Episode 8 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons -

wealthy, well-connected, innovative and influential.

Each week, they make or break the dreams

of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

I don't think this is in the slightest bit commercial.

-I think it's ridiculous.

-You're saying it's a natural product.

You don't get that feeling from it. It looks...

It looks like drain cleaner.

What?!

People are paying £1,500 for that?!

I'm just trying to get to the understanding of why you think

putting some handles on a blanket is worth half a million pounds.

I'm going to make you an offer.

Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden,

telecoms giant Peter Jones

and hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne

have, between them, struck deals

worth more than £7 million in the Den.

But ready to fight for the next shrewd investment

is the creator of her own

world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen,

and cloud computing pioneer, Piers Linney.

The multimillionaires will give each entrepreneur just three minutes

to pitch their idea

and then interrogate them on every aspect of their business.

To face them takes nerve and vision,

so who will leave with the Dragons' money?

Welcome back to Dragons' Den,

where we'll meet more ambitious entrepreneurs

vying for investment from five self-made multimillionaires

who have the power to make or break their business dreams.

Now, in the UK, we are in the middle of a baby boom

and our first entrepreneurs are hoping to take advantage of this

with a product for babies they think will transform the lives of parents.

LIFT DINGS

BOTH: Shh!

- Hello, my name's David Solomons. - And I'm Mike Edwards.

And we are looking for £100,000 investment for a 20% equity share

in our company, Snugglebundl.

Now, all parents know how difficult it is when you've eventually got your

baby to sleep in your arms, to then lay them down without waking them up.

This can be especially difficult if either parent

suffers from a bad back or if Mum's recovering after the birth.

Stooping to lay your baby down without waking them up

can be really awkward and, more often than not, they wake up

and you end up having to do it all over again.

Well, with the Snugglebundl, we've got the solution.

MIKE: Yes, the Snugglebundl is the world's first baby-lifting blanket.

It's made from a lovely, soft cotton and has padding to support

and protect the head and neck, two soft, strong handles,

and it's all fully safety tested.

Now, instead of bending over awkwardly to

lay your baby down, simply take the two handles and

lower your baby down gently with a straight back.

If your baby stirs, simply rock them back to sleep,

and this is especially good for soothing colic symptoms.

DAVID: Now when your baby's

asleep and you need to move them, it's so easy.

You just take the handles and you lift your baby softly and gently up

to your arms without having to bend over and without waking them up.

And Snugglebundl fits safely into pushchairs and prams,

into supermarket trolley seats.

But especially it's designed to go straight in and out of the car seat.

You lift your baby in on the Snugglebundl as they sleep

and the straps will do up safely and securely in any make of car seat.

MIKE: With over 2,000 babies born every day in the UK alone,

there is great potential for our company to grow rapidly.

We would love you to join us in our Snugglebundl family

and then the Snugglebundl into a global brand. Thank you.

DAVID: We welcome your questions.

A pitch with the cute factor

from Mike Edwards and Dave Solomons from West Sussex.

There are looking for £100,000 to carry their baby blanket

business to the next level. On offer in return is a 20% stake.

Kelly Hoppen looks impressed.

-Hi, David and Mike, I'm Kelly.

-BOTH: Hello, Kelly.

-I think it's brilliant.

-BOTH: Thank you.

I mean, my daughter's 29 but I do remember that moment every

time you to try and get your child to sleep

and then you lean down to put them down, they'd always wake up and

you'd be busy sort of shaking them around again to get them to sleep.

When is the baby in it? Do you leave them in it all the time just in case

-they fall asleep?

-It's a garment, effectively. The baby would...

It's a garment-cum-mat for the baby, so whenever you go out, you can

wrap... or they fall asleep, you can wrap them up

when you want to lift them. It's like a second skin for the baby.

That's my question, so...

-They're going to live in it until they're four.

-That's what I mean.

They need to live in it in case they fall asleep.

It's for the first six months so it's particularly for straight

after the birth when Mum's, you know, a little bit tender and sore.

Give birth, in the snuggle blanket, four years later you take them out.

Yeah, you use it from day one.

You put it in the hospital bag and use it straightaway.

And babies get used to the feel and smell of the blanket

-so it becomes their blanket.

-Tell me about the business.

So, is it being sold anywhere?

Yeah, we are doing incredibly well with it already.

We've already sold just over 4,000 units. About 4,200.

-It's really gathering momentum.

-What is the cost of them?

Retail at 39.99. So we have got a gross profit margin of...

- 76%. - ..76%.

And any stores that we would know of that you're selling into?

We've got a letter of interest from Boots at the moment,

who really loved the product and have asked us

to keep in touch with them as we grow the brand.

Sorry, why would they say, "Keep in touch," and not ask you to come in?

Because they... The thing is, when you're a small producer

like us, they often want to replace one or two at a time and they

work for a distributor and have lots of different products in one go.

They don't like to deal with individual manufacturers

and suppliers.

-Could we have a look?

-Yeah. Oh, yes, sure.

-We got some packages there.

-Give us a baby.

Interest from a major retailer -

the icing on the cake for an already product-smitten Kelly Hoppen.

But does Peter Jones share her enthusiasm?

Are we being serious? This is a carrier bag for a baby

and you're pitching this as a business that's worth

-half a million pounds?

