Episode 2 Dragons' Den

PETER: You're deluded in your approach.

-DUNCAN:

-It doesn't matter what the business is,

it's my return that matters.

-KELLY:

-I would want 40%.

-PIERS:

-Would you invest in it?

DEBORAH: I'm irritated. PETER: I'm out.

These are the Dragons - wealthy, well-connected,

innovative and influential.

Each week, they make or break the dreams

of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

In the Den, leisure and marketing expert, Deborah Meaden...

telecoms giant, Peter Jones,

hotel and health club owner, Duncan Bannatyne,

founder of her own global interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen

and cloud computing expert and former City financier, Piers Linney.

With thousands to lose but millions to gain,

the Dragons are prepared to fight for that next shrewd investment.

In the last decade,

over 900 entrepreneurs have faced the Dragons, and investment

offers of £14.5 million have been made in this room.

To face them takes nerve and vision,

so who will leave with the Dragons' money?

Welcome back to the Dragons' Den, where entrepreneurs with ideas

and inventions strive to impress our five wealthy Dragon investors.

Only the best will get the cash their business needs.

Coming up on tonight's show...

Deborah, it's got nothing to do with you, you're out.

-Yeah, but this isn't fair.

-You're out.

Try it for me.

Tell me what dog food tastes like.

I think you passed Peter's little test there. Well done.

I think it is ridiculous.

This comedy took a very dark turn

when you said you'd invested £1 million.

First to face our five tycoons is serial entrepreneur Tej Randeva.

He wants cash to launch a new nationwide fast food

franchise business.

It's a model used by some of the most famous names

on the high street and it's one that can be very profitable.

BHANGRA MUSIC PLAYS

-Thank you.

-Very good.

Hello, Dragons.

My name's Tej Randeva and I'm the CEO of Spice 2 Go.

I'm looking for £75,000 for a 10% share in my Indian food

franchise business.

The Spice 2 Go concept came from my experience at Domino's Pizza

where I spent several years as a franchisee.

The Indian takeaway market is worth a staggering £3.8 billion

in the UK alone, with the average Brit

spending around £15,000 on curry in their lifetime.

And this got me thinking - why isn't there a brand in this...

HE CLEARS THROAT ..in this market, huge market?

We currently have two stores operating in the South Wales region.

My vision is to have Spice 2 Go stores all across the UK,

hundreds and hundreds around the UK, making it a household brand.

Thank you very much for listening to my pitch.

In the meantime, I've brought some food for you guys to have a taste.

Please join me to have some food.

A nervous pitch from Tej Randeva who is looking to do for curry

what Domino's have done for pizza.

-Chana masala's not very spicy.

-Which one's that?

Tej is seeking £75,000 in return for a 10% stake

in his fast food franchise business.

First to question the Welsh entrepreneur is Piers Linney.

TEJ EXHALES SHARPLY

You have not explained, unless I missed it,

exactly what on Earth you do.

-OK.

-What is it? A takeaway? Is it a shop? Is it fresh? What is it?

Is it frozen?

It's an Indian food franchise for potentially having

a brand in the Indian takeaway industry, yeah.

Indian takeaway, you've got two in Wales and you want to

take on all those Indian takeaways all over the country?

We want to introduce a brand into the marketplace,

not just an Indian takeaway.

Every time we launch a store, just as you saw the dancers there,

that's the kind of appearance we have.

We involve the community, make sure the brand has a presence locally.

We want to be shared on social media and be known about, saying,

"Oh, I've just had a Spice 2 Go today."

And I think that's the kind of cool brand,

exciting brand that we want to be.

After a less-than-perfect start,

the fast food entrepreneur is beginning to gain his composure.

Now Deborah Meaden wants to find out more about his two

existing takeaways.

Take your best of those two businesses,

how long's that been trading?

Eh, that's been trading since...February 2013.

So, in that year, what was your turnover?

Eh, February to February turnover was...

..around £92,000.

What's your gross profit?

It should be around 12, 13%.

I hope that's not right.

Can I give you a scenario based on...?

-No, hold on a minute, this is pretty standard business language.

-Mm-hm.

So, what is...? So, your turnover is 92,000,

what are your direct cost-of-sales against those?

OK, I'm really sorry, I haven't thought about that answer.

Something I really should know the answer to, I'm really sorry.

-Oh, boy, you should know the answer to.

-I know, I'm sorry.

Both stores are running at a loss at the moment,

so we are focusing on getting the brand, consistency,

making sure that it works before we start to franchise out.

I feel really anxious listening to you.

The more I listen to the fact that you don't know your figures,

it doesn't make me feel confident that this is a business that

can make money or has legs.

I just think I came in here sort of nervous and...

I appreciate that but you'd think you'd wake up and smell the curry.

A shaky grasp of the numbers combined with an admission

that his Welsh takeaways are currently running at a loss

are causing immediate concerns among the Dragons.

And now Peter Jones

wants to interrogate the figures even further.

How much money have you put into this?

About between £900,000 and £1 million.

-DRAGONS GASP

-Whoa.

-You have not.

I have.

You should have called it Money 2 Go.

TEJ LAUGHS NERVOUSLY

-Where did you get that other money from?

-I have other businesses.

What are the other businesses?

