Episode 11 Dragons' Den


Episode 11

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Transcript


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Tonight, five Dragons limber up to invest.

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-Yay!

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Easily done.

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And as a new group of entrepreneurs warm up for the toughest pitch of

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their lives...

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I'm standing here like a rabbit in headlights.

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For us, it's way more than a business,

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and it's always going to be. It's just our way of life now.

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Some will be put through their paces...

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You'll never make any money out of it.

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You're not a businessman.

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He just literally came back and went, "But..."

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You didn't hear it.

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..some will push the Dragons to their limits...

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An investor will always want to see some level of investment

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-from yourselves.

-Don't speak on my behalf.

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..but who will power through and hit the ultimate target of a

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multimillionaire investor?

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This is a massive opportunity.

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You stopped me saying those two words.

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I'm going to give you an offer straightaway.

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Welcome back to Dragons' Den, where entrepreneurs with big dreams pitch

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their business ventures to five multimillionaires.

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A match made in heaven maybe, but only those who can promise big

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returns will secure the Dragons' cash.

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The first entrepreneurs tonight are Wiltshire-based Dylan Watkins and

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Louise Mackintosh, with a well balanced business partnership where

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they can both take the lead.

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We've pitched and presented a lot,

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and that side of it I don't think intimidates us.

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Oh, whoa. I'm standing here like rabbit in the headlights.

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And if the Dragons are feeling fiery,

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the duo have a secret weapon on their side.

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Very much hoping they'll be so distracted by the dog that

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they don't necessarily notice us.

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Hi.

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I'm Dylan, this is Louise, and this is Poppy,

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and we're here today to ask for £60,000

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for 5% share of Poppy's Picnic.

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We make wholesome, raw, natural dog food,

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made in the heart of Wiltshire,

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and it's handmade by fourth generation butchers.

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Five years ago, I was feeding Poppy a highly processed but expensive dry

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food, but I thought that there must be something better.

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After much research, I made my first batch of raw food.

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Fast forward two years,

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and my new neighbour wanted us to make some food

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for her Rottweilers. I knew I needed some help,

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so I asked the local village butcher to make my first recipe,

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and the rest is what you see here today.

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At the moment, the vast majority of dogs are fed highly processed meat

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derivative meals and it's unsurprising as a result

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that 55% of dogs in the UK are currently obese,

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but it is a preventable epidemic.

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Ours is a biologically appropriate raw diet, and what that means,

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quite simply, it's what dogs were designed to eat.

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Our growth from nought to 40,000 per month in less than a year shows

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that owners and dogs agree.

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To feed a dog like Poppy would cost just 55p a day.

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We have our own Defra licence to make food,

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and our abattoir is RSPCA assured.

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We're launching cat food soon,

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with our new to market raw meatballs.

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We need your money today, to help catapult this growth.

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Louise is going to bring some food over for you to have a look at.

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With plans to generate a raw pet food revolution,

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Dylan Watkins and Louise Mackintosh are looking for £60,000 for 5% of

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-their company.

-Shall I take that lead

-off?

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-Go on, then.

-Come on. OK. There we go.

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-OK. Bye-bye.

-Bye.

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-Just me and Poppy, then.

-OK, there we are, then. That's us done.

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-Fine.

-Goodbye now.

-Off you go.

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She's not the most loyal dog, is she?

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She's completely transferred her affections.

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-Bye.

-Bye.

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Once the cuddles are out of the way...

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Come on, then. Bye-bye.

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-See you in a minute.

-Bye-bye, Poppy.

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-Bye, Poppy.

-..fellow animal lover Deborah Meaden,

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who's previously invested in healthy pet treats...

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-Bye-bye.

-..is looking for assurance about the duo's ingredients.

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I have three dogs and a cat.

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And all of my animals are fed on raw food.

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I feed a product that is pure meat.

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If you're going to set yourself apart, based on this is better,

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who have you used to make sure that this is nutritionally balanced?

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We have used a team of vets to create our recipes,

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where we have worked in the amount of meat, bone ratio,

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the offal and also vegetables as well.

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We're trying to mirror as close as possible

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what the dog would eat in the wild.

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So, just so I double check,

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are you telling me you're turning over 40,000 a month?

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-Yes.

-That's pretty punchy, when did you first start?

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We started selling in October of last year.

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OK, so, can you talk me through the growth between October and today?

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In October, £7,000 a month in sales.

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January, we were up to 14,000,

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then our sales for March was 17,500,

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and then April was 23,500,

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and this is excluding our international sales.

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What's the international bit?

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19,000 we shipped in April,

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and at the end of April, we had another order come in for 44,000.

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-But we haven't put those into our figures.

-And which country is that?

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Hong Kong. And our license to sell in China

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is not far off from being approved.

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It's a good business, you've done well so far.

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-I think the market's great in terms of raw food.

-Yes.

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And I'm very impressed with your research,

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and development on the products.

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My company, we have actually launched supplements,

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and vitamins for dogs.

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I think it's great synergy with our pet vitamins and nutrition.

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I'm going to do something I've not done -

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I'm going to give you an offer straightaway.

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So, I'm going to offer you...

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all of the money, the £60,000,

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but I'd want 15% of your business.

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In a surprise early move that pricks up everybody's ears in the Den,

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vitamin impresario Tej Lalvani jumps in with an almost immediate offer.

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But at three times the equity the entrepreneurs wanted to give away,

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will Peter Jones be nipping at his heels?

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It's going well, isn't it?

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-At the moment.

-I want to know a little bit about your background,

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so your previous jobs.

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PR and marketing,

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and we met working in a PR agency as freelancers about 14 years ago,

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and we set up our own brand communications company.

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Although we were self-employed, we were still working for our clients.

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Naturally, what we wanted to do was work for ourselves,

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and focus our skills on something that we'd made and not something

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somebody was paying us to do.

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You can tell that you've done an amazing job.

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-Thank you.

-So, where this business could be in three years' time,

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give me a picture of that.

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Next year, we think we'll have a profit only at 24,000,

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then our net profit in year two is 160.

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Right, so how has it gone from... that to 160?

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Because our sales will increase this year.

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-OK, I sort of assumed that.

-Yeah.

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Then we are 1.9 million.

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By year three, you think you will do 1.9 million revenue?

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Yeah, with gross profit of 800,000, with a net profit of 300,000.

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How are you keeping that gross margin so high?

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With machinery and new practises,

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we will be able to comfortably make 2.5 million units at that point.

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Hmm.

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I don't believe the forecasts you've put together,

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because I think that seems very high.

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I'm not buying into the financial return.

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So, I'm going to say, sadly, I'm out.

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As quickly as they won over one Dragon,

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the entrepreneurs lose another,

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as Peter Jones casts doubts on their ambitious projections,

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and exits the deal.

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And now cashpoint queen and dog aficionado Jenny Campbell

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wants to put the duo through their paces on pricing.

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I have a sticker on my office door that says "The Mad Dog Lady".

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-Brilliant.

-My dogs are rather bigger than yours,

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-they're flat-coated retrievers, you know.

-Yes.

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-We do.

-Good.

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So, bigger dogs. That certainly won't cost 55p a day to feed on raw.

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How much a day to feed one of my dogs?

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-Give me the weight.

-30 kilos.

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30 kilos, so we're looking at probably between

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-600 and 900g a day.

-So, this would be two of these, then?

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-It would be two packs.

-Per dog.

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-Per dog.

-I've got three, by the way.

-OK.

-So that's six packs.

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You'd be doing two packs a day, say,

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which is 1.50, that would be £9.

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-Gosh, £3 a day per dog.

-Mmm-hmm.

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£9 a day.

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That's a lot, isn't it?

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It's another setback for the twosome,

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as the product's potential strain on Jenny Campbell's purse strings

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makes her pause for thought.

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But Deborah Meaden believes she's sniffed out a budding opportunity in

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their fledgling feline food range.

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Guys, you're focusing a lot on dogs, which is why...

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You've got that underway, and that's fantastic.

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I'm as interested in the cat food market...