-What's... What's...

You've put a handle on a blanket.

It's purely as a lifting aid.

You can do the same with a blanket. You just wrap your child in

a blanket if you want to and you put it there and just

lift the baby up. The fact that you've put a handle on...

That's not so safe. And to move them from one thing...

That's not safe anyway.

You start getting into some sort of routine and carry it, you know,

you'll forget you've got a baby in there

and be carrying it like a handbag. I don't know whether it's because -

and I'm not being sexist here -

whether it's the fact that it's weird having two blokes

come in holding babies and pitching this concept.

I don't know whether that's

-what's put me off to start with.

-No, you are being sexist.

Could we bring in our third...? Our third...

- Team member. - Our third team member.

-Is your team member a female?

-Yes.

I think it's a good time to bring Heidi in if we can.

-Let's get Heidi in.

-OK.

-Hello. I'm Heidi.

-Hi, Heidi.

-Hi.

-Heidi, I just want to see...

ask you a few questions,

because we've got these two very strange men that have walked in

trying to convince me that a blanket

with a handle on it is worth half a million pounds.

What is your involvement in this?

OK, well, my background is I'm a qualified nursery nurse

and I've worked for...

I've managed family centres, I've worked with babies

and young children and families for over 20 years.

-Could the child fall out of this carrier bag?

-No, it's impossible to.

But the reality is that people have lived quite happily for

many, many years by snuggling their child into a blanket.

I'm just trying to get to the understanding of why you think

putting some handles on a blanket is worth half a million pounds.

Yeah, I mean, I'm completely with you.

People can spend a lot of money on baby products that are,

you know, two-minute wonders, that are just very, very gadgety,

but because this blanket has got so many benefits,

and, of course, there's parenting and parenting styles

and things that have come into the whole way we parent children -

we now have car seats that weren't around, you know, years ago...

Heidi, you're not addressing Peter's question.

He didn't say, "How many different uses have you got

"and how brilliant is it?" The question was,

why is a business that is basically a, in Peter's description,

blanket with handles on it,

why, at this stage of the game, is it worth half a million pounds?

Mainly because of the response we've had.

The response from all the experts, the response from the public

and the potential going forward.

Heidi's arrival may have brought some credibility to the pitch

but it's not prevented a dressing down from Deborah Meaden.

How will the trio handle Duncan Bannatyne's questioning?

I think it was Mike that said there's 2,000 babies born in the UK

-every day.

-Mm-hm.

-OK, how many of those are your customer base?

Well, we do shows all the time...

No. How many of those 2,000 are your customer base?

HEIDI: We've sold over 4,000 units...

-How many of those 2,000 are your customer base?

-About 25%.

About 25%. So, while the rest of them not your customer base?

We don't know. DAVID: They haven't heard about it yet.

I don't think they are because I don't think...

There is a high percentage of those 2,000 who can't

afford £40 for a blanket.

As we make more, as we order

and make more, then hopefully we will be able to bring the price down.

MIKE: We are gaining more and more publicity.

- We were recently on BBC TWO. - HEIDI: Radio 2.

Radio 2. Simon Mayo's show.

So two million more people know about us very recently.

-And what happened following that?

-Well...

It just went crazy, basically.

I mean, the orders just absolutely rolled in and are still coming in.

That's fantastic. And how much does crazy mean?

Well, our direct sales, going from sort of 50 a month,

within two days, we were 265.

So, a significant boost in sales from publicity.

And now Peter Jones is ready to have his say.

Guys...

..I've sat politely to see whether I feel that I was a bit harsh earlier.

The more I sit here, the more I realise that I'm not...

I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment of this.

I'm not going to invest

because I don't think that I will get anything like the return

on the money that I need, I don't think your business is worth

half a million pounds and I do see it as a blanket with handles.

So, I'm sorry, guys, and Heidi, and not going to invest and I'm out.

Thanks, Peter.

-DUNCAN:

-Oh, that's so, so annoying.

So annoying. I have to agree with Peter Jones again.

You know, there's no doubt you'll sell these on websites

and independents and make a little bit of money

but it's not a business worth half a million pound.

So I have to agree with Peter - I have to say I'm out as well.

Disappointment for the entrepreneurs

as two Dragons take themselves out of the equation.

Will Piers Linney follow suit?

Mike, David, Heidi, I like it, I just can't quite see...

I'd always want it there the time I probably haven't put

the baby in it, in my view. I think you will sell some. I think it's...

You know, you've obviously thought about it,

it's a great design and I can see there's absolutely a use for it.

I'm just not convinced that if you invested £100,000, you know,

you'd get the money back that you'd need to, so

-good luck with it, but I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thank you.

Ooh.

I completely disagree with Peter and Duncan.

And I'm really very unlike me

because I'm usually very, very decisive.

But I've been sitting here, thinking,

"It feels like there's something about this," but I've actually

made my mind up now and it's not going to go the right way for you.

I have an instinct that this works and, actually, £100,000, you know,

for less money, I'd probably have thought, "You know what?

"We'll give it a go. £50,000, we'll give it a go."

But you're talking for a sensible amount of money, which I'm

sure you need and I have to say your valuation, right now, is crazy.

