Episode 4 Dragons' Den

'You're deluded in your approach.'

'It doesn't matter what the business is, it's my return that matters.'

-'I would want 40%.'

-'Would you invest in it?'

-'I'm irritated.'

-'I'm out.'

These are the Dragons.

Wealthy, well connected, innovative and influential.

Each week, they make or break the

dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

In the den, leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...

..telecoms giant Peter Jones...

..hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne...

..founder of her own global interior design brand Kelly Hoppen,

and cloud computing expert and former city financier Piers Linney.

With thousands to lose but millions to gain,

the Dragons are prepared to fight for that next shrewd investment.

In the last decade,

over 900 entrepreneurs have faced the Dragons

and investment offers of £14.5m have been made in this room.

To face them takes nerve and vision.

So, who will leave with the Dragon's money?

Welcome to the Dragons' Den.

More entrepreneurs are here with

their dreams of business success,

and the stakes couldn't be higher.

Succeed and they leave with the backing of a Dragon investor,

fail and they leave with nothing.

Coming up on tonight's show...

Dave, you just look worn out.

I went on a heavy stag do at the weekend.

I'm over 65 and I don't use a walking stick.

No.

You're basically a sales agent.

Yes.

For an investor, that is massive, massive risk.

The thing is, I'm crazy about marshmallows,

but these taste a bit stale.

I'm going to make you a higher offer.

First into the den are Yorkshire couple Richard and Lynn Bye.

They believe that the growing number of middle-aged men swapping

four wheels for two presents a lucrative commercial opportunity.

What do I let you talk me into?

It'll be fine.

Will the Dragons buy into their plans to peddle a range

of cycle wear designed to flatter the fuller figure?

- Hello, Dragons, my name's Lynn.

- And I'm Richard.

- And we're from Fat Lad At The Back.

- And we're here to ask for £80,000 investment for 10% of our company.

Fat Lad At The Back is a new sportswear brand

aimed at providing the larger framed sportsman with kit that actually

fits them as opposed to making them look like a shrink-wrapped chicken.

I've always struggled to find sports clothing to fit me,

being a MAMIL, otherwise known as a "middle-aged man in Lycra",

and I've never really been able to find anything that didn't

make me look terrible.

What is it called?

BOTH: Fat Lad At The Back.

Nice.

Erm... Er, where did we get to? So, erm...

We launched on the fourth of October last year

and since then we've really had a fantastic ride.

We've massed just short of 3,000 followers on Facebook.

We've turned over £48,000 in that time.

We've had a gross profit of about £24,000.

- We knew that the brand was strong,

but even we've been overwhelmed at how passionately people have

adopted it and how inspirational it's been to people.

We think we're in a great position at the moment

because we've clearly found a gap in the market.

We just need some help from, maybe some Dragons,

to help us fill the gap in the market with FLAB.

- FLAB being the acronym of Fat Lad At the Back.

A pitch with a healthy dose of irony from Richard and Lynn Bye,

who are seeking £80,000 in return for a 10% stake

in their sportswear range for the plus-sized cyclist.

But before the Dragons can interrogate the business,

Duncan Bannatyne has a few thoughts

about their brand to get off his chest.

When you name your product Fat Lad At The Back,

that's the only customer you're going to get.

You're not going to get...

It's not... That's not necessarily true.

You don't have to be fat to be a fat lad at the back,

do you know what I mean? It's more of a...

No, I don't know what you mean.

If it says, "Fat Lad At The Back", I don't know...

If you're out cycling, there's always somebody that is at the back.

Yeah, but why do you call him a fat lad?

No, they're not always fat.

ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER

What if it's me at the back, and I'm not a fat lad, I just happen

to be the oldest person there, and I can't get up the hill any faster?

So you're the old fat lad at the back.

-Exactly. Thank you, Peter.

-I'm not a fat lad.

No, but you are, metaphorically speaking.

Now, I completely understand, it's a turn of phrase, isn't it?

It doesn't matter, it could be the skinniest person in that group.

-You could say, "Oh, he's the fat lad at the back."

-Yeah.

But I do have a problem with the brand because,

unfortunately, it is a little bit too closely

descriptive of the person that you want to attract.

You want to bring out, then, a female range.

-Would you wear Fat Girl At The Back?

-Lass.

-That's my point.

Fat Lass At The Back.

-What did you say?

-Fat Lass At The Back.

Fat Lass At The Back? Are you serious? Is that really...?

-And a children's range, Fat Kid At The Back?

-No.

I don't think you could do the kids, could you?

Guys, I'm going to be really quick

and they can interrupt as much as they like.

My point is, I get all of the bits you're talking about,

so don't think I misunderstand it,

but unfortunately that isn't going to help you.

I get it, but I still worry about it, so...

Just before you declare yourself out, just to say one thing,

and that's that at the moment the initial range to get the brand

out there is emblazoned with Fat Lad At The Back,

but we do have a plan to bring out a more subtle range for those

people who don't want the Fat Lad At The Back.

But, guys, I've also been in the fashion industry and it's hard,

it's tough, and you need to get as much market as you can,

not box yourself into a quite tight group of people

who are going to get it, who think it's funny.

