Zoe Wanamaker Mark Lawson Talks To...


Zoe Wanamaker

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Zoe Wanamaker is strongly associated with two high profile families.

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The first is the Wanamakers.

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Her father, Sam, an ex-patriot American in Britain,

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campaigned and fundraised for decades to build a recreation

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of Shakespeare's Globe Theatre in London.

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The other is the Harpers, including matriarch and dentist's wife Susan,

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who Zoe Wanamaker played for a decade

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opposite Robert Lindsay in the top-rating BBC One sitcom.

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Between those clans she became a familiar

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and award-winning stage actress in classical and modern roles.

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Inheriting a famous showbiz name,

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she's made it even more celebrated in her own right.

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Both your parents were actors

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and you followed them into the profession.

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Have you ever regretted it or wished you'd done something else instead?

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No.

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I wish I'd had...

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..more time for my education.

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That's all.

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I think that's the only thing.

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I wish I'd been able to go to university

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and actually spend some time doing that.

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Expanding my brain a little bit more in an academic way.

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And looking at your list of credits,

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there's a pretty decent job on stage or screen for pretty much

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every year I can find since you started in the 1970s.

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Is that the case or have there been spells of unemployment and despair?

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Yes is the quick answer.

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Yes, there have been.

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I remember times when I had to count the pennies to find out

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if I could buy a loaf of bread

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or if I could get a pack of fags or something like that,

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but, yes, I think there's an innate fear of not working.

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And also, I love working. I love it.

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A lot of actors don't work, as we know.

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Because of the way it works, having to go for auditions

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and the possibility of rejection and then reviews

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and whether things run or not, or work as films,

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insecurity is inevitable, is it?

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Yes, absolutely.

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I'm afraid it's a shadow that's there with you all the time.

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It goes with the territory, I think,

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which is a shame cos it can cripple you.

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That's the only problem.

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And is acting completely natural to you now,

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or are there nerves and uncertainty?

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Yes, there are nerves and uncertainty.

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It's not natural.

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It's instinctive.

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But there are times when it becomes, as an actor,

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for me, personally, anyway, there are times when my instinct stops,

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and that's when I get stuck.

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Then it's finding your way out of that, that is always the struggle

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and is always the crisis point in any rehearsal period it seems to me.

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Has it gone beyond that? Have you found yourself in a role

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where you have ended up thinking, "I just can't play this?"

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Yes, and I think that's when I stopped reading reviews.

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And I did go to the director and I said, after a week,

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"I don't think I'm right for this."

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Which part?

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Let me finish the story and then I'll tell you.

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It was the only time that I felt American and Jewish.

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It's never happened to me before

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and I was surrounded by very English actors

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and I felt that I was completely wrong for it.

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Then I read a review after we opened and this one critic said that

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I was completely wrong and it crippled me for the rest of the run.

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Completely crippled me, destroyed me.

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So I thought, "That's it, I'm never going to read a review again."

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There's no point if that's what's going to happen to you,

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that you actually can not function after that.

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And it was The Importance Of Being Earnest at the National

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with Judi playing my mother...

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-Judi Dench?

-Yes, sorry, Judi Dench.

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..which was our second outing as mother and daughter.

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That was an example of being crippled by something.

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I think I had another image in my head of what it should be,

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not what it was.

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So, in that case, did you say to Judi Dench,

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"Look, I'm struggling here."

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-Yes.

-And what did she say?

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I can't remember. Probably something very encouraging.

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But this is the problem.

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If a film hasn't worked, people don't like it, you're away from it,

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but on stage, if you don't feel it's working

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or if the audiences aren't coming or the reviews have been bad,

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you just have to carry on.

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Yes, you do. You have to go on.

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You have to keep on believing in that path that you've taken

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and the reason that you committed yourself to that piece of work

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and also to that character.

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And you have to do it justice and you have to believe in it somehow.

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That's why I don't read reviews. There's no point.

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It just is damaging.

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I can't take criticism until the play is done,

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the character's put to bed, character's put to sleep,

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and then maybe I'll look at a review

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and think that was justified or not.

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Another question of etiquette over reactions to roles is

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you're married to an actor, Gawn Grainger,

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so when you go and see each other,

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are there rules about how honest you are?

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I think one has to be very delicate about...

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This doesn't just apply to my husband.

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It applies to everybody, I think.

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You can't destroy somebody's confidence like that.

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Ever.

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Do you carry in your head a list of the ones that worked

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and the ones that didn't?

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No, I don't carry it with me. Once I've finished a character it's gone.

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But I do have happy, good memories of things that I feel I was,

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on the whole, pleased with myself with.

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In your episode of Who Do You Think You Are,

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you described yourself as an immigrant

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because you moved to the UK from America at the age of two.

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Was that jokey or is that, in fact, how you think of yourself?

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No, I don't think so.

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I think the older I've become, the more I see around me

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that most of us are immigrants in some way or other,

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and it was just very visceral, that experience, I have to say,

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and it's a privilege, that programme, in a way,

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because the research is done for you.

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Because you're father was a more public figure,

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you tend to be associated with him.

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Yours are the names that are connected when people talk about you

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so were you, in fact, closer to your father than to your mother?

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No, I wouldn't say. I think it was equal.

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I think I was quite frightened of my father.

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I loved him and hated him at the same time and I was quite nervous of him.

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My mother was adorable and sweet

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and funny

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and vulnerable

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and shy.

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All those things.

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She brought us up really because Dad started going...

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After his passport was given back to him,

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he started going back to work in America a lot.

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So Mum was there looking after the three of us.

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So it was hard. It was harder for her.

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The question of the passport.

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In your Who Do You Think You Are,

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it was set up as a mystery at the beginning

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that your Dad, Sam Wanamaker,

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suddenly left the US in 1951, come here.

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But I felt that I actually knew that there had been a lot of discussion

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in his obituaries and even in interviews he gave

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about him being a victim of McCarthyism.

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Having to leave America and coming here.

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Did you, in fact, know as little as you appeared to know

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in the TV documentary?

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Yes, I did know as little as that because...

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It was never really mentioned when we were growing up.

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The only time it was mentioned...

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I do remember only a few times in my memory, which is not good,

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that when the offices were broken into in the States,

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Daddy was sent his file,

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so I remember that very well because it was Sunday lunch time

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and we all had a look at it and it was this thin.

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So this was Senator McCarthy's investigation, yeah.

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My god. 'A reliable informant, 1947' it goes back.

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'Confidential informant advised that she, an actress,

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'had been active in the theatre during that time in New York.

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'She'd been told the Wanamakers, Charlotte and Sam,

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had been members of the Communist Party for a number of years.'

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It just looks like they were people they were working with

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were informants.

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And then the next time we spoke about it, which I think I said,

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was when I was doing The Crucible at the National, and it was

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the first time I can remember Daddy really talking about what happened.

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Because, for people who don't know,

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Arthur Miller's The Crucible was inspired by McCarthyism

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-and the pursuit of alleged Communists in America.

-Yes.

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-So it was therefore a very direct...

-The witch hunt.

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The only reason why we came to England was because of Daddy knowing

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that he was going to be subpoenaed to go before the committee.

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He must have been tipped off.

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I also didn't know to the extent he was a member of the Communist Party.

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Now that was really interesting watching that programme that,

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to adapt that terrible McCarthy phrase, growing up with him,

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you had no sense he was or ever had been a Communist?

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I don't think I was that politically aware, to be honest. Or interested.

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That's my...

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It may be a failing, but I just wasn't that...

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It didn't matter to me.

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I didn't know that he'd been followed. I didn't know that.

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All I knew was what my mother told me, which I think

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I talked about, that she was constantly, when living in New York,

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worried about the phone being tapped,

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about the knock at the door, who it was going to be,

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about certain friends, so coming to England was a big thing for them.

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And that detail you say of your Dad getting his passport back and being

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able to go and work there, do you remember that happening at the time?

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All I remember is that he took my big sister...

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..on a weekend trip, I think, to Holland or somewhere.

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Copenhagen or something, because he had his passport.

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He just wanted to see if it worked.

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But you didn't know the details of why he'd lost his passport?

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No, I didn't know the details.

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I just knew that he was very outspoken and he was very left wing

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and he was part of the Hollywood Ten.

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He'd met the Hollywood Ten in Washington.

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I knew those sort of stories

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and that a lot of my parents' friends in this country

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were American immigrants running away.

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So what was your relationship with America then,

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when you were growing up?

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-Did you ever go there?

-Yes, I went there.

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Then, telephone calls were quite expensive and my grandparents...

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You know, the telephone calls were usually on a Sunday.

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My mother always used to say, "It's my nickel" or "It's their nickel.

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"You can't talk for too long."

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So I did go back, I think, the first time I went there was

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when I was 17 or 18 to New York.

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I went to New York and then I went to Chicago to see my aunt

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and then I went to California where my grandparents had retired to.

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I suddenly felt very English because we had mini skirts here,

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we had bubble haircuts and we had the Rolling Stones and the Beatles.

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So suddenly, for me to be English, was much more cool

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than it was to be American.

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It was the sixties, you know.

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Your father became very celebrated in this country and remained so

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for the recreation of Shakespeare's Globe beside the Thames.

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Was Shakespeare a big deal growing up?

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-For me?

-Yeah.

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No.

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In fact, when I left drama school,

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that time is about the seventies,

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we're talking about the seventies.

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For me, the most important thing was new writing

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and that was very dominant with my generation of actors as well.

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My friends.

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So when I first went to Stratford I wanted to do new plays

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rather than do Shakespeare, but then I kind of...

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John Barton used to have sonnet classes on a Saturday morning

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and those were illuminating and extraordinary and I would have...

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If I got stuck, I would have to ask my friends

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about how does iambic pentameter work.

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I still to this day don't know.

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Well, I do, ish, but it's instinct.

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I mean, it's the wonderful thing about Shakespeare

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and that's what I loved about being there.

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It was like having a good education again

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and learning again about Shakespeare and why people loved it so much.

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But what became the Globe Project...

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What became the Globe Project?

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Yeah, was that there? Was that passion from early on?

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That was a passion from his, I think,

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from the 1960s, late sixties.

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It suddenly became a thing with him, but my career was just beginning

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and he's then started this whole passion for Shakespeare's Globe.

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It is Shakespeare's Globe to most of us when we go past it or we see it,

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but it's HIS Globe, is it, for you?

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Yeah, he'd hate me for saying that, but it's true.

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But he's dead! So he can't criticise me any more!

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THEY GIGGLE

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No, it's a fantastic thing and, in fact, what they've done is,

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they're building this indoor Jacobean theatre now

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and they're going to call it the Sam Wanamaker Theatre,

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which he would again have hated,

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because he didn't believe in naming buildings after people.

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You know, as long as he's in the ether and his name goes in the ether,

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I'm very happy. I think it's great.

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So growing up in school, you had an American passport,

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but I assume an English accent.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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But did you think of yourself as an American?

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No, not really.

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Um...

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When Dad would go to the States,

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he would always come back with suitcases of clothes,

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as kind of apology for being away for so long,

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and there was always a fight between the three girls,

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you know, as to who would get...

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Cos Dad's taste was always a little bit...

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THEY GIGGLE

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And there was always a fight as to who got what.

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There was always colour involved,

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whereas, and still, the '50s and '60s, everybody started to wear black

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and everybody was being a Beatnik or white lipstick, I remember.

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White lipstick and black eyeliner and lots of blond streaked hair, I had.

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Dreadful, with peroxide.

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And so when he brought colour into the house, there was always that.

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The other time I felt American was when we'd go to English houses,

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and there was no central heating and it was freezing cold,

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and the showers would always pee at you

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rather than actually having a full-grown shower,

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and when I was on tour, putting money into the metres for the gas,

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and having Flannelette, you know - those sort of things were not...

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..not how I was brought up!

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THEY LAUGH

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Because my mother imported... stuff from the States.

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Sheets that would...were nice.

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-And the power shower is part of the American dream.

-Yes.

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An actual shower that does you, rather than does bits of you.

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It's cold. It's horrid.

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That's when I felt American.

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Also I felt American in as far as we watched Lucille Ball,

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we watched Bill Coe, we watched those sorts of things, which...

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which were part of my heritage.

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My children's books were -

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The Bobbsey Twins was something that I used to like.

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So I felt in that way American, very much a part of that culture.

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The humour, really.

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And schoolchildren are very, very alert to outsiders

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and people who aren't quite fitting in,

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but did you pass as a perfect English schoolgirl?

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Well, like all middle-class girls, you start having a cockney accent,

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and start trying to be street, so that's what I did,

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and so yeah,

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I tried to be cool.

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And you said earlier, The Importance Of Being Earnest,

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it was the only time you'd felt American and Jewish.

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-Yes.

-The Jewish aspect of it.

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So, although your family were, they were not observant.

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We were Jewish, yes.

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Oh... There was a time when Dad got suddenly very worried

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that we weren't learning about our...our culture as Jews,

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so I went to the Saturday morning classes.

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I think cos he knew Hugh Gaitskell quite well,

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and so I think one of the Gaitskell girls were going there as well,

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so I went to Saturday morning classes for a few months.

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That was through the then-Labour leader,

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so that was through left-wing politics?

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Definitely. Definitely.

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So in your childhood, that sense of what it meant to have been blacklisted,

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to have been accused of being a communist in American show business

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and then left, you were aware of all that.

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It was openly talked about.

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Yes, that was openly talked about.

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So when you said earlier, I seemed to have no knowledge,

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I think I had not gone into it deeply.

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I didn't, at that time, connect with -

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in my completely selfish way -

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had not connected with the pain and suffering and...and...

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..conflict that must have happened within these people,

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my parents included.

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I wondered about that.

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Were they visibly, noticeably angry about it or they kept it hidden?

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I don't think they kept it hidden at all.

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I bought Dad for Christmas Kazan's, Elia Kazan's biography,

0:19:580:20:04

and he wasn't too pleased, he didn't think that was funny.

0:20:040:20:07

-Because Kazan was on the other...

-Because he named names.

0:20:070:20:10

He named names. Yeah.

0:20:100:20:11

And I think that he didn't find that interesting at all.

0:20:110:20:16

He was clearly, as we see because the Globe is there,

0:20:160:20:18

he was determined, your father.

0:20:180:20:20

That's what was scary about him. He was a powerful force, I have to say.

0:20:200:20:26

I think the three of us were all...

0:20:280:20:31

We loved him and also hated him. Hated is too strong a word.

0:20:310:20:36

Yes. Sometimes we would hate him. I know I did.

0:20:360:20:40

Angry, just angry with him.

0:20:410:20:43

Why? Why would he make you angry?

0:20:430:20:46

You know, we only remember the good things. Isn't it funny?

0:20:460:20:50

Erm...

0:20:500:20:53

I think because he was...erm, always right.

0:20:530:20:58

THEY LAUGH

0:20:580:21:00

Erm, and also he was combative.

0:21:000:21:04

And sometimes would be...

0:21:060:21:09

Let me see, he wouldn't take any prisoners.

0:21:100:21:14

If somebody crossed him, that was it.

0:21:160:21:19

He could be very strong like that.

0:21:190:21:23

He was a first-generation American and that says a lot,

0:21:230:21:28

and particularly in this country, sometimes I would find it embarrassing.

0:21:280:21:32

Fathers are very embarrassing sometimes as well.

0:21:320:21:35

And he talked to people in the street and I thought that was embarrassing.

0:21:350:21:40

You know, he was nice to people.

0:21:420:21:43

I think I have more of my mother in me,

0:21:430:21:45

which is slightly more shy and reserved and get self-conscious.

0:21:450:21:52

But he was also a first-generation American who'd been kicked out of the country,

0:21:520:21:56

which is pretty... You can see why... I think I can see why,

0:21:560:21:59

psychologically, that is a pretty extraordinary thing, isn't it.

0:21:590:22:03

Mmm.

0:22:030:22:04

-So you have the immigrant pride and then you have the anger.

-Yes.

0:22:040:22:08

Yes. I think the anger.

0:22:080:22:11

But he was also that kind of person, he never liked to sit still.

0:22:110:22:15

He never liked to... If he wasn't working, he'd create work.

0:22:150:22:20

I think that's how the Globe started to some extent,

0:22:230:22:26

because he was taking his brother, who was a doctor, on a visit to London

0:22:260:22:31

and they walked around Southwark and found everything in dereliction,

0:22:310:22:36

and found this plaque.

0:22:360:22:38

So then he got fired up about that.

0:22:380:22:40

It's very him that he would have been that driven

0:22:400:22:43

because a lot of people would've given up

0:22:430:22:45

and a lot of people would never have achieved it, but he did both.

0:22:450:22:48

Yeah. And also from a lot of people saying no.

0:22:480:22:50

Southwark Council saying no. The people of Southwark saying no.

0:22:520:22:57

Erm...

0:22:570:22:58

I think they thought he was an American and therefore either

0:23:000:23:04

they should be given the money or he should go back to his own country.

0:23:040:23:09

LAUGHTER

0:23:090:23:10

I don't know what.

0:23:100:23:12

But to spend 27 years of his life on this mission, I would have given up.

0:23:120:23:18

Just...

0:23:200:23:21

And your parents sent you, at one point, to a Quaker school.

0:23:230:23:27

Was that for religious reasons or just because it was a good school?

0:23:270:23:30

I think they felt that I was...

0:23:300:23:32

SHE GIGGLES

0:23:320:23:33

I wasn't doing well at my other school, I was distracted,

0:23:330:23:37

and that I needed to go elsewhere and I should be sent away,

0:23:370:23:43

and the Quaker boarding school was a lovely idea.

0:23:430:23:46

Really fantastic. But it was too late. It was too late.

0:23:460:23:50

But I did love going on the Sunday meetings,

0:23:500:23:53

I really enjoyed that very much.

0:23:530:23:55

I think it was so that I was away from London, away from distractions.

0:23:550:23:59

I had a boyfriend at the time, and that was not right.

0:23:590:24:03

Erm... Not "not right", it was just distracting.

0:24:030:24:08

Were you a bad girl?

0:24:080:24:10

I was a bad girl.

0:24:100:24:11

I smoked cigarettes behind the bike sheds, literally.

0:24:120:24:17

I mean, really.

0:24:170:24:20

Also, unbeknownst to myself,...

0:24:200:24:23

..I have dyslexia, so that made things a little more...tricky.

0:24:240:24:32

Also, half my concentration was out the window, anyway.

0:24:340:24:36

I was away with the fairies most of the time.

0:24:360:24:39

But I was taken off maths because they said there's no point.

0:24:390:24:43

There's just no point!

0:24:430:24:45

But there it is, they were right.

0:24:450:24:48

They just gave up.

0:24:480:24:50

When was the dyslexia diagnosed?

0:24:500:24:52

-Only a few years ago.

-Right.

0:24:520:24:54

I'd always...

0:24:540:24:56

..used it as an excuse.

0:24:580:25:01

So you had self-diagnosed yourself?

0:25:010:25:03

Yeah.

0:25:030:25:04

I had said, "I've got dyslexia", with my cockney, right-on accent.

0:25:040:25:09

I've got dyslexia so I can't make no head nor tail of what this script is

0:25:090:25:13

or I can't read, any excuse to not actually get to the point,

0:25:130:25:20

which is what drove my father insane.

0:25:200:25:23

Hence me being frightened of him!

0:25:230:25:26

But I was diagnosed a few years ago,

0:25:260:25:30

and it's a relief to know that I wasn't wrong.

0:25:300:25:36

Now I wear it as a kind of...

0:25:360:25:38

badge of honour really, cos I've managed to get this far with it,

0:25:380:25:43

and I think it can be a very crippling thing.

0:25:430:25:48

So all those years, before you were diagnosed,

0:25:480:25:51

of reading scripts and learning lines,

0:25:510:25:53

was it significantly more difficult than it should've been?

0:25:530:25:57

Sometimes.

0:25:570:26:00

Sometimes it was hard,

0:26:000:26:03

but that's usually when a thing was... If it wasn't written well.

0:26:030:26:08

Which is quite interesting.

0:26:080:26:10

Shakespeare, I found very easy to learn because there is a rhythm.

0:26:100:26:14

There is something in that writing which is easier, instinctively,

0:26:140:26:21

to get under your belt.

0:26:210:26:22

Poor, key-cold figure of a holy king.

0:26:280:26:31

Pale ashes of the house of Lancaster.

0:26:330:26:36

Thou bloodless remnant of that royal blood.

0:26:370:26:40

Be it lawful that I invocate thy ghost

0:26:420:26:45

to hear the lamentations of poor Anne.

0:26:450:26:48

Wife to thy Edward, to thy slaughter'd son.

0:26:480:26:52

Stabbed by the selfsame hand that made these wounds.

0:26:530:26:57

And since you were diagnosed, have you done anything about it?

0:26:590:27:02

No, I've been very lazy about it.

0:27:020:27:04

I haven't had time, which is nice.

0:27:040:27:07

It is, isn't it.

0:27:070:27:09

Some acting parents urge their children to follow them and others

0:27:090:27:13

urge them not to follow them so which side were your parents on?

0:27:130:27:17

Completely against it.

0:27:170:27:18

I was quite good at painting and drawing,

0:27:180:27:23

and so of course my father said, "You should go to art school".

0:27:230:27:28

I also had a great passion, when I was quite young, of costume.

0:27:280:27:33

I thought costumes were quite interesting,

0:27:330:27:36

and theatrical design I thought was interesting,

0:27:360:27:39

so Dad sort of encouraged me in that direction

0:27:390:27:43

and I went to Hornsey College of Art

0:27:430:27:46

and did what was called a pre-diploma year at Hornsey,

0:27:460:27:49

which I loved. I really loved it.

0:27:490:27:52

But I knew that after about nine months of being there,

0:27:520:27:55

I had to apply for a diploma,

0:27:550:27:58

to get another three-year course and I was going to go into fine art

0:27:580:28:03

and I just realised that I didn't like being on my own.

0:28:030:28:07

It's a very solitary thing.

0:28:070:28:10

And it sort of made up my mind, I wanted to go to drama school.

0:28:100:28:15

And so at school when you weren't behind the bike sheds smoking,

0:28:150:28:18

you did some drama.

0:28:180:28:20

Yes, I did.

0:28:200:28:22

The school that I went to had an open-air theatre

0:28:220:28:25

and they would do plays in the summer there,

0:28:250:28:27

and they would also do them in the gym hall, or whatever it was called,

0:28:270:28:33

and I did the Admirable Crichton there,

0:28:330:28:36

and I did As You Like It there.

0:28:360:28:39

What did you play in As You Like It?

0:28:390:28:42

SHE SCOFFS

0:28:420:28:43

Rosalind?

0:28:430:28:44

THEY LAUGH

0:28:440:28:45

And did people immediately think you were good?

0:28:470:28:49

I don't remember. I don't remember that bit.

0:28:510:28:53

I think that's when my parents got worried, more than anything.

0:28:530:28:57

That's when they got a bit nervous that I might be an actress.

0:28:570:29:01

And they did try to talk you out of it, did they?

0:29:020:29:05

Well...

0:29:050:29:06

Yes, they did.

0:29:080:29:09

In the sense, it's tough to be a woman in this business...

0:29:090:29:14

Erm...

0:29:150:29:17

if you don't fit a certain stereotype,

0:29:170:29:20

what it was particularly in those days you had to be very pretty,

0:29:200:29:23

you had to be very thin, or very, very, very good.

0:29:230:29:27

And I don't think I was any of those things.

0:29:270:29:30

My mother was also an actress,

0:29:300:29:31

and also had known what a dispiriting thing it can be

0:29:310:29:35

and as you started our interview with saying, it's very insecure,

0:29:350:29:39

it would just...

0:29:390:29:40

They knew that it would feed on my insecurities

0:29:400:29:43

and that it wasn't going to be good for me.

0:29:430:29:46

-And yet for some reason you were determined to do it.

-Mmm.

0:29:460:29:49

Is that because you thought you were good

0:29:490:29:52

or you wanted to defy your parents?

0:29:520:29:54

Erm...

0:29:550:29:57

There must have been a bit of ego in there somewhere.

0:29:570:30:01

I fell in love with the smell of it.

0:30:010:30:03

I've also fell in love with the, not the academic side,

0:30:030:30:09

but the discovery of a story, a play.

0:30:090:30:14

The discovery of a character. The...

0:30:140:30:16

The machinations, the ways of becoming somebody else.

0:30:190:30:24

And that is a constant...

0:30:240:30:28

A constant thing with me.

0:30:280:30:31

But also if you were dyslexic,

0:30:310:30:33

I've spoken to other dyslexic actors about this, that it freed you.

0:30:330:30:37

It got you into stories in a way that you couldn't as a reader.

0:30:370:30:41

I think that's right. I think it did.

0:30:410:30:44

It's all so very...

0:30:440:30:47

..romantic in a funny way. I think that's what first...

0:30:480:30:51

My father always said, you're only in the theatre to dress up!

0:30:510:30:55

Which was partly true.

0:30:570:30:59

And that word that understandably annoys actors, "luvvie"

0:30:590:31:02

that has come in in the last couple of decades,

0:31:020:31:04

that idea of being very theatrical and calling everyone "darling".

0:31:040:31:09

Are you that kind of actor?

0:31:090:31:10

I don't know. You'd have to ask somebody else.

0:31:120:31:14

I think this country has a kind of...

0:31:140:31:18

There's a kind of anger

0:31:180:31:20

that people can have a good time

0:31:200:31:24

doing the thing that they love doing.

0:31:240:31:27

When you go to America in particular,

0:31:270:31:30

you go to France, Italy, Germany,

0:31:300:31:32

there is a complete understanding that it is a craft,

0:31:320:31:35

that it is a technique, that there is some kind of intelligence behind it.

0:31:350:31:41

I think this country has a kind of weird...

0:31:410:31:43

..view of the arts, in particular, and particularly actors.

0:31:450:31:49

Once you decided you were going to go to drama school,

0:31:490:31:52

did your parents give you tips of the "eat a banana during the interval

0:31:520:31:56

"and don't deliver a line from behind a sofa" type?

0:31:560:31:58

LAUGHTER

0:31:580:32:00

No.

0:32:000:32:02

My father was wonderful at notes.

0:32:020:32:05

He would give me notes which were fantastic, and my mother too.

0:32:050:32:10

My mother, Dad always said this, was probably a better actor than he was.

0:32:110:32:15

But my father was fantastic at notes, really, really wonderful.

0:32:180:32:22

Had you been the child of Richard Burton, say,

0:32:220:32:24

there are lots of people called Burton,

0:32:240:32:26

but Wanamaker is quite a distinctive name.

0:32:260:32:28

Was it immediately recognised at drama school and casting directors and so on?

0:32:280:32:33

Just before I left drama school,

0:32:330:32:35

I thought maybe I should change my name.

0:32:350:32:37

And I mentioned this to Dad and he said,

0:32:390:32:41

"Why? Are you embarrassed about me?"

0:32:410:32:43

And I thought that did it for me.

0:32:450:32:47

The other thing is that I remember Vanessa Redgrave saying,

0:32:470:32:50

if it can get my foot in the door...

0:32:500:32:52

..then, you know, they don't have to hire me,

0:32:540:32:57

so I thought, well, that's a good thing to remember.

0:32:570:33:00

But it's a hard act when you know, in those days, people knew that

0:33:000:33:04

Dad was the first method actor to come to this country,

0:33:040:33:07

that there was a lot at stake to some extent and a lot of burden,

0:33:070:33:12

which I'm sure every child of a famous parent has had to go through,

0:33:120:33:17

that you have to somehow prove yourself even more

0:33:170:33:23

that you're worthy of that name.

0:33:230:33:27

Was there any ever bitchiness at drama school or in your early years

0:33:270:33:31

in the business that there had been nepotism?

0:33:310:33:34

No. Not that I can remember.

0:33:350:33:39

There've been people, actors, coming up to me

0:33:390:33:41

and poking me in the chest and saying, "your father!".

0:33:410:33:45

There was a lot of that!

0:33:450:33:47

LAUGHTER

0:33:470:33:48

You went, quite early on, to the Royal Shakespeare Company for really quite a long time.

0:33:520:33:56

It's uncommon now.

0:33:560:33:58

People tend to do one or two productions.

0:33:580:34:01

But the word is there in the title, Royal Shakespeare Company,

0:34:010:34:04

but it really was, you signed up for a long time in those days.

0:34:040:34:07

In those days you'd sign up for basically two years.

0:34:070:34:10

My first job with the Royal Shakespeare Company was in 1976

0:34:100:34:15

and then they asked me to go to Stratford,

0:34:150:34:17

which I'd always wanted to do because it was a bit like Mecca.

0:34:170:34:20

And I felt it was a place where I could study Shakespeare,

0:34:200:34:25

I could study my craft,

0:34:250:34:28

and so, in the end, I was with the Royal Shakespeare on and off for 12 years.

0:34:280:34:33

And one of the breakthrough roles, significantly to me,

0:34:330:34:36

was an American play -

0:34:360:34:37

Once In A Lifetime by Moss Hart and George S Kaufman.

0:34:370:34:41

It seems sensible casting to me, but were you conscious

0:34:410:34:45

that you could bring out that side of your heritage?

0:34:450:34:49

-I assume American accents are easier for you.

-Yes.

0:34:490:34:52

American accents are not difficult at all.

0:34:520:34:55

I thank Barbara Streisand for that.

0:34:550:34:58

In what way?

0:34:580:34:59

Well...

0:34:590:35:00

Funny Girl for me was sort of like,

0:35:020:35:05

she was Jewish, she was American, she was funny,

0:35:050:35:10

she was...sassy.

0:35:100:35:13

And she wasn't "pretty".

0:35:150:35:18

And so I related to that.

0:35:180:35:19

Then along came Bette Midler, so I could relate to that.

0:35:190:35:23

Women being slightly out of control and getting away with it.

0:35:230:35:28

Which I loved.

0:35:280:35:30

I think it was, instinctively, I felt with Once In A Lifetime

0:35:300:35:36

that that character was somebody I knew very well.

0:35:360:35:41

Was your father pleased that you were doing an American play

0:35:410:35:45

or did it not register in that way?

0:35:450:35:46

I never asked him.

0:35:460:35:49

He did say once though my American accent was dreadful.

0:35:490:35:53

LAUGHTER

0:35:530:35:55

Yes.

0:35:550:35:56

So I always have a coach now when I'm doing an American play.

0:35:560:36:01

Although you have done a lot of them.

0:36:010:36:03

Arthur Miller, All My Sons, Crucible, Tennessee Williams, Clifford Odets.

0:36:030:36:07

Another important role early on, Piaf by the late Pam Gems sadly now.

0:36:070:36:12

Jane Laportaire played the title role.

0:36:120:36:15

You were in a supporting role, but a good one, a good part.

0:36:150:36:19

Toine.

0:36:190:36:20

Pam Gems based it on a book,

0:36:200:36:24

I think that Piaf's half-sister wrote, that was a new play,

0:36:240:36:28

and we improvised on the script a little bit,

0:36:280:36:32

and we created I think a lovely piece of work, a really good piece of work.

0:36:320:36:37

And although you were in the Royal Shakespeare Company,

0:36:370:36:40

even at that stage you were beginning to be picked out as a star

0:36:400:36:43

and an individual and the awards happened very quickly,

0:36:430:36:46

because there was the Olivier Award for Once In A Lifetime, which is pretty impressive.

0:36:460:36:49

You were a young actress. Did you think this is really taking off?

0:36:490:36:54

No.

0:36:540:36:56

I think, I think that season, it was '78, '79 season.

0:36:560:37:01

It was the first time I didn't put my hands across my chest,

0:37:010:37:06

or in my pockets or...

0:37:060:37:08

So that something happened in my head

0:37:080:37:13

which was more concentrated than I'd probably been.

0:37:130:37:19

That took eight years out of drama school!

0:37:190:37:21

LAUGHTER

0:37:210:37:22

I then went back to New York and did Loot, which got...

0:37:260:37:30

A Joe Orton play, another nomination.

0:37:300:37:32

And then I did Awake And Sing!, which is Clifford Odets.

0:37:320:37:37

And so, but always working with the most fantastic actors,

0:37:370:37:41

I had the most wonderful time.

0:37:410:37:43

Oh, and of course Electra.

0:37:430:37:45

Yes.

0:37:450:37:46

Electra, which was great to be on Broadway with.

0:37:460:37:49

People queuing around the block - for Sophocles.

0:37:490:37:53

That was so exciting.

0:37:530:37:54

Shakespeare, as you say, you'd gone to the Royal Shakespeare Company

0:37:540:37:57

to try to learn that, but then that began to take off.

0:37:570:38:01

Twelfth Night, Othello - the big Shakespeare roles started to come.

0:38:010:38:06

I was playing Emelia which was a lovely production by Trevor Nunn,

0:38:060:38:11

with Ian McKellen and Willard White,

0:38:110:38:12

Imogen Stubbs, Michael Grandage - I could go on.

0:38:120:38:16

So that was great too.

0:38:160:38:18

And by that stage, you were feeling at home in Shakespeare?

0:38:180:38:22

Yes. I mean, when I get stuck with Shakespeare, I always ask.

0:38:230:38:27

But to be honest, you know,

0:38:280:38:29

the most difficult Shakespeares are not on the women's side.

0:38:290:38:33

We go into the history plays really to get the trickiest bits of Shakespeare, I think.

0:38:330:38:39

Ah! We've jumped forward now to one of my favourite of your productions

0:38:390:38:42

which was just a few years ago, Much Ado About Nothing,

0:38:420:38:45

with Simon Russell Beale at the National Theatre.

0:38:450:38:48

A Nicholas Hytner production.

0:38:480:38:50

In that, I think you have one of the hardest lines in all of Shakespeare,

0:38:500:38:55

which is the scene where Benedict says,

0:38:550:38:58

"I will do anything for you" in effect, and she says,

0:38:580:39:02

-"Kill Claudio".

-"Kill Claudio".

0:39:020:39:04

Which is an astonishing line.

0:39:040:39:05

So you're in a comedy and then it becomes a tragedy,

0:39:050:39:09

or potentially one, but that must be one of the hardest lines there is.

0:39:090:39:13

No. I don't think so.

0:39:150:39:17

I think the hardest lines for Beatrice were cut, thank God!

0:39:190:39:24

Which was at the beginning of the play,

0:39:240:39:26

which are Elizabethan jokes, which, you know, you don't understand.

0:39:260:39:32

It's about Cupids and poignards and God knows what else,

0:39:320:39:37

and Nick Hytner was right saying, we won't even try these

0:39:370:39:40

because it's in the first beat of the play,

0:39:400:39:44

half the audience will be going,

0:39:440:39:46

"Er, where's the dictionary? Erm, what does this mean?"

0:39:460:39:51

And you stop an audience from enjoying and understanding or listening.

0:39:510:39:57

So thank God those lines had gone, but "kill Claudio" is the most beautiful...

0:39:570:40:02

That scene between Beatrice and Benedict is one of the most...

0:40:020:40:08

wonderful love scenes I... It's just glorious.

0:40:080:40:13

And we didn't have to rehearse very much because we both understood it,

0:40:140:40:18

and it's the first time that they admit that they love each other,

0:40:180:40:21

and at the same time she's asking him to kill this man,

0:40:210:40:25

but I know where it comes from, you know where it comes from,

0:40:250:40:28

because the story has gone before us

0:40:280:40:30

and it either gets a laugh from the audience

0:40:300:40:32

because it's quite funny - and it's also very shocking.

0:40:320:40:37

And that's why...

0:40:370:40:38

I saw it twice, that production, but you got a gasp, which I think...

0:40:380:40:42

Is the best.

0:40:420:40:43

I think if it doesn't work, you do get a laugh from the audience.

0:40:430:40:46

-If it works properly, it's chilling, as it was in that production.

-Yeah.

0:40:460:40:51

I don't remember the reaction but sometimes if kids laughed,

0:40:510:40:54

usually it's kids, but that's good.

0:40:540:40:58

That's a kind of a gasp in a way.

0:40:580:41:01

THEY CHUCKLE

0:41:010:41:02

Beginnings in TV,

0:41:020:41:04

which is how it works I suppose, you are just trying to get in to it,

0:41:040:41:07

so Village Hall, Crown Court, those kind of things.

0:41:070:41:10

It's just you go up for what there is, really,

0:41:100:41:13

just try to get into it.

0:41:130:41:15

My first one was called Sally For Keeps.

0:41:150:41:18

You know, there was a religious slot

0:41:180:41:21

and I worked with Barbara Leigh Hunt and I was very method at that time,

0:41:210:41:26

in a way still am, but that was really method.

0:41:260:41:29

Just explain. Method, which your father had been, is,

0:41:290:41:34

and this is to parody it, but if you're playing a butcher,

0:41:340:41:38

you go and try to be a butcher if you can.

0:41:380:41:41

You try to get as close as you can to the reality of it.

0:41:410:41:44

Yes. And it's also, erm...

0:41:440:41:47

You have to be ready to say what you have to say,

0:41:470:41:52

emotionally and imaginatively,

0:41:520:41:56

so you have to be the character to some extent,

0:41:560:42:00

and allow it to come

0:42:000:42:04

from an emotional base and an intellectual base,

0:42:040:42:07

so that the concentration, you have to really concentrate

0:42:070:42:10

and transform yourself into that human being.

0:42:100:42:13

It could be self-indulgent, but it can be brilliant.

0:42:130:42:17

When you say even now, to some extent, you're method,

0:42:170:42:19

but if you're playing Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing,

0:42:190:42:22

then how can you apply the method to that?

0:42:220:42:25

You could apply it in all sorts of ways.

0:42:250:42:29

You can't become an unmarried woman on the shelf,

0:42:290:42:35

because you weren't, for example?

0:42:350:42:37

No, but I nearly was an unmarried woman on the shelf.

0:42:370:42:42

Ah! So you can go back to what you...?

0:42:420:42:44

You can relate to that, it's just finding the sense memory

0:42:440:42:48

of what those experiences were or could be.

0:42:480:42:52

It's a fascinating, and I think most actors do it instinctively.

0:42:520:42:57

But there is a deeper way, the American method,

0:42:590:43:02

now by Lee Strasberg,

0:43:020:43:04

went, you know, as when I did My Week With Marilyn...

0:43:040:43:08

This is an amazing production.

0:43:080:43:10

In My Week With Marilyn, you play Paula Strasberg,

0:43:100:43:12

Marilyn Monro's acting coach,

0:43:120:43:14

wife of Lee Strasberg, the pioneer of method,

0:43:140:43:17

which your father had been part of,

0:43:170:43:19

so that was a direct connection to the theatre he came from.

0:43:190:43:23

Absolutely.

0:43:230:43:26

I couldn't find very much about Paula on the internet

0:43:260:43:29

or indeed anywhere else.

0:43:290:43:31

I only had one friend who was a publicist in New York who,

0:43:310:43:37

when I mentioned it, he's 89, and he said, "Oh no, not that woman!"

0:43:370:43:43

It was fascinating only because it was part of

0:43:430:43:46

my parents before I was born stuff,

0:43:460:43:50

so they were both there at Lee Strasberg's,

0:43:500:43:53

at the beginning of the Lee Strasberg school,

0:43:530:43:56

so that connection was wonderful in that way,

0:43:560:44:01

so that I was back in that era.

0:44:010:44:03

Paula?

0:44:030:44:04

Christ!

0:44:040:44:06

I don't get it.

0:44:060:44:08

Such a strange man, I think she'd have already figured out

0:44:080:44:11

-he only invited her here to sleep with her.

-So, what is the...?

0:44:110:44:15

The reason Marilyn can't remember the line

0:44:150:44:17

is because she doesn't believe the situation her character is in.

0:44:170:44:21

Then she should pretend to believe it.

0:44:210:44:24

Pretend?

0:44:240:44:25

We're talking about the difference between the truth

0:44:250:44:28

-and artificial crap.

-We agree. Acting is about truth.

0:44:280:44:31

If you can fake that, you'll have a jolly good career.

0:44:310:44:33

Maybe we should try for another take.

0:44:330:44:35

Marilyn needs time to give a great performance.

0:44:350:44:37

Give her as long as it takes. Chaplin took eight months to make a movie.

0:44:370:44:41

Eight months of this?

0:44:410:44:43

I'd rather kill myself.

0:44:430:44:45

We were talking about the development of a TV career.

0:44:450:44:48

Love Hurts, 1992,

0:44:480:44:49

Laurence Marks, Maurice Gran,

0:44:490:44:52

which was your first co-starring

0:44:520:44:55

-co-lead, I suppose, wasn't it, on TV?

-Yes.

0:44:550:44:58

Thank God.

0:44:590:45:00

It won't turn off. The pop-up waste is stuck.

0:45:090:45:12

The whole flat's a disaster. I bought it off a do-it-yourself

0:45:120:45:16

with the mechanical aptitude of a subnormal prawn.

0:45:160:45:19

We didn't install this, love.

0:45:190:45:20

What do you mean?

0:45:210:45:22

You said you bought this from us? But we don't stock this model.

0:45:220:45:26

Tsk, tsk. You fibbed, didn't you?

0:45:260:45:28

No, no!

0:45:280:45:29

Yes. I was desperate. You were the only plumber who answered the phone.

0:45:290:45:33

I've a reception in Mayfair in an hour! Please!

0:45:330:45:35

All right.

0:45:370:45:38

Go and get dressed, I'll sort it out.

0:45:380:45:41

Adam Faith. Now, he's reputed to be a bit of a character,

0:45:410:45:44

but what was he like to work with?

0:45:440:45:47

Adam was extremely bright.

0:45:470:45:49

Extremely bright.

0:45:490:45:51

Absolutely charming.

0:45:510:45:53

Erm, but his mind was

0:45:530:45:57

all over, I mean, he...

0:45:570:46:00

His hyperactive mind, all the time.

0:46:000:46:03

He was...

0:46:030:46:04

annoying and...

0:46:040:46:06

a really good actor.

0:46:060:46:09

He could be really good, if he concentrated

0:46:090:46:11

and that was really good.

0:46:110:46:13

-I'd also done a Paradise Postponed before that.

-Ah, John Mortimer.

0:46:130:46:17

With a John Mortimer script, which was also fascinating.

0:46:170:46:22

That was a really good bit of filming as well. I really enjoyed that.

0:46:220:46:26

Now, one of the roles for which you will always be remembered,

0:46:260:46:30

My Family started in the year 2000.

0:46:300:46:32

Susan Harper, dentist's wife,

0:46:320:46:35

when you were first offered that, did you see the...

0:46:350:46:38

You wouldn't have thought 11 years, but did you see potential?

0:46:380:46:42

No.

0:46:420:46:45

What I saw was actually quite a funny script, the first ones,

0:46:450:46:49

because it was quite quirky, something I hadn't seen before.

0:46:490:46:52

It was also written by Fred Barron initially, as an American.

0:46:520:46:57

I was going to say, this is another weird connection

0:46:570:46:59

because it was the first Anglo-American comedy, in effect,

0:46:590:47:02

because they brought Fred Barron in from American TV

0:47:020:47:05

to try to create a kind of American domestic drama

0:47:050:47:08

so there you were, an Anglo-American actress in an Anglo-American sitcom.

0:47:080:47:12

It was, the humour was a little bit more off-the-wall,

0:47:120:47:17

which I enjoyed.

0:47:170:47:19

You know, it was somebody who watched I Love Lucy

0:47:190:47:22

and Mary Tyler Moore shows.

0:47:220:47:24

To me, that was slightly more in my, in my direction.

0:47:240:47:28

We didn't know from one series to another whether it would get,

0:47:280:47:32

the BBC would pick it up or not.

0:47:320:47:34

I was watching that first episode again and it is,

0:47:340:47:37

it's very much in the American sitcom style.

0:47:370:47:40

There's a scene where you and Robert Lindsay are in bed

0:47:400:47:42

and you've been to another dentist.

0:47:420:47:45

-Oh...

-And they have a conversation about whether

0:47:450:47:48

the technique and equipment of the other dentist were superior

0:47:480:47:51

but it's obviously about two things.

0:47:510:47:53

But that seemed to me, looking at it again,

0:47:530:47:56

very, that's very kind of American sitcom.

0:47:560:47:58

Yeah. Yeah.

0:47:580:48:00

I like that. It's quick.

0:48:000:48:03

It's quick, it's fast, it's...

0:48:030:48:06

It was quite witty, because he had to stick his tongue down my throat

0:48:060:48:10

to check on the fillings. Is that the one?

0:48:100:48:12

Ha! I think that's great.

0:48:120:48:13

'That's sexy!

0:48:130:48:14

'It's sexy and odd, you know? It's good.'

0:48:140:48:17

You know, I read somewhere

0:48:170:48:19

that the older you get, the less sleep you need.

0:48:190:48:22

Really? What are you supposed to do with all that extra time?

0:48:250:48:29

I've got a few ideas.

0:48:290:48:30

Well, I'm always open to ideas.

0:48:320:48:34

That's not true, but I'm not going to argue.

0:48:340:48:37

-Oh, my God.

-What's wrong?

0:48:530:48:55

That molar. Upper right five.

0:48:550:48:57

-What about it?

-The cracked filling, you've had it repaired.

0:48:570:49:00

'11 years, though, that,'

0:49:040:49:07

the risk is boredom, isn't it?

0:49:070:49:08

Sitcoms...famously, the situation doesn't change very much.

0:49:080:49:13

It's not the boredom, actually.

0:49:140:49:16

It's usually, it's always to do with the writing.

0:49:160:49:19

It's always to do with...

0:49:190:49:22

the storylines and the writing.

0:49:220:49:24

That's why I came into this world in the first place,

0:49:250:49:29

the interest in new work and new writing,

0:49:290:49:32

and the writing sometimes wasn't...

0:49:320:49:35

..witty enough, it wasn't following

0:49:380:49:41

that kind of humour that was...

0:49:410:49:44

initially attracted it to me in the first place.

0:49:440:49:48

And that's when it starts to become frustrating.

0:49:480:49:51

But mathematically, over 11 years, there are only so many times

0:49:510:49:54

he can think she's having an affair or she can think he is.

0:49:540:49:57

-That's right.

-That's the problem.

0:49:570:49:59

-There aren't that many possible situations.

-No. There's the...

0:49:590:50:02

-What's the story? That there are only seven stories?

-Yeah.

0:50:020:50:06

Or something like that!

0:50:060:50:08

This new level of public recognition, I assume this was when,

0:50:080:50:12

like walking down the street, going to the supermarket,

0:50:120:50:15

you realise you're in a TV hit.

0:50:150:50:17

Oh, yes. That was Love Hurts.

0:50:170:50:19

That was the first time it happened to me,

0:50:190:50:21

quite dramatically, really.

0:50:210:50:24

Somebody had a minor car accident.

0:50:240:50:27

So it, you know, that's a shock.

0:50:270:50:30

-What, they saw you and drove...?

-Well, they did a double take

0:50:300:50:33

and I think they bumped into another car. It wasn't a major thing, but...

0:50:330:50:38

-I'd love to have seen the insurance form.

-I know!

0:50:380:50:40

He filled in, "I saw her from Love Hurts in the street..."

0:50:400:50:44

I know. But that's when you realise the power of television.

0:50:440:50:48

I mean, it was then, you know,

0:50:480:50:50

how many millions of viewers and then it starts,

0:50:500:50:53

now it's started to get smaller and smaller and smaller,

0:50:530:50:56

so a good audience is now what? 4 million? 6 million?

0:50:560:51:00

I don't know. It used to be 12, 18.

0:51:000:51:03

When My Family came to an end,

0:51:030:51:06

were you angry or did you just accept it?

0:51:060:51:08

Well, no, I wasn't...

0:51:100:51:11

To be honest, I was just angry as to how they handled it,

0:51:130:51:16

that was all, really, more than anything.

0:51:160:51:19

And, um, I don't mind.

0:51:190:51:22

11 years is a good, long run

0:51:220:51:24

and it was great fun when we were doing it,

0:51:240:51:26

we worked together really well,

0:51:260:51:28

we enjoyed it, we enjoyed each other's company...

0:51:280:51:31

There was a hint that they thought,

0:51:310:51:34

they pretty much said it had got tired and was too cosy, didn't they?

0:51:340:51:37

No, all I got was that

0:51:370:51:39

the BBC didn't want to have any more middle-class sitcoms,

0:51:390:51:44

which was kind of shooting yourself in the foot, really,

0:51:440:51:48

as a statement, because

0:51:480:51:50

along comes Miranda Hart, who is the most wonderful...

0:51:500:51:54

And she's not exactly working class.

0:51:540:51:56

You also famously,

0:51:560:51:58

you discovered that Mr Lindsay was getting paid more than you.

0:51:580:52:02

Oh, wow. Yes, that was a long time back.

0:52:020:52:04

I feel very strongly

0:52:040:52:07

that women should be paid the same.

0:52:070:52:09

And that's that.

0:52:120:52:13

I mean, I've always felt there's an equality,

0:52:130:52:16

there should be an equality.

0:52:160:52:17

Woman's rights should be...

0:52:170:52:20

So yes, I did find that out.

0:52:200:52:23

I found that...demeaning.

0:52:230:52:26

So when you go into, say, a West End play,

0:52:260:52:28

do you insist that you are paid the same as a male co-star?

0:52:280:52:34

It varies, depends on the play.

0:52:340:52:36

It depends on the play and it depends on the production. It depends on...

0:52:360:52:40

It always depends on who's more famous than the other.

0:52:400:52:43

You know? And who's left and who's right of the poster.

0:52:430:52:46

So in All My Sons, the Arthur Miller with David Suchet,

0:52:460:52:49

was he officially more famous than you, or...

0:52:490:52:52

Definitely.

0:52:520:52:54

Well, Poirot is such a...

0:52:540:52:56

Because in Poirot, he's Poirot and you are Ariadne Oliver.

0:52:560:52:59

-Yes.

-Although of all the roles to play in Poirot,

0:52:590:53:02

apart from Poirot, which wasn't available to you,

0:53:020:53:05

it's a fascinating one, that, isn't it? Because clearly

0:53:050:53:08

it is a self-portrait by Agatha Christie of a crime writer,

0:53:080:53:12

which is therefore one of her most interesting characters, I think.

0:53:120:53:16

Oh! Sorry! Sorry!

0:53:190:53:21

-Good gracious! It's you, Monsieur Poirot.

-Madame Oliver!

0:53:210:53:24

-What are you...?

-I'm so sorry.

-But what was it?

0:53:240:53:27

An apple core. Won't do any harm.

0:53:270:53:29

-What are you doing in the sticks? You don't live here, do you?

-No.

0:53:290:53:32

No, you live in that awful Modernist place in town.

0:53:320:53:36

So it's a murder!

0:53:360:53:37

Right.

0:53:370:53:39

-Not my hostess, I hope.

-Well, who is your hostess?

0:53:390:53:41

She lives somewhere around here.

0:53:410:53:43

A place called Laburnums. Any idea where it is?

0:53:450:53:48

I love Ariadne Oliver.

0:53:500:53:52

I think when I first was asked to do it,

0:53:520:53:57

David gave me a book,

0:53:570:54:01

to read about Agatha,

0:54:010:54:03

and you can see why

0:54:030:54:05

she created this character.

0:54:050:54:09

It's really against herself. She's...

0:54:090:54:11

talks too much, she makes assumptions,

0:54:110:54:15

she's...eccentric,

0:54:150:54:18

she changes her hair all the time,

0:54:180:54:20

I mean, Agatha has written a most wonderful human being

0:54:200:54:24

and such an antithesis to him.

0:54:240:54:27

It's great.

0:54:270:54:28

In theatre, you've achieved what I think all people want to do,

0:54:280:54:31

which is to alternate classics and new plays.

0:54:310:54:34

They've come along at various times.

0:54:340:54:36

Terry Johnson's Dead Funny,

0:54:360:54:38

-which was an extraordinary marital farce, very dark marital farce.

-Hmm.

0:54:380:54:42

But you did that, and then a few years later,

0:54:420:54:44

you did Euripides' Electra.

0:54:440:54:46

That's the ideal balance, I suppose, is it?

0:54:460:54:48

To go between classics and new plays.

0:54:480:54:51

It's fabulous.

0:54:510:54:53

It's...

0:54:530:54:55

That's why I want to be an actor.

0:54:550:54:56

And with, obviously, it's a draining and emotional play, Electra.

0:54:560:55:01

Are you one of those actresses who can switch it on and off?

0:55:010:55:04

No.

0:55:040:55:05

These women do stay with you,

0:55:070:55:10

particularly Electra.

0:55:100:55:11

I think she had to be put in a box at one point.

0:55:110:55:16

Because you'd taken too much of it?

0:55:160:55:18

Because I think, yes, they can be emotionally exhausting,

0:55:180:55:22

and Electra being one of them,

0:55:220:55:25

not surprisingly.

0:55:250:55:27

No, I did have to find a way of actually

0:55:270:55:30

not letting myself...

0:55:300:55:33

..be with her all the time.

0:55:340:55:36

It's funny how these things...

0:55:360:55:38

It's all...a mystery.

0:55:380:55:40

That's what interesting, maybe that's...

0:55:410:55:44

Does this sound pretentious?

0:55:440:55:46

-Try.

-I don't know, it's just,

0:55:460:55:49

sometimes it is a mystery to actors themselves

0:55:490:55:52

what happens to them as people

0:55:520:55:57

when they work on something.

0:55:570:56:00

And maybe that's why...

0:56:000:56:02

the English like to call them luvvies.

0:56:020:56:05

But I don't care.

0:56:060:56:08

I mean, I really don't mind, because that is part of its...

0:56:080:56:11

that's part of its fascination, I think, theatre, really.

0:56:110:56:15

It's a common complaint of actresses in the latter parts of their career

0:56:150:56:19

that the roles are not there,

0:56:190:56:20

partly because the classical roles,

0:56:200:56:24

the senior classical roles are better for men than women,

0:56:240:56:27

you have to accept it, don't you?

0:56:270:56:28

Yeah.

0:56:280:56:30

Yeah, you do. Which is sad.

0:56:300:56:33

Um...

0:56:330:56:35

It's a fact. You just have to face it

0:56:350:56:38

and get people to write more

0:56:380:56:42

for women of a certain age,

0:56:420:56:44

over 40 would help.

0:56:440:56:46

There are two things you said several times during this interview,

0:56:480:56:51

that you're not very bright and not very attractive,

0:56:510:56:54

but is that a shtick or is that,

0:56:540:56:56

do you really feel insecure about those things?

0:56:560:56:58

Well, that's probably a very bad habit.

0:57:000:57:03

Erm...

0:57:030:57:04

I think that's what I felt in my youth.

0:57:060:57:08

A lot.

0:57:100:57:11

I didn't feel that I fitted into a norm.

0:57:110:57:15

And...

0:57:150:57:17

You just, come on, you have to accept who you...what you look like.

0:57:190:57:24

And I suppose I do, to some extent, now.

0:57:240:57:27

And it works on screen, clearly, doesn't it? Your face.

0:57:270:57:31

Yeah. I hope so.

0:57:310:57:32

Well, it has by now, anyway.

0:57:320:57:35

The traditional final question for actors, which we touched on already,

0:57:350:57:39

are there specific roles you have in mind

0:57:390:57:41

or will you just wait and see what comes along?

0:57:410:57:43

No, I have no specific roles in mind,

0:57:430:57:47

at all.

0:57:470:57:48

That's the fun of it, I suppose.

0:57:510:57:54

And you can, there's no retirement age either, but you would go on,

0:57:540:57:57

if the roles come, you'll go on as long as you can?

0:57:570:58:00

Yeah, gosh, yes!

0:58:000:58:03

We like what we do, and it's not a hobby.

0:58:030:58:07

It's, it's an ongoing...

0:58:070:58:09

..discovery, I think, in a way,

0:58:120:58:15

and also, I suppose,

0:58:150:58:18

you want things that you haven't done before.

0:58:180:58:21

Yeah.

0:58:240:58:26

-Zoe Wanamaker, thank you.

-Thank you.

0:58:260:58:29

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