I bought two Domino's franchises for £280,000 each

and we sold them for £835,000 recently.

And I own a transport broker group which is the UK's largest

brokerage for limousines, wedding cars, coaches...

-You own that group?

-Yes.

You've made a million pounds or more

and you've put a million pounds into Spice 2 Go.

Mm-hm. I believe this brand can work.

I'm chasing my dream and a vision

and I had the same vision for my transport broker group.

News of Tej's previous business success has given the Dragons

pause for thought.

But there's something about his product which is not quite to

Piers Linney's taste.

So, what is it about your curries that are so special?

-I mean, I've tried one. To me, that tastes like a microwave curry.

-OK.

I think this is where we need to have more development in the food

area as well because trying...

When you say "we", you don't own that company.

No, we don't own the kitchen.

A lot of the Indian takeaways do rely on chefs.

We've eliminated that problem altogether,

there is no chef in our place, it's pretty easy to operate our system.

We have one central chef in one central kitchen,

they do everything, they develop everything and it will be consistent

so you could have a curry in Manchester or London or anywhere

in the country, it will taste exactly the same as it did in Bristol.

Tej is confident that a consistent offering will set Spice 2 Go

apart from the competition.

But Deborah Meaden is concerned about how much appeal

the business would have to a potential franchisee.

We've stripped away that you don't know the numbers,

you're actually losing money at the moment,

you've got nothing to sell to a franchisee other than brand,

so which bit do I look at and think, "Ah, that's Spice 2 Go"?

Those boxes there, that's how we deliver our curries.

Within 24 minutes, it's at your door, so...

But that's service.

-What's brand?

-I think service is part of the brand.

Yeah, OK, you're right, service is part of the brand

but I've got to be able to recognise something.

I think if I can answer in one, Deborah,

I think it's consistency that...

-Oh, Tej, honestly.

-Does it come delivered...?

Can I just finish this, Kelly?

You have failed to give any information at all.

I would have given up ages ago but this comedy took a very dark turn

when you said you'd invested £1 million.

Tej, I...

SHE SIGHS

I'm going out because there is not one reason to invest.

-OK, well, I'm sorry I didn't give you that satisfaction.

-I'm out.

With Deborah Meaden out, Tej has lost his first Dragon.

Will Peter Jones be any more willing to offer him

the investment that could turn Spice 2 Go into a household name?

-Your brand is actually all over that box, isn't it?

-It is, yeah.

-Well, I think that's quite well branded, actually.

-Pfft!

I quite like Spice 2 Go - it says what it does on the tin.

But the reality is I don't think you've brought anything unique

and different, so if I was to give you £75,000,

I don't think it would last very long and I'm worried...

I think £75,000, me spending it, yeah, you're probably right,

it wouldn't last very long.

KELLY LAUGHS And I think having, having, having...

Quite clearly, my track record has shown that.

I am an investor.

I put my money into something because I believe that

I can get a return on my investment.

You're not demonstrating that you can do that,

so I'm going to say I'm out.

OK.

I'm not going to waste anybody's time or bore anyone by going

over the same things over and over again.

I'm out.

Three Dragons have now bowed out.

Only Kelly Hoppen and Piers Linney remain.

I don't like the actual business model,

-the fact that it definitely isn't fresh Indian food.

-Yeah.

It's pre-packaged.

I think that the systems, that could be changed, we could...

That's not a system, that's a fundamental part of your business.

-So, for that reason, I'm out.

-OK. Thank you.

I'm fearful for you that you're going to leave here

and not take advice and you're going to continue...

-No, I will take advice.

-..to put money into it.

There is a side of me that thinks it could have been a great idea

and I think the name is very good

but there is absolutely no way that I would invest in this.

-So, I'm sorry, but I'm out.

-OK, thank you.

So, a deflated Tej leaves the Den empty-handed.

Despite an all-singing, all-dancing start, his plans to deliver

curry in a hurry ultimately failed to fire up the Dragons.

I think they missed a great opportunity here

and I think they'll be kicking themselves.

Spice 2 Go will become a national brand,

it will become a household brand and, take my word for it, it will happen.

From fast food to pet food.

It's a market worth an estimated £2 billion each year in this country.

And pet owners are becoming more discerning as to what

they feed their animals.

Healthy options are increasingly in demand.

Our next entrepreneurs, Daniel Eha and Mat Cockroft,

hope their new dog food will find a place in the market.

Hi there, I'm Daniel and this is Mat, and we're from Pure Pet Food.

We've come here today seeking a £40,000 investment

for a 10% stake in our business.

Pure manufactures a range of dehydrated dog food products.

The unavailability of low-processed

and natural options has actually led to a number of owners

beginning to feed a raw or a home-prepared diet to their pets.

Although the idea of raw feeding or home cooking is a fantastic

idea in principle, in reality,

it can actually cause a lot of inconvenience for owners.

Pure allows them to conveniently feed low-processed food with real

nutritional integrity, just like raw or home-prepared food, but

crucially retains all the convenience of a commercial pet food product.

Pure launched eight months ago,

receiving fantastic coverage from both local and national press.

Since then, Pure has been launched in over 100 pet specialist stores.

This first eight months culminated in Pure being awarded

the Pet Product Innovation Of The Year award by world-renowned

industry body PetQuip.

We feel this is a fantastic opportunity to be

involved in a young and exciting company placed in a market that

has defied recession and sits at the high-growth end of the sector.

We'll now take any questions and if any of you have skipped lunch

and are feeling brave, we'd more than welcome you to give it a quick try.

Delivering their vision for a nutritious dog food...

-Thank you.

-..this Yorkshire duo want £40,000 for a 10% stake

in their company.

Thank you very much.

But are any of the Dragons willing to put their mouth

where their money is?

-PETER:

-Daniel, Mat, hello.

-BOTH: Hi there.

You said about trying it.

Could you grab the bowl and try it for me?

Yeah, I'll have a small bit.

I normally deal with developing the recipes.

No, but if you just take a few mouthfuls and then

while you take those mouthfuls, tell me what dog food tastes like.

It's a very meaty consistency which is obviously fantastic for dogs.

There's liver, muscle meat in there.

I have just eaten so I won't eat tremendous amounts of it

but more than happy to eat it.

-DEBORAH:

-Sorry, can I smell it?

-Yeah.

-I think you passed Peter's little test there. Well done.

-Thank you.

With the challenge over, Deborah Meaden,

who has previously invested in a pet treats business,

now wants to understand more about what goes into this product.

Is anything lost in this process?

What hasn't this got that raw food has got?

I would say the fruit and veg in it is technically classed as raw

and it's only been air-dried

and the meats have only been air-dried to a temperature

where it removes the risk of pathogens

but it's not harming the natural amino acids in the meat.

We often call it raw without the thaw,

it's as close to raw or fresh food as you can get, really.

We're backed by a few of the leading vets throughout the UK

who now recommend Pure.

-You've been in business eight months.

-Yep.

And how many have you sold again?

Eh, turnover's just been over £35,000.

So, how much is each one?

Those smaller bags are priced between around £7 to £10.

Typically, your Pedigree Chum-type biscuits...

Is this expensive? I have no idea.

Well, wet foods, for instance, are priced above that, generally.

It's not something where we're creating a new ceiling on the price,

it's very much what people are paying for good-quality foods already.

And why are you going to win in that enormous pet food market with

huge brands out there that, you know, could do this in a heartbeat?

What stops somebody just copying this?

We've got no proprietary rights on it,

-just because it is such a simple process.

-That's not a good thing.

Yeah, I know,

but I guess the main thing that stops a lot of the larger companies,

presumably, is the minute they start making this product, it's ringing

alarm bells to everyone else that this thing that we're making

billions of pounds out of every year is not adequate any more.

Well, they do until the day they see you making billions of pounds.

Correct. Well, we've already got a bit of a first-mover advantage.

Word does spread quite quickly and people aren't referring to

it as dehydrated food, they already refer to it as Pure food.

We could talk about this for hours, which is great.

I mean, I've got to hand it to you guys.

To be fair, it looks like a good product, you've done your homework.

I'm really trying to get behind you on this one

because I think you're great.

But I just don't get the market

and I'm not going to waste your time.

I'll wish you all the best, but I'm out.

There's lots of goodwill towards Daniel and Mat

but the niche appeal of their product isn't for everyone.

With Piers Linney gone, four Dragons remain,

including pet food investor Deborah Meaden.

Obviously, to be fair to anybody I invest in, I need to think about the

relationship between any existing investment and any new investment.

So, I was sitting here thinking, "Would it be fair?"

So, I think if I'm very clear

and open with you then I think there is a way that I can be fair.

There would be certain things that we would do on our own as Pure

but I would have to join those together at some point

because otherwise I'm going to feel conflicted.

You're going to look at me thinking, "Whose interests has she got at heart?"

But, you know, you'd have to believe me

that I would make sure that everybody got the best out of it.

So, you'd have all the benefits of the contacts, so I'm going to

offer you all of the money but I want 30% of the business.

-OK.

-OK.

-Thank you, thank you very much.

With her experience and her connections,

Deborah Meaden serves up an inviting offer.

But there's still time for other Dragons to take her on.

Guys, you've...you've been fantastic.

You've made dog food almost cool in the Den, which is amazing.

And the fact that you even then ate your own product,

I'm kind of thinking these guys are committed.

My issue is that...

..I'm not convinced potentially without some

sort of link that perhaps Deborah has, the size of the potential

business, and the speed at which you could get a decent income out of it.

I'm going to say that I'm out

but wish you every bit of luck that you clearly deserve.

BOTH: Thank you very much.

-DUNCAN:

-Um, Daniel, Mat.

I agree with Peter, I think you pitched very, very well.

Probably one of the best pitches I've seen in the Den in ten years.

You obviously know your stuff.

I love the brand as well, the Pure, I can see that selling.

I really don't think there's anything I can add to your business.

-OK.

-I don't think it'd be fair for me to make an offer, so,

for that reason only, I'm going to wish you the best of luck,

I think you'll do fantastic, but I'm out.

BOTH: Thank you.

Kelly Hoppen is the only Dragon remaining.

Will she compete with Deborah Meaden's offer?

Guys, um, I don't have a dog but my daughter and step-daughters

have always had animals

and every person I know that has a dog seems to look

after their dog as well as they look after their children,

so there's definitely a market there.

