Episode 4 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons.

Wealthy, well-connected...

..innovative...

and influential.

Each week, they make or break the dreams

of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

I think we've got something special.

Whatever you've invented here isn't a business.

Your attitude is so unengaging.

It's not only the product, but it's about the person.

It's like entering the world of business Narnia.

I'm losing the will to live.

How would we work together?

We would kill each other.

Resistance from the industry means your product doesn't work.

Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...

..telecoms giant Peter Jones...

..and hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne

have between them struck deals

worth more than £7 million in the Den.

But ready to fight for the next shrewd investment

is the creator of her own world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen,

and cloud computing pioneer Piers Linney.

The multi-millionaires will give each entrepreneur

just three minutes to pitch their idea

and then interrogate them on every aspect of their business.

To face them takes nerve and vision.

So who will leave with the Dragons' money?

Welcome to Dragons' Den.

The financial climate remains uncertain, but here in the Den,

five of Britain's sharpest business brains

are still ready and willing to plough their personal cash

into the right business idea.

And our first entrepreneurial duo to make a pitch today

think they've devised an ingenious solution

to an irksome old problem.

Will they tempt the Dragons to invest?

Hello, everybody. My name's Bob.

My partner, Steve.

We've got something wonderful that we want you to love,

because it's fantastic!

We're introducing the Easy-Lift Drain to you.

Many drains will not come out of the ground.

They jam,

they get corroded in.

And they're an awful problem.

This drain - you put two screws in...

..you screw down...and it lifts on the bottom frame.

So consequently, the surrounding ground...

..stays the same. Doesn't move.

And you can see it's the minimum of effort.

Not difficult.

You lower one end down on a pair of castors.

And you can swing it round

when you do the repair.

And look at the saving -

utility companies sending two men out to lift a drain.

When you need a repair at home,

you can literally do this yourself.

We have one of the top builders' merchants in the country selling it for us.

We think we could go worldwide.

So...let the drain take the strain.

Thank you very much.

An exuberant pitch from Bob Cave and Steve Parsons,

who are seeking a £100,000 investment

in return for a 25% stake in their company.

But Bob's unbridled enthusiasm for his product

has left Peter Jones at a loss for words.

Um...

-Bob, is there something wrong with you?

-Why?

Because you got SO excited

about this drain-cover lift.

Well, I could be boring, couldn't I, but I think we've got something special!

Bob, it's just a drain...

spinny thing! Isn't it?

Well, if it was that, why have we patented it?

Isn't it a fantastic idea?

Listen, people patent a lot of things.

-It doesn't mean they're great things.

-How come we're selling them?

-How come...?

-Now you're talking!

Now you're talking, Bobster!

How come the biggest building merchants

in England...?

So, Bobster... Bob. Bob.

Just take a deep breath.

-You've done your pitch. You've done quite well.

-Thank you.

You've sold some - that's the bit that got me.

So tell me how it's selling at the moment.

Well, let's say to you it's in its infancy.

-This is really new. We've not been going years.

-Got a funny feeling you might say that.

But I just want to know - how many have you sold?

-60.

-60?

-Yeah.

OK.

And how many have you made?

60.

OK. And who have you sold them to?

Travis Perkins.

-And how many have they sold?

-They've sold about 20.

-And how long have they had them?

-Four months.

-Four months, they've sold 20?

-Yes.

We're looking at something that could go worldwide.

Bob's putting up a passionate defence.

But there's something about the claims he's making for his product

that's troubling Kelly Hoppen.

I build houses all over the world,

and whenever you're going to put a drain in,

you can put tiles on the top, you can put Tarmac on the top, anything,

because when you lift it out, you don't then have to destroy everything around the perimeter,

so you haven't created something new there.

No, we have, because when you lift it out...

But I see it being done all the time.

Yes, but if you lift it out when it's new,

yes, you can lift it,

because it's got no... It's not fretted in to the frame.

You do one after two years - the frame round it will come up

and you'll see all the bricks move.

I've got a drain at home

that I literally put this steel rod

into the drain, turn sideways, unlocks, and lift it up.

What weight is that?

Well...it's not THAT heavy.

What weight? This weighs 64 kilos.

You're not supposed to lift over 25 kilos.

So this is fantastic.

You're not going to have a bad back.

Look what it does to help people.

We know the health and safety lifting guidelines

and this is the only drain that's got a one-man lifting system

that can remove that quite easily with no effort at all.

I can do that in about two minutes 35 seconds.

-And that's putting it...

-Steve, you look shattered.

It's been a long day! Yeah, but I can do that in two minutes 35 seconds.

And, um...

for recessed manhole covers

can take a lot longer.

I've opened drains that size before on my own, with two keys. Lifted it up.

-Not a problem.

-That's correct, but...

Did that weigh over 25 kilos?

-Yeah.

