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For this Collection, | 0:00:06 | 0:00:07 | |
Sir Michael Parkinson | 0:00:07 | 0:00:08 | |
has selected BBC interviews | 0:00:08 | 0:00:10 | |
with influential figures | 0:00:10 | 0:00:12 | |
of the 20th century. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:13 | |
More programmes on this theme | 0:00:13 | 0:00:15 | |
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Evening. I'm often asked which is my favourite interview, | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
and it's a question I feel unable to answer because, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
in truth, I haven't got a favourite interview. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
There have been occasions, however, that were particularly special | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
and memorable for me for different reasons. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
One such occurred just over two years ago, | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
when I interviewed a very remarkable man, Dr Jacob Bronowski. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
At the time, his epic series The Ascent Of Man was being shown. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
He fascinated me because he was one of the few genuine intellectuals | 0:00:44 | 0:00:48 | |
who had the sublime gift of communicating | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
across the broadest possible level. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
Well, because of the three-day week | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
and the restriction on broadcasting hours at the time, | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
we were only able to show a shortened version on BBC Two. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
Sadly, some 18 months ago, Dr Bronowski died, | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
and tonight we're going to show you, | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
for the first time, the interview in its entirety. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
There are many reasons for doing so. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
One is that what he had to say has as much relevance now as then. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
Another, that I believe it to be a testament of a rare human being. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:19 | |
And also, because, although I haven't got a favourite interview, | 0:01:19 | 0:01:23 | |
I shall forever remember this meeting. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
Do you find, Dr Bronowski, | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
that people are frightened of talking to you, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
in the sense that they're a bit overawed by your reputation | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
and your presence? | 0:01:50 | 0:01:52 | |
I have one very great advantage. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
I don't regard it personally as an advantage, but in being approachable. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:02 | |
You see, I'm much smaller than people think, | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
so that people stop in the street and they look at me and they say, | 0:02:05 | 0:02:08 | |
quite involuntarily, "Oh, you're much smaller than I thought you were." | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
MICHAEL LAUGHS | 0:02:11 | 0:02:12 | |
That's a great icebreaker. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
I see. So that gives them somehow the advantage, they think. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
When, in fact, did you first become aware of this | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
extraordinary mental capacity that you have? | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
AUDIENCE LAUGHS | 0:02:28 | 0:02:30 | |
It's one of those wife-beating questions! | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
I have to confess to an extraordinary mental capacity | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
of which, truly, I'm not very much aware. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
I had the great good fortune of being born of | 0:02:41 | 0:02:46 | |
rather clever and rather modest parents. | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
So what mental gifts I have, I inherited from my parents. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:54 | |
But I also inherited from them | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
something which was given me by their culture, | 0:02:57 | 0:03:01 | |
not by what I was born with, namely a simple feeling in the family that... | 0:03:01 | 0:03:06 | |
..all human beings were pretty smart, you know. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
We were obviously much cleverer than monkeys and cats. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
Some people were very much cleverer than monkeys and cats | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
and some people somewhat cleverer. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:19 | |
Um...I was never aware at home | 0:03:19 | 0:03:24 | |
that what I could do was extraordinary. | 0:03:24 | 0:03:30 | |
And to this day, I never approach a piece of work, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:36 | |
whether it's writing, thinking, | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
whether it's science or this evening... | 0:03:39 | 0:03:42 | |
..in any other spirit than, "That sounds interesting, let's do it." | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
Yes. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:49 | |
If I don't do it very well, I'd say afterwards, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:51 | |
- "You just didn't work hard enough." - Yes. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:53 | |
An eminent authority - your wife, no less, I think... | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
JACOB LAUGHS | 0:03:56 | 0:03:58 | |
..once described you as having a mind that could see round corners. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:01 | |
Was she right? And if so, what does that mean? | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
I think she's right in saying that I have a strongly visual mind. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:11 | |
That is to say that I think of every problem as having a shape. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:18 | |
I visualise every problem. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
And I suppose you could say around corners | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
in the sense that all human abilities are thinking ahead | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
to things which are not already present to the vision. | 0:04:27 | 0:04:31 | |
We think in images. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
The word "imagination" means that. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:35 | |
Yes, I am a good imaginative thinker in the very simple sense of | 0:04:35 | 0:04:40 | |
- working with images. - Mmm. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:44 | |
I should give you a practical example of that. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
Um, I was in Japan in 1945, and the very first thing that struck me | 0:04:47 | 0:04:53 | |
when I arrived in Japan was that the people were all very small. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:58 | |
You know, the Japanese in 1945, | 0:05:00 | 0:05:02 | |
having been starved through years of war, | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
were so small that when the men came to take our luggage off the plane, | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
I thought they were schoolboys. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
Well, that made a great impression on me, | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
but it's not an impression of little men running around, | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
and big men - by Japanese standards, I was quite a big man... | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
Ha, big men! | 0:05:21 | 0:05:22 | |
Nobody stopped you in the street over there? | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
No! No, no. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
But I at once had the vision of there being | 0:05:29 | 0:05:32 | |
a sort of mountain of Japanese size and a mountain of European size, | 0:05:32 | 0:05:40 | |
and that European people were grouped round this average peak | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
and Japanese around this, | 0:05:45 | 0:05:46 | |
and that these two mountains didn't overlap much. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
If you think of a problem in that way, it's easier to solve. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:52 | |
That's extraordinary, though, | 0:05:52 | 0:05:54 | |
I don't think most people's minds would figure that out at all. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
I mean, even now you've explained it, | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
I find it very difficult to understand it! | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
- To be frank. - Try. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
Well, later on, I won't sort of sit here, | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
I've got other things to think about. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
Let's talk about your early life, because in fact you spent some years, | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
didn't you, in your childhood in Germany during the First World War? | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
When you look back at that, | 0:06:19 | 0:06:21 | |
do you regard it as being a traumatic experience? | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
Well, of course it was a traumatic experience, | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
but it didn't strike me so at the time. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
You see, I was in Germany as a child. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
The war broke out in 1914, when I was six. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
It came to an end in 1918, when I was ten. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
I was a very patriotic little German, | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
but, in fact, I was a Russian by nationality. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:48 | |
So I was an enemy alien. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:50 | |
My parents were enemy aliens. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:52 | |
We were not very well treated by the Germans. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
Um... | 0:06:55 | 0:06:57 | |
But I think it just made me at home in the world. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
I've always lived in countries that I haven't been born in. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
You know, I was born in Lodz, | 0:07:06 | 0:07:07 | |
and the last time I was in Lodz was in 1913, that's 60 years ago. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:12 | |
Yes. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:14 | |
So it gave you a capacity, in effect, | 0:07:14 | 0:07:16 | |
to make your home wherever you were... | 0:07:16 | 0:07:18 | |
- Yes. - ..without feeling out of place. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:20 | |
Can you recall your first...? You then came to England, of course. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
Can you recall your first impressions of England? | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
