Episode 14 Dragons' Den

Tonight, the five multimillionaires are in high spirits.

-Almost every pitch should start like this, shouldn't it?

-Yeah.

Breathing fire, now.

HE CHUCKLES

But as another batch of entrepreneurs

takes a shot at investment...

You've made a mistake.

It's a small business.

-Tiny.

-Really?

..some will raise the bar...

It's a massive vision, what you have, which I laud you for.

..some will be served home truths.

I looked at you all and I thought, "You all look perfectly sane."

-1%?

-Yes.

-1%?

-Yes, 1%.

-I don't get out of bed for 1%!

But as closing time approaches in the Den...

Before you make a decision, I'm thinking of revising my offer.

I'm torn between the business and you.

..will anyone be toasting success?

I really like it.

And that's why I'm going to make you an offer.

Welcome to Dragons' Den.

When those lift doors open, nervous entrepreneurs come

face-to-face with five fiery multimillionaires.

They have just one chance to secure an investment or leave with nothing.

First to face the Dragons are Matthaus Ittner

and Paul Varga from Austria,

and Tolu Ogunsina from Nigeria, who met at university.

Matthaus is taking care of all the numbers.

Tolu is building the products,

and I myself put everything together in a nice way.

Hi. I'm Paul.

Hi, I'm Matthaus.

Hi, I'm Tolu and we are the three co-founders of Playbrush.

With Playbrush we are helping kids with their tooth-brushing

by converting it to a fun and instructional game.

And today, we are here to ask you, the Dragons,

for £100,000 to help us boost our marketing in the UK.

And in return we are offering you 1% of our business.

-1%?

-Yes.

-1%?

-Yes.

-1%?

-Yes, 1%.

So why have we started Playbrush in the first place?

We were inspired by my little godchild who, like most kids,

is not particularly keen on tooth-brushing,

and was therefore causing his mum a lot of annoying troubles.

Playbrush is a smart device which transforms any normal toothbrush

into a gaming controller.

You just plug it onto the toothbrush,

connect it via Bluetooth to a smartphone or tablet,

and while brushing teeth, you play fun and motivational games.

We have sold 100,000 devices so far, within only 1½ years after launch.

We've closed a significant deal with Unilever,

so the Playbrush comes with branded, high-quality toothbrushes.

So we are now here to get the Dragons on board

and basically bring...

..Playbrush in every bathroom in the United Kingdom.

So we now want you to have a go, try it out, and see how it works.

-I'll try it out.

-Fantastic.

Matthaus Ittner, Paul Varga and Tolu Ogunsina

are hoping to extract £100,000 from a Dragon.

-So when the arrow turns right, you have to brush.

-Who am I?

I think I'm on the right.

In return, they're offering 1% of their app-based business

which teaches children to clean their teeth

by connecting their toothbrushes to tablets.

But the £10 million valuation

is already brushing Touker Suleyman up the wrong way.

You've come in here wanting £100,000 for 1%?

Yes.

I don't get out of bed for 1%.

So, let's get to the point, guys - tell me how big you are.

In 2016, we had 1.2 million turnover.

-And now we've already turned over 2 million for this year.

-Yeah.

And...we have happy to obviously,

negotiate about the stake and the amount.

So 1.2 million, gross profit is how much?

So last year it was around 20%.

-So 240,000?

-Yup.

Net profit?

-No net profit.

-Loss?

-Loss.

-How much?

-800,000?

-Yeah.

-How much?

-800,000 euros.

-How much are you going to lose this year?

-Less than last year.

But how much less, 1 less?

500,000 is projected now.

We are seeking first profits in year-end 2019.

And then we'll run it as a profitable company.

You are burning money like a... big tech company.

So where is the money going?

Mainly in technology. It's the software side, the data side.

The new products we are building.

Huge losses revealed, but also the reason behind them -

investment in technology aimed at securing big future profits.

But Tej Lalvani is more concerned

with where their income has come from so far.

I'm a little confused on your sales and your business model.

I mean, you've done 1.2 million sales last year,

but I don't quite understand, have you had any sales in the UK?

-£100,000 max.

-So only about £100,000 in the UK but nothing much.

-Where do your sales come from, which countries?

-France and Germany.

-So do you have a licensing deal with Unilever?

-Yes.

Core branding and licensing.

Right, so, then how much of that 1.2 million has come from that deal?

Almost 70%.

What is the licensing deal?

Three elements, we sell the hardware with a margin.

And then there is a software component.

And the third bit is a software maintenance part.

So where it's recurring revenue on the software maintenance.

OK, so you've had an upfront licensing deal,

but the bit that you'll continue to make money on is software?

Yes.

OK. Because what I'm trying to understand is the potential

ongoing within the license, because I've got to tell you,

when you came in said £100,000 for 1%, I looked at you all

and I thought, "You all look perfectly sane."

Deborah Meaden reveals the money spinning potential of the

recurring revenue on their licensing deal with a big household name.

But as that goes some way to appease her doubts

over that £10 million valuation, Jenny Campbell just isn't buying it.

When an entrepreneur comes in the Den, I'm looking for a product

and entrepreneur where I can invest and contribute to your success.

And offering 1% of your business,

I feel like a very small fish in a pond full of lots of other fish.

And I actually don't like your product, I'm afraid.

I'm surprised it says that dentists recommend it,

because I think you should have a level of seriousness

to brushing your teeth.

So, I wish you all the best, but I'm out.

Jenny Campbell is the first Dragon out,

at odds with the concept behind the product.

But Tej Lalvani, the head of a global vitamin empire,

is feeling a certain synergy with the dental health entrepreneurs.

I think...you guys are smart.

And the product is interesting.

In the UK, my company has distribution

in all the major retailers.

It would require quite a bit of my time,

but I can get you access to all the retail points that you need to.

So I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to offer you £100,000, the full amount,

but a 10% of the business.

OK, thank you very much.

An offer from Tej Lalvani,

who can see a ready-made market for the product.

But it comes at a price,

ten times higher than the entrepreneurs wanted to give away.

But before Deborah Meaden makes up her mind,

she's got some digging to do on their plans for future investment.

Other than the £100,000 you're asking for today,

are you going to need more money?

It would be part of a bigger round we are currently doing.

So I'm glad I asked that.

So what's the raise this time round?

1.5 million.

So post this round, what will the shareholding look like?

There are three of us, the founders,

and the employees will have around 60%.

Our current investors already have 25%, 26%

and the new investors will also participate.

OK.

I'm really interested in the licensing piece.

However, you have made it quite hard

because you're not going to be able to agree to massive percentages

because we're in the middle of a fundraise.

But I am going to make you an offer...

..for all of the money.

And I want 5% of the business.

Deborah Meaden undercuts Tej Lalvani's bid by half,

as she discovers the financial constraints

dictating the trio's terms.

Will Touker Suleyman also want a piece

of the tooth-brushing innovation?

I'm already in this market with a teething toy

which we'll now put it into a brush.

We have the distribution, we have the warehousing, offices

if you really wanted to, in London.

I've got the infrastructure to do a lot of things for you.

So there's a lot to create a proper business very quickly in the UK.

If I'm going to offer you all that, plus my knowledge of sourcing...

..what's that worth to you?

You've gone silent, boys.

No... No, it's exactly this 1% that we are offering.

Hold on, hold on, so you want me to put 1% for 100,000

and to give you all the rest for free?

I think I can add a lot of value to you.

And I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to give you all the money,

but I want 10%.

Touker Suleyman joins the Dragons' bidding war,

matching Tej Lalvani's offer of 10% for all the money.

But tech giant Peter Jones is yet to have his say

on the child-friendly smart device.

I like the fact that you are a software business.

I've spent many, many years developing software.

We're able to take a brand

and put into multiple countries around the world.

I've spent millions on that.

And I love the technology,

and I think where you going with it is definitely the future.

I really like it.

And that's why I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to offer you all of the money...

..for 5%.

-ALL:

-Thank you.

Um, before you make a decision, I'm thinking of revising my offer.

I shall actually think I can add a lot more value

than the other Dragons have offered.

We're launching a product in the US,

we're in the process of launching a dental vitamin-enriched product

in the UK, so I think we're completely aligned.

I'll drop the 10%...

..to 6%.

Do want to go to the wall and have a chat?

-Yes, please!

-Thank you.

With four offers up for grabs,

the toothbrush trio have a lot to consider.

THEY CONFER

I'm not sure.

Peter Jones and Deborah Meaden are each seeking a 5% stake,

Tej Lalvani 6% and Touker Suleyman 10%.

Time for the entrepreneurs to decide their fate.

OK. Thank you very much.

We really much appreciate it.

But we cannot accept your offers as they stand.

We have a counter offer, especially for Deborah.

What we could offer is a board advisor position in the company,

obviously no financial commitments now,

but just to bring in your expertise and help us.

Am I working for you now?

THEY LAUGH

-No, you're advising us.

-You're advising us four times a year.

You can't do that, guys. You're in here for investment.

You can't come in here for advice.

-No, you can't. No, you can't do that.

-Apologies.

So what do you want to do, are you accepting...? What are you doing?

Then we cannot accept.

We can go up to 1.25% for the 100,000.

Wow!

Is that your ceiling? Well, then...

I'm really sorry, guys. I really wish you all the best but I'm out.

Guys, I'm out.

1.25% is not doable, particularly with 800,000 losses,

and the value that I was going to bring, we're too far apart, so...

I wish you all the best, but I'm out.

It's really disappointing.

That's definitely it - 1.25 is your maximum counter?

We... Because it's already committed to a certain valuation.

-We can't change it.

-OK, I have to say sadly that as a result, I'm out.

-ALL:

-Thank you very much.

With the entrepreneurs refusing to budge on their equity,

their brush with the Dragons doesn't end well

and they leave the Den with nothing.

That was annoying.

I thought they would counter it with 3%, even. But...

It was never there. They never had the flexibility to do that.

