

that I'll be releasing, for children, obviously.

And larger versions called Bigwam, which could be four, six,

and possibly eight-man versions.

I'd like to expand if it's successful.

Have you looked at the camping market, at all?

I'm hoping to look at all camping markets,

and I'm looking at Southern Hemisphere countries, as well.

I'm in touch with people in Australia.

-PETER:

-Dustin?

-Yes.

-I think the product looks brilliant.

-Thank you.

And I can see people buying it.

Because I think it's appealing, it looks quite cool...

But I am slightly concerned over this patent.

If I had £100,000 of my money...

..why couldn't I just replicate something like this?

If it looked like this,

you'd have a problem with the design registration...

When you say "looked like", what do you mean?

These are covered by design registration, these diagrams here.

The doorways, the actual structure, the tunnel...

But if I made that a square opening...

If you made that a square opening

you would have to have a much narrower one, or somehow...

-Well, I'd go wider, wouldn't I?

-Yeah.

I think it looks great, and I can see people buying it,

but, actually, have you got something here

that is sufficiently protected to allow such an investment for 15%?

That's what's going through my head at the moment.

Dustin's had a topsy-turvy time in the Den so far,

but there are still five Dragons in.

Now Duncan Bannatyne looks to have come to a decision.

Well, I tell you where I am now just now.

I quite like you.

And I'd possibly have one for my grandchildren.

But that is the problem

I don't think it's going to be bought by serious campers.

And that's where the big market is.

There are a million festival goers every year.

I don't think festival goers are going to be interested in it.

So, for that reason, I have to say, I'm sorry, but I'm out.

Thank you.

Dustin, let me tell you where I am.

I like the looks of it, but it's just simply not my bag.

-I'm not into camping...

-No, I understand.

I don't see myself investing in this,

so, for that reason, I'm out.

Kind words about the product, but no cash.

And now Deborah Meaden is ready to show her hand, too.

I've been sitting here struggling with it, because I think

you're not clear exactly which market you think

this is going to take.

Because it is a different product, the tent you put in your garden,

to the tent you actually go and sleep in when you're going

to a festival, to the tent your family takes

to go on a camping holiday.

But I think it's got a market.

It's nice.

The wigwam idea is nice, and actually the standing up

when you put your socks on is quite handy.

But what becomes really precious to people when they go to festivals,

or when they go camping, is their own space,

and a configuration that actually created

your own space in the middle we haven't talked about yet,

but that, actually, I can see would be very valuable.

So, I am going to make you an offer.

-Thank you.

-But there is the caveat,

I would have to be fully satisfied on the circumstances

-of your previous situation.

-Absolutely, yes, sure.

So I'm going to offer you all the money.

I want 45% of the business.

It's a dramatic about turn,

but Dustin's revelations have resulted in an offer

of three times the amount he wanted to give away,

and just two Dragons remain.

-Dustin?

-Yes.

I think you're going to come up against serious competition

when you start to push this into the market.

If you'd come in here and said you had a specific patent

-I could look at that gave us...

-I do have, actually.

-And it's granted?

-It will be later...

-That's not good enough.

-OK.

Unfortunately, reluctantly, that's the only reason why I'm out.

-Thank you.

-But good luck, I'd certainly buy one.

OK!

I've been sitting here thinking, it looks great.

It's practicality? Not as good as its looks.

But, there is something about this. What does that roll down to?

It all goes into one of the pop-up bags.

So that tepee, plus the tunnel, what does it go to?

It's a metre by a metre by 150 thickness.

-That's very small.

-It's quite small.

It's on a shoulder strap, as well.

OK, um...

You've got one offer from Deborah.

-I'm going to make you an offer, as well.

-Thank you.

I, too, will offer you the full £100,000...

I will come down to 45%, as well.

If I mention now that there's another tent that I'm bringing out

in the next few years called Gigloo,

which is a dome shape, which is less pricey,

and there will be a Kidloo and a Bigloo, as well,

would you consider halving your equity,

because I've doubled the product range?

I, personally, would be investing in you and the tent business.

-It's all or nothing.