What I do know is that you need good marketing which I can help you with.

I love the name, I like the packaging,

I think both of you are great.

So, I'd like to make you an offer for the full amount

but I'd like 20% of the business.

-OK. Thank you very much.

-Thank you very much.

A surprise move from Kelly Hoppen who,

despite not even owning a dog, has undercut Deborah Meaden.

The entrepreneurs now have to weigh up one Dragon's marketing guile

against another one's first-rate contact book.

Would either of you potentially be able to go slightly

-lower at all on those equity levels?

-I wouldn't and I'll tell you why.

The biggest thing I can add for you is to open doors.

Now, I can do that...instantly.

And I can make a big difference to this small business.

I also don't want to drop...the percentage.

I feel that I could help you grow this business very quickly

and I would enjoy doing it, which is most important for me.

That's good.

-Should we...?

-Are we OK to have a quick chat?

(OK.)

(Basically, it's a high-equity stake,)

(higher than we were both prepared to give away.)

(We could do something with those contacts,)

-(the contacts she could provide.)

-(Yep.)

-Ready?

-Yeah.

Well, firstly, thank you very much for your offers,

we really appreciate all of your time.

Out of the two offers,

just because of the contacts that were possible,

we're looking at Deborah's offer.

But we're not comfortable giving away that

amount of the company at this stage and we've worked

so hard to get it to where it is now and we believe in it so much

and the complication of your other brands as well...we don't feel

comfortable with that, do we?

I think it's something that,

although we appreciate you guys, we genuinely believe we can do it.

We want to give it a go and we feel we can get there.

I think you'll regret that decision.

-We really appreciate your time, thank you very much.

-Good luck, guys.

Thank you. See you later.

Daniel and Mat snub both offers and walk away without any investment,

to the astonishment of the Den.

I sort of admire them for that business, crazy.

To be honest, they should have taken the offer but what I do think

is, what I liked is that if they're uncomfortable, I'd rather know now.

We were always cautious that there might be some

conflict of interest there and what she proposed and the equity

stake, in the end, it was just a bit too much for us, to be honest.

It just didn't feel right.

Another entrepreneur hoping for a Dragon to elevate her

business was Joan McCrossan, who came to the Den with her son George,

looking for £65,000 for a 35% stake in her male grooming product range.

Colour Me Shave comes in five vibrant colours with its own unique scent.

But apart from the funky side of the gel,

it does really give you a great shave.

Piers Linney was eager to put her claims to the test.

-That's it.

-Keep going, Piers, come on.

-That's perfect. If you feel it, your skin should be quite soft.

-Yeah.

Feel.

The other Dragons were

impressed by the smoothness of Piers Linney's complexion...

No chance.

THEY LAUGH

..but were less impressed by some of Joan's answers.

Especially where her gel sits in the marketplace.

-What's the price of the product?

-It's £9.99.

-Wow.

-Yep.

That's a big issue, isn't it? And what's the cost?

It currently costs me £3.51.

-Crikey.

-But we can get it down to a pound.

-Yeah, you need to.

-Yeah.

Forget the pricing and everything else, I think it is ridiculous.

And your skin, I don't know, it still looks a bit pink.

I mean, are you sure if we put George under ultraviolet light,

he doesn't look like some sort of ninja?

Not letting up on the colour theme,

Piers Linney thought the neon gels were a throwback to the 1990s.

They don't look particularly natural,

it looks like something you'd get in a Day-Glo stick in a nightclub.

Yes, yes, but it is aqua-based, it does wash out.

So, if I said to George, "Can I pour that pink bottle down your nice,

"new white T-shirt?" he wouldn't flinch?

No, I'd have to go and buy a box of Daz or something.

Peter Jones also turned his attention to George.

This time, his loyalty to Mum and the brand she's created.

-Do you love your mum?

-I do, yes.

-If I ask you a question, will you answer it honestly?

-I will, yeah.

Do you use this every day or do you use another product as well?

When I shave now, I do use this product, yes.

-Do you pay for it?

-No.

Of course not.

And his mother's thrown out everything else in his bathroom.

DUNCAN LAUGHS

It was left to Kelly Hoppen to sum up the mood in the Den.

If I had been you, I wouldn't have done the colour,

I would have just had lovely scents in a beautiful bottle for less money

and I think you might've then been able to sell it for what it

actually does for the skin rather than this gimmick which

I honestly think is ridiculous.

-I wish you luck but I'm out.

-Thank you very much.

So far in the Den,

one entrepreneur has revealed he spent a seven-figure sum...

How much money have you put into this?

Between £900,000 and £1 million.

-Whoa.

-You have not.

-I have.

-..and another pair turned down a five-figure sum.

-It's crazy.

They need to stop eating that dog food and eat some real food,

get some nutrition in their bodies so they can make sensible decisions.

But still no investment.

So, what for the hopefuls yet to emerge from the lift?

So, at what stage of your life did you decide to start selling

dead things?

I just can't believe you make that much money out of one book.

-You're out.

-Yeah, but they cannot possibly agree.

If you don't think you can deliver that,

there's no point wasting my time.

Next to face the Dragons, Johnny Shimmin and Annie Morris.

