Proms Extra: Episode 6 BBC Proms


Proms Extra: Episode 6

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Welcome to Proms Extra, we're your window on to the Proms

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Tonight we're all about passion and spirit as we reflect

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And inside the Hall the Proms action continues with a flourish.

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Inside our grand studio we have three award winning guests who have

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pledged to be enthusiastic, controversial and learned.

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No pressure then on not one but two saxophonists,

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YolanDa Brown and Soweto Kinch, plus the conductor, John Butt.

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, Thank you for having us. YolanDa, you have been busy, got a new album

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out? It has been exciting, I have been putting ?1 in the job every

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time I say exciting. But sharing it with a new audience. Posh reggae. I

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am not calling it jazz, posh reggae. Something new for a good time

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feeling. It was nice to come into the Jazz Forum and be in The Royal

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Albert Hall and the auditorium for the Ella Fitzgerald and Dizzy

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Gillespie celebration. It was a great night. Talking of great

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nights, John, have you recovered, come down or are you still buzzing

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from your prom? Still buzzing, but I have been doing university work this

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week so I have had to put my brain into a certain degree of straight

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gear. Yes, up and down, basically. The variety of you like is

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interesting. It is interesting at times. And Soweto, you have had your

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festival? Yes, enjoying jazz now I getting up close and personal with

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the musicians I admire. Really enjoying that show.

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Last night BBC four hosted the Charles Mingus Prom,

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a tribute to the late, great, double bassist.

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Why is Charles Mingus such an important name in the name of jazz?

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He stands at a certain juncture in terms of how the music evolved. The

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outset of bebop, and he was considered an innovator among Dizzy

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Gillespie and Charlie Parker who co-defined what we call bebop. His

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approach was so broad and big in terms of scope, in terms of his

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albums, he didn't write conventional forms and it helped straddle

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different eras of jazz. If you hear Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, his other

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works, someone keen to integrate the full gambit of jazz history,

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somebody very serious about that. I love him for his political bent as

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well, his ability to speak out, musically, at a time of civil

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rights. He was passionate. He was a significant figure? Yes, somebody of

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authenticity when you look at his music.

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Let's look at what made Charles Mingus so and forgettable.

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That was a short snapshot of the music of Charles Mingus

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with the Metropole Orkest, conducted by our old friend Jules Buckley.

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YolanDa, amazing array of talent on that stage? Everybody brought

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something different and the music of Charles Mingus is something we know.

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Songs you would have heard parts of all alone in his repertoire. It was

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interesting to see what the different soloists brought to the

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table. The one thing I did like was the connection between them. I think

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there was always a smile, Charles Mingus loved when people traded

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solos and you really did grasp that from these soloists, they weren't

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afraid to play from each other, boost each other up. A lot of

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different styles of entertainment and showmanship on that stage.

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Soweto, you know some of them, what are your impressions? In one sense,

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it is not completely out of keeping with Charles Mingus. You have Frank

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Lacy, real performers as well as musicians. That is the thing, if you

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want big, bright loud colours and dance routines, you have got to be

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playing. Especially in the music we deal with. Authenticity is prime and

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we also look to see if somebody is faking the front, taking the jazz.

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Was there any faking going on? It is hard to tell. We don't just want

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impact. I don't want to berate something that could be ringing new

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people in. You want weight, you want depth and authenticity and I am not

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sure how much genuine affection for Charles Mingus I heard. Really, from

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some? From some. Where there any standout moments?

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Christian and Chewbacca. My brothers from other mothers. They understand

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themselves and push the boundaries forward from that perspective. I

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enjoyed hearing what they were doing. John, I am interested in

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knowing what you thought of that jazz, you could be a jazz cat for

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all we know? I wish I was. If I could do it, I would. I don't have

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the right ears. But I do appreciate jazz and it is very close to Baraka

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music, which I do a lot of. You have a difference between formalised

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sections which are notated and the bits which are more loose. That is

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what happens in 17th and 18th century music. There is a lot in

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common and the continuous baseline which is shared between 17th and

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18th century music and jazz in general. I have seen you improvise.

