Episode 11 Dragons' Den

-EVAN DAVIS:

-These are the Dragons.

Wealthy, well-connected, innovative and influential.

Each week, they make or break the dreams

of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

So if you keep losing money the way you're losing money,

when do you run out of money?

-In about four months' time.

-So you're really in big trouble, then.

Yes.

Did you interrupt me to make the very same point I was making, Piers?

I'm just checking.

I don't know what the world's coming to.

I mean, this is the most ridiculous idea.

But you said in three years you'll make £2.5 million.

That is a delusional comment.

Right. I'll take a punt with you.

So this is an offer, but it's got a big caveat.

Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...

..telecoms giant Peter Jones...

..and hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne

have between them struck deals worth more than £7 million in the Den.

But ready to fight for the next shrewd investment is the creator

of her own world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen,

and cloud computing pioneer Piers Linney.

The multimillionaires will give each entrepreneur just 3 minutes to pitch

their idea and then interrogate them on every aspect of their business.

To face them takes nerve and vision,

so who will leave with the Dragons' money?

Welcome to Dragons' Den, where budding entrepreneurs get the chance

to pitch their inventions and ideas to five self-made

millionaires in the hope of securing investment.

Some will earn life-changing rewards.

The rest leave with nothing.

First up tonight an entrepreneur who thinks

he has the power to electrify the Den with a product that promises to

save both energy and money.

But being environmentally friendly doesn't always guarantee the green

stuff from the Dragons.

Hi. Good day to you all.

Have you ever walked into a room and found that lights are left on,

TVs, games consoles or, you know, a charger?

This used to happen to me regularly. I have four children.

I would walk into the bedroom

and it would be lit up like Blackpool illuminations.

Um, I was getting frustrated looking at my energy bills which were always

rising and I was getting frustrated moaning at the kids all the time to

turn things off.

So having a kind of entrepreneurial mindset, I found myself

sat down and the answer was staring at me from the corner of the room.

It was a home alarm occupancy sensor.

I used my engineering background in sensor

and wireless communications background to take that and turn it

into something that would switch off lights and appliances automatically.

OK. So three years later, lots of blood, sweat and tears.

I now have this shiny gadget you see before you called the energyEGG.

And the energyEGG is available with major high-street retailers.

It retails at £39.99.

Um, and it can save you £60 in your electric bills over

the course of a year in a living room.

Let me show you how easy it is to use. You take it out of the box.

You put the battery in the back of it.

You press the button

and it will sync up with the purpose-built control adapters.

So here you've got a control adapter.

You've got a power strip and you've got a light switch.

So it will control all of these to switch off your lights

and appliances. You put it down beside your TV and that's it.

It will start saving you money.

You walk into a room, the lights will automatically switch on.

You walk out of the room and the lights

and appliances will automatically switch off.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to present to you today.

I'd be happy to take any questions that you have.

An energising pitch from Brian O'Reilly from Glasgow.

He wants £50,000 for just 8% of his business,

selling his energy-saving devices.

But Peter Jones wants less of the sales patter

and more of the practicalities of his key product.

I don't think you've even explained this product at all.

You haven't shown us how it works.

You haven't shown us how it's installed.

You haven't shown us how it would work in an average house.

-You've got to get back to basics for your pitch.

-OK.

-Show us... How does it work?

-Absolutely.

You've got a control adapter there. This control adapter here.

-The first time you plug it in...

-So I get a control adapter with the egg?

With the egg. Yes. So that's John Lewis just now. If you went in...

Stop the advertising piece. Just get on with the explanation.

So you plug it in and the first time you press the button,

it will synchronise with the socket. Trust me. It's very simple to set up.

Anyone can do it. I apologise that I didn't...

Anybody can do it, but if they have the plug socket to plug in the wall,

they change their light switch

and no doubt when you want to go to a four or five gang,

you've got another product you've got to buy.

We did it based on customer feedback.

So some of the feedback that we had was... what do I do with my Sky+ box, for example?

Because I want to keep that on all the time.

So we developed a power strip that's got two permanently on sockets

and it's got four wirelessly controlled sockets.

Plus we've got a product roadmap where

we are building Wi-Fi technology into the energyEGG.

I've actually got a demo of a phone app with me just now.

And effectively you just press the buttons and it will...

..through your home Wi-Fi network send a signal to the different, um...

So that's the... The lights on and off.

And you can do that with the appliances as well.

So this egg and those devices today work with that app?

Not that egg.

I knew you'd say that.

So to get the next egg to work with that app, what does that need?

More money?

We could have a working energyEGG ready for the market

with about £15,000.

I mean...it's very simple. That's what I like about it.

Piers Linney has discovered a component of Brian's business that

could fit neatly into his cloud computing portfolio.

Now Duncan Bannatyne wants to focus his energies on the company's finances.

Did you say you're selling this at the moment in John Lewis.

Yes, I did. And on Tesco direct.

-So what is your financial turnover in the last year, then?

-Um, £33,000.

And what's your gross profit and net profit?

Um, it was £7,000 for net and our gross was -£120,000.

It's the other way round.

-It's the other way round, but you lost £120,000?

-Yes.

What's your projection for the year going ahead

if you don't get an investment?