-OK, I understand.

-My offer would stand exactly as it is.

-OK.

Um...

I know that both of you would add huge influence and value to this,

but I had a place I'd go to, and that would be at 25%.

I'm going to have to decline, I'm afraid.

OK.

But thank you very much, all of you.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

Dustin showed these Dragons are willing to take risks

with their own money, but only if the price is right.

He leaves with nothing.

That was one of the most interesting responses to an offer I think I've ever heard.

There's too much risk. That's a big money punt, £100,000.

The reason I turned down the investment was

at those kind of figures I just felt I'm going to be better on my own.

We'll see if that's true or not.

Others who tried and failed in the Den included friends

Padrig Hughes and Dewi Roberts, from Anglesey,

who offered up a tasty proposition for the multimillionaires.

Toffoc is a premium quality, toffee-flavoured vodka.

We got the idea eight years ago.

We went skiing, I can't claim that the toffee vodka

enhanced our skiing, but it certainly helped us for the apres ski.

We're very fortunate that we have got Gary Rhodes,

who is a business partner with us.

It's rare for these Dragons to pass up the chance for a tipple.

Oh, that smells lovely.

Wow! It is very nice.

That must have been a hell of a jolly boys' outing you lot went on.

But woe betide take any entrepreneur who thinks that might help soften them up.

Tell me where you are at the minute, then.

There was a loss of 3,000, there was a loss of 2,000,

but we've made a profit of 9,000 on the first year.

-So, you made money in year one.

-Yes.

-You lost in year two...

-Yes, and we lost slightly at the end of year three.

There's something wrong then, isn't here?

No joy in the numbers, then, and even the involvement

of a celebrity chef couldn't provide a reason to toast an investment.

Gary Rhodes, how much did he invest in the business?

He's given us his branding.

So why isn't it called Rhodes Toffee then?

-Because it's our toffee.

-You've got him to endorse your product,

but you won't allow him to endorse it because it's yours?

-I don't want an argument!

-Get your celebrity endorser to do more work for you.

There's no way I can invest £75,000 of my money,

and that's why I'm going to say, guys, I'm out.

Thank you for your time.

Dumfries-based father and daughter Dawson Sellar and Susan Corrie

try to recreate a tranquil summer's evening in the Den

with their innovative garden seat design.

Oh, my God.

We've designed this swing to be stylish and relaxing.

It's intended for self-assembly.

It requires no maintenance other than cleaning,

and the non-spill table feature is particularly intriguing.

We'd like to invite you all to come and have a little swing.

The Dragons clearly enjoyed a brief moment of R&R.

Some people have said it's a bit like sailing in your garden.

And there was something that caught the attention of Peter Jones.

Dawson, can I say congratulations

on the most outrageous trouser seen in the Den.

Being a designer's a bit like being the Queen, you know.

If you don't wear something bright, no-one will notice you.

But as a business concept, it failed to capture their imagination.

If you're just going to do it for enjoyment, then do it.

If you're doing it to make money, then find a good distributor,

manufacturer, license it to them, sit back, collect a royalty,

and do something that's going to be more fruitful.

-I'm out.

-Thank you.

There never seems to be any shortage of ideas coming into the Den

aimed at gardeners.

We obviously have a lot of green-fingered inventors

in this country.

Next into the Den are Henry and Philip Blake who hope

the Dragons will want to invest in their family business.

Hello, Dragons.

My name is Henry Blake, this is my father Philip Blake,

and we're here today looking for a £75,000 investment for 10%

in our company called WoodBlocX and what we've got is

a set of wooden blocks of five different standard sizes,

that are joined together with these plastic dowels and wedges.

The whole block system is patented

and we also have a patent on this unique dowel and wedge system.

There's multiple different uses for WoodBlocX -

you can build raised beds, steps, benches,

or seats. You can also build retaining walls up to a metre high

and we can also guarantee these for 15 years.

We launched ten years ago and we distribute it through retailers,

but the retailers doubled the price of it by the time it got to the customer,

and this just made it rather expensive.