I'm afraid I won't be investing, so I've got to say I'm out.

Thank you.

Fat chance then, of a fashion industry savvy Deborah Meaden

seeing fit to offer Richard and Lynn a deal.

Will keen cyclist Piers Linney show any more enthusiasm?

Where do we start on this one?

-I'm a MAMIL and I have been the FLAB.

-Yes.

-Fundamentally, it's a very competitive market.

-Mm-hmm.

Why are you different, apart from the sizing?

- Yeah, well, the brand. - Can I answer?

- Yeah. - So basically, I'm not a cyclist,

so I've come at this from a different angle.

I dress Richard in a normal day-to-day fashion because I'm

really interested in fashion and styling and things like that,

so we've changed the shape of the garment itself.

We started with a 44-inch chest and we've made the garment look good

on that size of person, then we've tailored that up,

and we've tailored that down.

So we've come at it from a completely different place

to most cycle wear companies.

You're presentation, for me, is so flawed.

Most people don't want to think they're becoming middle-aged

or that they're overweight, they don't want that pointed out to them.

-OK.

-I don't get the positive out of it.

I think when all people go back to the gym or go cycling or do

all of those things, they want to feel like they fit in.

But how are they going to feel like that

if you've got Fat Lad At The Back, do you know what I mean?

I understand what you're saying.

Sometimes it's easier for somebody to take the mickey out of themselves

and go, "I know I'm going to be the fat lad at the back..."

Possibly some, but not everybody.

I'm looking at your models, they've got a pot belly,

so therefore it just means that it's got to be bigger.

I mean, if you're fatter, you buy bigger clothes.

You do, but up to date,

there's not been anything available for people that are...

I don't believe that for one minute.

I know lots of people that are overweight that do sport,

their shirts are not up here, they're just bigger shirts.

Top quality cycle wear tends to be based on the old-fashioned

typical cyclist, which is a 36 to 38-inch chest,

but the middle-aged man in Lycra has changed that.

Kelly, may be, rightly, getting hung up on the brand.

If you put the brand to one side for a moment,

there are more and more middle aged men and women, actually,

riding bikes that don't look good in very technical Lycra.

So what happens when everybody else says,

"Oh, look, they're selling lots of those tops for bigger guys?

"We'll make ours slightly bigger and we'll change the shape slightly."

Yeah, and they will.

But then you're done.

We were with the third largest cycle wear

and online cycle company last week, and their comment was,

"We're definitely going to stock you

"because you're the best people to solve the problem."

I think you could do better on the design.

If you're going to do something

which is really going to make a mark...

We're doing the best we can and have up until now,

in terms of design, but we are only six months old.

Despite intense scrutiny,

Richard and Lynn's belief in their brand is unwavering...

..but will that be enough to convince a sceptical Peter Jones?

I would be, definitely... Look at me, the fat lad at the back...

but I'm not so sure I'd want to be

the fat lad at the back when I walk in to the pub.

I don't see it as a mainstream opportunity, a mainstream brand.

That being said, I do think you'll sell some

because I do think it is quirky

and people like quirkiness, but I don't see it as an investment,

and I'm going to say I'm out.

The initial concept to this is great,

that you're doing something like this.

I just think the actual Fat Lad At The Back

descriptive title or brand is wrong.

So for that reason, I'm out.

I can imagine you sat round a table one night and everyone's like,

"Oh, I'm overweight,

"I'd like to go off and cycle, but I can never get the clothes."

You created this brand and it was funny at the time, but morally

I don't like it because I know people struggle with their weight.

I would say that what the brand has done for a lot of people

and a lot of the feedback that we've got is that people wear it

and they feel empowered by it, and it gives them almost permission...

I wish you well with it and I hope it works for you,

but I'm not going to invest in you,

so I'm afraid that I'm out. But good luck with it.

Four Dragons have now turned down a deal.

As the only Dragon who's grasped their fat lad logic,

all hopes of investment now lie with Piers Linney.

There is a market, but the question is -

how big is it and is your brand right for it? Because...

I don't know.

What you try to do by exercising is not be the fat lad at the back.

You've got to be try and be the skinny mate at the front.

I don't think you're going to create enough traction,

enough people out there are going to buy this stuff, so I'm out.

So Richard and Lynn leave the den empty handed,

convincing the Dragons to give them

a financial push having ultimately proved an uphill struggle.

- They just didn't get it. - Well, you know...

It's... Yeah.

The brand is too word heavy.

It'd be like a hat company, calling it Bald Headed Old Men.

I am the original fat lad at the back.

I've always been called the fat lad at the back.

We've got now 1,100 fat lads out there riding in our stuff

within six months and that is... I think that's pretty good.

Next in the den is former sales and marketing consultant Tracy Baker.

She's looking for investment in her business,

distributing a revolutionary new peel-and-stick product,

which is designed for the home and office.

Hello, Dragons, my name's Tracy Baker.

I'm here as the director of Nanotech Laboratories Ltd.

I'm here to ask you for an investment of £60,000

for an equity share of my business of 25%.

About 12 months ago, I was in America and I came across what I thought

was a really innovative and exciting new product range.