I don't know how you can disagree with me and Pete

-and then say it's the money...

-No. You said...

-It was the valuation...

-I'll tell you why, Duncan,

-because you said you thought the product was rubbish.

-No, I didn't.

No, I never. I said it's very good quality.

You completely agreed with Peter

that it was just a blanket with handles on.

Anyway, I'm not having a conversation with Duncan,

I'm having a conversation with the people in front of me.

I just think that, unfortunately, I don't know

-and you haven't got me there, so I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thank you.

No investment from Deborah Meaden,

leaving Kelly Hoppen the only Dragon still able to get into bed

with the entrepreneurs.

Snugglebundl has certainly brought out her maternal side.

Will it unleash the investor in her, too?

I have sat here really loving this product.

I really do think you've created something that's...

as much as Peter is slagging it off, I do think it's clever.

And I was going to make an offer...

..but I'm not, and I'm going to tell you why.

Because, when I asked you about Boots,

I'm dealing with Boots on something else at the moment.

I hadn't even shown them, you know, the product, just spoke to them.

They automatically want you to come in and see it.

You've also done all the trade shows.

DAVID: They met us at a trade show, sorry.

HEIDI: It's been a very, very recent thing.

They've actually seen it, so that's even more worrying for me.

They really should have got you back in to place an order.

And I don't want to slag you off cos I do think it's

a brilliant product. I'm afraid I'm out, but I do think it's very good.

-ALL: Thank you. DUNCAN:

-Good luck.

-Good luck.

-Thanks.

It's a blanket no for Snugglebundl, proving that having

a highly qualified member of your team

doesn't always guarantee investment.

It's a shame they didn't see the real potential in it because,

you know, we have got so many satisfied customers.

If they were to hear our customers, they would have certainly invested.

But having expertise in your field

usually gives a pitch real credibility.

My highest profile position

was executive designer on the Tomb Raider franchise.

I'm a master chef and chocolatier. My name is Hans Schweitzer.

I studied product design and robotics

and at the moment I am a PhD student at the University of Southampton.

Our next entrepreneurs certainly had impeccable credentials.

My name's Dr Samantha Decombel

and this is my partner, Dr Stuart Grice.

We're scientists.

Their product was a fusion of the worlds of art and science.

We've created a range of beautiful artwork with the most personal

touch of all - it gives you a glimpse inside of your DNA.

Piers Linney found it all bit baffling.

-So you want to be the premier scientific artwork company.

-Yes.

So, where does it go next?

You put someone's appendix in a nice coloured jar, or...?

Where is this supposed to go?

No. We do bespoke work. It's like a portrait.

It's little bits of people, you know, little bits of their family.

Designer Kelly Hoppen couldn't picture the product

in any of her interiors.

I'm sort of trying to get my head around why I'd want to see

that as a piece of art on my wall.

I'm not sure I'd want to look at that.

I don't believe that the science and the art go together and

I don't think this is in the slightest bit commercial.

I think it's ridiculous.

Duncan Bannatyne was surprised

when he decoded the cost of the scientific pictures.

What price are you selling at?

-So, this one will be 1,500...

-What?!

-..and 49.

People are paying £1,500 for that?!

Have you analysed the DNA genes of these people to see

if they have got the daft gene? Or the throw-money-away gene?

It's a bespoke... LAUGHTER

It's a bespoke piece of artwork, Duncan.

The Dragons were less interested in the DNA of the entrepreneurs'

artwork and more intrigued by the chemistry of their relationship.

Are you married?

- Been going out for 17 years. - It's a bit of a sore point.

If you were to do it now, I'd invest.

- Please. - Honestly?

You... You are in so much trouble now.

But any hope of a Dragon/doctor relationship was dashed

as Piers Linney summed up the feeling in the Den.

I think you do have a small market for certain people

who would go for this. Is it a business you can invest in?

I'm not convinced. This is not for me, so I'm out.

If strong credentials were a guarantee of investment,

our next entrepreneurs would be laughing all the way to the bank.

Team GB triathlete Lynwen Harrison is here with her business

partner Rachel Smith and their sports recovery drink.

They're not just here to take part, they're here to win an investment.

(We can do this. We know it inside out.)

LIFT DINGS

Hello, my name is Rachel Smith

and this is my business partner, Lynwen Harrison.

Our company is called nouriSH me now

and we've created a natural sports recovery drink.

We've come to the Dragons' Den today

to ask for £75,000 for 15% of our business.

LYNWEN: NouriSH me now is a natural, fresh sports recovery drink.

Essentially, this allows you to rehydrate,

repair and refuel after you've exercised.

And what that means in real terms is that you can train again

sooner or you can you ameliorate some of the negative effects of exercise

like muscle soreness. I came up with the idea around about three years ago

when I got a Team GB selection for triathlon in my age group.

I tried just about every single recovery product that was out there

and just didn't like any of them,

the taste, the nuisance of mixing powders up

and the synthetic nature, primarily, of what I seemed to be taking on.

My background is I'm a physiotherapist

and I have a biology degree from Sheffield University so I knew a fair

amount about the science about recovery

and I, essentially, made my own.

Since then, we've worked with Paralympians

and elite athletes who help us

promote our passionately held belief that natural products support

an athlete and generally the public, just as well as anything synthetic.