I remember them very well. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:27 | |
I came up in the train from Harwich to London. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
And as we came into London, | 0:07:31 | 0:07:34 | |
the train ran through all those backs of endless rows of houses. | 0:07:34 | 0:07:40 | |
And they all had chimneys with chimneypots and cowls on. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
That was a thing I'd never seen. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:46 | |
And chimneypots and chimney cowls and smoke belching out of them | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
dominated my visual image of London | 0:07:50 | 0:07:54 | |
and of England for many years after that. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
Really? The other thing is the language, | 0:07:57 | 0:07:59 | |
because you obviously didn't speak English when you arrived here, | 0:07:59 | 0:08:02 | |
and now, of course, you speak English without a trace of accent whatsoever. | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
Did you, in fact, at the time, | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
did you have difficulty learning the language? | 0:08:07 | 0:08:09 | |
I had difficulty in learning to speak English, | 0:08:14 | 0:08:20 | |
as you so charmingly say, without a trace of accent - | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
I don't think that's quite true. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
But, at any rate, in speaking it as well as I do, | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
because I'm not a very good mimic, but I had no difficulty in learning | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
English as a literary language, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
and you see, it's a very beautiful language. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
When I had been in England for about a month, | 0:08:36 | 0:08:39 | |
a boy at school took me to the Whitechapel Library. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:45 | |
And there, a very elderly librarian said to me, | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
"Well, if you're going to learn English, | 0:08:48 | 0:08:50 | |
"you should start by reading a simple book." | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
- And he lent me Midshipman Easy. - Yeah. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
And I remember that I was struck in Midshipman Easy | 0:08:56 | 0:09:01 | |
by the use of the phrase, "hoist with his own petard". | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:09:05 | 0:09:07 | |
Which I later discovered had not been invented by Marryat at all, | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
but by Shakespeare. But of course, I didn't know any better at the time. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
I thought that was lovely. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:15 | |
And English has always struck me as a language | 0:09:15 | 0:09:17 | |
which is full of these marvellous historic metaphors. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:21 | |
Very concise, very precise. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:23 | |
It's a language that I fell in love with at the age of, I suppose... | 0:09:23 | 0:09:29 | |
I came here when I was 12, | 0:09:29 | 0:09:31 | |
so I suppose I was 14 when I first began to memorise English poems. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:38 | |
And I was made to memorise, by my form master, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
the whole of Gray's Elegy. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:43 | |
And I stood in front of the class | 0:09:43 | 0:09:45 | |
and I read Gray's Elegy from beginning to end, you know. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
Mmm. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:49 | |
"Can storied urn or animated bust back to its mansion | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
"call the fleeting breath?" | 0:09:53 | 0:09:55 | |
And all those wonderful lines. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
And he listened to me. | 0:09:57 | 0:09:59 | |
The class all opened their desk and ate their lunch! | 0:10:00 | 0:10:05 | |
And then at the end, he said, very cruelly, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
"One day I shall hope to hear you say it in English." | 0:10:08 | 0:10:11 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:10:11 | 0:10:13 | |
Unkind, but... | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
- Crushing, I would have thought. - Well, you see... | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
..learning to understand that people are not really as unkind | 0:10:21 | 0:10:24 | |
as they express themselves is probably what I learnt in Germany | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
and what I learnt as a small boy in England. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:29 | |
- It did me a world of good. - Yes. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
At that time, when you were there in your early teens, | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
did you know then that you wanted to be a scientist? | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
No, not particularly. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
You see, one of the great merits of learning English at that time is that | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
I learnt English, mathematics, chemistry all at the same time. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:48 | |
Well, what does that mean? | 0:10:51 | 0:10:53 | |
It means that, when you are struggling with the word for water, | 0:10:53 | 0:10:57 | |
which is a very difficult word to pronounce - | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
you just listen to an American and you'll see how difficult it is! | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:11:03 | 0:11:05 | |
And at the same time, | 0:11:05 | 0:11:07 | |
you're learning that it's written as H2O in the class upstairs... | 0:11:07 | 0:11:12 | |
You suddenly realise that all science, all mathematics, | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
each of them is a language for expressing | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
the relations in nature in a different way. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:25 | |
And that was a marvellous experience. | 0:11:25 | 0:11:26 | |
I never thought of myself, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:28 | |
particularly, as a scientist or a literary figure, | 0:11:28 | 0:11:30 | |
I edited the school magazine in a very short time. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:33 | |
But I loved them all because of this sense | 0:11:33 | 0:11:36 | |
that one was unpicking the world, | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
finding the strands that run through it, | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
because language was the key to that. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
And each way of looking at the world had a language of its own. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
You just really, actually, answered something that slightly bothers me | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
and I think a lot of people, who can't see, | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
I think you explained it there, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
the link between the scientist who writes poetry, | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
they see it as essentially a conflict - | 0:12:00 | 0:12:02 | |
one of artistic values, the other of mathematical values. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:06 | |
And yet you say that, in fact, they're all of a piece, | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
so one shouldn't be surprised that you have, like yourself, | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
a scientist who writes poetry. | 0:12:12 | 0:12:14 | |
Well, most people could do practically anything | 0:12:14 | 0:12:16 | |
if they put their minds to it. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:18 | |
I can't think of many poets who've achieved eminence in your field. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
Well, Humphry Davy, you know, was uncertain | 0:12:22 | 0:12:25 | |
whether he was going to be a scientist or a poet. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
It was really only because Coleridge persuaded him that he, Coleridge, | 0:12:28 | 0:12:33 | |
was a much better poet that Humphry Davy | 0:12:33 | 0:12:35 | |
decided to settle for being a scientist! | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
Well, that shows a scientific mind at work! | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
I must warn you that I'm simplifying that story a little, | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
but I have the crux of it right. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:45 | |
Do you, in fact, still write poetry? | 0:12:45 | 0:12:47 | |
Yes, I still write one poem a year, at Christmas time. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
I lock myself away and I think of one statement to make | 0:12:51 | 0:12:55 | |
about what happened to me and to my mind during the year | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
which I send to people at Christmas time. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
Really? Can you remember the last one you did? | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
The last one I did is about Watergate | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
and I think that is too... prickly and explosive a subject! | 0:13:09 | 0:13:14 | |
But I will tell you, if I can remember it, | 0:13:17 | 0:13:20 | |
a very characteristic poem | 0:13:20 | 0:13:23 | |
that I wrote, it must have been about 1965 or '66, | 0:13:23 | 0:13:28 | |
when I had just settled in California. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:31 | |
I had discovered that California was a country that everybody went to | 0:13:31 | 0:13:38 | |
as if it were an El Dorado. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
They went full of ambition, | 0:13:40 | 0:13:42 | |
and they all thought that the promised land was there. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
And naturally, they all wanted the promised land without working for it, | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
you know, that's what stops most people from doing anything. | 0:13:48 | 0:13:52 | |
They think that they're going to win it in the pools. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:57 | |
And you can win everything in the pools except the desire to win. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:02 | |
Well, California struck me that way very much. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
I was very upset about people wanting to have success so easily, | 0:14:06 | 0:14:11 | |
and I wrote a poem... | 0:14:11 | 0:14:12 | |
..which goes like this. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
This is the coast the lemmings reached | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
They did not drown but simply beached | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
Here after agonies and less | 0:14:27 | 0:14:31 | |
They found the go-go star success | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
The goddess in the wilderness | 0:14:35 | 0:14:37 | |
who shook her breast and blessed the West | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
She beckoned from the burning glass | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
Medusa with a face of brass | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
And with her sunset fingertip | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
Wrote as if in magnesium strip | 0:14:54 | 0:15:00 | |
A rain check on the hall of fame | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
Make a cross and put your name. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:08 | |
That's super. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:10 | |
Well, you know... | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
What you do, in effect, is you deliver this sort of private message | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
to your friends every year, you don't publish or anything like that. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
The thing that interests me, | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
do you ever long for the bohemian life of the artist? | 0:15:28 | 0:15:34 | |
One imagines that your life is so ordered and planned. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
Hah! | 0:15:39 | 0:15:40 | |
I live in a community of artists now who are so bohemian | 0:15:40 | 0:15:44 | |
that you can't find them under their sweaters. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:49 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:15:49 | 0:15:50 | |
You know, 20 years ago, when Einstein used to pad around | 0:15:50 | 0:15:56 | |
in those funny old sweaters and slippers and no socks, | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
everybody thought how marvellous, how outrageous, | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
you had to be a great man to dress like that. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
Well, now they've found that you wear the clothes | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
and let posterity take care of the rest! | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
- A rain check on the hall of fame. - Yes. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:15 | |
But to answer your question seriously, | 0:16:16 | 0:16:20 | |
I have had many bohemian friends. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
For instance, for a short time towards the end of his life, | 0:16:23 | 0:16:29 | |
I knew Dylan Thomas quite well. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:30 | |
- Really? - I liked him very much as a person. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
And he was always very charming. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
Er...people are not in awe of me in the street, | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
but friends who come from poetry or the arts and so on | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
have just that touch of awe which makes them behave | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
somewhat better with me than they do with others. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
And Dylan Thomas, I think, behaved exceptionally well with me. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
But I thought that I just couldn't stand his life. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:58 | |
I just thought that the notion that you would wake up | 0:16:58 | 0:17:02 | |
very late in the morning and say to yourself, | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
"Have the kids gone to school? Who's driving my wife to the supermarket? | 0:17:06 | 0:17:12 | |
"Who has the car?" and so on, | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
were too deeply ingrained in my outlook | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
for my ever being able to dismiss those. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
Now, I was very sorry about this because I also realised | 0:17:20 | 0:17:24 | |
that you can't write poetry like Dylan Thomas's | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
without a wonderful air of irresponsibility, | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
where you say, "To hell with the second car | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
"and the supermarket, this is life, this is how I think." | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
And all this rather tidy poetry that I write, | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
and have just told you, comes from a different temperament. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
I just don't have the temperament to be a bohemian. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
Do I regret it? | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
Well, of course I regret never having written | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
- poems as beautiful as Dylan Thomas. - Yes. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
But then, what about the, I suppose, irresponsibility, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:55 | |
if one can put it, of the poet like Thomas? | 0:17:55 | 0:17:57 | |
Because although, as you say, he lived in this style | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
and created this magnificent poetry, | 0:18:00 | 0:18:02 | |
he also killed himself, didn't he, by doing it? | 0:18:02 | 0:18:04 | |
Well, that was his lookout. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
Doesn't he have a responsibility to those around him who love him too? | 0:18:08 | 0:18:12 | |
I think they accepted him for what he was. | 0:18:18 | 0:18:20 | |
He was a very splendid person. Of course, I was very sorry | 0:18:20 | 0:18:23 | |
when he killed himself for what seemed to me ridiculous reasons. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
But you know, people are of a piece. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
You can't think that you can go round in a kleptomaniac way, | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
like a shoplifter in the Almighty's supermarket, | 0:18:32 | 0:18:35 | |
picking out something that you like here... | 0:18:35 | 0:18:38 | |
"I'll have a little brain there," and so on. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:40 | |
If you'll forgive my saying so, I'm reminded of McCarthy | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
and the Committee for Un-American Activities | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
when I was in America back in 1953, | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
who kept on having great scientists in front of them | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
and would say to them, | 0:18:52 | 0:18:53 | |
"We understand about you being a great scientist, | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
"but why are you such a radical in politics? | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
"Couldn't you be a nice conservative like me and Mr Nixon?" | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:19:02 | 0:19:04 | |
And one couldn't explain to them that being a scientist, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:09 | |
and being a poet, being an original person, meant a very questioning, | 0:19:09 | 0:19:14 | |
a very rebellious, a very...uncomfortable way of life. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:22 | |
And that's what makes progress in the human race. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
You know, if there hadn't been some monkeys who had been | 0:19:25 | 0:19:27 | |
very awkward children, there would be no human race. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:31 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:19:31 | 0:19:33 | |
It was the children who disobeyed their monkey parents | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
who are our ancestors. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:38 | |
How? | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
By forming a more adventurous strain than living by those habitual ways | 0:19:45 | 0:19:51 | |
that their respectable monkey parents lived. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:55 | |
You know, somewhere between 5 million years ago and 20 million years ago, | 0:19:55 | 0:20:00 | |
those nice, Sunday morning church-going chimpanzees | 0:20:00 | 0:20:05 | |
went down the road and some little kid broke away. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:08 | |
- I'm simplifying the story, but... - Of course. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
But, in essence, it's true. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
And they, by physique and by temperament, did different things. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:23 | |
Actually, they faced a great crisis at that time. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
Er...the land was drying up, | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
the African forest near the equator was thinning out. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:34 | |
And they were faced with a way of life | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
which had to be changed if they were to survive. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
And they changed by coming down... | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
We used to think by actually coming down to the ground. | 0:20:43 | 0:20:46 | |
They didn't do quite that, but they had to learn to hop, | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
as it were, from one surviving grove of trees to the other. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
And that's how they came to stand upright, | 0:20:52 | 0:20:54 | |
that's how they came to begin to...er...use their hands | 0:20:54 | 0:21:01 | |
rather than their mouth, and so on. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
They didn't acquire these habits. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
But the ones among them who were clever like that | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
were the ones who survived, and they are our ancestors. | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
Yes. Can I ask you now about the fame that you acquired | 0:21:14 | 0:21:19 | |
on television and radio? Television fame particularly. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
As I say, in the sort of '50s and so, | 0:21:23 | 0:21:25 | |
you were one of the first big television personalities. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
Did it ever have the effect on your fellow scientists that, | 0:21:28 | 0:21:31 | |
because of your fame and your public appeal, | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
that they didn't take you seriously as a scientist? | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
Oh, I'm sure it did. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:38 | |
You know, this is not the kind of thing that people say to your face. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
I mean, when they ask you to dinner, they don't sort of say, | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
"Oh, good evening, Dr Bronowski..." | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
Er... | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
"Of course, we wouldn't confess to having watched your programme, | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
"but we saw your explanation about human evolution | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
"the other day and, you know, it's not sound, it's not sound!" | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
They don't actually say that, but naturally, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
that's what you have to suffer. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:02 | |
Well, um... | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
If I had to do it again, I'd do it just the same way. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
- You enjoyed it? - No, not because I enjoyed it. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
I enjoy everything. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:16 | |
I don't have to hide from you the fact that I would be | 0:22:16 | 0:22:19 | |
enjoying this conversation even if you were a pretty girl. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:22 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
I'm not sure that I would, but... | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:22:33 | 0:22:34 | |
I have been fortunate in just having immense enjoyment of life | 0:22:34 | 0:22:41 | |
and, happily, I enjoy what are called intellectual pursuits, | 0:22:41 | 0:22:46 | |
marginally more than mere physical pursuits. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
I should like you to be a pretty, INTELLIGENT girl. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:52 | |
To come back to what we were saying, | 0:22:52 | 0:22:57 | |
would I do it again because I enjoyed it? | 0:22:57 | 0:22:59 | |
No, I would do it again | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
because I came to it from a deep sense | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
that science was reaching a stage | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
where those scientists who had a special talent | 0:23:08 | 0:23:13 | |
for speaking simply and explicitly | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
also had a great duty laid on them to do so. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:21 | |
And I am as proud of colleagues of mine | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
who did that and have died - JD Bernal, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
the great JBS Haldane - | 0:23:28 | 0:23:30 | |
as I am of anything that I have done. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
- Mm. - I would have done... | 0:23:32 | 0:23:34 | |
..no doubt, more academic scientific work if I had given more time to it | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
and less time to gossiping with you. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
Er... | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
but whether I would have done anything | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
half as important in the... | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
..spread of a... | 0:23:57 | 0:23:59 | |
..liberal attitude towards the scientists, | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
towards the sciences | 0:24:04 | 0:24:06 | |
and, above all, towards intellectual ideas, | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
no, I don't think I would have done. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
I don't think I could have done better with my talents | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
than what I have done. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
Sorry, go on. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:19 | |
I was going to ask you that, on that programme particularly, | 0:24:19 | 0:24:23 | |
you became known as the man who had an answer for absolutely everything - | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
an instant sort of fact, or not necessarily a fact - | 0:24:27 | 0:24:31 | |
an idea about something. Were you ever floored? | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
Was there anything that defeated you on that programme? | 0:24:34 | 0:24:36 | |
Well, there were some questions asked on the programme on which, | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
fortunately, I was not present, to which I didn't know the answer. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
I mean, there's a classical question | 0:24:43 | 0:24:45 | |
about how a fly lands upside-down on a ceiling, | 0:24:45 | 0:24:49 | |
to which I didn't know the answer then, | 0:24:49 | 0:24:51 | |
and, thank God, I don't know it now... | 0:24:51 | 0:24:53 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:24:53 | 0:24:54 | |
..because I do not think that you need to | 0:24:54 | 0:24:56 | |
have your mind stuffed with a lot of irrelevant facts. | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
But on the programme, I don't think that I was ever asked anything | 0:24:59 | 0:25:05 | |
to which I didn't know, in a rough way, | 0:25:05 | 0:25:09 | |
why it went that particular way, why, you know... | 0:25:09 | 0:25:13 | |
How nature does that particular trick. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:17 | |
Cos, you know, I mean, | 0:25:17 | 0:25:19 | |
the only pleasure of being a scientist | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
is that nature produces all these wonderful complications | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
from such marvellous, simple devices | 0:25:26 | 0:25:28 | |
about which the most marvellous thing is | 0:25:28 | 0:25:32 | |
that the human brain is actually capable of understanding. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:36 | |
Yes. Yes. | 0:25:36 | 0:25:37 | |
Can I go back now a little bit in your life | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
to the point where you were in England and...to the point, | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
in fact, where you went to America, actually? | 0:25:43 | 0:25:45 | |
It's not going back, is it? What reasons, in fact, | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
made you go to the States in the first place? | 0:25:48 | 0:25:50 | |
I suddenly discovered... that I was...55. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:58 | |
You know, you sort of wake up to that one fine day | 0:26:01 | 0:26:04 | |
because, until then, you feel youthful and splendid | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
and life seems to be going on for ever | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
and you put things off. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:13 | |
Er, I had been working at what I regarded as | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
a very important project for the Coal Board, which, er, | 0:26:15 | 0:26:22 | |
was now at a stage where engineers should take it over. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
And I realised that I probably had ten good active years left, | 0:26:29 | 0:26:35 | |
during which I would be able to think, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
not as fast as I used to think, but still with sufficient attention, | 0:26:37 | 0:26:43 | |
because what goes as you grow older is simply your attention span. | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
How long can you keep at it? | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
So I just made up my mind | 0:26:49 | 0:26:51 | |
that as soon as somebody made me a decent offer, I would accept it. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:55 | |
By decent offer, I meant that I didn't want to lecture, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
I wanted to be away from anybody who asked me | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
to go on television shows... | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
LAUGHTER I didn't... | 0:27:04 | 0:27:06 | |
I just wanted to do the research that I was now devoted to. | 0:27:06 | 0:27:10 | |
And since that had to do with what makes human beings special, | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
it was a subject which I knew was going to be important in the future | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
and that I could do something to found because, you know, | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
I am in process of helping to found what is really | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
a new academic discipline. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:25 | |
Yes. How readily did America take to you? | 0:27:25 | 0:27:28 | |
How did it initially react to you? | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
Well, of course, they asked me because I had a... | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
..a good reputation in America because I had written a book | 0:27:37 | 0:27:41 | |
called Science And Human Values, which... | 0:27:41 | 0:27:46 | |
..students were made to read in their first year at college, | 0:27:48 | 0:27:52 | |
ever since it was published in 1953 - | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
that was 20 years ago, it's just the 20th anniversary in... | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
of that. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:00 | |
And that book had made a great impression | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
on the American public, much more so than here. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
It was given as a set of invited lectures | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. | 0:28:09 | 0:28:12 | |
And in it, I had simply said, for the first time, | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
that you can't be a scientist without also a deep sense | 0:28:15 | 0:28:20 | |
of not only the accuracy of what you do, | 0:28:20 | 0:28:23 | |
but the honesty, the values, the human involvement. | 0:28:23 | 0:28:27 | |
And that's why it was called Science And Human Values. | 0:28:27 | 0:28:29 | |
I invented the phrase "human values" | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
for that, er, programme... for that, er... | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
series of lectures and I've often regretted it since then | 0:28:34 | 0:28:39 | |
because one ought to invent phrases that people will identify with you, | 0:28:39 | 0:28:43 | |
not phrases that they'll just steal! LAUGHTER | 0:28:43 | 0:28:46 | |
What are the essential differences | 0:28:46 | 0:28:47 | |
that you've observed, Dr Bronowski, between Britons and Americans? | 0:28:47 | 0:28:52 | |
Are they that very much different, do you think? | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
There are many differences. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:02 | |
Er, one of them is that America is not homogeneous. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:07 | |
Er... | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
Britain is a country with | 0:29:09 | 0:29:11 | |
well-accepted traditions of behaviour. | 0:29:11 | 0:29:15 | |
Er... | 0:29:16 | 0:29:18 | |
When a foreigner like me comes to this country, | 0:29:21 | 0:29:24 | |
he is encouraged to speak the language like a native | 0:29:24 | 0:29:29 | |
at the earliest possible moment. | 0:29:29 | 0:29:31 | |
He is even encouraged to change his name | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
as soon as possible, which I didn't do, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
because, like musicians, scientists on the whole | 0:29:36 | 0:29:38 | |
do better if they have outlandish names. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:29:41 | 0:29:42 | |
Er... Well, now, in America, none of this is true. | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
I mean, as you will know from the example of Dr Kissinger, | 0:29:45 | 0:29:47 | |
it's a positive advantage to speak English | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
with a foreign accent in America, and I don't mean an American accent. | 0:29:50 | 0:29:55 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:29:55 | 0:29:56 | |
Um...it's always astonishing to me. | 0:29:56 | 0:30:00 | |
The first time I went to | 0:30:00 | 0:30:01 | |
a very secret American atomic energy establishment, | 0:30:01 | 0:30:05 | |
I heard so many Russian accents | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
that I said to the head of the establishment at the end, | 0:30:07 | 0:30:09 | |
"Do you know, I wonder, if I go to Omsk, | 0:30:09 | 0:30:12 | |
"if everybody will speak Russian with an American accent!" | 0:30:12 | 0:30:15 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:30:15 | 0:30:16 | |
The other great difference that strikes you... | 0:30:17 | 0:30:21 | |
..really stems from that. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:25 | |
I say "stems from that" because what I've just said is that | 0:30:26 | 0:30:28 | |
America is not very homogeneous, | 0:30:28 | 0:30:30 | |
therefore everybody brings their own traditions to it. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
They behave like the Quaker stuff | 0:30:33 | 0:30:36 | |
from which they came, or, most of my colleagues, | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
like the Polish stuff from which they came. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
You know, people stop me in the street in America | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
who actually know me, they speak to me in Polish - | 0:30:44 | 0:30:46 | |
a language which I don't speak any more. | 0:30:46 | 0:30:49 | |
Er... | 0:30:49 | 0:30:50 | |
..and that makes all questions of moral values | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
and so on very difficult in America, | 0:30:55 | 0:30:56 | |
because people don't share common tradition. | 0:30:56 | 0:30:59 | |
Now, that leads to the second point, which is, | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
it's a tremendously do-it-yourself society. | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
I'll tell you a little story. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:07 | |
I arrived in America in 1953 to give the very lectures | 0:31:09 | 0:31:12 | |
to which I referred, | 0:31:12 | 0:31:13 | |
called Science And Human Values at MIT. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
And it was a very difficult time - | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
the McCarthy Committee was just sitting, | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
the McCarran Act had just been passed, | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
er...it was very difficult to get a visa. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:30 | |
Er... | 0:31:30 | 0:31:31 | |
..I, as a university teacher... | 0:31:33 | 0:31:35 | |
..had to go to the American Embassy, | 0:31:38 | 0:31:40 | |
and take a test to show that I was free from venereal disease! | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:31:43 | 0:31:45 | |
My wife, as the wife of a university teacher, | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
did not have to take such a test. | 0:31:48 | 0:31:49 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
I always thought that that said something | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
very remarkable about the Americans, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:55 | |
but I've been thinking for 20 years what it said, and I still don't know! | 0:31:55 | 0:31:59 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
Now... | 0:32:02 | 0:32:04 | |
I arrived on a very cold morning | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
at about five in the morning, on the quayside in New York | 0:32:07 | 0:32:10 | |
on a French boat called the Liberte. | 0:32:10 | 0:32:12 | |
And my luggage was unloaded | 0:32:15 | 0:32:17 | |
and I had brought with me copies of my book on Blake, | 0:32:17 | 0:32:22 | |
which had newly been published. | 0:32:22 | 0:32:24 | |
And a very small man... you know, great coat | 0:32:24 | 0:32:28 | |
and a cap and covered with badges and so on, | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
began to go through my luggage, and held in his hand | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
the piece of paper on which I'd declared what was in there. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
Well, I come from that sort of simple, | 0:32:38 | 0:32:39 | |
honest European stock where I'd actually written down what I had | 0:32:39 | 0:32:43 | |
and it said, "12 copies of book on William Blake". | 0:32:43 | 0:32:45 | |
He said to me, "You know, by rights, bud, | 0:32:47 | 0:32:52 | |
"I ought to read every one of those!" | 0:32:52 | 0:32:54 | |
I said, "Be my guest"... | 0:32:54 | 0:32:55 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:32:55 | 0:32:57 | |
..and sat down on one of my suitcases. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:00 | |
And he blanched at this. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:02 | |
And he opened one and he looked here and there. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:05 | |
There's a bit towards the end about Karl Marx, | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
which I suddenly remembered and I thought to myself, | 0:33:11 | 0:33:13 | |
"God, I shouldn't have asked him that!" | 0:33:13 | 0:33:15 | |
But there it was, it was too late. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:16 | |
Then he looked at it, he looked at me, and he said, | 0:33:16 | 0:33:20 | |
"You write this, bud?" | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
So I said, rather proudly, "Yes." | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
He said, "This ain't never going to be no bestseller!" | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
That's just true, and I bet you that man thought | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
he said the most natural thing in the world. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:43 | |
I mean, literary criticism is obviously a natural gift | 0:33:43 | 0:33:46 | |
of customs officials. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:48 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
Well, that tells you all! | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
I mean, sometimes girls say it in funnier ways, | 0:33:53 | 0:33:55 | |
sometimes men say it in funnier ways. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
But by and large, there is this curious feeling | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
that everybody is the judge of everything. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
That makes life very different from this country. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
Can we now talk about the extraordinary documentary series | 0:34:06 | 0:34:10 | |
that you did on the BBC called The Ascent Of Man. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
Anybody, of course, who... | 0:34:13 | 0:34:15 | |
You filmed over a heck of a long period | 0:34:15 | 0:34:17 | |
and anybody who's ever been filming knows | 0:34:17 | 0:34:19 | |
there are moments both tragic and humorous | 0:34:19 | 0:34:21 | |
when you're making a documentary. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
What, in fact, was the funniest moment you had, do you think, | 0:34:23 | 0:34:27 | |
over all the time that you were filming? | 0:34:27 | 0:34:29 | |
HE CHUCKLES | 0:34:35 | 0:34:37 | |
I suppose the funniest moment, from the producer's point of view, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
was the night he locked me in my bedroom on Easter Island | 0:34:40 | 0:34:43 | |
and I, who had drunk far too much, I couldn't get out! | 0:34:43 | 0:34:48 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:34:48 | 0:34:49 | |
But I will pass over the disasters... | 0:34:49 | 0:34:52 | |
The moment that always stuck in my mind... | 0:34:52 | 0:34:56 | |
I'll ask you about that later. | 0:34:56 | 0:34:57 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:34:57 | 0:35:00 | |
The moment that has most stuck in my mind | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
is a moment when I arrived in Jerusalem. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
Now, I had been to the Middle East before, | 0:35:05 | 0:35:08 | |
but at that time, Jerusalem was a divided city. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
And we were going to do some filming in Jerusalem, | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
and I went up to a taxi driver on a very rainy afternoon | 0:35:13 | 0:35:20 | |
and I said, "Will you drive me to Calvary?" | 0:35:20 | 0:35:24 | |
And he said, "I can't take you all the way. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:31 | |
"Calvary is a one-way street." | 0:35:31 | 0:35:35 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:35:35 | 0:35:36 | |
"You have to walk part of the way." | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:35:38 | 0:35:40 | |
And in retrospect, that seemed to me so exotic. | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
I mean, he didn't think he was funny any more than the customs man. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:47 | |
But it seemed to me just to summarise | 0:35:47 | 0:35:49 | |
what happens to you all the time on the series, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
that your mind is bound up with what you're doing, | 0:35:52 | 0:35:55 | |
you're about to walk the road of Christ. | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
Er, we were about to do a sequence which you will have seen in number 13 | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
of Christ coming down the Mount of Olives | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
and looking over before they enter into Jerusalem. | 0:36:05 | 0:36:08 | |
And I wanted to see it all on the spot, but to him, | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
Calvary was a one-way street. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
Yes. That's progress, is it, I suppose? Invented a one-way street. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:16 | |
What about... One assumes, actually, looking at the series | 0:36:16 | 0:36:19 | |
and reading your book as well, | 0:36:19 | 0:36:21 | |
that one of the most horrific moments for you, personally, must have been | 0:36:21 | 0:36:24 | |
going back to Auschwitz. | 0:36:24 | 0:36:26 | |
Did you have to steel yourself before you did that? | 0:36:26 | 0:36:30 | |
Well, I wasn't very keen to go. | 0:36:30 | 0:36:32 | |
I wasn't very keen to go because... | 0:36:34 | 0:36:37 | |
many of my relatives from Poland had died in Auschwitz. | 0:36:37 | 0:36:41 | |
Er... | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
However... | 0:36:45 | 0:36:46 | |
the point of the series was that it wasn't an entertainment, | 0:36:46 | 0:36:49 | |
it was about life the way it... It is, the way it has been. | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
Er... | 0:36:55 | 0:36:56 | |
And we just made up our minds to make it | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
as true as, er...as we try to do everything in the series. | 0:37:01 | 0:37:07 | |
That is... | 0:37:07 | 0:37:08 | |
I said, "I'll go for one day, | 0:37:09 | 0:37:12 | |
"and during the morning we'll walk round, | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
"and in the afternoon we'll do the one piece | 0:37:14 | 0:37:17 | |
"by the pond that we know we want to do." | 0:37:17 | 0:37:19 | |
I had never seen Auschwitz. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:20 | |
You know, I had practically seen none of those places | 0:37:20 | 0:37:24 | |
in the...programmes | 0:37:24 | 0:37:26 | |
for reasons that I'll be happy to tell you about afterwards. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:30 | |
But Auschwitz I hadn't been to at all. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:32 | |
And we arrived at this station | 0:37:32 | 0:37:35 | |
which had been...looked over by the producer in advance, | 0:37:35 | 0:37:41 | |
so he knew what we should see. | 0:37:41 | 0:37:43 | |
I went through these terrible wooden and iron gates | 0:37:43 | 0:37:48 | |
that say "Arbeit macht frei" at the top, "work makes free". | 0:37:48 | 0:37:54 | |
So these unhappy people who went there | 0:37:54 | 0:37:56 | |
to their deaths, to the gas ovens... | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
I was particularly keen | 0:37:59 | 0:38:01 | |
to see bunker 12 and 11, where people were, er... | 0:38:01 | 0:38:06 | |
..beaten and shot for breach of regulations, | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
because I sort of felt that you must see it all. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:14 | |
But it turned out that the things that were far more moving | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
were ones that I couldn't have imagined at all. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:21 | |
The Germans are terribly methodical. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
So there would be whole areas which contained | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
nothing but old spectacles that had all been very carefully collected. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:32 | |
They weren't the slightest use, | 0:38:33 | 0:38:35 | |
but the Germans weren't going to throw them away. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:38 | |
There were areas which were entirely full of human hair. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
There was a terrible area | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
which was entirely full of wooden legs | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
and crutches and artificial limbs. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
And the most pathetic area of all, | 0:38:51 | 0:38:53 | |
an area which was just full of little tin chamber pots | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
that children who had come to the camp had brought with them | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
and that the Germans had collected. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:01 | |
Well, by this time I was in a pretty low frame of mind... | 0:39:01 | 0:39:05 | |
..and the most awful thing was that there were... | 0:39:06 | 0:39:10 | |
pictures in the corridors of prisoners... | 0:39:10 | 0:39:16 | |
..which were just the ordinary picture, you know, front face, | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
number on the bottom. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:23 | |
But many of them were pictures of quite young people, children. | 0:39:23 | 0:39:28 | |
And to see these pictures of people taken as if they were criminals, | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
with the tears streaming down their face, was just unbearable. | 0:39:31 | 0:39:35 | |
Well, then we drove over to the pond, | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
and we had arranged that we were... | 0:39:39 | 0:39:43 | |
I was just going to say a piece to close that programme at the pond, | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
which would arise out of what I'd seen in the morning. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
So I sort of walked up and down for five minutes, | 0:39:49 | 0:39:53 | |
making up my mind what I was going to say, | 0:39:53 | 0:39:55 | |
and then...we did it. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:59 | |
One take and we go home. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:01 | |
We had made up our minds that it was a piece | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
which you couldn't possibly do twice. You just had to say | 0:40:04 | 0:40:07 | |
- what came into your mind. - Yes. | 0:40:07 | 0:40:09 | |
And the thing that came into my mind, | 0:40:09 | 0:40:11 | |
absolutely out of the blue, was the phrase | 0:40:11 | 0:40:14 | |
from Oliver Cromwell that I quote, | 0:40:14 | 0:40:16 | |
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
"think it possible you may be mistaken." | 0:40:19 | 0:40:22 | |
Mm. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:23 | |
Do you find that, personally, more harrowing | 0:40:25 | 0:40:27 | |
than your visit...and more moving on you as a scientist and a human being, | 0:40:27 | 0:40:31 | |
than visiting, as you did, Hiroshima and Nagasaki? | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
Yes. You see, of course... | 0:40:42 | 0:40:46 | |
..Nagasaki, in which I arrived late one night... | 0:40:47 | 0:40:50 | |
..was awful. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:52 | |
But... | 0:40:54 | 0:40:56 | |
we all knew we could do something about that. | 0:40:56 | 0:40:58 | |
I mean, there were... | 0:40:58 | 0:41:00 | |
Every one of us was going to follow his conscience | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
in doing something to try and prevent a repetition of Nagasaki. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
My friend William Penney chose his way, | 0:41:13 | 0:41:16 | |
I chose my way, but each of us was clear | 0:41:16 | 0:41:20 | |
that there was something human beings could do | 0:41:20 | 0:41:22 | |
to prevent that kind of war, that kind of use of weapons. | 0:41:22 | 0:41:26 | |
Our responsibility was brought home to us, | 0:41:27 | 0:41:29 | |
and as a matter of fact, my responsibility was largely exercised | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
in giving the lectures on Science And Human Values | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
and having people read them, | 0:41:35 | 0:41:36 | |
and in fact thereby approaching | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
the whole problem of scientific responsibility. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
But Auschwitz was... | 0:41:41 | 0:41:42 | |
It was just hopeless. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:45 | |
You know, if a civilised country... | 0:41:45 | 0:41:47 | |
..could allow that sort of bestiality to become part of its... | 0:41:48 | 0:41:54 | |
..relation to other human beings, I just felt that... | 0:41:56 | 0:42:01 | |
..I just felt that the future had fallen in. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:06 | |
How were you ever going to make people understand that, er... | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
..human beings are individual? | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
You have to touch them, | 0:42:19 | 0:42:20 | |
you have to know that every one of those children, | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
every one of those chaps with the wooden leg and so on | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
were people, and however much they might be, er, your enemies... | 0:42:26 | 0:42:32 | |
..you couldn't take on yourself that responsibility. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
I find it difficult to find the right words...for that. | 0:42:39 | 0:42:45 | |
You must see programme 11 and see them, but... | 0:42:46 | 0:42:50 | |
I want to explain one thing to you. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
See, the most awful thing about Auschwitz was | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
that you realised that the people who had been killed in the gas ovens, | 0:42:56 | 0:43:00 | |
they were just dead. They were the fortunate ones. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
But the people who shoved another lot of people into the gas oven next day, | 0:43:03 | 0:43:08 | |
they were like characters out of Dante's Inferno, | 0:43:08 | 0:43:12 | |
living an endless hell, | 0:43:12 | 0:43:14 | |
because they had lost all sense of human feeling | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
and were going to repeat tomorrow the unutterable bestiality | 0:43:16 | 0:43:21 | |
- that they had practised today. - Yes. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:23 | |
I... Yes, I see the horror | 0:43:26 | 0:43:27 | |
and obviously the effect it had on you. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:30 | |
I can't see myself that it's any more horrible than the man | 0:43:30 | 0:43:34 | |
who allows the A-bomb to be dropped | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
on a defenceless civilian population and kill 60,000 people. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:41 | |
I mean, I think that, er... one is as great a crime as another, | 0:43:41 | 0:43:46 | |
and it leads me on to this thing, too, | 0:43:46 | 0:43:48 | |
about therefore the responsibility of the scientist. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
What happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki | 0:43:51 | 0:43:54 | |
was the work of men like yourself. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
And it comes into this area, doesn't it, of moral responsibility? | 0:43:57 | 0:44:00 | |
Are scientists really interested in human beings, | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
or is it just ideas that they're bothered about? | 0:44:03 | 0:44:07 | |
Er... Do you mind if I take that in two parts? | 0:44:11 | 0:44:15 | |
You said something at the outset | 0:44:15 | 0:44:16 | |
which I think is very wise and very true, | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
and one should just know. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:20 | |
I know that it's more sensational in a newspaper | 0:44:20 | 0:44:24 | |
to say that so-and-so has committed a mass murder, | 0:44:24 | 0:44:27 | |
slit the throats of ten people, four of them children, | 0:44:27 | 0:44:31 | |
rather than just say slit the throat of one person. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:33 | |
But in fact, in my opinion, | 0:44:33 | 0:44:35 | |
there is no difference between unutterable crimes. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
And the man who killed a single child in Auschwitz | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
and the man who killed 80,000 people at Hiroshima... | 0:44:42 | 0:44:46 | |
..I think those crimes are absolutely on a par. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:50 | |
We must learn that crime is something to do with | 0:44:50 | 0:44:53 | |
your relation with a human being. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:55 | |
When you sit and press that button, | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
there should be a person at the end of it, | 0:44:58 | 0:45:00 | |
and the person should look like your sweetheart. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:02 | |
And you should say to yourself, "It's her. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:06 | |
"It's somebody for whom I have all those feelings." | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
So I make no distinction between the gravity | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
of these crimes. They're enormous. | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
Now you ask the question, what about the scientists? | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
After all, what about the chaps who actually invented the gas | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
that they were using at Auschwitz and so on? | 0:45:21 | 0:45:23 | |
One is faced at many moments in one's life | 0:45:36 | 0:45:41 | |
between loyalties which are not compatible. | 0:45:41 | 0:45:45 | |
One is faced with the question of loyalty | 0:45:47 | 0:45:50 | |
to one's country as against loyalty to one's religion. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
Think of all the Roman Catholics who were tortured to death | 0:45:54 | 0:45:57 | |
in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, | 0:45:57 | 0:45:59 | |
who were constantly faced by that. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:02 | |
Spies are faced by questions of loyalty to some faith or the like. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:07 | |
And during the war, many scientists were faced | 0:46:07 | 0:46:10 | |
with a very simple and brutal question, which is, | 0:46:10 | 0:46:13 | |
"Do I feel about the civilisation in which I work | 0:46:13 | 0:46:19 | |
"strongly enough to do anything to resist the Nazi threat | 0:46:19 | 0:46:24 | |
"to make a bomb first?" | 0:46:24 | 0:46:26 | |
And we all felt "yes" about that, | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
all of us, and I have no doubt that all of us would do that again. | 0:46:28 | 0:46:32 | |
We felt quite certain that to allow | 0:46:33 | 0:46:36 | |
what was then going on in Central Europe... | 0:46:36 | 0:46:39 | |
..what we had seen films of in Poland and Russia... | 0:46:41 | 0:46:45 | |
to become normal over the world | 0:46:45 | 0:46:48 | |
was something which we must resist | 0:46:48 | 0:46:50 | |
by all the technical means which we possessed, | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
that we would be traitors to the intelligence we had been provided for | 0:46:53 | 0:46:58 | |
to turn round and say to Mr Winston Churchill, | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
"I know you want the bomb, but you're a warmonger. | 0:47:00 | 0:47:03 | |
"I am a peaceful man, I would rather go to jail." | 0:47:03 | 0:47:06 | |
I think an individual can say that, but I don't think | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
that you can blame an individual who says, "No, I can't say that". | 0:47:09 | 0:47:13 | |
The questions arise about what happens | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
at the moment when other people make up their minds to drop the bomb, | 0:47:18 | 0:47:22 | |
because I don't have to tell you that no scientist was asked | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
about dropping the bomb, and those who knew | 0:47:25 | 0:47:28 | |
it was going to be dropped - Szilard, Wigner, | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
the people who signed the Wigner Memorandum - | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
they were very much against it. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
They said that dropping the bomb at that stage in the war was a mistake. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:42 | |
But, you see, they wouldn't have felt that | 0:47:42 | 0:47:44 | |
if it had been a crucial question | 0:47:44 | 0:47:47 | |
about dropping it on Berlin at an earlier stage in the war | 0:47:47 | 0:47:50 | |
if we had been threatened by it. They're terrible dilemmas. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:53 | |
I mean, that's what morality's about. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:55 | |
That's what being a human being's about. | 0:47:55 | 0:47:57 | |
You are faced with questions of value | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
to which there are no numerical answers. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
Never think that you can write down an equation | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
at the end of which you say in a satisfactory tone of voice, | 0:48:06 | 0:48:11 | |
"That's fine, I have now proved loyalty to my country is | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
"more important than loyalty to the scientific tradition". | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
No, no, that's always got to be a personal choice. | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
Well, let me put something else to you, then, that's on the same theme, | 0:48:20 | 0:48:23 | |
which is a quote from the French Nobel Prize winner, | 0:48:23 | 0:48:25 | |
Professor Jacques Monod. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:27 | |
And he said, "Supposing someone discovered | 0:48:27 | 0:48:30 | |
"a foolproof method of finding out whether | 0:48:30 | 0:48:32 | |
"different races had genetic differences in intelligence. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:37 | |
"Now, if it was applied and the differences were found," | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
he said, "the results would inevitably be grossly misused." | 0:48:40 | 0:48:42 | |
Then he asked the question, | 0:48:42 | 0:48:44 | |
"Should the scientist bury his secret or publish in an obscure journal, | 0:48:44 | 0:48:48 | |
"hoping that this would delay the news leaking out?" | 0:48:48 | 0:48:52 | |
Now that's a dilemma, isn't it, in a situation? | 0:48:52 | 0:48:54 | |
I mean, what would you do in a situation like that? | 0:48:54 | 0:48:56 | |
It's a very good question. Er... | 0:48:56 | 0:48:59 | |
HE CHUCKLES | 0:48:59 | 0:49:00 | |
Jacques Monod is a colleague of mine | 0:49:02 | 0:49:04 | |
at the Salk Institute, I should explain to you. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:06 | |
So I'm not saying, no, it's a good question because, | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
er...we spend time together. | 0:49:09 | 0:49:14 | |
It IS a good question. | 0:49:14 | 0:49:16 | |
I know what I would do. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:19 | |
I would publish. | 0:49:21 | 0:49:22 | |
And I must now explain to you why I think this. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
You see, I think we've all got to understand | 0:49:28 | 0:49:31 | |
that all this talk about | 0:49:31 | 0:49:33 | |
"black people have a lower IQ than white people" | 0:49:33 | 0:49:37 | |
or "Jews have a higher IQ than non-Jews..." | 0:49:37 | 0:49:41 | |
..is all a load of rubbish... | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
..because the average IQ of a sample of the population | 0:49:48 | 0:49:53 | |
is absolutely of no interest. | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
In your work, in my work, in everybody's work | 0:49:58 | 0:50:03 | |
who is listening to us at this moment, they never deal with... | 0:50:03 | 0:50:06 | |
the average IQ of a million people. They deal with persons. | 0:50:06 | 0:50:10 | |
Now, think of my picture of the tall European men | 0:50:11 | 0:50:15 | |
and the little Japanese men. | 0:50:15 | 0:50:17 | |
Nobody argues about the fact | 0:50:17 | 0:50:19 | |
that the Japanese are genetically smaller than the whites, | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
because fortunately, it's there, it's fixed, | 0:50:22 | 0:50:25 | |
and nobody thinks that it's terribly important. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:28 | |
And we must understand the same about the IQ. | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
There are these two... mountains of IQ, | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
say the blacks here and the whites there. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
We don't know how far apart the means are, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:40 | |
but they probably are some distance apart. | 0:50:40 | 0:50:43 | |
After all, there's not the slightest doubt | 0:50:43 | 0:50:45 | |
that black people have other physical advantages over white people, | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
of which they ought, equally, to be proud. | 0:50:49 | 0:50:52 | |
But the point is that there are millions of black people | 0:50:53 | 0:50:57 | |
who are cleverer than other millions of white people. | 0:50:57 | 0:51:01 | |
These mountains that I am picturing, | 0:51:03 | 0:51:06 | |
that contain one population and another, | 0:51:06 | 0:51:09 | |
may have their peaks in slightly different places, | 0:51:09 | 0:51:12 | |
but they overlap in the main, | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
so that the world is just as full | 0:51:15 | 0:51:20 | |
of clever black people and clever yellow people | 0:51:20 | 0:51:22 | |
and clever red people as it is of clever white people. | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
And when Mr Jensen, in his academic way, | 0:51:26 | 0:51:29 | |
or Mr Shockley in his more downright way, | 0:51:29 | 0:51:32 | |
says, "We ought to educate them differently," | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
or we ought to do this, that and the other, I think that's just wrong. | 0:51:35 | 0:51:37 | |
I think we ought to recognise that everybody has a different gift. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:41 | |
You asked me a very nice question at the beginning - | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
when was I aware of my mental gifts? | 0:51:43 | 0:51:46 | |
I didn't think they were anything special, | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
because, I mean, you know, when I was a boy at school, | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
I wanted to run the mile in four and a half minutes. | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
Well, you know, I stood no more chance | 0:51:54 | 0:51:55 | |
of running the mile in four and a half minutes | 0:51:55 | 0:51:57 | |
than in running it in three and a half minutes. | 0:51:57 | 0:51:59 | |
I wasn't built that way. But I didn't go around saying, | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
"You mustn't publish this result - everybody will think I'm a poor chap, | 0:52:02 | 0:52:06 | |
"I can't run the mile in four and a half minutes." | 0:52:06 | 0:52:08 | |
And I haven't gone round saying that everybody | 0:52:08 | 0:52:10 | |
who runs the mile in less than four minutes now | 0:52:10 | 0:52:13 | |
ought to be put up against a wall and shot. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:15 | |
Why?! | 0:52:15 | 0:52:16 | |
People are different, and thank God they are! | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
What has made the human race the wonderful thing it is? | 0:52:19 | 0:52:23 | |
The fact that variety is its spice, its being. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:28 | |
We are more varied in our accomplishments, | 0:52:28 | 0:52:32 | |
we are more able to distribute tasks between us | 0:52:32 | 0:52:36 | |
because you can do one thing better than I, | 0:52:36 | 0:52:38 | |
and I can do another thing. | 0:52:38 | 0:52:39 | |
And instead of our cutting our heads open | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
with battle-axes in order to demonstrate this - | 0:52:42 | 0:52:44 | |
a contest which I should inevitably lose - I'm most anxious | 0:52:44 | 0:52:48 | |
to say to you in a peaceful way, | 0:52:48 | 0:52:50 | |
like I would be anxious to say to President Sadat, | 0:52:50 | 0:52:53 | |
"Look, chum, let's just get on with the business of living | 0:52:53 | 0:52:58 | |
"and contributing our different gifts". | 0:52:58 | 0:53:01 | |
And IQ is just like any other, | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
like musical ability or chess or any other. | 0:53:05 | 0:53:08 | |
Mm. What is the main problem, Doctor, | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
as you look then, today, look around you? | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
What's the main problem in the world, facing the world, today? | 0:53:13 | 0:53:16 | |
I think that the main problem is of our making. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:28 | |
In the... | 0:53:30 | 0:53:31 | |
..50-odd years since I came to this country... | 0:53:35 | 0:53:37 | |
..we have widened the intellectual interests and aspirations of people, | 0:53:40 | 0:53:47 | |
oh, a thousandfold. | 0:53:47 | 0:53:50 | |
We have invented... | 0:53:50 | 0:53:51 | |
..television programmes like this. We have invented the paperback. | 0:53:54 | 0:53:59 | |
MICHAEL LAUGHS Well? | 0:53:59 | 0:54:01 | |
I know that some of the pictures, obviously, | 0:54:01 | 0:54:04 | |
are not very revealing about the content. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:06 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:54:06 | 0:54:07 | |
But, you know, if you can't sell Plato | 0:54:07 | 0:54:09 | |
without a naked girl on the cover, | 0:54:09 | 0:54:11 | |
good luck, so far as I'm concerned. | 0:54:11 | 0:54:14 | |
Plato and I would be of one mind. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:16 | |
My only objection is that I shall have to be dead a long time | 0:54:16 | 0:54:20 | |
before I rival Plato, | 0:54:20 | 0:54:23 | |
because I'm still in copyright and he's out of copyright. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:26 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:54:26 | 0:54:27 | |
We have invented an ability... | 0:54:28 | 0:54:33 | |
for people in all countries, but in Western countries in particular... | 0:54:33 | 0:54:37 | |
..to share not just wealth | 0:54:39 | 0:54:43 | |
but the intellectual wealth. | 0:54:43 | 0:54:45 | |
Er... | 0:54:46 | 0:54:49 | |
You know, 50 years ago, what organisation in the world | 0:54:49 | 0:54:54 | |
would have put up that money | 0:54:54 | 0:54:55 | |
to put out my programmes on The Ascent Of Man? | 0:54:55 | 0:54:58 | |
