The Story of Wales Debate

The National Waterfront Museum in Swansea - one of the jewels in the

crown of our shared heritage. We're here tonight to debate The Story of

Wales. Not just how it is told and why that matters, but to ask where

our national narrative goes from Welcome to Swansea and to The Story

of Wales Debate. You are joining an audience eager

to have its say and a panel who when it comes to Welsh history, or

should that be histories, they will certainly have plenty to say as

well. They are Peter Stee, d, Ellen Jones,

an educationalist. David Anderson is the Director-General of national

museum Wales and John Gerraint, from Green Bay, whose production

company told The Story of Wales. Well, it was a big hit, with an

average of 300,000 viewers per episode. It scored top marks with

that audience. They say they have enjoyed it more than any other

series on the BBC so far this year. Only Frozen Planet has topped it in

the past 10 months. If you have not caught at least some of The Story

of Wales, the series has just ended. Here is a taste of what you have

From the land of storytellers, this is the story of the land itself and

It's majestic, it's thrilling, it's a story who tells us who we are,

where we've come from and where we're going. It is a tale which has

been 30,000 years in the making. It shows our country in ways we've

never seen it before, from the Ice Age to the information age.

And all through its history, there have been times when it has led the

way. This copper was being exported 4,000 years ago. In the Dark Ages,

Welsh saints carried the light of Christianity to Cornwall, Brittany

and Spain. Welsh laws, based on putting things right rather than an

eye for an eye were the most progressive of the Middle Ages.

In the 1700's the Welsh became one of the most literate nations on

Earth. Half the population of Wales learns to read in these travelling

schools. In a modern world, which Wales helped to power, we have been

leaders in technology, in education in the struggle for workers' rights

and decent health care. Are we Welsh? Are we British? In

the last 70 years, the balance has shifted.

We have always been a people who love our Square Mile - our own

little bit of Wales. But now, we also have a national frame in which

to address our problems. Politics and a set of institutions all of

our own. And above all, we are a people with a story and that story

gives us power. It is hard for any proud Welsh man

or woman not to feel a warm glow after watching that. Are you

feeling the glow? Are you feeling too much of a glow, perhaps? I am

feeling a glow. Pluses and minuses on the whole. I am thrilled it has

been so well made. It is wonderful to think I can go into the

classrooms and homes of Wales. It is beautiful to look at. Landscape

is beautiful in Wales. We are defined by our landscape. It is not

The Story of Wales, it is Huw Edwards on The Story of Wales.

There is too much of Huw Edwards. Six hours is too much of him

talking T fact it is Huw Edwards made the programmes more subive,

more romantic than it needed to be. If historians had been more

involved there would have been more cutting-edge. The narrative was

well done on the whole and brilliant in the last programme.

There were programmes, especially in the Middle Ages where it broke

down. We needed more concentration on the definition of Wales in the

Middle Ages. On the refation, very sound on Henry VII and the civil

war. The reporting was one-sided and seriously wrong in many ways.

So pluses and minuses, certainly. Out of ten, what are we saying?

Seven out of ten. OK, you will remember the producer is sitting

next door. I was going to say five until I remembered that. Is this a

story of Wales as opposed to The Story of Wales? Does it matter that

it is, to an extent, at least a man and a production company's view of

that story? There can only be a story of Wales, there cannot be The

Story of Wales. As somebody who is a new-comer to Wales as well, I

found I was learning things I didn't know before. That is to be

expected. I did find it refreshing that recent research and evidence

which has come out from arc koling was being used so much -- arc

Collie gi was being used to much. It did bring it to life as well.

I see this sort of series really as critical at providing a spine or

framework for everybody to move on and take the journey beyond there.

It was a story. It did not pretend to be an argument as Peter Steed

has alluded to that. It referred to the fact there were arguments and

debates. That is a function for any public history. Did it go enough

into those arguments for you? It didn't. It was The Story of Wales

and it was, Huw Edwards or who ever's take on The Story of Wales.

The strength, the fact it was only his take was its weakness for me.

And I always have this thing about stories of Wales and history of

Wales written by men, produced by men, presented by a man John Davis

said the history of Wales is a conspiracy by one half of the

population against the other half. I am here to represent the other

half tonight. Which absent women were there?

didn't have anything about Elanor. Lucy Thomas didn't have a mention.

She was the mother of the household trade. She was wonderful. You

didn't have enough of the entrepreneurial spirit of Welsh

women. What did you get? Where were the miners' wives. 300,000 who

commented after watching the programme got a great deal from it,

something they say they have not got from anywhere else. What was

that then? That was a history of Wales. That was their past. I think,

for whatever reasons and we can debate those reasons, people in

Wales have lost a sense of their own history. There is a sense that

there is a sort of real history which often includes Henry the

eighth and his six wives and it includes Mercer and Nazi Germany.

It is the history which is accepted. Hang on, Peter. We have to think

about the way in which we engage Welsh people in the future with a

creation of their history. It is their history. Nobody else's.

we did get was identity. Certainly the question of identity is

problematic in Wales today. You can argue that a service has been done

by giving people an identity. The emphasis could have been on other

things. They can achieve it through class, through religion, through

language. It doesn't have to be political institutions. It did not

have to be the coming of Cardiff Bay. It can be through

individualism, individual self- fulfilment. If anything is needed

it is an emphasis on individuality and for people to fulfil themselves

in that kind of way. That could have been a different emphasis.

have heard their comments and you have seen the audience appreciation

figures we have alluded to. What did you set out to do with this

series? Well, I think it is great we're having this debate and the

views around the panel here are obviously varied. I think they are

at variance with the reaction of the audience. You mentioned the

audience appreciation figures. They did not give it seven out of ten,

they gave it more than that. That measure is showing the appreciation

of the audience was so deep for this, is that they do understand

the complexities. They do understand that the story of Wales,

as we have defined it in this series, is the story of each and

every one of us in Wales. They have taken the depth. They have taken

the quality that we have been able to offer in this series because

they don't respond to that question, how much did you appreciate this

for a series like this, as they would do for Strictly Come Dancing

or The Voice. They understand this is a serious documentary series.

That seriousness and that depth comes from the very real engagement

of the entire academic community here in Wales. In the development

of this series, we consulted with 48 academic historians. On screen

in this series, there are 30, more than 30 actually, experts,

historians. Did it matter it was a news caster who told the story?

me finish this point, because those academics who contributed and we

also had a series consultant. We had a panel of experts who advised

us from the Open University, included many women.

The new generation of women historians, younger women, really

had their voice in this series. That has never been done before.

Huw Edwards for me was the only person who could bring that all

together and he did. He is brilliant. He is the number one

news caster on Britain's most watched news programme. And that is

not by accident, it is because he knows how to tell a story, how to

move through 30,000 years of history in a way which engages the

audience, gives them substance and depth, but keeps the audience

engaged and following with us all the way through this series, as

they have done in huge numbers. Thank you. You talk about engaging

the audience. Let's do that now. You have all seen the series. You

have your opinions on it. Can I come to you as someone who

has had a huge part in telling The Story of Wales on television for

audiences who might not be terribly interested before they switch on.

It is a tough thing, isn't it? is tough for the reasons that Peter

and Ellen have described. I am not surprised to find there is a

majority from the audience for this series. It feels big and is big. I

believe a nation is a narrative and this is a big narrative. I accept

the view that it may not be to everyone's liking. It is a way of

telling the story and people like telling the story and people like

stories. It is also right that there should

be an argument. There is already an argument about it. It would be very

surprising, wouldn't it if people in Wales were not beginning to

quarrel about it. I think the argument opening up is healthy

because people will look behind what they first saw and it looks

marvellous and say, he's got a point, the historians this and the

historians that. We are lucky in Wales to have so many historians.

When I started working if Wales in 1969 there was just a small band of

them. Now they have grown up, as we can see from Peter and historians

are everywhere. I would like to have seen more

people, people from different walks of life. OK, thank you. Who else

had a view on the series? What did you make of it? I think history

comes alive through it will rayure comes alive through it will rayure

very often. To me D there were lots of moments, especially the gorgeous

sunsets when they were deeply enhanced by hearing the voices from

the past in their own words. Huw turned to the sunset and said

it was the end of the world. Wales produced one of the most beautiful

energies. It would have been beautiful to hear the words at that

point over that sunset, maybe with a translation running down the side

or something. Voices from the past needed to be heard through the

literature of the past. On the miners - there were many

people who could have spoken for us, for the nation, in poems, in

stories. It was The Story of Wales after all. Talking about landscape

porn - did you enjoy that or did you think there was too much of it?

It is the flavour of the moment, isn't it? I get dizzy with

helicopter shots, I must say. I really do. But it is the flavour of

the moment. Every age sporns the television it needs to have. If you

compare this with the Dragon Has Two Tongues. That was a sustained

argument between two people with fiercely opposing views. That was

very much the time it was set in, the '80s, it was the time of

radical, different views. Now we live in a PR age, where it is

glossy and beautiful. Everything is buffed to a fine shine. The take is

a reflection of its time - a child of its time as much as what has

gone before. You are saying it is the same for television? Of course

it is. The sining to graphy was -- the filming was beautiful. What did

you make of it? I am very positive of the programme. There are few

series which bring families together. The last one was Coal

House, for example. This brought my family together. I have to speak in

defence of Huw Edwards. I thought he sold the story of Wales very

well. 300,000 viewers agreed with you.

Those 300,000 commented quite freely on the Facebook page and

Twitter and so on, and one of the points they made a few times,

various people saying, "I didn't know that about The Story of Wales.

Had I known that I would have been more proud of it." Why didn't they

know that? Why don't we know our history better? Why did we need

this series so badly? I think you can say because there was a

distinction between academic history, which is vital to bring

flesh and blood into thinking and if you like the public history. I

think it's a comment on all of us who are responsible for the public

history really, that maybe some of these stories are not better known.

I think it means that, in the same way as television series, have

their generation - there is a need for each generation to have new

takes on these issues. The same is true for museums as well. They are

another important part. Is it an admission of public failure - that

people don't know the history? history of England has been real

history. The history of Wales is what you do when you do the real

history. You do local history, a bit of women's history, that is

where you go - you add it on. We have not stood where we are and

look outwards. Are you talking as a history teacher? Yes. I am. That is

precisely what we tried to do in The Story of Wales. I will not

apologise for the look of it. Television is a medium -- visual

medium. Wake up, guys. We had a message - that message was, we are

in a wider world. We have always been in that wider world. Those

links have always existed and existed in both directions. We have

been at the cutting edge of change. That is what the audience reacts to.

The excitement of that discovery. You have your argument first.

the first programme things like the Bronze Age discoveries, riveting.

That was wonderful. Several people told me, this is my own poll about

that first programme, the one thing we wanted to know is where the

Welsh language came from? How did Wales have the language? It is not

mentioned. It is only taken up slightly thereafter.

Peter is wrong and being mischievous. It's not there. We are

not told where the Welsh language came from. Let me bring you back to

the issue of education - it is such a key one. When you set out to make

the series, did you have an assumption or a deaf knit decision

to say, I don't think -- deaf knit decision to say, I don't think most

people will know this. We were asked to make a programme at 9pm.

That is a battle ground for the audyabs T way you win that is you

re-- audience. The way you win that is you don't assume political

knowledge. Yes, we had to assume an idea that people don't know this

story or these facts. The reaction you report on Twitter and Facebook

and all kinds of online forums have been going wild with it. I never

knew this - that message comes through again and again.

Humphreys, the Open University was involved - it was a partner in

making the series. Why did you feel it was important to be involved?

don't have any qualms with working the BBC, we have done that for 40

years. It was an enriching partnership. It was important to

see it as a component part, not a one-off as a number of activities,

so the people who phone in and respond to Huw Edwards's call at

the end of the programme for our free booklet and that booklet

challenges some of the issues around the missing links and how

history is with generation and the stuff on the Open University

website looks to fill in the gaps. The panellists have said are

compressed to make a television series. One final point, one of the

things we are trying to develop, working with libraries, for example,

in south-east Wales, with day schools and the rest of it, a

series like this is not about promoting pride in our nation or

promoting a warm glow, it is about promoting an understanding of our

past, and understandings of our past, because citizens today need

to make decisions about their future, in order to do that they

need clarity around their past. Certainly people can debate it,

argue about it. That is its purpose. The TV series is a primer to get

people to learn more? 9pm, BBC One, this is peak time. It is a very

competitive environment for broadcasters. Sure, there are

issues of compression and accessibility. We intend, and we do,

build on that, just as we did, with the programme earlier on Frozen

Planet, which was an open University production. I will come

to the younger citizens of today. How many of your classmates would

have watched this series, do you know? From our classmates because

we do history, they would have watched it. Because they were told

to or found it interesting? Both really. We do stuff that interests

you in the academic world and a series like this does. I think the

wider school, a wider younger generation would not necessarily

watch a documentary like this. There was a comment on Facebook,

history in school was really boring, this is interesting, go Huw. Was

that a view you shared? I obviously like history. It's not what I think,

but other people might not be as interested. Maybe something like

this, which is on TV, and it's all in one go, it might be a bit better.

Have you been taught Welsh history? How much did you know, for

instance? Seeing bits of it to do with the myths and stuff like that

we have done. Would you like to know more Welsh history? Should

more be taught in your school, for instance? Within history we don't

get taught, we get taught British history and examples of Wales. If

we learnt more about Welsh history, the actual Welsh lessons through

literature and asking our Welsh teacher what is best. Why is that

still the case? These are school pupils now, why do they tell us

they learn more about history in their Welsh lessons? I weep. It is

the truth, there is a sense with history teachers although there is

a statutory requirement to teach certain topics in Welsh and British

history and the wider world, it is written in the curriculum, it is

law. What gets taught to you and gets taught by teachers the length

and breadth of Wales... Hang on. It is a history, a perceived

curriculum that they have got to know this, they have got to know

whentry the eighth. They have to know the -- the history of Henry

VIII. Is it changing fast enough?

There is not enough local history either. An educational system which

has declined. You have been saying about learning things. I think it

was programme four, that period I did for O-level in 1958. Nothing

was said that was not said by my history teacher. You are lucky.

That is the way Welsh history was taught. Identity is about values.

In the series the two great value systems, which created modern Wales,

are Protestant non-confor mitty and socialism, especially the Labour

Party. The series did no justice to either of those things. Nothing is

said about the theology and what he meant to Wales. And on the

programme in the miners, there was no reference to the miner's lodgers.

The Labour Party had one mention at the end of the programme. I think

Peter has switched off to put his kettle on at key points. We talk

about the med methodist revival. We talk about the travelling Sunday

schools and what they do to make Wales one of the most literate

countries in the world, based on the fact that people wanted to read

their bibles. He is being very miss cheveous. What about education and

whether we are taught enough about our history, this programme's role

in teaching us more. Who has a take on that? Let's start here.

Television has a major role in how public understand history.

Historians in the 1990s complained there was too much Hitler, too

first first and Second World War. Producers started to make

programmes about Britain. Then historians criticised those series

and the subsequent series in Ireland have been criticised. It is

an on-going tradition. Historians need to realise it is an

improvement of the Nazis history. am cheating here. I am jumping on

this ladder to make a point I feel is very important. What worries me

is... Well it is not history of the Welsh people, it is not inclusive.

If I was from north Wales, what would I be doing - huffing and

puffing. Rural Wales got lost. I come from the maritime tradition.

We got 30 seconds. So before you get too angry here I am really

annoyed that women were of mitded from your story. A -- were Ommitted.

That point has been made. A few times we have started to talk about

identity. Peter you have taken us towards talking about identity.

What does it mean to be Welsh? The Story of Wales went into that

territory. One programme was entitled, England and Wales. Who

thinks cities are changing the way we think of ourselves and the

relationship to Britain and Wales? I think the point has been very

well made that it was necessarily a selective history of Wales. In a

sense, that is because any story of any nation is going to be exclusive.

What I thought was interesting about that last episode was that in

a sense it was saying, well now we have a legislative Assembly in

Wales, and we can build on that. We can look to the future. The point

was made that we are engaging a sense of Welsh citizenship. That

allows us, in a sense, to put the past behind us, to use that as a

solid foundation, but to no longer be enthralled to the past. To no

longer to be concerned always to define Wales by those elements in

the past that we want to prioritise and select. There was a question in

this story of Wales - do you feel Welsh or British? Who... Not all of

you are Welsh. But those who are, who feels Welsh first and foremost?

Why? I suppose when I grew up I had the idea that I was a subject of

the Queen. I liked the fact I have become a citizen in that period. I

have always recented having to describe myself as "British". That

is something imposed on me by the state.

Last year I was pondering the Wales I lived in. I thought, what makes

me proud? There are those stereotypes, rugby teams and the

rest of it. But I was living in America and I read in an American

newspaper about the National Theatre, the national the teeter of

Wales's production it said "there could not have been a happier place

in the world than Port Talbot." It was transformed by a creative act.

I thought, that is the sort of Wales I like, come out and say

Britishness was a shadow in the past, but we have moved on. We can

describe ourselves as a creative nation, one which can transform

people and make them feel better. For this series, yes, it is

romantic. Yes, it is lush and has that big sense around that you get

in the cinema. You need that "feel- good factor". You need that "feel-

good factor", because with that creativity we have a disabling

poverty in Wales, which has been a constant in our history as well.

Who else has their hand up? It is interesting that we were asked the

question, do you feel Welsh or British? A lot of people don't

define their identity necessarily to do with nationhood to begin with.

This is the tension with making a story that is about a nation, and

emphasising what we have in common. You could ask, do you feel Welsh,

or do you feel more allies with your femininity or do you feel

allied with your politics or your class? This programme, necessarily

is privileged national identity above those other identities. I

suppose that is one of the, perhaps tensions that is coming out in

debate. I think that historical academics feel. A lot have spent a

lot of time over recent decades studying the diversity and

difference. Let's come to you then on that feeling of identity. Why

did you hon in on it? Why did you regard it as so important for this

series? I think there has been a shift in political terms. There has

been a cultural shift. There's been a shift with people learning the

Welsh language. It is a less divisive issue than 40-50 years ago.

We have to take account of that. That is one of the facts of living

life in Wales. Living in Wales feels different now than when I was

a boy. We need to reflect that. The point is well made, that we were

asked to produce the story of a nation. Therefore one has the

privilege in certain senses things that relate to that frame in

telling the story. Huw Edwards is not here, but I will channel him

and a quote from the last programme. He said "we're an ancient people,

more certain of our identity than at any point in the last 1,000

years." It went partly to explain the mood, the uplifting mood of the

series? Do we agree with him? a confusing situation. It is a more

confusing situation than that. I am disappointed by the over

simplification of the programme. The question of identity is an

important one. It is important that we hold up a complicated notion of

identity. By far the most exciting thing has been the Industrial

Revolution. We were made by the revolution. The wealth it allowed.

We had the tragedy of it in the 20th century. The last programme,

which I thought was the best of the six, caught that brilliantly. What

is the answer? Well, the answer must be the question of wealth

creation. This is something which the programme does not look at all.

There is little economic history in the programme. Why aren't we more

entrepreneurial? Can we become more entrepreneurial?

I think the emphasis should have been on identity in terms of skills

and fulfilment rather than thinking that some kind of political

devolution is going to be the one great answer to all of these

questions. You are looking from the outside in a way, you are not Welsh.

You are Scottish. Born in Belfast. Are we obsessing about this? Not at

all. I think on the contrary, coming to terms with identity is

crucial. If you don't then the problems can be much greater as

well. One only has to look into England to see there is not a

museum about English history. There was the series about the history of

Britain, as defined as opposed to a history of England. There are grave

risks. I heard about them needing them to look at what we need to be

and issues of self-reliance as well. Part of this as well, and I think

looking at Irish history, is generosity about engagement with

the rest of the world. We are what we have come from. We also need to

be what we can be in terms of relationships with others as well.

The confidence which comes from both of those things is significant.

I will pick up another confidence. The Story of Wales, up until now,

where do you see it going from here? Does the series - what does

it tell us about where we go from here? I think the fact that there

were many women historians involved is encouraging. It may be more

balanced if we tell ourselves in the future. It will be a story

which reflects our position on the edge of Europe, but connected to

Europe by many ties. So there will be a strong sense, I hope, of a

Welshness, which is us and ourselves and close to our hearts

but looking out wider than Wales itself. Over to Ireland and

Scotland as well as England and into Europe. Where in fact issues

of identity are regularly debated by historians, just as we debate

them in Wales. There are small nations elsewhere. We can learn

from each other. We should value our tradition, our multi-identities

as much as we can for the future and take pride and in our own

language and own places. One of the thrilling things was about focusing

on the moments where Wales had connections, where Wales led the

world. Where we connected that that much wider world and we led it in

the battle for workers' rights, for education. Where do we go from

here? When you look forward, what do you see? That is telling us that

Wales can be ambition. -- ambitious. I think in the climate we find

ourselves in there is a danger we try and play catch-up. I think

there are times and there are places and there are moments where

we can lead the way. We should seek those. Where do you see the...

Another series in 20 years what will that tell us? I hope we don't

have to wait 20 years. Let's hope in 20 years we will celebrate some

kind of recovery and Wales having a global role. We should look

outwards. The Wales I grew up in in the 40's and 50's we were as much

American. The popular culture was American. I think the Welsh always

had a fascination with America. A lot of Welsh energy has gone into

America. That is something we need to develop. Do you look ahead with

confidence? Yes. The sort of confidence we saw in this series?

think Wales should have an international role. We should say

to young people, take it on, in terms of literature, in terms of

the creative arts. That does not have to be tied to a political

solution in Cardiff Bay. We are too concerned with politics in Wales

and so concerned with political institutions. You are talking to

the wrong woman. Not sufficiently concerned. Cultural fulfilment is

what we should look at. I promised not to give you 10 seconds, but I

will. Where do we go from here? Things can be different from what

they are in the present. If we can learn that lesson, we don't have to

copy the past, we can invent our own inven -- inventions. Whatever

you made of it got us wanting more. There has been passionate debate

about it. There have been thousands of comments on social media over

the past few weeks. The debate will now, I hope, carry online, on the

Facebook page and on Twitter. If you want to enjoy The Story of

Wales again, then you won't have long to wait. It will be shown on

BBC Two across the UK soon. So that viewer who wrote in to say this

should be shown on the English Channel, talk about identity, well