Next into the Den tonight

are business partners Mike Fisher and inventor Shane Monaghan...

..with a gadget that targets bad backs.

I've been a doctor for 25 years and I've flown all over the world

and lived in the most extraordinary places for one thing.

I fix pain.

The pair are equally confident about their ability to fix an investment.

The fact of the matter is we've got this.

Hello, Dragons. My name's Mike Fisher

and I'm here with my friend and partner, Shane Murnaghan.

And we're here to introduce you to our product, GRAVITY.

We're looking for £25,000 for 10% of our business.

Back pain is a hidden epidemic of misery

and complicated solutions.

I know this from over 20 years as a therapist, fixing spines.

That's puts me in a great position to understand

and to design this system of GRAVITY.

The secret is if you really want to recover spinal pain,

you have to work at both ends of the spine

at the same time, simultaneously.

And GRAVITY is the best system available to be able to do that.

It is a two-piece system.

One piece goes on the neck,

and the other piece goes on the sacrum,

which is the middle of your pelvis.

And, in between these two positions, it holds the spine still

and it simultaneously allows the body to start to unwind.

You put these in place and lie down on the ground.

And this starts to rock

and this starts to rock with your pelvis

and they talk to each other.

It rocks it all the way right down to your pelvis.

And then you just get up and walk away.

This is the only product you lie down and do nothing

and get massive results.

So, if you're in a time of pain and strain,

this can become your best friend.

So we've got some samples for you today to have yourselves

and maybe invite somebody to have a lie on the bench and feel...

I'll lie on the bench, cos I need it.

He needs to lie down!

THEY LAUGH

On the table from Shane Murnaghan and Mike Fisher...

That's it.

..10% of their company,

selling their invention to combat back pain...

-Just scoop this under the back of the neck.

-Oh!

..in return for £25,000.

-I think I've got the knack of it.

-OK.

-Oh!

He's a new man.

Taster session over, Touker Suleyman is keen to find out

more about the twosome's credentials.

Tell me about yourselves first, before we go any further.

Shane. where do you come into all this, you're a therapist?

Yes, I'm a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine.

I've been a working therapist for over 25 years

and it brought me to this after I broke my own back in 2008,

which created the necessity to design the system.

And my background is 30 years in business,

sports and sports wholesale.

OK. Let's hear about the business -

how much have you turned over so far?

We've turned over just under £80,000.

The first sort of five, six months, 20,000. Next 12 months, 36,000.

And then this last three months, we've done 15,000, 16,000.

There's been a sort of steady progression

in the last three months.

And what does it sell for?

-£99.

-How much?

-£99.

-What does it cost you?

It costs us...

just under £18 to manufacture.

So it's a good margin.

But it's a very, very niche product.

It's got to need a lot of intense, personal selling.

Despite a healthy margin, Touker Suleyman diagnoses

an uphill struggle to achieve big sales for the product.

But Deborah Meaden seems more worried about

whether the invention actually works.

I am your absolute target market.

I had a broken pelvis from a riding accident many years ago,

I have a weekly massage to try and get myself back aligned

and, actually, this isn't going to replace that.

This is the thing in between.

But I've got a cupboard full of product

that claims to release that tension.

I'm not going to buy any more until I'm absolutely told that they work.

-Fed up of not getting the answers.

-I'm fed up of spending a fortune.

Do you know, I deal with this every day.

It's a huge problem to get the confidence of the general public

-because so much doesn't work.

-But couldn't I get it wrong?

If you lie on that in the wrong place,

-couldn't I cause myself more problems?

-I don't believe you can.

If you actually look at the keystone itself,

if a person finds it uncomfortable, well, you peel it off,

the hard plastic piece,

and you use only the soft silicone piece which we recommend.

People with back strain have great sensitivity

in the lower back and their neck,

and they're very acutely aware of anything in that place.

-But that's exactly my point.

-Sure.

I wouldn't know, "Is this is good uncomfortable,

"or is this bad uncomfortable?"

When people say it feels uncomfortable,

we'll say just use one side and if there's any discomfort,

just adjust just a little bit

because your body is adjusting as soon as you step onto this.

The passionate entrepreneur

demonstrates total faith in his creation.

Now, Jenny Campbell wants to know if the duo have covered THEIR backs

and protected their product?

-Have you got some IP over this?

-We have all the IP over this.

-Yes.

What does that mean, you've got IP over what?

I've designed and completely applied the patents to the curves,

the surface, the inventive step of this whole design system,

it's unique in the fact that it's a two-part spinal system

and we've spent the first year really protecting our IP

and looking for design protection as well.

You have a full patent over the... over each object?

-Patent pending in the UK.

-A patent pending?

It's pending but it's imminent.

Do you have a patent agreed

-in any country around the world at the moment?

-No, we haven't.

But we've got design registrations agreed around the world.

Jenny Campbell hits a sore spot with the entrepreneurs

as she reveals a lack of protection on their product.

And Peter Jones wants to know

if the device has endorsement from the medical profession.