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-So are we.

-Funny enough, I think it's actually...

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It's a more compelling market,

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because you will see a tipping point on cat food when owners suddenly

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realise, "Oh, my goodness, what are we doing?"

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It's starting to bubble up.

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How close are you on the cat food?

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We're pretty close on cat food, I've been on about cat food for months,

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-as you can imagine.

-We're testing out cat food.

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It's just about perfecting the recipe.

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Cats are a lot, lot fussier than dogs, so we've got...

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-Tell me about it.

-We've got the packaging in process at the moment.

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The logo's being adapted for a cat face.

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The cat side looks great, it really does.

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OK.

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In terms of what I could bring, I've got food manufacturing.

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In terms of the dog side, I will tell you,

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Jenny's a judge in dog shows, and whatever,

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but I'm saying I have quite an authentic voice

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within the dog community.

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But I've obviously got the contacts in the retail.

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It's a well trodden path for me.

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So, I'm going to make you an offer.

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I'll match Tej's offer.

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All of the money for 15% of the business.

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Not one to pussyfoot about, Deborah Meaden is now in direct

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competition with Tej Lalvani's early bid.

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And Touker Suleyman is also weighing up his position

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on the animal food company.

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You're very investable.

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The brand's very investable.

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I have, at home, no dogs.

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So, if I was an investor, I would have no knowledge on dog food.

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-OK.

-But I have a lot of knowledge about manufacturing, packaging,

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distribution, finance...

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I think I could add a lot of value to you,

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and I'm going to make you an offer.

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I will match the other Dragons, all the money for 15%.

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With three offers on the table,

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I just need to tell you what I would add.

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I have taken a business and transformed that business,

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in terms of its operational processes from end to end,

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I took that into four countries.

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I am passionate about dogs,

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and they're a very important part of my life -

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as are all animals.

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I do think this is a massive opportunity.

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So I will make you an offer.

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I don't see any point in splitting hairs.

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I'll invest all the money at 15%.

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There are now four identical offers on the table.

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Can Tej Lalvani, the original leader of the pack with his early offer,

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get his nose back out in front?

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I could do everything that you need as a Dragon to be able to get

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where you want to get.

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We work very closely with Battersea Dogs and Cats Home,

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and we do a lot of research with them, we worked under the charity...

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And in terms of manufacturing,

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obviously, we manufacture a huge amount of product,

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and we ship them internationally to over 100 countries.

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So, in terms of logistics, dealing with international parties,

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and working margins, I can obviously help in that area.

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Thank you.

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It's an enviable position for the entrepreneurs,

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with four Dragons vying to be top dog.

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Do you want to go back and have a chat with yourselves?

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-That might help, thank you.

-A huddle's needed. Thank you, all.

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-Huddle under the light.

-Thank you.

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At three times the equity on the table, it's not an easy call,

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with all the bids coming in at 15%.

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Much higher than what I wanted to do.

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Is it worth pulling out?

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Erm...

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OK, let's go questions.

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Thank you. We weren't expecting to have four offers.

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Your percentages, though, for me, are... Mmm,

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a little bit high.

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And they're very high, compared to where I was starting off at 5%.

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Those faces now!

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I'll tell you where I am at.

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I actually think it's a very fair offer,

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considering your net profit is going to be £24,000 this year.

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I will add to that. I know what I can add to the business,

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and I'm going to have to stick on 15%.

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OK. So I'm not going to revise my offer, it's £60,000 for 15%.

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And I'm sticking at 15%.

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There's no wiggle room,

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as the Dragons refuse to budge on their meaty equity propositions.

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I think it's decision time.

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We saw you two ladies...

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-Oh.

-..as, you know, people that we were very interested in investing,

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because, of course, dogs...

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We went to that.

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But with your knowledge, expertise...

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Deborah, we'd like to accept.

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Excellent!

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-Good job, guys.

-I can't tell you how pleased I am.

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-Thank you, as well.

-Well done. Congratulations.

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-Right, how exciting, I am really, really pleased.

-Thank you very much.

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After a roller-coaster session, Dylan and Louise have nailed it,

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and they walk away from the Den with

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-their perfect Dragon partner on board.

-It was the right thing to do.

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-Right thing to do.

-OK.

-Well done, Deborah.

-Yeah, well done, Deborah.

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I think they got the right Dragon to make that a success.

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Your little face on those packs of food

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won an awful lot of people's hearts today.

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Thanks, Pops. Much love to you.

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Next into the Den, a doctor making a bold claim

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about how he's aiming to get the nation fit for purpose.

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I'm keen to change Britain's landscape,

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in terms of healthy eating.

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If Jamie Oliver can do it, then I think Doctor Asif can do it as well.

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Hi, Dragons. My name's Asif, I'm the founder of Date Smoothie,

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and I'm here today seeking a £50,000 investment

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for a 10% stake in my business.

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Before I start, I'd like to ask a quick question.

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How many of you missed breakfast this morning?

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Deborah? OK. Well, that was me many years ago as a junior doctor,

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rushing out the house, trying to make the half seven ward round.

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It was only when I collapsed in theatre last year,

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that I decided to bring breakfast to work.

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And that was in the form of smoothies available on the shelves.

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However, these smoothies contain upwards of 40g of sugar.

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And being a doctor, that didn't sit well with me.

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So using my knowledge of human nutrition and physiology,

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I devised my own recipe and created Date Smoothie.

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Each 250 ml bottle contains...

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only natural ingredients - such as flax seeds, as a source of fibre,

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and dates as a natural source of sweetener.

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Since then, I've incorporated a unique food compartment

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into the design that contains trail mix -

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making this the world's first complete liquid,

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and solid meal replacement.

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I welcome you to try the products, and I look forward to any questions.

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Thank you.

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A smoothie with a side of nuts and seeds

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is the package on offer from Doctor Asif Munaf.

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So, there's three different flavours there.

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Hazelnut, pecan, and cacao.

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He's looking for an investment of £50,000

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in return for 10% of his company.

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What's that one?

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That's the cacao. That's the mild hint of coffee.

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-Oh, OK.

-Can health supremo Tej Lalvani

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see a wholesome future in this liquid breakfast product?

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-Hi, Asif.

-Hi.

-I actually like one of them, the hazelnut one's very nice.

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-Yeah, that's the popular one.

-Your formulation is quite good, actually.

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Using my knowledge and my research in human nutrition and physiology,

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I've created a product that's not just off-the-cuff.

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No, I mean, you've clearly thought about it well.

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Tell me, there's quite a few date drinks on the market.

0:19:040:19:08

How does yours compare?

0:19:080:19:10

Our unique selling point is that it's not just a date drink,

0:19:100:19:13

the date is a sweetener to the drink.

0:19:130:19:16

The date name is actually Doctor Asif's Thoughtful Eating,

0:19:160:19:19

it's an acronym.

0:19:190:19:20

I wouldn't have realised that, I would have just...

0:19:210:19:23

-Doctor Asif's...

-..Thoughtful Eating.

0:19:230:19:26

Thoughtful Eating?

0:19:260:19:28

-Oh.

-Asif, I think you've done a lovely thing.

0:19:280:19:31

But please don't be that clever over "date."

0:19:310:19:34

You're thinking's wrong, completely wrong, in terms of your brand.

0:19:340:19:37

I believe the branding is quite strong, actually.

0:19:370:19:39

Because using "date," you know, it's an acronym,

0:19:400:19:43

-it's not just a date smoothie.

-That's... OK, now there's a problem.

0:19:430:19:47

If you see a product on the shelf that has got date written all the

0:19:470:19:49

way across the front of it, most people, I promise you,

0:19:490:19:53

are going to think that it's a date product.

0:19:530:19:56

I absolutely promise you, and that isn't coming from any expertise,

0:19:570:20:00

that's coming from good old-fashioned common sense.

0:20:000:20:03

Now, the fact that you won't hear that, that's a bit of an issue.

0:20:030:20:07

But...but the...

0:20:070:20:09

No, you didn't hear it, you just came, "but..."

