Leftover Wife: Caitlin Thomas Kane on Friday


Leftover Wife: Caitlin Thomas

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because it's an experience in a lifetime

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It's just that I didn't want to share him with anybody.

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someone who's made for everybody all for myself.

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Since he's dead, he's become more and more everybody's property.

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"I labour by singing light not for ambition or bread

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"Or the strut and trade of charm upon the ivory stages

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"But for the common wages of their most secret heart."

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It's now 24 years since the death of Dylan Thomas,

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that extraordinary Welshman, described by one of his biographers

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as the finest lyric poet since Keats.

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The man who became a legend in his own lifetime

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as the author of the radio play Under Milk Wood.

:01:11.:01:15.

Dylan died in a New York hospital after a coma at the age of 39.

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The words on the death certificate were "insult to the brain".

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In fact, it was alcoholic and perhaps sexual exhaustion.

:01:24.:01:26.

I think it's a good enough legend. It's near enough to the truth.

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As near to it, probably, as any legend is

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because Dylan really... fanatically lived up...

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I think he deliberately created the legend and I followed suit.

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We both worked very hard at that legend.

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herself a tempestuous, brilliantly attractive woman,

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the years which have elapsed since then, angry, bitter, drunken,

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Peace which, I believe, she's found now here in Rome.

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She's lived in Italy ever since the funeral.

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Now, she has an apartment overlooking the Tiber.

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And for five years, she's been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

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Since I came to Italy, I think I was without knowing it,

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going in the direction of sobriety and a spiritual life.

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I didn't want anything more to do with that old drinking life

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All those old associations, I wanted to escape from.

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My sobriety in the beginning has been a very bad sobriety.

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I felt very miserable and empty and in a huge void.

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Over 30 years of drink, you can't just drop like that.

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that some sort of blocks have dislocated in my mind

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and my brain seems to have got a bit clearer.

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It was absolutely fogged up. I couldn't remember a thing.

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I can't remember a lot now, but compared to what it was...

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I couldn't speak. For years, I could hardly open my mouth.

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And if I can talk to you, it's thanks to AA

:03:17.:03:19.

I like some of the things about the Latin way of life.

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Chiefly then, I must admit, it was the wine and the men.

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It was nothing more romantic than that.

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Now that those two things have pretty well been taken away from me,

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a new problem has been posed to me of finding something else

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don't seem to quite take the place of the wine and the men.

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So you've got another battle ahead of you then.

:03:51.:03:53.

Yes. It does tend to become rather boring, I'm afraid,

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You know, that chatting that went on, I miss that more than anything.

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At my age now, I don't expect any more sex life

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and I can't have any more booze, so I've got to find a substitute.

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The occupational trouble too, you know.

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Trying to find something interesting enough to do.

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I try and do a bit of writing and reading, exercising and all that.

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You had two Irish parents, but you were born in England.

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Was it a conventional upbringing you had?

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It was what we chose to call an artistic upbringing,

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Which meant of course we never went to proper schools

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and we had odd, strange French governesses.

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We never learnt all the things you ought to learn.

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We were just left to run wild really.

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What were the things that you didn't learn that you think looking back...

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but we didn't learn history, geography.

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All those standard subjects, we just knew nothing about.

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Or where to put the punctuation, that kind of thing.

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We were uneducated. We didn't feel it.

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It was only the boys who were educated in those days.

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The brother, he had a proper education.

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But compared with the John children, who we fraternised with,

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They were even more neglected and more wild than us.

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They never had any clothes on anyway.

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Much has been written and much has been speculated

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about the strange association of all of you girls with Augustus John.

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He was a close friend, was he? Or was he more than that?

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He was a close friend of my mother and father

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and then he came to live near us in the country.

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We used to go up and down to each other's homes

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and to parties and all with the children.

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I had a great friend in Vivian John, the youngest girl.

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We staged a great escape and run away from home,

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which none of the parents seemed to notice.

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and we went to an audition in front of Cockran.

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I think Cockran was a friend of Augustus John's.

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Then we stayed in a hotel where her father paid the bill.

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And we ate there. We had a fine time.

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But no-one seemed to notice our absence much.

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He had a desperate reputation, Augustus John.

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Pouncing on everybody kind of thing. That's right.

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Oh, yes, constantly. And on his daughters.

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And on... Well, boys were not immune either.

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It was just after that that you met Dylan first, wasn't it?

:07:11.:07:14.

Yes, I remember meeting him in that pub with Augustus.

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There he was, talking away as usual, disheveled,

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just looking like the parody of a poet.

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Yes, Augustus had said he knew this livewire of a Welshman.

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He had just mentioned a few words about him.

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He hadn't anticipated that we'd get on so well

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and he wasn't so pleased when we did.

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Why not? He was jealous, was he? He was. He was jealous, yes.

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I remember I had on a very beautiful flowery dress

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My great success with Dylan I put down to this flowery dress!

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He was very taken with it too and he kind of...

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He was dead set on you from the very start.

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Yes. He kind of fell all over me, put his head on my knee,

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It seems almost immediately that we fell into bed together.

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as though we'd known each other all the time.

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In those days, marriage was the thing to do, I suppose.

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I don't know if it was the thing to do then,

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but I think Dylan had this idea about the marriage.

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I think he felt he had to marry some woman

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and I think he thought I was a cut above the women he had been with.

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I don't know what exactly he thought.

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He was very young. Was he very experienced with women at this age?

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I don't know which of us was more ignorant really.

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You talk about the drinking, even in those days, he was drinking heavily?

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Right from the start. I suffered in the beginning.

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I think I came from a drinking family

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but I wasn't used to doing it from the morning on.

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I found it very hard to start just as the pubs opened at 11 o'clock.

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Clocking in for rows of light ales to get over the hangover.

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Usually, he had his old cronies round him.

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He'd stay there all the morning and then in the afternoon,

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we never had any lunch, we starved to death nearly.

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At the beginning, I was very hungry and very strong.

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Then in the afternoon, instead of fading out

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and waited until the pubs opened again at half past five.

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It was a complete day in the end. That was in town, in London.

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In those early days when you were first married,

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what did he want to do with his life?

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That's the only thing he ever thought to do.

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From the very start, he had just the one idea.

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Poems and the booze. In that order, was it then?

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Yes. The poems definitely were more important, but, erm...

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I think he used the booze to wipe out the poems,

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not to think about them when he wasn't writing them.

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How did he write poetry? Was it easy for him?

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He used to go into his little shed and scrape and scratch

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and mutter and mumble in tone and change.

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In one afternoon from about two until seven,

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or taken out one word or put in one word.

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In his poetry, he seems obsessed with his own childhood.

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Yes. He was terribly sentimental about his childhood and school days.

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Sometimes I think he never progressed from there.

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I don't think he wanted to look forward.

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he seems to have been obsessed with the idea of an early death.

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Yes, he was. Neither of us wanted to get old and ugly.

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He was always convinced that he was going to die

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He had this ridiculous romantic idea of the poet starving in the garret.

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He always built up this idea of being tubercular and being sick

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because his mother had pampered him so much as a little boy.

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I think actually, he was a lot tougher than he tried to make out.

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His constitution was much stronger than he made out.

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He wanted to be pale and dying all the time.

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Actually, his bones broke pretty easily.

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He kept falling down and breaking bones.

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All that helped the image he was trying to build up

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of the tubercular, consumptive, dying, pale poet.

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It was much more like David Gascoigne. That was his image.

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He wanted to be long and sickly and green and all that.

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and not like the conventional idea of a poet at all.

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Was he the same man in his own private life

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No. He was rather off stage in the house.

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He just liked his warm slippers and his dish of tit-bits

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and pickled onions and sardines and anything with a lot of vinegar,

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and cockles, all put on a plate, which he'd stuff into his mouth

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when he was listening to the cricket scores.

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He was just Mr Everyman until he put on the act of being the poet

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He never liked to talk about his poems.

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But when he was in the pub for instance,

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he was always telling funny stories.

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Nothing to do with poetry. He didn't want to talk about it.

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he would only answer per force, as if he was made to talk about it.

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He didn't want to be bothered with it except when he was working on it.

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One of the few people who could talk to him about the workings of a poem

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was Vernon Watkins, who he did open up to.

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Although, with me privately he'd say,

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"Oh my God, what a bore. I've got to talk poetry with Vernon Watkins."

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And he'd try to get Vernon drunk so that he wouldn't talk about poetry.

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Vernon practically never drank at all, so he was the most comic drunk

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because he didn't know what was happening.

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Was he interested in the domestic side of bringing up children?

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Not at all. He was a hopeless father. He couldn't have been worse.

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He didn't want anything to do with the children.

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He just liked to feel they were there.

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When he was in the pub in London, he'd bring out the photographs.

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He was very sentimental about it. He'd show them to all the people.

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But he had nothing to do with them in a practical sense.

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As the marriage progressed and as the relationship progressed,

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did the drinking get worse or did it stabilise?

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I think drinking automatically gets worse,

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even if you go on drinking the same amount.

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My drinking got a lot worse because I was drinking spirits

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when Dylan was drinking enormous pints of beer

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that I couldn't possibly fit inside myself.

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I'd take short ones and I'd drink more and more whiskey.

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I think I was destroying myself faster probably in Laugharne.

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Dylan, when he went to town, he'd start on the shorts,

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and of course then there came America, which was worst of all.

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Did he like Laugharne? Yes. He loved Laugharne.

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He's much more sentimental about it than I was

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because he could go up and down and escape.

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I think he must have felt the lack of intellectual conversation.

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He was happy, but I've got a sneaking feeling

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that he was also bored after a certain time.

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Bored? Yes. Because some people suggest that he stayed there

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because he was afraid to go elsewhere. What do you think?

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It was his only working place for one thing. He did want to work.

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But we also had to make some attempt to make money.

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The excuse he made to go to London was to make a few pounds.

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Occasionally he did, with the BBC, but he'd spend it immediately.

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It was never a valid excuse but he couldn't go on not making any money.

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the cliche that when poverty comes in at the window

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It's not true. Poverty was there. It was there right from the start.

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We were so used to it. Real poverty? Yes, really poor.

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I was used to it. I had this mother who never mentioned money.

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I didn't realise we were so poor in our humble cottage.

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Our mother treated us all like great ladies who'd marry rich men.

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We were just waiting to move in to the rich house.

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How bad was the poverty in your married life?

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Dylan used to worry terribly about it. He had sleepless nights.

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That accumulated and got worse with the bills and debts.

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But, of course, then he got this patroness.

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This Margaret, can I mention her? Yes.

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Margaret Taylor helped us more than anybody.

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Without her, I don't know what we'd have done.

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She bought us various houses and put us up in Oxford,

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in a little studio place in the grounds and so on.

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Were you ever in total want, in destitution in Laugharne?

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We put the food bills down and we put the drink on tick

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until the patroness came down and paid them off every now and then.

:17:30.:17:34.

Was it that Dylan didn't have money or that he was prodigal with it?

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But as soon as he got a bit, we used to drink it.

:17:40.:17:48.

I used to try to steal a few pounds for the Carmarthen market,

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for dishes, pots, pans, shawls and blankets.

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but occasionally I'd steal the odd pound to buy plates and so on.

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Steal it from the drinking money? Yes.

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At what stage did things start to go publicly wrong?

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You began to have scenes with Dylan, didn't you? Yes.

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It wasn't about the money, it was about the infidelity.

:18:20.:18:23.

It took some time to sink into my damn head.

:18:24.:18:29.

I was left in Laugharne and most of Dylan's adventures, or whatever,

:18:30.:18:37.

went on in London. He'd just disappear for a few weeks.

:18:38.:18:41.

I'd hear nothing. I didn't know where to ring him.

:18:42.:18:44.

He'd say he'd had the most ghastly flu.

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Possibly, he'd been drinking and flopping into bed with any woman.

:18:50.:18:54.

That was not serious at all as far as he was concerned.

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I couldn't care less about the flu or the drinking,

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but the infidelity I just couldn't take.

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I was murderous. I just killed him for that.

:19:05.:19:07.

I remember, after coming back, after a drinking evening in Laugharne,

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we had the most appalling fights in the bedroom,

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tearing him on the ground by those curls

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and banging his head on the floor as hard as I could.

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I was a bit stronger than him and he seemed to allow me to do it.

:19:24.:19:28.

He must have fought back, but I don't remember him hitting me.

:19:29.:19:32.

You used to fight physically with him? Oh, God, yes.

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Once, I took a torch and banged him on the head.

:19:36.:19:40.

"Do you realise you might be killing an immortal poet?"

:19:41.:19:45.

I couldn't care. I didn't give a damn.

:19:46.:19:48.

He was quite prepared to pay the price to these patronesses.

:19:49.:19:54.

If they wanted to go to bed with him, he was going to do it.

:19:55.:19:58.

he'd speak on the phone for five hours with this bloody woman.

:19:59.:20:04.

Something stopped me interrupting, I don't know what it was.

:20:05.:20:09.

I'd noticed, even in America, when he started getting off with a woman,

:20:10.:20:15.

I was so cut out of the picture, I somehow felt I couldn't interfere.

:20:16.:20:22.

People say, and he may have said, these things were only incidents.

:20:23.:20:28.

Yes, right. I believe that and so he said.

:20:29.:20:35.

I just couldn't take him doing the physical act with anyone else.

:20:36.:20:39.

I did not accept that in any way whatsoever.

:20:40.:20:42.

Nevertheless, I should add I was partly trying to keep up with him,

:20:43.:20:50.

having my revenge down with the local oafs.

:20:51.:20:53.

I was by no means leading a dutiful, virtuous life.

:20:54.:20:57.

When he wasn't there, I was drinking as much as I could

:20:58.:21:01.

and behaving in a most unconventional way.

:21:02.:21:05.

I didn't want him as a bed mate, I wanted him completely faithful.

:21:06.:21:19.

We both had this image of each other which was quite ridiculous.

:21:20.:21:26.

We wanted the other one to be perfectly faithful.

:21:27.:21:30.

We knew what we did was of no importance at all.

:21:31.:21:34.

I was really following in his footsteps.

:21:35.:21:38.

I was trying to out-do him and be worse than him.

:21:39.:21:41.

Dylan was invited to America in 1950 by Malcolm Brinnin,

:21:42.:21:48.

who ran the Poetry Centre in New York.

:21:49.:21:51.

Brinnin arranged two more tours. Caitlin went on the second trip.

:21:52.:21:55.

It was a barn storming, boozing coast-to-coast tour.

:21:56.:21:59.

Caitlin said they were an excuse for idleness and infidelity.

:22:00.:22:03.

We weren't used to that kind of thing.

:22:04.:22:06.

You never get all that arse licking in England.

:22:07.:22:10.

I don't blame him. I was probably very envious

:22:11.:22:16.

All that overdoing it is very bad for anybody

:22:17.:22:25.

unless you are terribly civilised, rich and used to it.

:22:26.:22:29.

Very few people, least of all us, could stand up to it.

:22:30.:22:35.

He worked hard with his readings and his tours.

:22:36.:22:41.

He did both. It was an impossible job to drink all the time

:22:42.:22:48.

and to give these very concentrated readings.

:22:49.:22:51.

He was flying all over, one on top of the other.

:22:52.:22:55.

It must have been gruelling hard for him.

:22:56.:22:58.

He could have only just done it well without the drink.

:22:59.:23:02.

He did it, he gave the whole of himself to his reading

:23:03.:23:06.

and the whole of himself to his company.

:23:07.:23:09.

It's just impossible for a physical person.

:23:10.:23:12.

And there were infidelities too in America?

:23:13.:23:15.

Oh my God, those bloody American women are shameless.

:23:16.:23:19.

They were sending him flowers, that kind of thing.

:23:20.:23:23.

They were all over him. It really filled me with disgust,

:23:24.:23:29.

the whole picture, the way these women flung themselves at him.

:23:30.:23:34.

Talking about the American business and the infidelity,

:23:35.:23:37.

Do Liz and Sarah mean anything in particular?

:23:38.:23:45.

They ring a rather horrible bell with me.

:23:46.:23:49.

There was that Pearl one. Is that the one you mean?

:23:50.:23:58.

The one he was alleged to have been serious about.

:23:59.:24:01.

She wrote him endless letters and he used to keep them in his pockets.

:24:02.:24:06.

I used to read all the letters. He didn't bother to read them.

:24:07.:24:11.

That worried me. That upset me a hell of a lot.

:24:12.:24:15.

The first I heard of that was when Margaret Taylor came down

:24:16.:24:21.

to say she'd come over from America to meet him in London

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and she was covered in all these dangly things.

:24:25.:24:28.

There was I, slaving away in the bogs with my children.

:24:29.:24:34.

There was he, gallivanting. I was absolutely mad with rage.

:24:35.:24:39.

I think I wrote a very rude letter, an abusive letter, to her.

:24:40.:24:51.

I don't know if she ever got it or anything.

:24:52.:24:56.

Yet, he told everyone that when he was away from you,

:24:57.:25:03.

he found life impossible and unbearable.

:25:04.:25:06.

He apparently told Brinnin that he loved two women.

:25:07.:25:10.

At this time, with Pearl, he loved two women, me and her.

:25:11.:25:15.

I remember that was the time I was pregnant with Colm.

:25:16.:25:23.

I think that was the only reason, because Dylan was sentimental,

:25:24.:25:30.

that he stuck to me rather than Pearl.

:25:31.:25:32.

He obviously was pretty serious about her.

:25:33.:25:35.

Me, he just made fun of "that stupid old bitch".

:25:36.:25:39.

"She's been following me around, being a bloody nuisance."

:25:40.:25:43.

He never admitted it. He'd never dream to come clean with me.

:25:44.:25:48.

Yet, he wrote you the most moving love letters.

:25:49.:25:51.

Yes, all the time, as though I was the only woman that existed in life.

:25:52.:25:56.

Yes, some of them were very beautiful.

:25:57.:26:02.

It makes a queer impression to read them later on.

:26:03.:26:06.

He had to have that image on a pedestal.

:26:07.:26:12.

I think it had nothing to do with the real me that we all go on about.

:26:13.:26:17.

I don't think anything a man really loves is real,

:26:18.:26:21.

What do you think it was that destroyed Dylan?

:26:22.:26:27.

I think it was a combination of all those things.

:26:28.:26:34.

He went to all his worst weaknesses and his indulgences.

:26:35.:26:45.

He had no strength of character or discipline.

:26:46.:26:50.

There was no hardness, the kind of things you'd expect in a man.

:26:51.:26:55.

He was just a piece of bread, as they'd say in Italy.

:26:56.:26:59.

He was just lovely and loved by everybody.

:27:00.:27:02.

That's wrong. A man has to have a bit of ruthlessness.

:27:03.:27:05.

Went he went to America, he was just eaten alive.

:27:06.:27:11.

Eaten alive? Yes. He was eaten alive by America.

:27:12.:27:15.

All these women and the booze, the lot.

:27:16.:27:18.

Did he want to go back the last time? He would crave it.