Has this been approved by anybody clinically?

We are in the process of doing approval trials.

That's what I felt you were going to say.

Yeah, it is very serious and exciting, Peter.

It is, but the worry that I've got is that you've gone out

with a product already and you're trying to sell it

without actually any level of proof that it works.

Well, I suppose the proof of concept that we have is the trials

that I've done with it over the last three years, in clinic,

and also the sales we've been getting in the returns.

Yeah, that's not proof because that could've been done just

with a normal bed with a neck brace and something up your bottom.

That's a very reasonable statement to make

because in yoga you have semi-supine position,

-where you just sit that way with a book under your head.

-Exactly.

-But it doesn't have the same effect whatsoever.

-That's my point, though.

That's not clinical trials to actually prove

that this actually does what it says on the tin.

The pressure is building on the duo as they admit to Peter Jones

they currently don't have the data to support their claims.

Which has set alarm bells ringing

for health supplements boss Tej Lalvani.

-Guys, my company is based around science.

-Yes.

About fact, about research and about clinical trials.

And our products, a lot of our products are clinically proven,

-double-blind, placebo-controlled trials...

-Yes.

..with major universities, to show the effectiveness of the product.

And you can't talk about the product's benefits

if you haven't got that research.

Now, I'm a very evidence-based man,

I need to see why it works and how it works.

And that's a problem.

And just on those reasons alone, as much as I love back products,

because I do get back pain now and then...

..I'm going to have to decline and say I'm out.

Tej Lalvani is the first Dragon to pass on the deal,

unwilling to invest in an unproven health device.

And that lack of clinical evidence

is also making Jenny Campbell feel ill at ease.

Do you still feel confident in going to the market

with products that have not got a medical qualification on,

and for something that affects the back and the spine?

I do, yes. Yeah.

There must be an element of risk there, in terms of somebody saying,

"You actually didn't fix it, you made it worse."

I've been in this market for 20 years,

seeing people with serious spine injury,

and with respect to the trials that are coming on board

with the Chartered Physiotherapy and their clients,

these trials will be hundreds, 200 people using it

and coming back and giving their feedback.

That's great. I just feel that that probably needs to happen first.

OK. Look, I'll tell you where I am.

I am not going to help you propel a product that's not proven.

I think that's walking into a very difficult area

that could become quite sticky.

I wish you all the best on your journey, but I'm out.

Guys, I should want this,

but without you being able to tell me that it absolutely works,

I couldn't get involved.

So, I'm out.

Guys, I think the most important thing is you're here prematurely.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be investing today and I'm out.

Three more Dragons are down,

deterred by the lack of scientific validation of the product.

Will the last Dragon standing, Peter Jones,

be prepared to heal the damaged pitch?

I think the best thing to do is when you have that back pain

is to see a professional and take professional, expert advice.

With respect, sir, I am a professional

and have been doing it for over 20 years

and I have a very solid record of recovering people

-from serious back pain.

-But you meet them?

Ah, but meeting somebody is not all it takes

to get a moving spine to work.

It is actually down to what the spine does

and how it resolves its own characteristics.

So I don't need you, then. I don't need you.

That's right, you don't need me,

you need the product, that's the difference.

This virtually makes me redundant.

The big thing here is that you have become preacher of your own product

and that is, for me, not good.

And the reason why it's not good

is because you're trying to get investment.

You need to be far more credible

and come in with something that says,

"Dragons, this is the research that's been conducted

"over the last 12 months -

these are the results,"

and then back it up with your claims.

And, Peter, if that were to be so in 12 months' time,

if we were working together and that exploded it,

wouldn't that put credibility on our enthusiasm and our sincerity now

-going into these trials?

-It really would. It would make it believable.

It would. But it's impossible to invest in something like this

without the clinical trial.

So I'm going to say good luck with it.

I'm out.

Thank you very much, Dragons.

-Good luck.

-Good luck, guys.

Well, they fought to the bitter end

but, not for the first time in the Den,

the entrepreneurs' lack of ability to officially back up their claims

cost them any hope of a Dragon partnership.

MIKE: That was a grilling.

-Could have been worse.

-I don't think so!

The world's changing, and people object to studies

as much as people approve of them.

I gave up trusting reports a long time ago.

I believe in results.

You can't do that, guys, you're in here for investment.

You're not here for advice.

The Den's been in fiery form tonight.

I am not going to help you propel a product that's not proven.

Hold up, hold up, so you want me to put 1% for 100,000

and to give you all the rest for free?

But as the Dragons unleashed their wrath on our final entrepreneurs...

My gut instinct is telling me this market is not huge.

To take a risk at this stage with so little

is going to be a challenge for me.

Where were you going to raise the extra money to build all this?

I've no idea. Don't know.

There's still time to strike a deal.

You are very bubbly and engaging,

you're a very investable entrepreneur.

The more I drink, the more interested I get.

I'm going to make you an offer.

But it comes with a huge price.

Next into the Den tonight

is fledgling products designer Sophia Ferguson...

..who wants a Dragon on board to make her baby business boom.

I need that extra step to take us to where it needs to go.

And I can't do that on my own now.

Hi, I'm Sophia and I'm here today to look for investment of £50,000

for 20% share in my business.

Tickle Tots is my brand of modern cloth nappies

and accessories designed for adventurous tots.

And this is an opportunity to support a start-up

which has doubled its sales in the first 18 months of trading.

Growing up in rural mid-Wales,

I've always had a love for the environment.

In the UK alone, we send 1 million tonnes

of disposable nappy waste to landfill every year.

But for every child in full-time cloth nappies,

that saves 5,500 disposables from entering landfill.

When my daughter was born, I really wanted to do my part

and use cloth nappies.

However, I really struggled to find a cloth system that worked for us.

So I hit my sewing machine and Tickle Tots was born.

The features include rise snaps to adjust the size

to last your baby from birth all the way up to potty training.

We have hook-and-loop closing for quick and speedy changes.

Our new nappy, which we recently launched,

has a waterproof shell which can be wiped clean, reused,

and a new set of boosters snapped in.

The UK nappy market is worth £817 million

with a global market worth of 43 billion.

I'd now like to bring you some samples

and open the floor to any questions.

On a mission to convert parents from disposable nappies to cloth...

Thank you, Sophia.

..Sophia Ferguson is looking for £50,000 for 20% of her company.

First up, dad of two young children Tej Lalvani,

who's poised for a lesson in the cloth nappy basics.

I love the quality, it's really, really good.

The fabric, the materials and it looks very nice as well.

I just want to understand how this works.

Basically, before babies are onto solids,

it just goes straight in the wash with an extra rinse cycle,

it's absolutely fine.

Once they go on solids, you can buy a flushable liner.

You can get bamboo ones, which is a thin layer,

literally goes in here, all the moisture wicks through to the core,

-and then it catches the solids.

-Right.

So you said you'd doubled sales in 18 months.

Talk to me about that journey.

From the first year, we took sales of about £8,000 from the UK.

And made a net loss of about £100.

This year, we've taken over £23,000

and we'll end up with a net profit of around 3,000.

And have all your sales this year still been in the UK?

No, we're now in Italy and Germany.

-I would actually say it was probably 60% UK, 40% Europe.

-OK.

With a high-quality product and early signs of growth,

Sophia seems to be meeting with Jenny Campbell's approval.

Now, Tej Lalvani wants to get to the bottom

of whether the mark-up on her product is just as impressive.

What is your retail price of this?

So, of the original design, it's £16.99,

whereas our new design comes in at £18.99.

-What is your cost?

-About £6.

-And that's made in the UK?

-No, they're currently made in China.

-And what's your wholesale price?

-So, on the nappies, it's £10.50.

Wow, so your margin's only about £4.

At the moment, a small fry for the manufacturers,

and the more we can order, the better the pricing can come.

At the moment, I airfreight it in, so that price is landed cost,

whereas if I can seafreight it, again,

my margins are going to improve.

Have you approached the big retailers?

I approached John Lewis recently, and waiting to hear back.

But I haven't been confident enough to approach the really big boys yet,

because I need to iron out the manufacturing side of things.

What's the problem with your manufacturing?

I'm sure with every start-up,

cash flow is always a bit of a tricky one.

So I could never order enough stock to keep me going for six months

in order to place the next order.

So now, we've literally got final samples landed yesterday

from a new manufacturer, which is going to give us a 30-day lead time.

What do they charge you to print a metre of fabric?

Well, it's coming in at about £1,000 for 200 metres.

-So he's charging you £5 a metre?

-Yes.

-That's expensive.

-It is.

It's probably...

-..this outer fabric here.

-Yes, it's a waterproof breathable fabric.

No more than £2 a metre, £2.50.

Um, look, I think...

..you've got something. I like the product.

The problem is, have you got a business that can grow?

It's a small business, tiny.

-Really?

-Well, £23,000 turnover is tiny.

Identifying weaknesses in her supply chain,

manufacturing guru Touker Suleyman

is wondering whether there's potential in Sophia's product.

Have her non-disposable nappies whetted the appetite

of a very green Deborah Meaden?

It's interesting for me, because whilst it's clearly a baby product,

it's actually an environmental issue.

I've got a baby, I need nappies,

I can't bear the waste that's going into landfill.

The actual cloth itself, what's its environmental process

and its environmental credentials?

Or is it purely and simply that you can keep it for longer?

It's the fact that you can keep it for longer,

even taking into account the washing.

Including the production of the raw materials themselves,

these were still coming out as better for the environment

than a disposable nappy.

So you don't foresee scare stories in the future, saying,

"Oh, my goodness, we've now gone into cloth

"and look what terrible things that's doing to the world?"

No, I think that was another driving force to using bamboo,

because it's sustainable.

You know, it's quickly grown and there's natural antibacterial

properties to it, so there's lots of added bonuses that way as well.

A confident response on the environmental credentials

of the product from the eco-entrepreneur.

And now it looks like Peter Jones has some inside information

about the nappy industry.

I think I know quite a lot about this marketplace

because my other half, Tara, has got a business

which actually is about to launch.

And one of the big lead products is a nappy.

And I've spent a lot of time understanding, researching,

working in the marketplace.

The market is pretty much owned and predicated by one company,

Procter & Gamble, and all of those brands within that global empire.

What you've created is really great, and I can see you selling a few

into the smaller outlets, which are pretty niche.

But in terms of making this a mainstream product,

I think you haven't got a chance.

I appreciate your comments.

I mean, I think just looking at our competitors

and you can see they're obviously massive, and I think there's room

in the market for somebody else to come and compete against that.

Well, I'm clearly conflicted, but I'm not going to discourage you

from keeping this going because it's beautifully made.

-Thank you.

-It really is.

I just don't believe that this is a big opportunity for scale.

So, sadly, I'm out.

Peter Jones is the first Dragon to dump the deal,

as he raises a conflict of interest

and doubts about the company's prospects.

Will Jenny Campbell, who earlier seemed impressed,

go one step further and make an offer?

I love the product. I'm definitely going to buy some of these

when someone makes me a grandma.

You are very bubbly and engaging, a very investable entrepreneur.

If I was to invest, it's more because I'm investing in you.

You will make a lifestyle business out of it.

But, overall, it's just not an investment.

So I wish you all the best.

Get out there and compete, but I'm out.

This has been battering against the marketplace since it started.

The marketplace has been over here with disposables,

and there's always been that growing market of the environmental issue.

-It's becoming even more pertinent now.

-Yes.

I don't think you expect to own the market.

I expect you want to take a small piece

-of that growing band of people.

-Yes.

But, for me, my gut instinct is telling me this market is not huge.

So, I'm really sorry. I'm out.

Sophia, I'm trying to like the business and I like the product.

But I'm just struggling in terms of the fact

that it's going to take some time to grow the business.

And probably, if I invest my money,

I don't see a return for a very long time.

So, I'm afraid I'm not going to be putting my money in today.

I'm out.

Thank you.

Three more Dragons hang the nappy maker's

investment proposition out to dry.

Now only Touker Suleyman, who already has investments

in the children's market, can rescue the pitch.

It's a difficult one.

I'm torn between the business and you.

-How much money have you put into this?

-About £25,000.

Right, and how do you live? You've got...

I'm currently working two nights a week as a carer,

and my husband works full-time.

If I invest this, my involvement would be huge, to start with.

You need a team round you.

Hmm.

Phew! Difficult one.

I think you need big support.

So I would take over...

..all the commercial side of the business.

-You're responsible for the brand, the designs, the creation.

-OK.

That interest you?

Yes, I would be open to that.

I'm going to make you an offer.

But it comes with a huge price.

So I'll give you all the money.

But I want 50%.

It's a lot.

-OK. Can I...?

-Do you want to think about it?

-Do you mind if I just have a moment?

-Yes.

For Sophia to give away half of her company is an agonising decision.

It's more than double the share she originally had on the table.

But, with a Dragon on board,

could the gains outweigh the cost for the budding entrepreneur?

Um, it's a lot!

Would there be an option to own a bit more later down the line?

-Look, when I get my money back...

-Yes.

-..I'll give you back 10%.

-Yes.

And you'd have control.

-I would like to accept that offer, then.

-Good! OK.

-Well done.

-Thank you.

-Well done!

Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone!

-Well done, Sophia.

-Thank you.

Despite giving away half of her company,

Sophia leaves the Den flushed with success.

I'm so happy for her. Well done, Touker.

That's a big percentage, 50%.

Yes, but we'll soon find out how big this market actually is.

I feel amazing to have Touker on board.

I wanted to keep control of the company,

but I also completely understood what he could offer was fantastic.

He's just going to be perfect for the business.

The final entrepreneur tonight is Stuart Ingram from Aberdeenshire,

who's created a product to please his own taste buds.

There's a lot of craft brewers out there who like beer.

I'm not a beer drinker. I do like gin.

If you're going to make a product,

make something you can drink yourself.

He's hoping the Dragons will share his penchant for his tipple

and get a taste for investment.

Hello, Dragons. My name is Stuart Ingram,

I'm here today to offer you the opportunity

to invest in the brand House Of Elrick.

The opportunity I'm offering you today is the House Of Elrick

spirits range for an offering of £80,000

in exchange for a 6% equity stake.

House Of Elrick is a brand built around my own home,

which is Elrick House, a small estate in Aberdeenshire.

And dates back to the 1720s.

It's got a rich history and heritage

with strong links to Bonnie Prince Charlie

and has been in my own family for the last 70 years.

It happened to come on the market three and a half years ago

and I decided to purchase the premises.

It was at this point, I decided I wanted to try

and create a destination venue.

And part of that was building a restaurant and gin distillery.

Which brings me onto my first product under the brand,

which is a gin.

12 months ago, whilst waiting for the planning applications

to go through, I thought, "Why wait? Let's test the market."