0:20:090:20:11

You literally came back and went, "but..."

0:20:110:20:14

You didn't hear it.

0:20:140:20:15

A sticky encounter, as Asif's choice of name

0:20:170:20:20

gets him on the wrong side of Deborah Meaden.

0:20:200:20:23

Meanwhile, Touker Suleyman wants to share his thoughts

0:20:240:20:27

on his perfect start to the day.

0:20:270:20:30

I drink a smoothie every morning.

0:20:320:20:34

And I'll tell you what it is. Maybe you can tell me if it's right or wrong.

0:20:340:20:37

-Right.

-So, I put strawberries, blackberries and raspberries,

0:20:370:20:43

a banana, granola, juice, I mix it all up,

0:20:430:20:46

that's my breakfast and I drink it.

0:20:460:20:48

-Yeah.

-Now, if I felt that I wanted to be in the smoothie business,

0:20:480:20:52

I'd take that recipe, I'd go to a manufacturer and I'd say,

0:20:520:20:58

"Touker's Smoothie."

0:20:580:21:00

But who is Touker?

0:21:020:21:03

I'll tell you who Touker is.

0:21:050:21:06

Touker actually is better known than you.

0:21:060:21:09

-Of course, yes.

-So, therefore, I've got more of a chance of

0:21:090:21:11

starting my own smoothie business than you have.

0:21:110:21:14

A battle of wills as Asif and Touker Suleyman

0:21:170:21:20

bicker over who has the most pulling power.

0:21:200:21:24

And now, Jenny Campbell's wrestling with the idea behind the nut box.

0:21:240:21:29

I wanted to pick up on this chamber thing.

0:21:300:21:33

So, what am I going to do, am I going to unscrew this and eat them out my

0:21:330:21:35

-hand and drink the...?

-That's right, yeah.

0:21:350:21:38

So, it's two separate compartments that can be left on your desk,

0:21:380:21:40

and you can nibble away at the nuts all day long,

0:21:400:21:42

and you can drink the smoothie.

0:21:420:21:44

So it's a liquid and solid meal replacement.

0:21:440:21:46

I don't see the connection there.

0:21:460:21:48

I would have bought a packet of nuts or something.

0:21:480:21:50

I think you're branching into something that's already existing in

0:21:500:21:53

many shapes and forms.

0:21:530:21:54

I think combining the two together is quite novel, and doing it in

0:21:550:21:58

-a nutritionally balanced way...

-Yes, we don't want to do things

0:21:580:22:01

that are novel.

0:22:010:22:03

We want to do things that get over novelty factor,

0:22:030:22:05

you know, and have a sustainable future.

0:22:050:22:07

Jenny Campbell deems Asif's smoothie and nut mix

0:22:090:22:13

an overcomplicated combination,

0:22:130:22:15

prompting Tej Lalvani to wonder how it's going down in the shops.

0:22:150:22:21

Have you tried approaching any of the big retailers?

0:22:210:22:24

Not at the moment, no, because at the moment it's got a shelf life of

0:22:240:22:27

-three days and...

-Three days?

-Yes.

0:22:270:22:29

Because it's got live ingredients in there.

0:22:300:22:33

Using the investment, which I'm hoping to get...

0:22:330:22:35

..these smoothies can be processed using HPP technique

0:22:370:22:41

to extend the shelf life to roughly 21 days.

0:22:410:22:45

So, you're saying from the day this is made,

0:22:450:22:48

it's got to sell off the shelves really, really quickly?

0:22:480:22:51

Now, that's fine if you've got the most amazing, revolutionary product,

0:22:510:22:56

but you will never convince them that it's worth taking a risk on.

0:22:560:22:59

Deborah, can I ask you a question, sorry?

0:22:590:23:01

How... What's the shelf life of a sandwich?

0:23:010:23:03

Yeah, but that's ambient.

0:23:030:23:05

And people buy sandwiches all day, every day.

0:23:050:23:08

This is a new product, that is very much into a narrow market,

0:23:080:23:12

-that I expect to last a little bit longer.

-Mmm-hmm.

0:23:120:23:14

The cold shoulder again from Deborah Meaden as the Dragons spot some

0:23:160:23:21

issues with Asif's product's short shelf life.

0:23:210:23:24

But has Peter Jones been convinced by the doctor's prescription

0:23:260:23:29

to eat yourself fit?

0:23:290:23:31

I'm always a great believer in being really straight to the point.

0:23:330:23:37

I'm being a bit frustrated here, but the thing is,

0:23:370:23:39

I don't think you realise, you haven't really looked at the market.

0:23:390:23:42

I have. I've done excessive market research.

0:23:420:23:44

Well, if you had, you will know that it's almost impossible to launch

0:23:440:23:47

a smoothie product into the market - especially into retail.

0:23:470:23:49

No, I disagree. It's got 12% annual growth rate,

0:23:490:23:52

combined annual growth rate, year-on-year.

0:23:520:23:54

It's a 5 billion industry, 85 million in the UK.

0:23:540:23:57

So, tell me how much did Innocent smoothies make in the first 15,

0:23:570:24:01

ten years of their life?

0:24:010:24:03

They had the biggest market share, so they must have sold millions.

0:24:040:24:07

-How much money did they make?

-In excess of tens of millions.

0:24:070:24:10

Well, I can tell you, they didn't make any money.

0:24:100:24:13

Did not make any money.

0:24:150:24:17

Yes, but I believe in my credentials...

0:24:170:24:20

Your credentials won't make a slight difference, sadly.

0:24:200:24:23

I'd much prefer you to stay in the profession of which you've been

0:24:230:24:26

trained to help and save lives,

0:24:260:24:28

because this product will never make it to the market and you'll never

0:24:280:24:32

make any money out of it. You have no chance.

0:24:320:24:34

I know that that might be hard to hear.

0:24:360:24:38

No, that's completely fine, because the smoothies,

0:24:380:24:40

I agree, the smoothies, it may be a saturated market.

0:24:400:24:43

Look, Asif, it's not something for me.

0:24:430:24:46

-I'm out.

-That's fine.

0:24:460:24:50

Peter Jones discharges himself from proceedings,

0:24:500:24:53

advising the doctor to stick to his day job.

0:24:530:24:56

And it looks like Asif's credentials are also on Touker Suleyman's mind.

0:24:580:25:03

I do respect the fact that you're a doctor,

0:25:040:25:08

and I do respect the fact that you're knowledgeable.

0:25:080:25:11

I'm a great believer of prevention is better than cure.

0:25:110:25:15

-Yeah, certainly.

-But you're not a businessman.

0:25:150:25:17

Mmm-hmm. That's what I'm here for. That's why I'm here.

0:25:170:25:19

No, but... Yeah, hold on. As far as business is concerned, I think...

0:25:190:25:25

you'd make more money being a consultant

0:25:250:25:26

to another smoothie company. You'd be a very rich man.

0:25:260:25:30

So, they are my kind words to you,

0:25:300:25:32

but my other words to you are very simple.

0:25:320:25:35

I'm not going to invest in your business,

0:25:350:25:38

-so I'm out.

-OK.

0:25:380:25:41

Asif, I really like the thinking behind it.

0:25:410:25:45

I love what you're trying to do, but if you can't improve this,

0:25:450:25:49

take Peter's advice.

0:25:490:25:50

It's a narrow market, it's wrongly branded,

0:25:500:25:53

and it's got intrinsic issues in terms of the way it's delivered.

0:25:530:25:57

This is not an investment.

0:25:570:25:59

I'm afraid I'm out.

0:26:000:26:02

Three Dragons now find Asif's recipe for success indigestible.

0:26:030:26:09

But Tej Lalvani is in the health business.

0:26:110:26:14

Does he see the doctor's product as a healthy fit with his own?

0:26:140:26:19

I'd say just do it very carefully, if you want to do it.

0:26:210:26:25

Approach it with care, see the feedback,

0:26:250:26:27

and I'd take Deborah's advice on board with the packaging as well.