-Then you're not doing right. You'll hurt your back.

-How long does a drain cover last - 120 years?

-It could do, yeah.

So, 120 years...every drain cover may have been replaced by yours

if everyone started today?

If that happened, we'd be rich men!

-You'd be dead as well.

-No, we wouldn't.

Piers Linney may have failed to dent Bob's optimism,

but has Kelly Hoppen spotted something about his product

that could dent a potential investment?

-I've come to you. I've got existing drains.

-Yes.

And I want to buy off you

the parts to change the existing drains I've got.

-Is that possible?

-It could be for existing

when the other drain manufacturers take the mechanism on.

I have to buy a whole new system?

This is development.

We've gone a long way in a short time.

We're adding this into the market.

How many new drains are fitted every week?

-In this country? KELLY:

-Why are you looking at me?

Because you might know.

Do I actually know how many drains are fitted? I don't.

Thousands.

-DEBORAH:

-No, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry! I'm not letting you get away with that!

How many drains are fitted in the UK each year?

How many? We've done the research.

There is approximately...um...

About 40,000 external domestic drains.

All in all, the commercial side as well,

we're talking about probably hundreds of thousands

of recessed covers...

-OK.

-..that go in per year.

So we are... Our business model is for both markets.

How much of the market do you think in the first year

you're going to be able to gain?

Well, as we're going, we'd hope 5% to 10%.

Sorry...in your first year, you're going to get 5% to 10% of the sales?

Going full flow,

with marketing and assistance,

we think we can sell in the region of 3,000 to 4,000 units per annum.

-DUNCAN:

-Bob, you don't need marketing. If you're in with the biggest building merchant

and he's already bought 20

and he finds how great they are,

he'll come back and order another 100.

You don't need marketing. You just need him to buy them.

How much is a normal recessed drain cover of that size?

We think it's round about £35 to £42.

So the premium on yours is about £16?

Yes.

-Because of the lift?

-Yes, because of that system.

I've seen in my profession for the last nine years

contractors having to go back to site

to destroy the whole thing to put another one in,

so these contractors will prefer to buy this,

because it saves them money.

The trouble is,

most people don't place the reasons you're talking about upfront.

If they're going to lose a contract because their price is wrong,

trust me, they're going to put the original drains in.

This will not be bought by anybody

unless they are prepared to pay a premium.

So, I'm sorry. I won't be investing. I'm out.

A dubious Deborah Meaden has declined the opportunity to invest.

Will Duncan Bannatyne be any more willing

to make Bob and Steve an offer?

How much money have you invested in this, Steve?

-My redundancy money has gone into it.

-How much?

Round about £15,000.

-£15,000?

-Yeah.

-How much have you put in, Bob?

-Around £5,000,

plus my company has carried a lot of costs to develop it.

I just think the money you both put into this is just money down the drain.

This is not a viable project. So, for that reason,

-I'm out.

-OK.

My issue with this is that you need to change the manhole cover industry,

the drain industry, which is great - maybe you will.

But it might take 100 years to replace all the drains out there,

where they can apply your system.

And I haven't got 100 years to wait.

I'm looking to invest, not generate a legacy for those that come after me.

But whatever you've invented here isn't a business,

-so...I'm out.

-OK. Thank you.

Three Dragons have bowed out.

Now it's time for Kelly Hoppen to have her say.

I build multi-million-pound homes all over the world

and the end result is the most important.

So to have something that I know is not going to destroy

something I've designed and my builders have built at the end

is music to my ears.

But I don't know commercially how you can make this work in terms of existing drains,

so I think, go away, try and figure out some way that you can adapt the idea

and rework how you're going to actually get this to market and sell it.

-But I'm not going to invest. I'm afraid I'm out. Good luck.

-Thank you.

I think it is a great, neat invention

and if you can find a way to retro-fit this,

I think that you will sell a lot.

I wouldn't have invested in it, because frankly,

I'd rather paint my own toenails.

I find it... I'm just not interested in it.

I say good luck to you, I'm not going to invest and I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you, guys.

The drain might be taking the strain...

..but sadly for Bob and Steve,

they won't be taking any of the Dragons' hard-earned cash.

-Oh, well, we did our best, didn't we?

-But the good thing is they liked it.

If you look at both of us, we had a go.

A lot of people just stand around doing nothing.

And we've done our bit, and we're on our way.

Yeah.

Next into the Den were a team of entrepreneurs

who were sure they'd solved another complex issue -

that of ill-fitting bras.

Sisters Sue McDonald and Linda Birtwhistle,

alongside plastic surgeon Atul Khanna,

were seeking £40,000 in return for a 10% stake

in their bra-fitting business

that they hoped would revolutionise the way women wear lingerie.

It is a well-established fact

that 80% of women wear the wrong size bra,

with devastating physiological and psychological problems.