So, our philosophy, basically, is

no chemicals, just nature, you can't lose.

Thank you. Any questions?

-Would you like to try some?

-Yes, please.

-Yes, please. Yeah.

An invigorating pitch from smooth-talking entrepreneurs

Rachel Smith and Lynwen Harrison.

They want £75,000 for a 15% stake in their business.

-What taste is that?

-Raspberry, mint and lime.

Deborah Meaden is first off the starting block to question

the sporty entrepreneurs.

So, great back story, really interesting to hear,

and that whole thing about you making things for yourself.

-Were you in Team GB? You are in Team GB.

-I still am, yes.

Yes, I still am. I'm going out in June

to compete in the European Championships.

That's fantastic. So, back to the business.

At the moment, what is the company turning over?

Well, in the first year, which was only very small,

it was £1,800 and, to date, it's 9,000.

Where are most of those sales coming from?

LYNWEN: The indoor climbing market.

Climbers have absolutely loved this drink because it is low-fat,

-it's healthy, it's not full of chemicals.

-What's its uniqueness?

-That it is fresh and natural.

-That it's fresh and natural.

-Are there preservatives in this?

-RACHEL: Nothing, no.

Are the fruits used, are they organic?

-No. They are not organic.

-No.

-There are not organic?

-They're not organic but they're all natural.

-Natural. And any chemicals or anything within that?

-No.

Although there will be

if they are not organic cos there will be residual...

In some of the fruit juices that we use, there is citric acid

in them but we are very careful about who we source and what concentrate...

We also use concentrates as well

and we are very careful about who we've been able to source that from.

And the milk is fresh and the yoghurt is fresh.

RACHEL: They do have a two-week shelf life

but how we also work with a lot of the athletes who buy our drinks

-direct from us is that the drinks can be frozen.

-Could I just say...

Hi, I'm Kelly. I train every day.

The problem I have with this,

and I want to like it, is that I'm not crazy about dairy products.

Let me finish. You've also got...

You're not using organic fruits,

you've got a lot of sugar in here and I'm really anti-sugar.

If I was inventing something for the sports world

and for nutrition, sugar would not even be on the back.

How would you get your carbohydrate into a drink then,

if you're not going to use sugar?

You have natural sugar or you have agave.

That's where the natural sugars come from.

Our sugar in there is lactose, so it's milk sugar.

It seems as though you haven't been able to create the perfect storm

you would've liked in terms of ticking all the boxes.

There were things where it's not fully organic, you know,

it's got a short shelf-life. It's not quite...

The organic thing is really interesting because what we've

tried to do is create a drink

that is relative back to recovery all the time

but there isn't any evidence against organic and recovery.

You cannot say that organic isn't better than not.

We're not saying that organic isn't better for you,

we're just saying that when it's relating back to recovery.

What if the evidence said pouring a lot of chemicals in there made

-it more effective? Would you do that?

-The evidence isn't there.

-What if it did?

-No, because I wouldn't want to...

I wouldn't want that in my body.

Intense scrutiny of the product's claimed health benefits.

Will industry expert Duncan Bannatyne be the Dragon

to aid the entrepreneurs' recovery?

Where's your market, Rachel? Where are you going to sell this product?

Cos you're not selling it now.

We can sell it in gyms and we can sell it in smaller...

The climbing industry is growing.

I own the fifth biggest gym company in the UK.

So what happened when you approached us?

We haven't approached you yet, cos what we wanted to do

was concentrate on the Sheffield area.

So you're talking about gyms in the Sheffield area.

-You haven't approached a chain.

-No, we haven't.

Chains in Sheffield

but we haven't gone outside that cos we wanted to...

-Which gym chains did you approach in Sheffield?

-Virgin.

-Right.

And...

- Fitness First. - Fitness First.

So, did they tell you they had a head office buyer

-and you had to go through the head office?

-BOTH: Yes.

-Did you approach the central buyer?

-Virgin, we did, yes.

And he said that... Cos we gave the team some drinks to try and they

thought the drinks were fabulous

but they felt like it conflicted with Powerade

and they weren't allowed, in terms of their contract, to take anything on.

So, these are all the problems.

You can sell it on the climbing frame at the end of your street

and the gym at the end of the street. That's easy.

But making it a big business where you send it out to people

into gyms and premises you have never visited, and don't

have time to visit, is very, very different.

You've got to deal with a buyer at head office who can't go and check

the shelf life and say, "Oh, actually, we had to throw 10% out."

So, sorry I can't invest in this, cos I think you're both lovely.

But I'm going to have to say I'm sorry, but I'm out.

The entrepreneurs have lost a key Dragon

in health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.

Now Piers Linney has some concerns with the product's visual appeal.

I don't get the brand. I don't like the brand or the bottle.

It doesn't really make me want to drink it. It looks a bit...

I mean, you're saying it's a natural product.

You don't get that feeling from it. It looks...

Looks quite the opposite actually. Like a bottle of chemicals.

-I can explain the bottle to you.

-It looks like drain cleaner.

-OK.

-If I'm honest.

-We started off with a clear bottle.

Our vision was that. But because of the dairy and the fruit in there,

what happens is it separates, so it doesn't look very

attractive on the shelf and that's why we went down the opaque route.

