Larry Lamb and Sarah Millican My Life in Books

APPLAUSE

Thank you. Welcome to My Life In Books,

a chance for my guests to share their favourite reads.

With me tonight, actor Larry Lamb,

the famously put-upon Mick Shipman in Gavin And Stacey,

but probably best known as Archie Mitchell in EastEnders,

for which the Soap Awards named him Villain of the Year.

Alongside him, stand-up comedian Sarah Millican.

A couple of years ago, she won Best Newcomer Award

at the Edinburgh Fringe for her show Sarah Millican's Not Nice.

And we'll make it clear that you are nice, you're not a villain.

And even I'm nice when I'm not doing The Weakest Link.

Thank you, both, for joining me.

APPLAUSE

Sarah, did you read a lot as a child?

Whenever my mam, if she went shopping and she couldn't find us,

I would always be in a corner reading a book in like Smith's or whatever,

just be cross-legged in a corner, just working my way into something.

I remember going to the library and I was only allowed four books and I had

to borrow my sister's library card because I used to want more books.

I remember getting reprimanded in the library because I was trying

to take something back that I'd got out earlier that day cos I'd read it through the day.

They said, "You're not allowed to do that." Banished...

-from the library!

-For reading too fast.

-Were you reading from childhood?

-Yeah.

-As a teenager were you reading?

-Yeah, yeah.

My mum got me into reading very early, so I was a bright boy when

I was a youngster, so I was always ahead of the game with reading.

They used to give me extraordinary books.

My grandmother and grandfather on my mother's side were very sort

of proper working-class, educated socialists with an eye to the

future for the young, so they gave me books. Definitely.

Let's start with childhood reads. Larry, you were eight, I understand.

-Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe.

-Yup.

A lifesaver at that time for me. Everything was in meltdown at home.

Why?

Well, my parents were a mismatch and by that stage,

it was almost about to explode completely.

Would you escape to your bedroom and read

-while all war was breaking out below?

-It's very interesting.

I know I used to spend a lot of time listening to see

if they were going to fight

and trying to rush down there and stop them.

-How did you do that?

-Get in between them.

-Yeah.

-You were only eight, nine?

-I know. It's amazing what you can do.

Yeah. Tell me about Robinson Crusoe's story.

That story was something for me to...

It just pointed out the chance that there was sort of hope

on the horizon.

And his story, a young man who sets off on a business trip,

effectively, in the 17th century, he decides to be a merchant, much

against his father's advice, and was trying to make trades in the

islands and finished up shipwrecked on what we now know as Trinidad.

It's the story of him using everything that came ashore

when the ship was wrecked to build a life there.

He creates his own little world on that island,

but he never gives up hope.

And I think that was it, it was an inspiration for me.

-It was about survival and you were trying to survive.

-Absolutely.

Trying to survive the tempers that I was living in,

the tempers that constantly reared up again.

-And your mother eventually left.

-Yeah, she did.

She ran for the desert island! But, yeah...

-And you were left with your father.

-Yeah, I got left with him.

Thanks a lot, Mum(!)

Did you think you were like Robinson Crusoe?

Did you build yourself into the character?

No, but the funny thing about my father is,

we used to make bows and arrows and catapults and camps in the woods,

so there was that element of adventure in our life anyway.

-Something that had come to him... God!

-Quite a cheeky little chap.

Yeah, cheeky little chappy.

-Quite chubby.

-By the time I was 12, I was a real porker.

A real porker, yeah.

-That was my one claim...

-Reading and snacking at the same time?

Snacking like Billy-o, I tell you!

Did you see your mother after she left?

We used to see her, sort of, at the bus stop every weekend.

-That's a very sad story.

-I know. It is, yeah. But that's the way it was.

There was no reconciliation possible between them.

And eventually when you'd grown up, did you make contact properly with your mother?

Yeah, absolutely. In the end, I lost it with my father

and have a wonderful relationship with my mum.

Sarah, your first choice, Daphne's Book by Mary Downing Hahn.

Tell us about this.

It's not anywhere near as dramatic as your story. I feel like I should've gone first!

