Episode 13 Dragons' Den

Tonight on Dragons' Den...

I've never actually thrown my glass of water over anybody yet.

You could be the first.

I can tell you one thing, you will look back and say, "Mistake."

There's not a chance.

I am definitely out.

No, I'm not going to put myself in your shoes, because I don't have to.

That is absolutely bonkers.

I think you've blown it.

Do you know, I think I'm going to make you an offer.

Welcome to Dragons' Den.

It's here that business is done.

Once those lift doors open,

entrepreneurs' fortunes can be made or their dreams can be shattered.

First in the Den tonight is Craig Knott from Yorkshire.

An inventor entrepreneur, he takes the business world in his stride.

Maybe I'm a little bit different cos I'm not led by making money.

If a Dragon invests, I don't want it to change me.

What I want is the support and the experience from a Dragon

to move things forward.

Hoping Craig gets that support are his business associates,

Alan Bowman and Peter Farragh.

They've already backed him and his product.

Will the Dragons do the same?

I just think this is a proper product.

-It's a bit of design.

-I'm feeling nervous now.

Go on, Craig.

Hi, Dragons, pleased to meet you.

My name is Craig, I'm the inventor and owner of Patlock.

Patlock is a home security device

for French doors and conservatory doors.

I'm here today looking for an investment of £90,000

for a 10% stake in the business.

I developed Patlock following an attempted break-in at home,

after which the police informed me

just how easy it was to gain entry by snapping

the standard Euro cylinder locks

that are fitted to most French doors.

It can take less than a minute for a burglar to do so.

With over 1,000 burglaries taking place every single day in the UK,

Patlock helps to make one of the most vulnerable parts

of your home one of the safest.

Patlock is quick and easy to fit.

And provides the homeowner with instant peace of mind,

as well as a clear visual deterrent to any would-be intruder.

Patlock works by sitting on the internal handles

and holding them secure...

..and restricting the movement...

..of the external handles...

therefore retaining the locked position of all shoots and levers

within the door mechanism.

In two years of trading, we've sold over 20,000 units,

with a turnover in excess of £350,000.

And I expect that to reach £1 million

within the next three years.

We currently sell through our own website

and also online through retailers such as Amazon,

Argos, B&Q and Screwfix.

With the help of a Dragon,

we are hoping to increase the brand awareness,

expand further into the retail industry

and look to expand overseas.

Thank you very much.

It's a no-nonsense pitch from Craig Knott from Shipley,

as he opens the door to a £90,000 investment

for a 10% stake in his home security product.

He's going to give them one each.

That's our stock!

But is there a catch with Craig's latch?

First up with the questions is Peter Jones.

If I were to smash the window from the outside...

Yes.

-..I'd be able to open the door, wouldn't I?

-You would.

You'd be able to do that. Quite simply.

The thing that a Patlock tells a burglar is that the homeowner

is security conscious.

So it may not be the only thing that they've got on their doors,

it may not be the only thing they've got in the house.

So is it not a bit like putting a sticker on your window,

saying security alarm, and putting a false light outside?

I suppose there's a whole range of things, isn't there?

But it does the real thing.

A burglar uses the lock snapping because it's quiet.

You can break in quickly and quietly.

Break a window, you make some noise.

You alert people.

So if it's a smash and grab, they're going to break it,

they're going to do it anyway. But if they want to go further in,

take more of your personal goods,

then they're going to walk away from that and go somewhere else.

Craig stands his ground,

secure in his believe that his lock has the capacity to deter would-be

intruders.

And now Sarah Willingham wants to break into his numbers.

-So you've been trading for two years.

-Yeah.

And over the course of those two years, your turnover has been 350?

-Yes.

-How has that grown?

-In the first year,

where we didn't start trading until the back end of it,

we turned over 15,000.

-OK.

-The second year, 150.

And this year, I expect to reach about 400,000.

So why is this year different, what's happened?

We've produced a TV ad, which we ran locally in Yorkshire,

which created a great response, so we sold a lot of units through that.

We've run it again on a satellite TV channel.

And I can see that being the way forward.

It's making the public aware that this product exists.

How much did your TV advertising cost?

In total, it cost about £25,000.

And how many leads did that generate which ended up in conversions and

-purchases?

-It will be about 2,500 units.

OK. How much are you selling that for?

You can buy it online for between £50 and £60.

So if you spend 25 grand and you get £125,000 worth of sales,

what was your profit on that?

It would be approximately 60,000.

-So for every pound you are spending, you're getting £2.50 back?

-Yes.

I mean, that's a business model right there.

Of course it is a business model. That's why he's here.

Craig's back-to-basics approach to selling his product

has demonstrated an impressive yield.

Now, the Den's go-to Dragon for DIY investments is keen

to get to the bottom of how his website is coping with the demand.

-BOTH:

-Eh!

-Deborah's here.

When you place an advert, how many people buy one of those?

-Through our website?

-Through your website.

Not many at all cos we price it too high.

All right. So, hold on, your £50 and £60 price.

Is that a real price, or is that a price to stop people buying it?

No, £50 to 60 is what the resellers sell online.

-So if you go on Amazon...

-All right. What do you sell it at online?

64.

Oh, my goodness, Craig!

Craig, Craig, Craig.