To paraphrase Victor Hugo,

nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come.

This idea has come.

Impressive claims from the inventive trio.

But Kelly Hoppen was baffled by how the measuring device actually worked.

I would love to see you measure yourself with this,

because I, to be honest, wouldn't know where to start...or not.

This, you pull...

in very tight.

Top of the shoulder...

Let that fall down to the side.

And then go down to the side of the breast, halfway down,

and put that there.

Lean forward

and go around, without stretching,

to the same point, under the side.

That gives you a measurement.

Deborah Meaden wondered whether the complexity of the home measuring kit

was its major weakness.

Nearly every time I measure myself for something, it's wrong.

What I'm going to be is really disappointed

when I've actually measured myself and that bra turns up

and it's no better, because I'VE got the measurement wrong.

-But that's what's happening today anyway.

-That's my point!

Duncan Bannatyne felt that the lack of interest in the product

from any of the major players in the lingerie sector was telling.

I own a chain of health clubs. Suppose someone came,

"There's a new piece of gym equipment.

"Get this one - it works three limbs.

"And then you can change it and use the other leg."

I would say, "Well, no, that's no good."

Resistance from the industry means your product doesn't work.

Unfortunately for Sue, Linda and Atul,

the Dragons all agreed their Optifit bra

was little more than a storm in a D-cup.

Most women are never going to buy this tape

and re-measure themselves every time they buy a bra.

Your alternative you're offering is not practical.

It cannot take over the mass market.

So I'm afraid I won't be investing, and I'm out.

Our next entrepreneurs have a simple philosophy -

making it yourself is more fun than buying it.

Their West Country based craft business

hopes to capitalise on this growing movement.

But will it make any headway in the Den?

-Hello, I'm Kate.

-And I'm Nigel.

And this is Sarah, and she's going to be making a lampshade

whilst we're doing our pitch, just to show you the sort of thing we get up to at the Makery.

The Makery is a modern craft brand.

We have two companies - the Makery Emporium

and the Makery Workshop.

At the workshop, we teach people how to make things,

so anything from upholstery to lampshade-making,

knitting to knicker-making.

A year after launch...

A year after launch... SHE GIGGLES Sorry.

Many of our workshops have become over-subscribed

and it was clear that lots of our customers had trouble finding the products that they wanted.

So we found new premises and we opened up the Makery Emporium,

which is the business we're here to seek investment for.

At the Emporium, we sell all sorts of modern craft goods from our shop in Bath

and also online from our website.

We're even looking forward to stocking our own book later this year.

The first step that we'd like to take to prepare our retail business

is to develop a range of make-it-yourself kits,

called Make-Away, with our kits packaged in takeaway-style packaging,

but we need some help with the manufacture, distribution,

PR and also we'd like to...

Sorry. ..develop the website slightly to tie in with the kits.

-(The time...)

-The time is right, Dragons.

We've built a strong brand. We believe in it commercially.

Now is the perfect time to get behind the excitement surrounding this making revolution.

And with your help, Dragons, we firmly believe

that the Makery is well placed to lead the way.

A homespun pitch from make-do-and-menders Kate and Nigel,

who are seeking a £50,000 investment

in return for a 10% share in the retail side of their business.

-Kate, hi. I'm Kelly.

-Hello.

I think you're adorable.

-It's not put on - this is really you.

-Yeah, it really is!

I can guarantee that, yes.

I actually think this is very cute.

But nowhere, as far as I can see, does it tell you how to make it.

I haven't put the instructions in there yet.

What we want to do is we want to write out...

two sets of instructions - one for those people who are naturally creative

and another where people need a little bit more hand-holding.

So there are ways we want to make the kits stand apart from what's available at the moment.

-Nigel, Kate, hi. I'm Piers.

-Hello.

I really like it. It's just well done, really.

It's pretty cool.

The question for me is, do people really pay you £15 for...

that...and that?

Not for that in its current state, but once we have finished

getting our hands on it, then, yes, absolutely.

So how many different kits do you see yourself having?

Initially, a range of five

to hit the different age groups, really.

When we were making the kits and testing them in the shop, we couldn't make them quick enough.

So we know that there is a market that's hungry for new ideas

and for us to inspire them to make new things.

Can I ask you - those little toys over there, did you make those?

No, we didn't make them.

We do loads of children's workshops and we said we were coming...

Am I the ugly monkey?

-PIERS:

-You're a very pretty monkey.

ALL CHUCKLE

-DEBORAH:

-Can I see yours?

-PIERS:

-I've got a cloud on mine.

-Of course you have.

-DUNCAN:

-This is me?

Actually, that's very close.

-PIERS:

-One of your socks.

Sweet!

I think it looks lovely. I think that looks lovely.

So I get all of that.

Um...

What do you think is your brand?

The Makery is the brand.

-So that device is your brand device?

-Exactly right.

That's weak.

You haven't got a brand there,

because... Well, it's muddled.

The Makery's lack of a clear brand identity

has troubled Deborah Meaden.

Could the release of Kate and Nigel's forthcoming book

bring a much-needed dose of clarity?

Is it Conran Octopus that's publishing your book? How did that happen?

We got approached by a book agent,

which asked us if we'd like to write a book,

so obviously I said yes - it was like a dream project for me to do.

The book has actually got to be your brand now,

because that's what's out there.

So the packaging you have here,

you've confused it slightly.

I have to say, I mean, I'm...

annoyed with myself now that the book doesn't reflect the, um...

our company...

really, as well as it should do, on the front cover.

-It says "Makery" on the front.

-Yes, I know, but the branding doesn't look the same.

-DEBORAH:

-That doesn't look like it's from the same family as that.

-Not from the same stable.

It just doesn't.

-DUNCAN:

-I don't think it matters. It looks great.

It does look great.

-I think it's important that it does strengthen...

-Don't get me wrong. It looks great.

It's just you're trying to build a brand, and I know about brands,

-and, you know, it doesn't all fit.

-No.

I've called for a meeting with the publishers before we take any more steps creatively,

for the next book, because I know how important that is. Absolutely.

Kate's acknowledgment of the branding issue

has reassured her potential investors.

But Peter Jones is preoccupied less by art and design

and more by simple mathematics.

What does each business make in terms of profit?

I'm interested in last year's numbers.

Um, for the workshop this year, it is...

Ooh! ..9... Oh, sorry.

I'm just...

The way I've memorised it in my head, I just need to...

So, um...

Er...

You could just go through it as you've memorised it.

Um...

Last year, it made...

Oh, this year it made...

Um...

-90,000.

-Made...?

-No, no, no!

Sorry.

-Let me...

-Come on, let's... Nigel, somebody help.

-Let's just be simple.

-I know, but...

You're running a business together. What was the turnover and profit in each of the businesses last year?

So, um... the Makery Workshop...

um...turned over, er...

£170,000.

Um...with a...

net profit of, um...

£60,000.

OK.

And the shop side of the business, um...

turned over £130,000,

with a net profit of £20,000.

A detailed knowledge of their own business

is a must for any entrepreneur in the Den.

And Kate's shaky grasp of her numbers

has irked the Dragons.

At the moment, you're making this opportunity about as exciting

as investing in an inflatable anchor.

I don't know how to take you two!

It's like entering the world of business Narnia.

That's not so bad!

I...I don't...

I'm...I'm losing the will to live.

Me too.

You've valued this business at £500,000,

for the shop only.

So that's 25 times profit. How do you justify that?

In our market, our brand is very well recognised and we've got lots of followers,

so the potential for the brand is actually,

we think, really quite big.

If you do crack it and become a...you know, a favoured brand,

you could have something quite interesting. It's about marketing, really.

So what's your marketing budget for the next 12 months?

Um...it is about...

Not an exact number, just...

10, 20, 30?

No, it's not even 20. It's more like 10 to 15.

You've got the beginnings here of quite a strong brand.

But developing that and owning that market is going to take...

I don't feel that we have to do it all at once.

I think this would be an initial investment that would take us to the next level

and then we could go from there and expand.

I completely disagree with that. I think you do have to do it all at once.

-This is an absolute...

-The time is now.

-You know that.

Your instinct's good on that.

This is a land grab, isn't it?

It's such a current

movement that's going on at the moment, all this making things

and sewing and learning...

Maybe it's just a fad, but let's get realistic here.

The thought of investing in a business

where people are sitting and doing some sewing and things like that,

it's just... For me, it's just crackers.

-I think you're both great, but I'm out.

-Thank you.

A blow for Kate and Nigel,

who've now lost their first Dragon.

Will Peter Jones or Deborah Meaden

be any more willing to buy into the couple's making revolution?

I think there's a lot to do, you know.

I'm not so sure that the business

warrants it.

So I'm going to wish you well on your way back to your wonderful...

-amazing world that you both live in.

-Thank you.

-I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

-Thank you, Peter.

-Thanks.

I think you've definitely got something. But I actually think there would be a problem

with the way we wanted to work together,

because I almost feel like I'd want to get a team in there and say,

"Get that out there and do it really quickly!"

And I don't think that's what you want.

I LOVE working on the Makery,

and I want it to be huge.

And I do want it to grow quickly. We both do, don't we?

That's not what you've been delivering through this pitch.

I...I think there'd be a...

there'd be a conflict there,

which is a shame. But anyway, I won't be investing, so I'm out.

Nigel, Kate...I like you.

I love the product. I'd love to visit Kate and Nigel's world,

but I'm not going to move in!

You've done a great job.

I think there's a niche there you can build a business in.

I'm just not sure how big that could be,

so good luck, but I'm out.

Only one Dragon remains.

Kelly Hoppen has appeared receptive to Kate and Nigel's plans.

But will she be willing to make them an offer?

I'm going from one thought to another.

I do like the idea of a sort of takeaway, Make-Away - I think that's good.

There are people out there that have done this and made a lot of money,

like VV Rouleaux.

You know, everyone aspires to that company.

If I was going to invest in this, I'd want to really invest in it and do something big,

and I'd want such a big percentage of your business,

and I don't want to take advantage of you,

so I'm afraid I'm out,

but I seriously wish you the best of luck with it.

Thank you. Thanks very much.

Thanks.

So, despite enthusiasm for their takeaway-style kits,

Kate and Nigel are leaving the Den empty-handed.

A timely business idea perhaps,

but not one that's excited the Dragons sufficiently

to prompt an investment.

So far tonight, each visitor to the Den

has left empty-handed.

This will not be bought by anybody

unless they are prepared to pay a premium.

So, I'm sorry. I won't be investing. I'm out.

Will any of these entrepreneurs be able to persuade the Dragons

that their business is the next big thing?

I'm not convinced you need anybody's help.

I think we do!

Now, mankind has been cutting wood

for thousands of years.

We've got advanced tools like saws to help us do it.

So you might think no-one could come up with a new way

of making the task easier.

Well, think again. Cumbrian-based duo

Richard Bowness and Steve Tonkin believe they've done exactly that.

Here we go!

Hello, Dragons. I'm Richard Bowness.

I'm the inventor and shareholder of the Truncator multi-cut sawhorse.

We've come here to ask for £125,000

for 30% of our company.

Hello, Dragons. I'm Steve Tonkin.

I'm project manager here at Truncator

and I'd like to introduce you to our sawhorse.

The Truncator sawhorse is a revolutionary new chainsaw sawhorse

that makes the process of cutting logs

easier, faster and much, much safer.

Our sawhorse is a unique sawhorse.

It's the only sawhorse where you multiple-cut logs.

The logs are held by the cup system

and you simply stack from the cups,

or in fact, even better, tip the cup system

into a container to create your logpile.

We're here today to hope that with your investment and help,

we could take our brand and our invention

from Cumbria to the UK and the rest of Europe.

I have some ear defenders for you now to put on,

while Richard gives a demonstration of the device.

A somewhat nervous pitch from Richard Bowness and Steve Tonkin from Cumbria.

They're looking for investment for their souped-up version

of a sawhorse - a device used to secure wood while it's being cut.

Before the questioning can commence,

it's time to see the product in action.

Tip the logs...

One barrow full of logs. 30 seconds.

Hi. I'm Deborah.

Um, so...

What are people currently using to chop logs?

All sawhorses on the market at the moment

drop the logs onto the ground, which creates trip hazards.

More importantly, most people are cutting one and two pieces of wood at a time.

This, you can fill that, and you have multiple cutting.

So you are getting at least 100% to 200%

increase in productivity.

Bold claims from the entrepreneurs.

But can they back them up under questioning from Peter Jones?

How many people could go out in their back garden,

cut down some trees,

put them on to the Truncator,

then cut their logs, then take them back into the house?

What's the reality of that?

Is that one in 50,000, one in a million?

Um...

At least one...

-I would have thought it would be a lot more than that.

-One in what?

What I'm saying is...

Because the market is so big,

we can't actually ascertain where it is.

I don't think the market IS big.

I would accept your view, but you're completely wrong.

But that doesn't help.

I accept that it is a thing that isn't within your gambit.

For you haven't got the knowledge

to actually ascertain...

But you've both got the knowledge

and you've come in here with a table I could get from anywhere

with a Truncator put on the front as a brand,

and you are then telling me that I'm wrong? Well, give me some facts.

We're looking for sales of 1,300 of these units in the first year.

-And that should produce 65,000.

-Gross profit?

Gross profit. We're then going to 3,500,

and that goes to the 130.

What's your net profit going to be in those two years?

(Do you remember?)

Um...

Sorry, the figures have gone out of my head.

How can we put this...?

-This is quite good.

-Um...

What did you say? What did you say, Richard?

This is quite good!

Is that your humour?

It is, actually, because we're making a complete mess of the figures.

By arguing back and getting the numbers wrong,

Richard has ruffled the feathers of the Dragons.

Is easing the Den's uncomfortable atmosphere on Kelly Hoppen's agenda?

Can I just say that, you know,

everyone that comes in here with an invention,

I take my hat off to you. I love the way it chops up the logs neatly.

But in terms of a business,

it's a flawed business plan.

You're talking about all the people that go and buy a chainsaw.

It's not going to be people that are chopping down logs

for a business.

You go to petrol stations, all these hardware stores, where they're all bagged up.