LAUGHTER

It's about a little girl in glasses who has trouble making friends.

There's... Strange(!)

LAUGHTER

It's only when I was asked to pick my five books that

I realised how incredibly autobiographical it was.

Yeah, it's a little girl who struggles to make friends

cos she's quite bookish and she's forced to make friends with another girl

when they do a school project and the other girl's quite popular

and they both sort of learn things about each other.

-It wasn't quite like your own childhood.

-It almost looks like me!

-That's terrifying!

-But they were in America, you were in Newcastle.

Yeah, but nerds look like nerds across the world.

LAUGHTER

-We've got a picture of you at that time.

-See?

You look much better than her.

There was a noise there that was "Oh..." in the audience.

You can pity me, but don't be physically sick!

You look quite a redhead there, or is that just the light?

No, it's just old-fashioned photography, I think.

It was a perm though, cos my mam was a hairdresser and she used to keep

us off PE cos she didn't think it was important and perm me hair!

-And was school difficult then, that you felt such a loner?

-Well, yeah.

It's not dramatic, it's not... Nobody was punching us.

They were just ignoring us, which was quite hard. And I was quite quiet. To be honest, I probably didn't...

If I'd spoken up, maybe I would've had a few more friends.

Sounds terribly tragic!

But you're so much more upbeat about your horrific childhood.

-And I'm like, "Nobody was my friend! Boo-hoo!"

-I've had a lot longer to get over it.

-Bless you!

-Did your father read to you?

-My father was a reader, very definitely.

And my father put me onto a lot of books.

-He was a psycho, but he was a very intelligent psycho.

-LAUGHTER

It's a bit of an irony that you then played Archie Mitchell,

-who could've been a prototype for your father.

-Yeah, he was the prototype for my father.

But I had an uncle as well that was similar

and I looked much more like my uncle, so between the two...

He was a very tough man and so the strange...

The weirdness of my father coupled with the strength of my uncle,

the two came together. It was like an amalgam, really.

Let's remind everybody of you.

The girl is dead! Dead and buried! Rotting in the ground!

And it's down to you!

Yeah... Ha-ha!

This is life paying you back...

for your neglect. Your vicious, selfish neglect.

Neglect of her, neglect of me, your father.

Is that the best you can do?

Horrible, isn't he?

Yeah, but with that sense of righteousness.

It's absolutely the rectitude.... "This is no lie."

Absolutely convinced of what he's doing.

I mean, a real... Ooh, a performance.

And I had that in my face all the time.

-All the time.

-The next book you've chosen is La Terre, Emile Zola,

because it reminds you of living in France.

Yeah, I'd bought an old house with my then partner, back in 1988,

and found myself living in a rural community,

deep in the heart of Normandy.

I happened on one of Zola's books, it was about a commune in Paris, and

then that sort of got me on to this whole series of books that he wrote.

Give us a quick sketch.

It's about the nature of Norman peasant people.

That's what it's about. People who live on the land in Normandy.

And it's about the way they are with money, with land,

with possessions, with relationships,

with inter-familial relationships, in a small community.

Can you read us your favourite passage, or a passage from that?

Yeah, there's a little passage here that...

It's about the wine harvest, chapter four.

"It was early October and the wine harvest was about to begin.

"A splendid week of feasting when quarrelsome families usually

"become reconciled over jugs of new wine.

"For a whole week, Rognes would reek of grapes.

"People ate so many that women lifted their skirts

"and men dropped their trousers under every hedge, and lovers,

"stained with grape juice, greedily exchanged kisses among the vines.

"In the end, there were lots of drunken men and pregnant girls."

Is that what it's like in Normandy where you were?

Certainly not like where I was, I'm here to tell you! They didn't have a wine harvest there.

I'd have been in real trouble if they did!

Did you actually read it in French or did you read it as The Earth?

No, it's quite archaic classical French of the 19th century

and although it's beautifully written, at that time,

it would've been a hack to get through it.

Sarah, your next choice is The Vagina Monologues by Eve Ensler.

How did you find out about the book?