That was called Um Brands, and it's these products

that I can display here on this fridge.

There are hooks, clips, notepads, photo frames, mirrors.

With these products, they use a new technology called nano-suction -

it's a type of nanotechnology.

And if I can just show you, on the back...

..of each of these products, there are millions

and millions of tiny rubber suction cups

that create a very powerful suction.

The suction is so strong...

..that the hooks, for example,..

can carry 5kg of weight.

-Watch your toes.

-No, I trust it quite well. It's OK.

I was so impressed with the technology when I saw them

that I did some research into the company

and I was quite amazed to find out that they were stocked across

North America, but there was no sale

or distribution to the rest of the world.

So I contacted the company and I asked them

for the exclusive distribution rights for the UK and Europe -

I obtained that back in last summer.

Since then I have had one large UK retailer, Wilkinson's,

and they are already stocking five of the products in 370 stores.

I'm here today because I want some, I guess,

help in terms of reaching more retailers in the UK

and Europe and also getting investment of £60,000 for immediate

need of stock, point of sale display and an e-commerce website.

Thank you, and I invite any questions.

A pitch perfect presentation from

this Buckinghamshire-based entrepreneur.

Tracy is looking for £60,000 for 25% of her distribution company.

Piers Linney is first to scrutinise the miracle material.

I suppose the natural reaction with these things

is to see if you can see them, so I guess you can't.

Nanotechnology, you probably know all about nanotechnology, but it's

so small... I think it's a hundred 1,000th the width of a human hair,

or a billionth of a metre, it's just so small.

When I've been in trade fairs, I've had people say to me,

"This would be amazing in boats and caravans,

"this would be perfect for students

"who cant use hooks or drill holes into their walls."

They're just blown away because there's no real competition

out there for anything like this.

Tell me about the Wilkinson order, then.

Well, we've had three orders up to date.

The first order was for about 10,000 units, just over.

What's that in monetary terms?

In terms of sales, for us as a company,

just over £18,000.

And the second order?

The second order was a smaller order for a two-week buffer stock,

and that was only for just under 4,000 units.

And we've just had a third order, last week,

for a following 20,000 units.

We're looking at a gross profit this year of £70,000.

Hmm.

Applying her sales skills to the maximum,

Tracy's proving unflappable.

But are things about to get sticky over the issue of her

contractual deal with the American supplier?

How would you properly and legally describe

your relationship with this company?

A licence agreement, a distribution agreement,

what is the piece of paper that says,

"This is how we're going to trade together"?

-A distribution agreement.

-It's a distribution agreement?

-Yes.

-Did you pay for the exclusive distribution rights?

-No.

So you just got a contract signed.

Is there a minimum spend per year or anything for you to keep that?

No, not at all. The initial contract was for a six-month period,

which was to be continued with a termination period of three months.

We discussed a renewal of that contract very recently

and it was agreed that the exclusivity element

of the contract would be continued as long as I'm able

to secure more retailers and larger retailers across the UK and Europe.

-Have you got the contract with you?

-I do have it today, yes.

-Can you show it to me?

-Of course, yeah.

Thank you.

-You're basically a sales agent.

-I basically am a distributor, yes.

HE SIGHS

So what makes you think that the business

is worth a couple of £100,000?

Because, first of all, it's already been successful in the US.

I've got the exclusive distribution rights,

so there's nobody else distributing.

I'm sorry, I thought you said you did have,

but you kind of haven't now because your contract is out.

It's got a termination period of three months.

So I could invest £60,000, we could try and get it in the retailers,

it doesn't take off...

I've just wasted my money.

Well, I do have written confirmation form the company

that so long as I do maintain even just one large retailer,

then they will keep renewing the exclusivity.

But you don't need me to get that, you're already in Wilkinson's.

You're in 370 outlets - that's a lot.

From last week, though.

It's just been, erm, started stocking from last week.

And obviously, from my perspective,

I see this growing exponentially once it's out there in the market.

Lots of people will know all about it and they might even start calling me.

But it's an opportunity, I thought,

to come on here and see if you'd like to be involved.

The best thing, for you to have been able to walk in here

and get investment, would be to say,

"I've got a contract, I've got it for this period of time."

Which you have kind of said, but it's three months' notice,

it's not very secure, makes you almost impossible to

invest in today because you haven't brought somebody from that

company here to represent you that can commit.

So if I commit £60,000,

I've no idea whether I'm going to not just see the money,

but whether we're even going to have a contract in three months.

So for an investor, that is massive, massive risk.

I can't invest in something like that,

so I'm going to tell you, Tracy, I'm out.

A disastrous turn of events, as Peter Jones pulls no punches over

the agreement that Tracy's brokered.

And Deborah Meaden's discovered even more devil in the detail.

There's not good news in the contract

and it goes back to what Peter says.

Unfortunately...

..this is really not nice.

"I, the party, may terminate this agreement following the

"six-month trial period", which you've already done.

"Or without cause."

Without cause, for any reason whatsoever,

"Don't want to do this any more,

"found somebody else who can sell it more, upon 90 days written notice."