I think that you're thinking that all of those thousands of people

that are buying the chainsaws have got a business.

Most people that I know that live in the country

actually enjoy cutting down the logs. It's like a pastime.

But I don't think you're going to sell enough.

OK.

It's flawed. Could I say...

I am quite impressed with the pluck of you all, telling somebody who does cut logs big-time

and has done for 50-odd years...

Richard. Richard, so you're saying

that you're unimpressed by us because we don't cut logs,

so we don't know what we're talking about when it comes to cutting logs?

-Yes.

-Right, well, what I'm saying is this -

I'm unimpressed with you telling us

how to run a profitable, successful business.

I'm out.

Challenging the Dragons appears a kamikaze tactic,

as Duncan Bannatyne walks away from the deal.

Piers Linney is keen to steer the pitch back to business

and the all-important issue of sales.

I don't think anybody here thinks that there isn't a market for this.

There is, clearly.

The question is, how big is that market?

-That's where the disagreement...

-I'd be surprised if we weren't selling

£1 million of that product within three years.

Yeah, but you sit here and you chuck out words like,

"I would be surprised if we don't sell a million of these."

And honestly, you...YOU are surprised at me!

Well, I'm really surprised at you

not coming up with actual fact.

"I reckon we'll sell 3,000 to 4,000..."

Then tell me you're going to sell 3,000 to 4,000.

We will sell far more than 3,000 to 4,000.

This start-up company, up to now,

has consisted of me for two years

and Steve for roughly 60 days.

How is that helping me make a decision on whether or not I invest in you?

Because myself...

I've sold £9,000 of that product

to hill farmers in the hardest market you could ever believe,

to people that have never bought a sawhorse,

won't buy anything,

and I've sold it to the hardest...

Richard, you're missing the point. This is all fantastic.

Every entrepreneur that comes in here

has a story behind them.

Every entrepreneur sitting here in front of you

has worked their socks off to get where they are today.

That doesn't give me the reason to invest.

I think you'd be impossible to work with.

You always have to look at the person at the end of the day

and think, "How would we work together?"

And we wouldn't.

We would kill each other.

So I'm out.

Richard's defensiveness of his product

is proving disastrous, as an irritated Deborah Meaden bows out.

And it looks like Kelly Hoppen

has also made up her mind.

You've kind of walked in here,

unenergetic, unexcited about a product

that I actually like, although it's so out of my...

sphere of what I do for a living.

But I can see that it's a good product.

But your attitude is so unengaging.

So, you know, obviously,

-you know what I'm going to say. I'm afraid I'm out.

-That's fine.

-Thank you.

Steve, Richard, it was rubbish.

Just the whole... Not the product. I like the product.

I don't get it. I don't live in the country, like some of the other Dragons.

If I got a chainsaw out in my garden, somebody would probably call the police.

But the biggest issue...

..I think is yourself.

I just can't imagine working with you and trying to have a straight conversation with you,

because I think you think you know better.

And perhaps you do when it comes to logging,

but it's not just about logging, it's about building a business.

-So I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

Four Dragons are out.

Will Peter Jones be an unlikely saviour

to what's proving to be a chainsaw massacre in the Den?

You really should have got onto your numbers.

You really should have asked yourselves the questions

that you believe would be asked.

One day's worth of work before you came in here...

..and you would have been able to answer some pretty easy questions.

Appalling pitch.

And that's the reason why I'm not investing. I'm out.

-Thank you, Peter.

-Thank you.

It takes a brave person to argue with these Dragons

and in the end, it didn't pay off for Richard and Steve.

They may have fought valiantly to defend their product,

but it only resulted in expulsion from the Den.

They leave with nothing.

Oh...bloody hell!

-That was rough, wasn't it?

-It was a mauling and a half, that was.

That is a great demonstration of how to NOT get an investment.

Once they were getting really aggressive, wouldn't accept what I said,

I was just wanting to get out of there,

because I would not do business with the three older Dragons

in any shape or form.

I'd help them out in a life or death situation,

but I wouldn't put a slate on their roof for a tenner.

The emotional investment

for any entrepreneur coming into the Den

is huge.

But the Dragons base their financial decisions

on a mix of fact and instinct.

And there's no more formidable a Dragon

than Peter Jones.

You look very nervous.

I am nervous, yeah.

What's nervous about the Den?

Exactly, yeah!

You've really messed up, haven't you?

It seems so.

You're almost deluded in your approach to business.

It's your problem. You're pitching to me.

His vast business portfolio,

built up both inside and outside the Den,

means that no-one cuts to the heart of a potential deal quite like him.

I've gone into the drinks business,

and it is incredibly competitive.

I brought out a board game called Big Business two years ago.

If I tell you that we didn't make any money...

You're going to need about £1 million, minimum.

It's seven figures or more investment.

Levi, we spend £2 million a year today on marketing.

I would suggest that you have a reality check

and make this 100 times more impressive.

But while his assessments can be damning,

you can rely on his trademark one-liners

to soften the blow.

Your projections are about as useful as a ladder for a carpet-fitter.

That looks about as practical as an ashtray on a motorbike.

It's about as exciting as an ejector seat in a helicopter.

Oh, no!

I'm not going to make you an offer. I'm out.

The million people in the UK who are said to practise yoga

may find it helps their mental and physical health.

But next into the Den is a Scottish couple

who hope yoga might boost their financial health as well,

if they can just secure an investment from the Dragons.

Namaste.

My name is Cheryl MacDonald.

I am the founder yoga teacher and director of YogaBellies

and this is my husband, Michael MacDonald, also a director.

YogaBellies offer authentic yoga classes

for women and children, which allow them

to enjoy all the benefits of yoga

in a welcoming, safe and fun environment.

Our organisation began when my son was only six weeks old

and I was teaching pregnancy yoga in my spare bedroom.

From these humble beginnings,

we have grown to over 60 franchise teachers across the world

and continue to grow.

We also offer women the opportunity

to own a successful yet ethical yoga franchise,

work around their family,

improve their own mental and physical wellbeing

and help other women. What could be more rewarding than this?

YogaBellies generates income from initial franchise training fees,

annual fees and packs that we sell to teachers

to give to every member that comes to a YogaBellies class.

We're on target this year for a turnover of 116,000,

with a net profit of £50,000.

In years two and three, turnover will be 160,000 and 290,000,

with net profits of 76,000 and 200,000 respectively.

I'd now like to invite one of our certified YogaBellies teachers,

Sophie, who is 22 weeks pregnant,

into the Den to be involved in the demonstration.

We're going to take the front foot to 90 degrees and the back foot to 45.

We're then going to swing the arms forward

and take them behind the back into reverse prayer position or namaskar.

We're then going to take an inhale and a back bend...

..and on the exhale, gently coming forward,

only as far as is comfortable - we don't want to squish our baby.

Thank you, Sophie.

It's a harmonious pitch from Cheryl and Mike,

who are seeking £50,000

in return for a 20% stake in their business.

But before the Dragons put the couple through their paces,

Peter Jones seizes the opportunity to quiz one of their franchisees.

How much money have you made over the last 12 months

working with YogaBellies?

I have two, I'm happy to say, very successful classes that I'm teaching.

And on my busiest class, which would have around 18 to 20 mums booked in,

on a regular basis,

they would be pulling in just over £200.

-So about £10,000 a year?

-Yes.

That's only from two classes a week. That's absolutely phenomenal.

How much did you pay to go on the course?

There has been price increases ever since the training actually started.

My initial investment, I think, encompassing the 200 hours' yoga teacher training

was probably round about the £2,000, £2,100 mark.

Sophie, I think we've got no more questions. Thank you very much.

Not a problem. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Hi, Cheryl and Michael. I'm Kelly.

Yoga's everywhere.

There are lots of schools teaching people how to teach yoga.

So what you're essentially wanting us to invest in

-is a franchise model.

-Yes.

I'm trying to get my head round it.

-So once somebody pays a fee...

-Yes.

..which you said now is £3,000?

The initial fee is now £4,500.

But the annual fee is around £50 per month.

It's quite a lot of money, though.

-Yoga is something you can do at home.

-Absolutely, yes.

So, I'm just trying to see...

how this turns into a much bigger business.

We have 300 territories in the UK.

And each of our teachers has a set geographical territory

of 200,000.

And they can purchase further territories as they wish to expand.

So, in the UK, what's your geographic spread?

We have lots in Scotland, lots in Northern Ireland,

and down south, in London.

The only person we have in the middle of the country is in Hull.

-PIERS:

-You said that you've got teachers all over the world.

Do you mean 60 in the UK and one in Dubai or something?

What's your global footprint?

We have two in Sweden, one in Korea, one in Dubai, one in Cyprus,

-one about to start in San Francisco.

-OK.

So it's quite international, then?

Yes. And someone is about to sign up this week from Latvia.

I have a fairly big franchise and I know some of the issues with it,

but I also know how fast it can grow.

Yes.

Um...why haven't I heard of you?

I don't know!

Um, we have... I mean, I've only been training other teachers for two years.

So it has all happened within two years.

Um...we rank the first page on Google for pregnancy yoga,

antenatal yoga

and postnatal yoga,

so if you happened to be pregnant

and you were looking for one of those classes, you'd find us on the first page.

So far, it's been a composed performance from Cheryl and Mike.

Peter Jones is curious to discover more about their background.

Have you ever done something like this before?

No, this is my first business,

but I did international business and modern languages at uni.

I actually have number dyslexia, so I really struggle with the accounts and the figures.

