Browse content similar to Sir John Betjeman & Gracie Fields. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
APPLAUSE | 0:00:18 | 0:00:27 | |
Evening and welcome. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:32 | |
Tonight is a very special occasion because I have | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
as my guests two very distinctive and distinguished people. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
One is someone who is arguably the greatest entertainer | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
this country has ever produced and she is Gracie Fields. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
The other, my first guest, | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
is also arguably the most entertainingly paradoxical figure | 0:00:46 | 0:00:48 | |
in Britain today. He was once described, and I quote, | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
as, "a popular poet who has the respect of unpopular poets." | 0:00:51 | 0:00:54 | |
He's a bestselling poet | 0:00:54 | 0:00:55 | |
in an age when poetry is not much bought or read, | 0:00:55 | 0:00:59 | |
a man who regrets much that has happened to the English way of life | 0:00:59 | 0:01:02 | |
and yet who's celebrated the nature | 0:01:02 | 0:01:04 | |
of the modern existence that he deplores. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
As another poet once said of him, and I quote again, | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
"He's always been easy to underestimate." | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
Lately his career has entered new territory with a series of records | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
in which his verse is set to music. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
The tunes are by Jim Parker, | 0:01:16 | 0:01:17 | |
the words and the performance are by our Poet Laureate, | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
Sir John Betjeman. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:24 | 0:01:30 | |
THEY PLAY IN A TRAD JAZZ STYLE | 0:01:32 | 0:01:42 | |
How straight it flew, how long it flew, | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
It clear'd the rutty track, | 0:01:57 | 0:01:59 | |
And soaring, disappeared from view | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
Beyond the bunker's back. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
A glorious, sailing, bounding drive | 0:02:05 | 0:02:08 | |
That made me glad I was alive. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:17 | |
And down the fairway, straight and long | 0:02:27 | 0:02:31 | |
It glowed a lonely white | 0:02:31 | 0:02:34 | |
I played an iron sure and strong | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
And clipp'd it out of sight, | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
And spite of grassy banks between | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
I knew I'd find it on the green. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
And so I did. It lay content | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
Two paces from the pin | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
A steady putt and then it went | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
Oh, most securely in | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
The very turf rejoiced to see | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
That quite unprecedented three. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:06 | |
Ah! Seaweed smells from sandy caves | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
And thyme and mist in whiffs, | 0:03:24 | 0:03:27 | |
Incoming tide, Atlantic waves | 0:03:27 | 0:03:32 | |
Slapping the sunny cliffs, | 0:03:32 | 0:03:34 | |
Larksong and sea sounds in the air | 0:03:34 | 0:03:37 | |
And splendour, splendour everywhere. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:43 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:45 | 0:03:54 | |
That was my first guest tonight, Sir John Betjeman. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:56 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:56 | 0:04:01 | |
As someone newly taken up golf myself I love that poem, actually. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
Very kind of you. Smashing poem. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:16 | |
Are you much of a golfer yourself? | 0:04:16 | 0:04:17 | |
Very bad. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
I used to be better than I am now but I was never really good. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
Yes. And people, ahem, I hoped, | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
weren't looking when I did the bad shots. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:30 | |
They never were when I did the good ones. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
Yes, I think every golfer could say that, Sir John, yes. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
What about this fusion now, of your poetry and music? | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
You've had quite a staggering success, actually. | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
You're a best selling long-playing record artist now, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
because I think Banana Blush, I think that sold about 20,000 copies, | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
which is very good indeed. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:50 | |
I wonder how easy you felt in this situation? | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
I was very pleased and delighted when Jim Parker, | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
whom I hadn't met but I met through the Barrow Poets, | 0:04:58 | 0:05:02 | |
wanted to do these, set these things to music. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
And he's a very quiet, modest man. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
And his music seemed to catch the mood of the verse. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
I was staggered and delighted. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
How musical are you, in fact? | 0:05:15 | 0:05:16 | |
Can't sing a note in tune. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
I know about rhythm, I think, and the sound of words. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:23 | |
I'm not really musical, | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
and I was always told by my parents I wasn't musical because I couldn't | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
sing in tune. Was there any music in your family, though, at all? | 0:05:31 | 0:05:36 | |
Oh, I had forebears who were musical, yes. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
There was an old thing called Gilbert Betjeman | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
who was a great friend of Grieg, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
and was something to do with Covent Garden, | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
I think he was first violin, | 0:05:47 | 0:05:48 | |
and he introduced Wagner to Glasgow first. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:55 | |
And when the music started, the audience began to laugh. | 0:05:55 | 0:06:00 | |
So Gilbert Betjeman tapped his baton | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
on the whatever it is, and said, | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
"Are you going to listen to this music or are you not? | 0:06:06 | 0:06:11 | |
"Because if you don't, I shall go home and enjoy a whisky toddy." | 0:06:11 | 0:06:16 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:06:16 | 0:06:18 | |
And they stayed? They did, yes. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
Are you an admirer of lyricists, of lyric writers? | 0:06:21 | 0:06:25 | |
Very much. And particularly... Who's your favourite? | 0:06:25 | 0:06:30 | |
Lorenz Hart is my favourite. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
All-time favourite, I think. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
Didn't he write My Heart Stood Still? | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
I think he did. "I took one look at you." | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
Oh, he's like Burns, he's frightfully good. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
Yes. Do you think it stands up as poetry, | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
some of the best lyric writers? I'm sure it does. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
And I think some of the best is Cole Porter. Yes. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
Once described to me by another lyric writer as being both | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
Gilbert and Sullivan, because he wrote the music... | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
The music and the words, did he? | 0:06:56 | 0:06:58 | |
Yes. What's the difference, do you think, Sir John, | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
I mean, why did you never write a lyric for a song? | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
Because several other very good writers have done that. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
PG Wodehouse, for instance, he wrote lyrics for songs, didn't he? | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
Did he? That was clever of him. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:07:12 | 0:07:16 | |
I can't, er, get the tune in my head | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
to write the words that'll go with it. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:24 | |
I'd have to write the words first and trust to luck, | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
as with Jim Parker, that the right tune had come along. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
Tell me about writing poetry. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
As you get older, is it easier or harder to write poetry? | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
Harder and slower. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
A very kind question. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
Why, why is it a kind question? | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
Because it doesn't get easier. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:48 | |
It doesn't? I find I do it, | 0:07:48 | 0:07:50 | |
and I find I only think of something in the morning when I wake up, | 0:07:50 | 0:07:54 | |
a line occurs. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:56 | |
Then if I've got a pencil near, I write it down, | 0:07:56 | 0:07:59 | |
and then I look at it at breakfast and it's awful. | 0:07:59 | 0:08:02 | |
And I hope for the best | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
and that it'll gradually be added to during the day. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
Walking about, I find the best way of writing poetry. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
Was it ever easy for you, though? | 0:08:13 | 0:08:14 | |
Yes. It was? I longed to do it all the time. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
And I felt every time I didn't write a poem | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
when I had a bit of spare time I was wasting my time. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
Really? And the words literally flowed in those days? | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
Yes. And nothing made time rush by quicker | 0:08:25 | 0:08:29 | |
than sitting down with a poem in mind and writing it out, | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
and part of the pleasure is writing it on the page, | 0:08:32 | 0:08:37 | |
and seeing how it looks. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:43 | |
And then reciting it again and again, | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
then trying it out on a friend, whom you can trust, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:50 | |
and then you can tell whether they like it or not. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:55 | |
If they cough, you know it's a bore. and it won't work. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
And what do you do on those occasions? | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
You didn't publish the poem, or do you rewrite it, or what? | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
Well, I had a very kind publisher who I knew at Oxford. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
I think everything is done by graft. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
And, if I hadn't known this man I would never have been printed, | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
I don't expect. Mm, mm. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:20 | |
When in fact did you last write a poem, | 0:09:20 | 0:09:22 | |
or attempt to write a poem in recent weeks? | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
About three days ago I was trying to do one | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
on Peterborough Cathedral, | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
an un-regarded, beautiful building which has got in it | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
a chapel called St Sprite | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
and I imagine that's the Holy Spirit. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:43 | |
And it's such a nice name for a chapel, | 0:09:43 | 0:09:45 | |
I thought I'd try and do a thing about the Sprite | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
in Peterborough Cathedral. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:50 | |
I got the first words out, and have now lost them. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
You've lost them. Mislaid them? | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
Mislaid them somewhere. | 0:09:57 | 0:09:59 | |
Can't you remember them? No. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:00 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
So what are you going to do? Hope I'll find them again. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
You're not going to sit down and rewrite them, no. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
What, what, what moves you to write poetry nowadays? | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
What stirs you to write poetry? | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
Places, faces, eyes. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:23 | |
Eyes? Eyes. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
Why? I think people speak through their eyes. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:31 | |
And you can catch somebody's eye | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
and that's how you talk, very often. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
I think they're our antennae. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
Yes. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
So do you literally go round looking at people's eyes | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
and waiting for inspiration? | 0:10:44 | 0:10:45 | |
Well, not too pointedly, or you'll get into trouble. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
Of course you've always been moved in your poetry to write about | 0:10:51 | 0:11:01 | |
You, of course, were many things before you were a poet, Sir John. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
You've had some remarkable jobs. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:10 | |
You did all the things that James Thurber said he never did | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
before he became a writer. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:14 | |
You were once, you were what, a copywriter for Shell, weren't you? | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
Yes, indeed. I mean, how disastrous effect did that have on your spirit? | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
Or perhaps it didn't? I didn't like it very much. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
I started, though, as a journalist. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:24 | |
As you did. Yes. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:25 | |
And it teaches one to write things simply and not like, um, | 0:11:25 | 0:11:28 | |
government department forms. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:29 | |
Yes. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:30 | |
It's a very good training, it's a good training in economy, isn't it? | 0:11:30 | 0:11:33 | |
Yes. Yes. | 0:11:33 | 0:11:34 | |
Now, still on the advertising, I mean, | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
advertising slogans and phrases and this sort of thing | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
have always been a part of your poetry, haven't they? | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
You've always stuck them in there. What's the fascination you have? | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
I think sitting in the underground seeing things like, | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
"Whatever her party, the sweet young thing, | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
"it's certain she'll vote for a Bravington ring." | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
"He was bashful, she was shy, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
"a Bravington ring and the cloud passed by." | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
And, er, they didn't pay me - that suddenly occurred to me, that. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
Do they still exist? | 0:12:09 | 0:12:11 | |
Bravingtons? Yes. I think they do, yes, I think they do. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:15 | |
And was it Virol you used to...? | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
"Virol. Anaemic girls need it," do you know? | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
And iron jelloids. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
Mazawattee Tea, all those things, I think they are most beautiful names. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
Yes, Mazawattee Tea is beautiful, isn't it? | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
You really couldn't invent that as a writer, could you? | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
Which of all the jobs you did, Sir John, | 0:12:36 | 0:12:38 | |
on your way to becoming a poet, did you enjoy the most, | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
in the sense that it inspired the most poetry for you later on? | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
Undoubtedly being a schoolmaster. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:48 | |
Because it was being a single act on the stage, | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
having to keep everybody interested, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:54 | |
whatever their boredom was, | 0:12:54 | 0:12:59 | |
and you had to entertain and instruct. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:04 | |
And boys are very decent to talk to, young boys, | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
when they're sitting in a class. You can feel when they're bored. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:11 | |
You can feel when they respond. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
And I think it's a splendid training, being a schoolmaster. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
But you're talking as if... I mean, I can see, | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
what you explained to me, actually, | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
a splendid training for a performer, rather than a poet. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
I see that now, as I've always admired music hall above everything | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
because there, the music hall artiste has to establish himself | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
in the first few seconds, | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
otherwise he's a flop. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:40 | |
Yes. What was the first poem you ever wrote? | 0:13:40 | 0:13:43 | |
Can you remember? | 0:13:43 | 0:13:45 | |
Yes, it was appallingly bad. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:48 | |
It was a crib of Up The Airy Mountain, | 0:13:48 | 0:13:50 | |
a thing we all had to learn, | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
"Down the rushy glen. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:53 | |
"When the moors are pink with heather, | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
"When the sky is as blue as the sea, | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
"Marching all together," that seemed all right, | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
then the last line is a complete failure. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
"Come fairy folk so we." | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:14:08 | 0:14:14 | |
It's not that bad for a first effort. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
Well... | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
It's the last line that counts in every poem, I think. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
The last line. Yes, the last line. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
That's interesting. Like the last act in a variety, | 0:14:28 | 0:14:32 | |
or the last but one act, isn't it, in variety? | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
The last act has to be the one that they remember, | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
so must the last line be. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
Yes, it's like the punchline at the end of the story. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:43 | |
Yes. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:44 | |
You've also written an awful lot, and beautifully, | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
some of the most evocative of your poems are about your childhood. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
Why is this? What kind of childhood was it? | 0:14:50 | 0:14:55 | |
Comfortable. I had kind parents, who, on the whole, let me alone. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
But they sometimes left me with nannies who weren't all that jolly | 0:14:58 | 0:15:03 | |
and were rather alarming but I've always found I liked my own company | 0:15:03 | 0:15:08 | |
better than anyone else's, except the children next door in Highgate, | 0:15:08 | 0:15:14 | |
they were marvellous. You were a solitary child, were you? | 0:15:14 | 0:15:20 | |
On the whole, yes, I was an only child. Yes. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
And it was an upper-middle-class upbringing that you had. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | |
Yes, I suppose middle-class, more than upper-middle-class, yes. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
We're talking of course about 60, 70 years ago, aren't we? | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
Talking about an Edwardian upbringing. Yes, I'm 71, yes. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
Now, how strict was that upbringing? | 0:15:37 | 0:15:42 | |
Oh, getting to school in time, | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
running up West Hill, feeling sick with breakfast inside one, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
coming home... | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
..wondering what mood my father would be in, | 0:15:51 | 0:15:56 | |
or my mother, | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
and then... | 0:15:59 | 0:16:05 | |
Often having to eat things I didn't like at all, can you remember that? | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
Hating fish, I remember. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
And finding it very chewy. | 0:16:12 | 0:16:16 | |
But the theory was that you ate what was put in front of you. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
You weren't allowed to pick and choose. Oh, yeah, "Finish it up." | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
The most awful idea, isn't it? That's right, yes. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
I came across a line of yours which interested me, actually, | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
about your childhood, which I'd like to talk to you about. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
You're talking about, you used to go shooting. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:33 | |
Yes, with my father, yes. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
And the line is, "How many times | 0:16:36 | 0:16:37 | |
"must I explain the way a boy should hold a gun?" | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
That's your father talking to you. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:42 | |
"I recollect my father's pain at such a milksop of a son." | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
That's right. He wanted me to be open air, with nice, greased hair, | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
and a happy smile, and very keen on sport. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:51 | |
I was no good at any of it. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:57 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
Did you try hard? | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
To fulfil his ambition in those respects? | 0:17:02 | 0:17:05 | |
Not very. I think shooting, I couldn't bear. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
I didn't like killing the things, | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
and then I was always missing, and wounding the unfortunate bird. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
Yes. Or rabbit. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
Ooh, it was horrible. Yes. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
What about the sort of moralistic attitudes prevalent in those days? | 0:17:20 | 0:17:24 | |
Because in Edwardian times things were proper, weren't they? | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
Oh. yes. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
And I wasn't, I thought... I didn't know anything about sex. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
You didn't? No, I thought it was... | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
I didn't know what it was. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:38 | |
Really? I mean, what age are we talking about now? | 0:17:38 | 0:17:40 | |
Up until what age didn't you know about it? | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
I don't think I found out about it until I went to my public school. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
I used to be told vague things about plants, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
and didn't know what they were talking about. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
And, er, then I thought that it was something very wicked | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
when I found out about it. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:03 | |
I thought if there was a sin against the Holy Ghost then it was sex. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
Really? I really thought that. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
Yes. And what about, I mean, | 0:18:09 | 0:18:12 | |
did you have crushes, though, when you were...? | 0:18:12 | 0:18:13 | |
Oh, Lord, yes. Endless crushes. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
The purest love of one's life is before one's had any sex. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
And when one doesn't know what it is, this passion, outgoing passion, | 0:18:21 | 0:18:26 | |
I'd do anything for the person I loved. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
It didn't matter whether it was girl or boy. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:33 | |
My first people I noticed were girls. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
And it moved on, of course. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:40 | |
I don't believe that one's indifferent to either sex. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
Yes, yes, but you were more strongly towards the girls, were you? | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
I did, yes, on the whole. In the end, you got it sorted out. | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:18:49 | 0:18:55 | |
I'm delighted about that, Sir John. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
Did you, in fact, did you, when you had these crushes, | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
did it move you to write poetry? | 0:19:04 | 0:19:06 | |
Yes. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
Deeper feelings than I've ever felt, | 0:19:09 | 0:19:11 | |
never felt so sick with love as when I was in my teens. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
And indeed at the age of about seven, I think, | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
was the first love I felt. Really? The most beautiful girl, | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
with gold hair, called Peggy Purey-Cust. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:19:26 | 0:19:27 | |
Called Peggy...? Purey-Cust. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:31 | |
She lived in West Hill, Highgate, and she had blue eyes and gold hair, | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
and a slightly turned-up nose, and a sort of down over her cheeks, | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
so that ever since then, | 0:19:39 | 0:19:43 | |
people I've loved have had to look slightly like Peggy Purey-Cust. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:47 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
Amazing. And everyone you've met like that | 0:19:50 | 0:19:52 | |
have you fallen in love with and written a poem about? | 0:19:52 | 0:19:55 | |
Generally, yes. LAUGHTER | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
You've written, of course, there's a specific kind of Betjeman woman, | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
isn't there, you've celebrated it in your poems? | 0:19:59 | 0:20:03 | |
I mean, she's been on the whole, is she not, | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
a rather strapping-thighed lady? | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
I like athletic girls, yes. | 0:20:07 | 0:20:08 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
Yes. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
There's a lovely poem of yours, The Licorice Fields of Pontefract. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
Oh, yes, I remember who she was, too. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
Who was she? | 0:20:18 | 0:20:19 | |
LAUGHTER Well, she was a Berkshire girl | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
with red hair and brown eyes and freckles, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:24 | |
and a rather sulky expression. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:28 | |
Oh, she was beautiful. Really? Still is, yes. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:31 | |
And still is, I see. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:32 | |
Did they respond to your...? | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
Well, that was that talking with the eyes, | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
I never said anything in that instance - | 0:20:39 | 0:20:41 | |
I just hoped, but nothing happened. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
Nothing happened? | 0:20:43 | 0:20:44 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
Let's talk now about another aspect of your life, Sir John, | 0:20:48 | 0:20:51 | |
this thing you touched on before, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:53 | |
the thing about loving all things music hall and this sort of thing. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
When did that date from, your love of the theatre? | 0:20:56 | 0:21:00 | |
I think when we lived in Chelsea, | 0:21:00 | 0:21:04 | |
and I used to go to the Chelsea Palace, | 0:21:04 | 0:21:06 | |
and they had Lew Lake on then, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
and old-fashioned comedians, | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
and then there was a marvellous time when I was taken to the Palladium | 0:21:12 | 0:21:16 | |
and saw Marie Lloyd, and heard her sing, | 0:21:16 | 0:21:20 | |
"I'm one of the ruins that Cromwell knocked about a bit," and she was | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
very old then, but I could see, even then here was somebody, | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
a huge personality. | 0:21:26 | 0:21:30 | |
Yes. Who are your favourites at that time, | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
who were the ones you really went out of your way to go and see? | 0:21:33 | 0:21:37 | |
Still I'd go miles, if he were alive, to see Max Miller. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:41 | |
I think he was funnier than anyone I ever saw. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:45 | |
Though George Robey made me cry with laughter, and so did... | 0:21:45 | 0:21:51 | |
Why, there were so many. Wilkie Bard, do you remember? | 0:21:51 | 0:21:54 | |
"I want to sing in opera, I've got that kind of voice. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
"Yes, yes. Signor Caruso told me I ought to do so." | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
Awfully good words, I wonder who wrote them. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
I don't know, somebody we've never heard of, possibly. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:06 | |
Yes. Why, why this particular regard that you have for comedians? | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
For blue-nosed comedians, too, I mean, let's face it, Max Miller, | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
I mean, a cheeky chappie. Oh, he was wonderful. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
Was he? Oh, my goodness, the timing. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
That record, Max at the Met, | 0:22:19 | 0:22:23 | |
and incidentally it was the favourite record of TS Eliot, | 0:22:23 | 0:22:25 | |
the poet. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
He adored it, yes. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:29 | |
How do you know that? Because he played it to me. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
Really? | 0:22:31 | 0:22:32 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
The thought of TS Eliot playing Max Miller at the Met to you, I mean, | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
that's absolutely mind-blowing. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:39 | |
How extraordinary. What did Eliot like about him? | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
Oh, he liked the timing and the words. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:45 | |
And that's to do with the poet's sense of rhythm, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:47 | |
of meter and this sort of thing? | 0:22:47 | 0:22:49 | |
Yes, and his being in touch with the audience was a lovely thing. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:52 | |
You can tell when people are listening, | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
you can tell when they're bored, by a sort of feel. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
Yes. And Max had it superbly. | 0:22:57 | 0:22:58 | |
The Met at Edgware Road, do you remember it? | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
It was wonderful. No. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:03 | |
Oh, there was a swish of the bar doors at the back | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
when it was a boring bit. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:07 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:23:07 | 0:23:13 | |
Yes. That kind of life, | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
that kind of theatre's gone now, sadly, hasn't it? | 0:23:16 | 0:23:18 | |
Oh, it's so sad, it was wonderful. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
Isn't it still going on in the north? | 0:23:20 | 0:23:22 | |
I believe it is. It is, but in clubs, and not in theatres. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:25 | |
I've never been to a club. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:26 | |
Oh, you must go along, you'd enjoy it, actually. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:28 | |
It's not the same kind of thing at all. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
I mean, you don't have the promenade at the back, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:33 | |
you don't have the bar at the back, | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
and the drinks are there in the audience, you know? Yes. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
And the likelihood is that the audience gets drunk | 0:23:38 | 0:23:40 | |
more quickly that way, but it still happens there, | 0:23:40 | 0:23:42 | |
and you still get very, very big audiences there. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:44 | |
Do people stop talking to one another, if the act is good? | 0:23:44 | 0:23:48 | |
It depends how good the act is. I mean, they can get nasty, | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
I mean, as it was, I think, I imagine, | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
in the days of music hall when you were there. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
In the old music hall, I do remember people getting the bird, | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
but only twice, I think. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
And then it was very painful, awful, agonising. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:07 | |
Yes, yes. Sir John, can we now talk a little bit more just about | 0:24:07 | 0:24:11 | |
your poetry? Because you're going to read another poem for us | 0:24:11 | 0:24:14 | |
that you've set to music, or Jim Parker set to music, | 0:24:14 | 0:24:16 | |
and this is called A Russell Flint. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:22 | |
Now, what's the story behind A Russell Flint? | 0:24:22 | 0:24:28 | |
I wanted a secretary, | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
and I put in an advertisement when I was with a paper called | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
Time and Tide, edited by Lady Rhondda. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:36 | |
I once worked for that. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:38 | |
Did you? Yes, I work for that, but a long time after Lady Rhondda, | 0:24:38 | 0:24:41 | |
when it was run by a very nice man called John Thompson, | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
was the editor of the time. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:45 | |
Oh, well, you know how those things are very intimate. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:47 | |
I used to write under assumed names, | 0:24:47 | 0:24:49 | |
because I was working for another paper at the time. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
I had two names, it's true, I was blacklegging. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:54 | |
When I wrote about the North, I was called Jack Braithwaite... | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
THEY LAUGH | 0:24:57 | 0:25:02 | |
..and when I sent stuff from abroad, I was called Warren Brady, Jr. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:25:05 | 0:25:07 | |
Jack or Warren, how marvellous! | 0:25:07 | 0:25:08 | |
I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, no, I'd forgotten about it! | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
You were talking about, you were working on Time and Tide, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
and you wanted a secretary. I wanted a secretary, | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
and somebody came and replied to an advertisement, | 0:25:19 | 0:25:23 | |
and she was so staggeringly beautiful, like Peggy Purey-Cust... | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
..that I was rather worried, for there I was, a married man, | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
and happily married, and I thought, | 0:25:33 | 0:25:35 | |
"I'd better not employ her," | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
the temptations to touch and kiss were too great. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:45 | |
And I went to Lady Rhondda, and said, | 0:25:45 | 0:25:47 | |
"What do you think I ought to do?" And she said, | 0:25:47 | 0:25:49 | |
"Oh, always have the good-looking ones, they're much nicer | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
"than anybody else, because people have been nice to them." | 0:25:52 | 0:25:54 | |
MICHAEL LAUGHS | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
That's a lovely thing to say, isn't it? | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
And it was very good advice, it was a great success. | 0:25:58 | 0:26:01 | |
It was a great success, was it? | 0:26:01 | 0:26:02 | |
Yes, and now she's married and has children. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:04 | |
She lives in Stratford-on-Avon. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
We have in fact a photograph of her, don't we? | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
Have we got...? There she is, look, she is beautiful too, isn't she? | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
Freckly Jill, yes. | 0:26:12 | 0:26:13 | |
Freckly Jill! | 0:26:13 | 0:26:17 | |
In fact, then, this poem, then, that we're going to hear now, | 0:26:17 | 0:26:21 | |
is about that lady, it's called A Russell Flint, as I said, | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
and it's Sir John Betjeman reading it, | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
and the music put to the words is by Jim Parker. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:31 | |
THEY PLAY REFLECTIVE MUSIC | 0:26:34 | 0:26:44 | |
I could not speak for amazement at your beauty, | 0:27:01 | 0:27:06 | |
As you came down the Garrick stair, | 0:27:06 | 0:27:11 | |
Grey-green eyes like the turbulent Atlantic, | 0:27:11 | 0:27:13 | |
And floppy schoolgirl hair. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
I could see you in a Sussex teashop, | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
Dressed in peasant weave and brogues, | 0:27:21 | 0:27:25 | |
Turning over as firelight shone on brassware, | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
Last year's tea-stained Vogues. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:35 | |
I could see you as a large-eyed student, | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
Frowning as you tried to learn, | 0:27:39 | 0:27:43 | |
Or head flung back, the confident girl prefect, | 0:27:43 | 0:27:48 | |
Thrillingly kind and stern. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:52 | |
I could not speak for amazement at your beauty, | 0:27:52 | 0:27:57 | |
Yet when you spoke to me, | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
You were calm and gentle as a rock pool, | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
Waiting, warm, for the sea. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
Wave on wave, I plunged in them to meet you, | 0:28:08 | 0:28:12 | |
In wave on wave I drown, | 0:28:12 | 0:28:17 | |
Calm rock pool, on the shore of my security, | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
Hold me when the tide goes down. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:29 | |
STEEL GUITAR PLAYS | 0:28:30 | 0:28:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:29:41 | 0:29:51 | |
And that's from a second LP you made, called Late Flowering Love. | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
You're getting quite a recording star, you know, Sir John, | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
you really are. Oh, thank you very much. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:08 | |
You'll be on Top Of The Pops next! LAUGHTER | 0:30:08 | 0:30:10 | |
Sir John Betjeman, for the moment, thank you very much indeed. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
Sir John Betjeman. | 0:30:13 | 0:30:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:30:14 | 0:30:24 | |
Well, my next guest is one of the legendary figures | 0:30:27 | 0:30:29 | |
of British show business. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:31 | |
She was born above a fish and chip shop in Rochdale, | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
went on to become the nation's sweetheart on stage, on record, | 0:30:33 | 0:30:36 | |
in films and radio. | 0:30:36 | 0:30:38 | |
Indeed, Parliament once adjourned because she was about to broadcast. | 0:30:38 | 0:30:41 | |
She was once described as | 0:30:41 | 0:30:43 | |
the greatest entertainer this country has ever produced, | 0:30:43 | 0:30:45 | |
and if that assessment causes a few raised eyebrows, | 0:30:45 | 0:30:47 | |
all I can say is that her doubters | 0:30:47 | 0:30:49 | |
never saw and heard Grace Stansfield of Rochdale, | 0:30:49 | 0:30:52 | |
who became to millions simply "Our Gracie", in movies like this. | 0:30:52 | 0:30:57 | |
# Sing as we go and let the world go by | 0:30:57 | 0:31:01 | |
# Singing a song, we march along the highway | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
# Say goodbye to sorrow | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
# There's always tomorrow to think of today | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
# Sing as we go although the skies are grey | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
# Beggar or king, you've got to sing a gay tune | 0:31:15 | 0:31:19 | |
# A song and a smile make it right worthwhile | 0:31:19 | 0:31:21 | |
# So sing | 0:31:21 | 0:31:25 | |
# As we go along. # | 0:31:25 | 0:31:35 | |
Hey, who are you shoving?! | 0:31:35 | 0:31:38 | |
Ladies and gentlemen, Gracie Fields. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
MUSIC: Sally | 0:31:43 | 0:31:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:55 | 0:32:05 | |
Thank you. | 0:32:16 | 0:32:17 | |
I know I'm not Peggy. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:19 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
You're not the type, are you, love? | 0:32:22 | 0:32:23 | |
You don't know! No, that's for sure, yeah. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
I tell you what, you're a remarkable lady, you really are. | 0:32:26 | 0:32:29 | |
You're 79 now, aren't you? Pushing 80. | 0:32:29 | 0:32:32 | |
Pushing 80, yeah, amazing. Just about three months off, isn't it? | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
It's ridiculous. It's too long, you shouldn't live that long, I think... | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:32:37 | 0:32:41 | |
Just watching that there, I was talking to Sir John, actually, | 0:32:41 | 0:32:43 | |
about that clip we saw there, | 0:32:43 | 0:32:45 | |
it was the most extraordinary voice you had, | 0:32:45 | 0:32:47 | |
wasn't it? It was a really remarkable instrument. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:51 | |
I know, excuse me taking this off, I put it on for swank, so I'll just... | 0:32:51 | 0:32:55 | |
You're stopping, are you? Yeah, I decided to stop. | 0:32:55 | 0:32:57 | |
Very good. Thank you very much. | 0:32:57 | 0:32:59 | |
Yeah. Well, I did have, I realise, I was playing a few of my old records. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
You know, I was making them so many years and years ago, | 0:33:03 | 0:33:09 | |
and working so hard, in the theatre all the time, | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
doing charity shows in the daytime, I never listened to a record. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:14 | |
Only when I just passed it, | 0:33:14 | 0:33:16 | |
when I made it, they'd say, "Is that all right?" | 0:33:16 | 0:33:19 | |
"That's all right, I've done it," and I'd out the place. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
And I wouldn't listen to 'em. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:23 | |
And recently I was listening to some with my husband, | 0:33:23 | 0:33:26 | |
who was re-recording them and trying to bring out the sound of today, | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
and I says, "You know, I was a bit extraordinary, | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
"I've never heard a voice like that!" | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
I was really, I couldn't believe it, that I'd made those noises, | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
it was just incredible. It was an operatic voice, wasn't it? | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
I mean, you could have been an opera singer. It was, absolutely, yes. | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
You never wanted to be an opera singer? Well, my mother | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
wanted me to be an opera singer but we couldn't afford it. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
No. It cost money to have lessons and we needed the brass. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
Yes. So I did whatever we could do, | 0:33:56 | 0:33:59 | |
I was doing high kicks and acrobats and what have you. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:03 | |
But was it, really, I mean we're talking about 79 years ago now, | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
in Rochdale, which in those days was... | 0:34:06 | 0:34:08 | |
A mill town. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
A mill town. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
I mean, was it really a sort of clogs and shawl existence? | 0:34:14 | 0:34:16 | |
Oh, yes, I've got the marks today on me ankles | 0:34:16 | 0:34:19 | |
where me clogs used to just catch me ankles. | 0:34:19 | 0:34:21 | |
You haven't? Yes, I have. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
Where? I'll show you, there's lines round there... | 0:34:23 | 0:34:27 | |
You just wanted to look at me legs! | 0:34:27 | 0:34:29 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
Sir John wanted to have a look, too. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
Yeah! Yeah, I wore clogs and shawls. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
It used to be awful in the winter time when it was snowing, | 0:34:38 | 0:34:41 | |
because my mother sent me to the factory. | 0:34:41 | 0:34:43 | |
I was on the stage, the first time, when I was seven years old, | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
singing a singing competition. | 0:34:47 | 0:34:49 | |
My mother always tried to find a house, | 0:34:49 | 0:34:52 | |
if we didn't have one big enough, | 0:34:52 | 0:34:55 | |
or we were rich enough to have one big enough to rent a couple of rooms | 0:34:55 | 0:34:59 | |
to the theatricals that came to the old circus in Rochdale of that time. | 0:34:59 | 0:35:03 | |
And she'd find another house that would face a house | 0:35:03 | 0:35:07 | |
where they did take in professionals, | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
and I used to sing up a little alleyway | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
just by the side of our house. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
So this lady heard me singing, one of them, a woman called Lily Turner, | 0:35:16 | 0:35:20 | |
and she said, "I want to put Grace into this singing competition." | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
So she taught me to sing the song. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:26 | |
I remember it, half of it, today, but anyway. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:31 | |
What was the song? I was very... | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
It was called What Makes Me Love You As I Do. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
What Makes Me Love You As I Do. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
But I couldn't say "what". | 0:35:40 | 0:35:44 | |
I would sing... | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
# Wot makes me love you as I do | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
# Wot makes me think you're so divine, wot makes me long to...? # | 0:35:49 | 0:35:55 | |
She said, "You must say, 'What, what!'" | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
# Wot makes me love you as I do...? # | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
And this went on till she was going crazy. | 0:36:02 | 0:36:06 | |
So she said, "You must sing 'q-what.'" | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
So I sang, # Q-what makes me love you as I do, | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
# Q-what makes me think you're so divine, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
# Q-what makes me long to...? # | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
And my q-whats won the competition, dear. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:22 | |
Then you went to work with Lily Turner, this same woman, didn't you? | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
Yeah, I went to sing to her a song from the gallery. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
She used to wear sort of short velvet short pants, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:30 | |
with sort of a manly coat, | 0:36:30 | 0:36:33 | |
it was a funny sort of dress, now you think of it back. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:37 | |
She used to sing this song with such feeling, and I was singing it, | 0:36:37 | 0:36:41 | |
again in a chorus, from the gallery. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:45 | |
While I was singing it there was an old lady one time got very annoyed. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:50 | |
She wanted to listen to the lady down on the stage and this child was | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
singing this chorus, was annoying her, | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
so she started to bash me with her umbrella. | 0:36:57 | 0:37:00 | |
Well, I started crying | 0:37:00 | 0:37:04 | |
and all that, so she wondered what was happening. | 0:37:04 | 0:37:06 | |
So after then she put me on the stage to sing it. | 0:37:06 | 0:37:09 | |
Yes. And then slowly I started doing a little single act around Rochdale, | 0:37:09 | 0:37:12 | |
Castleton, Norden, any type of party that was going on, I was going. | 0:37:12 | 0:37:18 | |
What kind of, what kind of venues were you playing, Gracie, | 0:37:18 | 0:37:21 | |
in those days? Were they clubs or musicals, or what? | 0:37:21 | 0:37:25 | |
No, no, no, they were sort of little charity shows | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
that people were putting on all around Rochdale. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
I called myself the tuppenny pie queen because they used to pay me | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
in tuppenny pies, meat pies they used to sell for tuppence. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:38 | |
They're about ten and tuppence now, I think! | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:37:40 | 0:37:43 | |
I ate so many tuppenny pies and took 'em home in me umbrella, | 0:37:43 | 0:37:46 | |
where I could pinch a few, | 0:37:46 | 0:37:47 | |
and took 'em home to the family so we all had tuppenny pies to death | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
when there was another concert on somewhere. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:53 | |
What about school at this time? | 0:37:53 | 0:37:54 | |
My mother didn't think school was necessary. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
She's probably right, what a very wise woman. | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
She kept me home and she said, "Oh, you'll find out when you grow up, | 0:38:00 | 0:38:04 | |
"it'll all happen to you". | 0:38:04 | 0:38:06 | |
But she had to go to school because they paid two pennies a week, | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
which must have been very expensive when she was a child. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
But she didn't think it was necessary as far as I was concerned. | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
I used to stay home while Mother used to go out and take laundry in | 0:38:17 | 0:38:21 | |
or go and do a day's work at somebody's fine house. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
After I'd finished school, sometimes, I'd go from my school, | 0:38:24 | 0:38:28 | |
find out where she'd gone and eat all the leftover rice puddings | 0:38:28 | 0:38:31 | |
and things in the fine house and that kind of thing. | 0:38:31 | 0:38:34 | |
But of course, you did go to school, didn't you? | 0:38:34 | 0:38:37 | |
A little, yes. And you didn't much like it, did you? | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
A bit. I loved school when I did go. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:42 | |
When I joined a juvenile troupe, where there was six... | 0:38:42 | 0:38:47 | |
The first juvenile troupe was the Nine Dainty Dots. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:51 | |
They didn't bother with me going to school - or if I did go to school, | 0:38:51 | 0:38:55 | |
each school in another town | 0:38:55 | 0:38:56 | |
couldn't be bothered to teach this one child by herself, | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
so they'd sit me on the side, on a seat, and give me a book, | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
which I couldn't read - | 0:39:02 | 0:39:05 | |
but I had to sit there until it was time to break loose | 0:39:05 | 0:39:09 | |
and then get running back to my digs, | 0:39:09 | 0:39:11 | |
to go and join the kids at night. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:16 | |
I mean, the more you tell me about that, | 0:39:16 | 0:39:19 | |
the more extraordinary it is that you became what you became. | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
I mean, as I said, the biggest star in this country, | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
I mean a superstar, the first, well, you were. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
Well, you never think of yourself as anything else but what you are. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
I never think of myself as a star. | 0:39:31 | 0:39:33 | |
I know, I suppose - I know I have been around, | 0:39:33 | 0:39:35 | |
but I never think of myself... | 0:39:35 | 0:39:37 | |
I'm just the same as I've always been. | 0:39:37 | 0:39:39 | |
But I wondered how it happened. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
How that girl from Rochdale eventually went to London, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
took London by storm, and then took the nation by storm? | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
Because I was interested in other people on the stage, don't forget. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:49 | |
I saw the different stars we worked with, | 0:39:49 | 0:39:53 | |
and my mother used to write to me. | 0:39:53 | 0:39:55 | |
She knew all about them, because she was stage-mad. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:57 | |
She used to take in the performer and the stage, the papers, | 0:39:57 | 0:40:00 | |
the theatre papers, and she'd write to me, | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
"Next week you're on the stage with Gertie Gitana, | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
"so don't forget to learn all her songs!" | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
And I had to learn them, | 0:40:08 | 0:40:10 | |
because I daren't go home if I didn't know them. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
So I had to get very friendly with the stage manager, | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
if he would be kind enough and let me stand on the side of the stage, | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
because they only allowed the children to stand on the stage, | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
a few, one at a time and no more. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
So then I got friendly with the man who pulled up the curtains, | 0:40:26 | 0:40:31 | |
up on the top of the lofts, and I used to go up there, | 0:40:31 | 0:40:34 | |
"Please can I come up here? | 0:40:34 | 0:40:38 | |
"I have got to learn Gertie Gitana's songs". | 0:40:38 | 0:40:40 | |
So I'm up in the top, | 0:40:40 | 0:40:42 | |
watching them pull the thing up and listen to her singing... | 0:40:42 | 0:40:45 | |
# My sweet Iola | 0:40:45 | 0:40:49 | |
# Iola, list to me... | 0:40:49 | 0:40:52 | |
# Da, da, da... # I forgot the words! | 0:40:52 | 0:40:55 | |
You can expect it at 80 - who cares?! | 0:40:55 | 0:40:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:40:57 | 0:41:06 | |
Nellie Dean... You were a fan of Gertie Gitana? | 0:41:06 | 0:41:08 | |
Oh, yes. Yes. I remember her singing Nellie Dean. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:10 | |
Nellie Dean. | 0:41:10 | 0:41:12 | |
# By the old stream | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
# By the stream, Nellie Dean... # | 0:41:14 | 0:41:16 | |
Yes, she used to sing all those. | 0:41:16 | 0:41:18 | |
You know, I had a very sad experience, for me, | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
because I thought that she was the biggest star in the world | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
when I was a child. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
I used to listen to her, | 0:41:26 | 0:41:28 | |
even from the man who gets in the orchestra pit underneath the stage, | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
I used to ask him, "Please can I keep your door open | 0:41:31 | 0:41:35 | |
so I can learn her songs?" | 0:41:35 | 0:41:36 | |
And... When I... | 0:41:36 | 0:41:40 | |
went to a charity concert in Chelsea, | 0:41:40 | 0:41:45 | |
it must have been about 25 years or 30 years ago, | 0:41:45 | 0:41:48 | |
and I hear someone singing one of my songs, | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
and it was Gertie Gitana mimicking me. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:56 | |
I cried. I said, "Oh, that's not right, she's such a big star." | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
Because to me she was still that big star | 0:41:59 | 0:42:01 | |
and she shouldn't be mimicking me - | 0:42:01 | 0:42:03 | |
I'm just Gracie Fields from Rochdale, | 0:42:03 | 0:42:05 | |
but I couldn't feel... | 0:42:05 | 0:42:06 | |
Amazing. It just upset me, really. | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
You started off taking her off | 0:42:09 | 0:42:10 | |
and she ended up taking you off. That's right, | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
and she ended up sort of taking me off, it's very funny. Yeah. | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
What did you feel like when you came down, | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
this raw girl from Rochdale into London? | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
I mean, it must've been a bit of a problem. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:21 | |
Did you feel socially uneasy, in the world of London...? No - | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
I don't think I ever bothered about anything at all. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:29 | |
I'd been when I was a child in the juvenile troupes, | 0:42:29 | 0:42:33 | |
and every time if I could go to a matinee and see a big star... | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
Mother used to write and tell me to go and see Shirley Kellogg | 0:42:38 | 0:42:41 | |
and different actresses and singers in London when I could get a chance, | 0:42:41 | 0:42:44 | |
and I was always looking for somebody important. | 0:42:44 | 0:42:50 | |
So she was really ramming all this stuff down my neck, | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
and...give her an idea, so I was actually mimicking everybody. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
Yes. You also, at this time, 1928 or so, | 0:42:56 | 0:42:59 | |
I mean, you cracked the London stage as well, didn't you? | 0:42:59 | 0:43:01 | |
There must have been... | 0:43:01 | 0:43:02 | |
you met Sir Gerald du Maurier, for instance, who employed you... | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
Well... That must have been a certain amount of conflict there, | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
between this sort of high-bred, rather posh fellow and you? | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
Well, we were different people. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
We were ordinary people in heart, the same, you know what I mean? | 0:43:14 | 0:43:17 | |
It didn't bother me. | 0:43:17 | 0:43:21 | |
I said, "Oh, well, you..." When I went to the St James Theatre, | 0:43:21 | 0:43:24 | |
the first thing I did was take my gramophone. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:26 | |
I remember when I first bought my first gramophone, | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
I was in Nottingham and I got to know the girl in a gramophone shop. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
So I said, "Would you give me some very good records? | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
"I want classical ones." | 0:43:35 | 0:43:39 | |
So she gave me a bunch of Caruso, Galli-Curci and different people. | 0:43:39 | 0:43:43 | |
Well, I took those records home and I was in a dream, | 0:43:43 | 0:43:47 | |
listening to this... wonderful voices. | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
And I used to mimic them, I used to sing | 0:43:49 | 0:43:52 | |
all these things that Caruso used to sing. | 0:43:52 | 0:44:00 | |
STRIDENT OPERA SINGING | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
You know, I'd get the voice out. | 0:44:03 | 0:44:05 | |
It reminds me, just before I came here, | 0:44:05 | 0:44:07 | |
on Sunday, when we started off from Naples... | 0:44:07 | 0:44:11 | |
..we had a taxi man. | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
So he was very puzzled at Boris sitting next to him | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
and a friend of mine who plays the piano for me - | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
Teddy Holmes, you must know him... | 0:44:19 | 0:44:21 | |
Yes. ..he was sitting next to me, and the driver was talking to Boris, | 0:44:21 | 0:44:24 | |
we come to... "These people are speaking English behind here | 0:44:24 | 0:44:27 | |
"and you're speaking the dialect of Naples." | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
So he must have said something, "Oh, well, she sings," or something. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:35 | |
So I started... | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
# Vide'o mare quant'e bello | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
# Spira tantu sentimento | 0:44:40 | 0:44:42 | |
# Comme tu a chi tiene mente... # | 0:44:42 | 0:44:48 | |
and this man started going mad, "Ah, wonderful!" | 0:44:48 | 0:44:52 | |
He forgot to drive and he started to conduct... | 0:44:52 | 0:44:54 | |
LAUGHTER ..all the way to the station. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:57 | |
Teddy and Boris were scared to death! | 0:44:57 | 0:45:01 | |
But I finished it outright to the end when I got to the station. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
Gracie, of course, lives abroad now all the time. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:06 | |
Could you do that, could you live abroad, anywhere else? I don't know, | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
I only like living in England. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
But why's that? I can't understand the language anywhere else. | 0:45:11 | 0:45:13 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:45:13 | 0:45:15 | |
I don't, it's all right, I just get through, you know? | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
It's Lancashire Italian. | 0:45:18 | 0:45:21 | |
But I get all I want. If I want to know what's going on in the kitchen, | 0:45:21 | 0:45:25 | |
I always say I'm either starring or charring, I can't keep still, | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
so I do a bit of cooking one day, I do a bit of fiddling around, | 0:45:28 | 0:45:31 | |
cleaning and playing in the garden. | 0:45:31 | 0:45:34 | |
I find so many things to do. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
But you'd just feel totally an alien then, would you? | 0:45:37 | 0:45:41 | |
Yes, I very much like Italian people, | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
they're very kind and very good with children | 0:45:43 | 0:45:46 | |
and very cheerful, but, oh, the noise they make! | 0:45:46 | 0:45:49 | |
You prefer more quiet? | 0:45:49 | 0:45:52 | |
I like things quiet, yes. | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
What about - you've lived all your life, of course, down here, | 0:45:55 | 0:45:58 | |
haven't you, in the south? Yes. | 0:45:58 | 0:46:00 | |
I say down here like it was a southern state of America | 0:46:00 | 0:46:02 | |
or something, but there is, we all know, | 0:46:02 | 0:46:04 | |
this north and south divide in Britain, still. | 0:46:04 | 0:46:06 | |
In fact, you've not discovered the north until recently, have you? | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
Quite lately, yes. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:10 | |
And you like it, don't you? Very much indeed - and the Isle of Man. | 0:46:10 | 0:46:14 | |
The Isle of Man you like. Very fond of that. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:16 | |
I've never been there. Oh, it's nice. | 0:46:16 | 0:46:18 | |
You don't say! The one place I've never been, to the Isle of Man. | 0:46:18 | 0:46:21 | |
Oh, it's beautiful. Yes. | 0:46:21 | 0:46:22 | |
What do you like, specifically, about the North? | 0:46:22 | 0:46:24 | |
People speak directly - and Coronation Street. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:26 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:46:26 | 0:46:30 | |
What, do you like...?! You like Coronation Street? | 0:46:30 | 0:46:32 | |
Yes, it's my favourite programme. | 0:46:32 | 0:46:33 | |
LAUGHTER Is it really?! | 0:46:33 | 0:46:36 | |
I enjoyed it, I saw it this week | 0:46:36 | 0:46:38 | |
and I haven't seen it for such a long time, | 0:46:38 | 0:46:40 | |
and it takes me right back to Rochdale. | 0:46:40 | 0:46:42 | |
How marvellous. It's a lovely feeling | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
of everybody knows everybody, | 0:46:44 | 0:46:46 | |
we all interfere with everybody's business, | 0:46:46 | 0:46:48 | |
we all want to know everything - | 0:46:48 | 0:46:51 | |
but I find that Capri people are the same in Capri. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:54 | |
All the Capresi, they all know everything, | 0:46:54 | 0:46:56 | |
they all want to know the tittle-tattle about everybody, | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
but they're one family, | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
and I feel that the Lancashire people are like that, | 0:47:00 | 0:47:03 | |
Yorkshire people up north are very much together. | 0:47:03 | 0:47:05 | |
Much closer than they are down south. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:15 | |
That's typical. What do you like - | 0:47:21 | 0:47:22 | |
who's your favourite character in Coronation Street? | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
I'm hard put to it to say. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
I'm very fond of Mrs Walker, and... | 0:47:26 | 0:47:27 | |
Oh, I think Doris Speed, the actress who plays her, is fantastic. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
Yes. I think really incredible. | 0:47:30 | 0:47:32 | |
..and Stan Ogden and his wife, Hilda... | 0:47:32 | 0:47:33 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:47:33 | 0:47:34 | |
You like the curlers, do you? ..I'm very fond of - | 0:47:34 | 0:47:37 | |
and I like Ken Barlow, as a cultivated contrast, | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
and I'm very fond of that very... | 0:47:39 | 0:47:41 | |
..pushy one that is going to do very well in business, Mike Baldwin. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
Oh, yes. Who lately appeared. | 0:47:44 | 0:47:45 | |
What about Albert Tatlock? | 0:47:45 | 0:47:46 | |
He's wonderful. He is wonderful, isn't he? | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
He must have been on the holes. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:49 | |
I don't know if he was, actually. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:51 | |
You know he lives in the Midland Hotel in Manchester? | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
I heard that, very nice. | 0:47:54 | 0:47:56 | |
Now, you know that Ena Sharples speaks posh, don't you? | 0:47:56 | 0:47:59 | |
Does she? Mm. Well, not posh, but, I mean, it's sort of... | 0:47:59 | 0:48:01 | |
POSH ACCENT: But she's refined. Yes! Really? | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
Oh, well, we can all be refined, you know, just the same. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
That's right, yes. | 0:48:09 | 0:48:10 | |
You were talking earlier, Gracie, about filming. | 0:48:10 | 0:48:13 | |
I mean, you had a spectacular film career. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:15 | |
You were, in the '30s here, you were the biggest film star in Britain. | 0:48:15 | 0:48:19 | |
You also went to Hollywood, too, didn't you? | 0:48:19 | 0:48:21 | |
Yeah. But didn't like it. | 0:48:21 | 0:48:22 | |
Well, I didn't like making films at all in the beginning. You didn't. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:27 | |
I couldn't stand it, cos you're waiting around | 0:48:27 | 0:48:30 | |
and doing nothing and when you do say something | 0:48:30 | 0:48:33 | |
you've said, "Good morning, George" all day and it drives you crazy - | 0:48:33 | 0:48:36 | |
and then when they lock the gate when they've got you in, | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
I always felt I was imprisoned and I can't get out of this place. | 0:48:39 | 0:48:42 | |
Yes. But I could get out of a theatre, I never thought of that - | 0:48:42 | 0:48:46 | |
I mean, I got through the stage door. | 0:48:46 | 0:48:48 | |
Yes. That's always open, I always felt, morning, noon and night... | 0:48:48 | 0:48:50 | |
Yes. ..but the film studio, I'd see them close that gate, | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
"They've got me, I'm stuck now for the day." | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
Yes...but you must have met - when you were in Hollywood, | 0:48:57 | 0:48:59 | |
you must have met some extraordinary people, | 0:48:59 | 0:49:01 | |
people who you admired on the screen? Oh, yes, quite a lot. | 0:49:01 | 0:49:04 | |
I did one or two good films. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:06 | |
You did, I remember them. But not much. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:08 | |
Do you? Yes, I was a film critic in those days. | 0:49:08 | 0:49:11 | |
Oh, you were. Did you review Gracie? | 0:49:11 | 0:49:12 | |
I think probably, yes. | 0:49:12 | 0:49:14 | |
Yes? I remember that one we saw... | 0:49:14 | 0:49:16 | |
what was the song in it? Well... | 0:49:16 | 0:49:18 | |
I remember... Sing As We Go. Sing As We Go. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:21 | |
Sing As We Go, that's it. That was done in England. Yes. | 0:49:21 | 0:49:24 | |
But most of those stories | 0:49:24 | 0:49:26 | |
were kind of written around me for some reason - | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
they weren't real stories to start off with. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
The first film I ever made was Sally. Oh, yes. | 0:49:32 | 0:49:34 | |
Now, that was written properly as a play, and it was a very good play. | 0:49:34 | 0:49:38 | |
Well, you had something to play with. | 0:49:38 | 0:49:41 | |
The others were all stitched up around five or six songs. | 0:49:41 | 0:49:45 | |
"Get six songs ready, Grace, | 0:49:45 | 0:49:46 | |
"because you're going to make a film," | 0:49:46 | 0:49:48 | |
and then it was just stitched up. | 0:49:48 | 0:49:51 | |
Now, when I went to Hollywood and I did the one by Arnold Bennett, | 0:49:51 | 0:49:55 | |
Buried Alive it was called, the book, it was called... | 0:49:55 | 0:49:59 | |
What was it called? | 0:49:59 | 0:50:00 | |
Holy Matrimony. Holy Matrimony, that's right, yes. | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
It was a joy to do that without a song in it | 0:50:03 | 0:50:06 | |
because you'd real words to say that the author enjoyed writing... | 0:50:06 | 0:50:09 | |
Mm. ..and then you enjoyed saying them, | 0:50:09 | 0:50:11 | |
and it was something to do - | 0:50:11 | 0:50:13 | |
but when they stitched around you, you know, | 0:50:13 | 0:50:16 | |
they don't come up quite the same, the stories were not good. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:21 | |
Of course, in fact JB Priestley wrote a couple of films for you, | 0:50:21 | 0:50:24 | |
didn't he? Yeah - well, he did the Sing As We Go. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:27 | |
That's right, yes. You met him, did you? | 0:50:27 | 0:50:29 | |
Yes, oh, yes. Well, you obviously did. | 0:50:29 | 0:50:30 | |
He came, yes, he came with Basil Dean. | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
They talked about the story and doing these things. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
I said, "Well, I think it's going to be a kind of a popular thing | 0:50:34 | 0:50:38 | |
"and it might make money and be all that." | 0:50:38 | 0:50:44 | |
He says, "Well, we don't like to think about money." | 0:50:44 | 0:50:46 | |
I said, "Well, what are we working for?" | 0:50:46 | 0:50:48 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:50:48 | 0:50:51 | |
That was Priestley said that? Yeah. "We don't like to think of money"? | 0:50:51 | 0:50:54 | |
Yes. You've never been afflicted by that, have you, Sir John, | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
the thought that art should not make money? No. No. | 0:50:57 | 0:50:59 | |
No, I think not, no. | 0:50:59 | 0:51:01 | |
It always amazed me if it ever has. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:03 | |
Yes, yes. | 0:51:03 | 0:51:04 | |
But it's a nice end product if it does? | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
I think it's an extra, kindly supplied by the management. | 0:51:07 | 0:51:11 | |
Can I ask you, finally, the two of you | 0:51:11 | 0:51:13 | |
who've lived long and many years in this country, | 0:51:13 | 0:51:23 | |
what's disturbed you coming from what you did, | 0:51:23 | 0:51:25 | |
from an Edwardian background into the present time? | 0:51:25 | 0:51:29 | |
Motorcars, I think, have made things much worse. | 0:51:29 | 0:51:31 | |
That's another thing, yes. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:32 | |
I think people go mad when they get inside motorcars | 0:51:32 | 0:51:34 | |
and become quite like fiends. | 0:51:34 | 0:51:35 | |
I know I do myself. | 0:51:35 | 0:51:37 | |
LAUGHTER People forget to walk. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:38 | |
Yes. I got rid of my car when I was 70. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:40 | |
I said, "I'm going to walk!" | 0:51:40 | 0:51:42 | |
How marvellous! | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
Up those hills in Rochdale, very steep! | 0:51:44 | 0:51:50 | |
Up those hills, in Capri, too! | 0:51:50 | 0:51:51 | |
Of course, you know Rochdale, don't you? | 0:51:51 | 0:51:53 | |
Yes. Lovely place. | 0:51:53 | 0:51:54 | |
Rochdale, we had a great-grandfather who lived until he was 103 | 0:51:54 | 0:51:57 | |
and when he was 100 they gave him some special prizes | 0:51:57 | 0:52:03 | |
and they said... So he had free tram rides, | 0:52:03 | 0:52:05 | |
so he killed himself, my father said, | 0:52:05 | 0:52:07 | |
by having free tram rides, | 0:52:07 | 0:52:09 | |
he never walked after he got that prize! | 0:52:09 | 0:52:11 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:52:11 | 0:52:21 | |
"He died of goodwill" should be the epitaph for that gentleman! | 0:52:22 | 0:52:25 | |
Now, we're going to, | 0:52:25 | 0:52:26 | |
you're not going to go away without singing for us, | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
and you're going to sing, I hope... do you remember Grace's comic ones? | 0:52:29 | 0:52:33 | |
Yes. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:34 | |
What about the Aspidistra one? | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
The Biggest Aspidistra. Oh, no! | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
You must be sick of singing that one! | 0:52:39 | 0:52:40 | |
I'm sick of singing it, sick of hearing it! | 0:52:40 | 0:52:43 | |
Are you? Yeah! | 0:52:43 | 0:52:45 | |
But if you want it... What was the story about it, Gracie, | 0:52:45 | 0:52:47 | |
the sort of background to it? | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
Well, just a man who brought all these songs to me for many years, | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
he brought one along - | 0:52:52 | 0:52:54 | |
but when I went to America | 0:52:54 | 0:52:56 | |
I remember we were doing a very big... | 0:52:56 | 0:53:01 | |
a three-hour marathon radio show for charity, | 0:53:01 | 0:53:06 | |
so I was on this show doing three songs, which I did, and... | 0:53:06 | 0:53:09 | |
Bob Hope was the MC. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:15 | |
He said, "We're ten minutes short, have you got another song?" | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
I said, "Yes, but they wouldn't understand it." | 0:53:18 | 0:53:20 | |
He says, "What is it?" I says, "The Aspidistra." | 0:53:20 | 0:53:22 | |
He says, "What's that?" | 0:53:22 | 0:53:24 | |
He'd forgotten because he'd been in America too long. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:26 | |
He says, "Well, never mind, sing it." | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
Well, when I sang it I really caused a sensation, | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
because the aspidistra has a different meaning to the Americans | 0:53:33 | 0:53:35 | |
than it has for us. | 0:53:35 | 0:53:37 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
It's got a different meaning for me | 0:53:40 | 0:53:42 | |
than I suspect it does for you, but... | 0:53:42 | 0:53:43 | |
Well, it always meant a plant, | 0:53:43 | 0:53:46 | |
the aspidistra plant, and all up north | 0:53:46 | 0:53:48 | |
I think everybody has an aspidistra plant. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
I know my grandmother used to have one, my mother had one, | 0:53:51 | 0:53:54 | |
my grandmother used to put paper flowers in between them. | 0:53:54 | 0:54:01 | |
Well, our MV Mr Harry Stoneham is waiting over there, Gracie. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:03 | |
Oh, well. So if you want to cross there. | 0:54:03 | 0:54:06 | |
Gracie Fields. # Put your shoes on, Lucy... # | 0:54:06 | 0:54:08 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:54:08 | 0:54:16 | |
Well, well, well. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:17 | |
We've got the music, we hope for the best. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:20 | |
I hope I remember it. | 0:54:20 | 0:54:21 | |
Right. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:24 | |
# For years we had an aspidistra in a flowerpot | 0:54:26 | 0:54:30 | |
# On the whatnot near the hatstand in the hall | 0:54:30 | 0:54:34 | |
# Well, it didn't seem to grow till one day our brother Joe | 0:54:34 | 0:54:38 | |
# Had a notion that he'd make it strong and tall | 0:54:38 | 0:54:44 | |
# So he crossed it with an acorn from an oak tree | 0:54:44 | 0:54:49 | |
# And he planted it against the garden wall | 0:54:49 | 0:54:54 | |
# Well, it shot up like a rocket till it nearly reached the sky | 0:54:54 | 0:54:58 | |
# It's the biggest aspidistra in the world. | 0:54:58 | 0:55:05 | |
# We couldn't see the top of it it got so blooming high | 0:55:05 | 0:55:08 | |
# It's the biggest aspidistra in the world | 0:55:08 | 0:55:14 | |
# When father's had a snootful at his pub, The Bunch Of Grapes | 0:55:14 | 0:55:18 | |
# He doesn't go all fighting mad and getting into scrapes | 0:55:18 | 0:55:23 | |
# You'll find him in his bearskin playing Tarzan Of The Apes | 0:55:23 | 0:55:28 | |
# Up the biggest aspidistra in the world | 0:55:28 | 0:55:34 | |
# The pussycats and their sweethearts | 0:55:34 | 0:55:37 | |
# Love to spend their evenings out | 0:55:37 | 0:55:40 | |
# Up the biggest aspidistra in the world | 0:55:40 | 0:55:45 | |
# They all begin meowing when the buds begin to sprout | 0:55:45 | 0:55:49 | |
# From the biggest aspidistra in the world | 0:55:49 | 0:55:54 | |
# The dogs all come around for miles, a lovely sight to see | 0:55:54 | 0:56:00 | |
# They sniff around for hours and hours and wag their tails with glee | 0:56:00 | 0:56:05 | |
# So I've had to put a notice up to say it's not a tree | 0:56:05 | 0:56:10 | |
# It's the biggest aspidistra in the world. # | 0:56:10 | 0:56:16 | |
# I could have danced all night. # | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:56:19 | 0:56:29 | |
SHE WHISTLES | 0:56:43 | 0:56:46 | |
Stop. | 0:56:46 | 0:56:48 | |
Did you enjoy that, Sir John? | 0:56:48 | 0:56:50 | |
Oh, I did, every moment. | 0:56:50 | 0:56:51 | |
You liked the lyric? Yes. | 0:56:51 | 0:56:53 | |
Who wrote it? | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
It was Bill Haynes... Clever man. | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
..and somebody else. There were always three or four names, | 0:56:58 | 0:57:00 | |
because they used to join in. | 0:57:00 | 0:57:02 | |
I don't know how much they put in in each one, | 0:57:02 | 0:57:04 | |
but there were always three or four names it, | 0:57:04 | 0:57:07 | |
but Bill Haynes had this little music shop, | 0:57:07 | 0:57:08 | |
and he was a consul, too, for Haiti. | 0:57:08 | 0:57:12 | |
He was really a funny Cockney, a real Cockney. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:16 | |
He used to say, "Grace, I've got a lovely number for you now. | 0:57:16 | 0:57:19 | |
"This is the best you've ever had. Now I'll sing it for you." | 0:57:19 | 0:57:22 | |
He says, "Wait a minute, I'll get up," and he'd say, "Now.... | 0:57:22 | 0:57:25 | |
"Walter and me, we've been courting for years, | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
"but he's never asked me to wed. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
"When leap year comes round I'll give three hearty cheers, | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
"hooray, because I do the asking instead." | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
And he used to go on with that. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:38 | |
And then another time he came and he said he got this Sally | 0:57:38 | 0:57:41 | |
which I was talking about, and I wondered where he got it, | 0:57:41 | 0:57:44 | |
but we found out, and it worked out fine. | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
That was by Haynes, was it? | 0:57:46 | 0:57:48 | |
Yes, he was part of the Sally song. | 0:57:48 | 0:57:51 | |
He might well become our favourite lyricist | 0:57:51 | 0:57:52 | |
after Cole Porter and Lorenz Hart. Yes. | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
Bill Haynes. Yes. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:57 | |
I thought he was going to write one for Peggy, you see. | 0:57:57 | 0:58:00 | |
He should have done, shouldn't he? | 0:58:00 | 0:58:03 | |
Mm. I mean... He should have written that one, yes. | 0:58:03 | 0:58:06 | |
He should have written a love song for Peggy, yes. | 0:58:06 | 0:58:09 | |
# Isn't it bliss | 0:58:09 | 0:58:11 | |
# How we're a pair? | 0:58:11 | 0:58:14 | |
# Me here at last on the ground | 0:58:14 | 0:58:17 | |
# You in midair... # | 0:58:17 | 0:58:21 | |
SHE HUMS THE MELODY | 0:58:21 | 0:58:23 | |
That's Stephen Sondheim. | 0:58:23 | 0:58:24 | |
# Where are the clowns...? # | 0:58:24 | 0:58:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:26 | 0:58:28 | |
Did you see that show? | 0:58:28 | 0:58:35 | |
No. Send In The Clowns. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:41 | |
Yes, of course. A Little Night Music, the show is called. | 0:58:41 | 0:58:44 | |
A Little Night Music, yes. Written by a man called Stephen Sondheim. | 0:58:44 | 0:58:46 | |
Lovely. The one thing that discernible from people like you, | 0:58:46 | 0:58:49 | |
great stars, the one thing that separates you from the rest, | 0:58:49 | 0:58:51 | |
actually, is your energy, your boundless, boundless energy. | 0:58:51 | 0:58:55 | |
Well, you can't keep me still. | 0:58:55 | 0:58:57 | |
I got that from my mother, I guess. | 0:58:57 | 0:58:59 | |
It's God-given, anyway. Gracie Fields, you're still a great star, | 0:58:59 | 0:59:03 | |
and thank you very much for being our guest tonight. | 0:59:03 | 0:59:05 | |
Thank you very much for asking me. I enjoyed it immensely. | 0:59:05 | 0:59:08 | |
Bless you. Nice to meet you. | 0:59:08 | 0:59:09 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:59:09 | 0:59:16 | |
Sir John, as always, a pleasure to have you on my show. | 0:59:16 | 0:59:20 | |
Thank you very much indeed. I think he's lovely. | 0:59:20 | 0:59:24 | |
I wish I'd been his Elsie. | 0:59:24 | 0:59:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:59:26 | 0:59:35 | |
I'm six years older than Doris, but I don't even look older. | 0:59:35 | 0:59:39 | |
He's only 71! He is only 71. | 0:59:39 | 0:59:42 | |
Well, thank you, Warren. Warren! | 0:59:42 | 0:59:43 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:59:43 | 0:59:45 | |
I'll give you Warren. | 0:59:45 | 0:59:47 | |
Thank you, both of you. | 0:59:47 | 0:59:49 | |
Till same time... Thank you, Christopher Robin. | 0:59:49 | 0:59:51 | |
That's right. Till the same time next week, goodnight. | 0:59:51 | 0:59:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:59:53 | 1:00:03 |