I could call them "cereal" entrepreneurs

because they're in the breakfast business, but I won't.

I'll just say they're trying to break into a crowded market.

Hello, Dragons.

My name's Johnny Shimmin and this is my business partner, Annie Morris,

and we're the founders of a breakfast business called Spoon Cereals.

We're here today to ask you for £50,000 in exchange for 10% equity in

our start-up business to help take us to the next stage of our development.

Finding a time for a healthy

and tasty breakfast cereal during the week is a struggle for many

people due to their long commutes on the way to work each morning.

So, Annie and I started Spoon Cereals around six months ago

and since that time, we've been trading at food fairs

and markets where we've sold our fresh pots where we can,

but mainly our dry packs for people to take away with them.

Not only do we use high-quality ingredients

but we also allow our customers to build their very own bowl from

our range of handmade granola and mueslis which our customers

can then top up with our exciting and fresh toppings.

In the last couple of weeks, we've been running at a pop-up

site in Old Street Station in the London Underground.

The feedback that we've had on our product so far has been excellent

and we feel that the business has a lot of momentum right now.

We feel that there's a lot of interesting ways that the

business can develop in the future and Annie

and I particularly would like to go down the wholesale route, ultimately.

So, Annie and I are now going to make you up a pot of our granola

with some banana yoghurt, some fresh blueberries and some toasted almonds.

A wholesome pitch from Johnny Shimmin and Annie Morris,

who want to transform our breakfast routine

with their bespoke eat-on-the-move cereal pots.

Kelly, I know you're gluten intolerant

-so we got you a gluten-free granola there.

-Thank you.

They're also hoping to break into retail by selling

packs of their dry product to supermarkets.

Duncan Bannatyne is first to question the entrepreneurs.

Um, so what exactly are you going to wholesale?

-The dry packs, the packs that we've just handed out.

-Just the packs?

-Just the packs.

-That's all? So what's the point of these?

Well, this was the core concept -

to have a great-tasting cereal that you could get on the go.

And I think that we've come to the realisation that we can make

a profitable business out of having our own sites,

but it's never going to be super big.

And we've decided to shift that focus,

going forward a little bit, towards the wholesale market

because we know that there's a market for the product that we're selling.

-But you've got huge competition, haven't you?

-Absolutely.

So, how are you going to compete with them?

We know that it's a crowded market but it's also a very large market.

It's a market of about £1.9 billion in the UK.

The answer that we've had

when we've had these debates internally is that we come

back to the product that we're offering

and the feedback that we get daily from people about the fresh pots.

Can't you package this and sell it? And it comes and you take the lid off?

We've had a lot of requests for that and it's something...

You know, when I mentioned in the pitch about interesting

areas for development, again, we've had these discussions.

There's lots of areas where we think you could develop it and we have

to think about the packaging and exactly what the right product is.

Well, I had something similar to this for breakfast this morning.

And it was sent here by post.

-OK. With the wet ingredients included in there?

-Mm.

OK. And was it good?

-It was very good.

-OK.

And that's your competition.

A bad start to questioning as Duncan Bannatyne highlights

just what the fledgling company is up against.

Now, Piers Linney wants to get personal

and find out more about this entrepreneurial double act.

So, what's the story between you two?

Or the history or the relationship?

Erm, so I have a background in graphic design

and worked in advertising for a couple of years

and then Johnny is my sister's boyfriend.

Johnny works in private equity and he moved...

Well, you can explain, can't you?

So, I was living in Amsterdam for the last six years

and I moved back to London in October.

-So, you're out of the private equity investment fund?

-Totally.

-When I came back to London, I...

-So, you made some money doing that?

-A little bit of money, not too much.

-And you've backed this so far?

-So far, it's been my backing, yes.

-And how much have you put into it?

We've put in £25,000 so far.

The bank account's running at about 8k at the moment.

And how are you living at the moment?

So, we've both been on this full-time since about January

and so I'm living off my savings and also funding the business.

And I'm living off savings as well.

So, money's going fast.

Yeah, so we put a sort of six-month runway on it to get

the project up and running and I think that it might be that it

-needs a little bit more money at some point.

-How long can you keep going?

If no more money went into the business,

then we're probably looking at another three months.

So, a product that is super healthy

but a cash-flow situation which is anything but.

Will Kelly Hoppen throw the entrepreneurs the financial

lifeline they so desperately need?

I love the name Spoon and the branding

but I think this business, to really make it grow and to be big,

because I've been involved in another business very similar,

you have to build the brand.

You have to have a story, a book, other recipes.

I don't think you can just make enough return just on a cereal

and I would not feel comfortable taking a percentage of your

business because you're too small, I think, to be in the Den right now.

I'm not going to invest so I'm afraid I'm out.

-DUNCAN:

-Um, Johnny, Annie,

you have got a very good product, it's a good brand,

it looks good, it's packaged very, very well.

But it's a lot of work.

Not just making a profit from these products but making a profit

in the supermarkets anyway cos they squeeze your margins so hard.

I know they're squeezing mine.

-So, I wish you the best of luck but I'm out.

-Thanks, Duncan.

I'm going to tell you where I am.

I think it's a bit of a cottage business, potentially,

so I can't see how you can invest 50k and make a return.