But the fundamental issue is you've got a product that is very hard

to take to market, in a market that is highly competitive.

Although you want this to work,

it's not something I'd invest in so I'm afraid I'm out.

BOTH: Thank you.

I need to tell you where I am, because I think it's great that

you've created a product, fantastic from an athlete's perspective.

You're looking for something.

This, sadly, unless you compromise on your product

and the ingredients, it's doomed.

It's too short a life span, in terms of two weeks.

It's...

It's impossible that any supermarket chain will even consider it.

-So I'm out.

-That's fine. Thank you for your time.

This is not something that I would invest in.

Because of the content,

because I don't quite believe in what you're

saying in terms of recovery, but I might be a novice and I might

not know enough, but it's just my gut,

-which is what I'm going to follow.

-That's fine.

-The evidence is there, so, yeah.

-But I wish you luck.

Any two women that walk in here and have a great idea

and come up with it and try and sell it, I admire,

-but I'm not going to invest. For that reason I'm out.

-Thank you.

Four Dragons are out of the race.

Will Deborah Meaden be an unlikely saviour

for the rapidly declining pitch?

That leaves me.

The product looks great, the colours of it look great,

and - much more important - it tastes great.

But I think you are going to struggle getting the national

distribution that I think you've got the dream of.

-So, I'm sorry, I'm out.

-OK. Thank you so much for your time.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Thanks.

It's all over for the likeable entrepreneurs as their fitness

drink fails to get over the finish line in the race to invest.

They leave the Den with nothing.

So far tonight, our entrepreneurs

have all had impeccable qualifications...

I've worked with babies and young children

and families for over 20 years.

I got a Team GB selection for triathlon.

We're scientists.

..but they've all missed out on investment.

Will either of these bright business sparks manage to

secure some Dragon capital?

The real defining and crowning moment is you.

I don't how to process that.

You need to decide here and now, do you want to disclose it

and we can have a conversation, or do you want to withhold it

and walk back in that lift?

First to face the Dragons is a former investment banker who

has traded in a lucrative career in the City

in order to start up his own business.

but will his made-to-measure condoms

secure an investment from the Dragons?

Hello, Dragons. My name is Joe Nelson and I am the condom revolutionary.

In December, 2011, I launched my company, TheyFit.

TheyFit manufactures and sells directly to consumers

95 different sizes of male condom.

We make 14 different lengths,

starting at just 3 inches all the way up to 9.5 inches,

and 12 different nominal widths,

which fits circumferences from 3.5 inches out to 7.5 inches.

The Family Planning Association tell us

that currently half of all pregnancies are unplanned.

The World Health Organisation estimates that every single day

around the world, one million people

catch a sexually transmitted infection.

Now, the male condom goes a long way to addressing both issues

but only when it is used.

I am changing people's behaviour

and attitudes towards their sexual health for the better.

I have made a condom that men want to wear, rather than need convincing to.

It has been a pleasure pitching to you.

Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to your questions.

An intriguing pitch from Joe Nelson, who is

looking for £200,000 in return for a 10% stake in his company.

Piers Linney wants to find out how he can be sure that

his TheyFit condoms live up to their name.

Talk me through customising the sizing.

It is probably best, Piers, to give you one of these.

I was wondering what you are going to say then. So, this is...

-That is called a Fit Kit.

-Thank you.

-Would you like one?

If you turn it over, the instructions are on the back.

So, basically, it is a paper ruler, length, circumference,

and then you can go and buy the right size?

It is as easy as finding the right size of shoe.

For essentially 90 years, latex condoms have been sold

one size fits all, and arguably the biggest reason...

Joe, that's not right. You can buy condoms in different sizes now.

-It is not all one size fits all.

-It is a common reaction, Duncan,

but the perception owes more to clever marketing than anything else.

For example, a popular manufacturer in the UK markets...

Forget manufacturing.

You go to Boots and you will see condoms in different sizes.

You won't find any condom box in the UK that has the exact size

of the condom in the box.

I'm not saying they are, but what I am saying is you can't say

that all the others are one size fits all.

There are different sizes.

An exasperated Duncan Bannatyne takes issue

with the former financier's claim about the uniqueness of his product.

Now Peter Jones has concerns about Joe's business model.

I'm surprised that you haven't researched the market

profitability opportunity over a product like this with such

wide and varied range, when probably 80% of your sales will

come from, I would suggest, 10% of the lines that you are introducing.

90% of the lines that you introduce because you want to be wide

to the market kills your business model in terms of profitability.

I'm not sure what consumes cash so much of the business right now.

It is running and there were, admittedly, some start-up costs,

but they are kind of sunk costs. The website is a cost...

You are missing the point. Your issue is going to become,

when you scale, you have one major fundamental flaw in your business.

-Which is?

-Stock.

Do you intend to sell this in shops or just online?

-Just online.

-Because you know you can't sell it in a shop because...

-Shelf space.

-The shelf space.

You'd have 95 in a row and that is where the weakness is in this.

-That is a weakness.

-I don't see it as a weakness, Duncan.

I see it as...

People buy condoms from shops through force of habit

more than anything else.

If you move purchasing condoms online, you can take your time,

you can do it in the privacy of your own home, there is no embarrassment,

or awkwardness. You can do great things like customise the sizing.

Joe has made a convincing argument for keeping his business online, but

Kelly Hoppen has doubts about just how viable the whole concept is.

Durex is probably the biggest condom company.

-In the UK, yes.

-Why would they not have done something like this?

They're a very successful, they're sold everywhere.

Why would they not have come up with this idea?

The problem with this pitch to an established condom manufacturer

is that to make these is significantly more expensive

than a traditional condom.

Condoms are made in one size fits all

because doing that enables you to make them quickly, reliably,

but most importantly, cheaply,

but the key thing missing is satisfaction with using the product.

But you never hear about people complaining about the size

of condoms? Women carry condoms in their handbags.

What, are they going to say, "I don't know, I am going to have

"a guess on which size I am going to take tonight"?

-No, not at all.

-You could take all 95.

All I can say to you is,

I don't like the idea and I am going to tell you where I am.

-I am definitely out.

-I appreciate your time.

A first Dragon has declined the opportunity to invest

and with the net loss of £7,500 in his first year of trading,

Deborah Meaden wants to establish precisely why Joe

has valued his business at a cool £2 million.

Obviously the key to the valuation is not sitting in your trading

figures to date, so it is presumably sitting in the patent?

Actually, the patent doesn't make me sleep easily at night.

I was about to say I'd like to see the patent.

-Thank you.

-It covers the system of sizing,

so any system at all where I communicate to you, the manufacturer,

or the retailer, the size that I require, that is my patent.

-The meaning is...

-This does not stop other people sizing condoms.

This stops other people using your method of sizing condoms.

That is not true.

Any kind of communication from me, the consumer,

to you, the manufacturer or retailer, that is what that covers.

It has got to be defined in three dimensions.

-Well, most reference data for this product is...

-No, it isn't.

Small, medium and large is not defined in three dimensions.

I guess my point there, Deborah, is that no manufacturer will ever sell small condoms,

that is never going to sell with a label "small" on them.

The only bit that might have got my attention is that nobody else

could size their condoms.

Well, they can, they just need to use a different system,

but the real defining and crowning moment is you.

I don't know how to process that.

I couldn't work with you because you go into sales mode without

listening or really taking in the question.

So, I'm afraid I won't be investing. I'm out.

Deborah Meaden is convinced neither by the patent nor

the entrepreneur who holds it.

Will Piers Linney prove any more willing to offer Joe

the cash injection his condom business craves?

There is a market for people that do want a maybe more expensive,

well-fitted condom and maybe that is your market,

as opposed to trying to pretend it is a mass-market product.

We would all like to wear tailored clothing.

-That is a really great analogy because...

-I know it is.

..Peter's suits, for example, are excellent. The reason I don't wear

-a suit as great as Peter's, I don't have the money.

-That is my point.

You're going on about suit sizes, it is all irrelevant, Joe.

-Is it totally irrelevant?

-Yes, it is totally irrelevant.

I don't think it is irrelevant.

I think a condom that fits is a great thing.

Isn't it something you just take into that high-end market

and develop there, and you probably will sell some,

but the way you sort of pitched it,

I don't think it is going to work, so I'm afraid I'm out.

OK. Thank you.

Three Dragons have now walked away from the deal.

Time for a straight-talking Duncan Bannatyne to confront Joe

on some of his bold claims.

-"I am changing people's behaviour."

-Yes.

"I want to give free condoms to Third World countries."

Ultimately, once it is profitable enough, yes.

I think that is a nice aspiration...

-Anyway, Joe, I am out so there is no point in talking to me any more.

-OK.

-Joe, how do you feel it has gone?

-Wonderful.

It has been thoroughly energising.

I think the topic matter really puts people on edge, on the defensive.

You are right, the topic is always open for silly comments.

The reality is that... your business model is flawed.

The reason why some of the main brands work is because,

exactly as you have described, they have economies of scale,

they fit and reduced their overall skew.

I do think you will be averagely successful, because it is quirky.

But this is not an investment and certainly not £2 million,

so, Joe, I am not going to invest and I am out.

Thank you very much, Peter. Thank you very much, all of you guys. Cheers.

So Joe departs without the £200,000 investment he was seeking,

but at least his visit to the Den seems to have provided him

with a potential new customer.

I think I might go and grab one of those 3.5 inch ones.

I think a lot of people are caught on the back foot

just by the topic of sex and safe sex.

Some people think "condom" is some kind of expletive.

Until we start taking safe sex seriously

and being able to talk about it openly,

then we're going to continue to have the problems that we see today.

The humble patent can have a huge effect on the outcome of a pitch.

Sometimes it can be a deal clincher

and other times not worth the paper it is written on.

This does not stop other people sizing condoms.

Joe's paperwork fell down under Deborah Meaden's forensic

scrutiny and he is not the only entrepreneur to suffer that fate.

Have you got the patent with you?

I might want to see that letter of intent.

You cannot just give somebody a piece of paper that says

this is what is in it.

There is absolutely no way that I can tell from that

whether or not this is gluten-free.

The straight-talking businesswoman is renowned for her ability

to get to the nitty-gritty, so woe betide the entrepreneur

who does not give her questions straight answers.

Do you know what?

When I ask you what your turnover is going to be, it is a lot better

if you tell me what your turnover is going to be. How many have you sold?

We got off to a bit of a difficult start with it...

Duncan, I was kind of expecting a number because how many usually...

We have not really actively promoted the product this year. We simply...

-Is a number coming any time soon?

-OK. 70.

It would be really easy to have yes or no answers.

And if you resist those questions it just makes me

feel like you are trying to hide stuff.

She is always a force to be reckoned with

and you really don't want to get on the wrong side of Deborah Meaden.

I'm irritated. Yes, I am blinking irritated.

I'm really surprised at you not coming up with actual fact.

Please stop talking over the end of my...

Sorry, I didn't realise you'd not finished.

When there are words coming out of my mouth, I am still talking, yes?

But impress her and she can be an entrepreneur's greatest ally.

Sometimes, you know, I just invest in somebody

-because I think you come across really very well.

-Thank you.

Whatever else happens in this pitch, that is blinking marvellous.

Thank you.

I'll tell you what I really like about you, you know

exactly where you are and I think you are bang on.

Thank you and thank you for settling my nerves.

You are the first person that's ever felt that in front of Deborah.

I appreciate it.

There is a price comparison website for everything these days,

so is there money to be made by adding another one?

Next into the lift is Amir Hassan with his idea to help you

shop around for minicabs.

Will he be the latest to drive home an investment?

Hello, everyone. My name is Amir Hassan

and I am here today with my business, minicabit.com.

We are looking for a £75,000 investment in return for a 15%

share in the business.

Every year, ten million trips are taken by cab out of town,

all pretty much booked on the phone. And yet every day,

people across the UK are still having to sift through cards

and phone books dumped on their doormats,

having to gather phone numbers to call cab offices just to get a quote.

MinicabIt aims to make all of that a thing of the past.

Now you can book a trip to the airport, a meeting, a concert,

a night out, or even a visit to your grandma

in just a MinicabIt moment.

With our website and our mobile app, you can

instantly compare real-time quotes from a range of licensed

minicab providers across the UK.

The cab providers set the rates on our system.

The customer then pays for the fare in full on our site

and then once the trip is completed, we pay the cab provider, deducting

a 10% commission and a £1 booking fee in the process.

And that is why without any PR and marketing, we have already

attracted 100 licensed minicab operators across the UK

into our network.

Last month, £10,000 worth of bookings was placed through

MinicabIt and we will add a few zeros to that with your investment.

Thank you.

A confident pitch from former mobile phone technology man Amir Hassan.

So, you are going from Manchester to, let's say, Stoke-on-Trent.

His price comparison website and app promises to get

the best deals on out-of-town taxi journeys.

You just simply enter your card details

and then you can book your cab.

But with the meter running on Amir's time in the Den,

Duncan Bannatyne wants to get straight down to business.

You said, "We," a few times.

Was that a royal "we" or do you have a partner or investors?

I own 84%, however, I am actually setting aside 8% of that

as an equity options pool for the current and incoming team members.

Then I have Ed who owns about 8%, he is like a commercial adviser,

and then I have a corporate investor as well.

And that corporate investor owns how much?

-7.5%.

-So who are the corporates?

The corporate investor, it's a major telecoms company. They don't wish...

-Would you have worked for them in the past? Possibly?

-Possibly.

-OK.

And... Or possibly not. They don't wish to be named.

It doesn't matter. If you've come in for investment...

it's a bit like saying, "I've got a promise of £200,000."

"Oh, who is that from?" "I can't tell you."

Well, if I say it is one of the mobile phone operators...

It doesn't help me.

You need to decide here and now, do you want to disclose it

and we can have a conversation,

or do you want to withhold it and walk back in the lift?

-It's O2.

-OK.

Are they going to target their customer base with your app?

It's actually working with them on a Priority Moments offer.

And what does that mean?

So, customers, for instance,

if they are going to a particular concert or a particular venue,

they can see an offer might be £5 off your first booking

through MinicabIt, and they will see that offer.

What is your forecast profit this year?

With investment, we aim to do

£669,000 of gross booking revenue,

so that's a £52,000 gross profit.

-Net profit?

-Net profit, so in the first year,

-would be a loss of £48,500.

-Thank you.

Relief for the entrepreneur as he survives

a grilling from Peter Jones.

But there is something troubling Kelly Hoppen.

I have a bit of a problem with minicabs per se

because they have a... They have had a very bad reputation.

How do you know that the companies that you are putting

under your brand are going to match who you want to be in the market?

Sure.

First of all, we check that they are licensed and so on, and we have that

opportunity for customers to rate the drivers and the cabs and so on.

The other important thing is we hold the money,

so if there is an issue with the booking,

that really sharpens the performance of the cab firm.

I'm not excited by it and if I am going to invest in something,

not only does it have to be a business proposition,

but I have to want to be involved in it, so I am going to say

I am out very early because

it is just not something I would invest in.

Thank you.

If I was going to invest in a business like this, I would

invest in yours because I think you can do it, but it is a punt.

So, because of that and that reason only,

I am not going to invest but I wish you the best of luck

and I think there is a good chance you will make it, but I am out.

Thank you, Duncan.

Amir is two Dragons down as Kelly Hoppen and Duncan Bannatyne

take themselves out of the investment loop.

Now Peter Jones is ready to declare his decision.

I think you are very good and...

I think you have created a very lean business model,

and you have a product that has an opportunity to make it.

I think it is clever, you have brought a network

and got a network involved.

I'm going to make you an offer.

And I am going to offer you all of the money, £75,000,

but I want 40% of the business.

OK. Thank you.

Telecoms giant Peter Jones' offer is on the table,

but with a hefty price tag.

He wants 25% more equity than the entrepreneur is offering.

Which way will Deborah Meaden go?

Well, I have to say...

I think there is certainly legs in this.

I'm going to make you an offer.

And it is going to put you in a predicament because I am

going to make you the same offer as Mr Jones down there, so I am

going to offer you all of the money but I want 40% of the business.

Thank you. Thank you, Deborah.

Two identical offers on the table,

both for more equity than Amir had planned on giving away.

Now Piers Linney is the last Dragon in the race.

Amir, I think you are going to need to raise more money at some point,

whether it is to accelerate growth or maybe things did not go quite to

plan, sometimes they don't, maybe not huge amounts, but who knows?

So I think you need to be incentivised, and your team too.

So I am also going to make you an offer, so all the money...

but for 30%.

Thank you, Piers.

-Can I take a moment to think? PETER:

-Yeah.

By going in with a better offer,

Piers Linney has made a potentially game-changing move.

Can the entrepreneur turn the situation to his advantage?

First of all, thank you for your offers

and thank you for listening to me as well.

I would like to ask, first of all, would you be open to all

three of you co-investing in MinicabIt and bringing your range

of expertise to what is going to be a very fantastic opportunity?

I wouldn't, Amir, and I will tell you why.

Sometimes you can get too much advice in a business.

You're going to have too many voices and too many people chipping in,

-so I personally would not be part of a trio of three Dragons.

-OK.

Would you be willing to come down on your percentages,

Peter and Deborah, at all?

If we were to do something - I don't know whether Deborah would accept -

but if there was something where I shared an investment with Deborah,

for example, you've got the power of two,

-then I would be prepared to drop to 15%.

-Yeah.

In other words, I would give you back 5%

if you proved the business model in the next 12 months.

So, you are saying 15% each, subject to hitting a certain target?

No, we are saying 20% each,

but if you hit the targets which you have given us here today...

-I would hand back 5%, Peter would hand back 5%.

-Yeah.

Do you have any thoughts on that, Piers?

It gets too complicated, doesn't it?

It depends, you seem to want more than one Dragon, isn't it?

That's what you seem to be pitching for.

You want a boardroom full of people, don't you?

-It's about building a coalition of experts.

-Right.

So, my offer is the same offer, 30% for all of the money, fixed,

no messing about, whether you hit your targets or not.

It is a tough one.

Should Amir choose Piers Linney's financially better offer,

or go for the power of two Dragons?

But the entrepreneur has not finished negotiating yet.

My concern really is, I'll be open, I think 40% is very strong...

..and I am not that comfortable with ratchets,

just because I am so invested in it already

and I actually think it could do it a disservice.

If, for whatever reason, we do not hit that metric,

you have got a key man who feels punished, so...

I like your offer, Piers...

If you can both move to as close to 30% as possible

without a ratchet, then I'd be comfortable with that.

This is an unusual scene in the Den -

an entrepreneur who is in the driving seat of the negotiations.

Has Amir done enough to convince Deborah Meaden

and Peter Jones to drop their conditions?

I would revise my offer and it will sit between Piers' offer

and my original offer, and this will be it.

So I will offer you half of the money, so that's 37,500, for...

-..17.5% of the business.

-Thank you.

-Would you be interested in matching that?

-Erm...I would.

I would match that offer.

I am not going to move where I am. My 30% still stands.

But I do want to sort of... I am quite keen to invest with you.

OK. So, I've decided...

Piers, thank you for your offer.

It's a small world and hopefully we will deal with each other again,

-but I would like to accept Deborah and Peter's offer.

-Excellent!

Thank you. APPLAUSE

Thank you.

Amir has done it.

It took guts to negotiate with the Dragons,

but it was worth it in the end and the plucky entrepreneur leaves

the Den with two well-connected businesspeople on board.

I saw Piers was really enthusiastic and I thought, "Great,"

but deep down, I always wanted Deborah and I wanted Peter

and I thought between them, they can cover more bases.

Time will tell if it was the right decision or whether I should've gone

with the sweeter deal that Piers was offering,

but, you know, being an entrepreneur is all about taking risks.

A dramatic finale there.

Have you noticed that relatively few

entrepreneurs in the Den have the nerve to say no to the Dragons?

So all credit to Amir Hassan for proving you can negotiate

with them, however formidable they appear.

Which brings the day to a close.

The conversation about all of tonight's pitches

continues on Twitter, using the hashtag #dragonsden.

Next time in the Den -

Tell me what the numbers are and I will tell you if they are modest.

About 395.

-Were you looking at your hand?

-No, it is a tattoo!

I'm as excited about this as I would be to invest in an ejector seat

-in a helicopter.

-You invented a faster way of writing on parchment

with a quill the day before the printing press was invented.

With all the PR that you've had, I would've thought that you

would've had a much more successful business by now.

Calm down.