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I can fill in courts, but I wish I were better at it, but I do

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improvise. We will be talking about Bach later in the programme, if he

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were a musician today, maybe he would have been involved in this

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prom. You would have the right. Professional musician. Talking about

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Jules Buckley, they are on a roll with bringing this kind of music to

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a different audience, orchestrating it in a different way, was it

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something Charles Mingus would have appreciated? Evolving, using the

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music as a template and then letting it develop is something he would

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have endorsed. But it is how an steeped are you in that tradition?

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Lester Young, one of the generations that preceded him. There always has

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to be some historical credibility, even if you are not playing in the

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old style. It is what the Proms are about, we have seen a fantastic

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programme this year, the different types of Proms and people would say

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it is not the traditional way we would season the Proms, but the

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music they brought to the fore, the repertoire they brought to the fore

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has branched out and made it something that can appeal to another

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audience. I have to say, to this particular prom, from the very first

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solo, the audience were clapping, dancing and they were up. The

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response on social media and the response in the hall was electric.

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People loved it. Great clips of them getting into it and dancing and if

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that helps them go back to listen to the original repertoire of Charles

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Mingus, the prom has done its job. Sometimes the audience was silence,

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they had an awareness of where they could tune into the happenings and

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sometimes make noises. And sometimes their silence was very impressive.

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Brilliant. If you want to get beneath the underdog that is Charles

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Mingus, head to the BBC iPlayer. Soweto will be playing a number from

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Charles Mingus back catalogue at the end of the show. During the

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eight-week Proms season, the hall is a hive of activity from early

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morning into the late night. But for one select group, the hall is open

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all hours, and for them the witching hour is the only time to get their

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work done and get closer to their musical God.

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Bach is the most amazing brain and heart on any musician I have ever

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encountered. For all his massive intellect, Bach still charms us with

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beautiful harmonies and beautiful tones of phrase. A lot of the hard

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work has to go on at night. It is both the joy and the problem with

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being an organist. When it is the middle of the night,

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it is kind of weird to be here. You can't really play the organ during

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the day, there is too much going on, so you get used to working at

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unsocial hours. And it is very, kind of, well, spooky feeling. You are

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left in there on your own. There are ghosts about. The Royal Albert Hall

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organ is an mighty beast, it is enormous. It makes such a raw. You

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certainly dominate the building. Inside the organ, there are hundreds

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and thousands of pipes with four keyboards and pedals. It is many

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thousands. You sit at your console playing and sounds might be popping

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out round the corner, almost underneath you or, way above your

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head. The two little pieces of Bach I am playing tomorrow, it is

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translated from German into Little Organ Book. Bach left it almost

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unfinished. The project I have been running for nearly ten years is to

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commission contemporary composers to fill in the blank pages. Take the

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tune Bach intended and compose a short piece on that June. We are

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paying homage to music from 300 years ago. I will probably go on

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until 2:30am, 3am in the morning and then be up bright and early for the

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concert. I know you play the organ as well as

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conduct. Does that ring true for you? Have you played in the middle

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of the night in the Albert Hall? I have, yes. It happens all the time

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when you have to play something. When I was a student at Cambridge, I

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was in charge of letting the visiting recital players into the

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chapel in the evening to play the organ. I let him in at eight o'clock

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one night, went to the pub, went to the bed, and at three o'clock in the

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morning I was woken up by the porters because he had set for the

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Alliance. He could not get out. That is my best story, my worst story, in

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terms of that. The Royal Albert Hall in the middle of the night, a little

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bit eerie? The light is always on so it is not that different from

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daytime. It is the bits back on stage which are easily. The hall is

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the same as it ever is. There are no windows. I have been there a bit. As

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jazz musicians, we always assume that jazz recitals in jazz clubs

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stay open all night. Is that your time of day? It is. I have just come

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back from touring in Australia. Everyone talks about the jet lag.

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For the first few days I was fighting it, trying to stay up in

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the daytime, then I realised, I work at night. I was up until 5am. It is

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a good time to play. Do you work better at night? Much of a muchness.

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There are times when in terms of getting inspired, I love the

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late-night session. I might be going to win tonight. In terms of

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compositions, sometimes I like to wake up early and approach it like a

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normal working day. Sit behind the piano.

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Last Sunday, BBC Four showed the mammoth work that is Bach's St

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John Passion, which featured an array of soloists, and the

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Dunedin Consort led by their conductor, John Butt.