Which means that, at any point...

there's nothing in the way this agreement is drawn up

that gives you any safety to say,

"Well, yeah, but hold on a minute.

"I bring on £500,000 worth of business, I get it. "

So the structure of the agreement is very, very unhelpful.

It's almost worse than not having an agreement.

With the den rattled by the contract's fine print,

will more Dragons follow in Peter Jones' footsteps,

or will Tracy's encouraging sales keep them on side?

Don't you wish you'd invented this?

Of course, and do you know what, Kelly?

I intend to look for other products that we can also distribute.

But, for me, it's not just about distribution -

it's about bringing new products as well.

For me, as a Dragon, coming in,

obviously I look for a good investment.

But coming from a design background,

I was thinking of different products cos it's an incredible substance.

But to invest in something that doesn't, for me, have a future,

I can't see how we could take it anywhere else,

other than investing in you as a distributor.

It's not very exciting.

Essentially, what I would be doing is just helping you find people

who are going to buy the product,

and that's not really why I'm in the den.

I want something that's got some creativity in it

as well as the business side.

So, for that reason, I'm not investing,

but I wish you well with it. So I'm out.

Tracy, if I could give you one piece of advice, it is, "Sort this out."

But, because of that, really,

-it's not something I can invest in, so I'm afraid I'm out.

-OK.

Three Dragons have now declared themselves out.

Tracy's hopes of investment rest with Deborah Meaden

or Duncan Bannatyne.

-Tracy...

-Yes, Duncan.

How confident are that, with a Dragon on board,

you could get a new contract?

Categorically, 100% confident.

I deal only with the marketing director.

She recognises the fact that I've had a huge amount of passion

to do this in the first place.

I've invested about £65,000 of my own money into

doing this in the last six months.

65,000?

I have, yep. And I think she recognises that.

And I really, truly believe we can do that.

-OK. Well, I'm going to make you an offer then.

-OK.

I'm going to offer you the full amount, £60,000, for...

For 35% of the company.

OK, thank you.

I like the products and have had a great deal of success with

a stick-on, office-style product.

And, actually, I see some synergies between the two businesses

and, quite obviously, some of the customers are going to be the same

and we're in the big shed.

So, what I can see there is some expertise within

that organisation, which has now grown exponentially.

I can see them being a customer of this.

I can see them being able to make introductions.

The biggest conundrum is that agreement.

However, the other organisation I'm talking about also operates

under a licence agreement,

so we have an absolute model of something,

and we have to sort that out too.

I am going to make you an offer, but it is going to have that caveat.

The very first thing you do before I hand any money over

-is to get that.

-Yeah.

So I'm going to make you an offer

and I'm going to offer you all of the money,

but I want 40% of the business.

OK, thank you.

Duncan, is there something you can tell me,

a little bit more, so I can compare the two of you?

Tracy, I've been in business a long time. I know how these things work.

Obviously, the first thing I'm going to do

is get the contract renegotiated,

and we're going to market the product, it's a simple as that.

There's nothing else to it.

So, a remarkable U-turn in the den.

The entrepreneur now has two offers on the table,

but can Deborah Meaden turn from arch prosecutor to a deal poacher?

It's very difficult to decide.

Is it?

I think in my heart of hearts, my initial reaction is that,

Duncan, you were behind me just from a gut feeling.

And I guess, on that side of things,

despite Deborah, you'd be, I guess, amazing to work with,

and I understand you've got a lot of connections,

-I think I'll go with Duncan.

-Thank you very much.

DRAGONS APPLAUD

Thank you very much indeed.

After an early mauling by Peter Jones,

Tracy leaves the den bruised but smiling

at the £60,000 that eventually came her way.

Deborah, you will just not stop trying to pinch deals, eh?

-Well, it would've been a very good synergy.

-Every deal that comes up...

To be fair, I offered 5% more than you. I'm hardly stealing a deal.

I was really 50-50. I think Deborah was really convincing.

She obviously had a lot of contacts in the right areas,

and she seemed very honest and clear about what she could and couldn't do.

Duncan offered me first, and he took the leap of faith,

and I felt that he deserved to have the deal.

-It doesn't work.

-It's your problem.

You're not selling them.

-Why are you doing this?'

-I'm out.'

Also hoping for investment were inventors Jordan Schlipf

and Andrew Tan, who came into the den looking for £50,000

for a 10% stake in their business.

Meet the Morella, a novel remedy for a 21st century problem.

Yes, it's a drinks holder for an umbrella.

So, why? Well, it's because of this -

the proliferation of the smartphone.

Today, we are addicted to our phones.

We're constantly taking photos, videos,

updating our social media, messaging, e-mailing and taking phone calls.

The really interesting and unique feature

of Morella's patented design is that,

when it does stop raining, you can be left attached to the umbrella,

turning it into a drinks holder and stand.

From Glastonbury to Glyndebourne,

the men behind Morella saw no end of potential sales opportunities,

but Peter Jones was unconvinced.

Do you honestly think it's a viable product?

The idea, I know it can be a bit of a Marmite thing,

but we've had a number of experiences now,

when we go out, we've taken it down to Kempton races,

and generally, it sparks people's imagination if nothing else.

You mentioned about at the races.

I mean, to be fair, you'd look a bit of a plonker, wouldn't you?

I agree, there is something about it that's a little bit

outside of the norm, but the genuine reaction that we've always

had from people has been one of affection towards it.

The look of their product may divide opinion,

but Deborah Meaden was concerned less with design

and more by simple mathematics.

The problem is you have got to sell a lot to make any

kind of return on an investment.

We had a conversation with one of the more prominent

coffee chains in the world.

So, they have 20,000 stores worldwide.

You can't just say there's that many coffee shops in the world.

Have they said to you, "We would buy half a million of them"?

You get there and it's that sort of,

"OK, so we're going to be the first out of the gates,

"so let's try 100, 300, 400 units,

"see how it goes, we'll build from there."

Morella's inventors were predicting steady but unspectacular growth.

No surprise then, that Piers Linney felt

they'd overvalued their business.

You've got an idea, prototype,

that's it, that's as far as you've got, and you want £50,000 for 10%.

If you'd come in here and asked for less money,

I might have just done it as a whim,

but it's not something that excites me particularly

and therefore it's not something that I want to invest in.

Sadly, for Jordan and Andrew, all of the Dragons agreed -

better to save for a rainy day than splash out on a business

that simply didn't hold water.

All I can say is, it's completely an utterly ridiculous

-and ludicrous, and I'm out.

-OK.

Thank you. Good luck with it.

It is raining.

It is. We thought it was a sign. LAUGHTER

Don't worry about it.

-I want one, though.

-I know you do.

-So far tonight...

-What do I let you talk me into?

..two entrepreneurs were berated for their brand name.

- We thought they'd love it.

- We expected them to be fighting amongst themselves.

And, in fact, they were fighting

amongst themselves, for different reasons.

-Would you wear Fat Girl At The Back?

-That's my point.

And one business got the Dragons' seal of approval.

Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

Will any of these cash hungry hopefuls also have the

winning formula for investment?

You're going to be knocking over vases, hitting grandma on the head.

The thing is, I'm crazy about marshmallows,

but...these taste a bit stale.

Now, the toy business is a bit like a lottery.

If you can create a craze,

well, then you've got yourself a winning ticket.

But most, of course, never get very far.

Our next entrepreneurs are hoping their toy can hit the jackpot.

Hi, Dragons. My name's David, and this is Phil...

- Hi.

- ..and we're here to pitch for a £60,000 investment

in return for a 25% stake in our business, Ukick Ltd.

Ukick's a fun new social and healthy sporting craze.

It fuses elements of badminton, and street football,

and the aim of the game is to kick the Ukick in the air, using your feet

or any other part of your body, and prevent it from touching the ground.

- Ukick consists of four brightly coloured feathers

inserted into a brightly coloured rubber base.

As David is demonstrating, you can take the feathers out of the base,

so kids can trade feathers with each other

to create their own unique designs.

You can add or remove the weights to change the way that the Ukick

flies through the air, giving you more reaction time.

- From the onset, our mission has been to focus on three major things.

Number one is getting kids, and big kids, active.

The second thing is getting people and bringing them

together in a social environment.

And the third main thing is, basically,

adding a bit more fun into the world.

- To date, we've sold around 45,000 Ukicks.

We have a distributor who's ready to go,

not just nationally, but also internationally.

All that's missing from the equation is a Dragon to join us on board,

and come and turn this into the craze that we've always wanted it to be.

- We welcome you to come up and play with us,

if you fancy, and then we can take any questions that you like.

-Can I have a go?

-Of course you can.

-I've got heels on.

-Anyone else? Duncan, you look tempted.

-I'll have a go, yeah.

It's all about timing, really, more than power.

That's it. That's it.

Two hits.

An upbeat pitch from David Robinson and Phil Law, who are seeking

£60,000 in return for a 25% stake in their toy business.

Having honed his keepy-uppy skills,

Duncan Bannatyne kicks off the interrogation.

That was fun.

What's the retail price on it?

Recommended retail price is £7.99.

-Are those the displays of what you actually sell?

-Yeah.

-Can you pass them round?

-Yeah, of course.

David will pass around those, they are a little bit scratched.

Have you got one there? I'll pass it to Kelly in a second.

So what does it cost you to produce them?

So, to manufacture the whole thing, it's 70p.

-You can get these delivered for 70 pence?

-Yeah.

There's a container on the way over now,

which has got around about 18,000 Ukicks on it.

Who's paying for this?

The order's been paid for, 50% deposit,

by the distributor, he has committed.

If you've got someone else paying for your product...

selling it on your behalf, distributing it,

why do you need any money?

To launch this product successfully, we need to turn this into a craze,

not just trickle forwards and grow steadily.

It really needs to hit the market and explode.

Why is it going to be a craze?

We've taken it to a lot of schools.

We really have put in a lot of groundwork here.

The kids go bananas over it.

For whatever reason, they just seem to love it.

We were doing a session and they literally attacked me

because I had a Ukick. They were running after me.

They wanted a different coloured feather, for example.

How did you get to this point? How do you know each other?

Well, I was made redundant twice in the last recession.

It was a really tough time, which is why I started Ukick up.

It's been such a roller coaster ride, I can't even tell you.

And I've been living off literally below minimum wage for so long,

and I don't want to slip up now because this is about to take off.

David, you just look worn out.

I don't know if you were up all night making these or not, but...

You just look like you've had a...

OK, so I...

So, I went on a heavy stag do at the weekend.

THEY LAUGH

I thought you were going to say, "It's the business."

Oh, it is. Because I was dealing with China as well, I just work 24-7.

Isn't this a case of, get it out there, create a craze,

and then get out of Dodge?

That's exactly why we need to hit it so hard.

But what are you going to move on to?

We're going to have a Ukick-o-meter,

-which we could show you a prototype of.

-What was that?

- A Ukick-o-meter. Do you want to...? - These are only mock-ups.

- You have to maybe use your imagination.

The idea would be, and it obviously wouldn't look exactly like this,

but as you kick, it would count how many you've done.

We've also got a really nice idea, this is pulse technology.

So when you kick it, it will pulse a colour.

These are just random designs so, again,

we could introduce different colours there.

I think it's got legs, this thing.

Dave and Phil may have convinced Kelly Hoppen that there

product is no one-hit wonder, but Duncan Bannatyne is concerned

the men behind Ukick are trying to run before they can walk.

I'm not sure you want to be...

..creating accessories until you have proven the fact that this sells.

So what's your projections, going forward, then?

We are looking to do, globally, from the end of June when they land

to the next June, roughly 850,000 units.

One unit, what are you going to make?

One unit, up to 100,000, about 19p, 18p.

I think that you'll make a little bit of money, but I think that

you'll be surprised at how little that you'll ultimately sell.

The big issue with this is the fact that this is a game that

I think every parent will turn round and say, "Put that thing outside."

You're going to be knocking over vases,

you're going to be hitting grandma on the head.

But if you reduce the weights,

then obviously it's not going to cause as much damage inside.

It's just not something that I'm going to get behind, guys.

So I'm going to wish you well on your way.

I'm going to say that I'm out.

Disappointment for the young entrepreneurs,

as Peter Jones turns his back on the deal.

Will Deborah Meaden see the business potential in this playground craze?

Did you do this design?

-Yeah, this is all...

-And the photography?

-The photographer's a friend of mine.

-I think they look really good.

-It really is strong.

-Thanks a lot.

Who designed this?

-See, that doesn't look like that.

-No, we agree.

That is actually a very recent development on the brand.

At the time we did that, we didn't have any photographs at all,

apart ones on iPhones, which just isn't suitable for packaging.

You're good guys, you've certainly done a great job on producing it,

but when I sit here, I have to see a path.

I have to think, "Right, we can do that with it."

I've been sitting quietly, looking for it, I just have no empathy

-and sometimes that's my reason to not want to invest.

-Sure.

So I'm really sorry, I won't be investing.

-Thanks very much.

-I'm out.

Praise for Dave and Phil, but no passion to invest.

Now, Duncan Bannatyne, who initially said

he enjoyed playing with the product, is ready to have his say.

Those sort of margins,

you'd have to sell an awful, awful lot to recoup,

first of all my £60,000,

and then make a profit.

So, I wish you the best of luck with it,

but I'm not going to invest, so I'm out.

When you came in, I just thought...

it's a craze, it'll come and go very quickly.

And then you sort of talked through the vision,

and I kind of thought, "Maybe not."

But now I've gone back to, "Yes, it is".

It's not a sustainable business, so I can't invest in it, unfortunately.

I'm out.

Four Dragons out in rapid succession.

Dave and Phil's hopes of securing the £60,000 they were seeking

now rest solely with Kelly Hoppen.

Guys, you're good,

you're really good, and I think you've done a fantastic job here.

But it's very hard to get into this market,

and also, this is something that can be copied so easily.

I'm going to wish you well with it, I truly am,

but I'm afraid I'm not going to invest and I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Good luck.

-Thanks for your time. Cheers.

-Have a good day.

-Good luck.

Kelly Hoppen declines to make an offer,

and the entrepreneurs who've been living on minimum wage

while trying to establish their business leave

with their dreams of investment shattered.

- I thought we had her. - I did as well.

- Oh, we needed that.

- I thought we were going to do it. - Oh, well. Well done, mate.

Many entrepreneurs come into the den with business ideas

inspired by their own personal experiences.

I was a healthcare assistant for seven years.

I contracted a bacterial infection into my right hand.

I didn't like putting the stockings on,

so that's why I developed Neo-Slip.

Put your foot on to the door, and you walk though.

After many months of research, we designed the Dignity Giving Suit.

Denise Anstey's disability had led her to create a new

twist on the walking stick.

She was seeking £45,000 in return for a 35% stake in her business.

In 1998, I had a car accident and I was disabled for 12 years.

And during that time,

I designed and invented the Slik Stik walking stick.

It has a split-angled LED light system.

It also has red LEDs for crossing the road in the dark.

ALARM SOUNDS

A panic alarm button.

It's height adjustable and foldable,

and it's very, very lightweight.

Denise's stick boasted a broad range of features,

but Duncan Bannatyne wanted to establish

the size of her potential market.

How many people in the UK use walking sticks?

-How many?

-Yeah.

-Probably a million, two million people.

I don't think it's anywhere near that, actually.

10 million people are over 65 years.

Yeah, I'm over 65 and I don't use a walking stick.

-You don't look it, Duncan.

-Thank you, darling.

It's like a funfair on a stick, isn't it?

Or it's Pimp My Stick.

Pimp My Stick, well... It's very functional.

I think when you're disabled, you look at it in a different way.

We showed people and said, "What do you think?"

And they just absolutely loved it.

Positive feedback for Denise from potential buyers,

even if a doubtful Deborah Meaden was yet to see the light.

Just go and stand on the shadow, back there, behind the table.

That light doesn't hit the floor until way ahead of your feet.

Yeah, but by the time I get there, I'm always looking a step ahead.

-It's moved.

-You look ahead when you walk, you don't look down.

-Do you see what I mean?

-I'm sorry, but actually,

a very close member of my family walks with sticks

and the most important thing to them is this area here,

so that they don't trip.

It's to see a trip hazard before you get to it,

so by the time you've got there, you know what's ahead of you.

Denise was confident that her walking stick had

all the right tools for the job,

but Piers Linney was curious to discover what other ideas

she had for her product.

You had an experience, which was difficult.

Yes, I'm trying to move forward.

All these things you wanted and you needed,

-and you've sort of put them all in a walking stick.

-Mm-hmm.

You could put an umbrella in there,

you could put a credit card holder,

toaster... You could just keep going.

Well, no. There is obviously a limit.

We have obviously researched this really carefully,

so we know what people are after, what they like, so we've adapted it.

I think the only thing that you've said that I agree with is the alarm.

That's to alert for help.

Sometimes, something happens.

It's happened to me when I was mugged.

I thought I was screaming, but I actually wasn't,

so the alarm, I think, is brilliant.

Despite praise for it's in-built personal alarm...

..neither Kelly Hoppen nor any of her fellow Dragons

felt sufficiently moved by Denise's souped-up stick to invest.

Truly amazing woman, well done for everything that you've done,

but I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Good luck.

The food and drink keep flowing in the den,

as many entrepreneurs seem to think it's a sector

ripe for profit and innovation.

That's certainly the case with our next entrepreneur,

who has a new take on the traditional marshmallow.

Hi, I'm Harriet, and I'm the founder of Mallow and Marsh,

and I'm looking for £65,000 in return for 10%.

Mallow and Marsh is a gourmet marshmallow company.

We make handmade, 100% natural marshmallows

with no additives and no preservatives.

These are designed for the marshmallow lover

as a grab-and-go-style impulse purchase.

We have five flavours now. We've got roasted coconut, raspberry,

vanilla, peppermint and dark chocolate and cappuccino.

Last week, we actually launched into 40 local stores of a

national supermarket as part of a 12-month contract

that we're looking to roll out.

Would you like to try some? LAUGHTER

Love to try some.

A short-but-sweet pitch from Harriet Pleydell-Bouverie...

Roasted coconut, cappuccino.

..who's seeking £65,000 in return for a 10% share of her business.

But will Harriet's product be to the taste of design guru Kelly Hoppen?

The thing is, I'm crazy about marshmallows,

and I have a big jar in my kitchen,

and I go and buy the packets of the white and the pink,

and I take the pink out, because I only like the white.

It's rather sad, I know.

But...these taste a bit stale.

But I don't know if it's because a normal marshmallow is so soft...

These are much closer to the nougat side of things.

It is a marshmallow in terms of the recipe, and the design,

but it is very different.

Well, this is funny because I, literally, not a week ago,

was having a conversation about marshmallow. But, you know,

there always becomes the latest thing that everybody gets into.

I love them, but I've started to see them about.

But why marshmallows?

I've lived and breathed marshmallows for a very long time.

-It really was kind of a right time, right place moment.

-Good timing.

I think maybe my research was seeing that it was growing probably helped.

I go anywhere and I give them out. I've always got marshmallows on me,

and it's just so much fun seeing the reactions.

So what do they, for instance, that pack sell for?

The little ones are £2.50.

And what do they cost for you to make?

From a cost perspective, obviously, it's very sensitive

because I've got the contract that's there.

I can tell you that I sell them from between about £1.20 and £1.43,

and I make between 22% and 43% margin on that.

Well, anybody can out work out, so it would be much easier

-if you'd just tell me. What do they cost to make?

-83p.

-I don't know if you want to see the packets.

-I'd love to.

Yeah, I'd like to see one of your packets please, Harriet.

Harriet's gourmet marshmallows don't come cheap,

but Duncan Bannatyne is quick to seize on one area

where costs could be reduced.

The trouble with this is it's over-packaged

and that makes it so expensive.

I'm fully aware that it is something that needs addressing.

One of the reasons for that is it helps my shelf life,

which has got me into the supermarkets.

Mine have a six-month shelf life.

Most of them come in at four months if they're really working on it.

It's only a positive if the cost price comes down.

What does your business plan look like?

So, year one, I'm looking to turn over £220,000

with a £17,000 loss.

Year two is 560...

with a £80,000 profit.

And year three is 650,000 with 100,000 profit.

-That's a lot of marshmallows.

-That's a lot of marshmallows.

Have you factored in the craze factor?

There is a bit of a craze being talked about at the moment.

We've got some innovation in terms of new products,

so I'm in the middle of developing a spreadable version at the moment.

It is early stage.

But if everything goes to plan with that,

that would be ready to launch by the end of the year.

For now, I'm a marshmallow brand and that's what I'm focusing on

to get everything else off the ground.

I think you've done a really good job. I love the product, by the way.

I think it tastes absolutely delicious.

The thing that really strikes me is, as good as the pitch is,

I do think that you've incredibly overvalued your business.

You're predicting, in three years, £100k profit,

which would value your business around six or seven times earnings,

which I think is right. But you're offering me, today,

a price to invest in you, but you're giving me the rate

that you would be of where you see it could end up.

So, that's with zero money.

So if someone was to bring in the money,

I can see this turning over much closer to 1.3 in about...

So do you want to give me the figures if you receive £65,000,

what you're going to deliver, years one, two and three?

I don't think I know them.

A gap in Harriet's financial projections has been exposed,

marring her so far faultless pitch.

Will it deter Deborah Meaden from making her an offer?

I see many opportunities in the marshmallow market

and in this premium end of it,

but you are well overvalued.

But you're good.

So, I'm going to offer you all of the money...

..but I want 33 and a third. I want a third of the business,

to make sure that I'm engaged enough to work for you.

(Thank you.)

An early offer has given the other Dragons food for thought.

Do Kelly Hoppen, Piers Linney or Duncan Bannatyne

think there's money to be made in marshmallows?

I think this could be... This could do very well.

But you have an investment from a Dragon who already knows

a little bit about this industry.

I don't think I could improve on it much,

so for that reason, and that reason only, I'm out.

I think you're very sensible, very credible.

I just don't get the valuation of £650,000.

So, best of luck with it, but I'm out.

I think one of the biggest issues you've got is that,

as much as I think the product is great,

I thought it tasted a bit more like nougat,

which is kind of strange to me that you've gone down the

marshmallow route when it's actually more like something else.

I'm not going to make you an offer,

so I'm afraid I'm out.

Only Peter Jones is yet to declare his position.

With an impressive track record of taking new products

and turning them into supermarket staples,

will he see merit in adding Mallow and Marsh

to his investment portfolio?

Harriet, I do think that you're going to need

a little bit more money.

So...

I'm going to make you a higher offer.

I'm going to offer you £80,000, not the £65,000 you've asked for...

but for that I want 40%.

Thank you.

Can I take a moment? Thank you.

I really do believe in the product

and I really do believe in the valuation.

40% is too high for what I believe my business to be worth.

Levi Roots retained 60% of his business -

he's now clearly a multi-millionaire.

Sometimes it's not always about the percentage that you have,

it's about the partner that you get.

You're not prepared to shift on the equity side of things?

No, because I think you're going to end up needing more money.

And what I won't be doing is, when you do need more money, saying,

"I want another 20%."

I would say probably 90% of the investments that I'm still invested

in have had substantial sums of cash from me to develop the business.

Is there anything that you would be able to shift on,

in terms of your percentage?

What would you propose?

I would be...

I would be open to looking at 15%.

I will provide the expertise

and that's why I need enough in it to make that worth my while.

I have the money available to me

from an investor for roughly the 10% valuation.

And I came here today because

I genuinely think that you guys could bring more,

a lot more to the table, because I think that is a cheque, effectively.

But I do also believe in myself.

I respect your clarity,

but we are so far apart that it certainly knocks

my deal out of the window, which is, I think, a shame but, I understand.

I think you've eaten too many marshmallows

and the sugar's gone to your brain.

You've got to make it worth the while to get involved

and 15% it's... It's high risk.

Yeah, I totally understand.

So I'm going to wish you well on your way,

-but I'm not going to invest and I'm going to say I'm out.

-Thank you.

So, despite offers from two Dragons with the commercial clout

to supercharge her push to market, Harriet decided to go it alone.

A third of her business was ultimately too high a price to pay

to secure an investment.

In some ways, I'm gutted because I would've loved to have worked

with either of them and I think it could've been such a ride,

but I do believe it would've undervalued the business.

It's either going to be the biggest mistake I've ever made

or it's going to be one of the best decisions I've ever made.

That tends to be the way with every single decision I make.

It takes particular courage to turn down an offer from the Dragons.

You can't say no and then change your mind.

So it was a brave decision for Harriet to walk away with nothing,

but was it the right one?

Join the conversation about that,

and all of tonight's pitches, on Twitter,

using the hashtag "dragonsden".

Next time in the den...

Beautiful, aren't they?

The scale of your ambition at 18 is unbelievable.

It is a legally binding contract, but it is a framework agreement.

It's a legally binding contract that you are breaching at the moment.

You're now saying you want £100,000 for 33%.

That's what you're saying.

Are you making money or losing money?

Erm... I think...

-Oh, don't let go!

-LAUGHTER