It's frustrating her, I love it!

-Can I say these words back to you?

-Go on.

Try and keep a straight face.

All right? I've got something I know people want to buy,

but I really can't be bothered to sell it to them.

-It's not not being bothered.

-So what I actually do,

what I actually do is I overprice it...

-You see, you are smiling.

-Yeah.

Based on what you've just told Deborah about it being £64

from your website but about 55-ish everywhere else,

do people come to your website to buy it but go, "Hang on a minute..."

Then they go look somewhere else.

They don't look impressed.

The shock revelation that Craig is deliberately deflecting sales

away from his own website has done little to make the Dragons

feel secure in the investment proposition.

Can Nick Jenkins, who made his millions in e-commerce,

fathom it out?

So, presumably you are intending through your TV advertising

to get them to go to your website and buy from you directly.

-Is that right?

-No, it's not.

Why? Why would you not do that?

I don't want to deal with all the postage and single orders.

That's absolutely nuts.

-Yes, exactly.

-What I've tried to do is drive people to the companies who

buy stock from us,

so that they are dealing with all the day-to-day orders, the postage,

the problems like that. So I'm not having to deal with every single

-order which comes through.

-Are you a one-man band?

For this business, there's two of us.

Oh. How many businesses have you got?

I've got a manufacturing business.

-How big is that business?

-It's turnover is just under a million.

-Is that profitable?

-Yes, it makes a profit, makes me a wage.

Touker Suleyman has uncovered Craig's main business interest,

which appears to take precedence

over the business he's come in to pitch.

The revelation is not sitting well with Deborah Meaden.

Businesses that I work with stand or fall on that absolute

"I've got something."

And do you know, they might have a product

that's half as good as yours,

but they are going to sell it.

They're going to make sure their website is active,

and they're going for it.

It's not a case of that.

You've got to look after your bread-and-butter.

Put yourself in my shoes. I've got a business which supplies me with a

-wage.

-No, I'm not going to put myself in your shoes...

-All right.

-Because I don't have to.

I like it, and I like you.

But it's low-energy.

OK, relaxed.

-He's too relaxed, that's the problem.

-He's laid back.

No. Not even relaxed, I don't mind relaxed.

-Right.

-Low energy is different to relaxed.

-OK.

-There's just no...

And I think it's a real shame because I think you have definitely,

definitely, you've got something here.

And this is why you've got to have the energy to do this.

Just grab it and take the lid off every barrier that you see,

knock it down and just sell.

But I'm sadly not convinced,

you haven't convinced me in here that you've got that in you.

I'm out.

-HE WHISPERS

-You can't change a person.

Never mind.

Deborah Meaden is the first Dragon to bolt from the deal,

refusing to step into Craig's shoes or invest in his business.

And Peter Jones is feeling similarly disillusioned

with the deal on offer.

I'm going to tell you where I am.

So, I think the product,

it's a neat product and I think it clearly...

it does what it says on the tin.

I am

really not interested as an opportunity as a business.

-OK.

-And I think you have clearly come in here with a one-hit wonder

product, thinking you can pass all responsibility over,

and direction for running it, to the potential investor,

and that does not excite me.

You need to fight back, Craig.

That's not what I'm after.

-A little bit of guidance...

-It's about commitment...

-..to the business and the cause.

-OK.

And if you have another business and this is a sideline business,

a one-hit product wonder, when this sells out,

I've got a business that's going nowhere fast.

And that doesn't interest me at all.

So that's the reason why I'm not going to invest,

-and say that I'm out.

-All right. Thanks.

If I were to make an investment, it would need a lot of work.

The fact that you've got another business, the fact that nobody

works for this business, that's my...problem.

I can only say that the business I've got now, the existing one,

I've run for ten years, and it's been successful for me.

It's taken a lot of time and effort to keep it that way,

and I can put that energy into Patlock and do exactly the same

with that, if not even more.

OK. If it was different, I would invest.

But, however, because of the way it is at the moment,

and the amount of time it's going to be,

I'm afraid I can't invest in this - I'm out.

Close but no cigar,

as Touker Suleyman makes a hasty retreat,

hot on the heels of Peter Jones.

Will Nick Jenkins see a window of opportunity?

If you really grasp this,

you probably have the means to really make this work.

I like to invest in businesses that have a long-term future.

And ultimately, this is a problem of a design in patio doors

which will be sold in the future, so in five years' time,

everyone who needs to buy these things will have either bought them

or they'll have bought doors that don't have this issue.

So I don't really see a future for it.

So I'm afraid I can't invest in it.

I'm out.

Nick Jenkins exits the deal,

unconvinced that the burglar-proof device

is a future-proof investment opportunity.

Now only one Dragon remains.

Where you lost me was that moment where you said,

"But this isn't my bread and butter."

And that's a real struggle because...

..in order for me to invest in something with you,

I don't just want it to be your bread and butter,

but I want it to be your whipped cream on top as well.

I want it to be EVERYTHING.

From my point of view, that makes it quite difficult to invest in and to

commit to because you're the magic,

you're the guy that's got to make it work,

no matter how many doors I open.

So, I mean, I think you'll make some money out of it.

And I wish you all the very best,

-because it's a great product, actually.

-Righty.

But I'm really sorry, I'm not going to invest.

-OK.

-So I'm out.

-Thanks very much.

-Well done, Craig.

-I'll take your advice on board.

-DRAGONS:

-Good luck.

A reluctance to sell the product through his website

and Dragon doubts over the time he can commit to the business

means that Craig leaves the Den without the loot he came in for.

-Hey, hey!

-Oh... That went well(!)

-It's fine.

-You were brilliant. You did great.

-Well done.

-Fantastic.

I never felt it was going well.

From the minute I walked in, it was question, question, question.

-And your mind goes blank.

-I can believe the pressure.

You could see the pressure on your face.

Peter called it a one-hit wonder, and I'm OK with that,

as long as it makes number one.

The next entrepreneur into the Den

is Angela Sterling from County Durham,

who traded teaching for business after a flash of inspiration.

I pretty much came up with the idea and started doing it.

I've been a teacher for a lot of years,

so it was just a case of taking that teaching expertise

and bringing it down for younger children.

Are the Dragons going to be inside?

-WHISPERS:

-They are! Yes.

-Whee!

-Are you excited?

In business, I like to be really honest, ethical, upfront, you know,

just like my personality.

I wear my heart on my sleeve.

Big smile! Let's get ready.

# Buenos dias

# Me presento

# Buenos dias

# Hola

# Zhe shi wo de tou

# Zhe shi wo de tou

# Ni hao, ni hao, hi

# Bonjour, bonjour Je me presente

# Bonjour, bonjour Salut

# Hello, hello, hi. #

-PETER:

-I'm in.

-SHE LAUGHS

(Well done.)

Hello, Dragons. I'm delighted to be here today,

my name is Angela Sterling,

and I'm here to pitch for £50,000

in return for 10% of my business,

Lingotot language classes for children.

The UK needs great linguists for businesses to thrive

in the global economy,

and research tells us that the very best time to learn a language

is before adolescence.

And in 2014, languages became compulsory in primary schools

in England. And that's where Lingotot comes in.

We teach French, Spanish, German,

Mandarin and Arabic to children aged from birth to 11

through a network of 30 franchisees.

And we teach around about 10,000 children every week.

Last year, I turned over £188,000,

making a net profit of £88,000.

So, Dragons, hopefully with your help,

we can get more children in the UK and across the world speaking in

different languages.

Avez-vous des questions? Right, boys and girls.

Give me a high-five.

It's a tres bien pitch from Angela Sterling from County Durham,

who is asking for £50,000 in return for 10% of her franchise-based

multi-language classes for kids.

OK, boys and girls. Au revoir!

-Merci beaucoup.

-Cheers!

Sarah Willingham, who has a lucrative track record

in rolling out global franchises,

is first with the questions.

Will she find a common language with the linguistic entrepreneur?

I haven't quite got my head round it.

Just explain a little bit more to me as a customer

-what my experience would be.

-Absolutely. Well,

I kind of have two different levels of speaking to you as a customer.

The first would be as mum.

So imagine you go along to all kinds of preschool classes with your

children, so that might be messy play,

it might be a little bit of singing, it might be drama.

We do exactly that, but in a foreign language.

But then we have a second tier where we work with nurseries and schools,

and schools particularly.

So we go into the school, we come in with all of the lessons,

the resources, and we crucially provide the languages teacher.

OK, so up until the age of five,

you are delivering it direct to the child?

-Yes.

-And past the age of five, you are going into schools?

-Yes.

-Angela.

-Yes.

-Hi.

-Hello, Peter.

I immediately have quite a few concerns.

You're making some very bold statements.

Your current network are teaching 10,000 kids per week.

-Yes.

-So last week you taught 10,000 children.

What did you generate in income?

Um, I bill the franchisees their 10% fee

at the end of every academic term.

I don't do it monthly. Or weekly.

So generally speaking...

..they would turn over, as a network,

around about £500,000 a year.

And you charge them what, 10%?

Yes.

So you charge them 50,000 for the year?

Yes.

So in simple terms, £10,000 a week is being generated by your network?

So about £1 per child average.

Wow.

I've never broken down the figures to that extent before.

Despite Angela's Lingotot classes reaching 10,000 children a week,

Peter Jones's forensic breakdown of her figures reveals that per child,

there are only small profits to be made for a Dragon investor.

Can she persuade Deborah Meaden that investing in her business

will be money well spent?

What are you going to do with the money,

what do you need the money for?

Two things. One of them is really to get more bums on seats,

to sell more franchises, grow the network as much as possible.

But mainly...

I'm really, really nervous telling you this.

I know immediately you're going to go, "Oh!"

Just say it.

I've never actually thrown my glass of water over anybody yet.

You could be the first.

We are seriously looking to export to Dubai,

and I have very good reasons for it, I promise.

OK, go on, then.

Because if I was in your shoes, I'd be saying, "Well, Angela, come on,

"you've only just got a tiny little bit of the UK,

"why on earth would you be wanting to go to Dubai?"

-Yes.

-So the answer is, I used to work there, I used to teach there.

Most of the schools there are great big international private schools.

Full of expat children.

And the issue that they have is because they are in the Middle East,

they need to teach at least four hours of Arabic to the children

every week. But their Arabic teachers,

they've been taught to teach in a very different way.

Very chalk and talk.

