Frost on Nixon


Frost on Nixon

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In the summer of 1977,

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a British television host with a reputation for acerbic wit,

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irreverent humour and searing interviews with society's villains

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scooped the media across the globe with a series of programmes that rocked the political world

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and had a ripple effect that went beyond its original expectations.

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David Frost's interviews with disgraced American President,

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Richard Nixon, three years after he resigned,

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were landmarks in political broadcasting.

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Eventually eliciting from the tough, legally-savvy politician

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a confession implicating himself in a major obstruction of justice.

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Of having, as he put it, let his friends down,

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let the country down and let the American people down.

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The programmes garnered sheaves of awards, even won plaudits from the grudging American press.

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In 2008, the one-to-one personality challenge between the two men, Frost and Nixon,

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was to be the subject of, first, a West End play

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and then a film starring Michael Sheen as Frost

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and Frank Langella as Nixon.

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The film won five Oscar nominations, including one for Langella's performance.

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I am here with Sir David Frost to find out the story behind the story.

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But first, the background.

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1972 was American election year.

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Nixon had already served a first term and was campaigning vigorously for a second.

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Then, in June '72, a few months before election day, police arrested five men

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breaking into the offices of the Democratic Party in the Watergate building in Washington.

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Their leader was James McCord, Security Director of Nixon's re-election campaign.

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Those further up in the Republican Party denied all knowledge.

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What I have said, that I have no prior knowledge of

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and no involvement in the electronic bugging of the Watergate,

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that's what I've said all along and it's still as true.

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But the suspicion grew that the Republican Party had been trying to bug the Democrats.

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But did Nixon himself know?

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Was he even in collusion?

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In the following months, two reporters from the Washington Post,

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Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, uncovered the fact that there was indeed a secret slush fund

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to finance spying operations on the Democratic Party.

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Nonetheless, Nixon went on to win the election by a landslide.

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The next four years will be the time

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that we will try to make ourselves worthy of this victory.

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He was a President with major achievements to his name.

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He had made a diplomatic breakthrough with his visit to China,

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an agreement on nuclear missile reduction with Russia,

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and was close to ending American involvement in Vietnam.

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Yet the Watergate scandal did not go away.

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There was strong evidence of an attempt to block the investigation and obstruct justice.

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Slowly, the complex network of intrigue was uncovered,

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finally implicating Richard Nixon himself.

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He resigned to avoid impeachment and retired in disgrace.

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As President, I must put the interests of America first.

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Therefore, I shall resign the Presidency

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effective at noon tomorrow.

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David Frost, what made you think you could scoop this story?

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What gave you the idea you could pull it off?

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I don't know.

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I think it started with the fact that he was clearly the most interesting

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and in some ways mysterious figure to interview in the world at that particular moment.

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The uniqueness of having to leave office but the drama that went with it.

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To unearth that story was just irresistible.

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And the fact that people said they thought it was impossible to do that made it even more irresistible.

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I can imagine that! Because you had a soaring career at that time,

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but you had really founded your career

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in the comedy boom of the early '60s.

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You were seen as a humourist.

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You had been the entertainment at the White House one Christmas for President Nixon.

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So it's possible to imagine he thought you were a lightweight?

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Well, it may have helped him say yes, perhaps if he did think that.

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But the thing is, by the time I had done the Nixon interviews...

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the film deliberately wanted to make me an underdog

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and implied that I'd done a couple of interviews in Australia before I interviewed Nixon.

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But by the time I interviewed Nixon,

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I had interviewed three or four thousand people by that time,

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so it was a regular stint for me, in one sense, although this was the biggest one.

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Tell me about the moment when you picked up the phone and started the process.

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I started the process, really,

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with a number of calls to people other than Nixon.

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The key moment was when Clay Felker,

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who created New York Magazine, great friend,

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said to me, Swifty Lazar is in the Hamptons this weekend on his way into New York,

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he's clearly been given an opportunity by Nixon now,

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they had announced the book and so on, to do television.

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So the first real call was really to Swifty Lazar, the legendary agent.

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It's a great name, Swifty Lazar!

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And that was because I think he got Humphrey Bogart three films in an afternoon

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or something like that, anyway.

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So you started asking around about what you would have to pay Nixon,

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because this was going to be a done deal, wasn't it?

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He wanted money. He needed money, didn't he?

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The interesting thing about that is I think he was at that moment

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very, very worried about money,

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and I think the reason he was worried about money,

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apart from general diffidence, sometimes, on those things,

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but the main reason was, he wasn't sure that some of the 30 people or whatever

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who had gone to jail, for short sentences but nevertheless gone to jail,

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for doing what he'd asked them to do, might sue him.

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And I think, in addition to anything else, he was worried about that.

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As it turned out, nobody did sue him.

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None of his loyal aides who went to prison for him did ever sue him,

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so his fears were not fulfilled, but that was his fear at the time.

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So you had to beat the networks at their own game,

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and the three networks were in play, weren't they?

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They all wanted to get this interview, and you were coming from behind, as it were.

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The networks were in two minds because they were worried about paying for an interview and so on,

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although, already, Lyndon Johnson had been paid for an interview

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when he left office by CBS,

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before this ever happened.

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Anyway, when it came through to the semi-finals, as it were,

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there was NBC and myself and NBC were offering at the end,

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I think, 400,000 for two hours,

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and I was offering 600,000 for six hours.

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So, hourly rate, I got a better deal.

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But on the other hand, the lesser amount of work would have been to take the NBC one.

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And the thing that everybody said, which was really interesting about this,

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was that, in fact, the NBC draft, which I'd obviously never seen,

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didn't stipulate, as we did,

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that a certain number of hours must be devoted to Watergate.

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The truth of the thing is, because he was quite illusive about sitting down to Watergate, even with us,

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with whom he had to, because of the contract,

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that if anyone had signed him up and not got Watergate in black and white,

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they would have a hell of a job of ever getting it.

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We'll come to the terms in a moment,

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but let's just deal with the fact that NBC might have bid

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and, indeed, they had the money.

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You bid more and you didn't have the money?

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David, one of the rules of media behaviour is that you don't go ahead

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with a programme until you know where the money's coming from!

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Well, that's the ideal, certainly, and that's normally what I would do.

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But in this particular case,

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I reckoned I could raise the money, and in the end I did.

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But it was quite hairy for a time in the middle,

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particularly when, early on, one of the promised backers withdrew.

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So it was quite hairy doing the interviews

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and then going off to the phone to get the rest of the money to continue with the interviews.

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And that was a bit of drama that I contained with myself and a few close colleagues.

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But it was quite tense.

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But how nail-biting was it?

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I mean, you were busy doing these heavy interviews all day long,

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and then heading off to try and raise money?

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Well, I've always believed that you've got to be versatile

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and that was a good example of being versatile, I guess.

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29 hours of interviewing.

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Was that difficult to establish from the start?

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And what made you think it would take 29 hours?

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-Yes, I don't think...

-It's longer than The Ring.

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I don't think anyone else has ever been interviewed for,

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more or less continuous, over four weeks.

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I think, first of all, the daunting size of the agenda to be covered.

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We were doing, basically, the Nixon presidency.

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We weren't doing the early years

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of Nixon or the later years of Nixon, or whatever.

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It was such a dauntingly large subject

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that I thought we needed 24 hours,

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and we...got the 24 hours, after a bit of pressure.

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But, basically, Swifty Lazar and Co were not really opposed to that.

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I mean, "Do we really need that? Wouldn't 16 be enough?"

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But I said, "No, 24."

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Now, when we actually got into the sessions,

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Nixon was not filibustering, but he was sometimes taking longer

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to come to the point than he might have done,

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so we were pleased with where we were getting to,

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but we were going to run out of time, eventually.

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And so I made a date to go and have lunch

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with Jack Brennan, his Chief of Staff -

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delightful guy. I mean, it was a great team

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Nixon had for those interviews.

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I mean, it was a team that, if they'd have been the closest to him

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in the White House, he might not have got into all this trouble.

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But anyway, so I had lunch with Jack Brennan

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and did a bit of a Nixon trick on him,

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saying we needed four more hours,

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but we didn't have any more money to go from 24 to 28.

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Jack, understandably, said,

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"Oh, I don't know whether we could do that with no more money

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"for an extra four hours. I mean..."

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And I said, "Because you know the thing is that,

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"if we can't get an extra four hours

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"we'll have to drop two or three subjects... Like China."

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BOTH CHUCKLE

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And that was perfect, and Jack saw his way to saying yes.

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29 hours of interviewing, David, is a marathon for the interviewer.

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I mean, did you go into training, did you stay fit? Did you exercise?

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I mean, how did you keep yourself on the ball?

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Who was it who said that, of her husband,

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"The only exercise he gets is jumping to conclusions."

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I don't know, but maybe there's something of that in it.

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But, basically, the thing was, it was on the very first day

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it really was borne in on me that the first of, at that stage,

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12 two-hour sessions,

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which became two and a half hours after this later conversation,

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and I suddenly realised that, forget for a minute about the 24 hours,

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I've never interviewed anyone continuously for TWO hours.

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It's quite a long time for a continuous non-stop interview,

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and I thought, "I'm about to do this 12 times over."

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I mean, that's when it really... it came home to me.

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But then the first session went, among other things, very quickly

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and one got into the pattern of doing two hours.

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"Doesn't everyone do two hours?" Of course, they never do.

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-It was like being an athlete?

-Yes.

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-You had to stay fit, not over-eat, not indulge.

-Oh, no.

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But you did go to parties and you did go to opening nights,

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even while you were doing these interviews?

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Yes, one was a premiere of a film I'd produced or co-produced,

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'but, basically, one didn't go to very many social occasions

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'in that period, from the last period

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'when one's there preparing it and doing it. I had a birthday'

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which I didn't suppress -

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I had a birthday party and things like that - but, basically, it was,

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I worked a damned sight harder than I ever did

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for my degree at Cambridge.

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Now, what was the Nixon team like?

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What sort of negotiations did you enter into with them

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before you started? Were they very exact?

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Well, we could do several hours on that,

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because there was a period when they were trying to hold off

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doing, first of all, because they didn't want to mess up or interfere

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with Haldeman and Ehrlichman's upcoming trials,

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so they said, "We can't talk about Watergate until after that,"

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and, of course, anything related to Watergate.

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They started listing a lot more things that they couldn't talk about

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until these trials were over and so on, and there was, in the end,

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there had to be a crunch and one had to say,

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"Well, look, you know, this is..." At one stage, Jack Brennan said,

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"If you can't agree with that delay for Watergate, or whatever,

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"the President would rather hand back the cheque

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"and forget the whole thing."

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And, you know, one had to say that, at that point, one was considerably

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committed and, you know, that he would have to probably look forward

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to a writ for about 20m, if he did that, you know, or more.

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Did you have to threaten that?

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Yes, yes, I did, but not in a threatening voice.

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-A charming voice.

-Just in a legally-threatening voice.

-Yes!

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So it really came to the edge, that they were on the point

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of withdrawing, because of the timing of the interviews?

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This is a very complicated thing, because there was the question

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of whether the interviews were going to effect the actual trials

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of Haldeman and Ehrlichman,

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and so that, while one's sympathetic with that to a certain extent,

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at the same time, we had these deadlines we had to meet and so on,

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and that they knew about and had signed on for and so on,

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so it would have been an outrageous breach of contract.

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And it didn't happen and, as ever happened with all in the period

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leading up to it with Richard Nixon, I said to one of his aides once,

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"Why is it that Richard Nixon, when he finally agrees to something,

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"has opposed it in such outright terms and so on,

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"that he doesn't get the gratitude for agreeing at the end,

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"because you've had such a struggle to get there, you know,

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"and he's being a fool to himself, as it were", and so on.

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"Well, that's the way he does things," they said.

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-And Nixon had said at the start, "no holds barred", hadn't he?

-Yes.

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-He had actually said that to you?

-Yes, yes.

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So you knew that it was combat to the death?

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Well, yes, it was going to be.

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Parts of it were certainly going... Obviously, the interesting thing

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about the interviews is there's the conflict about Watergate,

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and conflict about other subjects, the Houston Plan and so on,

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but, of course, there were also,

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in the 28 and three quarter hours, or whatever, there were also

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sessions on China, where instead of being an interrogator,

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one became, almost, Nixon's Boswell,

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you know, Boswell to his Johnson, really, because the full story

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of what happened in China was obviously not of adversary material.

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It was something we all wanted to know about and most people

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applauded as a good move, anyway, you know. So it was important to,

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as it always is with interviews, to get the right tone,

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and the tone on Watergate was different to the tone on China, for instance.

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Do you regret that the Watergate part of the story

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scooped the headlines and has made it famous,

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and the interesting developments over China, which you gave

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an excellent exposition of, have rather fallen by the wayside?

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Yes, I think that was probably predictable,

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in the sense that Watergate was the unsolved mystery

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of who was the villain. People thought they knew,

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but didn't know for sure, so I think that was always

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going to be more dramatic and there were things...

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One of the most memorable things in the interviews, about where I said,

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"So you mean that if the President really feels

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"it's an important enough issue, then he can do something illegal

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"if national interest dictates?"

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And Nixon said, "Well, if the President does it

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"that means it's not illegal."

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And, as he said those words -

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in a session before the Watergate session,

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not the Watergate session,

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about the Houston plan and so on - as he said those words,

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I mean, I just thought,

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"Those words are going to resound from these interviews almost as much

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"as the Watergate material." And, of course, that's true.

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That quote has been played back so many times.

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It was something that really particularly enraged

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one's American friends, you know, who feel very strongly

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about their constitution and it not being

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invaded by a president and so on, and so that was just one exchange.

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It wasn't as lengthy as Watergate, but it did have a tremendous impact.

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Did you, when he made that remark,

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which, as you rightly say, has become legendary,

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did you notice a flicker on his face -

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that he recognised that this was a hostage to fortune,

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he'll never be able to retract that sentence?

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I don't think so, I mean, that's a very interesting one.

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I did get the impression...

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the thing I thought when he said it was,

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that I must say something to try and get him to carry on -

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"This is gold, this is pure gold, even if he says nothing more.

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"But if I can get him to talk about it..."

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One, you try and look unsurprised by this remark, you know.

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You don't go, "Yes! You've said it!" So that you look unconcerned.

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And I said something like, "..as a matter of course."

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And he said, "Exactly." So you were just trying to,

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were trying to continue the golden trail a little bit longer.

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Let's talk about your behaviour,

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because this is where it gets really interesting, and when we see

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the interviews played, it will be interesting to watch his expressions,

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his body language and, indeed, yours, because this is gladiatorial stuff.

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You weren't so much an interviewer as a prosecutor, David.

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On Watergate, definitely, and, in fact, he himself in the interview

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says something to the effect about my being the prosecutor,

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and "You're doing it very well", and all of that.

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And him being the defence and so on, so that was clearly prosecution

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and defence, or at least, the first of the two days on Watergate was.

0:19:500:19:54

The second day, it's not right to say father-confessor,

0:19:540:19:57

-but I was there to push him and push him.

-Well, we'll get round to that.

0:19:570:20:01

Well, you certainly do that, but let's consider,

0:20:010:20:03

I mean, he has had a career as a lawyer and he's not called

0:20:030:20:08

Tricky Dicky for nothing. I mean, he was a very, very astute lawyer.

0:20:080:20:12

Did you come to recognise how brilliant a mind he had?

0:20:120:20:16

Yes, I think he did. It was very... And he'd been very smart

0:20:160:20:22

and he'd been taking no prisoners with various people in politics.

0:20:220:20:26

-Well, your approach was to do an enormous amount of research.

-Yes.

0:20:260:20:30

Very extensive research, over months, I think.

0:20:300:20:33

Yes, over a year, yeah. 12 months, yeah.

0:20:330:20:35

And, in fact, pieces of paper everywhere, ink everywhere,

0:20:350:20:39

-Caroline Cushing, your girlfriend...

-Including on my fingers, usually.

0:20:390:20:43

-She said you always had inky fingers everywhere.

-That's absolutely true.

0:20:430:20:47

Yes. Still do.

0:20:470:20:49

Still can't manage how you deal with a Pentel pen without getting it on.

0:20:490:20:55

Right, inky fingers and lots of research into the law.

0:20:550:20:58

We're going to look at a clip where Nixon tries to wrongfoot you

0:20:580:21:03

with his legal background and actually makes a fool of himself.

0:21:030:21:08

Now this is something that you had researched,

0:21:080:21:11

it's the statute on corruption, and just... You tell the story about

0:21:110:21:16

how you'd just researched it before you departed

0:21:160:21:19

to do the interview that day.

0:21:190:21:21

Well, it was. I raised it in the car, on the way down,

0:21:210:21:24

we all went down in the same car, and just said,

0:21:240:21:28

"Let's just go over that law and its implications again,

0:21:280:21:33

"let's just go through it."

0:21:330:21:35

And Bob and John and everyone, we went through it,

0:21:350:21:38

so it just so happened, magically,

0:21:380:21:41

that we'd discussed it just before the interview, on the very same day.

0:21:410:21:46

That very hour or so before the interview, you had spelled out

0:21:460:21:50

-what that statue was?

-Yes.

0:21:500:21:53

-And here is Nixon trying to wrongfoot you.

-Oh, right.

0:21:530:21:56

You used the term "obstruction of justice".

0:21:560:21:59

You perhaps have not read the statute,

0:21:590:22:01

-with regard to...obstruction of justice.

-No, I have.

0:22:010:22:07

Obstruction... Well, oh, I'm sorry,

0:22:070:22:09

of course, you probably have read it, but possibly you might have

0:22:090:22:14

missed it, because when I read it, many years ago,

0:22:140:22:17

er, perhaps when I was studying law,

0:22:170:22:21

although the statute didn't even exist then, because it is

0:22:210:22:25

'a relatively new statute, as you know.'

0:22:250:22:27

But in any event, when I read it in recent times,

0:22:270:22:31

I was not familiar with all of the implications of it.

0:22:310:22:35

The statute doesn't require just an act, the statute has

0:22:350:22:42

the specific provision, "..one must corruptly

0:22:420:22:47

-"impede a judicial manner".

-Well, a corrupt endeavour is enough.

0:22:470:22:54

A... All right. A conduct endeavour.

0:22:540:22:59

A corrupt endeavour, it was,

0:22:590:23:01

and you got the phrase right and he got it wrong.

0:23:010:23:03

I know. That was odd, wasn't it? Because that was a very legal thing

0:23:030:23:07

and he was so... I mean, and correcting himself

0:23:070:23:12

and trying to be gracious and, "Of course, you've probably read it",

0:23:120:23:15

and all of that, it was a... Yes,

0:23:150:23:17

in terms of when that's played, as it sometimes is, to an audience,

0:23:170:23:22

I mean, it is as hilarious a clip, in terms of the response

0:23:220:23:25

-it gets, as anything.

-Because it turned the argument against himself?

0:23:250:23:30

Yes. Absolutely.

0:23:300:23:31

Now, in this encounter, he's obviously playing

0:23:310:23:35

a legal game, too. What sort of tactics did he employ

0:23:350:23:38

and how soon did you recognise what he was doing?

0:23:380:23:41

Well, one thing that one feared, as a possibility, of course,

0:23:410:23:46

would be that he would filibust through and take an eternity

0:23:460:23:50

to answer simple questions and so on,

0:23:500:23:52

and he never did that, really. What he only did sometimes was

0:23:520:23:56

he would sometimes, instead of people answering the question

0:23:560:24:01

and then maybe going off in another direction towards the end,

0:24:010:24:04

he would often start at the other end and come round,

0:24:040:24:09

but all the while meaning to, and coming around to

0:24:090:24:12

answering the question at the end.

0:24:120:24:14

It was his way of doing things, sometimes. Oddly enough,

0:24:140:24:18

if you watch the first two lines of it, you would think

0:24:180:24:21

he was getting away and off the subject, and it was only

0:24:210:24:25

if you watch the whole answer, you see it came round at the end.

0:24:250:24:29

But he would answer the questions in the end,

0:24:290:24:34

and he wouldn't filibuster, but sometimes he did start

0:24:340:24:37

away from the point and come to the point.

0:24:370:24:39

If it had been a filibuster,

0:24:390:24:41

he would never have got to the point at all, at the end.

0:24:410:24:44

Your researchers began to be anxious that he was putting up

0:24:440:24:49

quite a good case, and that, in fact, there was just

0:24:490:24:51

a tiny risk that Nixon himself would come out of this well and would be

0:24:510:24:57

reinstated in popular reputation. Did you ever have that sense?

0:24:570:25:02

No, I didn't. About halfway through the interviews,

0:25:020:25:06

there was this question about whether we were being tough enough

0:25:060:25:12

on one or two subjects and, oddly enough,

0:25:120:25:14

the discussion actually took place

0:25:140:25:16

two or three days after the famous quote we were just talking about

0:25:160:25:21

from the Houston Plan - "..and if the President does it

0:25:210:25:25

"that means it's not illegal", that quote.

0:25:250:25:27

So, no, I didn't share it, but I shared a concern, obviously,

0:25:270:25:31

that we were going to score in the end, as it were,

0:25:310:25:35

over the whole scene and, obviously, in terms of emphasising

0:25:350:25:41

the underdog thing - and it's a bit dramatic,

0:25:410:25:46

the film rather goes over the top about the fact of their worries

0:25:460:25:49

after two or three sessions and so on - but, I mean, no,

0:25:490:25:53

I never thought we would fail, but despite talking about raising money

0:25:530:25:58

earlier, I mean, whatever money one had, one wouldn't necessarily

0:25:580:26:02

have put it all on the fact that we were going to prevail,

0:26:020:26:04

-but I thought we would.

-In your book, you talk about

0:26:040:26:07

having that encounter, when you said to your team,

0:26:070:26:10

-"Look, anyone who thinks we're going to fail had better leave now."

-Yes.

0:26:100:26:14

-And there was...

-Pause.

-..a pause.

0:26:140:26:16

-And nobody left!

-But it must have...

-Tense, as a moment.

0:26:170:26:20

Quite a tense moment. It's bad enough dealing with Nixon,

0:26:200:26:23

-than to have your own team feeling that you're being too soft.

-Yes.

0:26:230:26:26

What did you make of the allegation that you were too soft?

0:26:260:26:30

Well, I think it's the sort of thing that one's often felt over the years

0:26:300:26:38

since then, or occasionally felt it, in the sense that,

0:26:380:26:42

you mustn't confuse the style of voice with the intellectual content,

0:26:420:26:48

and that, whether it was Neil Kinnock or other famous interviews

0:26:480:26:53

with Margaret Thatcher and other people,

0:26:530:26:56

that I mean it's the content, the intellectual content, that matters,

0:26:560:26:59

and it's often better to keep it conversational,

0:26:590:27:02

rather than becoming hostile and aggressive,

0:27:020:27:05

because that can shut people up. Particularly, I guess,

0:27:050:27:08

if it's someone you've got to talk to for another 16 hours, you know.

0:27:080:27:11

So I wasn't worried about...

0:27:110:27:13

Of course, that was a point to be concerned about in terms of -

0:27:130:27:18

and to be relieved it hadn't happened at the end and so on -

0:27:180:27:22

but, basically, I always, somehow or other,

0:27:220:27:28

I thought we were going to get there.

0:27:280:27:30

But it's always been your technique to go in slowly, hasn't it,

0:27:300:27:33

and gently, and always being very polite,

0:27:330:27:35

but, nonetheless, with the killer punch coming?

0:27:350:27:38

That's the ideal. Yes, absolutely.

0:27:380:27:41

The words that John Smith, the former Labour leader,

0:27:410:27:44

in his last interview with us on Breakfast With Frost, said,

0:27:440:27:48

"You have a way of asking beguiling questions

0:27:480:27:52

"with potentially lethal consequences."

0:27:520:27:54

And I said, "Well, on balance, I'd be happy

0:27:540:27:57

-"to have that on my tombstone."

-29 hours of them.

-Yes!

0:27:570:28:01

There came a point at which, according to your book

0:28:010:28:03

and, indeed, in the film - I don't know whether it's true or not -

0:28:030:28:07

John Birt took you aside and said,

0:28:070:28:10

"You've got to start dominating the conversation now. You've got to move

0:28:100:28:15

"into a different style - physically dominate the interview."

0:28:150:28:19

-Yes.

-David, tell me how you physically dominate an interview?

0:28:190:28:23

I don't know exactly how one does it, but one knows afterwards

0:28:230:28:26

that one's done it. But he was absolutely right.

0:28:260:28:28

He'd seen it when we'd been doing the series together in England,

0:28:280:28:32

it had happened on occasions, and he felt that, as you say,

0:28:320:28:37

that, in fact, that you've got to take control of the conversation,

0:28:370:28:42

and part of that is a physical thing,

0:28:420:28:44

and it's obviously not as obvious as that, quite,

0:28:440:28:52

because that would be... But there's time for the person to be warned

0:28:520:28:56

as you make the journey across the room.

0:28:560:28:59

So it's not that, but it is a form of control,

0:28:590:29:03

in terms of a slightly more aggressive style of voice.

0:29:030:29:07

It's because so much, as you know, as an expert,

0:29:070:29:11

that interviewing, or so much of interviewing, is instinct,

0:29:110:29:15

and so a lot of that thing of taking physical control of the interview,

0:29:150:29:18

is instinct, you know.

0:29:180:29:20

Like with silences, for instance, in interviews,

0:29:200:29:23

that you've got to have the instinct.

0:29:230:29:25

There's a pause, a pregnant pause and, it's an instinct,

0:29:250:29:28

you've got to know either that the person, if you shut up,

0:29:280:29:32

will go much further, or that he's blind forgotten every word

0:29:320:29:35

he was about to say, and you'd better leap in

0:29:350:29:38

as fast as possible.

0:29:380:29:39

So it's instinct. So it's instinct with the physical control thing.

0:29:390:29:43

But I know what he means, and sometimes,

0:29:430:29:45

I can sometimes see an interview set up where the chairs

0:29:450:29:50

are just too far apart,

0:29:500:29:52

that you could never gain physical control of the interview.

0:29:520:29:57

But presumably Nixon's a huge man, isn't he?

0:29:570:29:59

A very broad, large man, and you're less broad and large,

0:29:590:30:04

-so it was quite a challenge?

-Thank you!

-But graceful.

0:30:040:30:08

We've got an example of your doing that,

0:30:080:30:11

and I wonder if you, perhaps when you've seen it,

0:30:110:30:13

you'll tell us exactly how you went into action

0:30:130:30:16

-to make that effective. Here it is.

-Oh, right.

0:30:160:30:20

'Six times I said,'

0:30:200:30:22

"You can't provide clemency." It's wrong, for sure.

0:30:220:30:24

I've never said though that you did provide clemency,

0:30:240:30:28

-nor was I talking about the long term.

-But my point is, without...

0:30:280:30:31

Let me quote to you then. I've been through the record,

0:30:310:30:35

I want to be totally fair

0:30:350:30:37

and let me read to you the last quote on the transcripts

0:30:370:30:39

that I can find about this matter.

0:30:390:30:41

You said, "Why didn't I go to the last one?"

0:30:410:30:44

I read 16 and I thought that was enough,

0:30:440:30:46

but we could have read many more, no doubt.

0:30:460:30:49

But the last thing in the transcripts

0:30:490:30:52

I can find about this subject was you talking on April 20th

0:30:520:30:58

and you were recollecting this meeting and you said that you said

0:30:580:31:03

to Dean, and to Haldeman, "Christ, turn over any cash we got."

0:31:030:31:08

That's YOUR recollection of the meeting, on April 20th,

0:31:080:31:11

when you didn't know you were on television.

0:31:110:31:14

-Look at all those gestures!

-Yes! I'm surprised.

0:31:140:31:17

Do you remember feeling, "I've got to really shout him down?"

0:31:170:31:21

No, I did, in the middle there, yes.

0:31:210:31:24

No, I wasn't consciously doing that, but I absolutely did

0:31:240:31:26

do that there, and yes, that was...

0:31:260:31:29

I think that the hand gesture was more me...

0:31:300:31:34

.doing the gesture for myself, really, rather than for Nixon.

0:31:360:31:40

I mean, a hand here was not going to be particularly fearsome.

0:31:400:31:44

I mean because it would never get...

0:31:440:31:47

Even if you've got a greater reach than Muhammad Ali.

0:31:470:31:51

I think that was just getting

0:31:510:31:55

a wee bit passionate myself

0:31:550:31:58

rather than probably trying to do that to Nixon.

0:31:580:32:01

But that was a good example of the cut and thrust

0:32:010:32:03

that there was often in the interviews.

0:32:030:32:06

But there was, and indeed he remained enormously in control of himself, didn't he?

0:32:060:32:12

He did occasionally get rather thoughtful, not surprisingly,

0:32:120:32:16

but he was a very controlled man.

0:32:160:32:18

Did you feel you ever got through to Nixon the human being?

0:32:180:32:22

Oddly enough it was at the end,

0:32:220:32:23

when we were leaving California, and so I went to take my leave

0:32:230:32:30

of Nixon to say thank you and so on, at Sacramento,

0:32:300:32:36

and Nixon said, "Hello, David".

0:32:360:32:41

Well, that was a first shock, because that was the first time in

0:32:410:32:45

the whole 28 and 3/4 hours that he'd used my Christian name.

0:32:450:32:52

-He'd always called you Mr Frost?

-Yes, Mr Frost.

0:32:520:32:55

So that was a surprise, but it was a cue for an incredible,

0:32:550:33:02

probably 20 minutes, when Nixon was, and this is a word

0:33:020:33:07

that I've never seen anyone use about him,

0:33:070:33:10

but he was on this occasion, carefree.

0:33:100:33:12

Nixon carefree, yes, Nixon carefree, for about 20 minutes,

0:33:120:33:16

and he welcomed us in and then he said to Caroline,

0:33:160:33:22

"Let me show you around,"

0:33:220:33:24

and took her along and around up to a room, and he said,

0:33:240:33:28

"Brezhnev used to sleep there.

0:33:280:33:32

"Great swordsman, of course, Brezhnev, and so on,

0:33:320:33:35

"but the Russians are, you know!" "Dostoevsky!"

0:33:350:33:39

And so around the place in that sense, and then came back into the main room

0:33:390:33:45

and said to his beloved, well, I suppose, Batman would be as good a word,

0:33:450:33:49

"Manolo, get out the caviar that Charles sent us for Christmas."

0:33:490:33:55

And interestingly he was still sending caviar,

0:33:550:34:00

and he was soon to leave office, of course, himself as well.

0:34:000:34:04

Anyway, he said, "Before you go, give us your impression

0:34:040:34:08

"of Henry Kissinger," so he did a hilarious impression of Henry Kissinger

0:34:080:34:12

and then he went off to get the caviar.

0:34:120:34:14

And it was just for about 20 minutes, Nixon as carefree,

0:34:140:34:19

and then after about 20 minutes, just because he was always affable,

0:34:190:34:25

he was not rude to people just as a point of nothing,

0:34:250:34:29

but these sort of transparent walls

0:34:290:34:35

went across and once more

0:34:350:34:39

he was still affable, but no longer intimate.

0:34:390:34:43

And that was an extraordinary glimpse of a Nixon

0:34:430:34:48

that you rarely saw.

0:34:480:34:50

Well, we get a glimpse of another Nixon, and probably

0:34:500:34:54

the true Nixon too, towards the end of the Watergate interviews

0:34:540:34:57

when you elicit from him what you had been hoping to hear all along.

0:34:570:35:02

Yes.

0:35:020:35:03

He speaks in the course of the interviews of being a Quaker,

0:35:030:35:06

and you yourself come from a Methodist background,

0:35:060:35:09

your father was a Methodist minister,

0:35:090:35:12

and I feel there's a great quality of the religious confession

0:35:120:35:15

about this. We're going to see an extract of how you went about it,

0:35:150:35:20

but I wonder whether you felt that you had reached

0:35:200:35:23

a confessional point?

0:35:230:35:24

Yes, perhaps confessional isn't right...

0:35:270:35:30

but when you... Very much...

0:35:300:35:32

We're talking morals here, aren't we?

0:35:320:35:34

Yes, and in terms of...

0:35:340:35:37

There was a real sense of...

0:35:370:35:40

not of religious faith,

0:35:400:35:44

but religious sensibility in this, yes, and I think that he was...

0:35:440:35:50

he wasn't...

0:35:500:35:52

Although he was certainly not a Catholic, but I mean that,

0:35:520:35:56

a sense of confession towards the end.

0:35:560:35:59

-And relieving himself of his guilt, to some extent?

-Yes.

0:35:590:36:04

I don't want to push the religious element too strongly,

0:36:040:36:07

but I think we can see that you have brought from him

0:36:070:36:11

the confession he thought he'd never make. Here it is.

0:36:110:36:15

'I would like to hear you say,'

0:36:160:36:18

I think the American people would like to hear you say, one is...

0:36:180:36:23

There was probably more

0:36:240:36:27

than mistakes,

0:36:270:36:30

there was wrongdoing, whether it was a crime or not, yes,

0:36:300:36:35

it may have been a crime too.

0:36:350:36:38

Secondly,

0:36:380:36:41

I did...

0:36:410:36:44

And I'm saying this without questioning the motives, right?

0:36:440:36:48

I did abuse the power I had as president,

0:36:480:36:51

or not fulfilled the totality of the oath of office,

0:36:510:36:56

that's the second thing.

0:36:560:36:58

And thirdly,

0:36:580:37:01

I put the American people through two years of needless agony

0:37:010:37:04

and I apologise for that.

0:37:040:37:07

And I say that,

0:37:070:37:09

you've explained your motives, I think those are the categories.

0:37:090:37:14

And I know how difficult it is for anyone, and most of all you,

0:37:140:37:17

but I think that people need to hear it,

0:37:170:37:21

and I think unless you say it,

0:37:210:37:24

you're going to be haunted for the rest of your life.

0:37:240:37:29

-Well, his face says it all, David.

-Yes.

0:37:290:37:33

Just watching that again,

0:37:330:37:34

and that sort of slight anguish throwing his head back,

0:37:340:37:38

and then of course the fact was that

0:37:380:37:42

I was waiting for him to respond,

0:37:420:37:44

and his first response was to say, as you know,

0:37:440:37:46

was to say, "Well, what word would you express?"

0:37:460:37:51

And that was really the most sort of

0:37:510:37:55

silence-grabbing moment that one experienced,

0:37:550:37:58

because suddenly one had, in a sense,

0:37:580:38:02

to formulate three points for him and so on.

0:38:020:38:07

And at the same time formulate them

0:38:070:38:10

in such a way that one avoided getting into words like crime

0:38:100:38:15

but using wrongdoing, and using these words

0:38:150:38:20

so as one kept with the kernel of what we were trying to say.

0:38:200:38:24

So after 29 hours, or something like,

0:38:240:38:27

you got to this point,

0:38:270:38:29

did you recognise the significance of it at the time?

0:38:290:38:32

Yes, I think one started to feel it in the last 20 minutes

0:38:320:38:36

as he addressed all of those three points that we just saw.

0:38:360:38:40

And, um...and yes, I think one was coming to that realisation

0:38:400:38:46

that this was really...keep...

0:38:460:38:49

or during that period, to keep it going,

0:38:490:38:52

to keep it moving on because there was more he had to say, one hoped.

0:38:520:38:57

And he did have more to say, so yes,

0:38:570:39:01

one did start to feel it towards the end, and afterwards there was...

0:39:010:39:05

It had been an extraordinary two and a half hour session or whatever,

0:39:080:39:12

and everybody there, really, our colleagues,

0:39:120:39:18

but his colleagues too, were knocked out by what they'd seen.

0:39:180:39:23

Did you ever feel any pity for him?

0:39:230:39:26

Well, it was very difficult to feel that for him at that time,

0:39:280:39:32

because the 30, or whatever it was, people who worked for him

0:39:320:39:35

who'd gone to jail because of what they did for him,

0:39:350:39:38

you know, and that made it sort of... The sympathy was split,

0:39:380:39:44

obviously, at the very least in that sense.

0:39:440:39:47

So 30 years later, that dialogue would be different

0:39:470:39:51

with nobody in jail and nobody had suffered for it,

0:39:510:39:54

but at the time it was very...

0:39:540:39:57

So one was able to feel a certain empathy

0:39:570:40:01

for this man who had so wanted to be great

0:40:010:40:06

and hadn't been, and so on. A certain empathy,

0:40:060:40:10

but not really a sympathy because of the people

0:40:100:40:14

who were casualties of his policies.

0:40:140:40:19

-And they make a film of it, they make a play about it.

-Yes.

0:40:190:40:23

And then they make a film of it.

0:40:230:40:24

You go to see the play, the audience falls silent as you enter

0:40:240:40:28

-the auditorium, and then they made a film.

-That's right.

0:40:280:40:31

Which garners huge, huge awards and nominations and so on.

0:40:310:40:34

What did you feel about the telling of the story

0:40:340:40:38

and the way that it was shown?

0:40:380:40:41

Were you conscious that Michael Sheen was at all like you?

0:40:410:40:46

Not particularly.

0:40:460:40:48

I remember after the thing, when the play had been announced,

0:40:480:40:53

and going to Broadway and then the film had been announced.

0:40:530:40:57

Michael Sheen was on my Al Jazeera programme and he said

0:40:570:41:02

"Yes, do you realise I'm going to be playing David Frost

0:41:020:41:09

"for the next 12 months," and I said "That's a coincidence, so am I!"

0:41:090:41:14

But he was a delight to get to know,

0:41:140:41:17

and I thought they did a great job with the film.

0:41:170:41:19

-Can we just clear up one or two delicate matters of...

-Why not!

0:41:190:41:22

Fictional licence. You did not pick up Caroline Cushing on the flight over to America.

0:41:220:41:28

No, no, it was in Monte Carlo that we first met,

0:41:280:41:33

but I guess at that time, when they were doing the play in London

0:41:330:41:38

with a limited budget, it was a bit easier to have two airline seats

0:41:380:41:42

than have a Monte Carlo ball at the sporting club in Monte Carlo.

0:41:420:41:48

Also, did Nixon remark on your shoes?

0:41:480:41:50

Yes, he did, strangely enough.

0:41:500:41:54

We were talking on the way there, talking about this problem

0:41:540:41:59

about Nixon for the... He believes you shouldn't do anything other than small talk

0:41:590:42:05

for the first five minutes and then get down to the business,

0:42:050:42:08

and so we were going down there and thinking what would be

0:42:080:42:12

the subject that would come up before the five minutes were up.

0:42:120:42:17

And on this particular occasion, I just happened to say,

0:42:170:42:20

"Well, he'll probably ask about something non-interesting like my shoes,

0:42:200:42:26

I mean and somebody said, "Yeah, probably,"

0:42:260:42:29

This was absolutely unlikely that a president, or a former president,

0:42:290:42:33

would make a comment about someone's shoes,

0:42:330:42:35

and we sat down before the interview and the first thing Nixon said was,

0:42:350:42:41

"Where did you get those shoes?"

0:42:410:42:43

And I said, "They're Italian." "Oh, really?"

0:42:430:42:46

David, to be serious, finally, was it the toughest job you ever did?

0:42:460:42:50

It was tough in terms of living up to the story that

0:42:530:42:59

one had to try and get out of this.

0:42:590:43:01

The high point of your career?

0:43:010:43:03

Difficult to think of one that's more so, I think.

0:43:030:43:06

I can think of...

0:43:060:43:09

No, in that sense it...

0:43:090:43:12

There's still no-one else who's ever talked to anyone for 28 hours!

0:43:120:43:17

So in that sense, there are people I've done

0:43:170:43:20

an hour's interview with that has been absolutely memorable

0:43:200:43:25

and so on, but not 28 and 3/4 hours obviously,

0:43:250:43:27

and not with quite such a historical climax to come to.

0:43:270:43:33

-But this is...

-So one can certainly say that this was the most...

0:43:330:43:36

the toughest 28 and 3/4 hours I ever did with anybody.

0:43:360:43:40

It's also a tribute to your great variety of skills as an interviewer,

0:43:400:43:45

not least in your capacity to stay silent for the appropriate moment,

0:43:450:43:49

and this is the climactic moment when you stay silent.

0:43:490:43:54

'I just can't stand seeing somebody else cry,'

0:43:560:44:00

and that ended it for me...

0:44:000:44:02

..and I just, well, I must say, I sort of cracked up,

0:44:040:44:08

started to cry,

0:44:080:44:10

pushed my chair back,

0:44:100:44:13

and then I blurted it out...

0:44:130:44:16

And I said, "I'm sorry...

0:44:160:44:20

"I just hope I haven't let you down."

0:44:200:44:23

Well, when I said, "I just hope I haven't let you down,"

0:44:250:44:29

'that said it all, I had.'

0:44:290:44:32

I let down my friends...

0:44:320:44:35

I let down...

0:44:350:44:38

..the country.

0:44:400:44:41

What did that moment feel like?

0:44:430:44:46

Extraordinary,

0:44:480:44:50

and one was not numb, but not numb at all,

0:44:500:44:55

but the impact of it was, well, as you mentioned just now,

0:44:570:45:01

it was very easy to stay silent when listening to that.

0:45:010:45:07

David Frost, thank you.

0:45:070:45:09

Thank you.

0:45:090:45:10

It was on the night of June 17th 1972

0:45:370:45:41

that five men were arrested breaking into

0:45:410:45:44

the Democratic National Committee Headquarters in Washington, DC.

0:45:440:45:48

It turned out later that the break-in had involved such key Nixon supporters

0:45:480:45:51

as Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy,

0:45:510:45:54

and had been planned by the President's own re-election committee

0:45:540:45:57

headed by former Attorney General John Mitchell

0:45:570:46:00

and his assistant Jeb Magruder.

0:46:000:46:03

Bob Haldeman, the President's Chief of Staff,

0:46:030:46:06

was with Mr Nixon in Florida when the break-in occurred.

0:46:060:46:09

They returned to the White House on June 19th

0:46:090:46:12

and they met on a number of occasions during the next few days.

0:46:120:46:16

Two meetings are regarded as key.

0:46:160:46:20

The first occurred on the morning of June 20th and included a discussion of Watergate.

0:46:200:46:25

A White House tape of that discussion

0:46:250:46:28

was later found to have been erased, the famous 18.5 minute gap.

0:46:280:46:33

The President met again with Haldeman on June 23.

0:46:330:46:37

In that conversation, Mr Nixon is told that the FBI

0:46:370:46:40

is moving into problem areas in its Watergate probe.

0:46:400:46:46

Haldeman suggests, and Nixon agrees, that the CIA be instructed

0:46:460:46:49

to ask the FBI not to proceed any further with its investigation of the burglary.

0:46:490:46:55

Mr President, to try and review your account of Watergate

0:46:560:47:01

in one programme is a daunting task,

0:47:010:47:04

but we'll press, first of all, through the sort of factual record

0:47:040:47:08

and the sequence of events

0:47:080:47:09

as concisely as we can to begin with.

0:47:090:47:12

Um... But just one brief preliminary question...

0:47:120:47:16

Reviewing now your conduct over the whole of the Watergate period,

0:47:180:47:23

with the additional perspective now, three years out of office and so on,

0:47:230:47:28

do you feel that you ever obstructed justice

0:47:280:47:31

or were part of a conspiracy to obstruct justice?

0:47:310:47:35

Well, in answer to that question,

0:47:360:47:38

I think that the best procedure would be for us to do

0:47:380:47:42

exactly what you're going to do in this programme,

0:47:420:47:45

to go through the whole record in which I will say what I did,

0:47:450:47:52

what my motives were,

0:47:520:47:55

and then I will give you my evaluation

0:47:550:48:01

as to whether those actions...

0:48:010:48:05

or anything I said, for that matter,

0:48:050:48:09

amounted to what you have called an obstruction of justice.

0:48:090:48:15

I will express an opinion on it,

0:48:150:48:17

but I think what we should do is to go over it, the whole matter,

0:48:170:48:22

so that our viewers will have an opportunity

0:48:220:48:25

to know what we are talking about,

0:48:250:48:27

so that in effect they, as they listen,

0:48:270:48:33

will be able to hear the facts and make up their own minds.

0:48:330:48:37

I'll express my own opinion, they may have a different opinion,

0:48:370:48:41

YOU may have a different opinion.

0:48:410:48:43

But that is really the best way to do it,

0:48:430:48:45

rather than to preclude it in advance and maybe prejudice their viewpoint.

0:48:450:48:49

I am very happy to do that, because I think the only way, really, to examine all these events

0:48:490:48:55

is on a blow-by-blow account of what occurred.

0:48:550:49:00

So, beginning with June 20 then,

0:49:020:49:04

what did Haldeman tell you during the 18.5 minute gap?

0:49:040:49:10

Haldeman's notes are the only recollection

0:49:120:49:15

I have of what he told me.

0:49:150:49:17

Haldeman was a very good note-taker,

0:49:170:49:20

because, of course, we've had other opportunities to look at his notes,

0:49:200:49:24

and he... He was making the notes for my presidential files.

0:49:240:49:27

The notes indicated...

0:49:270:49:28

PR offensive and blah, blah, blah.

0:49:280:49:30

That's right. Well, of course.

0:49:300:49:32

-Diversion.

-Well, you've asked me what it was,

0:49:320:49:35

my recollection was that the notes... Check the EOB

0:49:350:49:39

to see whether or not it's bugged. Obviously, I was concerned about

0:49:390:49:43

whether or not the other side was bugging us.

0:49:430:49:46

I went on to say, let's get a public relations offensive

0:49:460:49:50

on what the other side is doing in this area and so forth,

0:49:500:49:55

and, in effect, don't allow...

0:49:550:49:59

the...democratic opposition...

0:49:590:50:04

build this up into...basically, blow it up into a big, political issue,

0:50:040:50:11

those were the concerns expressed.

0:50:110:50:13

And I have no recollection of the conversation except that.

0:50:130:50:17

But as far as your general state of knowledge, that evening,

0:50:170:50:22

when you were talking with Chuck Colson on the evening of June 20th,

0:50:220:50:29

it suggests that from somewhere,

0:50:290:50:31

your knowledge has gone much further.

0:50:310:50:34

You say, "If we didn't know better,

0:50:340:50:37

"we'd have thought the whole thing had been deliberately botched".

0:50:370:50:40

Colson tells you, "Bob is pulling it all together,

0:50:400:50:45

"thus far, I think we've done the right things to date",

0:50:450:50:51

and he says, "Basically, they're all pretty hard line guys",

0:50:510:50:57

and you say, "You mean Hunt?"

0:50:570:50:59

And you say, "Of course, we're just going to leave this where it is with the Cubans,

0:50:590:51:04

"at times I just stonewall it". And you also say,

0:51:040:51:08

"We've got to have lawyers smart enough to have our people delay."

0:51:080:51:13

Now, somewhere, you were pretty well informed by that conversation on June 20th.

0:51:130:51:19

As far as my information on June 20th is concerned,

0:51:190:51:22

I had been informed with regard to...

0:51:220:51:29

the possibility of Hunt's involvement,

0:51:290:51:34

whether I knew on the 20th or the 21st or 22nd, I knew...

0:51:340:51:37

I learned in that period about the possibility of Liddy's involvement.

0:51:370:51:42

Of course I knew about the Cubans and McCord,

0:51:420:51:44

who were all picked up at the scene of the crime.

0:51:440:51:48

Now, you have read, here, excerpts out of a conversation with Colson,

0:51:480:51:54

and let me say, as far as what my motive was concerned -

0:51:540:51:58

and that's the important thing -

0:51:580:52:00

my motive was in everything I was saying,

0:52:000:52:04

or certainly thinking at the time,

0:52:040:52:08

was not to try to cover up...

0:52:080:52:15

a criminal action,

0:52:150:52:17

but to be sure...

0:52:170:52:21

that as far as any...

0:52:210:52:26

slipover,

0:52:260:52:27

or should I say "slopover", I think would be a better word,

0:52:270:52:31

any slopover in a way that would damage innocent people

0:52:310:52:37

or blow it into political proportions,

0:52:370:52:40

it was that that I certainly wanted to avoid.

0:52:400:52:43

So you invented the CIA thing on the 23rd as a cover?

0:52:430:52:47

No, now, let's use the word "cover-up", though,

0:52:470:52:53

in the sense that it should be used and should not be used.

0:52:530:52:57

If a cover-up is for the purpose of covering up criminal activities,

0:53:000:53:05

it is illegal.

0:53:050:53:07

If, however, a cover-up, as you have called it,

0:53:070:53:11

is for a motive that is not criminal,

0:53:110:53:17

that is something else again.

0:53:170:53:20

And my motive was not criminal.

0:53:200:53:22

I didn't believe that we were covering any criminal activities.

0:53:220:53:25

I didn't believe that John Mitchell was involved.

0:53:250:53:29

I didn't believe that, for that matter, anybody else was.

0:53:290:53:35

I was trying to contain it politically,

0:53:350:53:38

and that's a very different motive

0:53:380:53:41

from the motive of attempting to cover up

0:53:410:53:46

criminal activities of an individual.

0:53:460:53:49

And so there was no cover-up of any criminal activities,

0:53:490:53:52

that was not my motive.

0:53:520:53:54

But surely in all you've just said,

0:53:540:53:56

you have proved exactly that that was the case,

0:53:560:53:59

that there was a cover-up of criminal activity.

0:53:590:54:02

Because you've already said, and the record shows,

0:54:020:54:05

that you knew that Hunt and Liddy were involved.

0:54:050:54:09

You'd been told that Hunt and Liddy were involved.

0:54:090:54:12

At the moment when you told the CIA to tell the FBI to stop, period, as you put it,

0:54:120:54:18

at that point only five people had been arrested,

0:54:180:54:22

Liddy was not even under suspicion.

0:54:220:54:24

And so you knew in terms of intent,

0:54:240:54:26

and you knew in terms of foreseeable consequence,

0:54:260:54:29

that the result would be that in fact, criminals would be protected.

0:54:290:54:34

Hunt and Liddy, who were criminally liable, would be protected.

0:54:340:54:38

You knew about them. The whole statement says that we were going...

0:54:380:54:43

Haldeman says, "We don't want you to go any further on it,

0:54:430:54:46

"get them to stop, they don't need to pursue it, they've already got their case."

0:54:460:54:50

Walters notes that he said, "Five suspects had been arrested, this should be sufficient."

0:54:500:54:55

You said, "Tell them don't go any further into this case, period."

0:54:550:54:59

By definition, by what you've said and by what the record shows,

0:54:590:55:02

that per se was a conspiracy to obstruct justice

0:55:020:55:06

because you were limiting it to five people when,

0:55:060:55:09

even if we grant the point that you weren't sure about Mitchell,

0:55:090:55:13

you already knew about Hunt and Liddy and had talked about both.

0:55:130:55:17

-So, that is obstruction of justice.

-No, just a moment...

-Period.

0:55:170:55:20

That's your conclusion.

0:55:200:55:22

-It is.

-But now let's look at the facts.

0:55:220:55:24

The facts is that as far as Liddy was concerned,

0:55:240:55:28

what I knew was only...

0:55:280:55:33

the fact that he was the man on the committee,

0:55:330:55:38

who was in charge of intelligence operations.

0:55:380:55:42

As far as Hunt was concerned,

0:55:420:55:44

and if you read that tape, you will find

0:55:440:55:48

I told them to tell the FBI -

0:55:480:55:52

they didn't know apparently - and the CIA, that Hunt was involved.

0:55:520:55:58

And so there wasn't any attempt to keep them from knowing

0:55:580:56:04

that Hunt was involved.

0:56:040:56:05

The other important point to bear in mind

0:56:050:56:08

when you ask what happened and so forth

0:56:080:56:10

is that what happened two weeks later.

0:56:100:56:12

Two weeks later, when I was here in San Clemente,

0:56:120:56:18

I called Pat Grey, the then FBI director,

0:56:180:56:22

on the phone to congratulate the FBI

0:56:220:56:25

on a very successful operation they had in apprehending some hijackers

0:56:250:56:30

in San Francisco or some place abroad.

0:56:300:56:32

He then brought up the subject of the Watergate investigation.

0:56:320:56:37

He said that there are some people around you

0:56:370:56:42

who are mortally wounding you,

0:56:420:56:45

or might mortally wound you,

0:56:450:56:46

because they're trying to restrict this investigation.

0:56:460:56:49

And I said, "Well, have you talked to Walters about this matter?"

0:56:490:56:53

And I said, "Yes." I said, "Does he agree?"

0:56:530:56:56

He said, "Yes." I said, "Well, Pat..."

0:56:560:57:00

I had known him very well, of course, from over the years,

0:57:000:57:03

I did call him by his first name.

0:57:030:57:06

I said, "Pat, you go right ahead with your investigation."

0:57:060:57:10

He has so testified, and he did go ahead with the investigation.

0:57:100:57:15

Yes, but the point is that obstruction of justice

0:57:150:57:18

is obstruction of justice if it's for a minute or five minutes,

0:57:180:57:21

much less for the period June 23rd to July 5th,

0:57:210:57:24

when I think was when he talked to Walters and decided to go ahead,

0:57:240:57:27

the day before he spoke to you on July 6th.

0:57:270:57:29

It's obstruction of justice for however long a period, isn't it?

0:57:290:57:34

And also, it's no defence to say that the plan failed,

0:57:340:57:37

that the CIA didn't go along with it,

0:57:370:57:40

refused to go along with it, said it was transparent.

0:57:400:57:43

I mean, if I try and rob a bank and fail, that's no defence.

0:57:430:57:46

I still tried to rob a bank.

0:57:460:57:48

I would say you still tried to obstruct justice and succeeded for that period.

0:57:480:57:52

-He's testified.

-Now, that's...

-They didn't interview Agario, didn't do all of this.

0:57:520:57:56

And so I would have said it was a successful attempt

0:57:560:57:59

to obstruct justice for that brief period.

0:57:590:58:01

Now, just a moment. You're again making the case,

0:58:010:58:04

which, of course, is your responsibility

0:58:040:58:07

as the attorney for the prosecution.

0:58:070:58:09

Let me make the case as it should be made,

0:58:090:58:12

even if I were not the one who was involved, for the defence.

0:58:120:58:17

The case for the defence here is this.

0:58:170:58:20

You use the term obstruction of justice.

0:58:200:58:23

You perhaps have not read the statute with regard to...

0:58:230:58:26

respect, er, er... obstruction of justice.

0:58:260:58:30

-Well, I have.

-Obstruction... Oh, I'm sorry,

0:58:300:58:33

of course you probably have read it,

0:58:330:58:35

but possibly you might have missed it,

0:58:350:58:38

because when I read it many years ago in...

0:58:380:58:42

..perhaps when I was studying law,

0:58:440:58:46

although the statute didn't even exist then

0:58:460:58:48

because it's a relatively new statute, as you know.

0:58:480:58:51

Er...but in any event, when I read it even in recent times,

0:58:510:58:55

I was not familiar with all of the implications of it.

0:58:550:58:59

The statute doesn't require just an act,

0:58:590:59:03

the statute has the specific provision,

0:59:030:59:08

one must corruptly...

0:59:080:59:11

..impede a judicial...

0:59:130:59:16

Well, a corrupt endeavour is enough.

0:59:160:59:19

A corr... All right, must...conduct an endeavour.

0:59:190:59:23

Corrupt intent, but it must be corrupt,

0:59:230:59:27

and that gets to the point of motive.

0:59:270:59:30

One must have a corrupt motive.

0:59:300:59:33

Now, I did not have a corrupt motive.

0:59:330:59:36

-You were...

-My motive was pure political containment,

0:59:360:59:40

and political containment is not a corrupt motive.

0:59:400:59:43

-But...

-If so, for example, President Truman would have been impeached.

0:59:430:59:46

Yeah, but the point is that...

0:59:460:59:48

Motive can be helpful when intent is not clear.

0:59:480:59:51

Your intent is absolutely clear, it's stated again,

0:59:510:59:54

stop this investigation here, period.

0:59:540:59:57

The foreseeable, inevitable consequence if you'd been successful

0:59:571:00:01

would have been that Hunt and Liddy would not have been brought to justice.

1:00:011:00:05

How can that not be a conspiracy to obstruct justice?

1:00:051:00:10

No, wait a minute, stop the...

1:00:101:00:12

You would have protected Hunt and Liddy from guilt.

1:00:121:00:14

Stop the investigation. Er...

1:00:141:00:18

You still have to get back to the point that I have made previously,

1:00:181:00:24

that my concern there, which was conveyed to them,

1:00:241:00:30

and the decision then was in their hands,

1:00:301:00:33

my concern was having the investigation

1:00:331:00:36

spread further than it needed to.

1:00:361:00:39

-Well, spread...

-And as far as that was concerned

1:00:391:00:42

I don't believe...

1:00:421:00:45

As I said, we turned over the fact that we knew that Hunt was involved,

1:00:451:00:49

the possibility that Liddy was involved,

1:00:491:00:53

but under the circumstances...

1:00:531:00:55

-You didn't turn that over.

-What?

-You didn't turn that over.

1:00:551:00:58

-No, no, we turned over the fact that Hunt...

-You never told anyone about Liddy.

1:00:581:01:01

No, not at that point.

1:01:011:01:03

Now, after the Gray... after the Gray conversation,

1:01:031:01:09

the cover-up went on.

1:01:091:01:12

You would say, I think, that you were not aware of it.

1:01:121:01:16

I, I think, was arguing that you were a part of it

1:01:161:01:19

as a result of the June 23rd conversations,

1:01:191:01:22

but you would say that you were...

1:01:221:01:24

I was a part of it as a result of the June 23rd conversations?

1:01:241:01:28

-Yes.

-After July 6th when I talked to Gray?

1:01:281:01:31

I would have said that you joined a conspiracy which you therefore never left.

1:01:311:01:35

No. Well, then, we totally disagree on that.

1:01:351:01:37

But I mean, those are the two positions.

1:01:371:01:40

Now, you, in fact, however, would say

1:01:401:01:42

that you first learned of the cover-up on March 21st.

1:01:421:01:47

Is that right?

1:01:471:01:48

On March 21st was the date when I was first informed

1:01:511:01:55

of the fact, the important fact to me in that conversation,

1:01:551:02:01

was of the blackmail threat that was being made by Howard Hunt

1:02:011:02:06

who was one of the Watergate participants,

1:02:061:02:10

but not about Watergate.

1:02:101:02:13

So, during the period between those two dates,

1:02:131:02:18

between the end of June, beginning of July and March 21st,

1:02:181:02:23

while lots of elements of the cover-up as we now know were continuing,

1:02:231:02:28

were you ever made aware of any of them?

1:02:281:02:32

No, I don't know what you're referring to.

1:02:321:02:35

Well, for instance, your personal lawyer, Herbert Kalmbach,

1:02:351:02:40

coming to Washington to start the raising of 219,000 of hush money,

1:02:401:02:47

approved by Haldeman and Ehrlichman,

1:02:471:02:49

they went ahead without clearing it with you?

1:02:491:02:52

That was one of the statements that I've made,

1:02:521:02:55

which after all the checking we can possibly do,

1:02:551:03:00

and we checked with Haldeman, we checked with Ehrlichman...

1:03:001:03:04

I wondered, for example, if I had been informed,

1:03:041:03:06

if I had been informed that money was being raised

1:03:061:03:09

for humanitarian purposes to help these people with their defence,

1:03:091:03:12

I would certainly have approved it.

1:03:121:03:14

If I had been told that the purpose of the money was to raise it

1:03:141:03:17

for the purpose of keeping them quiet,

1:03:171:03:19

-I would have been disapproving.

-But...

1:03:191:03:21

The truth of the matter is that I was not told.

1:03:211:03:27

I did not learn of it until the March period.

1:03:271:03:29

But in that case, if that was the first occasion,

1:03:291:03:33

why did you say in, um... such strong terms

1:03:331:03:39

to Colson on February 14th,

1:03:391:03:43

which is more than a month before,

1:03:431:03:46

you said to him, "The cover-up is the main ingredients.

1:03:461:03:49

"That's where we've got to cut our losses, my losses are to be cut,

1:03:491:03:53

"the President's loss has got to be cut on the cover-up deal.

1:03:531:03:57

-Why did I say that?

-February 14th.

1:03:591:04:02

Because I read the American papers.

1:04:021:04:04

And in January, the stories that came up,

1:04:041:04:08

not just from The Washington Post,

1:04:081:04:11

the famous series by some unnamed correspondents

1:04:111:04:16

who have written a best-selling book since then.

1:04:161:04:19

But The New York Times, the networks and so forth

1:04:191:04:23

were talking about hush money.

1:04:231:04:25

They were talking about clemency for cover-up and all the rest.

1:04:251:04:31

It was that that I was referring to at that point.

1:04:311:04:34

I was referring to the fact that there was a lot of talk about cover-up,

1:04:341:04:38

and that this must be avoided at all cost.

1:04:381:04:41

But there's one very clear self-contained quote,

1:04:411:04:46

and I read the whole of this conversation of February 13th

1:04:461:04:49

which I don't think has ever been published.

1:04:491:04:52

And there was one very clear quote in it that I thought was...

1:04:521:04:56

It hasn't been published, you say?

1:04:561:04:57

I think it's available to anybody who consults the records, but...

1:04:571:05:01

-Oh, I see.

-But people don't consult all the records necessarily.

1:05:011:05:04

-I just wondered if we'd seen it.

-Well, I'm sure you have, yes.

1:05:041:05:08

Where the President says this on February 13th.

1:05:081:05:12

"When I'm speaking about..." This is to Colson.

1:05:121:05:16

"When I'm speaking about Watergate,

1:05:161:05:19

"though that's the whole point of the election,

1:05:191:05:22

"this tremendous investigation rests...

1:05:221:05:26

"unless one of the seven begins to talk.

1:05:261:05:31

"That's the problem."

1:05:311:05:33

Now, in that remark, it seems to me

1:05:331:05:36

that someone running the cover-up

1:05:361:05:38

couldn't have expressed it more clearly than that, could they?

1:05:381:05:41

What do we mean by, "One of the seven beginning to talk"?

1:05:431:05:47

How many times do I have to tell you

1:05:471:05:49

that as far as these seven were concerned,

1:05:491:05:52

the concern...that we had,

1:05:521:05:58

certainly that I had,

1:05:581:06:00

was that men who worked in this kind of covert activity,

1:06:001:06:08

men who, of course, realise it's a dangerous activity to work in,

1:06:081:06:14

particularly since it involves illegal entry,

1:06:141:06:17

that once they're apprehended, they are likely to say anything.

1:06:171:06:23

And the question was, I didn't know of anybody at that point,

1:06:231:06:28

nobody on the White House staff,

1:06:281:06:30

not John Mitchell, anybody else,

1:06:301:06:32

that I believed was involved, criminally.

1:06:321:06:40

But on the other hand,

1:06:401:06:43

I certainly could believe that a man like Howard Hunt,

1:06:431:06:47

who was a prolific book writer,

1:06:471:06:50

or any one of the others, under the pressures of the moment,

1:06:501:06:54

could have started blowing

1:06:541:06:57

and putting out all sorts of stories to embarrass the administration.

1:06:571:07:02

And as it later turned out, in Hunt's case,

1:07:021:07:05

to blackmail the President to provide clemency,

1:07:051:07:09

or to provide money, or both.

1:07:091:07:12

I still just think, though, that one has to, uh...

1:07:131:07:18

go contrary to the normal usage of language

1:07:181:07:22

of almost 10,000 gangster movies,

1:07:221:07:27

to interpret, "This tremendous investigation rests

1:07:271:07:32

"unless one of the seven begins to talk,

1:07:321:07:35

"that's the problem,"

1:07:351:07:37

as anything other than some sort of conspiracy

1:07:371:07:40

to stop him talking about something damaging to the person speaking.

1:07:401:07:43

Well, you can state your conclusion and I've stated my view.

1:07:431:07:47

-That's true.

-So, now we go on with the rest of it.

1:07:471:07:49

What President Nixon knew of the cover-up before March 21st

1:07:491:07:54

is disputed, but there is no dispute that on March 21st

1:07:541:07:58

John Dean did lay out

1:07:581:08:00

many of the key elements of the cover-up for the President.

1:08:001:08:03

Dean recited the history of the break-in

1:08:031:08:05

and listed the criminal liability of top presidential aides

1:08:051:08:09

like Haldeman and Ehrlichman and Dean himself

1:08:091:08:12

for actions which followed the burglary.

1:08:121:08:15

Dean told the President that hundreds of thousands of dollars had been paid

1:08:151:08:19

to keep the Watergate burglars silent through their January trial.

1:08:191:08:23

He said further that with sentencing only two days away,

1:08:231:08:27

Howard Hunt was now demanding a payment of 120,000

1:08:271:08:32

for continued silence,

1:08:321:08:33

and Dean suggested that the price tag for blackmail

1:08:331:08:36

could total 1 million.

1:08:361:08:39

The period following the meeting on March 21st up to April 30th,

1:08:391:08:44

when Haldeman and Ehrlichman, resigned is crucial.

1:08:441:08:48

The President would later claim that he'd worked to get the truth out during this period.

1:08:481:08:53

His critics would claim that he continued to cover it up.

1:08:531:08:57

Looking back on the record now

1:08:571:08:59

of that conversation, as I'm sure you've done,

1:08:591:09:03

in addition to the overall details which we'll come to in a minute,

1:09:031:09:07

bearing in mind that a payment probably was set in motion

1:09:071:09:11

prior to the meeting and was certainly not completed

1:09:111:09:15

until late the evening of the meeting,

1:09:151:09:18

um...wouldn't you say that the record of the meeting

1:09:181:09:22

does show that you endorsed or ratified what was going on

1:09:221:09:27

with regard to the payment to Hunt?

1:09:271:09:30

No, the record doesn't show that at all.

1:09:311:09:34

In fact, the record, actually, is ambiguous, er...

1:09:341:09:39

..until you get to the end, and then it's quite clear.

1:09:421:09:45

And what I said...later in the day,

1:09:451:09:50

and what I said the following day,

1:09:501:09:53

shows what the facts really are

1:09:531:09:59

and completely contradicts the fact...the point that has been made.

1:09:591:10:04

And again, here's a case where Mr Jaworski in his book

1:10:041:10:07

conveniently overlooks what actually was done,

1:10:071:10:11

and what I did say the following day, as well as...

1:10:111:10:16

..other aspects of it.

1:10:181:10:21

Let me say I did consider the payment of 120,000

1:10:211:10:25

to Hunt's lawyer and to Hunt,

1:10:251:10:29

for his attorney's fees and for support.

1:10:291:10:33

I considered it not because Hunt was going to blow,

1:10:331:10:38

using our gangster language here, on Watergate.

1:10:381:10:43

But, because as the record clearly shows Dean says,

1:10:431:10:46

it isn't about Watergate but it's going to talk about

1:10:461:10:50

some of the things he's done for Ehrlichman.

1:10:501:10:53

As far as the payment of the money was concerned,

1:10:531:10:56

when the total record is read,

1:10:561:11:00

you will find that it seems to end on a basis which is indecisive,

1:11:001:11:07

but I clearly remember, and you undoubtedly have it in your notes,

1:11:071:11:12

my saying that the White House can't do it, I think was my last words,

1:11:121:11:18

-because I had gone through the whole scenario with the...

-But...

1:11:181:11:23

I laid it out, I said, "Look, what would it co...

1:11:231:11:26

"I mean, when you're talking about all of these people,

1:11:261:11:29

"what would it cost to take care of it for..."

1:11:291:11:31

-Well, no, I mean, I...

-They talked about a million dollars,

1:11:311:11:35

and I said, "You could raise the money,

1:11:351:11:37

"but doesn't it finally get down to a question of clemency?"

1:11:371:11:42

And he said, "Yes." I said, "Well, you can't provide clemency,

1:11:421:11:48

"and that would be wrong, for sure."

1:11:481:11:50

Now, if clemency is the bottom line,

1:11:501:11:53

then providing the money isn't going to make any sense.

1:11:531:11:56

But when we talk about the money,

1:11:561:11:58

the 120,000 demand that in fact he got 75,000 of that evening,

1:11:581:12:03

bearing in mind what you were saying earlier about reading that,

1:12:031:12:09

the overall context to the conversation,

1:12:091:12:11

is there any doubt when one reads,

1:12:111:12:16

reading the whole conversation...

1:12:161:12:19

One, you could get a million dollars and you could get it in cash, I know where it could be gotten.

1:12:191:12:24

Two, your major guy to keep under control is Hunt.

1:12:241:12:28

Three, don't you have to handle Hunt's financial situation?

1:12:281:12:32

Four, let me put it frankly,

1:12:321:12:34

I wonder if that doesn't have to be continued.

1:12:341:12:37

Five, get the million bucks, it would seem to me that would be worthwhile.

1:12:371:12:41

Six, don't you agree that you'd better get the Hunt thing?

1:12:411:12:44

Seven, that's worth it and that's buying time on.

1:12:441:12:48

Eight, we should buy the time on that, as I pointed out to John.

1:12:481:12:52

Nine, Hunt has at least got to know this before he's sentenced.

1:12:521:12:55

Ten, first you've got the Hunt problem, that ought to be handled.

1:12:551:12:59

11, the money can be provided, Mitchell could provide the way to deliver it, see what I mean?

1:12:591:13:04

12, but let's come back to the money,

1:13:041:13:07

they were off on something else here, bored to death with the continual references to money.

1:13:071:13:12

A million dollars and so forth and so on,

1:13:121:13:14

let me say that I think you could get that in cash.

1:13:141:13:16

13, that's why your immediate thing,

1:13:161:13:18

you've got no choice with Hunt but the 120 or whatever it is, right?

1:13:181:13:22

14, would you agree that this is a buy time thing?

1:13:221:13:25

You'd better damned well get that done but fast.

1:13:251:13:28

15, who's going to talk to him? Colson?

1:13:281:13:30

16, we have no choice, and so on.

1:13:301:13:33

-Now, reading as you've requested the thing...

-Yes, all right, fine.

1:13:331:13:36

Let me just stop you right there. Right there.

1:13:361:13:39

You're doing something here which I am not doing,

1:13:391:13:41

and I will not do throughout these broadcasts.

1:13:411:13:44

You have every right to. You are reading there out of context,

1:13:441:13:48

out of order, because I have read this

1:13:481:13:52

-and I know it better than you do.

-I'm sure.

1:13:521:13:54

I should know it better because I was there.

1:13:541:13:57

It's no reflection on you, you know it better than anybody else I know,

1:13:571:14:00

and you're doing it very well.

1:14:001:14:03

But I am not going to sit here and read the thing back to you.

1:14:031:14:06

I could have notes here. As you know, I participated

1:14:061:14:08

on all of these broadcasts without a note in front of me.

1:14:081:14:12

I've done it all from recollection. I may have made some mistakes.

1:14:121:14:15

You certainly have seen it and I agree, but it's your life we're talking about.

1:14:151:14:19

In this instance, the very last thing you read,

1:14:191:14:23

do you ever have any choice with Hunt?

1:14:231:14:26

Why didn't you read the next sentence?

1:14:281:14:30

-Why did you leave it off?

-Carry it on.

1:14:301:14:32

No, no, the reason... The next sentence says,

1:14:321:14:36

because I remember that so well,

1:14:361:14:39

but you never have a choice with Hunt.

1:14:391:14:42

Do you ever have one rhetorically?

1:14:421:14:45

You never have a choice with Hunt,

1:14:451:14:47

because when you finally come down to it, it gets down to clemency.

1:14:471:14:52

Now, why, after all of that horror story, and it was...

1:14:531:14:58

I mean, even considering that must horrify people.

1:14:581:15:01

Why would you consider paying money to somebody

1:15:011:15:03

who's blackmailing the White House?

1:15:031:15:05

I've tried to give you my reasons.

1:15:051:15:07

I was concerned about what he would do.

1:15:071:15:09

But my point is, after that, why not?

1:15:091:15:12

Why not you do what was not done by Mr Jaworski in his book,

1:15:121:15:18

what was not done by Mr Jaworski

1:15:181:15:20

before the Senate Judiciary Committee?

1:15:201:15:22

Read the last sentence, the last sentence which says,

1:15:221:15:26

"After that, you never have any choice with Hunt,"

1:15:261:15:29

because it finally comes down to clemency,

1:15:291:15:32

and I said six times in that conversation.

1:15:321:15:35

You didn't read that in your ten things.

1:15:351:15:37

Six times I said, "You can't provide clemency. It's wrong, for sure."

1:15:371:15:42

I never said there that you did provide clemency.

1:15:421:15:45

-Nor was I talking about the long-term...

-But my point is...my point is...

1:15:451:15:49

-Let me quote...

-My point is...

1:15:491:15:50

Let me quote to you... I've been through the record, I want to be totally fair,

1:15:501:15:54

and let me read to you the last quote on the transcripts

1:15:541:15:58

that I can find about this matter, then.

1:15:581:16:00

-You said, "Why didn't I go?" to the last one?

-Sure.

1:16:001:16:02

I read 16 and I thought that was enough,

1:16:021:16:05

but we could have read many more, no doubt.

1:16:051:16:07

But the last thing in the transcripts

1:16:071:16:10

I can find about this subject was you talking on April 20th,

1:16:101:16:16

and you were recollecting this meeting

1:16:161:16:18

and you said that you said to Dean and to Haldeman,

1:16:181:16:22

"Christ, turn over any cash we got."

1:16:221:16:25

That's YOUR recollection of the meeting,

1:16:251:16:28

on April 20th, when you didn't know you were on television.

1:16:281:16:31

Of course I didn't know I was on television.

1:16:311:16:34

On April 20th, it could well have been my recollection.

1:16:341:16:37

But my point is...

1:16:371:16:39

..I wonder why, again,

1:16:411:16:44

we haven't followed up with what happened after the meeting.

1:16:441:16:47

Let me tell you what happened after the meeting.

1:16:471:16:51

And you are, incidentally, very fair to point out,

1:16:511:16:54

and the record clearly shows,

1:16:541:16:57

that Dean did not follow up in any way on this.

1:16:571:17:01

The payment that was made -

1:17:021:17:04

Dean didn't know it, I didn't know it, nobody else knew it -

1:17:041:17:07

apparently was being made contemporaneously that day

1:17:071:17:10

through another source.

1:17:101:17:12

But the next morning, Mitchell told Haldeman that it had been paid,

1:17:121:17:16

and in a later transcript, you agree with Haldeman that he told you.

1:17:161:17:20

You say, "Yes, you reported that to me."

1:17:201:17:23

Yes. I understand.

1:17:231:17:24

-Let me point...

-You were very soon aware it had gone through.

1:17:241:17:27

That's right, but my point is,

1:17:271:17:30

the question we have is whether or not the payment was made...

1:17:301:17:35

..as a result of a direction given by the President for that purpose.

1:17:361:17:39

And the point is, it was not,

1:17:411:17:43

and the point is that the next morning

1:17:431:17:46

you talk about the conversation, and here again...

1:17:461:17:49

You probably don't have it on your notes here,

1:17:491:17:52

but on the 22nd, I raised the whole question of payments

1:17:521:17:57

and I said... And I'm compressing it all

1:17:571:18:00

so that we don't take too much of our time on this.

1:18:001:18:02

..I said, as far as these fellows in jail are concerned,

1:18:021:18:07

you can help them for humanitarian reasons,

1:18:071:18:10

but you can't pay...

1:18:101:18:12

but that Hunt thing goes too far.

1:18:121:18:15

That's just damn blackmail.

1:18:151:18:18

It would have been damn blackmail if Dean had done it.

1:18:181:18:22

Now, that's in the record,

1:18:221:18:24

and that's certainly an indication that it wasn't paid.

1:18:241:18:27

But later on that day, at some point,

1:18:271:18:29

according to your later words to Haldeman,

1:18:291:18:32

you were told that it HAD been paid.

1:18:321:18:34

That... I...I agree...

1:18:341:18:37

that I was told that it had been paid.

1:18:371:18:39

But what I am saying here

1:18:391:18:42

is that the charge has been made that I directed it

1:18:421:18:45

and that it was paid as a result of what I...

1:18:451:18:48

..er...

1:18:491:18:51

said at that meeting.

1:18:511:18:53

That charge is not true

1:18:531:18:56

and it's proved by the tapes, which in so many cases can be damaging -

1:18:561:19:01

in this case, they're helping.

1:19:011:19:02

There's two things to be said to that.

1:19:021:19:05

One is, I think that the...the...

1:19:051:19:09

My reading of the tapes tells me,

1:19:091:19:11

trying to read it in an open-minded way,

1:19:111:19:13

that...that the writing, not just between the lines

1:19:131:19:18

but on so many of the lines, as I quoted,

1:19:181:19:20

is very, very clear that you were, in fact,

1:19:201:19:22

endorsing at least the short-term solution

1:19:221:19:25

of paying this sum of money to buy time.

1:19:251:19:27

That would be my reading of it.

1:19:271:19:29

But the other point to be said is,

1:19:291:19:33

here's Dean talking about this hush money for Hunt,

1:19:331:19:38

-talking about blackmail...

-Mm-hm.

1:19:381:19:40

..and all of that, I would say that you endorsed or ratified it,

1:19:401:19:43

-but let's leave that on one side...

-I didn't endorse or ratify.

1:19:431:19:47

Why didn't you stop it?

1:19:471:19:49

Because at that point...

1:19:491:19:52

..I had nothing...

1:19:531:19:56

..to...no knowledge of the fact that it WAS going to be paid,

1:19:571:20:01

I'd had no knowledge of the fact that...

1:20:011:20:05

what you have mentioned in the transcript of the next day,

1:20:051:20:09

where Mitchell said he thought it had been taken care of.

1:20:091:20:12

I think that was what the words were, words to that affect.

1:20:121:20:16

I wasn't there. I don't remember what he said.

1:20:161:20:18

That was only reported to me.

1:20:181:20:21

The point that I make is this.

1:20:211:20:23

It's possible...

1:20:231:20:26

it's a mistake that I didn't stop it.

1:20:261:20:28

The point that I make is that I did consider it.

1:20:281:20:31

I've told you that I considered it.

1:20:311:20:33

I considered it for reasons that I thought were very good ones.

1:20:331:20:37

I would not consider it for the other reasons

1:20:371:20:43

which would have been, in my view, bad ones.

1:20:431:20:45

But that night, though, the night of the 21st,

1:20:451:20:49

I mean, in the conversation with Colson after you'd been exchanging dialogue

1:20:491:20:53

about getting off the reservation and so on,

1:20:531:20:56

Colson said to you something about the fact that

1:20:561:20:58

it's the stuff AFTER the cover-up.

1:20:581:21:00

"I don't care about the people involved in the cover-up,

1:21:001:21:03

"it's the stuff after that's dangerous,

1:21:031:21:05

"Dean and other things, and the things that have been done."

1:21:051:21:09

And you said, as I'm sure you know,

1:21:091:21:12

"You mean, with regard to the defendants.

1:21:121:21:14

"Of course that was... That had to be done."

1:21:141:21:18

Brackets, laughs, whatever that means.

1:21:181:21:20

But, I mean, so that night you were saying that had to be done,

1:21:201:21:24

you were realising that doing something for the defendants

1:21:241:21:27

was a necessity?

1:21:271:21:29

No, I don't interpret that that way at all,

1:21:291:21:32

-I...I can't recall...

-How do you interpret it?

1:21:321:21:35

I can't recall that conversation

1:21:351:21:37

and I can't vouch for the accuracy of the transcription on that,

1:21:371:21:42

but I do say...

1:21:421:21:44

It's an exhibit at the Watergate trial.

1:21:441:21:47

The tapes that have been made public, on the 22nd,

1:21:471:21:53

with regard to my...

1:21:531:21:54

and the one on the 21st as well,

1:21:541:21:57

with regard to the whole payments problem,

1:21:571:22:00

I think are very clear with regard to my attitude.

1:22:001:22:03

But on the short-term point, that was an exhibit

1:22:031:22:06

and part of the basic file at the trial

1:22:061:22:10

was that conversation, Colson saying,

1:22:101:22:12

"It's the stuff after that's dangerous,"

1:22:121:22:14

and you saying, "You mean, with regard to the defendants.

1:22:141:22:17

"Of course that was... That had to be done." Brackets, laughs.

1:22:171:22:21

-I mean, that's absolutely on the record and authenticated and played publicly.

-Yes.

1:22:211:22:26

Well, I can't interpret it at this time.

1:22:261:22:28

One of the other things that people find...

1:22:281:22:33

very difficult to take

1:22:331:22:36

in the Oval Office, on March 21st,

1:22:361:22:39

is the...is the coaching that you gave Dean and Haldeman

1:22:391:22:45

on how to deal with a grand jury without getting caught

1:22:451:22:49

and saying that perjury is a tough rap to prove, as you'd said earlier,

1:22:491:22:53

just be damned sure you say,

1:22:531:22:55

"I don't remember.

1:22:551:22:57

"I can't recall".

1:22:581:23:00

Is that the sort of conversation that ought to have been going on in the Oval Office?

1:23:021:23:06

I think that kind of advice is proper advice for...one who,

1:23:071:23:15

as I was at that time,

1:23:151:23:17

beginning to put myself in the position

1:23:171:23:20

of attorney for the defence,

1:23:201:23:23

er...

1:23:231:23:24

something that I wish I hadn't... had the...

1:23:241:23:27

felt I had the responsibility to do.

1:23:271:23:31

But I would like the opportunity, when the question arises,

1:23:311:23:35

to tell you why I felt as deeply as I did on that point.

1:23:351:23:38

Er...

1:23:381:23:40

Every lawyer,

1:23:401:23:42

when he talks to a witness who's going before a grand jury,

1:23:421:23:46

says, "Be sure that you don't volunteer anything,

1:23:461:23:49

"be sure if you have any question about anything,

1:23:491:23:51

"say that you don't recollect, be sure that everything...

1:23:511:23:56

"that you state only the facts that you're absolutely sure of".

1:23:561:24:00

Now, on the other hand,

1:24:001:24:02

I didn't tell them to say don't forget if you do remember.

1:24:021:24:07

That then would be suborning perjury.

1:24:071:24:09

-But the...

-And I did not say that.

1:24:091:24:11

One of the things you repeated many times,

1:24:111:24:16

but I suppose most memorably,

1:24:161:24:19

or most clearly, on...

1:24:191:24:21

August...15th 1973, you said...

1:24:211:24:26

.."If anyone at the White House or high up in my campaign

1:24:281:24:33

"had been involved in wrongdoing of any kind,

1:24:331:24:36

"I wanted the White House to take the lead in making that known.

1:24:361:24:41

"On March 21st, I instructed Dean to write a complete report

1:24:411:24:47

"of all that he knew on the entire Watergate matter."

1:24:471:24:52

Now, when one looks through the record of what had gone on

1:24:521:24:56

just before and after March 21st,

1:24:561:25:00

on March 17th, the written statement from Dean,

1:25:001:25:06

"You asked for a self-serving goddamned statement

1:25:061:25:10

"denying culpability of principle figures,"

1:25:101:25:13

when he told you that the original Liddy plan had involved bugging,

1:25:131:25:17

you told him to omit that fact in his document

1:25:171:25:20

and state it was for...

1:25:201:25:22

the plan was for a totally legal intelligence operation.

1:25:221:25:25

March 20th, as I'm sure you know, you said,

1:25:251:25:27

you want a complete statement but make it very incomplete.

1:25:271:25:32

On March 21st, after his revelations to you, you say,

1:25:321:25:36

"Understand, I don't want to get all that goddamned specific,"

1:25:361:25:40

and Ehrlichman and you when you're talking on the 22nd,

1:25:401:25:43

and he's talking of the Dean report,

1:25:431:25:45

he says, "And the report says nobody was involved,"

1:25:451:25:50

and there's several other quotes to that effect.

1:25:501:25:52

Was that...? The Dean report that you described,

1:25:521:25:57

it wasn't the same as what you described on August 15th, was it?

1:25:571:26:00

Well, what you're leaving out,

1:26:001:26:02

which is in that same tape that you've just quoted from,

1:26:021:26:04

is a very, very significant statement.

1:26:041:26:06

I said that John Dean should make a report,

1:26:081:26:13

and I said, "We've..." or, "We have to have a statement,"

1:26:131:26:17

and then I went on to say,

1:26:171:26:19

"and if it opens doors, let it open doors."

1:26:191:26:23

-Now...

-Now, with regard to the report being complete but incomplete,

1:26:231:26:28

what I meant was this, very simply.

1:26:281:26:31

I meant that he should state what he was sure of, what he knew,

1:26:311:26:36

because one day, he would say one thing,

1:26:361:26:39

another day, he'd say something else.

1:26:391:26:41

I didn't want him to answer,

1:26:411:26:43

and you'll find that also on one of the tapes.

1:26:431:26:45

I said, "Don't go into every charge that has been made.

1:26:451:26:49

"Go into only what you know."

1:26:491:26:51

And particularly go in hard on the fact

1:26:511:26:55

which he had consistently repeated over and over again -

1:26:551:27:00

no-one in the White House is involved,

1:27:001:27:03

that's what I wanted him to do.

1:27:031:27:05

But then you have a discussion

1:27:051:27:06

in the meeting with Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell and Dean

1:27:061:27:09

where you're deciding what the policy's going to be.

1:27:091:27:12

Is it going to be a hang-out, ie, is it going to be the whole of the truth,

1:27:121:27:16

and in the end, it's decided that it's going to be -

1:27:161:27:19

one of the great phrases of Watergate -

1:27:191:27:21

"a modified, limited hang-out",

1:27:211:27:23

which is why I suggest the other quotes that I've quoted to you are decisive.

1:27:231:27:27

And then Ehrlichman goes on to say,

1:27:271:27:29

"I'm looking at the future..."

1:27:291:27:31

And now we already know it's a modified, limited hang-out,

1:27:311:27:34

and you can't have a modified, limited version of the truth.

1:27:341:27:37

It's not going to be the whole of the truth.

1:27:371:27:39

"I am looking at the future,

1:27:391:27:41

"assuming some corner of this thing comes unstuck at some time.

1:27:411:27:45

"You..." That's you.

1:27:451:27:46

"..are in a position to say,

1:27:461:27:48

"'Look, that document I published is the document I relied on,

1:27:481:27:52

"'that is the report I relied on.'"

1:27:521:27:55

And you respond, "That's right."

1:27:551:27:58

Now, you've decided the documents are going to be modified,

1:27:581:28:01

it's going to be limited,

1:28:011:28:03

and then you're going to rely on that document,

1:28:031:28:06

and so you're going to be able to blame it on Dean,

1:28:061:28:08

and it seems to me that that is consistent

1:28:081:28:10

with all the quotes that I have quoted

1:28:101:28:13

and not the one door quote that you've quoted.

1:28:131:28:16

That's your opinion and I have my opinion.

1:28:161:28:20

Dean was sent to write a report, he worked on it,

1:28:201:28:24

and he certainly would have remembered a phrase that was,

1:28:241:28:31

let me say,

1:28:311:28:33

a lot more easy to understand than "modified hang-out",

1:28:331:28:38

or whatever Ehrlichman said.

1:28:381:28:40

He would have remembered, "If it opens doors, it opens doors."

1:28:401:28:44

I meant by that I was prepared to hear the worst as well as the good.

1:28:441:28:50

What I don't understand about... March 21st is that

1:28:501:28:57

I still don't know why you didn't pick up the phone

1:28:571:29:02

and tell the cops.

1:29:021:29:05

I still don't know, when you found out

1:29:051:29:07

about the things that Haldeman and Ehrlichman had done,

1:29:071:29:10

that there is no evidence anywhere of a rebuke,

1:29:101:29:14

but only of scenarios and excuses, et cetera.

1:29:141:29:20

Nowhere do you say, "We must get this information

1:29:201:29:24

"direct to whoever it is, the head of the justice department,

1:29:241:29:29

"criminal investigation or whatever".

1:29:291:29:31

And nowhere do you say to Haldeman and Ehrlichman,

1:29:311:29:36

"This is disgraceful conduct".

1:29:361:29:37

And Haldeman admits a lot of it the next day,

1:29:371:29:40

so you're not relying on Dean.

1:29:401:29:42

"You're fired".

1:29:421:29:43

-Well, could I take my time now to...to address that question?

-Mm.

1:29:441:29:51

I think it will be very useful

1:29:511:29:54

that you know what I was going through.

1:29:541:29:57

Er...

1:29:571:29:58

It wasn't a very easy time.

1:29:581:30:00

Er...

1:30:001:30:02

I think my daughter Trisha once said that...

1:30:031:30:07

..er...

1:30:081:30:09

there really wasn't a happy time...

1:30:091:30:14

in the White House, except in a personal sense...

1:30:141:30:17

er...

1:30:171:30:19

after April 30th, when Haldeman and Ehrlichman left.

1:30:191:30:22

You know, it's rather difficult to tell you,

1:30:221:30:26

four years later, how you felt,

1:30:261:30:29

but I think you'd like to know...

1:30:291:30:31

something new.

1:30:311:30:32

You see...

1:30:361:30:37

..I had been through a very difficult period

1:30:391:30:44

when President Eisenhower had the Adams problem.

1:30:441:30:48

And I'll never forget the agony he went through.

1:30:501:30:54

Here was Adams, a man that had gone through the heart attack with him,

1:30:541:30:58

a man that had gone through the stroke with him,

1:30:581:31:00

a man that had gone through the ileitis with him,

1:31:001:31:03

a man who had been totally selfless but he was caught up in a web.

1:31:031:31:07

Guilty?

1:31:091:31:11

I don't know.

1:31:111:31:12

I consider Adams then to be an honest man in his heart,

1:31:121:31:18

he did have some misjudgement,

1:31:181:31:21

but in any event,

1:31:211:31:24

finally, Eisenhower decided...

1:31:241:31:27

..after months of indecision on it -

1:31:281:31:30

and he stood up for him in press conferences over and over again,

1:31:301:31:33

and Haggerty did -

1:31:331:31:35

he decided he had to go.

1:31:351:31:36

You know who did it?

1:31:381:31:39

I did it.

1:31:391:31:41

Eisenhower called me in and asked me to talk to Sherm.

1:31:421:31:46

And so, here was the situation I was faced with.

1:31:471:31:52

Who's going to talk to these men?

1:31:541:31:57

What can we do about it?

1:31:571:31:59

Well, first, let me say that...

1:31:591:32:02

..I didn't have anybody that could talk to them but me.

1:32:041:32:07

I couldn't have Agnew talk to them...

1:32:071:32:09

..because they didn't get along well with him.

1:32:101:32:14

Bill Rogers wasn't happy with him either.

1:32:141:32:17

And so...not having a vice president or anybody else,

1:32:171:32:22

and Haldeman, my Chief of Staff, himself being involved,

1:32:221:32:26

the only man that could talk to him was me.

1:32:261:32:28

Now...

1:32:301:32:33

when I did talk to them,

1:32:331:32:35

it was one of the most...

1:32:351:32:37

..I would say, difficult periods,

1:32:421:32:44

..heart-rending...

1:32:471:32:49

Hard to use adjectives that are adequate.

1:32:491:32:52

..experiences of my life.

1:32:521:32:54

I never forget when I...

1:32:541:32:56

..heard...that on April 15th, from Henry Peterson,

1:32:571:33:02

that they ought to resign,

1:33:021:33:04

and Kleindienst thought they ought to resign,

1:33:041:33:07

and it took me two weeks...

1:33:071:33:08

I frankly agreed, incidentally, in my own mind that they had to go

1:33:081:33:12

on the basis of the evidence that had been presented.

1:33:121:33:15

But I didn't tell them that at that point.

1:33:151:33:18

I... When I say I agreed with it,

1:33:181:33:21

I didn't fully reach that conclusion,

1:33:211:33:25

because I still wanted to give them a chance to survive.

1:33:251:33:30

I didn't want to have them sacked as Eisenhower sacked Adams,

1:33:301:33:36

and Adams goes off to New Hampshire and runs a ski lodge

1:33:361:33:41

and was never prosecuted for anything.

1:33:411:33:43

Sacked because of misjudgement, yes,

1:33:431:33:48

mistakes, yes,

1:33:481:33:51

but...an illegal act

1:33:511:33:55

with an immoral, illegal motive,

1:33:551:34:00

no.

1:34:001:34:02

That's what I feel about Adams

1:34:021:34:04

that's the way I felt about these man at that time.

1:34:041:34:06

Now let me tell you what happened.

1:34:091:34:11

I remember Henry Peterson coming in on that Sunday afternoon.

1:34:131:34:17

Came in off his boat.

1:34:191:34:21

Er... He apologised for...

1:34:211:34:25

..being in his, er...

1:34:261:34:28

..sneakers and a pair of blue jeans and so forth,

1:34:291:34:34

but it was very important to give me the update

1:34:341:34:37

on what had...the developments that had occurred up till April 15th,.

1:34:371:34:41

And he said... He gave me a piece of paper

1:34:411:34:44

indicating that they had knowledge

1:34:441:34:46

of Haldeman's participation in the 350,000,

1:34:461:34:49

and they had knowledge of Ehrlichman's participation

1:34:491:34:52

in ordering... or what they indicated

1:34:521:34:54

that Ehrlichman had told Hunt to deep...

1:34:541:34:58

told the, er...

1:34:581:35:01

Gray to deep-six in papers and so forth and so on,

1:35:011:35:05

And he said, "Mr President, these men have got to resign,

1:35:051:35:09

"you've got to fire them."

1:35:091:35:11

And I said to him... I said, "But, Henry,

1:35:111:35:15

"I can't fire men simply on the basis of charges.

1:35:151:35:18

"They've got to have their day in court,

1:35:191:35:22

"they've got to have a chance to prove their innocence.

1:35:221:35:26

"I've got to see more than this

1:35:261:35:28

"because they claim that they're not guilty."

1:35:281:35:33

And...Henry Peterson,

1:35:341:35:38

very uncharacteristically,

1:35:381:35:40

because he's very respectful,

1:35:401:35:42

a Democrat, a career in civil service, splendid man...

1:35:421:35:45

..sat back in his chair and he said...

1:35:461:35:49

"You know, Mr President, what you've just said...

1:35:521:35:55

"..that you can't fire a man

1:35:571:35:59

"simply on the basis of charges that have been made

1:35:591:36:03

"or the fact that their continued service

1:36:031:36:06

"will be embarrassing to you...

1:36:061:36:08

"..that you've got to have proof before you do that,"

1:36:101:36:15

he said, "that speaks very well for you...

1:36:151:36:17

"..as a man.

1:36:181:36:20

"It doesn't speak well for you as a President.

1:36:201:36:23

And in retrospect, I guess he was right.

1:36:241:36:27

So, it took me two weeks to work it out.

1:36:311:36:34

Tortuous, long sessions.

1:36:341:36:36

You've got hours and hours of talks with them,

1:36:361:36:40

which they resisted, we don't need to go through all that agony.

1:36:401:36:43

Then I remember the day at Camp David when they came up.

1:36:431:36:46

Haldeman came in first, standing as he usually does...

1:36:481:36:51

..not a dramatic Nazi storm trooper

1:36:531:36:57

but just a decent, respected, crew cut guy -

1:36:571:37:00

that's the way Haldeman was.

1:37:001:37:01

Splendid man.

1:37:021:37:04

And he says, "I disagree with your decision totally."

1:37:061:37:10

He said, "I think, eventually,

1:37:111:37:13

"you're going to live to regret it, but I will."

1:37:131:37:16

Ehrlichman then came in.

1:37:171:37:20

I knew that Ehrlichman was bitter

1:37:201:37:22

because he felt very strongly he shouldn't resign,

1:37:221:37:25

although he'd even indicted that Haldeman should go

1:37:251:37:28

and maybe he should stay.

1:37:281:37:29

I took Ehrlichman out on the porch at Aspen.

1:37:311:37:34

You've never been to Aspen, I suppose?

1:37:341:37:37

That's the presidential cabin at Camp David,

1:37:371:37:41

and it was springtime, the tulips had just come out.

1:37:411:37:45

I'll never forget, we looked out across,

1:37:451:37:47

it was one of those gorgeous days when the...you know...

1:37:471:37:50

No clouds were on the mountain,

1:37:501:37:54

and I was pretty emotionally wrought up.

1:37:541:37:57

And I remember that I could just hardly bring myself

1:37:581:38:04

to tell Ehrlichman that he had to go,

1:38:041:38:07

because I knew he was going to resist.

1:38:071:38:10

I said, "You know, John, when I went to bed last night..."

1:38:101:38:14

He said, "I hoped..." I said, "..I hoped...

1:38:171:38:23

"I almost prayed I wouldn't wake up this morning."

1:38:231:38:25

Well, it's an emotional moment.

1:38:291:38:32

I think there were tears in our eyes, both of us.

1:38:321:38:35

He said, "Don't say that."

1:38:351:38:37

We went back in, they agreed to leave.

1:38:371:38:40

And so...

1:38:401:38:43

it was late, but I did it.

1:38:431:38:46

I cut off one arm, then cut off the other arm.

1:38:461:38:49

Now, I can be faulted, I recognise it.

1:38:511:38:55

Maybe I defended them too long. Maybe I tried to help them too much.

1:38:561:39:02

But I was concerned about them. I was concerned about their families.

1:39:031:39:08

I felt that they, in their hearts, felt they were not guilty.

1:39:081:39:12

I felt they ought to have a chance, at least,

1:39:121:39:15

to prove they were not guilty.

1:39:151:39:17

And I didn't want to be in the position

1:39:181:39:21

of just sawing them off in that way.

1:39:211:39:25

I suppose you could sum it all up

1:39:251:39:29

the way one of your British Prime Ministers summed it up, Gladstone,

1:39:291:39:34

when he said that the first... requirement for a Prime Minister

1:39:341:39:41

is to be a good butcher.

1:39:411:39:42

I think the great story, as far as summary of Watergate is concerned,

1:39:451:39:53

I did some of the big things rather well.

1:39:531:39:57

I screwed up terribly on what was a little thing and became a big thing,

1:39:571:40:03

but I will have to admit I wasn't a good butcher.

1:40:031:40:06

Would you go further than mistakes?

1:40:061:40:10

That you've explained how you got caught up in this thing,

1:40:101:40:14

you've explained your motives, I don't want to quibble about any of that.

1:40:141:40:20

But just coming to the sheer substance,

1:40:201:40:25

would you go further than mistakes?

1:40:251:40:27

The word...that seems not enough for people to understand.

1:40:271:40:33

What word would you express?

1:40:351:40:37

My goodness, that's...

1:40:421:40:43

I think there are three things, since you ask me,

1:40:431:40:48

I would like to hear you say,

1:40:481:40:50

I think the American people would like to hear you say.

1:40:501:40:53

One is...

1:40:531:40:55

..there was probably more than mistakes,

1:40:571:41:02

there was...wrongdoing.

1:41:021:41:05

Whether it was a crime or not, yes, it may have been a crime too.

1:41:051:41:09

Secondly...

1:41:101:41:13

I did,

1:41:131:41:16

and I'm saying this without questioning the motives, right?

1:41:161:41:19

I did abuse the power I had as President

1:41:191:41:23

or not fulfilled the totality of the oath of office.

1:41:231:41:28

That's the second thing.

1:41:281:41:30

And thirdly,

1:41:301:41:33

I put the American people through two years of needless agony and I apologise for that.

1:41:331:41:39

And I say that you've explained your motives, I think those are the categories.

1:41:391:41:46

And I know how difficult it is for anyone, and most of all you,

1:41:461:41:49

but I think that people need to hear it, and I think unless you say it,

1:41:491:41:56

you're going to be haunted for the rest of your life.

1:41:561:41:59

I well remember

1:42:021:42:03

that when I let Haldeman and Ehrlichman know

1:42:031:42:08

that they were to resign...

1:42:081:42:10

that I had Ray Price bring in the final draft of the speech

1:42:111:42:16

that I was to make the next night.

1:42:161:42:19

And I said to him, "Ray,"

1:42:191:42:21

I said, "if you think I ought to resign, put that in too,

1:42:211:42:24

"because I feel responsibly,"

1:42:241:42:28

even though I did not feel

1:42:281:42:30

that I had engaged in these activities consciously...

1:42:301:42:37

..insofar as the...

1:42:381:42:42

..knowledge of or participation in the break-in,

1:42:451:42:48

the approval of hush money,

1:42:481:42:50

the approval of clemency, et cetera,

1:42:501:42:54

the various charges that had been made.

1:42:541:42:56

Well, he didn't put it in.

1:42:561:43:00

And I must say that at that time

1:43:001:43:03

I seriously considered whether I shouldn't resign.

1:43:031:43:07

But on the other hand,

1:43:071:43:10

I feel that I owe it to history

1:43:101:43:14

to point out that from that time on April 30th

1:43:141:43:18

until I resigned on August 9th,

1:43:181:43:21

I did some things that were good for this country.

1:43:211:43:24

We had the second and third summits.

1:43:241:43:27

I think one of the major reasons I stayed in office

1:43:271:43:30

was my concern about keeping the China initiative,

1:43:301:43:36

the Soviet initiative, the Vietnam fragile peace agreement.

1:43:361:43:41

And then an added dividend,

1:43:411:43:45

the first breakthrough in moving toward not love,

1:43:451:43:51

but at least not war in the Mid East.

1:43:511:43:54

-You...

-And now, coming back to the whole point of...

1:43:541:43:58

..whether I should have resigned then,

1:44:011:44:04

and how I feel now...

1:44:041:44:07

Let me say I just didn't make mistakes in this period.

1:44:071:44:11

I think some of my mistakes I regret most deeply

1:44:111:44:15

came with the statements that I made afterwards.

1:44:151:44:19

Some of those statements were misleading.

1:44:191:44:25

Er...

1:44:251:44:27

I notice, for example, the editor of the Washington Post,

1:44:271:44:31

the managing editor, Ben Bradley, wrote a couple or three months ago

1:44:311:44:35

something to the effect that as far as his newspaper was concerned,

1:44:351:44:39

he said, "We don't print the truth, we print what we know,

1:44:391:44:45

"we print what people tells us...

1:44:451:44:48

.."and this means that we print lies."

1:44:511:44:55

I would say that the statements that I made afterwards

1:44:591:45:02

were, on the big issues, true,

1:45:021:45:06

that I was not involved in the matters that I have spoken about,

1:45:061:45:10

not involved in the break-in,

1:45:101:45:12

that I did not engage in and participate in

1:45:121:45:17

or approve the payment of money

1:45:171:45:19

or the authorisation of clemency,

1:45:191:45:20

which, of course, were the essential elements of the cover-up,

1:45:201:45:24

that was true.

1:45:241:45:26

But the statements were misleading

1:45:261:45:29

in exaggerating in that enormous political attack I was under.

1:45:291:45:35

It was a five-front war with a fifth column.

1:45:351:45:39

I had a partisan Senate committee staff,

1:45:421:45:46

we had a partisan Special Prosecutor staff,

1:45:461:45:52

we had a partisan media,

1:45:521:45:55

we had a partisan judiciary committee staff,

1:45:551:45:58

and the fifth column.

1:45:581:45:59

Under all these circumstances,

1:45:591:46:01

my reactions in some statements and press conversations after that,

1:46:011:46:07

I want to say right here and now,

1:46:071:46:10

I said things that were not true.

1:46:101:46:12

Most of them were fundamentally true on the big issues,

1:46:121:46:17

but without...

1:46:171:46:20

..going as far as I should have gone

1:46:211:46:25

in saying perhaps that I had considered other things

1:46:251:46:28

but had not done them.

1:46:281:46:29

-You mean the...

-For all those things, I have a very deep regret.

1:46:291:46:33

You got caught up in something and then it snowballed?

1:46:331:46:37

It snowballed, and it was my fault.

1:46:371:46:39

I'm not blaming anybody else.

1:46:411:46:43

-So...

-I am simply saying to you, that as far as I'm concerned...

1:46:431:46:46

..I not only regret it.

1:46:481:46:51

I indicated my own beliefs in this matter.

1:46:531:46:59

When I resigned, people didn't think it was enough to admit mistakes.

1:46:591:47:03

Fine. If they want me to get down and grovel on the floor, no, never.

1:47:031:47:11

Because I don't believe I should.

1:47:121:47:16

On the other hand, there are some friends who say,

1:47:181:47:22

just face them down, there is a conspiracy to get you.

1:47:221:47:25

There may have been.

1:47:251:47:27

I don't know what the CIA had to do...

1:47:271:47:29

Some of their shenanigans have yet to be told,

1:47:291:47:32

according to a book I read recently.

1:47:321:47:34

I don't know what was going on

1:47:341:47:37

in some Republican and Democratic circles,

1:47:371:47:41

as far as the so-called impeachment lobby was concerned.

1:47:411:47:45

However, I don't go with the idea

1:47:451:47:48

that what brought me down was a coup, a conspiracy,

1:47:481:47:53

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

1:47:531:47:55

I brought myself down.

1:47:571:47:58

I gave them a sword,

1:47:581:48:01

and they stuck it in and they twisted it with relish.

1:48:011:48:07

And I guess, if I'd been in their position,

1:48:071:48:09

I'd have done the same thing.

1:48:091:48:10

But what I'm really saying is that,

1:48:101:48:12

in addition to the untrue statements that you've mentioned...

1:48:121:48:16

..could you just say, with conviction,

1:48:181:48:21

not because I want you to say it,

1:48:211:48:25

that you did do some covering up?

1:48:251:48:29

We're not talking legalistically now, I just want the facts,

1:48:291:48:35

I mean, that you did do some covering up,

1:48:351:48:37

but there were a series of times when,

1:48:371:48:41

maybe overwhelmed by your loyalties or whatever else,

1:48:411:48:43

but as you look back at the record,

1:48:431:48:46

you behaved partially protecting your friends, or maybe yourself,

1:48:461:48:52

and that, in fact, you were, to put it at its most simple,

1:48:521:48:57

a part of a cover-up at times?

1:48:571:49:00

No, I again respectfully

1:49:001:49:03

will not quibble with you about the use of the terms.

1:49:031:49:09

However, before using the term, I think it's very important for me

1:49:091:49:15

to make clear what I did not do and what I did do,

1:49:151:49:17

and then I will answer your question quite directly.

1:49:171:49:20

I did not, in the first place,

1:49:221:49:27

commit the crime of obstruction of justice,

1:49:271:49:32

because I did not have the motive required

1:49:321:49:36

for the commission of that crime.

1:49:361:49:38

-We've had our discussion on that.

-The lawyers can argue that.

1:49:381:49:41

I did not commit, in my view, an impeachable offence.

1:49:411:49:45

Now, the house has ruled overwhelmingly that I did.

1:49:461:49:50

Of course, that was only an indictment

1:49:501:49:53

and it would have to be tried in the Senate.

1:49:531:49:55

I might have won, I might have lost.

1:49:551:49:57

But even if I'd won in the Senate by a vote or two,

1:49:571:50:00

I would have been crippled in any event for six months.

1:50:001:50:04

The country couldn't afford having the President in the dock

1:50:041:50:07

in the United States Senate.

1:50:071:50:09

And there can never be an impeachment in the future

1:50:091:50:12

in this country

1:50:121:50:13

without a President voluntarily impeaching himself.

1:50:131:50:17

I have impeached myself. That speaks for itself.

1:50:171:50:20

How do you mean, "I have impeached myself"?

1:50:201:50:22

By resigning. That was a voluntary impeachment.

1:50:221:50:26

And...

1:50:261:50:28

Now, what does that mean in terms of whether you're wanting me to say

1:50:301:50:36

that I participated in an illegal cover-up? No.

1:50:361:50:40

No. When you come to the period,

1:50:421:50:44

and this is the critical period,

1:50:441:50:48

but when you come to the period of March 21st on,

1:50:481:50:51

when Dean gave his legal opinion that certain things...

1:50:511:50:57

actions taken by Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell et cetera,

1:50:571:51:02

and even by himself,

1:51:021:51:05

amounted to illegal cover-up and so forth,

1:51:051:51:09

then I was in a very different position.

1:51:091:51:11

And during that period I will admit

1:51:111:51:15

that I started acting as lawyer for their defence,

1:51:151:51:19

I will admit that, acting as lawyer for their defence,

1:51:191:51:22

I was not prosecuting the case.

1:51:221:51:25

I will admit that during that period,

1:51:251:51:28

rather than acting primarily in my role

1:51:281:51:31

as the chief and law enforcement officer

1:51:311:51:33

of the United States of America,

1:51:331:51:37

or at least with responsibility for law enforcement,

1:51:371:51:39

because the Attorney General is the chief law enforcement officer.

1:51:391:51:43

But as the one with chief responsibility

1:51:431:51:45

for seeing the laws of the United States are enforced,

1:51:451:51:50

that I did not meet that responsibility.

1:51:501:51:53

And to the extent that I did not meet that responsibility,

1:51:531:51:57

to the extent that within the law,

1:51:571:52:00

and in some cases going right to the edge of the law,

1:52:001:52:04

in trying to advise Ehrlichman and Haldeman and all the rest

1:52:041:52:08

as to how best to present their cases,

1:52:081:52:11

because I thought they were legally innocent,

1:52:111:52:15

that I came to the edge.

1:52:151:52:17

And under the circumstances, I would have to say

1:52:181:52:22

that a reasonable person could call that a cover-up.

1:52:221:52:28

I didn't think of it as a cover-up.

1:52:281:52:31

I didn't intend it to cover up.

1:52:311:52:33

Let me say, if I intended to cover up,

1:52:331:52:36

believe me, I'd have done it.

1:52:361:52:38

You know how I could have done it so easily?

1:52:381:52:42

I could have done it immediately after the election

1:52:441:52:47

simply by giving clemency to everybody

1:52:471:52:50

and the whole thing would have gone away.

1:52:501:52:52

I couldn't do that because I said clemency was wrong.

1:52:521:52:59

But now we come down to the key point.

1:52:591:53:02

And let me answer it in my own way

1:53:021:53:04

about how do I feel about the American people? I mean...

1:53:041:53:07

How... Whether I should have resigned earlier.

1:53:091:53:14

Or what I should say to them now?

1:53:141:53:17

Well...

1:53:181:53:19

That forces me to rationalise now

1:53:191:53:24

and give you a carefully prepared and cropped statement.

1:53:241:53:28

I didn't expect this question, so I'm not going to give you that,

1:53:281:53:31

-but I can tell you this...

-Nor did I.

1:53:311:53:34

I can tell you this.

1:53:351:53:38

I think I said it all

1:53:381:53:40

in one of those moments that you're not thinking,

1:53:401:53:44

sometimes you say the things that are really in your heart,

1:53:441:53:47

when you're thinking in advance,

1:53:471:53:50

and you say things that, you know, are tailored to the audience.

1:53:501:53:54

I had a lot of difficult meetings those last days before I resigned.

1:53:551:54:00

And the most difficult one,

1:54:011:54:04

and the only one where...

1:54:041:54:06

..I broke into tears...

1:54:081:54:10

..frankly,

1:54:121:54:14

except for that very brief session with Ehrlichman up at Camp David.

1:54:141:54:19

It was the first time I cried since Eisenhower died.

1:54:191:54:21

I met with all of my key supporters

1:54:231:54:25

just the half hour before going on television.

1:54:251:54:28

For 25 minutes, we all sat around at the Oval Office,

1:54:291:54:34

men that I'd come to Congress with.

1:54:341:54:37

Democrats and Republicans, about half and half. Wonderful men.

1:54:381:54:43

And at the very end, after saying, well,

1:54:431:54:46

thank you for all your support during these tough years,

1:54:461:54:51

thank you particularly for what you've done

1:54:511:54:55

to help us end the draft, bring home the POWs

1:54:551:54:59

and have a chance for building a generation of peace,

1:54:591:55:04

which I can see the dream that I had possibly being shattered...

1:55:041:55:08

..and thank you for your friendship,

1:55:111:55:13

little acts of friendship over the years, you know,

1:55:131:55:16

remembering you with a birthday card and the rest...

1:55:161:55:19

Then suddenly you hadn't got much more to say

1:55:191:55:23

and half the people around the table were crying.

1:55:231:55:26

Les Arends, Illinois, bless him, he was just shaking, sobbing.

1:55:261:55:32

And I just can't stand seeing somebody else cry,

1:55:341:55:40

and that ended it for me.

1:55:401:55:41

And I just... Well, I must say, I sort of cracked up, started to cry,

1:55:431:55:49

pushed my chair back...

1:55:491:55:51

..and then I blurted it out.

1:55:521:55:54

And I said...

1:55:551:55:57

"I'm sorry. I just hope I haven't let you down."

1:55:571:56:01

When I said, "I just hope I haven't let you down,"

1:56:041:56:08

that said it all.

1:56:081:56:09

I had.

1:56:091:56:11

I let down my friends,

1:56:111:56:14

I let down...

1:56:141:56:16

..the country.

1:56:191:56:20

I let down our system of government

1:56:211:56:24

and the dreams of all those young people

1:56:241:56:26

that ought to get into government

1:56:261:56:29

but will think it's all too corrupt and the rest.

1:56:291:56:33

Most of all, I let down an opportunity

1:56:331:56:37

that I would have had for two-and-a-half more years

1:56:371:56:42

to proceed on great...projects

1:56:421:56:48

and programmes for building a lasting peace,

1:56:481:56:51

which had been my dream, as you know,

1:56:511:56:54

from our first interview in 1968,

1:56:541:56:56

before I had any thought I might even win that year.

1:56:561:56:59

I didn't tell you I didn't think I might win, but I wasn't sure.

1:56:591:57:03

Yep, I...

1:57:041:57:07

I let the American people down.

1:57:071:57:09

And I have to carry that burden with me for the rest of my life.

1:57:101:57:15

My political life is over.

1:57:151:57:17

I will never yet and never again

1:57:171:57:21

have an opportunity to serve in any official position.

1:57:211:57:25

Maybe I can give a little advice from time to time.

1:57:271:57:29

And so...

1:57:331:57:37

I can only say that, in answer to your question...

1:57:371:57:40

..that while technically I did not commit a crime,

1:57:411:57:46

an impeachable offence...

1:57:461:57:48

These are legalisms.

1:57:501:57:52

As far as the handling of this matter is concerned,

1:57:521:57:56

it was so botched-up.

1:57:561:57:59

I made so many bad judgements.

1:58:001:58:04

The worst ones, mistakes of the heart rather than the head,

1:58:041:58:07

as I pointed out.

1:58:071:58:10

But let me say, a man in that top job,

1:58:101:58:15

he's got to have a heart.

1:58:151:58:18

But his head must always rule his heart.

1:58:181:58:22

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