So, based on the links that we have with Bonnie Prince Charlie,

we built a product around the Jacobite rose,

based on Mediterranean citrus and juniper,

with an additive of heather.

And this is the only spirit to use Loch Ness as our water compound.

We launched six months ago and, in that period,

I've sold 2,800 bottles, turning over £85,000.

Thank you for listening. Would you like to join us for a drink?

Definitely.

I've got two different samples here.

A gin tapping into its Scottish heritage

is the proposition from Stuart Ingram.

So the small one is the straight gin, tall one gin and tonic.

He's seeking £80,000 in return for a 6% share of his company.

-Breathing fire now!

-HE LAUGHS

First to see if the business is a real tonic is Peter Jones.

Stuart, I do love sitting in this chair sometimes.

-Almost every pitch should start like this, shouldn't it?

-Yeah.

-It does help.

-Regardless of what they're selling.

-Stuart, nice back story, actually.

-Thank you.

-The property, is that the property there?

-Yes, so that's Elrick House.

And the business that you're coming in for investment

-and you're pitching, you're not pitching the house, are you?

-No, no.

-It's the spirits business.

-This is the spirits business,

-which has been going for six months.

-Yes.

So let's talk about that then.

-It's a big start, 2,800 bottles, quite a lot.

-Six months, yes.

-What's the price of one of these?

-Retail's £38.50.

And where does that compare to Hendrick's and others?

I'm at the higher end, I'm probably more premium

but then there are other gins that are over £40.

What does it cost to make?

I'm making it, without duty, just over £8 a bottle.

And then, I have to build in £8.44 of duty.

-So it costs you £16.44.

-Effectively per bottle, yes.

And what's the forecast for this year?

So, this year, I'm targeting 8,000 bottles for year one,

and that would give me £250,000 turnover.

And that would generate gross 122, net profit 89,000.

-I tell you what, that's really nice.

-It's a beautiful gin.

So far, so good, as Stuart's drink

and his figures go down a treat with Peter Jones.

And there's more praise on its way from Deborah Meaden,

who's impressed with the way Stuart has packaged his product.

It looks different.

And in a world where there is so much gin,

how memorable it is can make the difference.

You've got the visual in the bottle,

you've got the taste behind that, which is lovely. But...

..£1.3 million?

Valuation.

OK... Um, it just looks quite racy at the moment.

I've taken this product from nothing to the shelf within six months

and I've been six months down the line and seen that growth generate,

and the way that doors are opening at the moment...

So give me numbers going forward.

Year two, I'm projecting sales of 20,000 bottles.

That will generate 640 turnover.

Year three, looking at 40,000 bottles,

that'll be the 1.28 million.

That's great numbers. What's your plan?

How are you going to achieve these numbers

in a really busy marketplace?

Because that's what it has to do to reach your valuation.

Because it's creating a brand,

so I've got other products already lined up to go behind the brand.

I'll have the restaurant, the house itself, for wedding venues.

So I've just created our own tartan for the house,

and then there's the spirit business.

Stuart, you're going to be pulled from all directions.

Trying to get planning for the house, sorting out the restaurant.

You might have a couple of hours on this during the week.

I'm-I'm really, really worried.

While Touker Suleyman is concerned

Stuart's biting off more than he can chew,

Peter Jones is wondering whether those expansion plans

could present a lucrative opportunity for an investor.

-Stuart, how much was the house?

-650,000.

So let's talk about that, then.

This business is based around the House Of Elrick,

a lovely back story.

Owning part of the house, why would you not come in and pitch that?

Or are you willing to talk about that?

I'm willing to talk about that, but I think if I add that in,

that's obviously an increase in what we need for investment.

That makes much more sense to me, if you're happy with that,

because then you're in the House Of Elrick,

it's the whole business.

And where were you going to raise the extra money to build all this?

I've no idea. Don't know.

That's why I'm just doing what I can afford now,

cos I've managed to do this one under my own salary so far.

And what do you do, what's your day job?

Contracts engineer, oil and gas industry. Has been for 17 years.

And you do this at evenings and weekends?

Evenings, weekends, lunchtimes.

Stuart? I am a gin and tonic fan.

I have about 36 on my bar at home.

So it's a massive vision, what you have.

Which I laud you for, you know,

I kind of get all the pieces of the puzzle.

Then on the other side of the coin, I'm thinking,

"Crikey, how are you going to do all this as well as do your day job?"

Where's the flip point of you stop being your engineer

and you put all of you into...?

Probably at the end of this year, I would imagine.

So getting this thing moving fast

and generating the cash is the tipping point for you...

-Correct.

-..to then leave your engineering job

-and focus in all your energies on this?

-Yes.

You mentioned a restaurant.

How big will this restaurant be and what sort of restaurant?

I would like to target rosettes, getting on to Michelin star,

we want to be a sustainable field-to-fork restaurant

using what's grown on the land, in the restaurant.

-Restaurant business is hard as well.

-Extremely hard.

A lot of hard yards ahead of you.

