Episode 12 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons.

Wealthy,

well-connected,

innovative,

and influential.

Each week, they make or break the dreams

of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

I have some experience in getting this to market,

so I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to make you an offer as well.

-You're doing quite well today.

-I'll match your offer.

I'll match your offer, Piers.

I think it's worth more.

So I'm going to offer you all the money...

I think it could... it could be big...

..so, I'm going to make you an offer.

Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...

..telecoms giant Peter Jones...

..and hotel and health-club owner Duncan Bannatyne...

have, between them, struck deals worth more than

£7 million in the Den.

But ready to fight for the next shrewd investment is the creator of

her own world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen,

and cloud computing pioneer Piers Linney.

The multimillionaires will give each entrepreneur just three minutes

to pitch their idea and then interrogate them

on every aspect of their business.

To face them takes nerve and vision

so who will leave with the Dragons' money?

Welcome to Dragons' Den, where promising entrepreneurs pitch

to five multimillionaire investors, hoping to get the cash they need

to realise their business ambitions.

Now, discovered almost by accident, the Post-it note is surely

one of the most successful stationery products ever,

and our first entrepreneur, John MacLeod,

thinks he's come up with the next step in its evolution.

LIFT BELL CHIMES

Hello, Dragons, my name is John MacLeod,

I'm a director in LUX Creations Ltd

and today we're looking for a £50,000 investment

in return for 10% equity in our company.

Lux Creations is a design company

and our first product range are the revolutionary Clear Notes.

Clear Notes are the world's only

transparent and reusable adhesive sticky note.

Clear Notes allow you to make annotations and drawings

over any document or hard surface where

you need to see the information below the note.

With our specially designed ink,

we have pens where the ink is quick drying

and will not erase by your hand or when you put it between some files.

However, using our specially designed pens and attached erasers,

they can be removed so the note can be reused time and time again.

We've officially launched early this year, in February,

since then we've gone on to acquire a contract with the largest

contract stationer in the UK.

Uh, they turn over approximately £230 million and have contracts for

the likes of the government, the NHS, um, and also the high street banks.

That has also led to a deal with one of the biggest buying groups

in the UK, um, and earlier this week,

we exhibited at the London Stationery Show to which

we received a fantastic response for our product. From the show,

we've had lots of international enquiries,

so we have contacts to follow up with

distributors in North America, Central Europe and South Africa.

Thank you for your time and I'd like to invite any questions.

An accomplished pitch from this 23-year-old entrepreneur.

John is looking for £50,000 for 10% of his new stationery product

business, but Deborah Meaden has disappointing news from the outset.

John, I need to declare, um,

this is going to be quite an awkward one for me

-because I'm invested in a business that I think would conflict...

-Yep.

-..um, with this and specifically with this product...

-OK.

-..so, I won't be able to invest.

-No, I understand who that company is.

-OK.

-Thanks very much.

-I'm out.

What business is that, Deborah?

A magic whiteboard that... I need to tell you this so that you don't

-later think that we are...that I'm copying, but we're...

-No.

..we're producing a very similar product.

John. I'm... I'm intrigued.

I do know Magic Whiteboard and Deborah's investment,

cos it came from the Den.

Hmm.

I also know, because I spend time with Deborah and Theo

a little bit, that it's highly successful.

-Yeah.

-So, I'm kind of thinking here...

..have you got something that is better than, potentially,

something that Deborah has got...

up her sleeve.

Do you have any...?

This isn't a product that can...

You can't take any level of protection over this at all,

-can you?

-We have a patent pending on the product in Britain

and we have a trademark on the logo as well, so...

And what's the patent pending based upon?

Um, it's the use of the adhesive on this type of... Well,

there's certain types of plastics that can be used for this product,

so they act the same way with the ink

and the adhesive adheres in the correct way.

Um, so nobody else could recreate that Britain.

And one great thing about the Post-it note is not just

the convenience factor, but also it's the fact that it's recyclable.

-That's right, yeah.

-Where do you stand with that, with your...?

-This product is 100% recyclable as well.

-It is?

-Yeah.

-I think it's really good, John.

-Thanks, Peter. I appreciate that.

On the surface, it seems the entrepreneur's off to a flying start.

But the Dragons are practised at getting beneath the surface

of a business plan.

Who's the large company that's bought product from you?

It's one of the biggest contract stationers,

it's office2office. They kind of lead into other buying groups as well,

so that's the deal that we've acquired to date.

Like I said, there's lots of leads from the stationery shows

-to be following up with.

-So, how many have you sold?

Uh, well, I mean, that deal, the only deal that we've had to date,

uh, approximately worth £50,000 to £100,000 over the next 12 months.

But how many have they actually bought or committed to buy?

Erm, they'll place their first order in November with the 2014 catalogue.

So, they haven't place an order yet?

They've put us in the catalogue, that's basically it, yeah.

What do you mean, "put you in the catalogue?" The catalogue's out now?

For the 2014 catalogue, it gets produced in November.

I think it gets 18,000 distributed to different dealers.

So, it's not in the catalogue?

Not this year, no. Next year's.

Have they given you a guarantee of being in the catalogue?

In essence, yes, I mean, I've got sort of a letter that explains

that and we've just had to do some paperwork, so...

-Let's look at the letter then.

-Sure, yeah.

Thanks very much. If you just talk to the other Dragons...

-OK, thank you.

-..and I'll read through it.

John, um, I've just managed to wipe off the ink with my finger on this.

If you write that down, give it five seconds,

-and then try and wipe it off, it won't come off.

-I did.

Look.

It just comes off if you wipe it.

Oh, yeah, but if you didn't lick your finger, maybe... I'm not sure.

-You're wetting it?

-Yeah, but...

-OK, John, let me tell you where I am.

-OK.

-And when you said you had...

they were putting you in the catalogue 2014...

-That's right, yeah.

-That's not what this says.

-OK.

"Your company's been selected for inclusion in our catalogue's

-"selection process..."

-Mm-hm.

-That doesn't mean

you'll go in the catalogue, that means

you can go through the selection process.

And you might make it in.

But, at the moment, you're not in the catalogue

-and, at the trade show you said you got a fantastic response...

-Yeah.

..you didn't get any orders. You haven't got an order.

Because of these things, it's such a very, very early-stage investment.

Um, I don't know... I don't have enough confidence to

believe that this is going to sell.

-And, so, for that reason, I've got to say that I'm out.

-OK.

A dramatic change of fortunes for the young entrepreneur

as the first Dragon bows out.

But will the rest of the Den be unnerved by the revelation

uncovered by Duncan Bannatyne?

I think, if you'd presented this at a fair,

you'd have a really good indication if this was going to sell.

People would have ordered from it. Um...

I'm just... It's not something that I feel confident in,

that I want to invest in, although half of me really likes it.

-Um, so I'm out, but good luck.

-Thank you, Kelly. I really appreciate that.

So, let's go through very carefully, what you've protected.

Basically, the adhesive. We've had to spend a lot of time developing

and going through ones that were too strong, they were peeling off

the paper, too weak, falling on the floor, if you put them

on this board. So, once we'd got the right type of adhesive that went

alongside that plastic that's sort of recyclable,

that's essentially what that patent is on that, so you couldn't use

that adhesive on those types of plastics.

You couldn't use YOUR adhesive,

or could somebody use a different adhesive on clear plastic?

Yeah, so, in essence, if it wasn't the type of plastic that's

recyclable, they could do, yes.

I'm not convinced by the protectability of it, to the extent

which you can protect this...

-Hmm.

-..cos there are too many moving parts

and I think somebody could come along and change something,

the kind of plastic, the adhesive, I don't know.

Good luck with it, but I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

Peter Jones is the last Dragon remaining.

Will his initial enthusiasm for Clear Notes now turn into cash?

I do think what you've presented is a lot better than I expected

when you unveiled the map of whatever it is there.

Um...

I had no idea what you were going to present, and then,

when you presented this, I kind of get it.

I'm pretty sure people will buy this.

Um, but I'm not overly convinced about investing in a business

that you're valuing at half a million pounds at this stage

and 50K is quite a lot to take a real punt on it.

So, I'm not going to invest, John...

because I just think that there would be other products out there

that will compete with this...

..that might do the same thing.

So, I'm going to say I'm out.

But I congratulate you on everything you've done.

I think you've presented a product really well and you've got

-something here that could be great.

-OK.

-I appreciate that.

-So, I hope I don't live to regret it.

-OK, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

-Good luck, John.

A near miss for John as he heads out without the £50,000 needed

to help grow his start-up stationery business.

I hope that's not the one that gets away.

It won't be. Trust me.

If Clear Notes was overvalued,

it was hardly the first in the Den in that category.

-Others have been given short shrift by the Dragons.

-It's just a toy.

-It's just a toy.

-It's just that you're valuing at a million pounds.

I was going to make you an offer,

but I'm afraid your valuation's killed it.

This doesn't give me a good enough return to invest £500,000

and, for that reason, I'm out.

ALPACA SNORTS

Our next entrepreneurs also had an ambitious valuation.

-How cute!

-Hello!

-My name is Tracy Birch.

-And I am Kari-Helene Rane.

We're here today to ask for £125,000 investment for 25% equity

-in our business.

-We are a field to fashion design house.

Our fibre is sourced locally and some from our own herd.

Keri-Helene creates our exclusive designs

and we sell knitting kits, patterns and yarn.

And if Tracy and Keri-Helene wanted to pull the wool over

the Dragons' eyes...

You're very good, aren't you?

-They had a trick up their sleeve.

-Amazingly soft.

Hi, Alfie.

The alpacas might have softened up Peter Jones, but he was still

bemused that such a business still exists in the 21st century.

I mean, this is going back almost 50 years in time.

It's like coming into Dragons' Den in 1958.

But you do realise it's 2013?

Yes.

In fact, it was the future the entrepreneurs were concerned with.

Our business has reached a plateau.

We now want to make hand-knitted, British alpaca wedding dresses.

Wedding dresses in a wool would be for winter,

so you're cutting down a massive point at which people get married,

which is normally in the summer months, so I don't kind of get it.

Kelly wasn't the only Dragon who thought there were issues

with the product.

Can I just ask what happens to it when it gets wet?

The water almost forms droplets. You just sort of shake it.

No, but if you're wearing it.

I mean, wool wet, A, smells, and, B, gets incredibly heavy.

Not a look for a bride on their wedding day!

Do you mind if I put some water on that or would you...?

-Please do, go for it.

-It doesn't ruin it?

-No.

It's my wedding day!

THEY LAUGH

It's soaking wet, but it does brush off.

I didn't doubt you for a minute.

THEY LAUGH

But were their sales figures as watertight as their dresses?

What were your costs?

Last year we made a loss of £1,751,

but this year we're ready to make a profit of £6,000.

-And you value the company at £600,000?

-Yes.

You're valuing your company at about 100 times this year's profits.

-Can I just justify why we did that?

-I'd love you to.

Unfortunately for Tracy and Keri-Helene,

their animal magic didn't pay off.

I love the alpacas, I love the colours, they're very me,

but it's just not something that I would invest in.

If you hadn't had the shield of those lovely brown-eyed alpacas,

you might have felt a little bit more tension coming from me,

cos to come in here and ask for £125,000, that was racy.

I'm going to tell you where I'm at and that's out.

Our next entrepreneurs think they've found the solution to

a well-known parenting problem -

babies putting things in their mouths and Mum and Dad

looking for something clean and safe for their little ones to chew on.

But will their invention soothe or

simply cause tantrums amongst the Dragons?

Hi, I'm Julie and this is Amy, and we're from Cheeky Chompers.

We're here today to look for £70,000 investment for 10% equity

in our company.

Cheeky Chompers... Cheeky Chompers launched our first product,

the Neckerchew, 11 weeks ago.

The Neckerchew is the world's first chewy dribble bib for teething tots.

No longer do we need to pick up, retrieve

and re-sanitise dropped teethers because this one's attached.

The initial idea came out of necessity when Julie and I

had our babies and we'd spend half our time picking up

and retrieving dropped and then dirty teethers.

So, it was the simplicity in our initial idea that was so appealing.

Why not create a teether that stays attached to the baby?

This is a great investment for the Dragons because it's

a brand-new product combining two already popular baby products

together into one special offer to fill a gap in the market.

In the first 11 weeks, we've sold 1,800 bibs, um,

we have signed up 14 independent retailers

and we've also signed up eight national UK retailers.

Um, we have one distributor already lined up

and we're in discussions with others in different countries.

So, it's been a fantastic start in our first 11 weeks.

Thank you for listening and we look forward to taking some questions.

A persuasive pitch from this Edinburgh-based pair.

They're looking for £70,000 for a 10% stake

of their dribble bib business.

But Piers Linney is curious as to why the entrepreneurs have

valued their start-up so highly.

So, you say it was made from necessity,

it was something that you couldn't have lived without,

so I've got two children and we've lived without it so far.

So, the question is, is it a business?

And also, is it a business worth, you know, £700,000 post-investment?

Our projections are that we turn over £147,000 in year one.

£250,000 in year two and £375,000 in year three.

If you make those figures, I'll eat 100 of your teethers and bibs.

-Fantastic!

-Without salt.

Would you pay for them?

You won't need me to pay for them, because you've made a fortune.

It's absolutely crazy...

to think that you could make that sort of money.

Sorry, but our projections are based on the sales that we've

already had and we've only been trading for 11 weeks.

You're valuing your business...

against a three-year forecast...

and you're valuing it in three years' time at two times revenue.

-You're delusional.

-We've had some fantastic big orders this week,

which we felt really reflected the...

It doesn't matter. Your business is, today...

potentially not even worth £100,000.

We've been trading for 11 weeks.

We've had to take what's happened to us within this 11 weeks

and the future orders that we've now got on the books...

Yeah, but to encourage somebody to invest in your business,

you can't say that you're going to get the value that I'm asking

you to invest in today, but you'll get that value back in three years

if we're mega successful.

I think our projections were quite conservative though, Peter,

given what's happening to us at the moment.

I mean, literally every day we're getting so much more...

But your projections are about as useful

as a ladder for a carpet fitter.

The response from parents and things has been phenomenal.

You should see... Every day we must get 20 photographs of babies chewing,

so, I think, for us, that feeling of...

Every day, Julie, we've got people coming in here saying,

-"The response from my customers has been fantastic."

-I know, I know.

"People want it, everybody wants it.

-"I can't sell enough, I can't make enough."

-But not many people in

11 weeks have kind of come to where we've come with more on the cards.

-Everybody that comes in here has.

-I'm sure they say that.

Everybody that comes here has.

Duncan Bannatyne and Peter Jones are far from impressed at

Julie and Amy's unswerving optimism.

But, to make matters worse,

Deborah Meaden wants to drill down further into the issue of sales.

-Can we talk about orders?

-Sure.

If you've actually got orders from these companies,

I mean, that might be the answer, so how about you take the veil away

and tell us who and the size of those orders, what those deals are.

Right, well, at the moment we've got, erm, eight national retailers.

So, the first one is Bentalls, Fenwicks, we have,

-um, John Lewis, Waitrose...

-Jojo Maman Bebe...

All who think that this premium product has a real market and...

-But Deborah's question was unveil the cost, the orders.

-The value.

So, the three orders that have just come in, because we are new,

we're being set up, so John Lewis said that we had to supply

through a wholesaler, which we don't...

Ladies, just give us the value of the orders, cos...

-With John Lewis, we don't know...

-So, there's not an order?

-They're setting us up as a supplier.

-OK, girls, that is very different.

By July, she wants us to be in all the stores by July.

That is very different. Have you got any orders?

No, we only have confirmation from her that she's going to place

-an order in that she will set us up...

-That was a little bit...

We've got orders from Jojo Maman Bebe,

we have 250 each of two lines...

What's the total value of your orders?

Well, it's difficult to tell cos we're, at the moment...

You've only got one order by the sound of it.

No, we've got Fenwicks and Bentalls, which were delivered.

Well, then, say.

The one order that we...

We have those orders in Fenwicks and Bentalls and Jojo, but the one order

we have is from a distributor and that for 3,600 pieces for Benelux,

so that's a significant order which comes to about £17,000.

-So, that's an order...

-This is important stuff, girls.

If, if, if we hadn't dragged it out of you, you'd have been going,

"Yeah, but my company's worth a fortune!" You know?

-So, that's an order. So, you've got an order...

-Yes.

..for £17,000 to a distributor. That's quite important.

A breakthrough for the Edinburgh duo as they finally start to

justify their company's valuation.

So, will that be enough to persuade any of the Dragons

to part with their cash?

You know, at the end of the day,

you've got some very good orders there.

Um, my advice to you is this could plateau,

you want to get out new designs constantly,

so that you're refreshing it and so that John Lewis, you know,

continually want to take orders and get them to put it

online for you, because you will double your sales with John Lewis.

Build your brand, spend a bit of money on PR, but you'll do it

on your own, so, I wish you luck, um, but I'm afraid I'm out.

Julie, Amy, I'm, um... I like it.

I'd buy one, I'd probably buy three, cos I think you need three and

you'd probably buy them for friends as presents if they had children.

Um...I just don't think it's an investment...

at all. So, I'm out.

Despite warm words of encouragement, Kelly Hoppen and Piers Linney

walk away from a deal.

But has Julie and Amy's healthy order book dealt with

the remaining Dragons' concerns?

I think you've done incredibly well. I love the name Cheeky Chompers.

I think you've done a really good job with the branding

and you've done extremely well to get it into the retailers

and I can see the retailers stocking this product...

and there's no question in my mind that people will buy this product.

My only reason for not wanting to give you an offer is purely

predicated on, I wouldn't offer you £70,000 for a third of the business.

So, that's the only reason why I am going to say I'm out.

-Right.

-But not because I don't think that you've created something that

-I believe people will buy.

-OK.

-And I say good luck to you.

I like it and I think you've done well,

I really do think you've done well.

I don't actually think at the beginning you really

presented the opportunity very well, which, for an investor, yes,

we can see it's a lovely product, but how are we going to invest?

But I actually completely agree with Peter.

It's overvalued.

-OK.

-So, you haven't really given me a place to make an offer to you.

-So I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thank you, Deborah.

Four Dragons out.

Only Duncan Bannatyne is yet to declare and he was

sceptical of Julie and Amy's projections of future turnover.

So...

-How do you think it's gone so far?

-THEY LAUGH

It's been a learning curve.

It has, the whole thing's been a learning curve.

We're disappointed, I guess, so far. Um...

What do you think the reaction has been?

-It's been really constructive, actually, really constructive.

-Yeah.

-It has.

-It's like night and day, isn't it?

I was giving you a bit of a tough time with the numbers.

But everybody likes the product, everybody likes you,

but we just can't get the money.

I've been calculating it, you know,

I'd need about 45% of the company, I think, if I was

investing £70,000 and I don't think that would be right for you.

But I can't invest at these levels,

and so, I'm sorry, but I've got to say I'm out.

-OK, thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thanks a lot anyway. Cheers.

A disappointed Julie and Amy go home without investment,

having failed to persuade the Dragons

they could get the numbers to work.

-What a shame.

-Hmm.

-Tonight in the Den...

-How do you think it's gone so far?

-..there have been some stretched valuations...

-You're delusional.

-..but no investments.

-So, I'm afraid I'm out.

-Still to come...

I don't know how much background you've got in terms of websites...

Well, if you don't know, then you should be embarrassed.

And as one of the toughest negotiators steps into the Den...

I can't give away 40% of my business.

I came in here saying I'd give away a maximum of 25%.

..the Dragons squabble for an entrepreneur's attention.

Mate, a lot of it's going to be like open doors...

He needs the most valuable thing that we have got,

which is those doors and the route to market.

So will we finally see a deal sealed?

Price comparison sites are part of the furniture of the internet

these days and certainly dominate the ad breaks.

And our next pair of entrepreneurs want to extend the concept

to the world of cosmetic treatment.

-Hi, Dragons. My name's Ganesh and I'm a doctor.

-Hi, Dragons.

-My name's Tim and I'm an optician.

-Together we run TreatmentSaver.com.

We're here today asking for £100,000 investment

for a 20% stake in our business.

Treatment Saver is a website where people can compare clinics,

book their appointments online and save money,

and, best of all, it's free.

We're currently the only site in the UK to offer this unique service,

with 200 people a month booking their laser eye surgery

and cosmetic consultations through us.

So, we initially launched online appointment booking for

laser eye surgery last year

and we're already in partnership with the three biggest chains

in the field and we honestly believe our medical backgrounds gave us

a huge advantage in establishing these relationships with

the clinics because we understand things from both a commercial

but also a clinical point of view.

Dragons, we need your help to realise our dream of becoming

-the Expedia for clinics.

-So, that's our pitch, guys.

Thanks for listening and, obviously, as usual,

we do welcome any questions.

An assertive pitch from these two medical entrepreneurs.

They're asking for £100,000 for a 20% stake in their

one-stop treatment shop.

Internet ideas get mixed reviews in the Den

and Deborah Meaden is keen to get to the bottom of their business model.

You say you're booking 200 of these a...?

-Month.

-Month.

-OK, a month at the moment.

OK, so how many treatment centres

have you got loaded up onto this already?

We've got...

close to probably 500 branches.

-500 treatment centres.

-And what's your revenue model?

How do you actually make money out of it?

When somebody books an appointment on our site, we get paid.

How much money are you making?

Uh, last year we made, just up to March, the end of the year,

we made 65,000 in sales. Um, with a £25,000 net profit.

-So, you'd no expenses?

-We've got very little expenses.

One of the reasons is that the traffic is free, we don't pay for it,

-cos it's organic.

-Signing people up relies on how much traffic

-you can drive to your site, doesn't it?

-Yeah.

Cos if you can't get traffic, they don't get customers,

so let's talk through those numbers.

How many eyeballs have seen that site?

We currently get 25,000 visitors per month

and that's just all organic, free traffic at the moment.

-PETER JONES:

-I'd say 25,000 is tiny.

25,000 a month. I mean, I launch a website, we get that in a day.

Yeah...

A reality check from Peter Jones on the numbers needed to make

a website really pack a punch.

Now, Piers Linney wants to discover how

they plan to attract those all-important customers.

So, this is a very simple business and, basically,

-you're a price comparison website...

-Yeah.

-..simplistically.

And we all know how much cash they spend on advertising,

so, this is about eyeballs.

The question for you is...

how do you get eyeballs there?

And the way you get eyeballs there is through marketing.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, yeah, are you going to be able to do that with, you know, £100,000?

I don't think it's just money, I think it's, you know,

maybe your skills, I don't know how much background you've got

in terms of websites, but I'm sure there's members of your team...

-PETER JONES:

-If you don't know, then you should be embarrassed...

..cos if I come in and pitch to somebody,

I want to make sure who I'm pitching to.

Yeah, sorry, sorry.

-PIERS LINNEY:

-The one thing I notice about your website is,

you seem to have forgotten the brand.

See, you've got a name, but you don't see a brand.

That's a very generic, consumer-facing website.

If you look at the design of some of our competitors' sites,

we're ten times better designed than some of those sites.

That's a terrible answer.

-Sorry.

-That is a terrible answer!

I think the point is...

So, that you are better than other sites that are not very good,

does not sidestep the reason for you to own a site. Do you know?

That is the moment, because there's no branding on that at all.

Let me tell you your problem.

You are going to have to spend a fortune and, actually,

sitting here and ONLY asking for £100,000 is not going to do it

unless you tell me that you've got

half a million pounds sitting in your back pocket.

-No.

-Not with us, no.

But, I think, I mean... We're doing 25,000 visitors a month,

we think because we're very good at what we do

and I think if we work, you know, in a combined PR and social media

strategy, we are pretty confident that we can get much better traffic.

And that is going to cost you a fortune.

Trust me, 100,000 is not going to do it, so I won't be investing.

I'm out.

Fearing the website won't work without a hefty investment,

Deborah Meaden bows out of a deal.

But it is not over yet. Four Dragons remain.

-KELLY:

-If you read the papers, certainly last week...

-Yeah.

..there's all the stuff about Botox and fillers

saying that the government is going to clamp down

because everybody's saying that they can do it now

and they're going to have tighter controls over it.

It's such a tricky area

because people are being sued all the time

because there are people that are doing all these surgeries

that are not really qualified to do it.

How do you know that the people that you put on to your site,

that you're recommending to people...?

-We're not recommending anybody.

-Well, you sort of are.

-We're not.

We basically list the clinics and we list the prices,

we allow comparison, and then the reviews,

people can decide from the reviews which clinic they want to go to.

Yes, but it's still your brand at the top.

When you buy car insurance or some other...even a flight in many ways,

they're very standardised products.

As long as the comparisons are the same, you get the same cover,

it doesn't really matter in many ways.

Whereas, you know, going to a surgery is quite different.

There's a little bit more to it.

The thing is, even though it is

treatments like laser eye surgery, there's still six out of ten

-people, price is still their number one reason...

-Rubbish! Rubbish!

-Rubbish, Tim, rubbish! Complete and utter rubbish.

-That's from a...

Absolute hogwash. I think you're all completely missing the point.

It doesn't matter how many people have eye surgery,

what matters is how many of them,

-for your business, go onto Google to find the eye surgeon.

-Yeah.

-I had eye surgery. I didn't go on Google.

-Yeah.

I did what the majority of people do.

I got a recommendation from someone who'd had it done.

What I'm more concerned about is,

when I go and get my eyes done, is that I walk out being

able to see and having my eyes done properly, not the price.

The Dragons' exasperation is becoming obvious.

And that is making it increasingly difficult for the duo to

salvage their pitch.

Let's assume that you can attract a particular,

very specific kind of traffic, so you might make

-200,000 pounds or even more at the bottom.

-Yeah.

If you can make that happen, great.

The issue you're going to have is that one day you'll wake up and one

of the big price comparison websites will think, "You know what?

"Non-surgical cosmetic appointments?

"We'll get into that game." And then the show's over.

So...

good luck with it, um, but it's not something I'd invest in, so I'm out.

OK, thank you.

-I think what Piers says is rubbish because...

-Oh, really?

..I don't think you can make a living out of it.

-This is just a non-starter.

-OK.

-And I'm out.

-Thank you.

Guys, for me it doesn't work because I agree 100%.

Because it's medical, I don't think you use it

the same way as you do to book a flight or a car.

I think there are too many things you read about in the paper

about companies setting up these medical, um, areas

that are doing Botox and plastic surgery

that are not qualified and, um, I wouldn't

want to invest in something like this, so I'm afraid I'm out.

There appears to be agreement in the Den

as to the flaws in the business model.

And now Peter Jones is ready to have his say.

Your biggest issue is, if you, for example,

allow a bad review to go up on a site, that is counterintuitive

because if I owned that surgery,

and I was then not getting any referrals because of your one review

that you've allowed to be posted on your website, that means one thing -

an immediate cessation of your income.

We've actually found that some of the clinics that we've done that

-with, carry on getting bookings because...

-Oh, come on!

Let's just quickly deal with this, because I've sat here politely

listening, but the reality is,

that if that was to occur you can't keep something up there

and try and still take your £50 by pushing your traffic down there,

that doesn't work. You can't do that.

You know, you're professional guys, you couldn't be part of that.

I say good luck to you, because you're taking some income,

but I think it's short-term, this model,

but I can't invest in short-term opportunities, so I'm out.

-Thanks anyway, guys.

-Thanks for your time.

After a tough encounter with the Dragons, Tim and Ganesh

leave the Den without the £100,000 they came for.

That didn't go too well, did it?!

They just didn't like it, man.

Do you know what? It's the medical thing.

It's... They didn't get it at all.

-They didn't. What can you do?

-Back to the drawing board, fella.

Don't worry about it, it's...

At least we had the balls to come on and do it, so...

The Dragons see all manner of ideas coming out of the lift.

And their business experience usually means

they can spot profit anywhere...

I'm going to make you an offer.

Oh, OK!

..which can even surprise the entrepreneur.

I can't believe this. This, um...

But some ideas can be so niche, they fail to hit home,

whether it's a tattoo healing oil...

Heal Ink is 100% natural tattoo aftercare to soothe

and assist in the skin's natural healing process.

..or a new computer game for a tablet.

It immerses the user in a world of antiques and archaeology,

building up priceless collections and taking part in auctions.

These businesses were on-trend,

but they also had other things in common...

..like expanding markets...

The tattoo industry has grown exponentially

within the last few years.

1.5 million Britons are getting tattooed each year.

..big profits...

What would be the potential return?

OK, so, my three-year forecast, I've got 1,000,800 with a publisher,

and four million without.

four million what?

Pounds.

..and investable entrepreneurs.

-Your pitch, I think, is fantastic.

-Thank you!

You have been in front of the mirror rehearsing this, haven't you?

People, crowds of people.

And how long did it take you to learn that pitch?

Months.

I think you're great, by the way, you present really well.

Thank you very much.

But even with all this in place,

the Dragons struggle to connect with computer games...

Anna, I'm going to tell you where I am

because I know very little about the gaming market.

Anything with a plug on it, I struggle with.

To me, and I don't know an awful lot about it, it just seems that

there's this endless pit where you could just throw

so much money into it.

-..and tattoos...

-I haven't got any tattoos - yet.

-I might have a Dragon one. Been thinking about it.

-Yeah? All down your back?

The more you talked, the more I thought

I really don't know anything about this industry at all.

..which led to the inevitable.

I don't know, not just enough about it

but I don't know the marketplace, I don't have a tattoo

and that makes it hard to get over the line with an investment

so I can't invest and I'm out.

If I was going to have to put a punt on somebody, it would be you,

but I don't have to put a punt on somebody, I don't

-have to invest, I don't know enough about it, so I'm afraid I'm out.

-OK.

Thanks.

-Anna's rejection was accepted with good grace.

-She's fantastic.

But for Nathan,

such a near miss after months of preparation was just too much.

I think my dad and my whole family have been extremely proud of what

I've achieved to get this far, I have to tell you.

I can't do it any more.

Well, still no investments and only one entrepreneur left -

James Roupell from South London with his first business venture.

James says toddlers love his cuddly travel companion for children,

but in the Den it's the Dragons he's to impress.

Hi. My name is James Roupell and I'm looking for £50,000

for a 15% stake in my company, BoBo Buddies.

We all know how much stuff children have

and how stressful it can be getting them from A to B.

BoBo Buddies are four-in-one travel toys that make travelling

with little ones fun and easy.

Each animal is an incredibly soft toy that can be worn as a backpack,

used as a travel pillow

and they've all got soft fleece blankets inside,

offering comfort to children on the go and convenience to their parents.

Children's travel toys are a rapidly expanding market with crazes emerging

around the world as more parents seek to put an end to travelling tantrums.

But so often I've found these toys were cheap-looking

and badly made and I thought I could do better.

The idea behind BoBo Buddies was to create a totally new concept that

was softer, cuter and more functional than anything else out there.

In five months of trading, I've sold over 3,500 units.

This has been done selling direct to consumers at fairs

and through my website, as well as to trade,

and I now have over 80 retailers stocking the product in the UK.

I now need to take BoBo Buddies to the next level

and this is where I need your investment and expertise.

I really believe that this could be huge and I hope you can see

why BoBo Buddies could be a very exciting investment opportunity.

Thank you and any questions?

It's a polished pitch from James Roupell.

He's in the Den, looking for £50,000 for 15% of his soft-toy business.

-So each of the characters has their name and a story.

-So what am I?

-So you're Mungo the Monkey.

-I'm Mungo.

-You're Mungo.

-What's the cuddly toy called?

-JAMES LAUGHS

Peter Jones has become attached to the monkey,

but will he feel the same way towards the organ grinder?

-This is your first business venture.

-This my first business venture, yeah. Absolutely.

-It's very comfortable.

-They are...

-I like it.

-They're lovely and soft.

-And what did you do before, James?

I left university two and half years ago.

I worked for an eco-friendly start-up.

We launched eco-friendly nursery products.

I've always known I wanted to set up my own business, so I left them.

It wasn't my own business and I had this idea

and I've put everything I've got into this.

-And how much money have you put in?

-£35,000.

Have you got any money left? I've got £25,000 in the bank at the moment.

-You've got no debt?

-No debt.

-What is the cost to make one?

-Landed cost is £5.45.

-And what will you retail at?

-They retail for £25.

-25.

-Yeah.

To sell that at £25 is very, very expensive.

It's no more than anything else out there.

The American version that's being sold in the UK is being sold for £35.

Protection. Is there any protection at all on this?

-I can't patent these.

-No, you can't.

-But we've trademarked the name BoBo Buddies.

-Any design rights?

Design rights? No.

So there's no protection, actually, on the product?

Not on the product, no. No.

After an encouraging start in the Den, the news that James

can't protect his product is of obvious concern to the Dragons.

And to make matters worse, Piers Linney now has an issue with

the valuation James has placed on the business.

-James, your valuation is round about £270,000.

-Yeah.

27 times your current net profit.

And even, you know, two times next year's revenues.

That's based on the sales so far, the reaction I've had so far,

and the belief that in four years' time,

turning over £500,000, and a million in five years.

I really don't think it's unrealistic.

The targets that you've given are very small.

I think to make this a successful business,

it's going to need quite a lot of work.

You're going to have to spend a huge amount of money in promotion

and marketing, but you're going to have quite immense

pressure on the business as a result.

And that's before you sort of put BoBo into the marketplace. But...

..I have a very good feeling about it.

And I do think if you get the BoBo positioning right...

I think it could...it could be big.

So I'm going to make you an offer, James.

And I will offer you the whole £50,000.

But in return, I would like 40% of the business.

Right.

An offer almost out of the blue for this unassuming entrepreneur.

So do any of the other Dragons share Peter Jones' faith in James?

When you first came in, I thought, seen it -

-doesn't do anything that something else doesn't do.

-Yeah, yeah.

But actually it's your ethos and your vision

of what can be done with this that is AS impressive as this.

It's also a space that Peter

and I have successfully invested in previously.

So I have some experience of getting this to market

so I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to offer you all the money

but I want 40% of the business.

-Right.

-I'd be very happy to share with Peter, if Peter is interested.

-Half the money for 20%.

-Absolutely.

I would be very happy to split it with Deborah

because I think she's lovely.

OK!

-And he's a charmer.

-Yeah.

OK. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Um...I think it's worth more.

I think there's more money in it, especially in you and your ability.

Your work ethic.

So I'm going to offer you all the money but I just want 35%.

-Not 40.

-Right. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Drama in the Den as Duncan Bannatyne undercuts Peter Jones

and Deborah Meaden's offer.

And there are still two Dragons left in.

Um, I quite like YOU so I'm quite interested in investing in you.

I think you'll do something interesting,

-be it with this or the next product, I'm not sure.

-Mm-hm.

-But I think you will succeed one way or the other.

-Thank you.

So I'm going to make an offer as well. You're doing quite well today.

-Yeah. Thank you.

-It's not really something I want to put the whole £50,000 into.

But I'm quite interested in whether Kelly would match my offer

because I think it would be great having Kelly's design

-capability involved and her contacts too.

-Right.

So I'm going to offer you £25,000 for 15%.

I'll match your offer. I'll match your offer, Piers.

It's a full house for the South-London-based entrepreneur.

So does James have a preferred combination of investors in mind?

What do you want, James?

You've got two Dragons here that you probably won't know.

You've got three Dragons that you do.

Um, who do you want to work with?

Er, I obviously had an idea before I came in.

And with the track record that you have and the investments

that you've made before, Deborah

and yourself are the two that interest me the most

but the problem I have, is 40%, which is

roughly where these various offers is...

My one is 30, which is only half, which if you ask me

is a big difference to 40%.

No, it is.

It is, so... And um, I mean, I can't give away 40% of my business.

Um, I came in here saying I'd give away maximum of 25%.

Then, and 40% is nowhere... Isn't near that.

James, this is a hard... It's a hard thing for you.

And because you've got to obviously make the right decision.

I'm sitting here with 11 offices around the world dealing

in 10 or 12 different varying products.

I'm in the children's market,

partnership with Deborah.

I kind of think that you've got to take those things

and sometimes that might cost a bit more because you

get on the stepping stones faster, you make a lot more money.

That return investment's got to be there, but if I looked at life,

I would like to have a much larger equity slice and a business

or a smaller equity slice and a business that has almost surety of success.

I would 100% go for the surety of success.

I'm different. I think you're a bit of a self-starter.

You don't need somebody to help you.

I mean, a lot of it's going to be...

He needs the most valuable thing

that we have got, which is those doors and the route to market

and that is the most... that's the most...

That's the most valuable thing that I can give anybody...

is to say, "There you go, get yourself in front of those people."

I agree, but while you're looking for those doors,

you also don't want to be tripping over

all the obvious business mistakes lots of young entrepreneurs make,

-which can cost you an absolute fortune.

-No, of course.

At the end of the day, it's about equity.

-I mean, I've had blazing rows over 1% of my business.

-Yeah, yeah.

And we're talking about a difference here of potentially 10%

of your business. That's a big number. This is not stuff...

-This is gold dust. You don't just give it away.

-No.

Well, what I'd like to explore a little bit more is what opportunities

could you two new Dragons create that otherwise I wouldn't come across.

You're probably looking at me, you think, "Piers, he's a tech entrepreneur."

I'm not, actually. I'm an entrepreneur. So you look at my background,

I've been in pharmaceutical research, the music business,

radio, records, corporate finance, technology, you name it.

I've been in lots of different things. It's business, isn't it?

It's about, you know, creating companies, creating brands,

and making money.

What I am really is someone who will make you succeed

and support you and open doors.

Um, so thank you for your answer. Um, Kelly.

For me, what I was interested in is trying to help you grow this.

You know, as I'm sitting here, I'm seeing all these other

products that you could design and I think what I could

bring to the table, because I have come from a design background,

is the design, helping you realise this dream and this character.

I'm such a make-believer, I can sort of see these animals

and see where it could go.

-So yours would be slightly more creative.

-Exactly.

A persuasive Kelly Hoppen and Piers Linney fight for their corner.

But three experienced

and very competitive tycoons are still in the game.

-James, I'll make life a bit easier for you, James.

-Thank you. Please.

Or a bit more difficult, depending how you look at it.

Piers has offered you £25,000 for 15%.

I'll match his offer.

But that's £50,000 for 30%.

I would go one stage further if Deborah was happy.

I'm focused purely on the investment.

I would be willing to say that the minute I get my investment back,

if that's... Sharing it with Deborah, if I received 25,000...

..I would drop immediately to 15%, which would mean that you would

own 70% of the company, I would own 15%,

Deborah owns 15%...

..and you've got, hopefully, a successful business.

I'd go with that, Peter. I'd be very happy for that.

Um, well, I really appreciate your... your offers. I can't...

can't believe that it's got to the stage

and, er...

It's obviously... I knew it was going to be...

It's more than I want...

than I'd thought I'd want to give away.

The thing that I'm really thinking about at the moment is

the possibility of Deborah and Peter

splitting 35

then going down to 25.

The Dragons didn't become successful in business without negotiating hard.

But with five offers on the table,

a poker-faced James is standing his ground.

I need to be clear.

My offer is 40.

Going down to 30.

Um, but it's got to be worth my while.

I don't know how Peter feels about that, but that's my end of it

so my offer stands.

40% ratcheting down to 30% or splitting that with Peter.

Look.

I'm really keen to work with you

and Peter, but I really need for you to move somehow on the 40.

I think with the five offers, with me,

with what I've shown, I think I'm worth more.

-But the other offers, with frank, it's irrelevant.

-But you haven't...

You came in at 40% and you haven't really budged from that.

We have. We've given you 10% back.

The more you focus on these two, the less interesting it becomes.

If 25% is genuinely your top price, then you can absolutely,

and I'm really sorry to say this, but I could not contemplate doing

a 25% if I was going to split it with anybody.

But if you won't split it

would 25% for the £50,000...?

No, no, no.

The problem that I've got is I've got two offers

for 30 immediately.

I just don't think I can give away 40%, even though that

would be 30 after.

It's far beyond what I thought you'd be asking for. Um...

-Sorry to be a pain. Do you mind if I have a moment?

-Just talk to yourself.

Thank you.

It's an extraordinary moment in the Den.

Rarely has there been such a tough negotiation.

So who will blink first?

Right. Right.

-I'd like to accept yours and Peter's offer. Please.

-Well.

I'm very pleased about that. And I think you've made a good decision.

Thank you very much.

He's done it. After an edge-of-the-seat encounter,

James leaves the Den with the two Dragons he wanted

and a deal he's happy with.

So difficult being offered the same amount of money for less

equity from the others, but with Deborah and Peter's experience,

even though they were asking for more equity, I think in the end it's...

I'm happy with the result.

So a well fought after investment there and two near misses as well.

A dramatic day, which brings the Den to a close for another series,

a series which has shown the Dragons have lost

none of their appetite to back the best business ideas.

Now if you think you have what it takes to win an investment

when the Den the next opens, do get in touch via our website.

And hope to see you here next time.

-When do you run out of money?

-In about four months' time.

-So you're really in big trouble then?

-Yes.

Let's go.

Nothing that you've said has made me feel confident that

if I gave you a million pounds, that you would make money.

Good riddance.

Do you know who I am?

Yeah. Peter someone.

-That's amazing!

-That's genius.

-Thank you.

I'm going to make you an offer.

-£100,000.

-But for 15%.

-Flipping hell!

-Wow.

-I'd like to accept both of your offers, please.

-Excellent.

-Thank you.

-Party on!

-Yeah.

Woo-hoo!

Sh!