:27:19.:27:24.

Like a man with drugs, he just craved for more and more.

:27:25.:27:28.

When he came back to Wales, I used to forbid him to go.

:27:29.:27:33.

I did everything to persuade him not to go.

:27:34.:27:37.

But he was completely stuck on it. He couldn't resist anymore.

:27:38.:27:43.

but he was the one who asked Brinnin to get more engagements.

:27:44.:27:50.

I thought Brinnin was luring him, but it was really Dylan.

:27:51.:27:54.

I blamed, I think I blamed Brinnin wrongly.

:27:55.:27:59.

Although, in the beginning, it was Brinnin who suggested all this.

:28:00.:28:04.

It was said you were jealous of his success out there.

:28:05.:28:08.

I probably was. I wouldn't have admitted it then.

:28:09.:28:12.

But naturally, I'd have preferred to have had the success myself.

:28:13.:28:16.

In fact, I never went to his readings, which is very suspicious.

:28:17.:28:22.

It is rather boring to listen to poetry reading,

:28:23.:28:26.

but I think there must be more to it than that.

:28:27.:28:30.

What I hated most was all these young girls and students

:28:31.:28:37.

and screaming at him as though he was a pop singer.

:28:38.:28:44.

In the universities, I didn't mind it.

:28:45.:28:49.

Can you remember much about that traumatic experience of his death

:28:50.:28:58.

when you went across there and collapsed?

:28:59.:29:01.

I can remember some pretty awful things about myself.

:29:02.:29:10.

I can remember being drunk on the plane.

:29:11.:29:14.

I remember the farewell lunch they gave me in that lobster place.

:29:15.:29:22.

It was the last thing thinking of Dylan dying there.

:29:23.:29:29.

It was just like a celebrating party.

:29:30.:29:32.

They were kind of making merry and drinking.

:29:33.:29:42.

They pushed me on the plane eventually.

:29:43.:29:45.

I found a place on the plane where there was a little bar.

:29:46.:29:50.

I didn't know it existed, but I found it.

:29:51.:29:53.

I drank a lot of whisky on the plane.

:29:54.:29:57.

When I arrived, I must have been pretty dead drunk.

:29:58.:30:01.

Finally, they conducted me to the hospital.

:30:02.:30:04.

They kind of pushed me through because I had precedence.

:30:05.:30:10.

Then I saw Dylan in the oxygen tent and they left me there.

:30:11.:30:15.

I really didn't know what to do at all...

:30:16.:30:22.

I just sat on the bed and started to roll a cigarette.

:30:23.:30:29.

There were all these other people behind the glass partition, gazing.

:30:30.:30:34.

Presumably, his other woman, I don't know if it was Sarah or Liz,

:30:35.:30:39.

Brinnin and a lot of fans were on the other side of the partition.

:30:40.:30:48.

I couldn't think what I ought to do to perform to them.

:30:49.:30:52.

The last thing I was thinking of was Dylan

:30:53.:30:55.

because he didn't seem to be there at all.

:30:56.:30:58.

As soon as I saw him, I knew he wasn't there.

:30:59.:31:01.

He was gone and he'd never come back.

:31:02.:31:08.

I couldn't regret marrying Dylan. It was an experience of a lifetime.

:31:09.:31:12.

He was a marvellous person. It's just I didn't want to share him.

:31:13.:31:17.

I couldn't have someone who's made for everybody all for myself.

:31:18.:32:14.

Fein is arrested tonight in connection with the murder of a

:32:15.:32:20.

woman killed by the IRA in 1972. We have the latest.

:32:21.:32:24.

How society is dividing into a vast number of have-nots and a very small

:32:25.:32:31.

number of have-lots, and lots, and lots. Why social inequality is

:32:32.:32:35.

predicted to get worse and what, if anything, we ought to do about it.

:32:36.:32:40.

We talk to the French economist who has written what's been

:32:41.:32:41.

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