Well, I used to want to write for the theatre

and I used to absorb as many plays as I could and then try

and write plays and send them in to the local theatres and sometimes they'd put them on as readings.

It was recommended by somebody at the theatre.

I started reading it and it was only then... I was 19 or 20. It was only then that I realised

how formidable women can be and the complexities of being a woman

and accepting parts of yourself, so to speak.

It's women's stories about their vaginas.

And about what can happen to them.

I should say as well that the show that you mentioned,

Sarah Millican's Not Nice, was my first show and the reason it was called that was partly

because I was a bit of a cow, and also because that's what

we use to call our lady parts when we were kids, me and my sister.

We used to call it your "not nice". LAUGHTER

So there's a story behind that, clearly!

-So, yeah. That's what we used to call ours.

-Read us a bit from it.

-OK.

-A nice bit.

-A nice bit! Oh! Are you going to blush?

Oh! You wouldn't believe!

This is a monologue by a woman who is very sort of introverted

and is wanting to have a one-night stand, but didn't want to...

Wasn't comfortable with her sort of nakedness, I suppose.

That's probably the best way of putting it.

"I didn't particularly like Bob. I would've missed him altogether

"if he hadn't picked up my change that I dropped on the deli floor.

"Then he handed me back my quarters and pennies

"and his hand accidentally touched mine. Something happened.

"I went to bed with him. That's when the miracle occurred."

And the miracle that occurred was the fact that he wanted to look at her

and she said, "But I'm here. "Look at me now."

And he said, "No, I want to look at all of you."

And she was mortified cos she wanted to sort of...in a bed, lying down, in the dark.

And he just wanted to look at her. And I think it's such a lovely moment that she's realised

that she is beautiful and she hadn't previously thought that

anybody would want to sort of drink her in with their eyes.

Did it move you to be a feminist?

I think I probably already was, but it certainly brought it out in me.

I've always wanted to be a strong woman and whenever I do anything, I always try and be a strong woman.

And this just really opened my eyes to different voices.

Larry, your next book was published in 2003.

It's A Million Little Pieces by James Frey.

Can you give us a brief outline?

It was given to me as a good book and it sort of took me

on a journey inside the mind of somebody who was absolutely

hooked on drugs and alcohol since childhood.

He managed to grab me right from the opening moment of that book.

-Shall I read a little bit?

-Yeah, cos this is what caught you.

-It's the opening sequence of this.

"I wake to the drone of an airplane engine and the feeling of something warm dripping down my chin.

"I lift my hand to feel my face. My front four teeth are gone.

"I have a hole in my cheek, my nose is broken and my eyes are swollen nearly shut.

"I open them and I look around and I'm in the back of a plane and there's no-one near me.

"I look at my clothes and my clothes are covered with a colourful

"mixture of spit, snot, urine, vomit and blood.

"I reach for the call button and I find it and I push it

"and I wait, and 30 seconds later an attendant arrives.

"'How can I help you?' 'Where am I going?' 'You don't know?' 'No.'"

-Cos he's been in a blackout.

-Total blackout.

-Has it happened to you?

No, no, no. I'm far too much of a control freak.

I drank like a fish as a teenager and then into my 20s and 30s.

But there's no way I could get completely taken up with that

-sort of situation at all.

-It had mixed reviews

because reviewers would say that it was annoying, he was en egotist,

he was bombastic, but actually the writing shone through on this book.

Yeah, the writing is extraordinary. Even in the negative reviews,

the one thing they can't deny is the fact that the guy can write.

-It's brilliantly written.

-Sarah, you've moved on to a self-help book.

Because your husband has quite unexpectedly left you.

Yeah, leaving is always how they describe it in newspapers and things.

Really, we just sold the flat and then walked out of the door

and literally went in different directions. It's very "soap".

Yes, and it was just unexpected.

I thought we were happy and it came as quite a shock.

And I moved back in with my parents and my sister for

two and a half years at the age of 29, went back in my old bedroom.

And my dad even said, bless him, "Do you still want your old posters?

"I can get your old posters out, if you like." My posters of Philip Schofield, bless him!

-LAUGHTER

-The book's called It's Your Life, What Are You Going to Do with It?

It says, "Coach yourself, make real changes in your life."

Anthony Grant and Jane Greene.

Unashamedly self-help, heroically self-help.

Quite aggressive as well. I think that's why it caught my eye.

It wasn't namby-pamby. I think I was probably looking for inspiration, just wandering round in a bookshop.

Sometimes when you don't go in for anything specific, you just browse.

-Where are we at this point?

-In Newcastle.

-OK.

And it caught my eye and I think if you finish a self-help book,

then it hasn't done its job. I don't think you should, cos some people read them

almost as a hobby and almost as a lifeline and don't actually

do the next stage of changing your life and it was only

when I found it...brought it out of my bookshelf,

-and it's got a little post-it note from where I stopped reading it.

-What page was that?

-Page 18.

I'm quite inspired. I'm going to get you to read from page 87.

Thank you. I did flick through cos these are the bits I used to like.

Rather than the exercises, I like the inspirational stories.

What are the exercises? These sort of exercises?

-Yeah, that's exactly what they are(!)

-Yeah.

Does it look like I do any of those ever? No!

LAUGHTER Don't laugh at that.

"Angela became a professional actress at the age of 50.

"She managed to break into an overcrowded, insecure,

"uncertain profession long after most people would have even thought of it.

"At 49, she auditioned for the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art

"and with a little help from friends and acquaintances, she had her first professional job at 50.

"She went on to have a successful career on stage and television,

"appearing in London's West End with Alan Alda."

Yes. I know you probably need a heart of stone like mine,

-but it is a bit impossible to believe, don't you think?

-Ugh.

It means I can become a neurosurgeon any day now.

It depends on whether you see it as "inspirational" and whether you're

glass half-empty or glass half-full, which I suspect you're the former.

This is about fulfilling dreams.

Yeah, it's about realising that you can do anything.

I did have those days when I got divorced of days when I felt like I could do nothing

and then I had days when I felt like I could do anything and I used to call those my She-Ra moments.

When I felt like if somebody said, "Climb that mountain,"

I'd think, "I need a bit of training and I need the right shoes, but I'm sure I can manage it."

And it was on one of those days that I decided to start doing stand-up.

Let's have a look at the star.

I bought a woman's magazine recently cos on the cover it said that some female celebrities had put weight on

and that they were now curvaceous. I thought, "Good. I'll have a look and see just how curvaceous they are."

And I flicked through and the fattest woman in there, it said that she had "ballooned"...

I repeat, she had...

.."ballooned" to a size 12.

LAUGHTER

I'd give my right arm to be a size 12. My right arm might be a size 12!

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

-Were you always funny as a child?

-I was quite "performy" as a child.

While I was quiet at school, I was always sort of... When I got new shoes,

I used to tap-dance around the boiler cos there were tiles around the boiler at home

and I used to have to have a little go with new shoes on.

And I used to read poetry to my mam that I'd written but I was

so nervous of performing that I used to read from behind a curtain.

-Yeah.

-They say that comedians can often be sad clowns.

Do you think there is a kind of contradiction

between one side of them and the other?

I don't know. I think generally comedians are outsiders.

I think they've always been observing life going on,

as opposed to being part of it.

Somebody said to me, once I started having a nicer life and I'd found

a nice man and my life was sort of on more of an even keel,

that I wouldn't be funny because I was only funny when I was miserable.

Thanks(!) But I think that's rubbish. I think it just depends on the kind of comedy that you do,

but I think there is a little bit of a sadness in a lot comics, but I don't think it's obligatory.

Larry, your next book, by the President of the US, no less, Audacity Of Hope.

-When did you first notice him?

-I noticed him quite early on.

I think it was 2004 or thereabouts.

-And he'd written this book by then.

-That was the second book.

-I read them in order. I read the first book...

-Dreams From My Father.

Yeah, I read them back-to-back. Dreams From My Father, which takes you back into his past,

his rather sort of interesting, chequered past in Indonesia and in Kenya.