What organisation would have put all that money | 0:55:01 | 0:55:03 | |
into printing that beautiful book? | 0:55:03 | 0:55:06 | |
And I would never have spent my time breaking my heart | 0:55:06 | 0:55:10 | |
to make sure the book was, you know, as gorgeous as it could be, | 0:55:10 | 0:55:14 | |
because I'm as anxious to get these things into people's hands | 0:55:14 | 0:55:17 | |
as they are to have them. | 0:55:17 | 0:55:20 | |
Well, that's gone very fast in the last 50 years, | 0:55:20 | 0:55:23 | |
and we haven't nearly caught up with it. | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
Er, we still have far too few people | 0:55:25 | 0:55:29 | |
to bring these gifts to others. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:33 | |
We still don't know how to satisfy | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
the leisure aspirations of most people. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
Above all, we don't know how to provide enough jobs | 0:55:39 | 0:55:43 | |
which are fundamentally interesting in themselves. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:46 | |
Mm. And are there too many of us, as well, would you say? | 0:55:46 | 0:55:49 | |
Is that another problem? | 0:55:49 | 0:55:51 | |
You see, I don't believe in problems | 0:55:56 | 0:55:59 | |
which are always other people's problems. | 0:55:59 | 0:56:01 | |
I have four children. They are all daughters, | 0:56:01 | 0:56:04 | |
so they add to the natural reproduction rate rather a lot. | 0:56:04 | 0:56:09 | |
And I just would think it impertinent to say to any person in the world, | 0:56:09 | 0:56:14 | |
black, white, yellow... | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
.."It's OK for me to have four kids, but you mustn't." | 0:56:19 | 0:56:22 | |
So I don't think there are too many of us. | 0:56:22 | 0:56:24 | |
I think that these things have to adjust themselves, | 0:56:24 | 0:56:27 | |
as people find what they prefer to children, and it is doing so. | 0:56:27 | 0:56:32 | |
So I don't think there are too many of us. | 0:56:32 | 0:56:34 | |
No, I think that what we haven't solved is | 0:56:34 | 0:56:37 | |
the problem to which I come back, | 0:56:37 | 0:56:39 | |
of giving people very satisfying jobs... | 0:56:39 | 0:56:42 | |
Mm. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:43 | |
..the things that the hippies tried to do but failed | 0:56:43 | 0:56:46 | |
and the things at which, you know, | 0:56:46 | 0:56:48 | |
the few privileged of us, like you and me, are so good. | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
I just think that I've had the most wonderful life in the world, | 0:56:52 | 0:56:55 | |
because, like every scientist, | 0:56:55 | 0:56:57 | |
I share with prostitutes the only really satisfying job. | 0:56:57 | 0:57:02 | |
I'm actually paid to do what I like doing. | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:57:05 | 0:57:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:57:07 | 0:57:09 | |
I doubt if many prostitutes would agree with that! I mean... | 0:57:13 | 0:57:16 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:57:16 | 0:57:18 | |
There are some subjects on which I cede specialisation to you, I admit. | 0:57:20 | 0:57:26 | |
LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE | 0:57:26 | 0:57:29 | |
- Get out of that, as they say. - I'm sorry, | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
- that was... - No, no, no. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:38 | |
I like a bit of knock-about now and again. | 0:57:38 | 0:57:41 | |
Can we, finally, for the last few minutes we've got, | 0:57:41 | 0:57:44 | |
just look towards the world of the future? | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
Because in reading through all about you, | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
you've speculated very interestingly in certain areas. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:53 | |
For instance, you... | 0:57:53 | 0:57:55 | |
And I'd like to sort of explain how this would happen. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:58 | |
There was one article I read by you where you said it's conceivable | 0:57:58 | 0:58:01 | |
that in the future we will be able to select the sex of a child. | 0:58:01 | 0:58:05 | |
A couple will be able to select... | 0:58:06 | 0:58:08 | |
How exactly would that happen, Doctor? | 0:58:08 | 0:58:12 | |
Well, it's clear that the sex... | 0:58:14 | 0:58:20 | |
of a fertilised ovum... | 0:58:20 | 0:58:23 | |
is determined very early, | 0:58:23 | 0:58:25 | |
because the sperm that has entered the ovum | 0:58:25 | 0:58:29 | |
carries either a Y chromosome | 0:58:29 | 0:58:33 | |
or an X chromosome | 0:58:33 | 0:58:35 | |
to couple with the X chromosome in the egg. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:39 | |
And if it carries a Y chromosome, | 0:58:39 | 0:58:43 | |
then the fertilised egg will make a male. | 0:58:43 | 0:58:47 | |
Right. | 0:58:47 | 0:58:49 | |
Er... | 0:58:51 | 0:58:53 | |
Now, two things may be possible. | 0:58:53 | 0:58:56 | |
It may be possible to determine which it is quite early, | 0:58:56 | 0:59:01 | |
by chemical or other tests. | 0:59:01 | 0:59:03 | |
And then, if you wish to abort quite early on, | 0:59:03 | 0:59:07 | |
probably within the second month, | 0:59:07 | 0:59:10 | |
a child of the wrong sex... | 0:59:10 | 0:59:13 | |
You can see the moral problem, | 0:59:13 | 0:59:15 | |
that, if I were to be presented with a prophecy that my fifth baby | 0:59:15 | 0:59:19 | |
was to be a daughter, what would I do? | 0:59:19 | 0:59:22 | |
But it may also be possible to do something quite different. | 0:59:22 | 0:59:25 | |
It may be possible to take sperm... | 0:59:25 | 0:59:28 | |
..and to sort it in such a way that, | 0:59:30 | 0:59:32 | |
although you can't be certain | 0:59:32 | 0:59:34 | |
that you've now got one bag carrying X chromosomes | 0:59:34 | 0:59:37 | |
and one bag carrying Y chromosomes, | 0:59:37 | 0:59:39 | |
that the percentage of Xs is much higher in one | 0:59:39 | 0:59:42 | |
and the percentage of Ys is much higher in the other, | 0:59:42 | 0:59:45 | |
so that if you used that for artificial insemination, | 0:59:45 | 0:59:49 | |
then you would get a much higher chance of one or the other sex. | 0:59:49 | 0:59:52 | |
Now, this, of course, is into the future, | 0:59:52 | 0:59:54 | |
and of course it begs the final question to you, really, | 0:59:54 | 0:59:58 | |
about, what is your idea of Utopia? | 0:59:58 | 1:00:01 | |
You look ahead, what's the ideal for you? | 1:00:01 | 1:00:05 | |
I have no idea that is different | 1:00:05 | 1:00:11 | |
from the one that I put forward before, | 1:00:11 | 1:00:13 | |
when I made that joke about... | 1:00:13 | 1:00:16 | |
those of us who did jobs that we liked. | 1:00:16 | 1:00:19 | |
Er...I am convinced that human beings | 1:00:19 | 1:00:23 | |
take pleasure in work, not in idleness. | 1:00:23 | 1:00:27 | |
I am convinced that when people are accused of idleness, | 1:00:27 | 1:00:31 | |
it just means that they are being accused | 1:00:31 | 1:00:34 | |
of hating the humdrum job that doesn't tax them | 1:00:34 | 1:00:38 | |
that they've been put into. | 1:00:38 | 1:00:40 | |
So I am convinced that the ideal world for every human being | 1:00:40 | 1:00:45 | |
is one in which he or she does a job that they... | 1:00:45 | 1:00:50 | |
..are good at, like doing, that gives them satisfaction. | 1:00:51 | 1:00:54 | |
- That's my Utopia. - Mm. I started... | 1:00:54 | 1:00:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 1:00:57 | 1:01:00 | |
I started off, actually, by asking the question, | 1:01:03 | 1:01:06 | |
are people frightened of talking to you? | 1:01:06 | 1:01:08 | |
Could I be cheeky and ask you a question now? | 1:01:08 | 1:01:10 | |
Should we take notice of anything that you say? | 1:01:10 | 1:01:12 | |
LAUGHTER | 1:01:12 | 1:01:14 | |
Do you see what I mean? This sort of thing that people think... | 1:01:14 | 1:01:17 | |
It's true, there you are, the man with an opinion on everything, | 1:01:17 | 1:01:21 | |
a sort of oracle. How... | 1:01:21 | 1:01:24 | |
It's a difficult question, I know, but how accurate... | 1:01:24 | 1:01:27 | |
In fact, what's your function as that kind of person, as the oracle? | 1:01:27 | 1:01:32 | |
Should we really believe you, | 1:01:32 | 1:01:34 | |
or should we just sort of be sceptical or... | 1:01:34 | 1:01:36 | |
should we just think about what you've said? | 1:01:36 | 1:01:39 | |
That's a very good question. | 1:01:39 | 1:01:41 | |
LAUGHTER | 1:01:41 | 1:01:43 | |
That's the second one I've asked in an hour. | 1:01:43 | 1:01:45 | |
LAUGHTER | 1:01:45 | 1:01:46 | |
DR BRONOWSKI LAUGHS | 1:01:46 | 1:01:48 | |
No, it's a particularly good question | 1:01:48 | 1:01:50 | |
because it pays me out for that nasty remark I made. | 1:01:50 | 1:01:53 | |
But it's really a question I'm happy to have, | 1:01:55 | 1:02:00 | |
and it's for this reason. | 1:02:00 | 1:02:01 | |
You see, I'm not an oracle, | 1:02:08 | 1:02:11 | |
and although people liked me on The Brains Trust, | 1:02:11 | 1:02:13 | |
I often ask myself why. | 1:02:13 | 1:02:15 | |
And I'm naturally impressed at the attention | 1:02:15 | 1:02:19 | |
with which people have listened to me today. | 1:02:19 | 1:02:22 | |
I'm terribly impressed with the attention with which | 1:02:23 | 1:02:27 | |
you have listened to me. | 1:02:27 | 1:02:29 | |
You're not losing your place among the questions now and again, | 1:02:29 | 1:02:32 | |
which, you know, is a great piece of homage to me. | 1:02:32 | 1:02:35 | |
Why? | 1:02:37 | 1:02:38 | |
It's because I have been fortunate enough, by birth and education, | 1:02:41 | 1:02:46 | |
and particularly by being thrust into many strange environments, | 1:02:46 | 1:02:50 | |
to have had to shape a view of life | 1:02:50 | 1:02:54 | |
which is very tightly knit. | 1:02:54 | 1:02:57 | |
If you ask me a question about birth control | 1:02:57 | 1:03:01 | |
or a question about intelligence of black people, | 1:03:01 | 1:03:06 | |
or a question about... | 1:03:06 | 1:03:07 | |
..Utopia... | 1:03:10 | 1:03:12 | |
..there are not three clever men answering. | 1:03:14 | 1:03:17 | |
There is one man who is speaking from | 1:03:17 | 1:03:21 | |
a deep sense of inner conviction of what life is about. | 1:03:21 | 1:03:26 | |
That's what I think life is about. | 1:03:26 | 1:03:29 | |
My life has been happy... | 1:03:32 | 1:03:33 | |
..because, although I have suffered many conflicts of loyalty, | 1:03:41 | 1:03:44 | |
of which I spoke to you earlier, | 1:03:44 | 1:03:46 | |
I've never had any uncertainty about... | 1:03:46 | 1:03:50 | |
..the meaning of the word "good", | 1:03:52 | 1:03:54 | |
the meaning of the word "true", | 1:03:54 | 1:03:56 | |
the meaning of the word "beautiful" | 1:03:56 | 1:03:58 | |
and the meaning of the words like "original", "new", | 1:03:58 | 1:04:01 | |
what ought we to be doing. | 1:04:01 | 1:04:03 | |
I've always had a tremendous pride in being a human being | 1:04:03 | 1:04:07 | |
and being born into the 20th century. | 1:04:07 | 1:04:09 | |
I'm terribly sad that, you know, | 1:04:09 | 1:04:11 | |
30 years from now I shall be dead, because... | 1:04:11 | 1:04:14 | |
..not because anybody will miss me, but because I will miss them... | 1:04:16 | 1:04:19 | |
..because so many more marvellous things will be known. | 1:04:21 | 1:04:25 | |
Now, should you listen to me? | 1:04:25 | 1:04:27 | |
Yes. | 1:04:27 | 1:04:29 | |
Yes, you should. | 1:04:29 | 1:04:30 | |
Not because you have to believe any single thing that I say, | 1:04:30 | 1:04:33 | |
but because you have to... | 1:04:33 | 1:04:35 | |
..be pleased that there are people who have led | 1:04:38 | 1:04:43 | |
happy and complete lives, who feel that they can speak | 1:04:43 | 1:04:47 | |
out of a full heart and a full mind all in the same breath. | 1:04:47 | 1:04:53 | |
I take it as a privilege rather than a pleasure, Dr Bronowski. | 1:04:53 | 1:04:56 | |
Thank you very much indeed. | 1:04:56 | 1:04:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 1:04:57 | 1:04:59 |