I think where you can succeed is retail, and there,

you're just going to hit a shelf of this stuff.

It's hugely competitive.

And adding the value by experience is great but that's not actually

a business as far as I'm concerned. So, good luck with it, but I'm out.

Thanks, Piers.

Three Dragons have declared themselves out.

With only two possible investors still in the mix, it's crunch time.

It's a really, really tough ask in what you're trying to do,

it's a big challenge, and I think when you then want to try

and move into the retail space, you know,

there's lots of companies that are even struggling today,

and I know how tough and competitive that market is.

But I think the branding's fantastic.

I like Spoon, I like the cereals, I like the whole concept

but I think that you've done a really good job of packaging it

and seeing this on a shelf, you can

imagine at the end of a gondola, you can see where that could go.

So, on that basis, I'm going to make you an offer.

PIERS SNORTS

And I'm offering it on the basis that I think I could do quite a lot

because I've got a current team that work in this area with retailers,

particularly with foods,

and obviously with Levi in the background,

this is something that is tied in very, very well

with our experience with retail.

So, I'm going to ask for a little bit more

but I'm going to make you an offer of 50,000, so all the money,

but I want 30% of the business.

OK. Thank you very much.

An offer, and one from a Dragon

with an impressive food portfolio to boot.

But Deborah Meaden is still in

and she's remained tight-lipped throughout.

Which way will she go?

So, great news is it's not complicated.

It's lovely and simple, I can see exactly what it is.

It's presented rather beautifully,

I think the simplicity of this is lovely.

Um, so I'm going to make you an offer

and I'm going to offer you all of the money, but I agree with Peter.

I think it needs a lot of time in working that out because you

are very early on your journey, so I too would want 30% of the business.

-BOTH:

-Thank you.

-Can we have a couple of minutes just to chat? PETER:

-Of course.

-(So?) ANNIE:

-(What do you think?)

-( ..15 each?)

-(Yeah.)

-(Let's try that.)

-(OK.)

(If not, we'll...)

Um, Annie and I would like to ask if you'd consider working

together on this for the equity percentages that you've talked about?

-So, dropping to 15%?

-Correct.

I wouldn't have any qualms about sharing with Deborah

because we're at 15% still,

but you'd have to ask Ms Meaden.

And Deborah?

-Yeah, I'd be happy to do that.

-Well, fantastic.

-Brilliant.

-We'd love to work with both of you in that case.

-Excellent.

-Thank you so much.

-Good.

Johnny and Annie have done it.

They may have given away more equity than they'd planned,

but they've managed to cut a deal with two multimillionaire investors.

Thanks, guys.

Amazing, amazing.

I can't wait to tell my mum.

I think we're going to hear a lot about Spoon.

-You going to leave out the spooning jokes?

-No, no spooning, Deborah.

DEBORAH CHUCKLES

Whether you're on the receiving end of an investment or not,

it takes absolute belief in your business

to face the formidable five.

It's scary. You walk in and they're very, very scary.

It was quite nerve-racking going into the Den.

You're always on your guard.

When there's five Dragons looking at you,

it's the hardest thing in the world.

Norman Wright was next in the Den.

He was looking for £50,000 for 20% of his natural history

and taxidermy retail business aptly named The Weird And Wonderful.

The Weird And Wonderful is a high street natural history store

that prides itself on providing the highest-quality products

while focusing on sustainability and ethical practice.

In my first year, I turned over £57,000

and reinvested most of this back into the company to aid growth.

Norman's products gave Peter Jones the heebie-jeebies.

-Is the other half of that buffalo behind the screen?

-No.

-Do you live on your own?

-I currently live with my parents.

-What do your parents think of this?

-They love it.

-Do they?

-Yeah.

So, at what stage of your life

did you decide to start selling dead things?

Interior designer Kelly Hoppen could see that Norman's idea had

the bones of a successful venture.

I know that actually this could be an enormous business

because I've seen some of the greatest

-taxidermists in the world have got incredible showrooms in Paris.

-Yeah.

Jo Wood's son does an incredible artistic taxidermist with art

and sculpture and whatever.

But I would not put any of this in the work that I do.

Deborah Meaden thought she had spotted

a skeleton in the closet of Norman's ethical business.

What about these poor little creatures here?

The entomology is bred for display.

Sorry, so this little creature was bred for the purpose

-of sticking in a picture?

-Yeah, but although that sounds bad...

-Oh, that sounds bad.

-..it's regulated.

That still doesn't make it right.

I'm buying from breeders rather than taking from the wild.

You're actually giving something back to the communities that

breed them rather than just taking.

Do you see that this potentially might encourage more?

I don't want to encourage anyone, obviously, to go out and start

shooting animals to fill collections, I want to supply ethical taxidermy.

Yeah, but you say that on one hand and yet you justify

that by your biggest-selling line is something that's bred to be killed.

Soon, it was Norman's pitch which was to be terminated.

I just don't get it, it's bonkers.

I mean, you may as well call it zoodeath.com. It's a fashion.

I don't think this is weird and wonderful, I think this is weird,

weird, weird. So, I'm not going to invest. For that reason, I'm out.

OK. Thank you very much.

He had to fight or flee, and Norman ultimately chose to flee,

and the Dragons were keen to see the back of his products.

I'd be terrified to be left alone with him.

That buffalo hasn't stopped looking at me.

Anyway, where's my fur coat?

You can make money by selling stuff.

But you can make more money by selling stuff that makes

consumers feel special,

and our final entrepreneurs are using technology to do exactly that.

-Here we go.

-Off we go.

-Hello, everyone, my name is Asi.

-My name's David.

David and I are two of four friends who, together,

made Lost My Name, a magical personalised book for children.

We've taken the idea of a children's personalised book to

a completely new level and we like to think that we've created

the best personalised book on the market.

So, the books are called The Little Girl Who Lost Her Name

and The Little Boy Who Lost His Name

and they follow a child on a marvellous, magical adventure.

So, this is how it works. You go to our website.

And you put in the name of a child.

So, in this case, we'll put in Emily.

And then you choose boy or girl, so, girl. Hit preview.

And we work our magic behind the scenes,

choosing from a huge database of storage and illustrations.

And you can see your book.

So, if we just open it,

here she is, the little girl's woken up

and, oh, her name's disappeared. So off she goes to find it.

She meets an eagle,

flies into the sky on its back,

then she meets a mermaid,

little girl helps her out.

Next she meets an Inuit man who can't stand the cold.

Next she meets a lion.

And finally, a genial and very, very clever yeti.

All of these characters give the girl the first letter of their name.

So E for eagle, M for mermaid,

I for Inuit, L for lion,

Y for yeti and - hey presto - her name is found.

If you like it, you order it online,

we print it and we deliver it to your door in days.

Thank you, David. Erm, Lost My Name started as a pet project.

We launched it back in October last year

and since then, in six months,

we've sold 30,000 copies of the books,

we've shipped them to over 60 countries in the world,

and we did it with very little marketing spend.

We're going to create a new, exciting company

that combines the power of stories

with the possibility of technology

to create more magical, amazing experiences for children.

We're here today to invite you to join our seed investment round,

and we're asking for £100,000

for 4% equity in our business.

-Thank you for listening.

-Could we see one of the books?

-Yes.

-Thank you.

A tall tale or a winning pitch from Asi and David?

They're looking for a hefty £100,000

for just 4% of their innovative children's book.

The team behind Lost My Name

just have to hope they haven't already lost Peter Jones' interest.

Guys, when you were pitching it,

I was sort of almost looking in the air, thinking,

"This won't last very long."

And then when you gave me these five books and I opened them up

and I saw my children's names in it,

my brain disengaged and my heart went to mush.

That happens to a lot of people who get the books.

Our success has been a lot of word of mouth,

and the feedback we get from Facebook and Twitter and bloggers

is just overwhelming.

The kids adore it, the parents adore reading it to the kids and it's...

Yeah, word of mouth has been phenomenal for us.

-It's quite...

-It's intriguing.

Hi, there. I'm Kelly.

I think it's a really lovely idea. What does it cost?

-Each one is exactly the same?

-The book?

-Each book, yeah.

For the customer?

Yeah, because if you have a longer name it's going to be more pages.

Yeah, we're not going to punish people for getting longer...

Well, kids for getting longer names or shorter names.

-So the book costs exactly the same for everyone.

-Which is?

-Which is 18.99.

-18? OK.

-18.99.

What's your turnover to date?

We turned over £460,000 to date.

-£460,000 to date?

-Yeah.

-Just selling those books.

-Six months. Yes.

-Wow.

I just can't believe you can make that much money out of one book.

An impressive business.

So much so that Asi and David

have already bagged substantial investment -

£250,000 from a venture capitalist.

But that creates a problem.

It leaves little room for the Dragons to negotiate on equity.

Peter Jones wants to explore this investment conundrum.

-You did say 4%, didn't you?

-Yeah.

Which was almost terrifying.

So you've obviously seen Dragons' Den on television, have you?

-BOTH: Yeah.

-And watched it?

I like to think that one of the big things about what we do here

is that we're investors on one side

but at the same time we do like to negotiate quite hard.

-You realise that?

-Yep.

-Yep.

We also like to... If we like the idea,

and we want to put our money up,

we quite like to get as much share of that business,

and it's not suggesting for one minute we could possibly be greedy,

however, we do like to get the best deal possible.

So my question to you is,

if you have a venture capitalist

that's invested a quarter of a million pounds at 10%,

I clearly understand why you're pitching for £100,000 at 4%,

but would you be able to negotiate a higher percentage share than 4%,

and how would the VC feel?

I'm afraid that the valuation is fixed.

We've raised most of the fund.

We cannot really negotiate the equity.

Hmm.

A dogged attempt by Peter Jones

to see if the entrepreneurs will budge on the 4% share on offer

has come to nothing.

Kelly Hoppen has made up her mind.

If you had been able to move on the percentage

I would have invested in this today,

because it's right up my street

and I know I could have brought something to the table

with you guys and what you're doing.

You know, I'm going to watch out for you

and I wish you luck,

but, unfortunately, I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you very much.

Guys, I'm going to tell you where I am.

Erm, I think it's lovely,

I think the illustrations are lovely.

I actually think it's expensive

for a softback book.

I'd be really pleased with the book,

then I'd feel a bit, oh, maybe it doesn't feel

quite as substantial for £20.