And his family, tracking down his family,

and going back into his life, which I found fascinating.

But so truthful, so candid, so honest.

And then eventually, he takes you on into his political career

and how it progressed and working in the public sphere,

working for people as a sort of an organiser, organising people

to better their situation in poorer areas of Chicago.

And his gradual rise.

But the thing is, he doesn't pretend that he's a perfect soul

the way so many of these politicians do.

They paint themselves as being...close enough to the

Messiah, you know? Cos we all know they're not. And he doesn't.

He goes as close as he can, and you know,

to being totally truthful about himself.

And then he takes you inside his relationship with his wife,

who I just feel instinctively is the power behind the throne.

She is fantastic, and quite different from any other president's

wife, in that she's incredibly clever.

She looks a million dollars, but she's quite happy to do

traditional things as the president's wife.

Well...

She's a real blue collar American girl that's made it herself and

then she runs into a guy who's going to become the president of the US.

She's a real success story, that woman.

But the lovely thing is that what you love is

the romanticism of their marriage.

What I love is the truth. The fact that he admits to it

and he makes you party to it, while guarding the privacy, as it were.

He's a very... Whatever else, he's some politician,

but he is an extraordinary writer.

Have you listened to this book on CD?

-He reads them himself, the books.

-No, but I certainly shall.

-Would you like to hear?

-I'd love to, yeah. He has a wonderful voice.

OK, he's now trying to date Michelle.

"After a firm picnic, she drove me back to my apartment.

"I offered to buy her an ice cream cone at the Baskin Robbins across the street.

"We sat on the kerb and ate our cones in the sticky afternoon heat.

"And I told her about working at Baskin Robbins when I was a teenager.

"And how it was hard to look cool with a brown apron and cap.

"She told me that for a span of two or three years as a child,

"she'd refused to eat anything except peanut butter and jelly.

"I said that I'd like to meet her family.

"She said that she would like that.

"I asked her if I could kiss her.

"It tasted of chocolate."

-Oh, wow!

-Lovely.

-Oh, wow!

Sarah, you actually spent some time producing audio books like that.

Yes, I worked in the studio for a couple of years

and it was like being five years old cos you just got read to every day. It was wonderful.

And I read a lot of Mills and Boon, which wasn't always good.

LAUGHTER

-Yeah.

-Does the trick.

-Well, yeah, but they look really romantic.

My favourite title ever was Once Upon A Mattress.

It sounded like it was going to be really romantic and then just turned into pure filth.

But, yes, it was a great job. I really enjoyed the job.

And it's prompted your next choice, which is

The Weeping Tree by Audrey Reimann.

It's described as a heart-warming Scottish saga. Is this a deep book?

Er...

You're so judgemental, Anne. It's a lovely book.

We did a lot of pot-boilers in the studio.

It was your Catherine Cookson, that type of thing. And this was one of them.

This was the only book, I worked there for two years, and the only

book that I asked at the end of the recording if I could keep the book

-because I loved it so much.

-The story was...?

It's just a very simple story of a couple who fall in love

and consummate their relationship underneath a weeping willow and he goes off to war.

And the whole story is what happens to her, what happens to him and whether he'll come back.

And the fact that she's actually given birth to his child while he's away.

-Are they married?

-Er...no.

-Oh. They had...

-Ooh, judgey!

LAUGHTER There was a point in the recording

when the actress couldn't continue because her eyes just welled up.

We got really quite emotional, the two of us, and we had to stop recording for about half an hour.

We were both in such a state. I love being sucked in by a book like that.

Could you read a little without crying? Actually, you could cry if you wanted to.

-That'd be better for the telly programme for you.

-Yeah, yeah.

Let's see if I can work up some tears for you, pet.

"The sky above him was cobalt blue now

"and he saw through his teary, misty eyes the clouds ablaze, copper

"and bronze and flaming red behind the distant dusky hills of Fife.

"And as a great lump came into his throat,

"his feelings turned from humility to desperation.

"He would not rest until he discovered the truth of what had

"gone on at Ingerlsey in 1940. He would not rest until he saw

"and touched his own child who was conceived under the weeping tree."