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It was more than just a concert, wasn't it? Yes, part of the brief

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was to celebrate the Reformation. I thought it would be quite nice to do

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what Luther, the first reformer in or give it did. Congregational

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singing on a large scale. That gives you the whole context for the find

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world of Bach and his contemporaries. What I did was

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reconstruct the liturgy, which is all song, but it goes around Bach's

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Passion. You can feel how the Passion comes in and out of a larger

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whole. The audience, having sung, are resonating in a way. I think

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they listen differently if they have already sung a little bit and will

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sing again at the end, even though they are not singing the most

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complex music. Later made music accessible to every level. All

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levels are catered for. That is something we benefit from in western

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culture still. Let's have a glimpse

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of this right now. Our sofa guest John Butt leading

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the Dunedin Consort and soloists inside the Proms' own place

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of worship, the Royal Albert Hall. John, you're already mentioned about

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the participation of the audience. It was striking, seeing how engaged

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in the faces in the arena where. How many do you reckon were singing? I

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counted from the film earlier, and directing it was one in five, over

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1000 people singing, which is bigger than I have conducted before. It was

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a wonderful sound. They kept together fantastically well.

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Amazing. It gives them a type of attention that is different from the

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standard classical music, occasionally antiseptic setting.

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It gives it more floor. People would read -- people would originally have

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gone to hear the St John Passion in church. It would not have been an

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entertainment. Although it is said that Bach was filling a hole in

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Leipzig, the lack of opera. The opera house had closed down. People

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went to appreciate the music, and the sermons. They went to the coffee

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houses in the evenings and marked them. There was a critical culture.

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It was not just blind adoration. It was a critical culture, where people

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really did think about the music in every respect. And also the

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preaching, which was an art form in its own right. We would have had

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about an hour's worth of salmon. We would. We had the interval and I

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told the audience they would have to preach to each other. Tell me why

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you put the choir where you put them. We're used to seeing them in

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the stalls, but not on your show? If you look at historical sources for

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singers and choirs as well, the singers are almost always at the

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front, not necessarily because it makes it louder, but you get much

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clear diction that way. I do it almost all the size, regardless of

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size, in most of the productions I am responsible for. I get as many of

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the singers as I can at the front. It is a completely different sound.

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The choir at the back is an invention of the 19th century when

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you had so many singers that there was no one else to put them. They

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are so loud they have a massive impact. With small professional

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performances like this, you lose so much if you put them there, it is

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money wasted for an expensive choir. YolanDa, last year you took part in

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the Gospel Prom which was musical worship of a different kind, or was

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it? The rate is the same, it is the same lard and Jesus. Interestingly,

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watching this Prom, when you approach it as if you were in the

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service, I think you do then worship in the same way. The feeling is the

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same. The style of music is different, but I think it is there.

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Hearing the evangelists really preach and tell the story, having

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the motion, especially when you have the subtitles, you do well up, that

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same emotion and reverence. Yes, a different style of music but the

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same feeling. The storytelling was very strong in this performance?

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Absolutely, especially when they got to the crucifixion. There was

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silence. That for me, that put the nail in the cross, if you like. It

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really was a poignant moment. Seeing Nicholas, his face. He really tells

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the story amazingly. Soweto, how does Bach fit into your world? On

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lots of different levels. His spiritual inspiration, the things he

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was doing at Leipzig, counterpoint, lots of specific things I draw

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inspiration from. Overall, you listen to something like the

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Goldberg variations and you can almost see the music. You see the

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logic of counterpoint, things that really inspire you, that almost let

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you reflect on a higher plane. Particularly with St John Passion, I

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have enjoyed the way it goes from really big movements, like the first

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one we were discussing earlier, one of the greatest introductory

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passages of music, and then to peer down to other sections. I cannot

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remember what they are called. You would have to help me out. Exactly.

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Equally affecting with small ensemble. Some pieces are just

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trios. Bach is always the composer is sated when people speak about

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this. Music and mathematics. Your last album was about the numbers

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around music? Yes, that inspired me for that album, exploring numbers,

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form, and the ability of our brains to create shapes, basic --

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basically, based on what we hear. If you want to, and you should,

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do head to the BBC iPlayer where And we're not done with the Passion

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yet, as in this penultimate Chord Of The Week, our resident

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preacher, David Owen Norris Our Chord Of The Week comes near the

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end of the first part of JS Bach's St John Passion. A terrible moment

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of betrayal where Peter denies Christ three times, the clock crows,

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Peter weeps bitterly, and the choir sings.

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Bach was a master of the rules of harmony, such a master that he could

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twist them to shockingly express events even in music just for four

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voices, 4-part harmony. When the six lane of the corral begins, the

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chords on correct, because the base, confronted with a particular discord

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performs a semitone. When the next thing we hear is the Stark we expect

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the same thing to happen. But featuring Bach has to harmonise is

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not this. But this. The top three voices, the soprano, the Alto and

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the tenor, find a way of harmonising that that makes perfect sense to

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them. But by doing that, they have betrayed the base, which, like

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Jesus, must follow its own destiny and form a semitone. And then Bach,

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still following all the rules of harmony, resolves that discord in

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the D minor. This one borough 4-part harmony -- this one bar of four

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part. It encapsulates all of the story so far.

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I am fascinated to know what you thought of that interpretation, from

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David. Fantastic. It brings out the visceral type in the music. We think

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of Bach as being a brain musician, but you can feel everything in this.

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I wish he had gone on one more phrase. There is a beautiful and

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prepared seventh in the next phrase. It comes with the words that mean

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something bad. Bach does something bad as well, which is stunningly

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bad. It works really well. I have the sudden image of you and David

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head-to-head, with the kind of musicology. When you listen to

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explanations of the music like that, does it bring to life -- does it

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bring it to life? It does for me. Absolutely. It puts the process to

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an effect that we understand, we understand the results when it is

:27:43.:27:46.

tension released. You feel that something is being stretched out and

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we find a resolution. To have somebody explain, thankfully it does

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not take the soul out of it. It helps me understand. I often think

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that only if I had a music teacher like him at school, I could have

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been composing like you guys. David Owen Norris returns next week

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to say, quite literally, Bon Voyage to the final

:28:05.:28:08.

Chord Of The Week. At Proms Extra, we love a tea break

:28:09.:28:11.

and imagine our delight when one of the world's classical stars

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made time in her schedule to So who else could deliver

:28:16.:28:17.

silver service to Renee Fleming St Anne, the

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world-renowned soprano and one of classical music's most inspirational

:28:45.:28:48.

singers. Everywhere from the Super Bowl to the Queen's Jubilee, to the

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Proms. I am lucky enough to have a cup of tea with her. You are here in

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London. I have got to get your cup of tea. I have got to offer you one

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at least. Thank you. What would you like, normal, builder's, terrible? I

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never drink tea at home. I drink coffee, but when I am here, I love

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Earl Grey. It is terribly boring. A splash of milk. A little milk and

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sweetener. I am armed with questions from your beloved fans. The first is

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from someone in Brighton. Do you get to keep all your posh frocks? Yes, I

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keep all of the concert dresses. By the time I finished doing with them,

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these dresses could walk away and have their own life. They really

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live around the world. This is a question from China. How long does

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it take to become a successful soprano? Is it training or are you

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born with it? I think I have an inkling.

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I think there are a lot of fantastic voices in the world, more than you

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will ever know. They work in supermarkets, everywhere. As a lyric

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soprano myself, this is a lady on Twitter, she says is it good to end

:30:15.:30:24.

up as a tree? That is a good point. Unequivocally, it is great to hand

:30:25.:30:30.

up as a tree. How many hours a day do you practice. That is from a

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little girl from Bethnal Green. When I was learning how to sing,

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typically an hour and a half. Rehearsals, can go for six hours.

:30:42.:30:47.

Question from Kirsty, what did you think of the rowdy rabble down at

:30:48.:30:53.

the front of the arena? I love the Proms, I wish more cities would find

:30:54.:30:59.

a way to do it. I always say to people, you should be in London, to

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see all of these people standing. What was your most embarrassing

:31:06.:31:10.

moment on stage? My skirt came. Cannot beat that. How is the tea?

:31:11.:31:15.

Excellent. Cheers, Renee. That was the opera superstar

:31:16.:31:19.