And it alienates children.

Their version of Ofsted are really looking for partners in the UK.

They have a problem, I have the perfect solution,

and if I don't move on it now, I'm going to miss the boat.

In an unanticipated twist,

Angela has revealed audacious expansion plans.

And now Touker Suleyman is keen to find out

how a Dragon would fit into them.

Angela,

-apart from money...

-Mm-hm.

..what do you want from a Dragon?

Support.

Support.

I'd really... I'm feeling myself getting emotional.

I'm a teacher, I've learned the business as I go along.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I wasn't expecting this.

Oh, dear.

How embarrassing.

And all of the business, I'm really proud of it,

but I've had to learn it from scratch.

And I feel at the moment, I feel constrained.

Because I don't know the answers to the questions.

I don't know the right people to ask the questions to,

and most of the time I don't even know the question.

I'm dead sorry, I wasn't expecting this.

-It's all right.

-It's really frustrating.

So...

What I would love from a Dragon...

..is just answers, you know.

I want to do this, how do I do it, what do I do, where do I go?

Who do I ask?

While an emotional Angela recovers her composure,

her ambitious strategy for international growth

is playing on Sarah Willingham's mind.

The challenge I'm really feeling sitting here thinking about it

as an investment opportunity is that

it becomes really complicated when you start to go abroad.

I understand why you've done the Dubai thing.

But you are limited to the international school market,

you are very limited to the places where you have significant expats.

It's not enormous.

Not franchising, though.

Not franchising.

Franchising will not work in Dubai.

We are going to teach them how to deliver a Lingotot course.

If I can share with you the projections for Dubai,

that might help.

So, I've had all of this checked by specialists as well,

and they actually think I'm under egging things.

But I'm looking at this year, we'd be turning over £750,000,

with a net profit of 500.

Year two, 1.3, with a net profit of one million.

And then two million, with a net profit of 1.5 million.

And that's simply because, over in Dubai,

we would be going out as almost consultants,

we'd be upskilling their teachers.

We'd go out, we'd train them,

we'd provide them with all the materials and support, but...

-Angela. Angela, that's mad.

-SARAH:

-That means your franchisees

-are turning over 10 million.

-It's not mad.

It's absolutely mad. Do you know what,

-you need to put maths into this.

-Yeah.

No, I've had all the figures checked.

Angela, I can tell you, it's nonsense.

It doesn't matter who you have checked over your numbers,

you can't go from forecasting what you are forecasting and now thinking

Dubai is going to produce that type of profit in year one,

and then particularly £1 million a year profit in year two.

That first year profit is five schools.

It's just not possible.

I've got appointments with people...

You can have as many appointments as you like,

but it's not going to be possible to produce that.

With the experience that you have,

and the knowledge that you currently have,

to go from zero to hero in that one quick step,

thinking that Dubai is going to be your lucky ticket

is where the naivete kicks in, in your business model.

I've been in education since 2005, I know it quite well.

And it's a tough market.

-It is.

-If I run it as a business today, I would lose money.

And I don't think I'm bad at running businesses.

So I say, good look to you, keep going,

there's nothing wrong with having drive and enthusiasm and a vision.

I would just stay at the level of which you are today to grow it

organically. Don't scale this to the levels you want to because you will

run out of cash.

But it's not a business for me to invest in, and I'm out.

Peter Jones doesn't share Angela's optimistic expectations

of her venture into the Middle East.

Is internet mogul Nick Jenkins also concerned that she's biting off more

than she can chew?

I think those numbers are just entirely unrealistic

in the context of how business works.

Whenever you're going into business,

think about it from both sides.

And ask yourself, does this make sense?

Always put yourself in the buyer's seat.

-No, we have, and the figures...

-OK, that didn't require an answer,

that was just a piece of advice.

I hope you will make a good success of what you've done.

-Thank you.

-But I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Angela...

-Yes.

-When you look at a franchise business,

you have to look at the underlying ongoing revenue,

-not the franchise fee revenue.

-Absolutely.

Cos at some point, the franchise fee revenue is going to stop.

And if you think of 30 franchisees at the moment,

you are making 40 or 50 grand.

So let's say we get to 200,

we're looking at a 300 grand revenue.

But we are not because a lot of the recently signed up franchisees,

they haven't had their chance to start making their money yet.

-OK, let's double it.

-Mm-hm.

It's still 600,000.

There's still a really obvious ceiling

on where the business can get to.

So all the best, but I'm out.

The Den's franchising queen declines the deal.

Will global manufacturing tycoon Touker Suleyman be any more willing

to invest in the determined entrepreneur?

What you need is to bring on a partner.

-Do you think?

-Locally, that's very close to you.

My husband is really keen to come on board.

He has got a lot of business experience.

-That's what you need.

-But it's getting the business to a level

where we can afford to bring him in.

From what you are saying,

there's a lot of profit coming through

which will afford your husband.

-Yes, true.

-My advice is, take it slowly,

calculate it,

don't stretch yourself too much or you jeopardise what you've got.

Mm-hm.

So, you probably know what's coming.

-This is not for me.

-Yes.

I've told you what you need, and for that reason, Angela, I'm out.

Phoo!

Encouraging words for the passionate entrepreneur,

but Angela gets none of Touker Suleyman's cash.

Only Deborah Meaden remains.

Will she be a financial shoulder to cry on?

I'm going to tell you where I am.

You did very well.

No, when you got upset.

But you got upset at the moment where you were talking

about support, and that's because you feel lonely.

-I'm doing it again.

-That's because you feel lonely.

I'll bet you every single person in this chair has had those moment of

total loneliness. When you are in business with somebody,

you do sometimes need to spend time together.

When you feel like, "I want to sit down for a cup of tea,

"I just want to work this out."

I don't think we are going to be able to spend

a lot of time together. I've got a lot of other businesses.

-Yes.

-So...

If it had been natural for me, if it had been a natural area,

I think we could probably have overcome that.

But I can't find anything

that is making me feel I could deliver for you,

to be perfectly honest.

So I wish you all the best of luck, but I'm afraid I won't be investing.

I'm out.

-Thank you.

-DRAGONS:

-Good luck.

-Thank you, goodbye.

As she bids the Dragons farewell,

Angela leaves the Den without an investment.

But there is plenty of homework to be getting on with.

She's done well to take it to this level.

She'll get to 70, 90, 100 franchisees even,

where she will be able to manage it.

She should focus here in the UK,

keep going, and when she thinks of Dubai,

consider it a holiday, not a business.

I'm embarrassed at how emotional I got.

It just came out of nowhere.

And, look, I'm still doing it.

I think it's just because it's so close to me heart.

The idea they had of searching for a business partner was a really,

really good one. So I'm just going to sit down with a cuppa,

a blank bit of paper and a pencil and plan it all out.

Still to come, the Dragons are offered a deal they CAN refuse...

In what way would that interest me as an investor?

I think you're going to realise how audacious to come in and to almost

lord that value in front of us.

You've done absolutely the wrong thing here.

You want to offer me something

that my ten-year-old would probably decline.

..and one they wish they hadn't.

If it helps, I'm already regretting going out.

The Dragons have been known to get excited about new technology

that has the potential to solve everyday problems.

But in the Den, the deal needs to be just as enticing as the product.

Now that's a challenge that could face

our next entrepreneurial twosome.

They're here to pitch a tech investment

that is sure to turn heads,

but it may not be for the right reasons.

I think each of us brings a different thing to the company.

We have different kinds of skills and skill sets.

Like business minds and technical side.

I definitely think the biggest challenge when we are in the Den is

probably about the company structure and how the company is organised.

But I think once it is understood,

it should all be fine and straightforward.

But will the Dragons buy into their straightforward business set-up?

Good afternoon, Dragons.

My name is Juma El-Awaisi and this is my colleague, Anwar Almojarkesh.

And we are here today to seek £50,000 of investment

for a 20% share in our company,

a company that has a sole and exclusive right to sell

Braci products in the UK.

Braci is a sound recognition platform that allows users

to convert sounds that happen around them

into visual and sensory notifications.

From this technology,

we've empowered several different applications -

an application that can help people to stop snoring,

an application that can act as a baby monitor,

and an application which helps the deaf,

hard of hearing and elderly to be able to feel safer,

secure and more comfortable in knowing they'd be alerted

to all the different types of sounds that happen in their environments.

If we look at this one market,

there is around one in every six people in the UK

that have some degree of hearing loss.

That's around 10 million.

Globally, that's around 360 million.

So, let's take a real-life situation.

The application already downloaded on this phone.

If we imagine a person who is deaf, sitting in their home,

and their doorbell goes off.

DOORBELL RINGS

The phone will vibrate,

the lights will flash and will show you an on-screen notification,

"doorbell detected," as you can see on the screen.

Plus, the smart watch on my wrist will vibrate and will show me,

"doorbell detected."

What this platform allows you to do is to convert any type of sound

through any type of smart device into any type of notification.

The way that we sell the product is through three main ways.

Online, through the website,

through organisations that have regulatory requirements to provide

assistive technology for people that have a hearing loss,

such as local authorities, and finally,

through retail stores and pharmacies.

We'd be more than happy to demonstrate

more of the products to you. Thank you very much for listening.

A techy pitch without a hitch

for Juma El-Awaisi and Anwar Almojarkesh.

-It's a watch, is it?

-It's just a normal Pebble smart watch.

They are asking for £50,000 in return for a 20% share

in their company that has exclusive rights to sell

the sound recognition converter in the UK.

So what I'm going to do right now is reactivate the doorbell.

DOORBELL RINGS

We can also try with another sound if you'd like, with the smoke alarm.

SMOKE ALARM BEEPS

The product demonstration may have passed muster,

but there's something about the investment deal on offer

that has set alarm bells ringing for Peter Jones.

You started off by saying you've got the licence to this technology.

So this isn't something you two have developed, then?

So we've got another company,

and everything is owned by the other company,

which is in Denmark.

And that company is all focused about creating technology,

developing the technology.

So we've got this UK company that acts as a distribution channel or a

sales channel with the only right to sell in the UK.

Are you offering part of the holding company in Denmark?

You are offering your 20% share in that?

No, it's 20% share in the UK company.

So over there, you're interested in building all the technology,

-new products coming out of it.

-Yeah.

All the real IP and the huge value and...

But you don't want to offer that today.

No, in the future, and we discussed this with the investors,

they would be more than happy if other investors did want to come in

and invest into that company.

You cannot come in here with a technology product

and offer me a distribution deal.

That is absolutely bonkers.

Peter Jones brushes over the product itself and cuts to the chase over

their decision to only offer investment in the UK arm

of their Denmark-based business.

Can Deborah Meaden persuade them to rethink?

What you've done here, you've failed to look at it

from an investor's point of view.

I completely get why you're stood there.

You've got this stuff over here that you've come up with,

that is sitting in Denmark,

and could end up, once you've proved the model,

could end up really valuable.

But you've got to prove the model.

So you think, "Right, who can I get on board to help prove that model?"

Get all that, I get exactly what you are doing.

In what way would that interest me as an investor?

The return on investment in the second and third year,

the expectations we are looking to do,

that by itself is a return on the investment

we would be looking at today.

Yeah... Particularly for me,

I want to be part of something,

not a part of part of parts of something.

Cos I think you misunderstand

the whole investor/business relationship here going on.

Or you think we don't understand it.

I can see clear as a bell why you'd do it,

you haven't thought at all about why I would do it.

The UK company still does hold some IP.

It's not IP-less.

So the IP that is focused in Denmark is focused around the sound

recognition platform around the deaf and hard of hearing product,

and things around that.

So what is the IP that's owned in the new company

that you want to set up?

In this company? It's in relation to things for expanding,

so if we want to develop things in relation to cars,

so things like emergency sirens, police sirens

and various other sounds as well.

Police sirens? So you think I'd be interested in investing

in something...

..with regards to police sirens and horns?

That's kind of the main focus of the investment we are trying to get out

-of.

-Listen, guys, I'm not a mug.

You can't come in here,

pitch the very thing that you are selling and then say,

"By the way,

"the IP sits over here."

You're just asking me to invest in a distributor.

I think the way you are viewing the whole concept

of the company structure itself...

Because what we are trying to do over in that company

is to be able to develop just the technology.

Here, what we're trying to do is develop a market.

No, I DO understand that.

You've got a company, develop the technology,

which is the value,

and you now need to go and open up distribution channels

to take that very thing, which is the technology,

and distribute it around the world.

I get it.

I don't want to be a distributor, there's no value in it.

I'd be a distributor without paying any money.

I want to be in the holding company.

Stalemate in the Den,

as neither side shows any signs of relenting

on their opposing points of view.

Can Nick Jenkins stop this pitch from derailing?

I can see how this is going to go, I put the money in,

and obviously you've only got about 5% of your time to devote to the UK

side because you've got Denmark and all the other countries,

you've got the main company and all the other countries to look after.

It's not a very attractive proposition.

I love investing in people and going on that journey with them,

side-by-side, but I am not interested in running a subsidiary.

I really... The same as Peter,

I don't see you really giving us any...

-anywhere else to go.

-At least for the next year to 18 months,

we would not be expanding into any other market, other than the UK.

That's nice.

You don't want us to have a part of what you think is the valuable part,

you are just offering us a little sales operation in the UK.

It's just not terribly exciting, so I'm out.

An underwhelmed Nick Jenkins is the first Dragon to reject the deal.

And now Peter Jones has finally run out of patience.

You want to offer somebody that has different 28 businesses,

turnover of over a billion, with over 1,000 staff,

that operates in about 170 countries,

you want to try and basically offer me something

that my ten-year-old would probably decline.

And what's funny is the fact I don't really even know

about the technology. I haven't even got there yet.

So, guys, for the fact you are not even willing to discuss ownership in

the technology, I have no interest

in being another "me, too" distributor

and joining you in your journey.

So I'm out.

Hackles raised,

Peter Jones leaves the entrepreneurs in no doubt about his opinion

of their investment proposal.

And now Sarah Willingham is ready to show her hand.

Guys, I think you are going to look back on this

and I think you're going to realise how audacious it was

to come in and ask for investment when the value sits somewhere else,

and to kind of almost lord that value in front of us but say,

"You can't have any of that." It just doesn't work like that.

I really think you are going to have a moment of reflection afterwards

where you think, "We had such a great opportunity

"and we completely blew it."

I'm really sorry, there's not a chance, I am definitely out.

I think you've blown it. I'm not into technology,

so I would definitely be your wrong Dragon.

But I can tell you one thing,

you will look back and say, "Mistake."

I'm not going to invest and I'm out.

Four Dragons have now categorically judged the proposition a nonstarter.

And it's Deborah Meaden who's left to deliver the final verdict on the

deal to distribute their sound detection technology.

I do some work with hearing dogs for the deaf.

So when you started talking, I thought,

"Actually, this is..." You know, not everybody has a dog,

so this is a really cool thing.

But I can't... You've totally wiped me out.

Totally wiped me out. You've done absolutely the wrong thing here.

After, for example, the first year,

we would be willing as well, because at that time,

the first investment would be...

Guys, you've structured it all wrong.

I'm not going to... It's not going to happen.

I'm out.

Thank you.

So it's game over for Juma and Anwar in a pitch that was anything but

straightforward. They leave the Den with nothing but the sound of five

disgruntled Dragons ringing in their ears.

That was just bizarre.

It's about as attractive as drinking milk three months past its date.

I don't think we really regret what happened today.

We can't change the company structure, it is how it is.

At the end of the day, the Dragons have their opinion.

I think they were trying to look at the bigger picture,

but the UK could be the bigger picture.

Our final entrepreneur in the Den tonight,

Andrew Watmuff from Somerset,

is one half of a fresh soup brand.

He and his business body, Michael Beckett,

love their product so much,

they put their own names on the label.

But while Michael is happy to appear on the packaging,

appearing in front of the Dragons is rather less appetising.

We are partners in crime, we're just not partners in crime today.

Beckett is the chef and the genius behind the recipes

and I do the sales and marketing, which is why it's just me.

Will the foodie entrepreneur only do half the job,

or will his solo performance blow the Dragons away?

Hello there. My name is Andrew Watmuff,

and I'm from Watmuff & Beckett,

and we make delicious soups and risottos,

and we are based in Somerset,

here today to ask for £75,000 in return for a 10% stake

in Watmuff & Beckett.

It all started many years ago

when a young Beckett began baking plasticine

in his mum's kitchen,

and a young Watmuff was pestering his grandpa

for a ride on the farmer's tractor.

A real passion for food and farming was born from an early age.

Watmuff and Beckett first met at secondary school.

Fast forward 20 years, and Watmuff & Beckett's soups

and risottos can now be found

at some of the UK's largest and most prestigious food retailers.

Some of these include Whole Foods,

Selfridge's, Ocado, and Asda.

Watmuff & Beckett products are unique because of the way we use

UK farm produce to ready sing through in the end product.

The UK fresh soup market is worth 186 million.

This is growing 15% year on year

as consumers are increasingly turning to fresh soup

because of its superior quality and taste.

We've also developed a range of fresh risottos,

which have now become 50% of our business.

We've also developed relationships

with a tried and tested manufacturing partner,

who not only delivers us stringent quality standards,

but is also capable of delivering a scale as and when required.

I'd love you to try some Watmuff & Beckett soup and risotto.

So I'll bring some over and we can see what you think.

Hoping the Dragons will be bowled over

by his gourmet soups and risottos

is Somerset-based Andrew Watmuff.

He is offering 10% of his fresh food business

in return for a £75,000 investment.

-TOUKER:

-It's excellent.

-It's lovely.

Now Andrew has tickled the Dragons's taste buds,

serial investor Deborah Meaden can't ignore the mystery

of the missing entrepreneur.

-We have the Watmuff in front of us, where's the Beckett?

-OK, yes. Um...

Please don't tell me you've fallen out and he's gone...

No, no. Don't panic, no, no.

You need to put a black line through Beckett and rebrand everything.

Not at all, no. He's not one for the camera.

He's a typical chef. He likes it behind-the-scenes,

but really I was always tasked with the sales and marketing.

And I think that's why we've got on so well, because we both have...

Are you telling me he's bottled it?

No, he didn't bottle it, no, no.

So there is actually a Beckett?

-Yes.

-And you are still friends.

Yes, best of friends.

That's all I was getting at.

Immediately, my first reaction, it comes across more of a sort of...

You look like two cricketers rather than two foodies.

It's a clothing brand name, rather than a food.

Cos it's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it?

I must go and get some of that Watmuff & Beckett soup.

-Yes, yes.

-In Asda.

-Yes, sure.

-It's weird.

Yes, the passions behind the brand were why we named it our surnames,

really, so my family history in farming

and Michael's history as a chef,

and his love of food, really.

And so we saw those two great stories there,

so we decided to use our names.

For Peter Jones,

the branding is more sportswear and suits than freshly made soups.

But with a large supermarket chain already selling the range,

Nick Jenkins is keen to find out more about what's driving sales.

There's two aspects to this.

One is, does the food tastes great? Which it does.

Second thing is, what is it that's going to make me

-take it off the shelf?

-Well, our pea and mint soup, for example.

This one here is the first red tractor soup in the UK.

No-one else has ever done a red tractor chilled soup before.

What's a red tractor soup?

So, a red tractor assured means that it is UK farmed produce.

So because we found a consistent supply of peas that the UK produce,

then we are allowed to put that logo on.

We've been in Asda for three years now, and we've hit, you know,

their rate of sale that they've been asking for, we've...

OK. And what sales are you doing in those doors?

Last year, we turned over about 170,000 in Asda.

-What does the next 12 months look like?

-Yes, 2018,

we've got a turnover of 1.1 million

with a gross of 357,000.

and a net profit of 135,000.

Let me ask another question.

What does the soup sell at compared with their own brand?

That soup sells at around £2.20 to £2.30.

You can buy a fresh soup like that for £1.

It's the most expensive soup in Asda.

Can it be produced at a price that means this can compete?

-Are you confident in that?

-Yes, yeah.

A soupcon of fighting talk from the quietly confident entrepreneur.

But despite his impressive projections,

there is a key ingredient missing

for food specialist Sarah Willingham.

The thing that disappoints me the most

is the reason why I would buy this,

as a consumer, walking down that aisle in the supermarket,

is the fact it's got no preservatives in it, no additives.

There's nothing in this apart from fresh produce.

Well, it's also gluten and wheat free as well.

-So the whole range is...

-Yes, but... I mean,

there's a really small "gluten and wheat free," which...

Fine, but, you know, great,

but there is nothing about this packaging

that would make me take it off the shelves.

The things that sell well in the supermarket are when you

know what they are going to be, because it just tells you here.

It's not an investment for me, so I'm afraid I'm out, but good luck.

Thanks, Sarah.

It's an early exit for Sarah Willingham,

convinced that Andrew's soups and risottos

need a radical rebrand

if they are going to compete in a mass market.

And Deborah Meaden is also ready to take stock.

I think it goes slightly too much towards novelty.

To become a mainstream product,

it needs to get just a little bit more serious, as in,

this comes from a chef, I mean, a proper chef.

We are the experts.

These ingredients are solid through and through,

we know where the peas were grown, and what I'm really worried about,

Andrew, I think you're quite wedded to this, and I understand why.

This has brought you the success so far.

-Yes.

-That's going to make it really hard for you to say, yes,

but there's a bigger market out there.

No, the premise behind the brand is that we want to grow it,

we want more people to eat produce that is grown in this country,

and people want to be able to go to a supermarket and buy something and

they know it's from this country.

I'm not totally convinced that you believe that.

I do, totally. I do, totally.

I do, totally. That's where my passion is.

Yes, but I think there's things you're wedded to.

-OK.

-I'm out.

-All right.

The branding continues to bristle

as Deborah Meaden becomes the second Dragon out.

Will Peter Jones,

who turned a Den's sauce investment into a supermarket staple,

be prepared to take on the challenge?

I think you've gone very elitist.

And I think you've gone quite premium.

-Right.

-That means you've really restricted your market.

And on top of that, if you want to build a major brand,

Watmuff & Beckett could be perhaps your holding company.

-Right.

-Cos I know you love that name,

and you are two friends that have come together.

Perhaps that's the name of your business.

I don't think it should be the name of your product.

-Right.

-Which means you're also into brand development.

Which means that it needs serious capital.

I mean, serious money, to make this and build it.

OK.

I'm clearly not your investor, I'm not the one you'd be looking for.

So I'm going to say that I'm out.

Andrew.

We get a lot of people in the Den,

and they go as far as Whole Foods and the specialists,

and they can't go beyond.

But you've taken it one step further.

You've actually gone to Asda, it is very commendable.

Yes, I mean, 95% of the UK groceries are bought in supermarkets.

We couldn't ignore them as a customer.

But at the end of the day, I think, am I the right Dragon for you?

I don't think I am.

It's not an area I'm good at.

I don't think I'm going to add value to you.

And for that reason, I'm not going to invest in you.

-But you are very credible.

-Thank you.

-And I'm out.

With four Dragons rejecting the deal,

Andrew's pitch is in hot water,

and only Nick Jenkins can bail him out.

But it seems he's still chewing things over.

You're underselling the story.

How strong is this idea of using UK farm produce?

That's what I'd love to do.

I mean, I'd love to farm produce to put into a Watmuff & Beckett soup,

that would be an absolute dream for me.

You could definitely do more with that story.

If you say, this could have represented the things that are

really exciting about your business better...

-Yes.

-Then that would be helpful to hear.

Yes. That is totally what I want to do.

That's really what I want to get across.

I totally agree with that.

If it helps, I'm already regretting going out, Nick.

But I have, and that's the rules of the Den, so...

And I love the idea of small businesses that focus

on UK farm produce.

Do you know, I think I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to make you an offer for all the money, but I'd need 20%,

I'm afraid.

-OK.

-And the reason I say that is because a lot of businesses

that get to where you are now

and then they just don't get much further.

There is a huge risk of that.

With the percentages, would you, for example,

if we got some turnover targets that I discussed,

can I buy it back at the same price?

If you got to those turnover targets,

if you hit that 1.1 million figure, and more to the point,

if you hit the profit figure,

then...

..I'd sell you back half the shares

for the price I originally paid for them.

Definitely. Thank you very much, Nick.

-DEBORAH:

-Brilliant!

-Thank you.

He may have had to give up twice as much of his company as he

-wanted to...

-Thank you.

-Well done.

But Watmuff heads back to Beckett with a new millionaire backer

and a recipe for business success.

I'm still waiting for my heart rate to drop.

But I'm really excited, really pleased.

-Well done, Nick.

-I'm a bit jealous.

Watmuff, Beckett and Jenkins. Quite a ring to it.

Beckett is going to be really excited.

"Souper" excited, should I say?

The Den is certainly a place to keep a cool head,

but tonight we've had some particularly emotional scenes.

Tears, consternation from the Dragons and of course elation,

restrained elation from Andrew Watmuff.

Good luck to him and the elusive Michael Beckett in their new Dragon

partnership, whatever they decide to call the company.

Whoa!

Don't help him up, don't help him up.

Coming up next time...

You've come in with the most ludicrous, ridiculous valuation.

It's never going to happen.

I think you've done great. I'm going to make you an offer.

I don't think your branding is strong at all.

Not terribly exciting, is it?

-That's a genius idea.

-Genius idea.

-You are hired.

-That is a genius idea.

That's for free. That's Touker time.

The quality of what you've put together is first class.

As an ambassador for your brand, spot-on.

You've heard a lot of good things said to you.

I'm going to tell you what I think. I hate it.