"He would not rest..." I'm fine! I'm fine!

I think it's lovely. It's the same as being made to laugh.

Anything that... Words that somebody's just put on a bit of paper

can bring out these emotions. I think it's wonderful.

OK, we've had childhood books,

we've had ones you've enjoyed as adults and ones that have

influenced your life. Let's end with a guilty pleasure.

This is the airport buy, the beach read. Sarah, what is it for you?

It's not so much a beach read, it's just something that I read as an adult that

-I should've read as a child. Judy Blume's Forever.

-Yes, it's a teenage book.

It is a teenage book and it's known as "the rude one".

I read all of Judy Blume's other books and loved them,

and then I'd heard about Forever and hadn't read it but my mam had

heard that it was rude, so she banned me from having it - rightly so.

So I never got to read it.

And then I was having a chat with my friend when I was sort of late 20s

and she hadn't been allowed to read it either, so for our

30th birthdays, I bought us both a copy of Judy Blume's Forever.

-It's not really that bad. I was quite disappointed.

-What's it about?

It's just about a young couple, teenagers falling in love.

-But there are, you know, some rude bits in it.

-What kind of rude bits?

Ooh...

Er, he does refer to his member as Ralf, which seemed an odd name

to me, cos Ralf, it certainly doesn't make me all hot and bothered.

LAUGHTER

Apologies to any Ralfs in the audience.

She has the distinction of being a bestselling writer

and plus being one that's banned in parts of America as well.

It is a book about birth control as well.

Yes, I did pick up on those things. It wasn't just cos I didn't read the book.

It didn't mean I didn't know about any of those things until I was 30.

Whatever you say, Sarah.

SHE LAUGHS

Your guilty pleasure, Larry, is...

The Times Reference Atlas Of The World.

-Yeah.

-You're such a boy!

-That's almost travelable, that thing.

Mine's enormous! It's like this.

It weighs about, I don't know, probably 15 pounds.

Just show us, Larry...

-You read...

-Read from it a bit!

You just open something, and here we are - we're in Thailand.

-Yes.

-I've never been to Thailand.

I'm sussing out the shape of Thailand, where it runs

and how long it goes down towards... And there we are, it borders

with Malaysia and now we're running down the coast...

-ANNE LAUGHS

-..of all these wonderful places.

And whole areas where there are no roads.

There's a whole section here,

the whole side of this peninsula that's actually Burma.

And I thought Burma was basically one big lump.

And there's a huge long strip of it runs down the side of Thailand.

-So you haven't got to that page yet?

-I...

SARAH LAUGHS

This is what it is, it's like...

I've worked in almost every...

In every continent. I've worked in every country in Europe,

I've worked in Asia, America.

Do you share this guilty pleasure with anyone?

A lot of people are hooked on maps.

-Are they?

-Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people are hooked on maps.

What would you say, Sarah, now that

we've seen your choice of books? What do they say about you?

I think I'm driven by emotion cos yours read sort of like...

Almost like a university reading list.

It's very impressive. Mine are...

There's self-help and children's books and books that I've cried at.

I think I am driven incredibly by emotion, so if anything has

made me cry or made me laugh, that's what's going to stick in my brain.

What do you think your choice of books says about you, Larry?

I think you've hit it right on the nail. It's an education.

What I've read is what's educated me.

And if you had to choose one book to recommend of the five

-you've chosen, Sarah, what would yours be?

-Um...

I think it would probably be the self-help book, which

sounds really cheesy, but I think I really like being inspired.

And even though I changed my life and now I've got a really nice life,

I think you can always make it a little bit better.

Larry? What would you recommend of your choices?

-I think I would recommend Barack Obama's books...

-Yeah.

..because they are just an indication that there's at least

one person out there that wants to get everything put right.

Whether he gets the chance to do it is another kettle of fish.

Larry Lamb, Sarah Millican,

thank you for joining me for My Life In Books.

And just to remind you,

there's more about the books programme on the website:

And please join me again tomorrow, same time, same place,

for more stories of lives and books.

APPLAUSE

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd