Cam-drin Plant: Y Gwir Sy'n Lladd

Line	From	To
-Subtitles	0:00:00	0:00:00
-Subtitles - -Subtitles	0:00:00	0:00:02
-October 2016, Mold Crown Court.	0:00:12	0:00:14
-Final verdict in the case against -former police superintendent...	0:00:14	0:00:18
-..Gordon Anglesea.	0:00:19	0:00:21
-This is Gordon Anglesea arriving -at Mold Crown Court today.	0:00:30	0:00:34
-Throughout the case, he has denied -the allegations against him.	0:00:35	0:00:39
-But today, he learned his fate.	0:00:39	0:00:41
-Within the last few minutes, at Mold -Crown Court, a jury has ruled...	0:00:46	0:00:50
-..that the former superintendent -of North Wales Police...	0:00:51	0:00:55
-..is guilty of historical sex crimes -against two teenage boys.	0:00:55	0:00:59
-Gordon Anglesea, now aged 79, worked -as a superintendent in Wrexham...	0:01:00	0:01:04
-..when the sex attacks took place -in the 1980s.	0:01:04	0:01:07
-I just feel empty.	0:01:12	0:01:15
-I'm shaking.	0:01:16	0:01:18
-It's hard to believe that after -all these years, this day has come.	0:01:18	0:01:24
-Hearing those words, "guilty", -four times...	0:01:26	0:01:32
-..was a very strange feeling.	0:01:34	0:01:38
-I'm still trying to make sense -of the whole thing.	0:01:38	0:01:43
-Not just today, but everything -that's happened over the years.	0:01:43	0:01:48
-I haven't had much time to think yet -about what this means.	0:01:50	0:01:56
-That's how I feel today.	0:01:56	0:01:58
-For 27 years, David Williams has -been writing about child abuse...	0:02:03	0:02:07
-..in children's homes -in North Wales.	0:02:07	0:02:09
-This is the journalist's story...	0:02:10	0:02:14
-What is the reason -that it has taken so long...	0:02:15	0:02:19
-..for the truth to come out.	0:02:19	0:02:22
-We didn't really consider it -to be sexual abuse.	0:02:22	0:02:25
-It was the way things were. -It's how it was.	0:02:25	0:02:28
-It was rape, yes.	0:02:28	0:02:30
-It suggested to me that there had -been a culture of child abuse...	0:02:31	0:02:35
-..across North Wales -over a long period of time.	0:02:35	0:02:38
-The abuse wasn't just within the -home. I was taken to various places.	0:02:38	0:02:42
-How old were you?	0:02:42	0:02:44
-Twelve, until I left at sixteen.	0:02:44	0:02:46
-It was systemic abuse.	0:02:47	0:02:49
-Why weren't people prepared -to listen and believe?	0:02:49	0:02:54
-It's sickening.	0:02:55	0:02:57
-It's a damning indictment on society -in the UK, specifically North Wales.	0:02:58	0:03:03
-Over a dozen people -have committed suicide.	0:03:03	0:03:06
-We'll never prove it, but I believe -they killed themselves...	0:03:06	0:03:11
-..because of what happened to them -in these children's homes.	0:03:11	0:03:16
-1989: Journalist David Williams -worked for HTV Wales...	0:03:32	0:03:36
-..on the current affairs programme, -Wales This Week.	0:03:37	0:03:40
-I happened to see an article -in the local paper in Bangor...	0:03:42	0:03:48
-..about a woman -called Alison Taylor.	0:03:49	0:03:52
-She worked in a children's care home -in Bangor.	0:03:52	0:03:58
-The home was called Ty'r Felin.	0:03:58	0:04:00
-She saw what went on in that home...	0:04:00	0:04:04
-..where children were being abused.	0:04:04	0:04:07
-She tried to tell her employers...	0:04:07	0:04:12
-..Gwynedd County Council.	0:04:12	0:04:16
-The article reported -that she had been sacked...	0:04:16	0:04:21
-..and that -she was fighting the case...	0:04:22	0:04:24
-..and was prepared to go -to a tribunal.	0:04:24	0:04:27
-In 1989, Gwynedd -was forced into a settlement...	0:04:27	0:04:32
-..of my unfair dismissal claim...	0:04:32	0:04:34
-..because the industrial tribunal -demanded to hear the evidence...	0:04:34	0:04:39
-..that Gwynedd had used to sack me.	0:04:39	0:04:41
-At that point, Gwynedd panicked...	0:04:41	0:04:44
-..because they didn't have -any evidence.	0:04:44	0:04:47
-I was fitted up, to put it bluntly.	0:04:47	0:04:50
-As a journalist, -I thought there was a conspiracy...	0:04:51	0:04:54
-...and that they were -hiding something.	0:04:54	0:04:57
-They wanted to keep it quiet.	0:04:57	0:04:59
-I found out where she lived -and knocked on the door.	0:05:00	0:05:04
-That's where it started.	0:05:05	0:05:06
-We sat down. -I was there for a long time.	0:05:07	0:05:10
-She told me the background to the -story and what her concerns were.	0:05:11	0:05:17
-I thought it was a hell of a story.	0:05:17	0:05:20
-September 1991: HTV Wales broadcast -Wales This Week - Children in Care.	0:05:21	0:05:27
-Ty'r Felin on the outskirts -of Bangor in North Wales...	0:05:36	0:05:39
-..is one of three community homes...	0:05:40	0:05:42
-..looking after children in care -in Gwynedd.	0:05:42	0:05:45
-Five years ago, the home -was at the centre of allegations...	0:05:45	0:05:49
-..of assault on children.	0:05:49	0:05:51
-I was ten years old. -There was disruptive family life.	0:05:51	0:05:54