0:26:270:26:30

It really doesn't communicate the benefits of your product and it

0:26:310:26:34

needs to be on the front. But otherwise, for me,

0:26:340:26:38

it's too much of a risk to invest.

0:26:380:26:41

I'm out.

0:26:410:26:43

Tej Lalvani's exit only leaves Jenny Campbell.

0:26:440:26:48

Could she be the Dragon to nurture the seeds of Asif's start-up?

0:26:480:26:52

Asif, do you own 100% of the business?

0:26:540:26:56

-I do, yes.

-What have you valued it at?

0:26:560:26:59

I think the company can be valued at half a million, £500,000.

0:26:590:27:03

How can you say this is worth half a million pounds?

0:27:030:27:06

Because a business's valuation is not solely based on its balance sheets.

0:27:060:27:11

-What is it based on, then?

-It's based on the potential market it's

0:27:110:27:14

going into, its place in that market, its differentiation,

0:27:140:27:18

its founder, its ethics, its ethos.

0:27:180:27:21

But a lot of that is future value with all the risks along the way.

0:27:210:27:24

-Yeah, exactly.

-You know, that's not an investment at all.

0:27:240:27:27

You are so early stage and you need somebody who you will listen to from

0:27:270:27:31

a business perspective.

0:27:310:27:33

But, today, it's not an investment for me.

0:27:330:27:35

-So, I'm out.

-Thank you.

0:27:350:27:37

-Good luck, Asif.

-Good luck.

-Thank you.

0:27:370:27:40

A less than smooth date with the Dragons as Asif

0:27:400:27:43

leaves the Den without the financial connection he was

0:27:430:27:47

looking for, but it's given serial risk taker Touker Suleyman

0:27:470:27:50

some food for thought about turning his breakfast into a business.

0:27:500:27:55

I've got more chance of using a Touker shake than anything else.

0:27:550:27:58

-You could call it Touker's Smooth.

-HE LAUGHS

0:27:580:28:02

Would I buy a Touker smoothie?

0:28:020:28:04

No, I wouldn't.

0:28:040:28:06

I think my auntie could make better smoothies.

0:28:060:28:08

So far tonight, £60,000 has already been pledged.

0:28:170:28:21

With your knowledge, expertise, Deborah, we'd like to accept.

0:28:210:28:26

So, if the Dragons are to be persuaded

0:28:260:28:28

to part with any more of their cash...

0:28:280:28:30

Would you say that if I wanted to invest, it would be a punt?

0:28:300:28:34

Part of me's going, "No, just don't do this," you know?

0:28:340:28:38

..our final entrepreneurs will need to have their wits about them.

0:28:380:28:41

That's not a good answer.

0:28:410:28:43

It doesn't excite me.

0:28:430:28:44

I'm wondering if you've got entrepreneurial freeze.

0:28:440:28:47

Keep on dreaming.

0:28:470:28:49

It's not going to be with my money.

0:28:490:28:51

London-based Dan Edwards is next in the Den tonight with a pioneering

0:28:590:29:04

exercise regime that's scaling the heights of ambition.

0:29:040:29:08

Our business is building better humans.

0:29:080:29:10

It's just a tool to train the body and mind through movement.

0:29:100:29:13

For us, its way more than a business,

0:29:150:29:17

and it's always going to be. It's just our way of life now.

0:29:170:29:19

I feel I should applaud.

0:29:550:29:56

I just hope you don't ask us to do that.

0:29:580:30:00

Oh, I wanted a go.

0:30:000:30:01

I do that every morning.

0:30:010:30:03

Great.

0:30:030:30:04

Hi, my name's Dan Edwards,

0:30:050:30:07

I'm the CEO and co-founder of Parkour Generations.

0:30:070:30:11

We're living in a world that is desperately in need of more movement.

0:30:110:30:15

The information age has given rise to very sedentary and immobile

0:30:150:30:18

lifestyles, and that's had people out looking for refreshing new ways

0:30:180:30:22

to get fit, get active, get mobile, and to engage with their body

0:30:220:30:25

and mind, and connect with their environment.

0:30:250:30:27

Parkour is a way of training the body and mind through

0:30:270:30:30

movement, including movements like running, jumping, climbing,

0:30:300:30:33

crawling, vaulting. Earlier this year,

0:30:330:30:36

parkour was recognised as a new sport in the UK,

0:30:360:30:38

which was the first country ever to do so.

0:30:380:30:40

We provide services such as teaching,

0:30:400:30:42

classes, workshops, events. We also provide for movies,

0:30:420:30:45

performance, live display, product launch.

0:30:450:30:48

We already have early-stage agreements with one of the largest

0:30:480:30:51

gym chains in the States, one of the most exclusive ones in the UK,

0:30:510:30:54

to launch our parkour programmes this summer and this autumn.

0:30:540:30:58

We're looking for £150,000 for 5% the company,

0:30:580:31:03

and we'd love to know if any of you goes would like to have a go.

0:31:030:31:06

-Yeah, let's do it.

-Why not?

-Let's do it.

-Let's do it, great.

0:31:060:31:09

A sure-footed pitch from Dan Edwards,

0:31:090:31:12

who is offering 5% of his movement

0:31:120:31:15

training classes in return for £150,000.

0:31:150:31:19

-So I'm going to come up, up.

-Pop up, that's it.

0:31:190:31:21

-I'm going to go over.

-Exactly.

-And I'm going to pop off.

0:31:210:31:24

And pop down. Beautiful.

0:31:240:31:26

Isn't that what they do at the end?

0:31:260:31:29

The next obstacle for the entrepreneur is the Dragons' questioning.

0:31:290:31:33

-That's it.

-Whoops.

0:31:330:31:34

-THEY LAUGH

-Yeah, yeah!

0:31:340:31:37

Beautifully done!

0:31:370:31:39

Starting with leisure industry insider and movie fan,

0:31:390:31:42

Deborah Meaden.

0:31:420:31:43

Dan, that was fun.

0:31:470:31:49

So, you do that really cool stuff over the roofs and over the...?

0:31:490:31:52

-Yeah.

-Do you do that?

-Yes, yes.

-And what films have you done?

0:31:520:31:55

Most recent productions we worked with were Spider-Man,

0:31:550:31:58

Assassin's Creed, Patient Zero.

0:31:580:32:00

So, I guess, for me, the most important question is,

0:32:000:32:03

could you get me a part in one of those movies doing parkour?

0:32:030:32:05

-Absolutely. A bit of training.

-OK, right, you're on.

0:32:050:32:08

All right, now, get serious.

0:32:080:32:10

You're obviously trading, you're doing a lot of work.

0:32:100:32:12

So, what's the turnover?

0:32:120:32:14

Last year was 424,000.

0:32:140:32:17

And the year before that was 357.

0:32:170:32:19

The year before that was 312.

0:32:190:32:20

-And profit?

-Profit last year was 64,000.

0:32:200:32:23

Profit the year before that was 28.

0:32:230:32:25

The year before that, we actually made a loss of about 50,000.

0:32:250:32:28

I think because we were building a facility in London, the gym.

0:32:280:32:31

How big do you see this going?

0:32:310:32:32

We see it fairly big. For example, in the fitness industry,

0:32:320:32:35

what we want to do is license our content. For example,

0:32:350:32:38

a gym chain in the States might have 500 clubs and the idea is

0:32:380:32:41

they pay a licence fee per club per year to have your brand and your

0:32:410:32:45

content in there, and you train their instructors,

0:32:450:32:48

and then they deliver the classes.

0:32:480:32:50

If you're above a certain age, say, I'm 40 plus,

0:32:510:32:53

how easy is it to learn some of these things?

0:32:530:32:55

Because you guys were doing somersaults and flips and presumably

0:32:550:32:58

that's quite hard to do?

0:32:580:33:00

What you see there is a little bit of the high-end stuff,

0:33:000:33:03

but it's absolutely accessible to everyone.

0:33:030:33:05

The vast majority of parkour training is just refining your

0:33:050:33:07

movement skills.

0:33:070:33:09

And what's been the reaction with gyms in the UK that you've

0:33:090:33:13

approached already for licencing something like this?

0:33:130:33:16

Most of them are very, very, very interested.

0:33:160:33:18

Which ones have you met and what have they said?

0:33:180:33:20

We've met pretty much all of the big ones, the Fitness Firsts,

0:33:200:33:23

the Virgins and the David Lloyds,

0:33:230:33:24

and they definitely want to engage with it,

0:33:240:33:26

but we haven't really found one that is exactly the right fit.

0:33:260:33:29

Well, what how do you mean, "the right fit,"

0:33:300:33:32

because presumably all of them should be really interested

0:33:320:33:34

-in something which is new and exciting?

-Yes, but there's

0:33:340:33:37

certain things that we want in place. So we're very interested

0:33:370:33:40

in making sure that it retains its movement quality.

0:33:400:33:42

-So, of the big chains, have any of them shown real interest?

-Yes.

0:33:420:33:45

-How many?

-Two to three were very, very interested,

0:33:460:33:50

and we are still in negotiations with some of them.

0:33:500:33:53

Tej Lalvani has uncovered potential interest,

0:33:540:33:57

but no take-up from big industry players,

0:33:570:34:01

which has left Peter Jones questioning the company's

0:34:010:34:04

seven-figure price tag.

0:34:040:34:06

I was hoping that you would come in and say, "Well,

0:34:070:34:09

"I've signed three gyms, we're doing a roll out,

0:34:090:34:12

"that's why we need 150,000,

0:34:120:34:14

"and we've already got all of these signed up,

0:34:140:34:18

"and here are the deals", but you're not.

0:34:180:34:19

Why have you come in with such a ludicrous valuation?

0:34:210:34:24

We are rolling out in summer with the second largest gym chain in the

0:34:260:34:29

States, so they will be piloting the programmes there,

0:34:290:34:31

and then they will roll out to their 450 clubs, so that is going ahead,

0:34:310:34:35

and in the UK in the autumn we will be rolling it out in London with

0:34:350:34:38

a very exclusive gym.

0:34:380:34:39

-One gym?

-Yeah, it's a very high-end gym.

0:34:390:34:41

It's a very expensive gym to be a member of.

0:34:410:34:44

Yeah, but it's kind of like you want to build a fire and you've, at the

0:34:440:34:47

moment you've collated some wood,

0:34:470:34:48

but you don't have the ability to light the fire.

0:34:480:34:51

You have no contracts in place,

0:34:530:34:55

and you're valuing this at three million,

0:34:550:34:57

which is a bit annoying.

0:34:570:34:59

I can completely understand how you might look at it that way.

0:35:010:35:04

It's been recognised as a sport in the UK, that is a huge thing,

0:35:040:35:07

so, this is the amount of work we have done to create this industry,

0:35:070:35:10

and ring-fence our products and our content and our brand.

0:35:100:35:12

That's the point, you haven't done that.

0:35:120:35:15

You have not done that at all.

0:35:150:35:16

Tell me about the agreements that you've got in the UK with one

0:35:180:35:21

gym, not a gym where it's an exclusive gym,

0:35:210:35:23

I want to know the big gyms.

0:35:230:35:25

So do you know Kicks? So Kicks is the most expensive...

0:35:250:35:27

-I'm a member of Kicks.

-Yeah, great, awesome.

0:35:270:35:29

If I go on Saturday and say,

0:35:290:35:31

"What activities have you got in your gym?",

0:35:310:35:34

-they will mention you, will they?

-They might keep it secret.

0:35:340:35:36

They won't keep it secret. They know me very well there.

0:35:360:35:38

But, yes, we are piloting the course in September.

0:35:380:35:40

-Have you signed up the agreement?

-Well...

0:35:400:35:42

-Is it signed?

-No, we haven't signed an agreement.

-Ah, ah!

0:35:420:35:46

-So, you haven't signed?

-No, no.

0:35:460:35:48

OK. Fine. So you've answered my question.

0:35:480:35:50

-You have not signed.

-Yeah.

0:35:500:35:53

I get the impression that you're dreaming.

0:35:530:35:55

So, all I can say to you is keep on dreaming,

0:35:580:36:02

it's not going to be with my money,

0:36:020:36:03

and I'm out.

0:36:030:36:05

A sceptical Touker Suleyman is the first Dragon out,

0:36:050:36:09

unconvinced by Dan's claims of impressive growth on the horizon.

0:36:090:36:14

But Jenny Campbell, queen of the business flip,

0:36:140:36:18

is more concerned about the company's financial structure.

0:36:180:36:21

You have used "we" a lot. Who owns this business?

0:36:210:36:24

There's three co-founders, so three shareholders.

0:36:240:36:27

So, the equity is 33 and a third each, is it?

0:36:270:36:29

-Yeah.

-And what money has gone into the business already?

0:36:290:36:32

There's no money has gone into it

0:36:320:36:34

from any loans or anything like that.

0:36:340:36:36

None of you have invested any money in this,

0:36:360:36:38

you've just lived on what it's generated?

0:36:380:36:40

Yeah.

0:36:400:36:42

So have you heard of the phrase in business,

0:36:420:36:44

-"Having your own skin in the game"?

-Yeah.

0:36:440:36:46

You've got no money in this business yourself, you've put nothing in.

0:36:470:36:50

I suppose we didn't have the cash to put in.

0:36:520:36:55

An investor will always want to see some level

0:36:550:36:57

-of investment from yourselves.

-We have entrepreneurs in the Den here

0:36:570:37:00

who have mortgaged their houses, sold their houses...

0:37:000:37:03

Don't speak on my behalf, cos actually I don't always want to see

0:37:030:37:06

money in the business. Speak on your behalf.

0:37:060:37:08

-Some investors will want to see that, yeah?

-Yeah.

0:37:080:37:11

You have to put yourself in an investor's shoes and say,

0:37:110:37:14

"What's an investor going to look for?"

0:37:140:37:16

And they need to see a credible entrepreneur, a credible product,

0:37:160:37:19

something that will give them a rate of return,

0:37:190:37:21

and it's impossible to see a rate of return on this,

0:37:210:37:24

for this level of investment,

0:37:240:37:26

for the level of equity that you're offering.

0:37:260:37:28

It is really quite difficult.

0:37:280:37:30

There's nothing concrete there at the moment to hold on to.

0:37:300:37:33

It's the first newly recognised sport in 30 years in the country,

0:37:330:37:35

-that's a big thing.

-I do recognise your passion

0:37:350:37:38

and enthusiasm for this.

0:37:380:37:39

I don't recognise the business opportunity at all.

0:37:390:37:42

I'm out.

0:37:440:37:45

Jenny Campbell doesn't see a viable proposition,

0:37:470:37:50

and is the second Dragon down.

0:37:500:37:53

Will Deborah Meaden,

0:37:530:37:54

who already has a foothold in gym-based exercise classes,

0:37:540:37:58

take a leap of faith and invest in this one?

0:37:580:38:01

So, Dan, I think it's really cool what you've done,

0:38:050:38:07

I think it's fantastic that you've got this recognised as a sport,

0:38:070:38:11

but the first two words I wrote down are "Class size."

0:38:110:38:14

How many people can you get into a class?

0:38:140:38:17

We run classes regularly that are up to 70 people in a class,

0:38:170:38:20

depending on the space. In a small space, so for example, in here,

0:38:200:38:23

we would probably have a max of 40 people in the class.

0:38:230:38:27

Now, I get that, but the point about class size is,

0:38:270:38:29

-gyms are looking to attract more people into those rooms.

-Yeah.

0:38:290:38:34

And every time you put a piece of kit in, it knocks a body out,

0:38:340:38:38

and it is the size of the movement that we were doing there,

0:38:380:38:40

you need space to do this that you don't need when you're standing next

0:38:400:38:44

door to each other and moving.

0:38:440:38:46

But also, it is going to be restricted to a certain type of person,

0:38:470:38:52

so it worries me that your market is getting smaller and smaller.

0:38:520:38:56

So, I won't be investing.

0:38:560:38:58

I'm out.

0:38:580:39:00

Thanks.

0:39:000:39:02

Dan, I think you've been really disingenuous coming in here with a

0:39:020:39:05

valuation of three million, and incredibly disappointing.

0:39:050:39:08

You've made it absolutely clear you don't want investment,

0:39:080:39:12

because you're valuing your business at 50 times its earnings,

0:39:120:39:16

which is ludicrous.

0:39:160:39:18

So, on that basis, I'm out.

0:39:200:39:22

As Peter Jones rejects the deal, irritated by the valuation,

0:39:250:39:31

only fitness fan Tej Lalvani is still in play.

0:39:310:39:35

Can Dan persuade the last Dragon standing that his training system

0:39:360:39:41

does have legs?

0:39:410:39:42

I actually love what you're doing.

0:39:420:39:44

You know, I've always loved climbing as a kid.

0:39:450:39:47

The only thing I'm struggling with is...

0:39:490:39:52

is the reception that you've got from some of the chains, I mean,

0:39:520:39:55

they should have adopted it and taken it and signed up,

0:39:550:39:58

and I think you're probably going to have a lot of difficulty.

0:39:580:40:01

My advice is to continue with the one gym that you're building,

0:40:010:40:06

make that a success, fill it up, and then move on to another location,

0:40:060:40:11

and you just own the franchises and build it up.

0:40:110:40:13

But, even as a punt, the equity split three ways between you,

0:40:130:40:17

and if I wanted 40%, I'm going to be the major shareholder.

0:40:170:40:20

And that just doesn't work.

0:40:200:40:22

It needs to be you guys driving the business forward.

0:40:220:40:25

It's not a feasible investment, so...

0:40:260:40:29

I'm out.

0:40:290:40:31

Thank you very much.

0:40:310:40:32

Cheers.

0:40:320:40:35

So, Dan vaults away without a Dragon investor,

0:40:350:40:39

unable to avoid the perhaps inevitable fate of those who

0:40:390:40:43

overprice their start-up in the Den.

0:40:430:40:46

Just valuations, people base valuations, it's...

0:40:460:40:48

-it's a real problem.

-It just gets in the way of a proper conversation,

0:40:480:40:52

-doesn't it?

-I'm pretty sure we are going to get investment at the

0:40:520:40:54

valuation we want. We will go on from here,

0:40:540:40:56

and prove the Dragons wrong.

0:40:560:40:58

Hoping for more success with the Dragons was Londoner Gemma Judd,

0:41:070:41:11

who was aiming to add a splash of colour to the

0:41:110:41:13

Den with her tanning accessory product.

0:41:130:41:16

As a massive fan of tan in the can but not of the mess it creates,

0:41:160:41:21

I've created a pop-up shield used to protect surrounding surfaces when

0:41:210:41:25

spraying just your arms and legs at home.

0:41:250:41:28

Touker Suleyman got an invitation he couldn't refuse.

0:41:280:41:31

-Would you like to get in it?

-Go on, Touks.

0:41:310:41:34

-Go on, Touker.

-Are you kidding me?

0:41:340:41:35

-No.

-No, you'd fit in whole bag!

0:41:350:41:37

-OK.

-Ooh.

-Beautiful.

-Oh, no.

-Boy, does that need a tan.

0:41:390:41:42

-Oh, no.

-Yeah.

0:41:420:41:44

-ALL:

-Ooh!

-Funny colour.

0:41:440:41:46

-It's my colour.

-Oh, is that what it is?

0:41:460:41:49

THEY LAUGH

0:41:490:41:51

Touker, that's not a good look.

0:41:510:41:52

One of your legs looks alive.

0:41:520:41:54

Having seen the colour of a Dragon's legs, Gemma was now hoping to see

0:41:570:42:01

the colour of the Dragons' money and seeking £50,000 to help her launch

0:42:010:42:05

her product onto the market.

0:42:050:42:07

-Beautiful modelling.

-Thank you.

0:42:070:42:10

But Deborah Meaden soon discovered the sales figures

0:42:100:42:13

were a little anaemic.

0:42:130:42:14

You're looking to launch the product?

0:42:140:42:16

-Yes.

-So, at the moment, you've got no sales at all?

0:42:160:42:19

I've sold 21, and that's to my best friends and close family members.

0:42:190:42:23

-Right, OK!

-But things soon took a "tan" for the worst.

0:42:230:42:27

So, how many have you sold without your friends?

0:42:270:42:30

Oh, four.

0:42:300:42:32

Jenny Campbell had a burning issue

0:42:320:42:34

with the name of the bronzing business.

0:42:340:42:36

Did you have to put UK on it to trademark it?

0:42:360:42:39

-Yes.

-So, haven't you limited your potential for global ambitions?

0:42:390:42:43

Probably, yes.

0:42:430:42:44

-Oh.

-I like Sprayaway UK.

0:42:440:42:47

-I like Sprayaway.

-Yeah.

-I just wish it didn't say UK underneath.

0:42:470:42:50

-Just don't read that bit.

-THEY LAUGH

0:42:500:42:53

Deborah Meaden had some personal experience to call on.

0:42:530:42:57

I've only had a little moment of spray tan in my life,

0:42:570:43:00

and that was when I was doing Strictly.

0:43:000:43:02

-Oh, I heard about that.

-And I suddenly became intimately familiar

0:43:020:43:05

with leg make-up and arm make-up and the rest of it.

0:43:050:43:07

But she still can-canned the idea.

0:43:070:43:10

Well done for coming up with it.

0:43:100:43:12

-Thank you.

-But I don't think massive market.

0:43:120:43:14

-I'm afraid I won't be investing.

-Thank you.

-I'm out.

0:43:140:43:17

It was left to the Dragon with different coloured legs...

0:43:170:43:21

-Are you dry?

-I'm dry.

0:43:210:43:23

..to draw a tan line under the proposal.

0:43:230:43:26

You've got enthusiasm, you've got the smile,

0:43:260:43:29

but you haven't really got a business.

0:43:290:43:30

-Yeah.

-So I'm out.

-OK.

0:43:300:43:34

And the tanning pitch was toast.

0:43:340:43:37

It probably wasn't the best shade for Touker.

0:43:370:43:39

I hope he washes it off afterwards.

0:43:390:43:42

Well, the final entrepreneur tonight is firefighter Daniel Cheddie,

0:43:460:43:50

here with two safety products he's created to save lives.

0:43:500:43:55

But will his passion to protect be enough to attract a Dragon investor?

0:43:550:44:00

When you get caught, you have to be ready to face the pressure.

0:44:050:44:08

It's a life-threatening situation that I'm put into.

0:44:080:44:12

Daniel's confident he'll stay calm when faced with the heat of the Den.

0:44:120:44:16

Hopefully, my experience will help me today.

0:44:170:44:21

After putting all my time into this for 12 years, and hopes and dreams,

0:44:210:44:25

investment would be absolutely amazing.

0:44:250:44:28

Hello, Dragons, my name is Daniel Cheddie.

0:44:370:44:40

I'm the owner of Glazesafe Limited,

0:44:400:44:43

and I'm looking for £60,000 for a 10% share of my business.

0:44:430:44:47

I'd like to present to you two award-winning and health and safety

0:44:470:44:51

products that I've designed for working at height.

0:44:510:44:54

Firstly, the Sashmate - window repair tools.

0:44:540:44:57

They're patented, trademarked and industry-recommended.

0:44:570:45:00

And secondly, the Stronghold -

0:45:000:45:03

mobile anchor point and barrier system.

0:45:030:45:06

I've been lucky enough to be a full-time firefighter for 15 years

0:45:060:45:09

now, and have been in the glazing industry ever since

0:45:090:45:12

I joined the family business.

0:45:120:45:14

At 19 years old, I had little experience,

0:45:140:45:16

but I was still sent out to do all the window repairs alone.

0:45:160:45:21

Almost all of which required scaffolds.

0:45:210:45:24

Finances meant we didn't have those options,

0:45:240:45:26

and so I was told to, "Stop moaning, just get the job done,

0:45:260:45:29

"and bring the money back."

0:45:290:45:31

After nearly falling out of windows, nearly dropping windows,

0:45:310:45:34

I realised there must be something I could make to help me.

0:45:340:45:38

The result was the Sashmate, and it did exactly that.

0:45:380:45:42

So, following the Sashmate tools,

0:45:420:45:44

a leading company was led to me with an issue they had -

0:45:440:45:47

how to work around an opening at height.

0:45:470:45:50

My solution is the Stronghold.

0:45:500:45:53

It can be used for any work at height, for windows,

0:45:530:45:56

lifts and building maintenance.

0:45:560:45:58

It has helped to win one company a £1 million installation contract,

0:45:580:46:03

saving their client £77,000 on scaffolds.

0:46:030:46:07

The last year, I sold 75 Sashmate tools, 150 accessories,

0:46:070:46:12

and eight Strongholds.

0:46:120:46:15

So, I hope, like me and my customers,

0:46:150:46:17

you can see the huge potential these

0:46:170:46:19

products have to save a lot of lives.

0:46:190:46:21

Thank you very much, Dragons.

0:46:210:46:23

Hoping the Dragons will snap up his deal is Daniel Cheddie,

0:46:250:46:29

with two safety products -

0:46:290:46:31

one that holds a window in place during a repair,

0:46:310:46:34

and the other that is designed to keep workers safe at height.

0:46:340:46:37

He's asking the £60,000 in return for 10% of his company.

0:46:370:46:42

First with the questions is Jenny Campbell,

0:46:440:46:47

who seems baffled by Daniel's day job.

0:46:470:46:51

-I heard you say that you're a full-time fireman...

-I am.

0:46:510:46:53

..but then also you'd been employed in the family glazing business

0:46:530:46:56

since you were 19. So, which one of those is it?

0:46:560:46:59

-It's everything.

-So you are a full-time fireman?

0:46:590:47:01

I'm a full-time firefighter and the director and designer of these

0:47:010:47:05

-award-winning products.

-Yeah.

-I also have a glazing business.

0:47:050:47:07

I specialise in repairs, so these are for me and my colleagues.

0:47:070:47:12

-OK.

-All full-time.

-Yeah.

-Unfortunately.

0:47:120:47:14

-Actually, you're working 96 hours a week or something?

-Yeah.

0:47:140:47:18

Daniel, can I ask, how much do these cost?

0:47:180:47:20

This whole set as you see it now is £2,820 currently.

0:47:200:47:25

What's it costing you to make?

0:47:250:47:27

That would be 1,152 with some parts that we buy in,

0:47:270:47:32

some soft equipment that we buy in.

0:47:320:47:34

Are we making those in the UK?

0:47:340:47:35

All made locally to me.

0:47:350:47:37

So far, so good,

0:47:390:47:41

as Daniel reveals an unbending work ethic,

0:47:410:47:43

and margin-friendly inventions.

0:47:430:47:45

And it seems that Peter Jones has already pinpointed a potential route

0:47:470:47:51

to success for the products.

0:47:510:47:53

Daniel, I think it's a great invention,

0:47:550:47:58

and clearly does what it says on the tin.

0:47:580:48:01

But my first thing that hit me straightaway was that this could be

0:48:020:48:06

something that you could license or put into the hire industry or HSS,

0:48:060:48:11

somewhere you let somebody else do the work.

0:48:110:48:13

So, I'm really glad that you've noticed that.

0:48:130:48:16

This is a hire product.

0:48:160:48:18

They've got the contacts already.

0:48:180:48:20

It also allows them to look at the cost of manufacture,

0:48:200:48:23

the fact that you own the patent, the fact that you've got everything,

0:48:230:48:26

but how difficult is it to do something quite similar?

0:48:260:48:29

It's not that difficult.

0:48:300:48:32

I personally think it is, Peter.

0:48:320:48:34

I am a designer. That's where my passion lies.

0:48:340:48:36

I've tried to make it simpler and better so many times, and I can't.

0:48:360:48:41

But that... That's not a good answer,

0:48:410:48:43

because sadly there's also designers that will take this apart,

0:48:430:48:47

and find areas where they can create something potentially better.

0:48:470:48:51

I'm telling you, this is safe, because...

0:48:510:48:54

-Have you got it here, your patent?

-I haven't, I'm afraid.

0:48:540:48:57

I've got all the other proofs of patents that I can show you.

0:48:570:49:00

-See... Oh.

-It's really...

0:49:000:49:02

Why didn't you bring your patent?

0:49:020:49:04

I thought... Sorry,

0:49:040:49:06

but I did think you would want to see proof of patent.

0:49:060:49:09

Daniel, I don't get why you didn't bring the patent.

0:49:110:49:14

That's just introduced a bit of a stunned silence,

0:49:170:49:19

particularly because Peter's idea of licencing, all...

0:49:190:49:23

All, the whole value,

0:49:230:49:25

will sit in that patent.

0:49:250:49:27

Without this crucial piece of paperwork,

0:49:280:49:31

Daniel's pitch abruptly hits the buffers.

0:49:310:49:34

Will Tej Lalvani get him back on track as he turns his attention to

0:49:350:49:39

the company's figures?

0:49:390:49:41

Why have you only sold 75 units?

0:49:430:49:47

-In the last year?

-In the last year.

-I just...

0:49:470:49:49

I haven't focused on sales at all.

0:49:490:49:51

As I say, the sales are, actually, a bonus to keep me designing,

0:49:510:49:55

but I've finished designing,

0:49:550:49:56

I've got these patented now and that was my ultimate goal to get...

0:49:560:49:59

No, no, no. You've got this product which is great and, you know,

0:49:590:50:03

it cuts the cost down. You don't need three people,

0:50:030:50:05

-one person's enough.

-Yeah.

-It's safe.

0:50:050:50:07

So, why haven't you focused on selling that and building

0:50:070:50:11

-up the sales on that?

-Because I was designing this.

0:50:110:50:13

But now this is done, I can actually focus on the sales.

0:50:130:50:16

Daniel, one question.

0:50:190:50:21

-How many stock have you got?

-20 of these strongholds.

0:50:210:50:24

-Yeah.

-And other accessories.

0:50:240:50:26

-Did you have any pre-orders?

-Sorry? No, no, no.

-No pre-orders?

0:50:260:50:29

No. I need stock.

0:50:290:50:31

So, you've got 20 of those ready to go?

0:50:320:50:34

-Yeah.

-But you don't have pre-sales?

0:50:340:50:36

-No.

-So, if I was in your shoes, I would be saying to my agents,

0:50:360:50:40

"I've got this great product coming, here's the sales deal,

0:50:400:50:44

"I want you to go and get pre-orders on them."

0:50:440:50:46

-Yeah.

-But you haven't done any of that.

0:50:460:50:48

You know, you're a very, very likeable guy,

0:50:480:50:50

and very investable from that perspective.

0:50:500:50:54

But I'm wondering if you've got entrepreneurial freeze.

0:50:540:50:56

-Are you a salesman?

-I'm not a salesman, no.

0:50:580:51:00

-Definitely not.

-Are you saying you can't do that?

0:51:000:51:03

I can. Of course, I can,

0:51:030:51:04

but I've never had any sales experience at all.

0:51:040:51:07

As Daniel admits to a gaping hole in his entrepreneur's toolkit,

0:51:100:51:15

his hopes for investment are hanging by a thread.

0:51:150:51:18

But will Deborah Meaden with her track record in building trade

0:51:190:51:23

investments want to dust off her hard hat for this one?

0:51:230:51:27

I'm sitting here quietly thinking, "Well, actually, licencing,

0:51:300:51:33

"I can't really think about, because I haven't seen the patent."

0:51:330:51:36

But the sales haven't really picked up.

0:51:360:51:38

Now, I'll tell you why that worries me,

0:51:380:51:40

because the construction industry is one of those spaces where if people see it and love it,

0:51:400:51:45

they're going to have to have it.

0:51:450:51:46

This is visual. This isn't tucked away somewhere.

0:51:460:51:49

-Yeah.

-This is something that people walk past and think,

0:51:490:51:51

"Oh, look at that. That's brilliant.

0:51:510:51:53

-"Where did you get that from?"

-Yeah.

-"I need one."

0:51:530:51:55

What I'm worried about is there's been no sign of that.

0:51:550:51:58

I'm really sorry, Daniel.

0:51:590:52:01

I'm just thinking, there must be something that I've forgotten to

0:52:010:52:04

tell you that will change your mind.

0:52:040:52:06

And he says he's not a salesman.

0:52:060:52:08

-He's very persuasive.

-He says he's not a salesman.

0:52:080:52:10

-He is very persuasive.

-I'm just talking from the heart, honestly.

0:52:100:52:13

-Yeah.

-I think the fact that this has saved one company two million on

0:52:130:52:17

scaffold, it's won them a ten-year contract.

0:52:170:52:20

They had five blocks of flats, 24 stories each,

0:52:200:52:24

and they had to update every single opener,

0:52:240:52:27

and everything was safe without scaffold.

0:52:270:52:29

You've stopped me saying those two words.

0:52:290:52:31

-I'm not saying I won't say them in a minute.

-No, no, fair enough.

-But I'm going to go quiet.

0:52:310:52:35

I'm glad I've kept you going a little bit longer.

0:52:350:52:38

By summoning up all his inner salesman,

0:52:380:52:42

Daniel douses the Dragons' flames of doubt for now.

0:52:420:52:45

Has he swung into action just in time

0:52:450:52:48

to inspire an investment from Peter Jones?

0:52:480:52:53

Daniel, it's a great product.

0:52:530:52:55

But I sit here in this chair to look for people that I can invest in and

0:52:560:53:00

businesses I can get behind and look to where I can help,

0:53:000:53:03

where I can add value, and at the same time, think, "Right,

0:53:030:53:06

"where's the future of this business?"

0:53:060:53:08

And I don't see the business.

0:53:120:53:14

I genuinely believe that you should license this to people that will do

0:53:170:53:21

a really good job for you,

0:53:210:53:23

so, sadly, I'm going to tell you that I'm out.

0:53:230:53:27

Peter Jones struggles to get fired up by the deal,

0:53:290:53:33

and is the first Dragon to head for the exit.

0:53:330:53:36

And Tej Lalvani is ready to have his say.

0:53:370:53:40

When I want to invest in a company,

0:53:420:53:44

I need to be excited about the product, obviously.

0:53:440:53:47

For some reason, it doesn't excite me.

0:53:500:53:52

The other aspect is the number of sales you've done is a bit concerning.

0:53:560:53:59

So, I wish you the best, but I'm out.

0:54:010:54:03

Daniel, your pitch, your explanation,

0:54:050:54:10

all the patents you've got,

0:54:100:54:12

you're miles and miles ahead of anybody I've seen for a while.

0:54:120:54:16

Would you say that...

0:54:180:54:21

if I wanted to invest, it would be a punt?

0:54:210:54:24

On 60,000, it would be a punt.

0:54:240:54:26

I'll make you an offer.

0:54:280:54:29

OK.

0:54:290:54:31

Far half the money,

0:54:310:54:32

but I want 20%.

0:54:320:54:34

So, if one of the other Dragons wants to come in with me, it is a punt.

0:54:340:54:38

Catching the Den by surprise,

0:54:400:54:43

Touker Suleyman throws Daniel a safety net in the form of an offer,

0:54:430:54:47

but for only half the money and even that at twice the total equity the

0:54:470:54:52

entrepreneur wanted to give away.

0:54:520:54:55

Will Deborah Meaden,

0:54:550:54:57

who was earlier pulled back from the point of no return,

0:54:570:55:00

also see a window of opportunity?

0:55:000:55:02

Daniel, my gut instinct is telling me, there's a market,

0:55:020:55:06

it's just not huge,

0:55:060:55:08

and the fact that enough people in the construction industry have seen

0:55:080:55:11

this by now, I should have heard about it.

0:55:110:55:13

I should have heard it in the bars.

0:55:140:55:16

Somebody should have been telling me about it.

0:55:160:55:18

So, I'm really sorry, really sorry, but I won't be investing, Daniel.

0:55:180:55:22

-I'm out.

-Thank you, Deborah.

0:55:220:55:23

As Deborah Meaden ditches the deal,

0:55:250:55:28

Daniel's prospects hinge on Jenny Campbell -

0:55:280:55:33

either matching Touker Suleyman with half the money for 20%

0:55:330:55:37

or making a rival bid of her own.

0:55:370:55:40

I'm musing over, you know, has this product got legs?

0:55:420:55:46

Is it going to take off?

0:55:460:55:47

But it is a bit of a leap in the dark,

0:55:490:55:51

and you do need some help on the commercial side.

0:55:510:55:54

-Yeah.

-And part of me is going, "No, just don't do this," you know.

0:55:540:55:57

But there's also a bigger part saying,

0:55:590:56:02

"Why don't we give this a go?"

0:56:020:56:04

I think we can do something with this.

0:56:060:56:09

So I will offer you half the money

0:56:140:56:16

for 10%.

0:56:160:56:18

OK.

0:56:190:56:21

Touker, is there any room for negotiation on that?

0:56:230:56:27

OK.

0:56:270:56:29

You deserve a break.

0:56:290:56:31

And I will budge on my 20%...

0:56:320:56:35

..but it will be 15.

0:56:370:56:38

My revised offer would be to match that.

0:56:410:56:44

Now the two Dragons who have made offers

0:56:470:56:50

are in sync with their equity bids.

0:56:500:56:52

But as they want 30% of the company,

0:56:520:56:55

Daniel has a tough decision to make.

0:56:550:56:57

Could you reduce the percentage to 12% each?

0:56:570:57:01

It's a punt.

0:57:080:57:11

It is.

0:57:110:57:12

OK. I accept your deal.

0:57:170:57:18

-Great.

-Super.

0:57:180:57:20

-Fantastic.

-Thank you.

0:57:200:57:21

Thank you very much.

0:57:210:57:23

-Thank you, all.

-Well done.

-Well done, Daniel.

0:57:250:57:27

-Congratulations. Good luck.

-Thank you. See you.

0:57:270:57:30

After a bumpy ride in the Den, Daniel eventually triumphs,

0:57:300:57:34

and secures the backing of two top-notch Dragons.

0:57:340:57:39

I'm really excited about the future,

0:57:390:57:42

to see these products all over the world, save some lives.

0:57:420:57:45

It feels amazing.

0:57:450:57:47

And then maybe send a letter to Peter and Deborah to say,

0:57:470:57:50

"Ha-ha, you missed out."

0:57:500:57:52

The Den has always attracted a rich variety of businesses,

0:57:580:58:01

and never more than tonight where we've had somersaults,

0:58:010:58:05

stunts and smoothies, which unfortunately didn't do the trick.

0:58:050:58:09

Ultimately, it's the people and the product that really capture the

0:58:090:58:12

Dragons' attention, and Poppy the dog,

0:58:120:58:14

and firemen Daniel Cheddie proved that perfectly,

0:58:140:58:18

as they walked away with investment.

0:58:180:58:20

Coming up next time...

0:58:220:58:24

Right now,

0:58:240:58:25

you have absolutely no negotiating tools in here whatsoever.

0:58:250:58:30

You've made it impossible to invest.

0:58:300:58:34

That feels like spray and pray to me,

0:58:340:58:36

and you need to pray at the moment.

0:58:360:58:38

That's not good news. You need to be a little bit less greedy and start

0:58:380:58:41

-sharing.

-This is a bit of a mess.

0:58:410:58:43

Enthusiasm, passion, drive, you've got it.

0:58:430:58:47

I think you've got a chance here.

0:58:470:58:49

-They loved us, didn't they?

-They did, yeah.

0:58:490:58:52

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