-Um, £200,000.

-Turnover?

-Yes.

-So how are you funding all these losses?

Um, we've got investors just now.

All right. How many investors have you got? Who owns the company?

-Let's do that.

-OK. I own 40% of the company.

And there are nine shareholders, six investors.

Right. And how much... Sorry, what percentage do they own?

Um, well, I owned 40%, so they own the other 60%.

So if you keep losing money the way you're losing money,

when do you run out of money?

We run out of money in about four months' time.

-So you're really in big trouble then.

-Yes.

-Are your investors willing to put more money in?

-Yes.

So you're not in big trouble then.

You're only in big trouble if you run out of money

and nobody wants to put more money in.

-OK. Yeah.

-But will you put more money in it or are you skint?

-I'm skint.

-So they will take a bigger share.

-Potentially, yes.

Yeah. I think you're in a lot of trouble then, Brian.

Not good for the inventor as Duncan Bannatyne detects

some major cracks in energyEGG's balance sheet.

And Kelly Hoppen is underwhelmed by the company's struggling sales.

I think you've kind of missed the boat slightly

because you obviously have created something that is incredibly useful,

saves energy, but, um, the product is in John Lewis

and is not really making sales.

And that is a great platform for you to start selling in.

I would buy one of those,

but it's not something that I think I would invest in.

-For that reason, I'm out.

-OK. Thank you.

Kelly Hoppen has no instinct to invest

and makes an abrupt exit from the deal.

Can Piers Linney uncover a brighter future for the company?

-So what's your forecast next year?

-Um, £1.2 million.

Have you got any orders to show you can get from 200 K this year

to 1.2 million next year?

I'm confident that we will have an order...

..purchase order value of £80,000 in about a month's time.

-That's one order.

-Yeah.

I'm confident that we will have agreed with a large facilities

management company another order for £60,000.

Um, I like it, but you've got a big problem in your business structure.

To get me involved in a business that...at 8%

and to really get my attention - that ain't going to happen.

But you've now embedded a structure in your organisation that doesn't

allow somebody like me to own an enough of a chunk of the business to

really give it what it needs.

If you don't mind me asking, Deborah,

what kind of shareholding did you have in mind?

I would certainly be looking at something beyond 25%.

If you took on 25% of the business, then I would be...

..I would be sitting around, I think, 20%, 24%, 25%, 26% I'd end up owning.

-I'd need my wee capitalisation table.

-How much more money do you need?

-About £100,000.

-So double that. So Deborah... We might...

I might invest and give you... ask for 30%.

The other investors are going to put a similar amount of money in.

That's now 60%.

You're then down to something with a two in front of it.

So will you get out of bed in the morning with the same...

Are you making...

Did you interrupt me to make the very same point I was making, Piers?

-I'm just checking.

-No. Because...no.

Because if you did, you've kind of broken my flow of conversation.

It would be a lot easier for me

if I could just have a conversation and follow that conversation.

-Unless you want half a million.

-It makes it really difficult.

To quickly answer Piers' question, yes, I would get out of bed in the morning.

-Sorry.

-All right. OK, guys. Um, you're... I'm out.

The Den is crackling with tension as the Dragons' squabbling

results in a sharp exit from Deborah Meaden.

Could the lights be about to go out on Brian's pitch?

-Duncan Bannatyne is next to decide.

-Deborah is right, you know.

If she offers you 25%, you drop to 30%.

So you'll have less shareholding than some of your investors.

And that actually doesn't actually help

when you get out of bed in the morning.

You wake up and drive to work and go in and you have a bad day

and I think that's a major problem.

Um, I think if I invested your shareholding would come down

that low you'd leave and I'd end up having to run the business

or paying someone else to run it.

So I'm afraid I'm out.

Another Dragon declined the opportunity to invest.

Has Peter Jones heard anything to give him a change of heart?

-So, Brian... I have been... I don't feel like I'm grumpy.

-You are.

But I think it's because I got a bit frustrated

because I think you're incredibly credible.

I think you've taken investment to build a product.

Your biggest problem is that you fallen into what I would say

a midmarket trap.

You need to, for me,

differentiate to a whole bigger degree than just this egg.

You need to have a home solution or a home kit,

which I think would work for you.

But it's not something that I would like to invest in

because for £50,000, you need another £400,000.

And then maybe you've got a chance of making it.

So Brian, I'm going to wish you all very best of luck, but I'm out.

Thank you.

Peter Jones has declared his hand,

leaving Piers Linney the last Dragon standing.

Can he see a way around the thorny issue of that complicated share structure?

So you're asking an investor - me - to give you some money today,

negotiate a deal with your other investors to keep you interested

-and they're not here.

-The existing investors have given me a kind of...

-..some bandwidth in terms of, you know, negotiating.

-OK.

If I said to you I'll give you £50,000.

I want 30% of the company

but it's all coming off your existing investors,

so you stay where you are, would they agree to that?

-Potentially.

-But they're not here, are they?

-They're not.

Right. I'll take a punt with you.

So this is an offer, but it's got a big caveat.

So I will give you £50,000, all the money, for 30% of the business.

But it's coming off the other investors. That's it.

And if you can't agree that with them once you've left the Den,

then there is no deal.

OK. Yeah, yeah. That's...

-I'll take that back to the investors.

-Good luck.

Thank you, Piers.

A handshake, an agreement

and light at the end of the tunnel for the entrepreneur who leaves

the Den with a promising business proposition.

I was particularly interested in Piers

because I knew that he was involved in cloud computing.

I believe that Piers has the background and the knowledge to

really help us progress as a business and develop our product roadmap.

So a deal with a twist from Piers Linney,

the Dragon who will go to any lengths to get an investment.

I like it.

I've spotted a design problem.

He'll happily still a deal from under the other Dragons' noses.

So all the money.

-But for 30%.

-You undercut us, didn't you?

£100,000, but for 15%.

-Flipping hell.

-The full 60 K for 10% of the whole thing.

If it's what it takes to get an investment,

the Den's new boy is also happy to canvass his CV.

I've been in pharmaceutical research, record labels, dance music,

talent management, telecoms, corporate finance, technology.

I used to value companies for a living.

I've built businesses that are worth millions.

Tens of millions over the last five years, during three recessions.

You name it, I've done it.

The cloud computing giant may have sky-high success,

but he's still got his finger on the common man's pulse.

Now, luckily for me my days of wearing suits are well

and truly over.

A lot of people that need to dispose of nappies don't drink lattes.

Especially not at five pounds each.

I don't live in the country like some of the other Dragons.

If I got a chainsaw out of my garden,

somebody would probably call the police.

You would ask the Dragon, you know, what they're going to bring to

the party, but I wouldn't mind asking Piers what he's going to bring.

Youth.

THEY LAUGH

Good answer.

But even though he's the Den's Mr Nice Guy,

get on the wrong side of Piers Linney

and you'll soon know about it.

Unless you're willing to get into that lift, come out the other side

and call whoever you work for and resign, it doesn't work.

If you come in front of a panel of investors

and you say I want to manufacture rubber hot water bottles,

which I can't protect against people in China that churn out

hundreds of thousands, would you invest in it? No.

You don't know your numbers, you don't know your product,

you don't know your market, and you want £1 million.

It's just unbelievable, actually.

I'm just pretty upset,

but I'm just going to leave it there because if I carry on it's going to get messy.

So I'm out.

Next into the Den is Erika Brodnock.

She's an entrepreneur who's used some difficult personal experiences

to come up with a product range she's hoping will improve the

emotional well-being of children.

Let's see what the Dragons make of it.

Hello, Dragons.

My name's Erika Brodnock and I'm CEO of Karisma Kidz, and mum of five.

Karisma Kidz is a fun, safe, engaging brand that helps children to

manage their moods and build self-esteem.

Today we're asking for £60,000 in exchange for 10% of our company.

Five years ago, I was diagnosed as having bipolar disorder and told

that the only option was medication every day for the rest of my life.

I refused to accept that and I found some amazing alternative tools

and techniques that enabled me to completely turn my life around.

Having got my life back on track I started to look at the effects

that my illness had had on my own children.

I had done some research and I found that my children weren't alone.

One in four experiences anxiety and depression, with one in ten

children being diagnosed with a mental health disorder.

All children can benefit from being able to build self-esteem

and manage their emotions.

Over the last 12 months,

we've built a range of products that have teamed personal development

tools, education and play in a way that's never been done before.

We've been receiving really high acclaim and we've already won

an innovation award and we were named as a top 20 start-up of 2012.

With your help, we'd like to complete the build of the online

platform that is Moodville, scale it and launch it to market.

Would it be OK for me to give you a doll each?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

Thank you very much.

We've recorded ten positive self-esteem building

messages on each of the dolls.

-I am a Karisma Kid and so are you.

-I'm a Karisma Kid and so are you.

-You're a hero, just like me.

-Oh, thank you.

I know you've had a bad day, sweetheart, but hang in there.

You can do it.

So come on, Dragons.

Jump on the Trust Train and take a ride around Moodville with me

and the Karisma Kidz.

Thank you very much for listening.

A charismatic pitch from Erika Brodnock from London.

She's looking for £60,000 for her doll

and app range designed to help children.

-DOLL:

-Peter Jones is the favourite Dragon.

You can't get much better than that, can you?

The mood in the Den may be jovial, but Piers Linney looks confused.

-Erika. Hi, I'm Piers.

-Hello, Piers.

-You said quite a lot.

-I still don't get it.

-So this is Moodville.

And in Moodville there are areas such as Fear Farm and Angry Alley

and then they go back into Love Lane, Gratitude Gardens and as I say,

they take a ride around the Trust Train too.

They're able to fill in profiles which link back to both schools

and their parents.

And so children are able to make mention of how it is that they're

feeling on any given day, what their favourite things are

and also if there are things that they don't like

so that people are aware of what it is

that that child needs, especially for when babysitters are coming around.

So, um...

So the children are asked, "How are you feeling?" Or is a parent

looking at what they're doing and saying, "Right, they're in the

"Gratitude Garden" or, I don't know,

the moody lawn or whatever it might be and then saying, "Oh, they're not

"feeling very happy," and then going to interact with them off-line?

-It's a combination of both.

-Is the answer yes?

-Yes.

-Thank you.

How do you make money? I can see charms down here.

-You know, £24.99 for a Wow Star.

-OK.

So we make money by selling the platform into schools

and they subscribe to the platform.

We've got schools that are already interested in taking it in.

And, um, after that the app will offer the opportunity for parents

to subscribe to charms that will reward their children.

OK. So I'm a parent. The school has subscribed for this.

They're paying you a licence fee for access.

So are you saying that if my child does something great at school,

I have to buy charms?

No. You're given a certain amount of charms.

You can actually buy more charms if there was more good behaviour.

And what we're doing is saying that positivity breeds positivity.

If a school issues a child with a Wow Star at school,

the child is then feeling wow about that.

A parent is then notified that their child's had a Wow Star at school

and they can then reinforce that positive behaviour.

So nobody's going to buy those.

Your way of making money is by selling the platform.

So is this a...

In addition to licensing, merchandise, as well as publishing.

-Is this a therapy or... What is it?

-It's a toy.

It is a toy that has the added value of teaching...

Doesn't sound like much fun.

Erika is still a long way from convincing a sceptical Piers Linney to invest.

But Deborah Meaden is harbouring much stronger views.

-Erika, hi. I'm Deborah.

-Hello, Deborah.

You come across really well. You look great.

And I can see the thinking behind it. Um...

I don't like it.

The minute you can say, "Do you know what? It's OK.

"I don't have to watch that child.

"I don't have to interact any more because I can gather the data

"that I get from that interaction on the screen."

I think that's worse, not better.

See, the children are playing on the computers

whether they're playing this game or they're playing another game.

I think that by playing this game,

they're giving their parents information that they need in terms

of looking at how they are feeling that will then spark conversation.

Yeah, but parents who are having to go onto a computer to find out

how their children are...

It just feels intrinsically wrong.

You see, the problem there, Erika,

is I don't think schools should be paying a licence fee for toys.

I think it gets even worse than that. How much does that cost?

-The interactive doll is £39.95.

-£39.95.

The actual commercial way that you make money is to take those children

that you have got engaged in schools and then you go and you sell.

-That's not true at all.

-So a doll for £39.95.

That's not true at all because schools is one channel.

It's not the only channel.

All right. Park schools. Now let's talk about children in their home.

OK.

So children in their home are playing on games all the time and then they

end up buying a range of products that come off the back of said games.

These products have the added benefit of giving positive messages,

allowing parents to record positive messages on for their children

and building the child's self-esteem and confidence.

Or the negative benefit of parents buying something that they

believe is going to be good and help their children

and then you hook into that and try and sell them something for £39.95.

No. Because they don't...

It's not a prerequisite that you play on the platform

and then you have to buy the toy.

That's not what our business is based on in its entirety.

You don't need to waste your time on me.

You absolutely can see I'm not going to change my mind and invest in you.

-No, that's fine.

-I'm out.

Harsh criticism of the entrepreneur's business

model from an incredulous Deborah Meaden.

But Peter Jones has been watching with interest.

I feel you've been given a hard time.

So do I.

It's hard, isn't it, listening to all that?

You've held yourself together... incredibly well.

I don't agree with the route that Deborah was going down.

My issue with what you've done here is that I think you have come up

with something that actually is very, very good.

I think that the confusion is you've tried to come and pitch it

and turn it into a business, and I think you could tweak that very,

very easily in terms of the fact that what you're trying to sell...

..you don't sell.

OK.

So you don't make the money on selling these tokens

and these Wow Stars.

And the school, because I think this is a school product that you're

trying to push, you focus on the licence fee rather than the parent

having to pay for all of these things like the dolls

and these extra tokens outside of it.

And for me, if you'd pitched that, I'd kind of get it.

And that's where I'm in a halfway house

between exactly where Deborah's there saying...

I'm sorry, Peter. You're not in a halfway house.

I absolutely totally agree with that.

If she'd just come in saying, "I've got a great toy...

"I've got a great program for schools to engage with children.

"I'm going to make no money out of it." We are agreeing totally.

It is this that causes me the problem.

I guess all I will say in response to that is that

I came with an idea for a business.

What I'm seeking from the Dragons is support in taking that business to

market in the most effective way that will generate a commercially

successful business, but then also help as many children as possible.

A canny response from the entrepreneur, but she shows

she's willing to budge on that divisive business model.

But Kelly Hoppen has an altogether different concern.

All children need confidence. All kids, you know...

Kids get bullied at school. I was bullied at school.

I know what it was like.

Um, but I think, for me, I'm just...

..I'm looking at this and I think it's fantastic.

It just scares me a little bit in that you're giving information about

children to, um...people that perhaps were not their family.

And that you are, um, perhaps helping them

in a way that is not endorsed perhaps by psychologists.

I mean, how do you know what you're doing is correct, is what I'm trying to say.

We have a couple of psychologists on the team.

We've got a clinical psychologist on the team that has given us

a letter of endorsement that we have available for you to have a look at,

as well as a research psychologist that specialises in play.

And the only people that would have access to the child's account

would be their parents, but they would just get the information so

they could pass it on to whoever they saw fit in terms of babysitters

or what have you, um, and schools.

I don't like it. It's like Big Brother watching.

The doll itself, I don't have a problem with because yes, that is

going to give a child confidence.

The fact that it's linked into this...

..this system that you've created... I don't like it. I really don't.

That on its own, fine. Hate this.

At the moment, we're in a stage of development.

The online platform has been started, but it's not complete.

So there is the ability to make changes to that.

There's no point in trying to sell it to me because I'm out.

The news that the business has some expert backers couldn't persuade

Kelly Hoppen to invest.

Now two Dragons are out

and it's time for Duncan Bannatyne to have his say.

What concerns me is this encourages a child to go on a computer

and many children have got computers in their bedrooms,

they go up to it and they get a bit bored with this

so they switch to something else like Facebook.

The fact is it's encouraging a child on the computer

and so I can't invest in it.

So therefore I'm out.

I think there may be an application as a therapy,

but, you know, dropping out this stuff, selling people things,

unless that's part of the package for the therapy.

People know what they're getting,

what they're paying for in the package.

But other than that, just... It's too much.

I don't get it, so I'm out.

Four Dragons are out, leaving only Peter Jones left in the race.

Will he back up his support for the product with hard cash?

If I just take the doll out of this business plan...

..I still quite like what you've created.

And I don't also have a problem with the school funding it.

We get enough money ploughed into our schools

and actually I see this more as a social enterprise...

That, outside of the Den, would get my wholehearted support

and actually probably would get a bit of money from me.

And that's the only reason why I congratulate you for coming up with

it, congratulate you on the journey, but it's not an investment for me.

-So for that reason, I'm out.

-OK.

-Good luck, Erika.

-DOLL:

-You're amazing.

THEY LAUGH

I know.

Despite a brave attempt to defend her product,

Erika couldn't convince the Dragons her idea was investment material.

Karisma Kidz certainly provoked some strong opinions,

but only cash counts in the Den and she leaves with nothing.

I completely believe in my product.

I think that Deborah's wrong in everything that she said

and Karisma Kidz is a force for good.

So far tonight only one entrepreneur has managed to seal a deal with

-a Dragon.

-Thank you, Piers.

Will any of these plucky business wannabes follow suit

and secure the cash they so desperately need?

You said you had this in Selfridge's.

What happened at the end of the trial period?

-Unfortunately we didn't get to stay in.

-Yeah. Because you flopped.

-Are seagulls endangered?

-That's an albatross.

-Oh, is it?

-HE LAUGHS

It's a big seagull.

Former Royal Marine Simon Weatherall is next into the Den,

hoping to build a new career for himself with a business selling

a clothing range aimed at the safety conscious fitness fanatic.

Hi. My name is Simon Weatherall. I'm an ex Royal Marine commando.

I left the Marines in 2003 after the Iraq war.

I'm here today to pitch for £80,000 for 30% of my company Glow Faster.

Did you know you're 11 times more likely to be hit

and killed by traffic at night rather than in daylight hours?

High-visibility clothing

and single-point lighting reduces this by 50%.

To me, 50% wasn't enough. So I invented Glow Faster stripes.

Glow Faster offers a total body lighting solution.

It can be powered and operated using a mobile phone or a mobile device.

It's fun and it's motivating.

It allows traffic to see the hazards in front or behind.

In three years' time,

I've calculated the business to be worth £2.5 million.

So it's a great return on your investment.

I've had a lot of interest in this product,

including that of one of the UK's largest police forces

and local authorities.

If this product truly helps to save lives,

it's got to be worth the investment.

So watch your investment grow faster with Glow Faster. Thanks very much.

Can I just...

Can I just say, Simon, that is

the most unfriendly children's crossing man I've ever seen.

Lollipop man. In my life. Just give us a little smile.

-He's not really a children's crossing man.

-I got that.

-I gathered that. Is he your dad?

-Yeah. He's my dad. Yeah.

THEY LAUGH

-Can you tell?

-Yeah.

Thanks very much, guys. That's all.

A pitch with military precision from Royal Marine turned inventor Simon Weatherall.

He wants £80,000 to give his light up road safety system a financial glow.

But Peter Jones is in the mood for mischief.

Simon, can you just go and use your Christmas tree lights or...?

It wouldn't look quite as good.

Um, you could effectively put some other lights on.

This is electroluminescent, so it allows it to be flexible.

This runs for eight hours off of a single triple-A battery.

But you don't need it to run for eight hours, do you?

-Unless you're, you know, running two marathons at night.

-Yeah. That's...

..that's a fair point. Um, but it will be efficient.

You would probably be all right running down the high street in that

tracksuit, being a Royal Marine, because you can look after yourself.

Yeah.

But do you not think you might attract people outside a pub

looking at you running down looking like something out of The Matrix?

Do you not think that you might get the Mickey taken out of you?

Potentially.

I think there's a certain user group that would like to use this product.

From what I've seen, I've had a lot of interest from people.

It's very viral. It spreads well.

As a business, I think it's a really great opportunity.

And also, I mean, for yours to be seen you'd have to run at night

sideways, wouldn't you?

I think there's a lighting pattern, so you can see in front and behind.

But there's nothing at the front or the back.

So unless you're going to get hit by a car side on...

I think you can have different layouts with the designs.

The key thing, as I say, is the attachment.

But one of the most important things is this bioluminescence.

So it's actually lighting the limbs,

not just lighting a single point on the front.

Why can't you have...

..like, a Bannatyne T-shirt with those lights on it?

You could. I've actually got patented a detachable system for the lights.

And also it can be attached to any type of clothing,

whether it's trousers, tops.

-So can I see it? How it's attached.

-I've got you some jackets.

I just want to see how it's attached to the...

Despite some early criticism of his product,

Simon is managing to keep the Dragons on side.

But the opportunity to take a closer look has unearthed a potential

design flaw to Piers Linney.

-If I pull this out...

-Yeah.

-Getting it back in...

-You know those, like, plastic bags where you have to reseal them?

-Yeah.

It's like spending half an hour trying to reseal one of those things

that's this long and I'm sure this is a prototype,

so you'll improve that,

but it is a pain to get that back in.

It's a very... I mean, I agree.

There are methods that I've got and I've looked at.

Developing those methods is obviously the next level for some of this.

I believe it's workable at the moment.

It will take a couple of minutes to put it back in.

If you want to pursue this,

it needs to be something that can be easily attached.

And sewing some sort of plastic tube into clothing which you have to

integrate into the clothing

and then fit this into it isn't going to work.

This isn't going to fly in its current form.

If you can evolve it, maybe it will. This won't, so I'm afraid I'm out.

Thank you very much.

I personally don't think the design works.

It just looks like you've attached the sort of things you

get at concerts that you pull and put round your neck or your wrist.

Um, but I wish you luck with it, but I'm not going to invest.

-I'm sorry. Thank you.

-OK. Thank you very much.

Frustration for Simon as two Dragons retreat from negotiations.

Now Peter Jones wants to know more about the military man.

-How long did you spend in Iraq?

-About four months, five months.

-Wow.

Well, I'll say congratulations for that

because there's nothing better than somebody doing that.

What else have you done, business-wise?

I started a fitness company working for myself.

I then got an online business alongside that which, um,

has got a mobile phone app and about 12,000 members.

It's effectively a website that creates fitness and nutrition plans

that are tailored specifically for you.

So you would put in your criteria of what you were looking for -

lose weight, tone up, get fit.

You'd then effectively put in what your dietary requirements were.

It will calculate you the shopping list that you need

and then it automatically sends that to Tesco using an API and people

can download their shopping basket and get all the food delivered.

That's so much... That's such a better idea.

Why didn't you pitch that?

I believe that this is a much better idea.

I mean, obviously a difference in opinions there.

But I think, you know, I think this is a great product.

I really believe in it. I'm going to make it work, you know.

If it's with you guys today, then that would be fantastic,

but I will give my arms and legs before I, you know, get this to work.

-Really?

-Well, probably not.

-Don't do that.

THEY LAUGH

I wouldn't light up in the suit, then, would I?

It would only be a single point.

THEY LAUGH

The entrepreneur is certainly entertaining the troops,

but there's still no sign of any cash.

Is Duncan Bannatyne ready to offer some?

I think you should remain in the business you're in.

The fitness business. Um...

-..but for this business, I've got to say, I'm out.

-Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Simon, can I ask how much money have you put into this?

-About £3,000 to get it to where it is now.

-I'm relieved to hear that.

Because I think you presented very well. You come across very well.

But actually, fundamentally, you've identified

the core of this as safety and I'm just not as convinced as you

are that it is better than what we currently have.

So afraid I'm going to have to join the others

and declare myself out. So I'm out.

Thank you very much.

It looks like the glow is beginning to fade on Simon's

pitch, as four Dragons exit proceedings.

Only Peter Jones can save the entrepreneur from an immediate

exit from the Den.

You said in three years you'll make £2.5 million.

-That is a delusional comment.

-Sorry.

I calculated the business to be worth £2.5 million.

It will not be worth £2.5 million, and that's not a challenge.

It is impossible. That's the reason why I can't invest, Simon.

I wish you the very best of luck, but I won't investing today.

-I'm out.

-Thank you very much. Enjoy those jackets.

Thank you.

-Mine doesn't fit. It's too tight.

-Sorry.

-Lose some weight, then.

THEY LAUGH

I know a good trainer.

THEY LAUGH

The Dragons certainly enjoyed Simon's pitch,

but in the end, glow in the dark tracksuits just weren't their style.

Our next entrepreneurs thought they'd stand a better

chance of impressing this well-heeled panel

with their products aimed at the smarter dresser.

So first of all, forgive me for entering the Den without a tie on,

but there's good reason for that.

Chris Gibson thought his SuperTie invention took all the fuss

out of fastening the accessory.

To operate the tie, what you do is you flick the little catch here,

you slide it through, throw it over...

..slide it up into place and then you're done.

While Tony Higson had a no-crease solution to packing a suit.

The Freefold is a lightweight suit carrier.

It can be removed from any type of luggage, from a 25L backpack for a

cyclist up into a piece of carry-on luggage for the airline industry.

If you just bare with me, I'll very quickly get changed into something

a little bit more appropriate. Don't run away.

Back to Chris and his SuperTie.

The Dragons were divided on whether the tie maketh the man.

I love a tie. I always take pride in the way that I look.

I spent many years in the city in law wearing these things.

I think they're an absolutely pointless appendage.

-I think the day of the tie is over.

-Piers is so wrong...

..to say that the tie is finished.

A tie is such an important part of a man's wardrobe.

But where the Dragons all agreed was that a creased suit is sacrilege.

-You all right behind there?

-Sorry to keep you. Won't be a moment.

-And when Tony finally emerged from behind the screen...

-Ta-da.

..Piers Linney had some thoughts on how he had escaped the clutches of

those dreaded wrinkles.

What's your suit made out of?

This is just a standard polyester suit that I had.

Which don't tend to crease.

You put my suit in there, if I had a suit,

and took it out, it would not look anything like your suit.

Duncan Bannatyne wanted to know

whether the tie's retail success was as super as its name suggested.

-You said you had this in Selfridge's.

-That's right. Yes.

What happened at the end of the trial period?

-Unfortunately, we didn't get to stay in.

-Yeah. Because you flopped.

Well, some might say that,

but the way I see it is we actually performed extremely well.

In the end, none of the Dragons could be convinced either product

was suitable for investment.

I don't know what the world's coming to.

I mean, this is the most ridiculous idea.

So I think when you were at college or wherever it was

and having a problem tying your tie, you should have spent more time

learning to tie it properly instead of inventing this ridiculous thing.

It's not something I would invest in, especially not 80 K.

I can't see a reason why it would work anywhere,

so I'm really sorry, Chris. I'm out.

-So you like a man in a tie, Kelly Hoppen?

-I like a man in a tie.

So do I. There's actually something compelling about that, isn't there?

THEY LAUGH

Next up is mum of two Jo Kerley who has a product

she thinks can provide stress-free travel for parents.

Now, it's a suitcase, but a rather special one.

It's packed with all the components needed to keep the kids occupied.

Right.

Hi.

My name is Jo Kerley.

I'm the managing director and... of JK Worldwide

and the designer of the PlayAway case.

I'm here today to seek a £60,000 investment in my business

JK Worldwide.

Plus the advice and guidance of the Dragons.

My journey started three years ago when my husband

and I took our two young children on a long haul flight

and we found out just how stressful it was

actually travelling with children.

Since then I've made it my mission to create the ultimate travel

product for children.

This is it. It's the PlayAway case.

The PlayAway case is a really practical luggage item that offers

practical luggage space for clothing.

This reduces down on hold luggage fees for parents.

The front of the case removes very neatly, revealing the hidden

boardgame that children can play in the car or actually in the airport.

Once on the plane,

the main carcass of the case fits in the overhead cabin.

This is the PlayPod.

And the PlayPod comes complete with loads of activities.

Playing cards based on man-made attractions from around the world,

the activity pads, the crayons, the dice

and the counters to play the game.

We've also created all of our own characters. They're The Pioneers.

All of them are endangered species or at risk.

We've been going through two years of research and development,

and what we've actually achieved is our first container of product

arriving in the UK yesterday.

We've got quite a diverse business opportunity

here in terms of licensing and in terms of sales and distribution.

And we have a signed letter of intent for distribution to

the whole of the US and Asia with the fifth-largest supplier in the US.

Thank you for your time.

We would welcome a Dragon on board our adventure

because this is the biggest one we've ever had.

So can I interest anybody to have a play? Would you like to?

-There you are.

-Thank you.

A compact pitch from Jo Kerley from Ipswich.

Please do. Yes.

She's looking for £60,000 to get her children's luggage

-business off the ground.

-You may look at the PlayPod on the front.

On offer is a 20% stake for any Dragon who comes on board.

Duncan Bannatyne is on the case with some questions.

-It looks very sturdy.

-It is.

-You've got a container load just arrived?

-Absolutely.

-We ordered in 1,400 units of which we'd already presold 1,100 units.

-OK.

-So who have they sold to?

-Small independents and groups like Fenwick.

OK. So what did they cost you to make?

They cost me £19.33. And the trade price is £33.33.

-And we're retailing them at £79.99.

-The company JK Worldwide.

-Yes.

I want to look at its balance sheet. Does it have debt?

We have a £19,000 overdraft

and I have input £160,000 in the form of a director's loan.

£179,000 is a lot of debt.

And it's a lot of debt to make before you start making a profit

and that could be one of the issues.

Some mid-pitch turbulence for Jo as Duncan Bannatyne unearths some

serious financial baggage.

Now Piers Linney wants to know just how child-friendly the product is.

-Hi, Jo. I'm Piers.

-Hi, Piers.

-Um...

So I'm just trying to work out just fundamentally, I mean,

my daughters would get bored of that board game very quickly.

-So that's one issue with it.

-I agree with you.

Children will get bored with that. So we've created sticky games.

And you know the covering that you have on your mobile phone?

We've created nine different games that will go into that recess.

And you've got the characters.

So what you're adding there though is a whole different facet

to your business.

Well, what we looked at was when we started the business

we wanted to licence some characters but the cost of the characters was

prohibitive for us, so we created our own.

Because of each of them being an endangered species, and because also

they're pioneers, it offers inspiration and education by stealth.

-Are seagulls endangered?

-That's an albatross.

-Oh, is it?

THEY LAUGH

-It's a big seagull.

-That's an albatross.

-Sorry.

-It looked like a seagull to me.

-That's Amy Jo, our albatross.

-Not endangered in Camden, I can tell you that for a fact.

-No.

-That's our albatross.

-OK.

Piers Linney may not know a seagull from an albatross,

but he can spot a good investment a mile off.

While he mulls over the proposition,

Peter Jones wants to discuss the product's design.

-Jo.

-Yes. Hi.

-Um, I mean, congratulations.

You've created a product which is great.

But let's get back to reality. It's just a case.

Now, I know that to you, being the inventor,

you will continually argue about this main piece that comes off.

Are kids going to open it up like this and sit there like that and...

..it's...

See, what we've done with that is by putting the clips on the side,

it actually opens as a book.

What I'm saying is that I think that you've created something that

all of this goes in here... and it's the same as any other case.

And when I go on a plane with my children, as I do,

they take a case like this. But they take the things out of the case.

That goes into the hold. They've got the thing that they want.

It's the specific tablet, iPad or game.

And as a result of that,

I would prefer and my children would prefer to have a rucksack.

OK.

And that's the reason, the only reason why

I can't see an opportunity to invest in this business.

So Joe, I'm sadly going to say for that reason I'm out.

A case of tough love for Jo as Peter Jones takes himself

out of the investment equation.

Which way will Kelly Hoppen go?

I don't like the product.

I feel like the boardgame on there, great as it is the first time you

-open it, by the next trip they're bored with it.

-Absolutely.

And I take that on board, which is why we created the sticky games.

It doesn't matter if you've got ten sticky things.

Eventually they're... How many are you going to make? Um...

It's just not something that I would invest in. I'm afraid I'm out.

-Jo.

-Hi.

-Children don't worry about the practicalities of travel.

-That is their parents' problem.

-Absolutely.

What they want is they want what they want to play

with on the aeroplane when they want to play with it.

And I'm afraid I agree with Peter. I don't think that's enough.

It's not good enough to hold their attention. The game certainly isn't.

So the child, and you know the child usually wins in these situations

because if they don't... if they're not entertained, boy,

can they make life difficult with travel.

-So I might as well tell you really, really quickly, I'm out.

-Thank you.

Jo, I mean...

I'm going to ask myself would I buy one because I have a daughter

that's just about in this age bracket. And the answer is no.

And if the answer is no, I'm afraid it's not something I'd invest in.

-So I'm afraid I'm out too.

-OK. Thank you.

Jo is four Dragons down, with only one to go.

Can Duncan Bannatyne see beyond the company's debts

and offer the entrepreneur a cash lifeline?

I quite like it, Jo.

I don't agree with Peter's assessment that this keeps falling

down, cos I think it can sit up quite easily.

The problem is the debt.

You know, if I invest in this...

..you've got a director's loan account.

You're going to take that out. When am I ever going to see a return?

Having the director's loan as equity wouldn't be a problem.

It was never an intention to take that out.

-Where did you get £160,000 to invest in this?

-My family. My friends.

Basically my mum and everybody who saw the product and liked it.

So if that £160,000 was converted into equity,

I'd be willing to make you an offer for the full amount, £60,000.

But I want... I want 35% of the company.

OK.

And, Duncan, could we, for that, get your advice and guidance and help us

with marketing and getting the product tailored to market?

Of course.

You know, any business I invest in, I get involved in all aspects of it.

So yes. Of course. Yeah.

-Then I'd love 35%.

-Fantastic.

-What?!

I'd rather have a small part of something large.

-So thank you very much indeed.

-Well done.

Jo has done it.

She had to give away more equity than she'd planned to,

but she's bagged herself a deal with a highly experienced

multimillionaire in the process.

That was a dark horse, Mr Bannatyne.

You know what? It's got to go £60,000 for 35% with no debt.

It is a real turning point.

To have a Dragon on board with your business is massive.

It's the difference between getting to the stratosphere or just making

a business tick along.

And I think with Duncan on board we're going to make the stratosphere.

-It looks good on you.

-I can see your face on it at the airport.

THEY LAUGH

The Dragon.

I can see the new Bannatyne character coming in.

-See ya, guys.

-THEY LAUGH

There you go.

That was definitely worth the money.

That was a ridiculous investment. Don't ever come back into the Den.

Good riddance.

If ever you wanted evidence that when it comes to business

the experts don't always agree, we've had plenty in the Den today.

Both Duncan Bannatyne and Piers Linney went it alone,

spotting an opportunity where the others saw none.

Now they have to prove it can pay to stick your neck out.

You'll have your own view, so join the conversation about all

of tonight's pitches on Twitter using the hashtag #dragonsden.

-Next week in the Den...

-People want it. Everybody wants it.

-I can't sell enough. I can't make enough.

-So what am I?

-So you're Mungo the Monkey.

-I'm Mungo.

-You're Mungo.

What's the cuddly toy called?

I wouldn't want to invest in something like this.

People are being sued all the time.

I've had blazing rows over 1% of my business. This is gold dust.

You don't just give it away.

You've only got one order by the sound of it.

-No. We've got Fenwicks and Bentalls which we've delivered.

-Well then say!