-There were prescription drugs -involved. There was bad parenting.	0:05:54	0:05:58
-There was alcohol.	0:05:59	0:06:00
-There was the estate mentality.	0:06:00	0:06:03
-I was one of many on my estate.	0:06:03	0:06:05
-I was one of forty from one estate -who were taken into care.	0:06:05	0:06:09
-My first thoughts -were the smell of disinfectant.	0:06:11	0:06:14
-The silence, the hollow tiled floor.	0:06:15	0:06:20
-The officer-in-charge -who greeted me on my arrival...	0:06:20	0:06:24
-..was the bastard, Nefyn Dodd.	0:06:24	0:06:28
-He battered many children.	0:06:29	0:06:31
-Me specifically - suffocation, -physical assaults, mental torture...	0:06:31	0:06:37
-..the constant fear, -the dread of Dodd...	0:06:37	0:06:42
-..was not something -I'd wish on anybody I know.	0:06:42	0:06:48
-Eight weeks I was there.	0:06:52	0:06:54
-I'd say, every other day -I was belted by Mr Dodd.	0:06:54	0:06:59
-I witnessed him bashing one boy...	0:07:00	0:07:02
-..and said if I saw anything -like that again...	0:07:02	0:07:05
-..I'd report it -straight to the police.	0:07:05	0:07:08
-I don't know why Dodd -was appointed to that post.	0:07:08	0:07:11
-Ty'r Felin -was the flagship assessment centre.	0:07:11	0:07:14
-It should've had a fully qualified -social worker in charge.	0:07:15	0:07:18
-Someone with management experience.	0:07:18	0:07:20
-But he was appointed. -It was bizarre.	0:07:21	0:07:23
-Did you try and tell anybody?	0:07:23	0:07:25
-Only my mother.	0:07:28	0:07:29
-Nobody else really listened.	0:07:31	0:07:34
-That was me.	0:07:35	0:07:36
-Just another kid in the car.	0:07:36	0:07:39
-There was something wrong -at this home.	0:07:40	0:07:44
-It wasn't always someone -being beaten and going to hospital.	0:07:44	0:07:49
-There was something -more subtle going on.	0:07:50	0:07:54
-If you didn't speak Welsh, -you were punished.	0:07:54	0:07:57
-Not so much physically punished.	0:07:58	0:08:00
-You were made to feel inadequate -because you couldn't communicate...	0:08:00	0:08:05
-..in the language -that was demanded...	0:08:05	0:08:07
-..in that establishment -at that time.	0:08:08	0:08:10
-I've never fully got over that.	0:08:10	0:08:14
-I felt it gave them -a sense of power over me.	0:08:14	0:08:18
-"You will fucking speak Welsh, -you little bastard."	0:08:19	0:08:22
-In an effort to get some response to -the fresh allegations of assault...	0:08:24	0:08:29
-..we approached Mr Nefyn Dodd -who is retired...	0:08:29	0:08:32
-..but we were only able -to speak to his wife.	0:08:33	0:08:35
-Is Mr Dodd in?	0:08:36	0:08:38
-No, he's not.	0:08:38	0:08:41
-Mrs June Dodd is now the -officer-in-charge at Ty'r Felin.	0:08:41	0:08:45
-My husband has a love of children.	0:08:45	0:08:48
-A lot of children -have great respect for my husband...	0:08:48	0:08:51
-..and no way would any child -be hit by my husband.	0:08:51	0:08:54
-And he would refute -all the allegations...	0:08:55	0:08:57
-..that he's assaulted anyone?	0:08:58	0:08:59
-Of course. -He'd only speak the truth.	0:09:00	0:09:02
-I've lived with my husband -for over thirty years...	0:09:02	0:09:05
-..and he's never ever been cruel -to anyone, man or animal.	0:09:05	0:09:09
-Thank you.	0:09:09	0:09:10
-The children are telling you -that nobody would listen.	0:09:12	0:09:17
-It goes deeper than that.	0:09:19	0:09:21
-What I came to know later on -about the number of complaints...	0:09:23	0:09:27
-..that had been made to Gwynedd -directly, before I said anything...	0:09:27	0:09:32
-..makes it clear -that Gwynedd County Council...	0:09:32	0:09:35
-..buried allegations of child abuse.	0:09:35	0:09:37
-After we got all these facts...	0:09:47	0:09:51
-..I remember trying to get -an interview with Lucille Hughes...	0:09:51	0:09:55
-..who ran social services at -Gwynedd County Council at the time.	0:09:55	0:10:00
-I had a meeting with her.	0:10:00	0:10:03
-I remember her looking at me -and saying...	0:10:04	0:10:07
-.."Mr Williams, you must understand -that Nefyn Dodd...	0:10:08	0:10:13
-"..would get down on his hands and -knees in the snow to help a child.	0:10:14	0:10:20
-"Do you understand me?"	0:10:20	0:10:22
-What I understood was that -they weren't going to believe me.	0:10:22	0:10:27
-Five years after the police -investigations into allegations...	0:10:29	0:10:33
-..of assaults on children -in care in Gwynedd...	0:10:33	0:10:36
-..Alison Taylor still persists with -her attempt to bring the matter...	0:10:36	0:10:40
-..to the attention of government -ministers and law officers.	0:10:40	0:10:44
-Looking back, -that programme appears quite tame.	0:10:44	0:10:48
-But, it created quite a sensation.	0:10:48	0:10:51
-You have to remember that people -didn't talk about such things then.	0:10:53	0:10:58
-Why were people -not prepared to listen...	0:10:58	0:11:02
-..or believe what was happening?	0:11:02	0:11:05
-Where was their sense -of responsibility?	0:11:05	0:11:08
-That's what I was trying to say -in that first programme.	0:11:08	0:11:12
-We asked Gwynedd Social Services -to respond to our latest findings.	0:11:13	0:11:17
-The director, Miss Lucille Hughes, -told us that at no time...	0:11:17	0:11:21
-..would the County Council subject -itself to "trial by Television".	0:11:21	0:11:25
-That was when I started down -an incredible path.	0:11:25	0:11:28
-I never thought I would be here...	0:11:28	0:11:32
-..a quarter of a century later -saying what I am saying now.	0:11:32	0:11:37
-.	0:11:48	0:11:48
-Subtitles	0:11:51	0:11:51
-Subtitles - -Subtitles	0:11:51	0:11:53
-The first documentary -on this issue...	0:12:11	0:12:15
-..opened the lid on Pandora's box.	0:12:15	0:12:19
-I got so much reaction and many -people had been shocked by it.	0:12:21	0:12:26
-Some people refused to believe it, -others criticized us.	0:12:27	0:12:32
-But other people got in touch with -us and told us we should be aware...	0:12:32	0:12:36
-..that this -wasn't just happening in Gwynedd.	0:12:36	0:12:39
-They wanted us to know that worse -stuff was going on in other homes.	0:12:39	0:12:44
-All over North Wales.	0:12:44	0:12:46
-We went out -and discovered it was true.	0:12:47	0:12:50
-It started with stories -about physically harming children.	0:12:51	0:12:57
-Then the stories about sexual -child abuse started to emerge.	0:12:59	0:13:05
-One of the places that was happening -was Bryn Estyn.	0:13:06	0:13:09
-For 30 years...	0:13:11	0:13:14
-..Bryn Estyn was one of Clwyd County -Council's main children's homes.	0:13:14	0:13:20
-This is Bryn Estyn, -just outside Wrexham.	0:13:42	0:13:46
-This is seen by some -as the centre of the universe...	0:13:48	0:13:51
-..in terms of child abuse -in North Wales.	0:13:51	0:13:53
-There were some very serious cases -of child abuse here.	0:13:54	0:14:00
-It has become iconic because -we've seen so many pictures of it...	0:14:01	0:14:06
-..on the news and other programmes.	0:14:07	0:14:11
-In the end, the county council -and police stopped me filming here.	0:14:11	0:14:16
-It's completely deserted now...	0:14:17	0:14:20
-..and many people feel the best -thing would be to demolish it.	0:14:20	0:14:25
-We called Bryn Estyn -the Colditz of Care.	0:14:40	0:14:42
-It was run like a prison regime -with prison-style uniforms.	0:14:42	0:14:46
-Blue jeans -with a striped prison shirt.	0:14:46	0:14:49
-You had boots and a number.	0:14:51	0:14:53
-I'll never forget my number. -It followed me through care. 28.	0:14:53	0:14:57
-The sexual abuse started -at Bersham Hall not Bryn Estyn.	0:14:58	0:15:01
-I had been abused -prior to going into Bersham Hall...	0:15:01	0:15:05
-..by a couple of police officers.	0:15:05	0:15:08
-Police officers?	0:15:09	0:15:11
-On the Richter Scale of sexual abuse -was this extremely serious?	0:15:12	0:15:18
-It was rape, yes.	0:15:18	0:15:19
-When you went to Bryn Estyn...	0:15:24	0:15:26
-..this kind of abuse -continued within that regime.	0:15:26	0:15:30
-It did but it was worse -because there were more people.	0:15:31	0:15:34
-I was abused by dozens of people -in Bryn Estyn.	0:15:35	0:15:37
-Physically and sexually.	0:15:38	0:15:39
-Also, I was sold.	0:15:40	0:15:43
-Out of Bryn Estyn, -I was sold to people outside.	0:15:43	0:15:47
-The abuse wasn't just in the home, -I was taken to various places.	0:15:47	0:15:51
-How old were you?	0:15:51	0:15:53
-Twelve, until I left at sixteen.	0:15:53	0:15:55
-The physical abuse -was obvious to everybody.	0:16:07	0:16:09
-There were that many staff beating -people up in front of everybody.	0:16:10	0:16:13
-That was crystal clear.	0:16:13	0:16:15
-It was also clear -what Peter Howarth was doing.	0:16:15	0:16:18
-The deputy principal.	0:16:18	0:16:19
-The deputy principal. - -He was the deputy principal.	0:16:19	0:16:21
-He got ten years in prison. -He died after serving two.	0:16:21	0:16:24
-He had a thing called a flat list.	0:16:24	0:16:26
-The flat list -was a list of boys' names...	0:16:27	0:16:30
-..drawn up weekly or daily...	0:16:30	0:16:33
-..of those boys chosen to spend -late evenings in Howarth's flat.	0:16:33	0:16:38
-One of the rules...	0:16:38	0:16:40
-..was boys had to be in pyjamas -but not wearing underpants.	0:16:41	0:16:44
-People fought to be on the list and -were jealous of those on the list.	0:16:47	0:16:51
-People resented -not being on the flat list.	0:16:52	0:16:55
-We didn't really consider it -as sexual abuse.	0:16:58	0:17:01
-It was the way things were. -It's how it was.	0:17:01	0:17:05
-The public seems to think this -has all come out in recent years.	0:17:08	0:17:12
-It's not. My first police statement -was in 1972.	0:17:13	0:17:16
-I made another one in 1977 -and two more in 1979.	0:17:16	0:17:22
-I made a further one in 1980.	0:17:22	0:17:25
-I made numerous police statements -and yet no action was taken.	0:17:25	0:17:29
-The story grew and grew. -We made more and more programmes.	0:17:33	0:17:39
-It kept on growing as more and more -people kept coming forward...	0:17:39	0:17:45
-..with stories -of how they suffered in these homes.	0:17:45	0:17:50
-It suggested to me that there -had been a culture of child abuse...	0:17:50	0:17:56
-..across North Wales -over a long period of time.	0:17:56	0:17:59
-And that many people had known -but that any complaints...	0:17:59	0:18:04
-..made by children had been buried -one way or the other.	0:18:05	0:18:08
-Children absconding from Bryn Estyn -had been picked up by the police...	0:18:09	0:18:13
-..they'd informed the police at the -time that they were being abused...	0:18:13	0:18:17
-..but the police -had simply taken them back there.	0:18:17	0:18:20
-It was systemic abuse by the people -running these institutions.	0:18:21	0:18:26
-People at county level -did nothing about these concerns...	0:18:26	0:18:32
-..even with people telling them.	0:18:33	0:18:35
-That's how it is.	0:18:35	0:18:37
-It's sickening.	0:18:38	0:18:40
-It's a damning indictment on society -in the UK, specifically North Wales.	0:18:41	0:18:47
-The next development -which changed things completely...	0:18:53	0:18:58
-..was that people -started coming forward...	0:18:59	0:19:02
-..claiming that the police...	0:19:02	0:19:04
-..rather than -looking into these accusations...	0:19:04	0:19:08
-..had individuals within it who were -complicit in the abuse of children.	0:19:08	0:19:14
-September 1992.	0:19:27	0:19:28
-David Williams is producing a Wales -This Week programme for HTV Wales.	0:19:28	0:19:33
-On camera, he questions two people -who claimed they were abused...	0:19:35	0:19:39
-..at Bryn Estyn by the former police -superintendent, Gordon Anglesea.	0:19:39	0:19:44
-I first met Gordon Anglesea...	0:19:51	0:19:54
-..on a street like this one -in Rhos-on-Sea.	0:19:54	0:19:57
-In fact, -it's the only time I've met him.	0:19:58	0:20:02
-I was getting another episode -of Wales This Week ready.	0:20:02	0:20:05
-I wanted to give him an opportunity -to respond to allegations...	0:20:06	0:20:10
-..that he had -sexually abused children.	0:20:10	0:20:13
-I doorstepped him -but he was very cool and composed...	0:20:14	0:20:20
-..just as he always appears.	0:20:20	0:20:23
-He answered me in the measured -manner of a police superintendent.	0:20:24	0:20:30
-It was clear -that he knew exactly how to respond.	0:20:30	0:20:34
-It was a string of 'no comment' -and 'see my solicitor'.	0:20:34	0:20:38
-In that programme, we gave -our verdict on Gordon Anglesea.	0:20:39	0:20:45
-However, even now, -despite the fact...	0:20:46	0:20:48
-..he's been found guilty of -sexual offences against children...	0:20:48	0:20:52
-..we can't show you clips -of that programme for legal reasons.	0:20:52	0:20:56
-That programme -led to Gordon Anglesea...	0:20:56	0:20:59
-..taking Wales This Week -and some others to the High Court.	0:20:59	0:21:03
-December 1994 - -The High Court, London.	0:21:07	0:21:10
-A libel case against HTV Wales.	0:21:10	0:21:14
-It was quite a famous case.	0:21:14	0:21:17
-In the words of the lawyers -at the time...	0:21:17	0:21:21
-.."There's no more serious libel -than the one you committed...	0:21:21	0:21:25
-"..in naming Gordon Anglesea -as a sexual abuser."	0:21:25	0:21:28
-That was the charge put against us.	0:21:29	0:21:32
-We had to prove -that what we had said was true.	0:21:32	0:21:38
-By this point, the Observer, -the Independent and Private Eye...	0:21:39	0:21:44
-..had made the same allegations.	0:21:44	0:21:47
-They were in the dock with us.	0:21:47	0:21:51
-This is the day Gordon Anglesea -has waited three years for.	0:21:51	0:21:56
-A television company and -three publications accused him...	0:21:56	0:21:59
-..of sexually abusing boys -but he took them on and won.	0:22:00	0:22:04
-Most of the jury -decided they didn't believe us.	0:22:04	0:22:09
-Ten of them -believed Gordon Anglesea.	0:22:10	0:22:13
-We were punished -and it cost millions...	0:22:14	0:22:17
-..with the man himself -getting over 300,000...	0:22:17	0:22:22
-..in damages.	0:22:23	0:22:24
-We took a real slap in that case.	0:22:25	0:22:30
-I have been vindicated, -my reputation is restored.	0:22:30	0:22:34
-The money is immaterial.	0:22:34	0:22:36
-I wanted that vindication -and that clearance and I've got it.	0:22:36	0:22:40
-Mark Humphreys and Steve Messham...	0:22:44	0:22:46
-..were defence witnesses -in that case.	0:22:46	0:22:49
-Both were former residents -at Bryn Estyn.	0:22:49	0:22:51
-I remember walking out -of the back door with Mark...	0:22:52	0:22:56
-..to avoid the cameras -waiting for us at the front door.	0:22:56	0:23:01
-As you'd expect, Mark and Steven -were very disappointed...	0:23:03	0:23:08
-..and had their heads down.	0:23:08	0:23:10
-Mark turned to me and said, -"At least two of them believed me."	0:23:12	0:23:17
-We had to look after -both of them that night.	0:23:18	0:23:22
-We sent Mark home with a nurse -because he was in such a state.	0:23:22	0:23:28
-A friend and I...	0:23:29	0:23:33
-..stayed up all night -outside Steven Messham's room.	0:23:33	0:23:37
-We feared -he might try to kill himself.	0:23:38	0:23:42
-We lost.	0:23:52	0:23:53
-Looking back, -that was a huge moment.	0:23:53	0:23:58
-It was the first time -I'd started to doubt myself.	0:23:59	0:24:03
-I thought -I might have got it wrong...	0:24:03	0:24:09
-..and that -I'd made a terrible mistake.	0:24:10	0:24:14
-Professionally, -that was the first time...	0:24:15	0:24:18
-..I started doubting my credentials -as a journalist.	0:24:18	0:24:23
-.	0:24:35	0:24:35
-Subtitles	0:24:38	0:24:38
-Subtitles - -Subtitles	0:24:38	0:24:40
-It affects you.	0:24:54	0:24:55
-As a father myself - -I have three children...	0:24:55	0:24:58
-..and at the time, -my daughter was young.	0:24:59	0:25:02
-As you do as parents, -I remember giving her a bath.	0:25:02	0:25:07
-It was my turn to do it.	0:25:07	0:25:09
-I remember, -I don't know how it came over me.	0:25:09	0:25:13
-I just stopped -touching my own daughter.	0:25:13	0:25:17
-The reason for that is...	0:25:19	0:25:21
-..all the things people had done -to children came into my mind.	0:25:21	0:25:27
-I just thought, -and I'll say it in English...	0:25:28	0:25:31
-..the bastards have got to me.	0:25:32	0:25:34
-That was something -I thought that really hit me.	0:25:35	0:25:41
-I couldn't at that moment, touch -my child, because I might do...	0:25:42	0:25:46
-..the same thing that I'd been -hearing about time after time.	0:25:46	0:25:50
-I didn't believe it to begin with, -but by now I'd heard about...	0:25:50	0:25:54
-..so many terrible things that -happened, it had affected me.	0:25:54	0:25:58
-It had entered by some sort -of osmosis and had got a grip of me.	0:25:58	0:26:02
-It was affecting me and the family.	0:26:02	0:26:04
-If this is broadcast...	0:26:05	0:26:07
-..my daughter -won't know that until now.	0:26:07	0:26:12
-Should I have made another decision?	0:26:17	0:26:20
-I don't think so.	0:26:21	0:26:22
-I have to believe the people who -said what they told me at the time.	0:26:22	0:26:27
-They said it and I must continue -to believe it...	0:26:28	0:26:31
-..because I've been -back to some of these people.	0:26:31	0:26:34
-I've talked to -Mark Humphreys' wife at the time.	0:26:34	0:26:37
-When you listen to what she says -about the effect of all this...	0:26:39	0:26:45
-..on her husband at the time, -it's extremely sad.	0:26:46	0:26:50
-She said that he came back from -that trial in London a changed man.	0:26:50	0:26:56
-He started drinking. -He attacked her.	0:26:56	0:27:01
-In the end, she had to leave -the house in the early hours...	0:27:01	0:27:05
-..taking the children with her -because she feared for her life.	0:27:05	0:27:09
-She says the reason for this was -that he'd received such a blow...	0:27:10	0:27:15
-..in the court in London -that it changed his life.	0:27:15	0:27:18
-February 1995. -Mark Humphreys' body is discovered.	0:27:22	0:27:28
-I heard about Mark's death -over the phone.	0:27:28	0:27:34
-Someone phoned me at home.	0:27:34	0:27:36
-They said they'd found his body.	0:27:36	0:27:39
-He'd hanged himself, supposedly...	0:27:39	0:27:42
-..in the bedsit in Wrexham -where he lived.	0:27:42	0:27:45
-He'd moved out of the family home.	0:27:45	0:27:48
-That was a big blow to me.	0:27:53	0:27:55
-If you feel that you've been -responsible, to a degree...	0:27:57	0:28:03
-..for the death of someone who had -appeared in one of your stories...	0:28:03	0:28:08
-..it doesn't -get bigger than that, does it?	0:28:10	0:28:13
-Someone killed himself -after giving evidence in court.	0:28:13	0:28:18
-He appeared on camera -like I'm doing now.	0:28:18	0:28:22
-Then everything got too much for him -and he committed suicide.	0:28:22	0:28:27
-I'd say that was the lowest point -in my professional life.	0:28:28	0:28:33
-What I've seen over the last quarter -of a century...	0:28:46	0:28:50
-..which I didn't understand -in the beginning...	0:28:50	0:28:53
-..is the effect on people -as they get older.	0:28:53	0:28:56
-I've had a couple of spells -in psych units.	0:28:57	0:28:59
-Psychiatric units?	0:29:00	0:29:01
-Psychiatric units? - -Psychiatric units, sorry.	0:29:01	0:29:03
-In fact it was only a year -last April I came out...	0:29:03	0:29:07
-..after being there for six months.	0:29:07	0:29:09
-So it doesn't go away, -it's still there. It's raw.	0:29:10	0:29:13
-1996. -The Jillings Report was completed.	0:29:14	0:29:17
-An independent report on behalf -of Clwyd County Council...	0:29:17	0:29:20
-..into allegations of child abuse.	0:29:20	0:29:22
-17 years passed -before it was published in 2013.	0:29:24	0:29:27
-"The report of an inquiry...	0:29:31	0:29:32
-.."into one of the biggest child -abuse scandals...	0:29:32	0:29:35
-.."Britain has ever seen -is being kept secret."	0:29:35	0:29:38
-"The council which ordered it -feared those who'd been abused...	0:29:38	0:29:42
-.."would make -massive compensation claims."	0:29:42	0:29:45
-I had a phone call from somebody -who was worried.	0:29:45	0:29:48
-I was invited to what used to be -a cupboard.	0:29:48	0:29:54
-On the table behind the door -was the Jillings Report.	0:29:54	0:30:00
-The only way this man was willing -to show me what was in the report...	0:30:00	0:30:06
-..was for me to be shut inside...	0:30:06	0:30:08
-..and left to have as much time as -necessary to read it and make notes.	0:30:09	0:30:15
-I went through the report -using a dictaphone.	0:30:15	0:30:21
-It confirmed for me -exactly what I had suspected.	0:30:22	0:30:28
-There it was, in black and white, -one page after the other.	0:30:30	0:30:34
-I tried my best to bring -these findings to the surface.	0:30:36	0:30:41
-People were afraid -because the claims were scary.	0:30:42	0:30:47
-Even Members of Parliament who -believed action should be taken...	0:30:47	0:30:51
-..weren't willing -to raise the subject officially.	0:30:51	0:30:55
-I had sent the details -in a brown envelope...	0:30:55	0:30:59
-..to those I'd hoped would raise -the issue, but it didn't happen.	0:30:59	0:31:05
-But afterwards, -everything advanced very quickly.	0:31:06	0:31:09
-The Welsh Secretary of State -at the time, William Hague...	0:31:10	0:31:14
-..decided to launch -an official inquiry.	0:31:14	0:31:18
-January 1997.	0:31:19	0:31:20
-The Waterhouse Report into child -abuse in North Wales was launched.	0:31:20	0:31:24
-The Waterhouse Report -was carried out.	0:31:32	0:31:35
-It went on, and on, and on...	0:31:35	0:31:39
-..at a cost of millions of pounds.	0:31:40	0:31:42
-Hundreds of people were called up.	0:31:44	0:31:47
-I'm not sure exactly...	0:31:47	0:31:50
-..how many words -were in it by the end...	0:31:50	0:31:54
-..but it was a very bulky report.	0:31:54	0:31:58
-Good evening.	0:31:59	0:32:00
-It's been a long time coming. -For many it's the end of the road.	0:32:00	0:32:04
-Some didn't finish the journey -and took their own lives.	0:32:04	0:32:07
-We're talking, of course, about the -long-awaited Waterhouse Report...	0:32:08	0:32:12
-..into child abuse in North Wales.	0:32:13	0:32:15
-Good things came from it.	0:32:15	0:32:17
-It recommended the appointment of -a Children's Commissioner For Wales.	0:32:17	0:32:22
-That has now happened and -it was very important that it did.	0:32:22	0:32:26
-At last, there was -something official...	0:32:27	0:32:29
-..you could hold in your hands -which admitted what happened.	0:32:30	0:32:33
-Something which supported -Alison Taylor's claims.	0:32:34	0:32:37
-According to Waterhouse, -without Alison Taylor...	0:32:37	0:32:41
-..the report would never -have been commissioned.	0:32:41	0:32:44
-The problem with -the Waterhouse Inquiry...	0:32:44	0:32:48
-..was although the tribunal -had a disciplinary remit...	0:32:49	0:32:54
-..they could refer individuals -for criminal investigation...	0:32:54	0:33:00
-..they didn't do so.	0:33:00	0:33:02
-They found over and over again, -if you read the report...	0:33:03	0:33:06
-..they come to a certain point.	0:33:07	0:33:09
-At one point they say children -were failed at house level...	0:33:09	0:33:13
-..by Gwynedd County Council - -neglected...	0:33:13	0:33:17
-..and that the council -buried abuse allegations.	0:33:17	0:33:20
-Those two factors should have been -referred for criminal investigation.	0:33:20	0:33:25
-I've wondered since, -and I've said since...	0:33:26	0:33:29
-..whether that tribunal report...	0:33:29	0:33:31
-..was edited by Government or -Whitehall before it was published.	0:33:32	0:33:36
-I don't see myself as an outsider.	0:33:49	0:33:52
-As a child I lived in New Zealand -but I was born in Wales.	0:33:52	0:33:56
-My father was the head -of a small school in Ganllwyd.	0:33:56	0:33:59
-Perhaps those years in New Zealand -gave me the ability...	0:34:00	0:34:04
-..to look at Wales from the outside.	0:34:04	0:34:10
-I think that's healthy.	0:34:12	0:34:14
-It gives you -a different perspective.	0:34:14	0:34:17
-There's no doubt -people look after themselves first.	0:34:21	0:34:25
-Factions, if you like - -you see it in the police.	0:34:25	0:34:30
-You see it in county councils.	0:34:31	0:34:35
-You see it in - dare I say it? - -freemasonry.	0:34:35	0:34:41
-Freemasonry is attached to this. -I'm not trying to be conspiratorial.	0:34:42	0:34:46
-Perhaps an even more burning -subject...	0:34:47	0:34:51
-..is that fact that language -comes into it.	0:34:52	0:34:54
-Some of the people -I've spoken to are Welsh.	0:34:55	0:34:58
