Episode 1 Paisley: Genesis to Revelation - Face to Face with Eamonn Mallie

Ian Richard Kyle Paisley had the most extraordinary career in

Northern Ireland politics. From militant preacher and street

protester... To occupying the highest political office in the

land. Never, never, never! From raucous outsider to genial partner

in government. His was a life lived in the public eye. I have known the

Paisleys for over three decades. Lasted, Ian Paisley agreed to talk

to me at length about his role in Northern Ireland's tempestuous and

more tranquil years. These conversations reveal dramatic and

dark secrets of the Democratic Unionist Party. The Scriptures tell

us that so-called friends are probably secret enemies. They will

force 's obituary writers to reassess his place in history. It

was wrong. It wasn't one man, one vote. That's no way to run a

country. These programmes will challenge many of his actions over

the years. Is that acceptable? Is it good enough to talk about

difficulties? It's all right for you to sit there and say that. These

were serious days. They will unmask the hidden world of the Free

Presbyterian Church and disclose how Ian Paisley's tenure as moderator

ended. If that means I should be kicked in the gutter, kick me in the

gutter. If that means I should be chased out of the church, and that I

should be rejected as a reject, I have to bear that. That is part of

the cross. The programmes will explain why, after years dedicated

to smashing Sinn Fein, Ian Paisley ultimately did a deal with

Republicans. If we had turned back, God help us, we don't know what we

would have come to. How do you define yourself? Are you

British, are you an Ulsterman, are you Irish, or are you a combination

of all of these? I describe myself as a child of God first of all. I

think that many of these things overlap in Amman's life. I know

quite a number of Roman Catholic people who are very strongly

unionist. I know other Protestant people who perhaps would say we

should leave Britain and have a united Ireland. I think that there

have been changes because of the make up of people. I'm not asking

about other people but I'm asking about you, Ian Paisley. How would

you define yourself? I don't need to define myself. I am already known.

People have put a label on me, it could be a false label. Would you

ever consider yourself in any sense Irish? I am not ashamed to be called

an Irishman. I was down recently in Dublin and was entertained by the

president. And taken in and treated like a buddy. There was a time where

that would have been described as taking the soup. But if the soup was

good why not take it? As a Ballymena man, if you get it for nothing, that

is a bonus! Ian Paisley was born in 1926 in uncertain times, just five

years after island was partitioned and governments established in

Belfast and Dublin. His father, James, a Baptist minister in Armagh

City, had been a member of Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteer Force is

opposed to independence for Ireland. The political environment in the

early 1920s was still volatile, as Ian Paisley's father was to find

out. He was very jolly. Very happy man. And he had a little Austin 6

car, which was quite a car. And he went around the country, visiting

and preaching. After my birth, he was out visiting one night, and he

ran into 50 men, all armed on the roadside. And they pulled him out of

this thing and put him against the wall and they were going to shoot

him. They were gunman who wanted a united Ireland, and they thought

that my father was a danger to that. What they have known him? Yes, my

father was very well-known. And then a man came in and he shouted and he

said, "how do you touch this man? His wife has just had their second

child and it would be very unlucky to us if we did this." So, they had

a conference and they decided to let him go if you would never mention

what he had seen. So the reason he got away was me because I had been

born. So, you are the little miracle that arrived and saved his life?

That's right, that's right, amazing! At the age of two, Ian Paisley's

family moved from Armagh to Ballymena where his father was

appointed minister to kill Street Baptist Church. -- Hill Street

Baptist Church. It was his Scottish born mother Isabella who was

responsible for his evangelical conversion. I was converted at a

meeting that my mother was conducting among children. She was

speaking on the good Shepherd giving his good life for the sheep. And I

was touched greatly at that time, although I was only six years of

age. At the end of the meeting, I said to my mother, "I would like to

be -- I would not like to be a lost sheep, I'd rather be a saved lamb. "

, she said, " let's go to the church." So we went down, and it was

at that seat that my mother got to meet Neal and appointed me to

Christ. Did you go on holidays? Which always went on holidays. Where

did you go? The place we went to was Killowen, outside Warrenpoint. Did

you ever journey southwards? Did you ever go down to Carlingford? Oh,

yes, I would have been to Carlingford. Did you naturally come

into contact with the local Catholics there? I did, though aye.

Did you mingle, easily? Yes, we prayed together, -- we played

together. On the 12th of July, we went to Warrenpoint, and then we all

went in August day to them to their place. So, did you march with the

Hibernian is for the craic? No, they never let me in! After leaving the

school at 16, Ian Paisley went to work on the farm family friend,

George Watson in County Tyrone. I learned to plough, I learned to sew.

The Bible entered my mind very much when I was there and I remember one

day out in the field I stopped the powering. I got down on my knees and

I told the Lord that I was willing to go where he wanted me to go, to

say what he wanted me to say. And that to be a preacher of the gospel.

And I then said to the man I was living with, I said, " next Sunday,

I want to say a word at the church. " Which I did. I thought I could

give a long sermon. It lasted for three minutes! So, it was a

disaster. It was a humbling, a very humbling thing for me. Ian Paisley

then moved to a school events -- to a school of evangelism in Wales to

study theology. He quickly started to make a name for himself as a

preacher before returning to Belfast to complete his studies. His first

ministry was at Ravenhill Evangelical Mission Church in east

Belfast. There he started organising revival missions and was soon

attracting large crowds wherever he went.

How did you end up being invited to preach in Crossgar? While, the

committee of the Crossgar Mission Hall went to Ballymena during the

great meeting... Missions I had there. And they were absolutely

thrilled. And they then met me and said, "could you not come and do the

same in Crossgar? " though this invitation came from a small Mission

Hall, it was to have far reaching consequences for the local

Presbyterian Church. The Mission Hall was too small. So they decided

to ask the church for the use of the church hall. But then the kirk

session of the church, which is the ruling body, decided they were going

to have this mission and then, suddenly, the presbytery stepped in

above their heads and closed the door of the church. I mean, it was

something that should not have been done. This, in turn, led to a split

from which emerged Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church.

Congregations sprang up across Northern Ireland throughout the

1950s. These new churches were started by people attracted to Ian

Paisley's fundamentalist message. At a great cost, over 400 years ago,

the martyrs and reformers and confesses broke the shackles of

popish superstition and witchcraft and recovered the gospel in what is

known in history as the great Reformation. I am a Reformation

Protestant. Nobody escaped Yorath. Nobody. In 1959, you spoke of the

Queen Mother and Princess Margaret in the following words when they had

an audience with the Pope. You accuse them of committing spiritual

fornication and adultery with the Antichrist. Wasn't that

extraordinary? Oh, no, that was the language of

Luther, that was the language of Calvin, that was the language of

Protestantism. And I have no apology to make for my, for being a

Protestant. Ian Paisley's attacks on the

Catholic Church were becoming ever more confrontational.

Denounced interim as adults Paisley, he was the focal point of the

demonstration. In 1962 he even took his protest

against Catholicism to the Vatican. I mean, they were trying to sell the

thing that the Reformation was a mistake, that there's no Reformation

Protestants now, there's no men that believe the Bible, the Bible, only

the religion of Protestants, and they were very active and the time

had come for a stand to be taken. Come 1963, Pope John XXIII dies.

Yes. You are reported as having said,

"The Rom?ish man of sin is now in hell."

Uh?huh. How could you stand over that

remark? Well, I don't know whether I said

that or not. Do you think I'm making that up?

No, no, I think that people make up things and put them into my mouth

and say them. Would that be your sentiment though,

would that be the way you would think at that point in time about

the death of the Pope, "the Rome-ish man of sin is in hell". Is that how

you would have thought at that stage?

No, I think that anybody who is not saved by the grace of God will be

lost in hell forever. The spirit of Edward Carson, the

father figure of unionism, ran in the veins of Ian Paisley in his

opposition to Dublin's involvement in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

As the Ulster and the loyalists shall walk...

More and more he was identifying with individuals in the tradition of

Carson. Foremost among these was a former policeman. District Inspector

John William Nixon. Why was DI Nixon, a former police officer, a

dissident Unionist in many ways? Yes. An MP. Why was Nixon so

important in your life? Well, he was important in my life

because he was the impersonation of the battle and what it really was

about in Northern Ireland. And of course that was the... A stand taken

against those that would take away our flag, would take away our

position in the Union. But how prudent was it for you as an

emerging young politician, clergyman, to be identified with a

man against whom the allegations had been made that he had been involved

in murder? And secondly, was it wise for somebody like you to be

identified with him? Well, I liked the man that was

prepared to stand up for what he believed in and I... Everything is

said, was said about you in those days if you interfered with the

Official Unionist people they felt that they would just snub you out,

but some people were not going to be snubbed out.

From now on Ian Paisley was regularly involved in one street

protest or another against any expression of Irish nationalism. The

tricolour was regularly flown in places like west Belfast. Ian

Paisley protested against the presence of a green white and gold

flag in the window of the Divis Street headquarters of the

Republican Party and demanded that it be taken down. Rioting broke out

and lasted for two nights when the Government capitulated and ordered

the police to remove the flag. You knew the geography of the city

better than anybody else? Yes.

You walked the streets, you knew the people. Was it prudent of you to go

into Divis Street in 1964 to remove a flag, from the Republican office

there. Surely that was a pretty provocative thing to do?

No, well I didn't remove anything. But you led the protest which urged

that the flag be removed. Yes, yes.

You can't exonerate yourself from it?

Well, that was my attitude and I believe I was right in what I did.

Despite the fact that you triggered a riot two nights in a row and that

people got injured, was that prudent...

I never. The riot was rioting, the people who rioted are the people

will have to pay for that, not me. Ian Paisley's line of attack was now

two-fold: the defense of Protestantism and bolting the door

on Dublin. An invitation to Stormont in 1967 by

Northern Ireland's Prime Minister Terence O'Neill to his Irish

counterpart, Taoiseach Jack Lynch, provided another opportunity for Ian

Paisley to protest. Was it not the convention of the

time that neighbour, neighbourly prime ministers would be invited

from country to country? No, no.

Was that not... Was that not normal? There was a time, know perfectly

well, there was a time that no Unionist would have been invited to

Dublin and no "Shinners" or others would have been invited from Dublin

to here. In opposing what Ian Paisley saw as

the Protestant churches embrace of ecumenism, the mainstream

Presbyterian's annual general Assembly at Church House became a

regular target. In 1966 Ian Paisley led a march to

the Assembly through the predominantly nationalist area of

Cromac Street with almost predictable consequences.

Why, Mr Paisley, did you feel compelled to protest against the

meeting of the General Assembly in 1966?

Because I always had a protest. Well, I always had a protest...

Why? Because that was part of our

exposure of what was happening in the Assembly.

What was worrying you about their behaviour at that point in time

though? Well, there was certainly a very

strong ecumenical movement abroad in the Church in those days.

But did you not know that there was always the potential, the danger for

trouble... No, I never...

When you engaged in these street protests?

If you're trying to justify today what was done at Cromac Street, you

need to go and talk to the people who were responsible for that, not

to me. Also in 1966 Ian Paisley launched

his own newspaper, the Protestant Telegraph, to spread his political

and religious message. His firebrand oratory in attacking the Catholic

Church was uncompromising. We are going to keep the

thoroughfares open for our Protestant heritage.

Mr Paisley, you are reported after a rally in 1968 as saying the

following: "Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with

petrol bombs. Catholic churches were attacked and burned because there

were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners."

Uh?huh. Did you say that? Did you believe that?

I don't know. I have no memory of saying that, but it was true that

there were guns in the churches, and it was true that there was men in

the Roman Catholic churches who used the churches as a safe place to

hide. But were you directly implicating

priests in concealing guns in churches and giving cover to IRA men

in churches? Well, I said what I said. I have

nothing to add to it. You also said that the massive

discrimination in employment and allocation of public housing for

Catholics existed because 'they breed like rabbits and multiply like

vermin'; would you stand over that today?

Well, I have no record of that on what I said.

Do you think you might have said it? No, I don't think I would have said

it. I don't. You were reported as having said it?

Aye, well, I mean they would have reported anything.

Addressing a crowd in Loughgall in County Armagh...

Yes. You are reported as having said the

following, "I am anti?Roman Catholic but God being my judge I love the

poor dupes who are ground down under that system."

Yes, so I do. I love them and I want to bring them to a place of freedom

in the Gospel, the same way as I love the Protestants.

And you're not walking away from that statement?

Well, if I said it I would, I have no apology to make for saying it,

but I don't know where you get these quotes from, some of them are...

You are well reported, sir. Well reported, aye, and over

reported. "The Provisional IRA is the military

wing of the Roman Catholic Church", you said at one stage?

Yes. Did you genuinely believe that?

Well, it was, it's true. It stands true in history, they have been the

people at the Church of Rome used to forward their interests, yes.

I want to give you another little colourful quote.

Yes, yes. "The dog will return to its vomit,

the washed sow will return to its wallowing in the mire, but by God's

grace we will never return to Popery again. No Pope here". 1982.

That's right. Yes, that's... Wasn't that very colourful?

Yes, very colourful, very right. You do, you don't expect me to go to

Rome, do you? Are you trying to convert me?

In the mid 1960s a student led protest began in Northern Ireland

with Queen's University as its hub. This campaign was influenced by the

civil rights movement in America, which was demanding equal rights for

black people. Here the demands were for equal voting rights for

Catholics, equal job opportunities and the fair allocation of housing.

This civil rights movement was Ian Paisley's next target. A

counter-demonstration organized by Ian Paisley against a civil rights

march, in Armagh City in November 1968 resulted in serious rioting.

Everything has been done by the police to hinder the rightful

Assembly of Protestants. Less than two weeks later, amidst a

worsening situation, the modernising Prime Minister Terence O' Neill went

on television and pledged change and reform but did not concede one man

one vote, a fundamental demand for of the civil rights movement.

Ulster stands at the crossroads. I believe you will know me well enough

now to appreciate that I am not a man given to extravagant language

but bully boy tactics we saw in Armagh are no answer to these grave

problems. What they incur for as the contempt of Britain and the world.

To this day Unionist politicians rarely admit to discrimination

against Catholics or that the regime of the time rigged and gerrymandered

electoral boundaries to its advantage.

Places like Derry and Fermanagh, where there were Nationalist

majorities, the Council was still controlled by Unionists numerically.

Was that fair? No, it wasn't fair. A fair

Government is that every man has the same power to vote for what he

wants. In Dungannon in 1963 there were over

300 families on the waiting list for a house and no Catholic had been

allocated a permanent house for 34 years. How acceptable was that?

That wasn't acceptable at all, so it wasn't.

Was that British justice? No, it wasn't justice at all. Then

those that put their hands to that were, have to carry some of the

blunt and blame for what has happened in our country.

What do you mean by that? Well, simply what I mean. I mean

that if you vote down democracy you're responsible for bringing in

anarchy and they brought in anarchy and they set family against family

and friend against friend. In Derry's Guild Hall in 1967

Unionists held 60% of the seats. Yet Unionism had only 32% of the

vote. Yes.

Did you think that was fair? No. There should be, but that's the

way it was. The whole system was wrong, it wasn't one man, one vote.

I mean, that's no way to run any country, there should be absolute

freedom and there should be absolute liberty.

What might be baffling and puzzling, Mr Paisley, to many people listening

to what you have just said, is why you were so determined to oppose the

demand for one man, one vote as advocated by people like John Hume

and Austin Currie at that point in time?

Because the Civil Rights Movement was a movement that actually was a

united Ireland movement. How can you say that?

Well, that's what they were doing. They were associating themselves

with a battle that the ordinary decent, law-abiding Protestant could

not associate themselves with. How can you say that? Weren't John

Hume and Austin Currie, and people like them, simply asking for British

civil rights, the rights to vote? Yes.

What was wrong with that? Those were British rights. How can you say that

they were associating with the united Ireland or the united

Irelanders if they were simply asking for British civil rights, the

right to vote? Because the Civil Rights Movement

was tied up with threats and was tied up with other things, it wasn't

only in that. Did you see it as a front for a

united Ireland then? Yes, it was part of the, part of the

overall cauldron that was burning and was being heated by various sort

of sections of the community to get their own way. The frequency of

civil rights marchers in various towns and cities throughout Northern

Ireland in pursuit of reform culminated in the battle of the

Bogside in Derry City in August 1969. Faced with a beleaguered Royal

Ulster Constabulary, the British government sent troops onto the

streets for only the second time since the inception of the state.

Ian Paisley was relentless in his verbal attacks on Terence O'Neill,

portraying him as feeble. His support was growing in a restless

unionist community. His popularity was further enhanced in the wake of

two spells in jail arising from his street agitation. In 1969, Terence

O'Neill resigned as Prime Minister. The following year, Ian Paisley

replaced him as the Stormont MP for Bannside and, months later, he won

the Westminster seat for North Antrim. Ian Richard Kyle Paisley,

7981. In 1971, Ian Paisley formed his own political party, the

Democratic Unionist Party, along with Desmond Boal, a barrister and

Unionist MP, who had been one of Terence O'Neill's harshest critics.

This was the start of a very long friendship. These were turbulent

days in Northern Ireland. Bloody Sunday was a watershed. What was

your reaction when you heard about 13 people having been shot dead on

the streets of Derry on 30 of January 1972? Oh, I was very angry

that that is what it had come to. I felt it was a very dangerous thing.

And then an attempt to cover it for what it was not. I mean, the enquiry

afterwards proved that some of these people, they had neither weapons nor

were they using weapons, they were just making a protest within the

law. Were you a bit embarrassed, though, when David Cameron

ultimately 35 years later apologised and said in Parliament that the

killings were unjustified and wrong? I wasn't embarrassed. I was

glad to hear him for the first time as a British leader telling the

truth about it. Saying what really did happen. Worried by the

escalating violence and exasperated by the pace of political reform,

London suspended the Northern Ireland government and took control

of security, introducing direct rule for the first time. A conference of

the British and Irish governments and local parties, but not the DUP,

met at Sunningdale in England to work out how political power could

be restored. Agreement was reached to set up a power-sharing executive

giving nationalists cabinet positions for the first time. This

accord also aimed at giving the Irish government and ongoing input

in the affairs of Northern Ireland. The creation of this new

administration in 1974, headed by the Ulster Unionist Party leader

Brian Faulkner, triggered another crisis. What was so wrong with the

idea of the SDLP and the Alliance Party, and members and

representatives of the Catholic nationalist community being in

government, being part of an administration, really Northern

Ireland? Well, the people of Northern Ireland made that choice,

that would be fine with me, but they didn't make that choice. This was

something being forced on us. What do you say to your critics and the

critics of that time who would argue that the opposition to a Council of

Ireland, to any involvement of Dublin in the affairs of Northern

Ireland, was a smoke screen to stop Catholics having any power in the

government of Northern Ireland? I don't accept that at all in the

sense that you are saying they are saying it. They wanted to destroy

Northern Ireland and the people in Westminster were in it up over their

heads. They wanted rid of us, too, so they did.

Ian Paisley's tone was growing increasingly belligerent.

A loose coalition of dissident Unionist politicians, Protestant

workers and loyalist paramilitary 's, including the militant Ulster

Defence Association, came together, intent on destroying the new

power-sharing administration. Their action became known as the Ulster

Workers' Council Strike. Ian Paisley played a central role.

How did you feel, though, about sitting down with Andy teary, the

leader of the Ulster Defence Association, given that his people

were on the streets, involved in wholesale intimidation, forcing

people to close down their businesses, stopping people from

going to work, and going about their daily duties as a citizen, as a

Democrat? I was sitting at a table, not to talk to people like that. And

the situation was just simply this - we had to get this thing finished

with, and I certainly believed that there was a merit... There was a

merit in having a Council strike. And did you not feel this was a

violation of make a violation of democracy from your perspective if

people were taking the law into their own hands, or you essentially

challenging the very essence of rule of law? I was not. I use saying that

the people who asked on the street, call blocking roads, who were

seizing cars, are you saying they were OK? You're putting out a broad

thing and just think everybody that took part in this was a lawless

person, and were prepared to break the law. That is not so. And they

didn't break the law. The country went on, the country went on. It's

businesses went on. It's tomography went on. -- its democracy went on.

But it was not business as usual. 60% of businesses ended up paralysed

with the power station workers bringing life close to a standstill.

Worse was to follow. Loyalist Parliamentary is now switched their

focus to the Republic of Ireland, killing 33 people into Mac attacks.

-- in two attacks. On May 17, 1974, bombs went off in Dublin and

Monaghan. Just how much of a shock was that to your system? Well, I was

shocked. Very much shocked that there was anyone going to be heard

in that way. But, I mean, who brought that on themselves was the

people that... That own political leaders and they had endorsed in

what their attitude to Northern Ireland. And, at that time, the

attitude of the southern government in Northern Ireland was ridiculous,

so it was. Are you saying the bombing of Dublin and Monaghan was

justified because of the political action of the Irish government

supporting a Council of Ireland? I don't believe in killing and never

have. That me ask you, when those bombings took place in Dublin,

blamed on the Ulster Volunteer Force, did you think about walking

away from the strike? I had nothing to do with that. I had nothing to do

with that and I'd announced the people who had done it. What more

could I do? Surely you connected those bombs that exploded in Dublin

with what was going on in the streets of Northern Ireland? Did you

consider walking away from the strike in the interest of maybe

stopping other killings? I took my stand. I denounced what was wrong. I

could not say to the people, "just to sit down and let them put a rope

around your neck." 11 days later, the Faulkner led

power-sharing executive collapsed. Ian Paisley and the Ulster Workers'

Council had achieved their goal. If you are not prepared to govern

Northern Ireland, like any other part of the United Kingdom, then let

the Ulster people do their job for themselves!

The IRA, meanwhile, stepped up its campaign at home and in Britain.

With direct rule restored, Northern Ireland lurched from crisis to

crisis and from atrocity to atrocity, with the rival

paramilitary organisations bombing and shooting. In London, Ian Paisley

was increasingly seen as part of the problem. There are those who would

have charged if you kept stirring the pot. Jim Callaghan accused you

of using the language of forecast in a biblical mould. Edward Heath

called you a demagogue and a wrecker. Roy Mason remembered you a

demagogue and a wrecker. Roy Mason remembered US and overshoot bully

and a poisonous beget. What do you say to those allegations? I just

laughed at them. They did a lot for Northern Ireland, so they did, they

did a lot for Northern Ireland. And when I read that stuff now, and you

read it to me, I really have a chuckle because I certainly didn't

think I was doing so well. Ian Paisley led a second strike in 1977

demanding tougher action against the IRA and a return to Unionist

majority rule at Stormont. Use of the great decisions were

taken by elected leaders but to, yet, there were hundreds of UDA men

on the street who weren't elected by anyone. They were affiliated with

people who are killing, with people who were lying in jail convicted of

murder. Where did that sit with you as a Democrat? Or you

uncomfortable? Did it ever occur to you that you wished you haven't been

affiliated with those people? The people we were working with, the

majority of them were men with clean hands and right spirits. And, of

course, in any situation like this, you would have a degree of

difficulty. And we had our difficulties but I think that we

came out of them well. Is that acceptable? Is it good enough? It's

all right for you to sit there and me to sit here in comfort at this

time and said that these were serious days. We have the Kingsmill

massacre. We have all of these things coming in. Surely, the time

had come when people had to take the risk of their own lives. So, all I

am saying, I take my hat off to the people of Northern Ireland who

stood, and stood well, in a very ethical situation. -- in a very

difficult time. This time, the strike did not attract support.

Despite a pledge to quit public life if it failed, the DUP leader

continued his agitation. The arrival of a new Conservative government in

May 1979, headed by Margaret Thatcher and encouraged Unionists to

expect a tough IRA stance. Where there is discord, may we bring

harmony. If there is -- may where there is doubt, may we bring faith.

Where there is despair, may we bring hope. Only two months earlier, a

close adviser and hardline Northern Ireland's spokesman Airey Neave had

been murdered by Republicans. Had you believe she would be a good

friend to Northern Ireland? Yes, I thought she would be a good friend

to Northern Ireland but I was sadly disappointed.

On a single day in the first months of misses that Chuck's premiership,

the IRA killed the Queen's Club is in old Mountbatten and some members

of his family at Michael Moore in the Republic and 18 soldiers at

narrow water near Warrenpoint, County Down. But this mounting

violence failed to call Anglo-Irish relations. In 1980, the Prime

Minister flew into Dublin to be embraced by the controversial

T-shirt Charles J Haughey. Out of that historic meeting urged an

agreement to conduct joint studies on areas of common interest. This

became known as the totality of relationships, a development which

was anathema to Ian Paisley. How much of a betrayal did you feel that

was by Mrs Thatcher when she went to Dublin, embraced Charles J Haughey

and engaged in this arrangement, this agreement?

I think that it really stirred people that here we have the Prime

Minister going in and having this sort of "love-in" with the South. I

don't think that she should have been negotiating with Dublin at all

on the future of this part of the United Kingdom.

This hardened the DUP leader's resolve. He embarked on a series of

actions in the style of his role model Edward Carson, the Unionist

leader who had led the resistance to Irish Independence at the start of

the 20th century. The first of these was a rally of 500 men, the

so-called Paisley's Army, at night on a county Antrim hillside. They

didn't carry guns but waved firearm certificates to demonstrate their

access to weapons. This is only a small token of many

thousands of men who have pledged to me and I am pledged to them to stand

together at this time of grave trouble in Northern Ireland.

What message were you hoping to send out to the outer world given the

presence of those men brandishing those gun licences?

In that Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right and there will be no

surrender. Who came up with that idea to form

'Paisley's Army' on the side of that mountain? Whose idea was that?

It was my idea. It was a warning to Mrs Thatcher and to the powers that

be in Westminster and it was a warning also to the Nationalist

people of Northern Ireland and the whole of Ireland that there were

people who would not be run and bargained over and their future

bargained over by Mrs Thatcher or anyone else.

Throughout 1981 Northern Ireland woke up to reports of huge Carson

Trail Rallies and quasi-paramilitary gatherings of the self-styled Third

Force. Ian Paisley was mobilising to thwart the IRA.

As this was happening Republicans in the Maze jail embarked on a series

of hunger strikes, demanding to be treated as political prisoners. The

death of Bobby Sands, followed by nine others, led to an upsurge in

electoral support for Sinn Fein. If an IRA man comes to a Protestant

home and my men are there, they will kill that IRA man.

What if they are in conflict with the British security forces? If they

are coming to join up with the IRA to kill Protestants, we will be in

conflict with them. How dangerous a statement was that

coming from you? It wasn't dangerous.

As a political leader? It was a statement that needed to be

made. I mean, this was a matter of life or death.

Despite Ian Paisley's protests, Dublin's growing involvement in the

affairs of Northern Ireland continued. It culminated in the then

Taoiseach Dr Garret FitzGerald and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher

signing the Anglo Irish Agreement at Hillsborough Castle in 1985. This

gave Dublin a consultative role in political and security matters in

Northern Ireland. But did Mrs Thatcher betray you,

though, when she afforded Dublin a foothold in the affairs of Northern

Ireland through the Anglo Irish Agreement signed in November 1985?

Do you think she betrayed you? Yes, oh, it was a surrender

document. And even very mild Unionists would admit that. I mean,

it did unite the Unionist people. I mean, for the first time I could sit

in company with Ulster Unionists who saw the same way as I was seeing.

In the aftermath of the signing of the Anglo Irish Agreement, the DUP

leader raged against the Thatcher Government. The Iron Lady was now

public enemy number one. Ian Paisley and a broad section of Unionism held

a mass rally at Belfast City Hall. Write to the terrorist 's return to

full century? To the Irish Republic. And then Mrs Thatcher

tells us that that Republic must have say in our province. We say

never! Never! Never! Was that a spur of the moment

remark, that, "Never, never, never" remark you made?

It was a spur of the moment because in situations like that I allow my

heart to guide me and the fact that you are bringing this today shows it

rung a bell. You further added, "This is a war

and that no one mince words about it. People have already been hurt,

people will be hurt and sacrifices will have to be made. We're going to

marshal and organise and mobilize the forces of those who are opposed

to this Anglo Irish Agreement, the Government will have to learn that

they cannot force down the throats of the Protestant people this

abominable Agreement." Wasn't that a challenge to the State?

Yes, it was a challenge and we won - we have won.

But wasn't that very incendiary language to be using, sir?

Oh, but it needed to be, this was no joke.

This wasn't a display of men who just wanted to clear their throats.

Every man that went out was prepared to give their life.

While Ian Paisley was in America in August the following year - he

learned that his Democratic Unionist Party deputy Peter Robinson was

grabbing the headlines. He had marched with several hundred

supporters across the border into the village of Clontibret in County

Monaghan in the early hours of the morning. Peter Robinson wanted to

demonstrate the alleged absence of border security. The episode was to

create tensions between the DUP leader and his deputy.

Will continue to protest against the lack of security...

A member of your family said to me that you considered Peter Robinson a

silly ass for doing what he did. Did you think he was a silly ass to do

what he did? Well, I don't think that I used that

expression, but it should not have been done.

There was a feeling within your family, some members of your family,

that he might have been making a bid for the leadership at that point in

time? Everybody has a right to decide for

themselves what their answer to that is. I think he thought that was

going to be a tremendous uprising as a result of all that and that didn't

happen. Did you suspect that Peter Robinson

might shift or move to the Ulster Unionist Party at that point in time

when he stepped down as your deputy leader?

No, because the Ulster Unionists didn't like him, so they didn't.

Peter Robinson disputes that account of the origins of the protest,

saying that Ian Paisley had agreed to go. He ended up paying a fine of

17,500 Punt. How damaging was that to your party at that point in time,

the fact that people in the street in his own community referred to him

as Peter the Punt? Well, I mean that's... That's the

thing that he has to bear. I mean, he did it and he must take account

for it and it's so unimportant, you know, in the light of what was

happening, it was only like a fella scratching a match and the match

burns out and that's when he throws it away.

Neither the Anglo Irish Agreement nor the loyalist protests succeeded

in curbing IRA violence in Northern Ireland or Britain. The bombing of a

Remembrance Day Service in Enniskillen was the most notorious

of many atrocities in this period. Nevertheless, the Government was

prepared to embark on secret talks with the IRA. But this did not stop

the IRA taking its campaign to the heart of Government. The Cabinet

itself had a narrow escape when Downing Street was attacked with

mortar bombs. I think it was a cracker for the IRA

they were, they did well out of it, so they did, that they could go

right in and do that. I thought it should have put more of a strength

into the muscle of the Cabinet to go out and deal with IRA the way they

should have been dealt with. But the British Government

steadfastly kept the lines of communication open to the Republican

leadership. Eventually this led to the IRA cease-fire in the summer of

1994. Jim Molyneaux, the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party at that

point in time, said of the IRA cease-fire, "It was the worst thing

that ever happened to us." Did you share that view at that time?

Yes, certainly. Why did no Unionists see any merit

in that IRA cease-fire announcement at that time?

Well, I think that the people had been so let down that they had no

trust in the British Government getting us a proper road to getting

out of the killings and getting out of the agitations made to try and

destroy what our forefathers had fought for and died for.

Meanwhile a road map to peace had been identified and Ian Paisley

would be asked to swallow even tougher medicine. With the

full-blown intervention of London, Dublin and Washington in the affairs

of Northern Ireland, protracted talks chaired by US Senator George

Mitchell resulted in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

I am pleased to announce that the two governments in the political

parties in Northern Ireland have reached agreement.

Ian Paisley's great political rival, David Trimble the leader of the

Ulster Unionist Party - agreed a deal giving Republicans seats in

Government and guaranteeing that all Paramilitary prisoners would be set

free within two years. As the final touches were being put

to the Agreement, Ian Paisley and members of his Party brought their

opposition to the heart of the talks at Stormont.

Let me say to you tonight... Let me say... Let me... I wish you would

walk out. Yes, 71.12%.

The people of Ireland, north and south ratified the outcome of the

Good Friday Agreement in a referendum just over a month later.

Ian Paisley was once more on the outside.

# Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio.# At that moment in time, sir, how did

you feel as an outsider? Did you feel?

No. Disturbed?

No. Isolated, alone?

No, because the Official Unionists were divided on the issue, very much

divided. What was wrong with that deal, why

did you not accept such a deal? Because you don't sign a deal that's

going to, in the end, destroy you. Of the Good Friday Agreement you

said, "It was the greatest betrayal ever foisted by a Unionist leader on

the Unionist people." That's right, so it was. Is that how you saw it?

So it was, it was a selling-out of all that we stood for and all that

our fathers died for and the people I was speaking for were the people

who gave their lives in two World Wars to keep us in a place of

freedom. And this thing goes into the very

core of the Ulsterman and the Ulster Unionist and I don't think it's

understood. Ulster Unionists can fight things among themselves and be

very cruel in themselves, but there is a place where we all join

together and where blood is mixed with blood and bones are mixed with

bones; we say, "So far, but no farther".

What was it all about? Getting rid of Ian Paisley. In whose

interest is? The people who got... Took over.

They did a dirty tricks on him, dirty deeds on him. In the end, he

was left with no option but to stand down.

We are talking about road on road. How hurtful were those rocks?

They were absolutely disgraceful and they were disgraceful because the

man that they put in my position could keep his own seat.

They assassinated him by their words and deeds. I think they heeded him

shamefully. These people had only one thing to

serve and that was their own ego.