We put it on the web, but ten years ago the web wasn't very good

and it didn't go very well,

but two years ago, Henry came into the business

and he developed a new website and since then it's been fantastic.

We've got from 80,000 a year to 480,000 a year this year, estimate.

We want to make WoodBlocX into a household brand,

we think it's that good.

-Thank you.

-Thank you very much.

An assured pitch from father and son, Philip and Henry Blake

from the Highlands, who hope to transform the nation's gardens.

They need a £75,000 cash injection

for their build-it-yourself landscaping product.

In return, a 10% stake is on offer. Theo Paphitis looks impressed.

Henry, Philip, hello, I'm Theo.

Listen, this looks great, but I was trying to work out, I mean,

what does a sleeper cost?

Has anyone bought a sleeper recently? You guys will know.

I think you can pay in the range of £13 to £30 per sleeper.

So if I do build a raised bed using sleepers, two, three thick - how may would you do?

For vegetables - three thick.

So as a comparison, how much does your product cost?

These would be about £450 each, delivered.

We're not that far different actually,

because with the sleepers - how are you going to get them?

Are you going to take them home in your car? Don't think so.

-You have them delivered!

-It's expensive delivering sleepers.

You need a crane to take them off.

-OK, where does the wood come from to make these?

-We...

-On you go.

OK, some of it is local.

We have a sawmill north of Inverness in the north of Scotland,

but we also buy it from Latvia.

-The pine from Latvia is probably better quality.

-Right, so, sawmill?

-Yes.

-How long has it been in the family and does it make money?

-My wife's great-grandmother was a sawmiller, actually.

-Your wife's...

-Great-grandfather.

-Great-grandmother.

-Great-grandmother.

-Yeah.

-Your wife's great-grandmother?

-Yes.

-So it's been in the family for generations.

-And you make money?

-Yes, we do.

-Can you give me that bottom-line figure for last year?

-OK, 600,000.

-Profit?

-Mm-mm.

-Last year?

-Mm-hm.

Good design and impressive business credentials,

the duo have started well,

but Deborah Meaden wants to take a different tack.

Um, this is a family business. Have you got brothers or sisters?

I've got two younger brothers.

Are they working within the business?

-My youngest brother is helping me in the office.

-OK.

How much involvement do you have, Philip, on a day-to-day basis?

Um, not nearly so much nowadays.

I keep track of the numbers,

but all the marketing and the day-to-day work is done by the boys.

The other thing that might be worth saying is that I built the website

and I put together the marketing plan

to get this to where it is at the moment,

but I don't have a background in marketing.

I have taken a good guess at what I think is going to work

and I would love to have someone on board to help me

take this to the next level and bring it to the mass media,

rather than to garden specific.

Can I ask you something?

What happens when the two of you don't agree?

I can't believe that's ever happened!

That's not a good answer in itself.

That's probably one of the issues

that can sit within a family business,

which is particularly when the younger generation come through

and if you never disagree, that probably isn't healthy.

I always try to give Henry his head,

even if I don't agree with what he's doing,

so the default position is that he takes a decision.

And then hopefully he learns he's made a dreadful mistake.

It's worked. DEBORAH LAUGHS

That basically, in a nutshell, is a lesson on family businesses.

There's a jovial atmosphere,

but that rarely lasts long in the Den.

Now Peter Jones wants to drill down into the business itself.

Henry, Philip, it looks really good and you've got, clearly,

a very successful sawmill business, making a lot of money,

but this isn't to do with the sawmill business, is it?

No, in the WoodBlocX business,

it's not a separate business at this stage,

but we would make it a separate business.

You said that you forecasted to sell 480,000.

What did you do the whole of last year?

The whole of last year, 335.

-Your gross profit?

-Our gross profit is 38%.

£110,000?

Yes, that would be right.

And what did you net last year?

The net profit last year was minimal, about £10,000.

Because we spent a lot on marketing.

Where are you so far this year?

We have about £221,000 for the first four months.

A 50% increase in product sales already this year.

So, what are you projected to make in terms of net profit?

-31.

-31,000?

So, we're not talking very wealthy here, are we?

This is not a short-term thing.