So I focus really on the training and the marketing side of things

and Mike has kindly taken care of the figures for me.

How much money have you put into the business?

-Nothing.

-Nothing.

We didn't have to put anything in initially, because I did everything.

How much has the business got in today?

40,000, probably, in cash.

-PIERS:

-So you've got a business studies degree, you're rolling out a franchise programme,

you know all the ins and outs, you've got 40K in the bank...

Why are you here?

As much as the money would be absolutely fabulous,

the main reason we're here is to gain from your fantastic business experience.

To have that kind of experience within the organisation,

we could grow more efficiently, faster.

You know, looking at cutting costs and just making everything better.

I'm not convinced you need anybody's help.

I think we do!

Cheryl and Mike's modesty is charming the Dragons.

But could their business

be in danger of becoming a victim of its own success,

especially in the light of their recent decision

to increase their franchise fees?

I have an opinion about the future profitability.

I think you're going to struggle, charging £4,500.

And I think you're going to now start to see a massive slowdown,

and I think you'll then end up reversing that model back to how you started so successfully,

which means that I don't believe that you'll achieve the 76K

net profit.

Do you agree with what Peter said?

Actually, no, because we've never actually been so busy since we put the prices up.

We've had more enquiries.

When I started my school, teaching school,

I thought it was very expensive, what I was charging people for a week

to fly in from all over the world.

But there was a point at which I had to put the price up.

But if people really wanted it

and they were serious, they would fly over and do the school and pay the money.

By putting up the price, we're hoping we'll attract a more serious teacher

who will want to teach more, and then our income will increase.

There are clearly mixed views in the Den about the price hike.

But will Cheryl and Mike's staunch defence of it

be enough to convince a sceptical Peter Jones?

I think you're going to struggle selling it at the top end.

As an investor, for 50K,

it's not something that I think

I can make a decent return out of.

So I'm going to say I'm out,

-but wish you the best of luck.

-Thank you very much, Peter.

-PIERS:

-Mike, Cheryl, I think you've got a very nice little business.

And the problem is, I think it's going to stay that way.

Right, OK.

Little in terms of the grand scheme of things, in terms of scale.

On that basis alone,

congratulations, best of luck,

-but I'm out.

-Thanks very much.

-DEBORAH:

-I completely disagree with that.

I think you've got a very scalable business here.

I think you are really, really onto something,

but it would be wrong of me

to get involved with you and let you down

because I wasn't going to give you the time

that I think you've actually clearly indicated you want.

-Yes.

-So that is my absolutely only reason.

-So I won't be investing. I'm out.

-Thank you very much.

I think you've got a great model there

and I think you could create garments

and on the back of the brand,

create nice yoga mats and all the rest of it.

It's not something that I feel that I could invest in

and give you the time to do what you need.

So I wish you luck,

but I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

Despite a promising initial pitch,

Cheryl and Mike's chances of securing an investment

appear to be slipping away.

Will Duncan Bannatyne be prepared to offer the couple

the financial lifeline they asked for?

I don't think you need a Dragon on board.

But you've told me you do.

Yeah!

This is a no-brainer for me.

So I'm going to offer you all the money -

£50,000...

..for 35%.

-Can I talk to Mike?

-Certainly.

THEY WHISPER

We love the offer.

Would you go for 20% for 50...?

Sometimes in life,

there's an opportunity, and you have to grab the opportunity

when it's there.

My offer stays -

£50,000...

for 35%.

Would you...?

Would you consider, if once you get your money back, dropping down to 20%?

Yeah, I'd go for that.

-Yeah?

-Yeah.

-That would be fantastic.

-OK.

Well done.

APPLAUSE

-Thank you very much!

-Thank you. Thanks, Mike.

-Thank you very much.

-No problem.

Thank you very much. Thanks for your time.

So, success for Cheryl and Mike,

who, after some tense negotiations,

leave the Den with a healthy £50,000 investment

and the Dragon expertise that they were seeking.

Oh, my God!

I'm just completely shocked. I'm completely overwhelmed.

We're just so happy

that the Dragons were so positive

and that Duncan's invested.

-That's brilliant!

-I know!

I'm still taking it in, really.

We're just really, really happy and excited

about the opportunities to come.

So we see that, as always,

some sound financial projections

and a carefully thought-out business model go a long way

in getting the attention of a Dragon.

But there's nothing like a bit of good karma thrown in

to seal the deal.

The conversation about all of tonight's pitches

continues on Twitter, using the hashtag...

Next week in the Den...

This is not a product that we actually need.

It'd be a waste of my money to invest.

I think it's completely unviable,

unworkable,

uninvestable...

The core of this business is you.

And I am struggling with it.

Love the product. I'm afraid your valuation's killed it.

Do you know what, when I ask you what your turnover's going to be,

it's a lot better if you tell me what your turnover's going to be.

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