Episode 5 Dragons' Den

These are the Dragons.

Wealthy, well-connected, innovative, and influential.

Each week, they make or break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

In the Den, leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden.

Telecoms giant Peter Jones.

Hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.

Founder of her own global interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen

and cloud computing expert and former city financier, Piers Linney.

With thousands to lose but millions to gain,

the Dragons are prepared to fight for that next shrewd investment.

In the last decade, over 900 entrepreneurs faced the Dragons and

investment offers of £14.5 million have been made in this room.

To face them takes nerve and vision,

so who will leave with the Dragons' money?

Welcome once again to Dragons' Den, the place where business gets done,

where entrepreneurs desperate for cash to build

their companies struggle to get it from five demanding investors.

Coming up on tonight's show...

-Wow!

-Oh, my God!

-That's a pull-out leg.

-If it comes off like that, it's dangerous.

-Beautiful, aren't they?

-Are you making money or losing money?

-Er...

I'd say...er...

Well, well, well. You look like two likely lads, don't you?

Thank you, I like that!

-How old are you?

-18.

-18?

-Yeah.

-You're extraordinary.

-Yeah.

You're now saying you want £100,000 for 33%?

-That's what YOU'RE saying.

-Oh, don't let go!

This has taken a turn I wasn't expecting it to take.

Our first entrepreneurs have imported their idea

from the North Pole.

They're tapping into a consumer demand for experiences,

buying anything from hot-air balloon rides to quad bike safaris.

In this case, it's husky dog racing,

brought to the banks of the river Avon.

-Hi. I'm Vicky.

-I'm Chantelle. This is Willow, who is one of the fastest dogs in the UK

and she's also a member of Team GB.

This is her team-mate Tamsin and together with 13 other furry friends, we are Arctic Quest Ltd.

We are here today to ask for £100,000 for a 20% stake in our company.

Arctic Quest offers husky rides in the UK.

We are unique in that we will teach you how to run your own team.

We offer rights to individuals, couples, groups,

corporate events, hen and stag dos, children's parties

and we also offer an educational programme into schools.

Guests can opt to stay overnight in our traditional accommodation.

These come with reindeer skins, wood burners

and everything for an Arctic adventure.

We are here today to ask you guys for an investment

to help us buy our own land.

We've rented the site we're on and we feel we've outgrown the place

we're running from and we want to expand the business.

Whilst the land will help us really extend our ride packages

-and make more...

-Now he's very chilled!

I wish I was as calm as she is, I can tell you!

Um, whilst the land will really help us extend our ride packages,

we really want to REALLY utilise the land further,

where people can come, they can camp overnight,

bring large groups of dogs and we can cater for them.

And also we'd like to use our trails as a training area

for other sled dog teams.

Um, I'm talking too much.

So the big idea is hopefully to have the UK's leading canine

training centre.

So we thank you for listening

and we offer any questions that you may have.

A well-groomed pitch from this dog-handling duo who are looking

to bring a taste of the Arctic, minus the snow, to the West Country.

Beautiful, aren't they?

They're looking for £100,000 for 20% of their husky ride company.

Deborah Meaden, an animal lover herself,

is first to quiz Chantelle and Vicky.

Gorgeous dogs. It's interesting, actually, just literally,

about three fields over from me, I've got a husky team. In Somerset.

-Really?

-Yeah. I can hear... Quite noisy, aren't they?

-They get very excited before very they go.

-I love them, I love it.

But, yeah, husky racing, which is...

-I hadn't realised, it's quite a big thing. Where are you based?

-Gloucestershire.

Based in Gloucestershire.

So at the moment, what generates most of your income?

-The rides, mainly.

-The rides.

And the accommodation came as sort of a second, because people...

We run early in the morning in the summer so it just seemed silly not to have something for them to stay with.

We're based on the banks of the river Avon, which is

quite pretty and beautiful and they have a field to themselves

where they can run dogs and do whatever they want.

So at the moment, how big is your site? How much accommodation has it got on it?

One yurt, and a hut which is probably the only

hut of its kind in the UK and we have... It's seven acres, one hectare?

The field we run off is a hectare but the actual site that we rent off is about 25 acres.

And what... How much an acre is it, the land that you're looking at?

-Roughly around 10,000.

-It's about 10,000.

So you've almost become like... a dog activity centre, don't you?

Yeah, pretty much. Canine centre, yeah.

So at the moment, are you making any money?

OK, so this year, profit is £6,000.

Last year, though, it was 20,000.

When we decided the business was going to work, we can invest

in more dogs, so we bought housing for them and things like this. We bought better equipment, a new van.

So the first three years, it was seeing if the business was going to work,

if there was a market for it, cos we didn't want to get all these dogs

and not have anything to do with them, so baby steps.

A competent start for the pair,

as they impressed the Dragons with the potential for the canine centre.

But Piers Linney has spotted an anomaly in their business plan.

Hi, I'm Piers.

So really, you're looking at it, it's a property investment,

really, isn't it? You're looking at somebody to fund land.

Why not use Forestry Commission land?

I mean, I'm not sure where you are, because I use, you know,

you see the picture, without the dog, that's me, quite often.

It's really difficult, because there's loads of rules

and regulations about running dogs. You can't just run them anywhere.

And also, even though we go for a very natural image,

you can't just chuck us in the middle of a field.

We've spent a lot of time of where we are to give the right feel

and if we owned our own land... I take pride in what I do, you know.

I would want it to look as natural and as nice as it can

but without owning that, it does limit you as well.

OK, so we buy the land and then it doesn't work out for some reason.

-You end up owning a field.

-They're not making land any more.

So I don't ever see a piece of land as a bad thing.

So how are you looking at structuring that?

Were you thinking of buying it outright?

It would depend on the land.

If a piece of land came up tomorrow and you were to invest

and it was exactly 100,000, then great.

If it was a couple of acres bigger

and we needed to add some more money in, then we would.

So 100k is not enough.

Yeah.

On that basis, you know, good luck with it but I'm out.

Piers Linney is the first to exit, troubled that the duo aren't asking

for enough cash yet intend to spend what they do receive buying land.

But Peter Jones is more concerned with the price they're asking

for 20% of their business.

Um, you haven't really proved that yet you've got a business

that can run on its own two feet.

How do you possibly get to a valuation of nearly half a million pounds for your business?

I think that the evaluation, obviously we have assets,

-we have kennels...

-And what's that worth?

-The kennels are 10,000.

-Kennels 10,000, van is 18.

-So 28,000.

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

-Um, there's the rigs and the equipment but they're probably...

-All the equipment.

-All the equipment, accommodation and everything would probably be 10,000.

-So 38,000. And no loans?

-No. No loans.

-So you've got £38,000 worth of assets.

-Yeah.

But where do you get your valuation from, then?

Um, part of the valuation comes because of us,

our experience and our dogs.

Being what we do, you can't just train them up and let them run.

-It takes years...

-You don't get multiple on you just because of you.

-Yeah.

-So why would you expect to come in here

and think you can value a business that currently, I think,

is worthless, bar 38k, for half a million pounds?

It's a lifestyle job, OK? And if you'd said to me...

Vicky, do you know what, I love the fact that...your honesty.

It's honestly refreshing.

You could've sat there and given me some sort of BS story,

but you didn't. You made one comment that hits home.

You're absolutely spot-on. It's a lifestyle job. Yeah?

But in terms of an investment, the business is worth circa 50k today.

I'm out.

Chantelle and Vicky's pitch implodes as they are taken apart

on their valuation of their business

and forced to take a reality check on its potential.

Where does that leave them with the other Dragons?

Part of the problem is that when you live

and breathe your own business like you have,

it sometimes seems that you're bigger than you are

because you started from nothing and it's got bigger

and you're starting to make money.

But I think that you're better renting land if you can,

because then, you don't need to raise as much capital

and then you can put money into what actually creates the business

and enables you to have more people come and have the experience.

It's really lovely what you're doing, but it's not something

that I'm going to invest in, so I'm afraid I'm out, but good luck.

Um, I... Do you know what, I think you both pitched very well

and I think what the business you have is fantastic.

I think you'll do very well, working hard,

really enjoying it, so I wish you the best of luck but it's not an

investment that I can get involved in so for that reason, I'm out.

Thank you.

With four Dragons gone, only Deborah Meaden remains.

As someone who made a fortune in the leisure industry,

can she find any reason to invest?

I think that you've got opportunities in your business

and what I would do with this is actually speak to

some of the large parks, the caravan parks, because they've often

got huge acreage that they're not allowed to use, you know.

I owned them, and I had hundreds of acres of forestry that

I physically could not build on.

Go and see them and say, "This is how we can enhance your offering to your customer."

It's a lifestyle business.

For an investor, it's kind of a hobby.

And that's not what I'm doing when I sit in this chair.

I'm not looking for hobbies. I'm looking for investments.

-I'm afraid I won't be investing and I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-Good luck.

-Good luck. Thank you very much.

Likeable but not investable.

The entrepreneurs behind Arctic Quest leave the Den empty-handed.

Chantelle and Vicky's exit, however, did leave the floor

free for Dragon rides.

-This is so cool!

-If I let go...

-Oh, don't let go!

Really nice to hear that they thought the business was good,

and keep going. That's encouraging.

Even if we didn't get an investment, it's good to know that they

think your business can work for us two, which it does.

Our next entrepreneurs have a product for our nation of chocoholics.

They think their new hot chocolate drink provides a real alternative

to the many sugary options that currently dominate the market.

Hi, Dragons. My name is Jim Campbell.

I'm managing director of Ozindas Limited and these are my fellow

co-founders, Reuben Maltby, and Simon Hasslacher, who's come...

specially flown over especially from Colombia,

all the way to be here today.

We're here, seeking an investment of £150,000

in exchange for an equity stake of 13% in the business.

We sell a gourmet Colombian hot drinking chocolate

made from 100% cacao.

We have two flagship products - a 250g bar of solid drinking

chocolate and also a 150g pouch filled with chocolate discs.

Both of these products are made using the native Criollo bean

of South America,

which is widely considered to be the Rolls-Royce of the cacao bean world.

In our first year of trading, we achieved sales of £60,000,

and a net profit of 8.5.

In our second year of trading, we achieved sales of £162,000

and a net profit of 40.

In the first quarter of our current year of trading,

we've achieved sales of £152,000 and a net profit of 33.

-Maybe you'd like to taste some of the product.

-Yeah, definitely.

A tempting pitch from the three entrepreneurs

behind Hasslacher's Hot Chocolate, who are seeking

a £150,000 in return for a 13% stake in their business.

But how will the offering go down with Deborah Meaden?

I think the packaging is lovely and it's not just the look and the brand but the feel.

That actually feels like that's just chocolate, wrapped in paper,

-you know?

-We like also the smell. Yeah, because it's not a vacuum sealed, so...

-It's worth pointing out that's actually bagasse paper.

-Yeah, that's sugar cane fibre.

-Yeah.

It just feels real and there was something very pleasing when you were handing it out.

There's something very solid and very chunky about it.

Can you name the supermarkets you're in?

Yeah, we're in 950 Tesco,

um, we're in 227 Waitrose,

we're in about 130 M&Ss,

and then in June we're going to be in 300 Sainsbury's.

So what are you producing it for?

Typically, that product that you're holding there comes in about £1.27.

And then we would sell that on for a gross margin towards 50%.

Quite nice being able to talk to somebody in a grown-up way about their numbers!

Generous margins and a presence in some leading supermarkets.

It's an enticing prospect.

But Piers Linney wants to drill down into the contractual

relationship with their Colombian supplier.

Talk me through the exclusive distribution agreement

and what are the terms? Are there minimum orders, minimum commits?

The contract is built in a flexible way and they've seen,

or I hope they're seeing us very much as the future of their export sales.

Have you got the licence... I'm not interrupting, have you got the licence agreement yet?

-Yes, we do. The agreement.

-Can I see it?

Thank you.

There is a paragraph in here which I would worry about, if I were you.

And that basically says you have got to agree volume targets.

I think, you know, that the supplier knows that we need to.

We know that we need to.

It is a legally binding contract but it is a framework agreement.

It's a legally binding contract that you are breaching at the moment.

We...we..we would certainly claim that we are operating within their volume expectations.

If you create a market that isn't watertight, somebody else could say, "that's a good idea".

They go to Colombia, pick up the same stuff,

put a different brand time, throw some more marketing cash at it...

-Well, they couldn't pick up the same stuff.

-Well, unless that's watertight, they can.

I think to hand over 150k now with this document

doesn't work for me at all. I'm out.

After a promising start, the trio are faltering

and have lost their first Dragon.

Now Peter Jones wants to test their commitment to

building their business.

If I offered you £1 million to take the business,

-rather than by a percentage...

-Well, I think...

-Would you take it?

-I think there'd be a...

-That's £333,000 each.

Well, I think... Well, I wouldn't accept that...

those terms, so therefore it wouldn't happen.

I think, I think, obviously there'd be a control...

-Have you got voting rights over the other two, then?

-No.

-Well, we require three of...all three of us to agree.

-Is it?

-Yeah.

-Are you full-time in this?

-No.

If this was a real, serious business between three people,

you would not have an individual not in that business ten hours

a day, five days a week.

But we're going places with the situation as it currently is.

I mean, it's working, you know.

My opinion is, you should have been the Three Musketeers,

not...D'Artagnan and his mate.

And that's why I'm out.

An exasperated Peter Jones exits the deal,

unconvinced by the company's management structure.

Will Kelly Hoppen or Duncan Bannatyne prove any more

willing to convert their cash into cacao?

I don't totally agree with Peter's view that you should be

a full-time worker in the company and that's the only way

anybody should invest, cos you're there when you needed.

I am a little bit worried that you're in 1,307 stores

and I don't think your turnover per store is all that great.

I can't get to valuation currently of £1 million,

so for that reason I'm out.

I think this LOOKS like a fantastic product.

The branding on it is great but the bottom line is,

you're white-labelling someone else's product.

I can't get excited about a product that really, you haven't invented.

If you'd come in and asked for slightly less money,

and it would be less of a risk, then maybe so, but for £150,000, no.

So I'm sorry, but I'm out.

Four Dragons have declared themselves out.

The entrepreneurs' last hope rests with Deborah Meaden.

But can she see through the thorny issue of the Colombian contract?

I've got myself over the fact that that is not watertight

by any stretch of the imagination and actually I love it.

I love the look of it, I love the taste of it,

you've set it up well, so all of that's fantastic.

Um, can I ask for your forecast in terms of turnover

and we will just do net profit?

-We should comfortably hit 400,000 this year.

-This year.

-How much in terms of profit?

-Um, well, it should be 125,000.

-Next year?

-It should be a minimum of 800,000.

Broadly speaking, I expect it to double its turnover

every year for the next several years, I mean...

Possibly for the foreseeable future.

Guys, I've made the... use the actual words on you,

it's great to be having a grown-up conversation about the finances.

You've just...I'm amazed you can't tell me the forecast figures.

You know, we've focused on operating margins. We've seen our equity investments go up by over 1,000%.

I don't think it's any... I don't think it's particularly

unreasonable to expect anybody coming on board at this time

to not be able to achieve a similar return over a six-year period.

-Er...

-I think we were worried about making lots of kind of accurate forecasts, when...

-Don't be.

-Because making accurate forecasts is a good thing to do.

-But forecasts are only forecasts.

And even make it... Yeah, but you've got...

I've got to think that you've come up with the assumptions.

You know, forecasts are always wrong but I need to know what you

think the business is going to do going forward.

Would you like to make an offer?

Well, I'd like you to tell me how I CAN make an offer

because I'd like you to give me the moment at which I think,

-"Ah! I've got a decent return on my investment."

-Can I just say

with customers like Tesco, giving us an opening order of 950 stores,

-I think they're fairly confident that we're onto something with this.

-But guys, this is words.

This has taken a turn I wasn't expecting it to take.

You've lost me. You're not going to win me back. I'm really sorry, guys. I'm out.

They came close but ultimately, Jim, Simon and Reuben leave the Den with nothing,

having failed to convince a deal-hungry Deborah Meaden to do business.

Well, that was enjoyable!

Deborah was disappointed,

but we'd given what we thought was a reasonable answer.

-Well, Reuben, you fought very well, my friend.

-Yeah.

We are a team and we'll continue to grow the business.

It wasn't to be but we have a great product

and we'll keep taking it forward.

With well over a billion smartphones

and tablets being sold around the world each year, the opportunity

to make money out of gaming apps has never been so inviting.

Oh, my God!

After a spectacular entrance...

You're lucky the lift doors are open!

..Chris Kent wanted a whopping £250,000

for a 25% stake in his software company.

For the last decade or so, we've been creating computer

games for some of the world's biggest brands.

We want to refocus the business on producing a series of original games.

Stunt Guy 2, it's a very simple driving game.

You're basically trying to create as much carnage as possible

without having totalled your car.

-Oh!

-Oh! I hit the ice cream van!

-Ambulance has just come to get me!

-Ambulance just ran me over!

I haven't heard anything you said, Chris!

I'm going to put this down now!

When they'd packed their toys away, it was down to business

and Piers Linney wanted an answer to the most basic of questions for an investor.

-Are you making money or losing money?

-We released Stunt Guy 2 weeks ago.

The revenue is minimal.

Having said that, I think we're still making money

because we're still doing the studio work.

We're, I mean, obviously not on this.

As Chris' casual approach started to unnerve the Dragons,

Peter Jones needed to be sure this pitch was no stunt.

You've come in with a valuation of a million pounds.

What game have you developed that has made

money as a result of your efforts?

Ah, yeah! Well, there's an easy answer to that.

All of our other games have been totally free.

So you have no idea what this game can make?

I think we can create that big hit,

um, and what that is is difficult to predict.

Big money can be won and lost in developing games

and the Dragons thought this was one investment where

they could get their talons burnt.

The problem is, the kid in me is going, "Oh, go on, Kelly, have a go,"

and the adult in me is saying,

"You're not going to gamble that kind of money".

For me to be able to make a decision like this,

I need to have probably my eight-year-old sitting in the chair.

-They'd know more about this than me.

-OK.

You can spend very little on developing a game

and it absolutely takes over the world

and you can spend millions on developing a game and it does nothing.

You can. Companies do spend millions on this stuff and get it wrong.

That's the exactly the opposite of what I want to do.

It was left to Duncan Bannatyne, a businessman of a different

generation, to tell the entrepreneur it was game over.

You made a fantastic entrance.

It was a great stunt but for me, it went downhill from there.

-Well, I'm very sorry.

-You know, you were asked a question by Piers about

whether you were making money at the moment and you said,

"I think we're still making money", all nice and casual

and you stand there wearing trainers and a pair of denims.

I'm wearing trainers and denim.

-I'm out.

-So far in the Den, a near miss.

You lost me. You're not going to win me back. I'm out.

And a pair that were likeable but not investable.

I guess we were hanging on the hope

that someone would be as passionate as we are.

That's the gamble we took.

But will any of our next wannabe tycoons fare any better?

Well, well, well. You look like two likely lads, don't you?

-Something like that.

-How much money have you invested in this so far?

-Near £100,000.

-Yeah, probably, yeah.

-Wow!

-It's dangerous. Have you had any problems with them?

-No.

You've had a radiator come off the wall.

Usually, a new business succeeds in its home market first

and only then is it taken overseas.

But our next entrepreneurs, Patrick Gavin and Chris Bibby - well,

they're doing things the other way around.

They have some sales in the US with their innovative

combination of greeting card and vase

and now they're hoping to make a success of it in Britain.

-Ready, mate?

-Uh-huh.

-Good luck. Let's do it. Here we go.

Good afternoon. My name is Patrick Gavin and this is Chris Bibby

and we are Blooming Simple.

We're here today to ask for £100,000 investment for 10% equity in our business.

Our patented Card Vase product combines a gesture of giving

greeting cards and flowers in one convenient gift,

as my lovely assistant will now demonstrate.

So simply, from its flat-pack form, you simply click the box open,

square it off, and tuck your waterproof bag inside,

with a separate base, peel off sticky tabs, off like so.

Slot over the slots, stick down, stick down.

Each Card Vase has a panel so that you can accessorise

as you would a greeting card, so you're now ready for water.

And ultimately, a full bouquet of flowers.

During the early stages, we recognised the value of having a brand associated with the product

and we was fortunate enough to work with Carte Blanche,

who produce a range of Me to You Tatty Teddy designs.

Since then, we've also had meetings with other global publishers

who are also keen at looking at licensed designs.

I know we believe we have a wide market for our product.

We feel the ideal location, it would be in the floral section of a supermarket

and in June of last year, via our US distributor, we launched

a product into the US with their main focus being the grocery stores.

They're currently working on the business model for this very market.

Recently we've done some work with a US company called Anagram,

who manufacture helium foil balloons.

As you can see, we've matched the Card Vase to their popular balloon designs.

And as you...we feel completes the full floral package.

Now we believe we've barely scratched the surface with Card Vase but hopefully, you can see the unlimited

potential of the product and the many revenue streams it can generate.

We'd like to thank you for listening to our pitch

and hopefully you can see the reason to invest is Blooming Simple!

Now we'd like to answer some of your questions.

A charismatic pitch from this Kent-based double act.

They're looking for £100,000 for 10% of their personalised flower vase business.

You're the baby of the group, I guess!

But will any of the Dragons smell a profit?

Peter Jones is the first to get down to the blooming basics.

Patrick and Chris, well, well, well!

-You look like two likely lads, don't you?

-Something like that!

-Um, I'm a bit confused.

-Yeah.

If it was my birthday,

and somebody sent me a card in an envelope that was flat-packed,

that I had to then make myself, and then realise that it turned into a vase,

then pour water in it and then put flowers on it,

I'm very confused about why that is a presentationally great gift.

Yeah, well, currently we supply to an online florist that actually

stocks the product and delivers a bouquet of flowers with our vase

and since, we've had no er, issues, as to the one like you've...you've... you brought up there.

It's more as the gesture of giving gifts as you would,

so, say for instance where you had a baby boy or a baby girl,

you go and give greeting cards and flowers, so instead of giving

that as separate gifts, you would combine that as a completed gift.

Yeah, no, I get that but I don't get the generic version of it,

because it's a bit like sending somebody a nice picture

-and a frame and all the glass and just throw it in a box.

-Well...

And say, "Here you go. There's a nice gift for you but make it yourself."

A far from simple start for Chris and Patrick.

But to help make their case, they do have something of a track record in the United States.

So at the moment in America, where are those sold?

Er, well, they've got placement at the moment in Walmart, Meijer hypermarkets.

-They're basically targeting and building the business model for that target.

-And they've...

How many times have they reordered?

Er, so over the past 18 months, they've invested in over half

a million pieces and the last order was 129,000 pieces.

So if that's the case, how successful has this been?

-Tell us the numbers since 2010. Revenue net profit.

-OK.

So last year, we turned over 224,000, with a net of 12,000.

The year before that was a turnover of 60,000 with a net loss of 13,000.

And the year before that, we turned over 12,000 with a net loss of 95.

OK. So you've made losses so far of 106,000.

-And you've made a profit of 12.

-So if I went into a shop...

-Yeah.

..and I bought one of these to send a friend, what would it cost me?

£4.49 for our designs and the licensed design is £4.99.

-So say for 4.49, what does it cost you to make them?

-It cost us 48p.

-48p.

-Yes.

-That's the whole thing in the shop.

-That's the package as you see it, yeah.

-Chris, Patrick.

-Yes.

-Um, are you doing any business at all in the UK?

-Yes, we are.

So we're selling to independent florists.

We've had quite advanced talks with Interflora, so they are looking

to place the product and open it to their 1,800 florists for us.

It might be good to add that we have a meeting with the floral buyer

at Morrison's next week,

so we are looking to obviously take advantage of the supermarket.

-Um...

-OK.

Listen, I think that Morrisons or Tesco or somebody will take it

and I can kind of see it in the aisle.

The problem I have is somebody is going to go over

-and they're going to go and buy the flowers.

-Mm-hm.

They've already clocked in their mind that's what they're spending.

They've then got to spend more money than they would probably be

spending on maybe a card, or they were just going to give the flowers.

It's two purchases and I think mentally, that might

stop someone from buying.

Anyway, the point is, guys, it's not doing it for me

-and I'm not going to invest so I'm out.

-Thank you.

Strong US sales and a growing footprint in the UK have

failed to woo Kelly Hoppen.

And Piers Linney is now ready to have his say.

-Chris, hi. Patrick as well.

-Hello there.

When you first came out, I never thought I'd see the words,

"It completes the floral package" come out of your mouth, um,

so the point is, if you came downstairs on Mother's Day,

-and that was sitting on your kitchen table...

-Yes.

-This, the flowers, the balloon.

-Complete package.

Your mum would be very happy about it.

The problem is, is that to get that, you're talking about a bit of DIY.

The finished product, I get it - it's great, actually.

-It's literally 20 seconds.

-But it is delivery that is the issue.

-Yeah.

Your business is just basically the bottom bit.

The rest of it is Interflora, a whole different business,

or a partner of yours.

-Best of luck with it, guys, but I'm out.

-Thank you, Piers.

A further blow to the pair as Piers Linney declines the offer

to invest, unconvinced of the gift's appeal.

And to pile on the pressure,

Duncan Bannatyne has questions about their finances.

-OK, so the company made £12,000 profit last year.

-Net profit.

-Is that right? Net profit.

-Yeah.

-So did you take a salary?

Er, my salary was only £7,000 last year.

-So how are you putting bread on the table? Where is the money coming from?

-Well, he's...

Er, well, my savings have disappeared,

my car's disappeared and now I've moved home.

So if you had taken a salary, what would it have made?

-Nothing. It wouldn't have made anything.

-It would've made a loss?

-Yes.

-Of what? £10-20,000?

Correct.

So how do you get a valuation on the company of £1 million?

We valued the company as what we feel, with all the potential,

in the future, I know it will be worth...it will be worth considerably more.

Do you want my money today or five years in the future?

-Today would be good.

-Today. So let's talk about today's value.

-Yeah.

Realistically, what's it worth today?

-What it's turning over.

-You think it's worth 224,000?

-Probably slightly more.

-Slightly more?

-I'd say so.

-How much more? 250?

-300.

-So you're now saying you want £100,000 for 33%.

-That's what YOU'RE saying.

-No, you're saying that.

You said it's worth 300,000.

So you tell me what you think, realistically

the valuation of the company is today for an investor investing today.

Well, yeah, as you know, as you said, you've pulled us on the figures,

so, you know, I can only agree with that.

-I'm out. Sorry.

-Thank you. Thanks.

Guys, um, I like it. I think it's neat.

But I think my biggest worry,

you are miles off on valuation, to the point at which, I'd need

more than half of this company to actually make you an offer.

-So I'm out.

-Thank you very much.

The entrepreneurs have fallen at every hurdle

and failed to keep the Dragons onside.

Only Peter Jones is yet to declare his position.

-It's not been easy, has it?

-No, not at all.

Um, I think you've got a good product. I think it's clever.

But your whole way of going to market is flawed.

You are never, ever, ever, and don't take this just

as a challenge, but you are going to lose the lovely suits on your

back if you continue to sell the way you're selling this business.

I think you have a market opportunity that you've completely missed.

This, as far as I'm concerned, has to be,

when you receive your flowers, a temporary item.

You should go to Interflora, you should license it to them

and I think you can make a lot of money doing it.

But I don't think the way that you're selling it is right.

And those are the only reasons why I'm not going to invest.

So I'm going to say I'm out but I thought you pitched really well.

-Thank you very much. Thank you for your time.

-Thanks a lot, guys.

-Appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you.

The charismatic entrepreneurs walk away without investment...

That's a blooming shame!

..but with some sage advice on how they could turn their business around.

Nice one, son.

-Good pitch, that was.

-Yeah. Well done.

-Nice guys.

-Yeah.

-It's funny, isn't it? It's one of those neat things.

But you work out why anybody would use it. If they had it right, that would be great.

It comes nowhere near the fantastic birthday present I got this year.

Sent to me by Peter Jones.

It's a beautiful picture of Peter Jones.

I have it on my mantelpiece. It's signed by Peter Jones. Yeah.

What can you get the guy that's got everything?

A picture of me!

Others that have tried and failed in the Den.

I was a bit disappointed that I didn't get the investment.

A good feedback, apart from Duncan, who fell asleep.

Um, but, you know, that's fine.

-I'm quite disappointed that Kelly didn't invest.

-Good luck. I'm out.

Thank you. All the Dragons are brilliant.

I would have loved to have anyone on board. I'd love to work with them.

I was especially gutted that Deborah didn't like the idea

of spraying perfumes on dogs.

I actually don't like dogs smelling of anything other than natural dogs.

Next in were Jill and Alan Boulton from Dunbar.

How did they fare with their solution to a common problem

experienced by the UK's million-plus motorcyclists?

Imagine you're driving along in your car

and your windscreen is covered in flies or in road salt.

Motorcyclists face that same problem every day but now,

they can safely clean as well as wipe the visor while riding.

Visorcat transforms the glove into a complete visor cleaning system.

This brother-and-sister team wanted £80,000 for 10%

of their business.

But the Dragons were struggling to get a clear view

of how their product actually worked.

-Jill, you said Alan was going to demonstrate it.

-Yep.

I don't really think he did, well, not to me, anyway. Maybe I'm just being dense.

So what you're saying is, so you wipe, that comes over,

-so the wet sponge - that's how it works?

-Yep.

And you wipe the other way and the flap stays shut,

so you get a dry wipe.

-Dries it, wipes.

-Yep.

-Now I see it. That's a demonstration, that.

Peter Jones, not known for his love of motorbikes,

thought that he had come up with an even simpler solution.

I mean, if you've got to do that,

you've already got one hand off the wheel... It's not a wheel, is it?

-What did you call these things?

-Handlebar.

-Handlebar!

-Handlebars, Peter!

What about your little sponge and a little thing that when you need

it, you just pick up your squeegee, do that and put it back down?

-Well, the danger is, you might drop it.

-Well, no.

It would be on a string. You haven't asked me what my invention is yet.

Joking over, it was time for Piers Linney to rev up

the interrogation with some questions about their sales.

So the premise is, motorcyclists struggle with flies and water and

whatever else and you've invented the Holy Grail, the solution.

-Absolutely.

-So why isn't there a queue of them standing outside some shops?

Well, because we are a start-up business. Our budget has been very, very small.

Guys, can I ask you how much money you've invested in this so far?

-Near 100,000.

-Yeah, probably, yeah.

-Wow!

You haven't done this on a shoestring.

You've spent £100,000 doing this.

But it was another number, a far bigger one,

that meant it was the end of the road for this motorcycling couple.

I'm clearly not your target audience.

But it's absolutely, almost bananas to think that you've got

something worth nearly £1 million.

I just don't see a return on an £80,000 investment at any level.

You've really, really seriously overvalued it. I'm out.

You have to think big as an entrepreneur

but you can, of course, think big about a small product.

If it solves a problem and you sell a lot, you can make large

amounts of money and that's what our next entrepreneur hopes.

He's 18-year-old Jordan Daykin, and he has a solution to the

challenge of firmly fixing screws into plasterboard.

Hello, Dragons.

My name is Jordan and I'm here from my company, Grip It Fixings,

looking for an investment of £80,000 for 20% of my company.

This is Craig and he'll be giving you a demonstration later.

Grip It Fixings are a new, universal plasterboard fixing solution,

designed for use in dot and dab, cavity walls, double thickness

and insulated plasterboard, holding loads of up to 180 kilos per fixing.

We have a full UK patent and a patent pending in America

and in just eight months, we're already in over 500 stores

across the UK and in talks with major distribution chains.

Just going on the 250,000 new homes built per year

and six million home moves per year,

the total potential market for the UK exceeds 200 million fixings.

We aim by year three to achieve a 3% market share, giving us

a net profit of £900,000.

As you'll see, we've got 50k weights there,

holding on just four brown fixings.

And we've got a kitchen cupboard here, held up by four red fixings

and that's currently got a 20 kilo weight on.

Here's a sample of my fixings.

Craig will now give you a demonstration of the product.

Looking to ease the frustrations of tradesmen and DIY enthusiasts,

this Wiltshire teenager is seeking £80,000 for a 20% stake of his business.

But at just 18 years old,

how will this young entrepreneur fare with the fiery Dragons?

-Jordan, hi. I'm Piers.

-Hi, Piers.

-So how have you funded development?

Because this is not a cheap item to develop.

It's from my father's investment, that he's loaned me, basically.

-How much?

-It stands at now £207,000.

-207. Debt or equity?

-It's a loan between me... him and me, sorry.

-Right.

-So then I've invested the shares.

-It's you and your dad.

-Is your father actively involved in the business, or...?

-He's not, no.

He's got... He's either over in Africa or up in Bristol.

-Over in Africa or Bristol?

-Yeah.

-That's quite a wide range of...

-He's got a mining operation over in Sierra Leone.

-Oh, really?

-What kind of mining?

-It's diamond and gold. So diamonds and gold.

Wow! Great. D'you think he'd lend us some money if we invested in you?

-He's not that wealthy, so...!

-What's your background?

-How did you come up with this?

-Um, well, I'm 18 now. I was 13.

-How old are you?

-18. I was...

-18?

-I was 13 at the time. Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I was 13 at the time. It was me and my grandad.

My parents split up and I moved into their house and they're building me a room

and I was being finicky and wanted curtain rails and a blind

and we'd fit...the curtain rail was OK, we got it, we got there.

With the blind, obviously, you've got the lintel, above,

so when you're drilling in, we kept breaking drill bits,

so I'm stood there holding... my grandad's got the drill,

and we broke three or four drill bits, went down to Wickes

and bought every fixing you could think of

and we couldn't find a solution, so we went into the shed/workshop

that he's got and came up with a prototype of this out of nylon.

-What, so a real inventor's shed at the bottom of the garden?

-Yeah.

And that's where it came from.

And then, obviously, we got it patented and then, here we are.

-Jason, you're extraordinary.

-I know.

You know, to at 13, come up with something that needs solving

and you and your grandfather to actually go and solve it.

That is extraordinary.

Praise indeed for the teen entrepreneur.

But will his DIY invention stand up to the kind of scrutiny that

only Peter Jones can give?

-Can I just have a quick look at that radiator?

-Yes, sure.

I want to see how secure it is.

Obviously, it's...

That's a pull-out load, sorry.

Why did it...why did it break so easily there, then?

That would have either been as it's been left in a damp area

overnight, or...obviously, pull-out load is 39 kilos.

I didn't even pull strongly on that and it moved on that side.

-Jordan, have you had any problems with them?

-No.

Well, you've had a radiator come off the wall.

Jordan, you know, I've got kids. I know what happens.

Radiators, you get a little bit cold, that's the first thing they do is go there.

-The next thing they do is sit on the thing.

-Yeah, and the next thing...

The next thing, if it comes off like that, it's dangerous.

A setback for the young entrepreneur,

as the Den catches his invention out.

But Duncan Bannatyne wants to return to the positives in his pitch.

-So you've got them in 500 stores.

-Yes. The main...

That sounds absolutely fantastic. You sold how many millions?

Up to now in the last eight months, just over 200,000 units.

200,000 units. At what price?

The wholesale price is 32p on average over the four fixings.

-So how much is that in money?

-In money, we've turned over 78,000 so far.

-£78,000. Over how long?

-Over the last eight months. Since last...

What's your margin on that?

So you've got a gross profit of 36,000 and a net of 5.5.

What stores are you in?

Currently in the Grafton Merchanting group,

so you've got Buildbase, Plumbase, Jackson stores.

We've got...which cover up sort of 300 stores

and we're in just under 220 independents.

Next month we're actually going to Travis Perkins, which is the 25.

-So you've already done the deal with Perkins?

-Travis Perkins, yeah.

I've got a letter of intent, well, their 25 stores they're taking on

with a roll-out of 700, er, the rest of the 700.

Wow.

Jordan fights back with reports of buoyant sales

and a healthy turnover.

But will Peter Jones be able to see beyond the earlier failed

demonstration, involving the radiator on damp plasterboard?

You're exceptional and you're only 18 and you've created this product.

I suppose it just comes down to how,

because of the level of complication,

where you can get this done in terms of cost of manufacture.

That could be your biggest stumbling point.

Yeah, I mean, what the investment breakdown is,

if that might help out, is there's - out of the 80,000,

there's 20,000 for increasing stock levels for the new demand,

10,000 is to set up a distribution warehouse

and then it's 50,000 deposit on a machine to automate the assembly.

That brings the cost down per fixing to 3p,

but that costs 350,000, which makes 20 of these a minute.

So that actually means that putting the 50,000 in creates debt

-within the business because you'd be buying a piece of equipment that's...

-Yeah.

-OK.

-Jordan, I'm going to tell you where I am.

-Yeah, sure.

-Um...

It's a combination of...

The scale of your ambition at 18 is unbelievable and it is fantastic

but actually, that's also,

because I know nothing about this marketplace,

that also can work in my opinion to your disadvantage,

because when you talk about now taking on an ultimate

liability of 350,000 to drive your business forward,

I then combine the level of risk and I put that in the high bracket.

I think it's great what you've done, um...

But it's actually too high risk for me

-to invest in so I'm going to tell you that I'm out.

-Thanks for your time.

But I'm going to say good on you

and a lot of people watching this will admire you.

Thanks, Peter.

Jordan has lost his first Dragon. Well others now follow suit?

You're an extraordinary young man and an incredible story

and, you know, I do build houses but I don't physically build them

so I don't know how they're actually...

what products people use, so I don't know enough about it, um...

I don't think it's something that I want to get involved in

-but I wish you luck but I'm afraid I'm out.

-Thanks, Kelly.

I mean, it's been said, hasn't it, there is some risk?

I think the complexity adds a cost and it's a question of whether

-the usefulness of it overcomes, you know, the extra expense.

-Yeah.

Um... I'm not going to put 80k into it. It's a bit too...

It's a bit rich for me on this one, I'm afraid. So I'm out.

But best of luck with this, because, fair play, you've done a great job.

Further concerns about risk have spooked two more Dragons

out of parting with their cash.

Only Deborah Meaden and Duncan Bannatyne are left.

I think you're extraordinary.

This is a very eloquent solution to a problem that is

solved in various ways but not one of them, do you think,

-"OK, that's it, that's great."

-Yeah.

And I can see that tradesmen, it would make it quicker,

easier, safer - all of those things, I get that.

-I also get the DIY market.

-Yeah.

It will have a lot more confidence in putting that into

and I can also see, there are areas that you would use it,

that you couldn't use the existing solutions to a problem.

You know, and I'm just thinking myself, in the caravan industry, I just think,

my goodness, if only this was available when they were actually putting the wall unit on them,

because that's entirely made of plasterboard, you know.

So, you know, I sit here and think there are many opportunities.

Um...

So...

I'm going to offer you all of the money.

-Thanks.

-And I want...

30% of the business.

Jordan has his first offer.

Now Duncan Bannatyne, who was so impressed by his sales,

has the chance to give Deborah Meaden a run for her money.

Um, Jordan, I think it's fantastic that at 18 years old, you can

come in front of us with an invention. I think it's great.

I'm just a little bit concerned that it isn't all that much better

than what is already out there in the market.

And it isn't that much of an improvement.

Maybe an alternative rather than an improvement. Um...

And, you know, it could be worth a punt,

but I wouldn't even try and beat the offer that Deborah made.

-That's all right. Thanks.

-But sorry, I'm out.

-Thanks.

Right. Thanks for the offer.

Would you be willing to meet me halfway at 25%?

Um...

I think that meeting you halfway

would be a good demonstration to both of us

that we're starting on a very good foot on our business relationship,

so I'm very happy to meet you halfway

because I'd like this to start off as a partnership.

-Well, I'd like to accept your offer.

-Excellent! There you go. Well done.

-Very good. Very good.

-Thanks for your time, Dragons.

-Jordan, well done.

-Thanks, Peter.

-Great job.

-Thanks.

Uncharacteristically for Deborah Meaden,

she allows this budding entrepreneur to

negotiate her down and as Jordan walks away with £80,000 of investment...

Go and sit in the chair, Deborah!

-I'm going to go and sit on the chair.

-But you're light!

..his new business partner decides to turn teenage herself.

Obviously, when they found out I was 18,

it did change everyone's reaction in the Den. Even Peter.

And then when Deborah invested, it was a shock, really. I mean, wow!

I didn't really know what to say, really. I was a bit speechless after all that. No, it was brilliant.

So chocolate drinks and husky rides, motorbike accessories

and paper vases - such varied products

but all faced the same thorny old problem this week - valuation.

Yet it was one that Jordan Daykin at least wasn't going to stumble on.

Well done to him. Would you invest in his

or any of the other businesses in the Den tonight?

Well, you can join the conversation about the pitches on Twitter

using the hashtag #dragonsden.

Coming up next week...

What are my pants doing up there?

Do you know, sometimes I sit in this chair and I just think,

people come in here and think we've all got "mug" written on our heads.

-You've wasted three years of your life.

-You said that last time.

-I don't care, but...

-That's six years now!

I think this is the first time that we've been pitched a really great product by a multimillionaire.

Right, well, I'm going to make you an offer.

Kelly's just gazumped me.