Renee Fleming and you can catch her Prom this Wednesday live

:31:20.:31:21.

on Radio 3. She said, John you couldn't beat her

:31:22.:31:31.

skirt falling off, have you had one of those moments? Yes. I was

:31:32.:31:36.

conducting a concert in Glasgow about ten years ago and it was in

:31:37.:31:39.

the middle of the Scottish winter when it is very hard to see. I went

:31:40.:31:46.

to collect my shirt from the floor of the kitchen, where we are clean

:31:47.:31:50.

clothes. They look fine, did the rehearsal and put the shirt on five

:31:51.:31:54.

minutes before the concert. It turned out to be a shirt owned by my

:31:55.:32:00.

ten-year-old son. I could just about squeeze it run, except I had a huge

:32:01.:32:05.

midriff Axel it was quite fortunate in the end, because I had tails and

:32:06.:32:10.

the audience didn't notice. But the choir could see everything,

:32:11.:32:15.

including when things got hotter and wetter, it got worse. They laughed

:32:16.:32:19.

so much, it was the best singing I had ever had from the choir. It was

:32:20.:32:28.

fantastic. That is a tremendous image but the most inventive use of

:32:29.:32:34.

a combo Bund. Soweto, I know you are getting ready for your performers,

:32:35.:32:39.

have you got any moments like that? Too many, I have fallen off the

:32:40.:32:43.

stage, embarrassing. In South Africa, I was giving my usual Thai

:32:44.:32:49.

raid against corporate interest and the banks and I was getting really

:32:50.:32:53.

political and then I looked over my back and I realise the event was

:32:54.:32:58.

sponsored by standard bank. That was embarrassing. Other sponsors and

:32:59.:33:08.

banks are available, of course. How about you, YolanDa? There is

:33:09.:33:12.

something to be said about being comfortable on the stage, maybe not

:33:13.:33:19.

in a ten-year-old's shirt. I do take my heels of invalid interval. I went

:33:20.:33:25.

to my dressing room took my shoes. Then I realised there was a big rush

:33:26.:33:30.

to get back on stage. My picked up my saxophone, and then I thought

:33:31.:33:34.

things felt comfortable, I didn't know why. I looked down and I still

:33:35.:33:39.

had my slippers on. The audience thought it was a costume change, I

:33:40.:33:43.

don't know, they were very gracious. I had to get somebody to get my

:33:44.:33:50.

heels. You are just being so jazz, so relax. I know, now I see people

:33:51.:33:56.

in slippers all the time, I was ahead of the game. This dream dinner

:33:57.:34:04.

date, dream cup of tea, who would it be for you, John? Dream cup of tea,

:34:05.:34:08.

I used to work a little bit four and Schiff back in the late 90s when I

:34:09.:34:13.

played some of his things. To get a cup of tea with him was fantastic in

:34:14.:34:17.

that period in particular because I was learning so many of the pieces

:34:18.:34:23.

he was playing, Bach in particular. Very useful, one thing he told me,

:34:24.:34:32.

he said play half of this music a day. You can hear him playing Bach

:34:33.:34:45.

on the 7th of September. I wrote the programme notes. Briefly, YolanDa

:34:46.:34:51.

who would your dream date be with? It would be a very strange capacity,

:34:52.:34:56.

but one I would like to have with Bob Marley. Herbal tea, maybe.

:34:57.:35:02.

Excellent, tell us all about it. As we career towards the end,

:35:03.:35:04.

don't forget that you can catch up on the Proms we've discussed tonight

:35:05.:35:08.

on the BBC iPlayer, Radio 3 broadcasts every single Prom

:35:09.:35:11.

and there is a weekly Proms podcast. For your TV Proms fix catch

:35:12.:35:14.

conductor, Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla with Then on the same channel next

:35:15.:35:17.

Friday it's a biggie, Clare Teal and the Big Band

:35:18.:35:23.

followed by Jools Holland's Thank you to YolanDa Brown

:35:24.:35:26.

and to John Butt for coming in. And it's thank you to our final

:35:27.:35:33.

guest who's about to pay tribute Accompanied by Nick Jurd,

:35:34.:35:36.

performing Boogie Stop Shuffle

:35:37.:35:42.

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