And at 4%, I'm not therefore terribly engaged or excited by it.

I can tell you really quickly

I won't be investing, so I'm out.

Guys...

It's a really big ask

to make a decision on a non-negotiable basis,

whether, however good the idea is,

to invest £100,000 for 4%.

It will be interesting to see in five years' time

whether £100,000 for 4%

could have got a return.

But it's just too rich for me to make that jump.

I'm going to say that I'm out, but wish you the best of luck.

Thank you very much.

A further blow for the publishing innovators.

Only Duncan Bannatyne and Piers Linney remain.

Will their early enthusiasm

for the money-making potential of these books

overcome Asi and David's fixed share structure?

What do you want from a Dragon, apart from £100,000 for 4%?

What do you think a Dragon can add?

Erm...

Expertise.

Well, I think that it's going to be two key things.

A, opening doors.

Again, just cut the time that it will take me

to go into Selfridges and John Lewis and all the major retailers.

Can't your venture capitalist do that?

Erm... To a degree,

but I'm sure that, you know,

you guys can probably do the same, only quicker.

Erm... And equally...

the PR element

of having one of you guys on...

So what's that worth?

HE SIGHS

-So what's that worth?

-Let me just finish this a minute.

-Honestly...

-Piers, let me just finish this a minute.

-Duncan...

I'll come back to you in a minute.

So you said opening doors, didn't you, into the shops?

I just don't see how your venture capitalists can't do that.

And if they can't,

and you're therefore getting an extra benefit from a Dragon,

why aren't you offering us a better deal?

Erm...

HE SIGHS

We're just not in a position to do it right now.

You see, that's one of the problems.

You've got a venture-capitalist investor already

and he's now stopping you doing something that you would've done

before you took his investment.

That's one of the problems

when you get people like that investing in you.

Erm, I think it just complicates it so much.

I think, you know, this is a great book

and I wish you the very, very best of luck with it,

but it's not an investment for me,

not at 4% for £100,000.

I'm going to have to say good luck but I'm out.

Thank you.

Piers Linney is the only Dragon still in the game.

Could his strong background in finance and in technology

help him find a way through this deadlock?

I'm still getting my head around the business.

You've got a VC, a venture capitalist interested.

So if you've got other investors, the private individuals,

what kind of terms are they getting?

They are getting ordinary shares like us.

-So what's the VC getting that isn't ordinary shares?

-Preferred shares.

Cos you've come in with a structure,

and no matter how creative I try and be now,

I'm going to struggle to work around that structure.

Be creative and put an offer in.

Did you think, is there anyway possible

you could go back to the VCs

and say to them...

"A Dragon will invest if you also take ordinary shares."

Or are they hung up on their preference?

Erm...

I don't have the answer for that.

The other question is,

would you guys entertain a slightly lower valuation,

say a 5% investment equity, rather than 4%.

Would you take that on board and accept that?

Erm...

We will be happy to consider another 1%

if you are coming on our advisory board

and bringing the value,

bringing the attention that we need.

I'll make you an offer.

5%, all the money, 100 grand,

but all your investors on this round

take ordinary shares

and the terms I get are no different to the VCs.

Obviously I wouldn't be able to answer that question right now.

If you don't think you can deliver that, there's no point in wasting my time.

If you think you can, there's a potential, and you're interested,

then maybe there's a deal.

We definitely want to explore that option.

Listen, are you going to take away the offer I made or not?

You don't look quite as convinced...

Piers, you know they cannot agree to change the terms with the...

-But you know they can't.

-He don't look as convinced.

-You know...

-Hey, I'm the writer here.

-You're out.

-Yeah, but I don't...

-You've got to do something that precludes...

-Deborah, you're out.

Yeah, but this isn't fair.

They cannot possibly agree to change the terms...

Well, let me conclude.

Cos are you interested? You don't look as keen.

-If you're not, there's no point in taking it away.

-It's not that.

I'm the writer, so when it comes to

talking about this sort of complexity, I'm just not...

So are you going to take that away?

I accept your offer,

subject to our other shareholders agreeing to the deal.

Great.

Well done, guys.

After some shrewd negotiating -

with some spiky input from a fellow Dragon -

Piers Linney makes Den history,

exchanging such a large amount of cash

for the smallest ever stake in a business.

Bit of an odd one,

because they can't possibly agree for their VCs...

-You can't do it.

-But they might do it.

But the entrepreneurs are more optimistic.

Interesting.

It would be amazing to have Piers on board.

I want to believe that we can work it out with the other shareholders

and actually seal that deal.

Well, I am happy to report that Asi and David's other investors

did accept Piers Linney's conditions

and the deal has gone through.

That's it from the Den, but if you want to join the conversation

about tonight's pitches,

you can do so on Twitter,

using the hashtag #dragonsden.

Next time in the Den...

Oh, my God.

Sorry! Just technical problems with the lift.

How much money have you spent on getting it to this point now?

About £90,000.

-And it's three years of your life.

-Yeah.

-Why?

Looks like you're hiding your wife in a suit carrier.

-Yeah. Or part of her.

-It does look a bit random!

I just want to ask Peter a question.

Sorry, before he does, can I have some more drink?

If this is going where I think it's going, I'm getting pissed.