-They're from Wales, -and feel Welsh...	0:34:58	0:35:03
-..but aren't quite -in the little club.	0:35:03	0:35:08
-Perhaps that has been responsible -for what people haven't done.	0:35:08	0:35:13
-We just don't like to believe...	0:35:14	0:35:16
-..that we, as a nation, are guilty -of what we've being speaking about.	0:35:16	0:35:22
-October 2012.	0:35:30	0:35:31
-ITV broadcasts a television -programme accusing Jimmy Savile...	0:35:31	0:35:36
-..of sexual assaults on young girls, -exactly one year after his death.	0:35:36	0:35:41
-Jimmy Savile, as we are now -all aware, was a serial abuser.	0:35:43	0:35:46
-The biggest paedophile -we've ever heard of.	0:35:47	0:35:53
-But more than the individual and -the serious crimes he committed...	0:35:54	0:35:59
-..the fact we know about it, -changed everything.	0:35:59	0:36:03
-It changed in a way -we would have welcomed...	0:36:03	0:36:09
-..a quarter of a century ago.	0:36:09	0:36:11
-People refused to believe...	0:36:11	0:36:13
-..people were capable of such -things in homes.	0:36:13	0:36:16
-Then they couldn't believe that -famous people could do this...	0:36:17	0:36:21
-..or people in authority.	0:36:21	0:36:24
-Jimmy Savile showed -that people were capable of it...	0:36:24	0:36:28
-..and were getting away with it too.	0:36:28	0:36:31
-Day after day people come forward -from the '50s, '60s, '70s and 80s.	0:36:32	0:36:38
-Churches and children's -organisations, scouts.	0:36:38	0:36:41
-Is there anybody out there who -hasn't experienced abuse themselves?	0:36:43	0:36:49
-It's a fucking damning indictment -on the UK childcare services.	0:36:49	0:36:53
-It really is mental.	0:36:53	0:36:56
-.	0:36:56	0:36:56
-Subtitles	0:37:07	0:37:07
-Subtitles - -Subtitles	0:37:07	0:37:09
-December 2014.	0:37:19	0:37:20
-John Allen is sentenced for -serious sexual abuse of children.	0:37:20	0:37:26
-I don't know how many times -I've driven along the A55.	0:37:28	0:37:33
-The North Wales coastal road.	0:37:33	0:37:36
-I'm off to visit someone -or someone has rang.	0:37:37	0:37:40
-They usually want to talk about -what happened to them in the homes.	0:37:41	0:37:45
-After that first programme -it became clear...	0:37:48	0:37:53
-..that abuse was also happening -in private homes.	0:37:53	0:37:58
-Those homes were called -the Bryn Alyn Community.	0:37:58	0:38:02
-They were being run -by a man called John Allen.	0:38:03	0:38:07
-Today, we're on the road once again -because he's up in court.	0:38:08	0:38:12
-The case has been going seven weeks.	0:38:14	0:38:16
-He's accused of 40 offences -against 20 different people.	0:38:17	0:38:22
-After a week of discussions, -the jury has decided he's guilty.	0:38:23	0:38:28
-They've found him guilty -on 33 counts...	0:38:29	0:38:32
-..with six of those being -very serious charges.	0:38:32	0:38:35
-"John Allen arrived at court this -morning to face numerous charges...	0:38:58	0:39:03
-.."of sexually abusing children."	0:39:03	0:39:05
-"The 73-year-old is the first person -to answer charges brought...	0:39:05	0:39:09
-.."by Operation Pallial -into historic cases of abuse."	0:39:09	0:39:12
-Just listening to the words -being used was very serious.	0:39:23	0:39:28
-Buggery, -indecent assault, oral rape.	0:39:29	0:39:33
-For me, one of the witnesses...	0:39:34	0:39:37
-..alluded to by the judge in his -closing statement said it all.	0:39:38	0:39:43
-It had taken that witness 40 years -of effort to get to the point...	0:39:46	0:39:51
-..where he could reveal -what had happened to him.	0:39:51	0:39:55
-He was asked if he still -thought about John Allen at all.	0:39:55	0:40:00
-He replied -'Every second of my life.'	0:40:01	0:40:04
-He said there was -no such thing as closure.	0:40:04	0:40:08
-"There were whoops of joy -this morning in court...	0:40:14	0:40:18
-.."when John Allen -was sentenced to jail for life."	0:40:18	0:40:22
-"The 73-year-old will spend -at least eleven years behind bars."	0:40:23	0:40:28
-"Dafydd Evans, from Mold -Crown Court, bringing us that news."	0:40:29	0:40:33
-That's the verdict.	0:40:34	0:40:36
-It's on Radio Cymru -so we know it must be official.	0:40:36	0:40:42
-It's odd to hear it -after being in court this morning.	0:40:42	0:40:47
-But that is just -the end of one chapter.	0:40:48	0:40:51
-It's the beginning of a process.	0:40:51	0:40:54
-I'm sure that Operation Pallial will -continue to reveal more and more...	0:40:54	0:41:00
-..serious offences like the one -heard today at Mold Crown Court.	0:41:01	0:41:06
-March 2016. -The publication of the Macur Review.	0:41:12	0:41:16
-There was another review running -alongside Operation Palliol...	0:41:18	0:41:24
-..headed up by Lady Justice Macur.	0:41:26	0:41:29
-This was looking -at the work of Waterhouse.	0:41:30	0:41:36
-Her report was published -earlier this year.	0:41:38	0:41:41
-On a first look it appeared as if...	0:41:42	0:41:46
-..she'd given Waterhouse -a clean slate.	0:41:46	0:41:50
-Other people weren't as happy...	0:41:50	0:41:53
-..and felt Waterhouse -didn't go far enough.	0:41:53	0:41:57
-They weren't happy -with Lady Justice Macur either.	0:42:00	0:42:03
-No justice at all, -certainly no justice for...	0:42:04	0:42:08
-..the young lads, or young men -they were, that committed suicide.	0:42:10	0:42:14
-Certainly no justice for me -and no justice for dozens more.	0:42:14	0:42:18
-Are you saying that some of the -people who abused you...	0:42:18	0:42:21
-..in the way that you've described -are still walking the streets today?	0:42:22	0:42:26
-Yes, many, many of them.	0:42:26	0:42:27
-There's never been no resolution, -you see, has there? For anyone.	0:42:28	0:42:32
-People are being been prosecuted, -people are going to jail today.	0:42:32	0:42:37
-Yes, maybe so, -but how long has it taken?	0:42:37	0:42:39
-It has to have a point.	0:42:42	0:42:44
-There has to be a recognition -that these inquiries...	0:42:44	0:42:48
-..the money that's being spent, -the time that's been invested...	0:42:49	0:42:55
-..there has to be an outcome, -an end result.	0:42:55	0:42:58
-If not, what is the point? -What's the point of any of it?	0:42:59	0:43:03
-Will things change for people?	0:43:04	0:43:06
-No, I think it's going to get worse -before they get better.	0:43:06	0:43:09
-Yes, there's no question about it.	0:43:09	0:43:12
-And how will that affect you, -Steven?	0:43:12	0:43:15
-I take each day as it comes. -And I'm happy to do it that way.	0:43:15	0:43:19
-And how would you sum up -where you are in life at the moment?	0:43:20	0:43:24
-I'm nowhere in life.	0:43:25	0:43:27
-One day I'll get somewhere.	0:43:27	0:43:29
-I think it was worth -trying to tell the truth.	0:43:50	0:43:54
-Was it worth paying the price -of seeing someone commit suicide?	0:43:54	0:44:00
-No. No.	0:44:00	0:44:02
-But when his wife tells me now...	0:44:02	0:44:05
-..that someone had to stand up -and say this...	0:44:05	0:44:08
-..I feel a bit more at ease but -it would be very difficult now...	0:44:09	0:44:12
-..knowing what I know, to ask them -to stand in front of the camera...	0:44:13	0:44:18
-..and say what they'd told me.	0:44:18	0:44:20
-I feel that would be one step -too far.	0:44:20	0:44:22
-I'd do everything else the same.	0:44:23	0:44:25
-I'm not trying to be immodest -but why not?	0:44:26	0:44:29
-It's been important in my life...	0:44:29	0:44:32
-..in my professional life -in North Wales...	0:44:32	0:44:36
-..to say what we've said.	0:44:36	0:44:38
-Because it's been true.	0:44:38	0:44:40
-November 2016, Mold Crown Court.	0:44:42	0:44:45
-Gordon Anglesea is sentenced for -sexually assaulting two boys.	0:44:45	0:44:52
-"A former Superintendent -in the Wrexham area...	0:45:03	0:45:06
-.."Gordon Anglesea -was a respectable, powerful...	0:45:06	0:45:10
-.."and influential man."	0:45:10	0:45:11
-"But during those years -in the early 1980s...	0:45:12	0:45:15
-.."the jury concluded that he had -sexually assaulted two boys."	0:45:15	0:45:20
-"A fortnight later, Gordon Anglesea -was back in court for sentencing."	0:45:20	0:45:25
-I can tell you, -and I can say it here now...	0:45:26	0:45:29
-..I'm not going to the court to say, -'This is my day'.	0:45:29	0:45:33
-I'd be very foolish to do that.	0:45:33	0:45:36
-Some people will watch this -and think...	0:45:48	0:45:50
-..'Right, this is our time'.	0:45:51	0:45:53
-'Are they going to listen now, -after everything that's happened?'	0:45:53	0:45:57
-What a lovely day!	0:46:19	0:46:21
-What a lovely day.	0:46:24	0:46:26
-The perfect sentence.	0:46:26	0:46:28
-"A former policeman has been given -a twelve year prison sentence"...	0:46:29	0:46:33
-.."for sexually abusing boys -in the 1980s."	0:46:34	0:46:36
-"Gordon Anglesea, aged 79, -was an inspector in Wrexham...	0:46:37	0:46:40
-.."when he assaulted -two teenage boys."	0:46:40	0:46:43
-"The judge said he had changed their -lives forever."	0:46:43	0:46:46
-But what is the truth? -That is the big question.	0:46:47	0:46:50
-That's the question I've been asking -young people over the years.	0:46:50	0:46:56
-I've been asking myself -the same question.	0:46:57	0:47:00
-And the answer?	0:47:00	0:47:02
-Well, sometimes it's hard to tell.	0:47:02	0:47:05
-Sometimes people lie.	0:47:05	0:47:08
-But ultimately, I'm certain -in my mind that young people...	0:47:08	0:47:13
-..hundreds of them, have been -telling the truth over the years...	0:47:13	0:47:18
-..when they've been saying that they -were abused as children...	0:47:19	0:47:22
-..in North Wales.	0:47:23	0:47:24
-I think that's sad and -a matter of great shame to us all.	0:47:24	0:47:30
-S4C Subtitles by Testun Cyf.	0:48:14	0:48:16
-.	0:48:16	0:48:17

Cam-drin Plant: Y Gwir Sy'n Lladd

Similar Content

Factual

Transcript

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS