Episode 6 Dragons' Den

Tonight on Dragons' Den...

There's a grave.

You're now two foot in the grave.

Have you come here for investment or counselling?

I feel very, very conflicted.

I have to come clean, I'm also very conflicted.

And would you believe it, I think I'm conflicted.

You CAN produce it.

-Yes.

-But the point is that nobody wants it.

As a brand, I love it...and I'm going to make you an offer.

Welcome to Dragons' Den -

a place of aspiration and perspiration where entrepreneurs

with big business dreams meet our wealthy investors,

who have big cash to invest.

First to enter the Den is Ranjit Sohal,

a retired college lecturer from Wolverhampton

who isn't ready to put his feet up just yet.

I'm a workaholic.

Time has no meaning in my head.

I'm likely to get up at three o'clock in the morning

if something's bugging me.

Our product is so simple.

It's simpler than simple.

If one of the Dragons was to come on board,

I think that it will become a success.

There's no doubt in my mind.

Hello, Dragons.

My name's Ran Sohal.

I'm the managing director of MAGi-led UK Ltd.

We specialise in unique LED lighting,

and I'm here today to ask for £50,000

for an equity stake of 15%.

Conventional downlights are bulky, labour-intensive...

..but beyond that, there are some real serious installation issues.

First of all, all downlights,

they have these butterfly clips.

In order to install the downlight into the ceiling cavity,

you have to force that and immediately you will end up causing

some damage to yourself.

Secondly, in order to hold the lamp in place,

you have to have a tension spring.

This spring is an electrician's nightmare.

As soon as you install that spring, it tends to fly off.

So the electrician will spend some time looking for it.

Our product is nothing like that.

It's a plug. It's a plug that you insert into the ceiling.

It is very, very easy to pull out.

It is fairly easy to install.

In terms of its safety, in terms of compliance,

it will far outweigh anything that a conventional downlight will do.

Thank you for listening.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Hoping his product - a fuss-free silicone housing

for recessed lighting -

can spark an offer from the Dragons

is self-proclaimed workaholic Ranjit Sohal.

They are all available in different colours.

-Thank you.

-He's offering a 15% slice of his company

in return for a £50,000 investment.

Retail king Touker Suleyman

wants to shed a bit more light on the product.

Ran, my name is Touker.

You seem to be very knowledgeable...

-..in this sector.

-Yes.

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

I'm a physicist.

Most of my life I spent in education,

but the last seven, eight years,

I've been developing my products.

OK. What is MAGi-led?

MAGi-led, it stands, actually, for

Magnetic Applied Global ingenious lighting environmental design.

-Wow!

-But for the rest of the world, it's a lighting and heating company.

So, we are talking about, this is plastic, we're talking about this.

-Yes.

-Just one item.

That... There are... There are actually...

In reality, there are three.

-There is what I call the vertical flexi-led...

-Right.

..that will give you light clearly in the straight down.

The one that you have there is what I call slanted,

so if we had your portrait and we wanted to put some light on it,

that would be the purpose of that,

particularly for shop accent lighting.

OK, so this, you can just take out, paint,

put it on and take it out any time?

Yes. Our total design is... I believe it's near-perfect.

A bright start for the West Midlands entrepreneur.

But the colour scheme is making Nick Jenkins see red.

When was the last time you ever saw a multicoloured light fitting

on sale in a shop?

-I mean, look at that thing over there.

-Yes.

That thing, the pink one, it's pink silicon.

It would look more at home in Ann Summers.

What? When did you last go into Ann Summers?

That's another story altogether, Peter, that's another story.

But, I mean... But... It's...

Why would anybody want a luminous pink light fitting?

-There's just no market for it.

-Any colour that is available in the

marketplace, we can produce any lamp to any colour.

I know you can. No, look, Ran, you can produce it.

-Yes.

-But the point that you don't understand is that nobody wants it.

I don't know, I'd quite like a pink light fitting in...

That's your problem.

..in a room that's pink. You know...

LAUGHTER

Ranjit, I think your product is innovative.

-Yes.

-It's clearly very quick installation.

I like it.

But to be honest, the big issue with your product is actually that.

The template to the cut-out hole?

The most important factor of a spotlight is its flash mounting

-capabilities.

-Yes.

So when you aesthetically look up you don't see slight gaps between

the ceiling board and the light.

-Yes.

-And even here with a piece of card...

and look, I'm not playing with it, I'm not... You can see gaps.

Peter, please feel free to check every one of these.

We've had the correct cut out holes, you're looking at a very thin paper.

Now, these cut holes have been cut correctly and there are a number

-of models here.

-Yeah, they have,

but none of them have been done with plasterboard.

The reason why I didn't, because it would crack and fall apart...

Exactly!

..in your hand, no, in your hand I felt that because of the mess it

-would make there...

-Ran,

when you're demonstrating a product you need to demonstrate a product

in the environment of which it's going to be installed.

-Yes.

-And I understand, it looks pretty, the colours look great.

The only thing missing - you need a clamp.

Tech tycoon Peter Jones has yet to be convinced that Ran's product

is better than a conventional spotlight casing.

Deborah Meaden has successful investments

in DIY and the building trade.

Can she see it selling in the big stores?

I'm the sparky in the house.

My husband's terrified of electricity.

I don't know what happened to him as a child, I change all of our bulbs.

And there's two issues with this.

One is, the silver clip, which is the easy clip,

where you just put your finger in, pull the little silver thing,

the bulb drops down, switch the bulb, up it goes again.

I don't think that's fiddly.

And secondly, as we move across to LED,

you change your lights less often.

Now, you know, the halogens used to blow for a pastime.

-Agreed.

-You know, and every time I walked into the house, you know,

10% of the bulbs would be down.

Now, we've got LEDs.

-Yes.

-And because we're all going LED,

I'm never going to touch that light bulb again.

I'm happy to accept...

If it's a valid point, I'll accept it, but I...

My experience is not the same.

The entrepreneur and Deborah Meaden fail to see eye to eye on whether

long-lasting LED bulbs could soon be the death of Ranjit's

business ambitions.

Sarah Willingham's stepped into the shoes of the consumer,

and it appears she's not buying it either.

Ranjit, you've done such a good job trying to convince everybody but

nobody's even moved a millimetre and it's going to be really difficult

to persuade the consumer with this product on a shelf.

I would be perfectly willing to step aside and let the marketeers

-take it over.

-The thing is, is that's not what we do,

we don't come into a business and just run the marketing department,

you know, we invest in people that can take it to the next stage.

So, I'm not going to invest.

I'm afraid I'm out.

Thank you.

Sarah Willingham takes a dim view of the lighting product

and leaves the negotiations.

Dot-com impresario Nick Jenkins has been scrutinising the packaging

and something's caught his eye.

You say that you're "An innovative company that designs, develops

"and manufactures solid-state, energy-efficient lighting."

-Yes.

-Now, do you have a factory?

Yes, what we... No, we do not manufacture, what we...

Well, you just said... This says that,

"MAGi-led is an innovative company that designs,

"develops and manufactures."

-Yes.

-So, you don't manufacture?

Under our branding, we design, we get...

We ensure our products conform to European legislation and then we go

to different manufacturers and we simply give them the...

OK, so, so...

Do you or do you not manufacture?

We do not manufacture,

we do assemble some of our products ourselves.

Then why do you say on your box you "design, develop and manufacture"?

Why did you put the word on it?

I'm not a marketeer.

-No.

-I'm not a marketeer.

It's just not investable.

So, I'm sorry but I'm out.

Another opportunity blown as Nick Jenkins joins Sarah Willingham

and declares himself out.

Only three Dragons remain.

Has Deborah Meaden seen the light?

Ran, I would love to think that we'd sell some of these,

they'd go in the ceiling, everybody would go "wow!"

-Wow.

-"That's brilliant."

-Mm-hm.

And if I believed that,

I would be sitting here and making you an offer.

However, I can't make you an offer, I'm really sorry, Ran.

I accept.

I totally accept.

-I won't be investing.

-We have...

-I know you want to stop me saying those two words.

-Oh, no, no.

-If, if the products...

-No, let me just say those two words.

I won't be investing, Ran.

I'm out.

Ranjit, the light fitting is incredibly well-designed.

Thank you.

But I do wish that you'd brought in some plasterboard so we could have

actually seen the product for real.

-Yes.

-Because that's the application in which this product is going to be

-sitting.

-Of course.

I'm going to say that I'm out.

A double Dragon rejection as Peter Jones and Deborah Meaden

end their interest.

Only Touker Suleyman now remains.

Has he had a light-bulb moment?

Ran.

I think you're great.

I can only say thank you.

I like the product.

I love the colours.

I could see this selling in IKEA.

Have you shown these to anybody...

..and have you had any reaction from anybody?

We have done a great deal of research including architects,

including electricians,

and the response has been very, very positive.

Have you got any retailer who might have seen it and said,

"we want to buy some right away, when will you have some?"

No, because it is not in the marketplace.

But I have absolutely no doubt, none whatsoever, we will sell.

No, no. But, Ran, I'm in no position to take that risk.

I know nothing about the electrical industry.

-Yes.

-I cannot help you with marketing.

And because I can't give you what you're looking for, it's a risk.

-So, therefore...

-We are looking for marketing, marketing, marketeer.

I'm afraid I'm not going to invest and I'm out.

Well, thank you, sir, it's very kind of you.

A final rejection from Touker Suleyman.

-Thank you.

-And the enigmatic entrepreneur exits the Den without

the £50,000 investment he was hoping for.

Such a shame he didn't bring plasterboard in to demonstrate

the product properly.

Our product was about innovation, our product was about progress.

It was about the future, and I think somehow that got lost,

and perhaps that was my weakness.

Next to face the Dragons are proud parents Lauren and Mark Taylor.

Everything that we're doing with the business is all about doing it

for our own children. They're at the heart of everything we do.

And it's their skincare product for the booming baby care market

that they're here to pitch.

We get people telling us we've changed their lives.

It feels more than a business to us.

It feels like a passion.

But will the Dragons show equal passion for an investment?

Hello, Dragons.

I'm Lauren and this is my husband Mark.

And we're here today to offer you 10% of our business,

Kokoso Skin Limited, in exchange for a £50,000 investment.

Our product is Kokoso Baby, a premium quality,

100% natural and organic coconut oil, specially selected

for head-to-toe infant skin care.

Kokoso Baby was born out of a desire to care for our daughter's skin

in the most natural way possible.

As a new mum, I was one of the 89% of parents worried about

the potentially harmful chemicals in mainstream baby toiletries.

So I did my research and discovered the many topical benefits of

raw, virgin coconut oil.

So, when we started the business, we made it our mission to source

the highest grade coconut oil we could find.

We're currently selling on our website,

in independent baby boutiques and in Boots stores throughout the UK.

There are 700,000 babies born in the UK alone every year, and the trend

in baby toiletries is moving towards premium, natural and organic,

just like Kokoso Baby.

Thank you for your time.

Would you like to try the product?

A well-oiled pitch from parents-cum-business partners

Lauren and Mark Taylor.

A little goes a long way.

They're hoping £50,000 of Dragon investment...

Lovely.

..for a 10% stake will propel their infant skin care range into

a must-have product for baby.

News that they're already stocked in one high-street retailer

has caught the attention of Nick Jenkins.

Lauren, Mark, I'm Nick.

-BOTH:

-Hi, Nick.

You're stocked in Boots?

Yeah.

Tell me about some numbers.

We launched in 200 stores

and they're doubling the number of stores to 400.

OK, going up to 400.

And you sold - how much have you sold in those 200 stores

in the last 12 months?

In the last 12 months, 9,000 since we launched in June.

-9,000?

-9,000 units.

Unit. So, what's that in pounds?

That would be about...

18...

About £20,000.

I was sort of hoping you were going to say more than that.

How many stores have they got in total?

Well, they only have a certain amount with baby sections.

OK, but how many have they got with baby section?

-There's about 800.

-800 with baby sections.

If you extrapolate that up and you say, well, wow, imagine,

we can get into the biggest chemist in the country and they've got

800 stores, and that would just be amazing and transformational

for the business.

But if that turned into sort of £80,000 worth of business,

that wouldn't be transformational, really, would it?

No.

Your product has sold less than one of these per store, per week.

-Genuinely, that is not good.

-Well...

So, what's gone wrong?

I mean, they don't, Boots themselves don't see it that way.

We haven't really done it with any marketing, so when we...

The whole idea of having a retail store is that you put things in it

that people, hopefully, will buy.

As I said, just by offering a promotion for two weeks,

we doubled sales and they stayed at that level for the next four months.

But they're doubling the number of stores we're in from next month,

and that's got to be for a reason...

Well, that means that you're going to be moving about 90...

..per store per year.

I guess if that, yeah, that average, yeah.

That's really bad.

Not the best of starts for Lauren and Mark as they're forced to defend

their moderate high-street sales.

Deborah Meaden is a prime player in the organic market.

Does she forecast a more profitable future?

I love the smell, you know, and the purity of it is really lovely.

-Yeah, it is, yeah.

-Because, one of the things I constantly say is,

"don't put things on your children's skin

"that you wouldn't put in their mouth."

-Yeah, that's exactly it.

-Because our skin absorbs exactly the same things

that we do when we eat, you know, and you can't get purer than that.

Unfortunately, I feel very, very conflicted.

Because I've actually invested in a toiletries range.

We're looking to spread out to creams, you know.

I couldn't talk about this as, you know, the ultimate product

-and then talk about that as the ultimate, you know...

-Yeah.

-..the one that I'm already involved in.

-Yeah.

So, I might as well say now, you know, sadly, for those reasons,

I'm going to have to declare myself out.

A previous Den investment in a skincare range for children

leaves a conflicted Deborah Meaden unable to do business,

and she's the first Dragon out.

Is mum-of-four Sarah Willingham more inclined to pursue a deal?

In terms of putting raw organic coconut oil on your kids,

I think it is completely the future, the way forward.

It's been the single product that I've put on my kids' eczema

-that's had the biggest success.

-Yeah.

But I also have to come clean,

I'm also very conflicted.

Because I have just invested in a raw organic coconut oil business

that is extremely good quality.

It's not yet in skincare but the actual product is exactly the same,

so I'm afraid I'm going to have to declare myself out as well.

Can I tell you where I'm at? My hands are just slightly,

slightly forced as I have realised that I'm conflicted because

I am actually a joint investor with Sarah.

So, it would be very odd of me to make you an offer.

I'm afraid I can't invest, so I'm out.

A further blow as Sarah Willingham and Nick Jenkins also

find themselves hamstrung by a conflicting Den investment.

Which means high-street retailer Touker Suleyman has a chance

to take advantage of the situation.

You've lost Dragons cos they're conflicted.

-Yeah.

-They're in a similar business, so there must be something in it.

-Yeah.

-Right? You've got a brand.

-Mm-hm.

-You're in Boots,

one step ahead of the competition.

You've gone past that initial hurdle.

The real question is,

is this a business that can grow?

The way we see it is we've got the coconut oil as the hero product,

-this is what does all the good.

-Right.

All the other products that we can then bring into that to produce

a range all revolve around this one hero product,

so it's really looking at the potential, where we want to be,

and having a Dragon to make sure that we can scale to that level

and be in the everyday baby market.

You're saying that you want to compete with the big boys?

Yeah.

You realise once you're in that arena, your margin gets squeezed,

you're not selling much...

..you'll just get eaten alive.

Touker Suleyman is worried that as the entrepreneurs' business expands,

their profit margins will come under pressure.

Can Peter Jones see a more favourable prospect

for an investment?

This is quite sad, isn't it? You've got three people

that are conflicted, you've got Touks still in...

..and would you believe it...

..I think I'm conflicted.

Because I own 30% of Truly Holly Baby,

which is Holly Willoughby's company.

- Oh. - Oh, right, OK.

And we are bringing out a range of creams and everything's organic,

everything is natural.

So, four out of five Dragons are conflicted...

..which is probably the first time

I've ever known this to happen in the Den.

I, clearly, am not going to go and invest in this.

-I'm out.

-OK.

Thank you.

An unprecedented turn of events in the Den sees four Dragons declare

a conflict of interest that prevents a profitable partnership.

Retail giant Touker Suleyman is now the husband-and-wife duo's only hope

for an investment.

But will he be prepared to risk his cash

in a business that would put him in direct competition

with all four of his fellow Dragons?

When I look at your numbers and I look at where you're at,

you've probably got hardly anything in the bank.

-Correct?

-Yeah.

What do you want from a Dragon?

What doors do you want open?

Or is it just the money you want cos you're desperate for money?

No, no, not at all.

We have a vision of where we can take it and what other products

we can bring in that are more mainstream.

No, you didn't answer my question.

What would you expect from me?

Just an overview business strategy, really.

Just an overview of where we want to be and make sure we could get there

from someone that's scaled a business and can see what pitfalls

we might fall into, make sure we don't fall into them.

As a business, there's not much there.

-At the moment, yeah.

-At the moment.

However, I admire what you've done and...

I'm thinking.

As a brand, I love it.

And I'm going to make you an offer.

Thank you.

I think you are going to need quite a bit of mentoring...

..in the business world,

I'd probably help you out with your website,

help you out to see where you want to go with this.

And I'm going to want a bit more percentage, I'm afraid.

Yeah?

And I'd want 30% of the business.

For 50 grand.

OK. Shall we go and have a think about it?

Yes. We're just going to have a chat.

All right.

Finally an offer,

but Touker Suleyman's equity demand of 30% is three times the 10%

that Lauren and Mark wanted to give away.

Do you want to say 25?

Well, we did say we wouldn't go above that, didn't we?

It's the entrepreneurs' turn to be conflicted.

I would have gone for 40.

They're going to come back with a second my offer.

-I think this needs a lot of work.

-It needs a lot of work.

What about the option to go down?

I don't really want to get into that.

Will they do a deal or walk away?

I think you've put us in a slightly difficult position because

we did say we wouldn't go above 25%.

Have you got any room to come down?

I won't come down, but I'll put it this way to you.

When I get my money back, I'll give you back the 5%.

-OK.

-For free.

-OK.

I've got a very good team behind me, and we'll help you on a daily basis.

That sounds amazing.

Thank you.

- We'd like to accept your offer. - Thank you, yeah.

-Good.

-Oh, fantastic.

Great, thanks very much, Touker, really.

-Thank you so much.

-We will definitely make a go of this.

It takes a brave entrepreneur

to negotiate with the last Dragon standing.

-OK, thank you so much.

-I'm excited about it.

-Thank you.

-They've given away 30% of their business,

but with an agreement that Touker Suleyman will give back

5% of the business when he recoups his initial investment.

Ecstatic, couldn't be happier.

They were sort of dropping like flies at one point.

Congratulations, Touker.

Thank you. I love the product, I love the branding,

it could only go one way.

Also hoping to cash in on the baby-boom in the Den

was Lorna Edwards from Clackmannanshire,

with her baby-friendly balloon business.

The Bubabloon is a fabric cover for balloons,

which makes them safe for babies from four months of age onwards.

Three blows should do it.

Lorna was asking for a £50,000 investment

for a 20% share of the business.

It's bouncy like a football and floats like a balloon.

Sarah Willingham did her best to get the ball rolling.

Hi, Lorna, thank you.

There's always one in the room.

There's always...

Peter Jones was keen to check the robustness of the product

with his usual care and attention.

-Hey up! Oh!

-I just wanted to see whether it would bang.

Actually, there's a good point in not blowing it.

-I'm having fun.

-Plenty of laughs in the Den,

but Sarah Willingham was struggling to see the point.

So, why would you not have a beachball?

This is something a bit more fun,

and it actually doubles up as a nose wiper and bum wiper, as well.

If you're looking for something to use in an emergency.

You can't do that with a beachball.

Did you just say a bum wipe?

That didn't sell it to me, if I'm being completely honest.

Peter Jones was starting to see some potential in the product.

You can do quite a lot with it, can't you?

It's even better fun if you take one of the big ones,

-they really have a lot of fun.

-Oh, fantastic.

And he got to road test his signature Den one-liners.

I don't want to burst your balloon, Laura,

but I've got a funny feeling you're going to be deflated after this.

You're full of hot air, you know that, don't you?

Finally, it was left to Nick Jenkins to let the entrepreneur

and the product down gently.

-I'm out.

-Thank you for your time.

That was quite fun, to be fair.

Still to come...

animal antics...

Sit, good!

..dogged defiance...

What does it cost you?

That's not something I'm happy to go on television.

..and bold claims.

There's a lot more work to do,

but the things we're aiming for are massive.

I mean, it's changing pet care.

Next to enter the Den is the somewhat anxious

former Merchant Navy officer John Bull from Somerset.

I'm quite a quiet chap.

Having to do any sort of performance in terms of presentation,

I find difficult.

John left the Merchant Navy to go it alone as a product designer.

But the prospect of facing the Dragons

has left him feeling all at sea.

I have met challenges like this before,

but walking into the Den is something that has been

approaching me with an increasing sense of terror.

Hello, Dragons. My name is John Bull, and today,

I'd like to invite you to invest £50,000

in exchange for a 20% share in my product,

the plinth tablet stand.

Over the last five years,

I have tried all sorts of cases and covers and stands,

and I've never found one that met all of my requirements in terms of

pocketability, stability,

versatility, and speed.

So I set out to design one which does.

Here it is. I call it Plinth.

As you can see, it's extremely small,

it's only ten millimetres thick,

and it weighs less than 50g.

It deploys instantly...

..into a very stable stand,

that you can use with any model of tablet or smartphone.

It offers five positions - for example,

ideal for in the kitchen,

following a recipe or what have you -

all the way up to...

..a vertical position, ideal for watching movies

or looking at photos.

I'm having considerable success now selling Plinth through e-commerce,

both on Amazon and through the My Plinth website.

Although my business is now moving into profit,

with your help and expertise,

we could go there a lot further and faster than I can on my own.

So I've got some samples, which you might like to have a play with.

Taking a stand in the Den is product designer

and business one man band John Bull.

Would you like to choose a colour?

He's overcome his stage fright to get through his pitch

and offer up 20% of his tablet-stand company for a £50,000 investment.

Thanks very much.

Will the former Merchant Navy Officer's business idea

sink or swim?

Suited and booted Peter Jones has a sartorial query to kick things off.

John. What's the tattoo?

I was an officer in the Merchant Navy for eight years

before embarking on my design career.

And I didn't want to be in a suit.

Oh, why's that, what's wrong with a suit?

Uh... Nothing is wrong with a suit, Peter.

-I'm pleased you said that, John.

-But it's not me.

I wanted you to see me as me.

I believe I've got a thumping good product here.

My customers tell me I've got a thumping good product here.

And I have had a really, really difficult last two years,

moving from a place where I was designing something,

which, in many ways, looking back now, was the easy bit.

Actually trying to find a market, I have found very challenging.

I can see that, but have you come here for investment or counselling?

The entrepreneur is reminded in no uncertain terms that the Den

is no place for a hard-luck story.

Touker Suleyman wants to get the pitch back on track.

John. Touker.

-Yes, sir.

-How many have you sold?

About 8,000 so far.

And what did you sell last month?

About 1,000, I think.

What does it sell for?

It retails at £14.95 for the standard one.

-£14.95?

-Mm-hm.

Cost?

What, the manufacturing cost?

Yeah, what does it cost you?

Er...

Er, that's not something I'm happy to go on television.

Really? But I thought you were here for an investment?

Yes, I'd be very happy to discuss that, but that's a commercially...

I think that's a commercially sensitive....

But I might well say I'm out before we discuss it.

-Yeah.

-How am I supposed to know if it's profitable?

The margin, I can tell you the margins that I'm making,

-if that's helpful.

-OK, gross margin.

£4.

What sales price do you need to sell it at to get a £4 gross margin?

£14.95 is the retail price...

-Including VAT?

-..is the retail price including VAT.

Right. So take 20% off that.

Yeah, so that brings it down to £12.50.

-£12.50.

-Yeah.

-What price do you sell to the distributor at?

About £6.50.

-And you make

-£4? Yeah.

So your cost price for the product is £2.50.

It's... It's in that area, yeah.

Wasn't that difficult, John, was it?

No, it's not that... No, no, granted.

Guarded answers from the entrepreneur

lead to a tense early exchange with the Dragons

over his reluctance to divulge his margins.

Now Sarah Willingham wants to get to the bottom

of John's moderate online sales.

As a consumer, if I'm going in and I'm Googling,

-or I want to find "best tablet stand"...

-Mm-hm.

..I assume you don't even feature.

I'm either on page one or at the top of page two of Google.

I'm flabbergasted by that.

You see, you're selling 1,000 units per month.

Yeah.

How many of those have come through those searches?

-Very, very few.

-But when somebody goes into Google,

-you come up the first page?

-Yeah.

That doesn't... It doesn't stack up.

The problem is that there are a lot of stands.

Yes.

And trying to make your product

-stand out against the rest of those...

-Yes.

..is going to be really, really, REALLY tough.

Which is why I'm here, because this is what you guys are good at.

-But there has to be...

-And I am clearly not.

No, I completely agree with you, but I'm a businessperson,

not a magician.

Doubts over whether the Plinth can hold its own

in a crowded marketplace are proving difficult to shake off.

The Dragons may have conjured up some lucrative business deals

in their time, but will Nick Jenkins offer up the money

and the marketing magic that John needs?

The product looks fine, but my problem is that

-I like investing in people.

-Yes.

I like investing in people and helping them go on their journey to

become great entrepreneurs. And I think you're a great designer,

I think the packaging and everything is absolutely fine but I just don't

feel that you're going to be able to take my advice and then run with it

in six months or a year's time,

and then I can leave you to get on with it.

I don't feel I'd be creating a business that I could walk away from

fairly soon. And so, I'm afraid, for that reason, I'm out.

Nick Jenkins calls time on the tablet stand

and becomes the first Dragon to leave the negotiations.

And it appears that Sarah Willingham has made up her mind.

Honesty, I think it's going to be really difficult,

because there are so many tablet stands.

And it's very, very difficult to stand out.

Yeah.

If I'm being completely honest,

I think that you would need a LOT of time,

I really do.

So for those reasons, it's not an investment opportunity for me,

-I'm afraid, so I'm out.

-OK.

-But good luck.

-All right, Sarah, thank you.

Another Dragon overboard as the ex-Merchant Navy man's

business proposition also fails to win over Sarah Willingham.

Which way will Touker Suleyman go?

You are a talented designer.

Thank you.

The good thing that you said was that you're now into profit.

Yeah. We have had several, er...

..problems with production,

and we've had machinery breakdowns and that type of thing.

Then I had stock, but I was finding it very difficult to sell them.

Oh, really?

John, there is a grave, you're now two foot in the grave.

I mean, you're digging your grave.

-Why?

-Well, you're looking for investment.

-Yeah.

But all you've given me is just the things that have gone wrong.

I'm not going to invest today. I'm out.

OK. Thank you, Touker.

John, I think this is a really nicely made product.

-Yeah.

-I love your packaging.

-Yeah.

-I love the whole piece.

I still don't think you're going to sell a lot of them.

It's not going to be as big as you think it's going to be,

and for an investor,

the opportunity, I don't think is going to be big enough.

-OK.

-So I'm really sorry, John, but I won't be investing.

-I'm out.

-That's OK, thank you.

John's last hope in the Den is tech giant Peter Jones.

Is he ready to throw the entrepreneur a lifeline?

Can I just say, I see a lot of these products,

and I think the product is exceptional.

-Thank you.

-I have not seen something as well designed,

with the intricacies that you've got

and the level of design that's gone into that,

I don't think I've seen many things as good.

Thank you.

But most people with iPads or with tablets, they buy covers,

or a cover accessory.

And typically, those covers are

made well enough to give you a stand.

-Yes.

-As you know.

-Yes.

So I don't think you're going to sell a lot of them.

And there's not going to be a volume enough for an investor to make

-any money on it.

-OK.

-OK.

-It's not for me, John. I'm going to say that I'm out.

OK, thank you.

Praise for the product, but in the end,

the tablet stand business just didn't stack up for the Dragons.

John leaves the Den with nothing.

Great product, small potential.

Yeah.

To me, it's a highly investable product,

I think it's a pity that they didn't run with that.

But an entrepreneur gets right back up, so I'm having a good go at it.

Next into the Den is Cambridge engineering graduate Andrew Nowell.

He's combined his passion for all things techie

and all things doggy, and come up with a business he believes

will take the pet care world by storm.

Good girls!

Bramble, sit. Sit.

Hazel, sit.

Our valuation may be high,

but an incredible amount of work has gone into the product.

Good girls. There's four founders to the business,

and between us we've got over 50 years of developing products.

Hazel, Bramble, come.

We've got to show the Dragons our ambition -

we don't want to be a £10 million company,

we want to be a £100 million company,

and that is definitely achievable.

I bet the Dragons are thinking, what's coming in?

I know! I know.

OK, Hazel, Bramble, what's this?

Sit, sit.

Go through. Yes, Hazel, come!

Come, Hazel. Ready, Hazel?

Weave, come on. Good, Hazel, up!

-Yes. Sit.

-Hooray! Well done.

-Amazing.

-Well done, Hazel.

Bramble, up! Bramble, jump!

Bramble, up! Good dog!

Before you say anything, there's my money!

-You've got dogs, there's my money!

-LAUGHTER

Sit. Come.

- Thank you, Janey. - Thanks.

Come on, girls.

Dragons, I'm Andrew Nowell from PitPat.

And I'm here today to ask for £150,000

in return for 7.5% of the company.

Our goal at PitPat is simple. It's to improve pet care with technology.

Wearable devices have revolutionised how we keep fit and exercise,

and the pet tech revolution is not far behind.

The amazing Hazel and Bramble have just been demonstrating our first

product - an activity monitor for dogs.

So, how does it work?

Essentially, it's like a canine Fitbit.

You'll see there's a small lightweight device which is attached

to their collars, and it's constantly measuring their motion.

And the advanced algorithms can tell the difference between walking,

running, resting and playing.

All of this data is then synced to a free app on your phone.

So the first thing you do is set up a profile for your dog.

And then from this, it looks up a guideline tailored to your dog.

So, looking at the history, you get a breakdown of the activities.

And this is great for if you've ever been apart from your dog, so, say,

for example, if you asked your kids to take the dogs out,

did they actually do it? Or you've put your dog into kennels,

did they exercise them or did they leave them in?

There's four founders to the business, and what we're doing

at PitPat has the ability to change pet care forever,

and we'd like to welcome a Dragon into our pack.

Bramble, basket.

A pitch with the cute factor from engineering graduate Andrew Nowell.

Can I not have mine delivered by a dog?

Unfortunately we don't have enough dogs!

He's asking for £150,000 for just 7.5% of his business

selling canine activity monitors.

Thank you.

The young entrepreneur has put a £2 million valuation on the

business, but can his small invention

deliver on such big ambition?

-Come on, then.

-Nick Jenkins is first to take the lead with the questions.

This, on the surface of it, looks like a really interesting product,

and I bought a dog device, a dog tracking device for my dog.

Brilliant, except that it doesn't work unless there's 4G.

So I was a little bit disappointed by the technical aspects.

-Yeah.

-What I would love to understand is the practicality of

what this needs in order for it to work seamlessly.

So, there's some incredible innovation which has gone into

the product to address some of the challenges you raised.

So, GPS products, you have to recharge them.

Our product's got a battery life of a year,

so you can leave it on the collar all the time.

And this is unheard of for a wearable device.

People will tolerate recharging their own wearables,

they won't tolerate charging a pet wearable.

So, the device is constantly storing all the data away.

To actually sync it to your phone,

you have to press the button on the device,

and then it transfers all the data to the phone over Bluetooth.

So, this, regardless of mobile signal, regardless of wireless,

this will work and record whatever is going on with my dog,

for a whole week or two weeks when I'm away on holiday?

-Ten days.

-And I get back and find out that my dog has been

-properly looked after.

-Yeah.

OK.

A solid start for the entrepreneur as a gadget-loving Nick Jenkins

warms to the product's capabilities.

But Peter Jones needs convincing on how unique Andrew's technology is.

What is the specific IP that you believe that you've got?

So, it's how to do the measurement at low power.

No, no, no, but it's simple technology.

So what have you got in terms of your IP?

-That's worth £2 million?

-It's actually having the product, ready,

-on the market.

-That's nonsense,

what's the IP that you own that's valuable?

I would say it is the position the business is in,

and all the work which has gone into it,

and the opportunities we're bringing to the table.

You've come in here with the most ridiculous valuation,

at £2 million.

Yes.

You've sold 1,500 units.

-Yeah.

-Right.

So what is the IP that you own that's proprietary,

that actually is valuable, other than,

"I've got a product ready to go to the market

"and I've sold 1,500 units

"and that's why I justify a valuation of £2 million today"?

I'm not sure the best way to answer that question

other than what I have done already.

The entrepreneur maintains his composure

in the face of a dogged Peter Jones.

And retail giant Touker Suleyman isn't prepared to let up on

the £2 million valuation issue, either.

Andrew. You're coming here and saying

you want us not to be a passive investor, you want us to add value.

-Yeah.

-But you're only offering 7.5%.

It doesn't give me the incentive...

..to roll up my sleeves and work with you

and catapult you to where you want to be

quicker than you're going to be.

Yeah.

I think your valuation is...crazy.

And for that reason, I'm out.

Andrew, I don't have dogs -

I struggle to keep a goldfish alive, to be honest.

I think four kids and a dog would completely tip the balance

in my house. I will never be a user of this, I can't,

it's... It's just not for me.

-Yep.

-So I won't be investing.

-Good luck.

-Thank you.

I'm out.

Two Dragons walk away from a deal.

Will Deborah Meaden have a different take on the invention?

Personally, Andrew, I think it's great.

-Thank you.

-I think it's really good.

So have you been talking to any of the big players?

Yeah, so we're talking to Pets At Home,

Dixons have agreed to stock it online.

And so have Argos, to trial it, and then John Lewis,

we failed in their first range review and we're trying again.

They want a more premium feel.

Premium feel or premium price?

They'd like both, but we want to stay true to the price point.

My only fear is we've come in here not asking for enough money,

because there's a lot of work to do.

No, you need to get somebody in and you need to get somebody engaged,

you're doing the right thing.

Reassuring words from Deborah Meaden.

But the real value of this business lies in the data

the doggy device is storing.

Online innovator Nick Jenkins wants to know how Andrew

plans to exploit it.

Can I ask you about...

..the usage on the units that you've got out there at the moment?

-Yeah.

-What's the analysis that you've done

on the level of engagement to date?

We don't know that yet, we're not sending data away from the app.

-Sorry?

-We're not transmitting usage data back from the app yet.

We know how many people have downloaded it,

we don't know how often they use it.

-That's one of the things we're looking to add.

-Wow. OK.

There's a lot more work to do,

but the things we're aiming for are massive.

Just imagine an app where it's suggesting

what dog food you should get, and how much you should feed your dog,

based on real, live data.

I mean, it's changing pet care.

The entrepreneur keeps on fighting as the Dragon showing

the most interest in the device uncovers a possible weak spot.

Technology millionaire Peter Jones has been less enthusiastic

about the product so far.

Has Andrew's passionate defence of his business

done anything to win him round?

I'm going to tell you where I am, Andrew.

Your valuation is ridiculous.

What you do have, I think, though, is you.

And I think you are very impressive.

If you'd come in and said, "I want £50,000 to £100,000,

"and I'm offering 25, 30% of my company,"

I actually might be tempted.

-Understood.

-But I'm not going to invest in you. I'm out.

The engineer-cum-entrepreneur fails to secure Peter Jones,

who becomes the third Dragon to walk away.

Just Deborah Meaden and Nick Jenkins now remain.

Andrew, can I throw you a bone here?

Cos I love this business.

But I think what you are missing is strategic thinking around how you're

going to maximise this opportunity.

And I think that that's what a Dragon can do -

is to give this the best chance of success.

So I think we've identified where we can add some value.

I'm going to make you an offer.

I'll offer you half of the money

for 10%.

Thank you.

The bit I really like is with the data you're capturing,

this could become the platform.

Where there is a mass data of pets.

Lost pets, registering lost pets,

all of those things that you could actually say, we are the platform.

I'm going to offer you 75,000 for 10%.

Thank you for your offers.

Deborah Meaden and Nick Jenkins join forces and between them offer

all of the £150,000 that Andrew needs.

But their collective demand of 20% equity is way more

than the 7.5% on offer.

Can Andrew secure a deal

that satisfies all of the other stakeholders?

Um. So, my only concern is,

I've got four shareholders already,

and I'm sure we won't grow as quickly

or go on to do as big a thing.

But unless you can improve, I think we'll choose to reject.

Well, Andrew, you need headspace.

-Yeah.

-This is an important decision for you,

and you've got other investors.

It sometimes is easier just to think when you're in your own head,

not staring at five people staring at you.

Do you want to go and talk to the wall?

Ha-ha. Uh.

I have a limit which we discussed with the shareholders in advance,

and it's off what you're offering and I don't want to...

Well, make us a counter offer.

So, it was 12.5%.

It's not, it's just not, Nick, it's just not...

..for me. It might be for you.

Andrew, really, really good product.

But I won't be investing, so I'm out.

I think we'll have to leave it as the fact that you have some big fans

of the product.

But I'm out as well.

Thank you very much for your time.

Despite two Dragons hungry for a deal,

the entrepreneur chose his own shareholders over them

and wouldn't move enough on the valuation.

He leaves with nothing.

There's nothing unique about tracking dogs.

I think you just saved yourself 150 grand.

I really liked it.

That was definitely a battle.

They did give a good valuation and a good offer, but we're aiming higher.

We may get two dogs for the office,

and call them Deborah and Nick,

just to remind us of what we turned down.

A varied range of products in the Den and, it's fair to say,

a varied range of reactions, too.

A tablet stand and light fitting failed to illuminate the Dragons.

A doggy device led to offers but didn't deliver a deal,

while a baby skin care range did.

And that's what the Den is all about.

Taking baby businesses

and giving them the chance to grow into adulthood.

Good luck to them all.

Coming up next time...

The conversation is not for later. The conversation is now.

-You know my answer.

-Yeah.

-I'm not prepared to do that today.

-No.

-Pardon?

-That's not the right answer.

-That's not the right answer?

What are you going to do if you don't get investment?

-It's not going to work.

-I'm going to make you an offer.

Well, I think I might pitch in with an offer as well.

I'm going to make you an offer,

and it's definitely an offer that I think that you should accept.

Next!

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