At the moment, we're in the growth phase.

What would be the message to your investor as an exit strategy?

Right, we could, obviously only having 10%,

you would not be in control of the dividends.

We could offer you a guaranteed dividend.

Yeah, but a guaranteed dividend of 10% of 31K a year

on nearly £500,000 turnover won't change my life, will it?

How negotiable are you on the percentage?

Slightly.

What is slightly?

Well, we could do 15.

I know, but at that rate, I'll be in the ground.

You'll be building my coffin for me before I get my investment back!

I think on this occasion, I've got to say, I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

It's the first setback for the likeable duo

as Hilary Devey casts doubt on their money making potential.

It doesn't look like Duncan Bannatyne is going to offer them any respite.

This could never replace sleepers.

Even if you did a television advert for something this,

in a year's time, everybody would forget about it

and start using sleepers or brick again.

I think you have a long haul to actually make this into a brand.

This is not an investment.

-A nice product, but no return capital so I'm out.

-Thank you.

I think the big issue for me, and it's why I asked

about the relationship between you, which is great and lovely to see.

Sometimes when you add somebody sitting outside of that relationship,

the day there is disagreement,

then minority investors just get ganged up on.

I think had you been closer to me, my geographic heartland,

that probably wouldn't concern me so much.

But for me, that combination pushes it that one step too far.

-So I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thank you anyway.

-Yes, thank you very much.

Henry, Philip, I actually like the product,

I think it's brilliant and I've thought of some other uses for it.

The problem I have got is,

it's going to be a long time before I receive anything.

At the end of the day, this is a family business.

You should both be proud for your relationship,

but as an investment for me, it's just not viable.

So with regret, I'm saying, I'm out.

Three more Dragons walk away from the deal

and the father and son's investment dreams

now rest solely with Peter Jones.

Has he seen something that his rivals have not?

So, Henry, Philip, the cash you're making at your sawmill,

why, after ten years of your life, getting it to where it is today,

why would you choose to not invest it in this?

Well, we have invested in this,

a total of £660,000 in the last 12 years.

That includes all the marketing spend.

When you take this out of your existing sawmill business,

what assets will the new company have in it?

We have machinery, a building where we store it.

-That could become part of it.

-What would that be worth?

Probably £100,000.

And it will then also, within that company, have all of the rights

and all of the IP to the patent?

Yes.

And on top of that,

you said also you would make sure that you would guarantee

the dividend amount?

Yes. It's slightly better because I forgot the stock.

We have maybe £200,000 worth of stock.

Thank you for leaving that to the last minute, Philip.

Jealous now, aren't you?

So, Henry, Philip, I'm going to make you an offer.

I will offer you the full amount of money.

But I want 25%.

However, the minute I get my £75,000 back, I would drop to 15%.

You get the benefits you're looking for from working with me,

but at the same, I can end up with 15% of your company.

-I would be keen to say yes.

-Yes.

It's another disastrous mistake from my son!

-No, it's not. I would say yes, too.

-We would be delighted.

Well done, you've got a deal. You've got an investment!

Thank you very much.

Philip and Henry have done it.

It was an investment pitch that went right down to the wire,

but they leave with an excited Peter Jones on board.

It's a good product.

I just felt uncomfortable being a family business.

I'm sure you'll find lots of reasons

to feel uncomfortable now you've lost a great opportunity!

You've probably noticed that everybody keeps saying

we need economic growth in this country,

but many talk of it as though it's the kind of thing you can buy from a vending machine.

In fact, growth comes from real businesses making successful investments and doing new things.

So, with another two deals here today,

it's fair to say the Den is doing its bit.

If you want to find out more about how the Dragons assess a business,

press the red button

where you'll find exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews

with our multi-millionaires. Goodbye.

Next week in the Den:

I didn't wake up this morning

expecting to be talking about gentleman's intimate wipes.

It's not a good deal.

It is not a brand-new concept.

Do your homework!

I've got to make you an offer.

I don't know what day you were born on, but I wasn't born yesterday.

Sometimes you just lose investment because you screw it up.

And you just did.

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