A reality check from Jenny Campbell,

who can see tough times on the horizon.

Could Tej Lalvani be tempted to add the gin business to his portfolio?

Stuart, I like the taste.

I've not invested in any drinks companies as yet,

so I was quite excited when you came with this product.

When I saw the packaging, the presentation

and what you've achieved in six months, it's quite remarkable.

But I think I'm hesitating a little bit.

Because...you're not at that stage yet

where you've built enough momentum.

If you were a year down the line, two years down the line,

and I could see a good month-on-month growth...

But to take a risk at this stage, with so little,

is going to be a challenge for me.

So I wish you all the luck.

But, sadly, I'm out.

Tej Lalvani is the first Dragon out,

unwilling to back a start-up without concrete signs of potential.

And it looks like Deborah Meaden's come to a decision

on whether to give the gin company a shot at success.

For me...

..you've made a mistake.

-OK.

-And it's not in the product.

I would not be exaggerating

if I said to you that, in the last month,

I'd probably had four gin companies asking me

if I would get involved in their business.

But I have got to tell you, not one of them

has dared come up with a valuation of over £1 million.

For me, I haven't heard any indicator

that it's going to make that leap from small craft gin

to something that is going to be worth 1.3 million.

I'm really sorry, but I'm out.

You have done a good job. You have got a dream.

However, if you go into too many dreams at the same time,

you might have a nightmare.

And I'm concerned at the amount of time you'll put into it now

while you still have to work.

I'm not going to invest today, and I'm out.

The pitch is on the rocks,

as Touker Suleyman becomes Dragon number three to ditch the deal.

But Peter Jones is still in play,

and it seems he's keen to shake things up a bit.

The more I drink, the more interested I get.

THEY LAUGH

But you pitched the House Of Elrick.

And you pitched the Bonnie Prince Charlie, and it's all a good story.

But then, when you say, "I've got a property which is 650,000."

To me, it goes together as one.

You were potentially willing to discuss that,

cos you see the whole vision and the big package.

So, on that basis, I'm going to make it difficult and make you an offer.

OK!

I'm going to offer you all of the money, 80,000.

For 10%.

But the 10% includes the property, includes the business.

Yes, including the restaurant and everything?

Well, as the restaurant is built out, I'll also invest 10%,

whatever the cost is of that. But I'll own 10% of everything.

-OK.

-And that's my offer to you.

An offer, at last.

But Peter Jones has upped the ante,

looking for a 10% share of Stuart's complete brand.

Will gin-lover Jenny Campbell serve up a rival bid?

I've been musing over how to do this.

And is it part of the whole thing or is it just part of the gin journey?

My strategy for this business would be

to get you churning out these bottles as fast as possible.

The other stuff doesn't happen until this is driving enough cash.

So I think where my offer would be, Stuart, is for all of the money...

..for just the gin part of the business.

But I would want 12% of your business.

OK.

Thank you for the offer.

I'll take a minute, if that's all right.

Shall I send you some gin over?

It's a tricky decision, with two very different offers on the table.

Jenny Campbell's £80,000 is for 12% of Stuart's gin company.

While Peter Jones is seeking 10% of his brand from top to toe.

OK, thank you for your time and your positive feedback.

I have decided.

-Think I'm going to accept Peter's offer.

-Wow!

-Well done.

-I thought he would.

-Fantastic!

-Oh, well done.

-Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

-Awesome.

-I'm so chuffed.

-Thank you.

It's happy hour for Peter Jones and for the gin man,

who never lost his bottle in the Den.

Congratulations, Peter.

I need a stiff drink after that!

-Well done, Peter.

-Well, thank you.

-Well done.

-I am over the moon.

I knew Peter was the guy for me.

I think my business has potential to be one in a million.

Having Peter on board,

there is every likelihood that I could achieve that.

One missed opportunity and two investments tonight,

bringing an end to this series in the Den,

in which we've welcomed two new fire-breathing Dragons

and had a record number of investments.

Along the way, we've encountered the innovative, the ingenious

and the outright implausible.

Please don't call me Debbie!

-Oh!

-Do I look like a naughty Dragon?

-You've definitely got the waggle on.

-It's all in the hips!

I think it's only fair you're in there with me, Deborah.

If you'd like to all go sit down, we'll just stay here.

-Do a full job, Touker.

-One of your legs looks alive!

Jenny, you won with 620...

We haven't finished yet, we don't finish until I've won.

I don't get out of bed for 1%.

-Have you heard of the sniff test?

-No.

Something doesn't smell right here.

I actually think you're wasting everyone's time.

-I'm exasperated. Are you hearing these words?

-Yeah.

-I have to say, this just isn't good enough.

-Which bit.

-All of it.

-I need a drink.

-Can I finish what I'm going to say?

-Do I interrupt when you speak?

-No, but...

-Please?

-I think you're very investable.

-You've done a fantastic job.

I'm the one Dragon that will take you to where you want to go.

You are both a credit to female entrepreneurship.

-They loved us, didn't they?

-They did, yeah.

The magic of Dragons' Den.