Proms Extra: Episode 6 BBC Proms

Welcome to Proms Extra, we're your window on to the Proms

Tonight we're all about passion and spirit as we reflect

And inside the Hall the Proms action continues with a flourish.

Inside our grand studio we have three award winning guests who have

pledged to be enthusiastic, controversial and learned.

No pressure then on not one but two saxophonists,

YolanDa Brown and Soweto Kinch, plus the conductor, John Butt.

, Thank you for having us. YolanDa, you have been busy, got a new album

out? It has been exciting, I have been putting ?1 in the job every

time I say exciting. But sharing it with a new audience. Posh reggae. I

am not calling it jazz, posh reggae. Something new for a good time

feeling. It was nice to come into the Jazz Forum and be in The Royal

Albert Hall and the auditorium for the Ella Fitzgerald and Dizzy

Gillespie celebration. It was a great night. Talking of great

nights, John, have you recovered, come down or are you still buzzing

from your prom? Still buzzing, but I have been doing university work this

week so I have had to put my brain into a certain degree of straight

gear. Yes, up and down, basically. The variety of you like is

interesting. It is interesting at times. And Soweto, you have had your

festival? Yes, enjoying jazz now I getting up close and personal with

the musicians I admire. Really enjoying that show.

Last night BBC four hosted the Charles Mingus Prom,

a tribute to the late, great, double bassist.

Why is Charles Mingus such an important name in the name of jazz?

He stands at a certain juncture in terms of how the music evolved. The

outset of bebop, and he was considered an innovator among Dizzy

Gillespie and Charlie Parker who co-defined what we call bebop. His

approach was so broad and big in terms of scope, in terms of his

albums, he didn't write conventional forms and it helped straddle

different eras of jazz. If you hear Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, his other

works, someone keen to integrate the full gambit of jazz history,

somebody very serious about that. I love him for his political bent as

well, his ability to speak out, musically, at a time of civil

rights. He was passionate. He was a significant figure? Yes, somebody of

authenticity when you look at his music.

Let's look at what made Charles Mingus so and forgettable.

That was a short snapshot of the music of Charles Mingus

with the Metropole Orkest, conducted by our old friend Jules Buckley.

YolanDa, amazing array of talent on that stage? Everybody brought

something different and the music of Charles Mingus is something we know.

Songs you would have heard parts of all alone in his repertoire. It was

interesting to see what the different soloists brought to the

table. The one thing I did like was the connection between them. I think

there was always a smile, Charles Mingus loved when people traded

solos and you really did grasp that from these soloists, they weren't

afraid to play from each other, boost each other up. A lot of

different styles of entertainment and showmanship on that stage.

Soweto, you know some of them, what are your impressions? In one sense,

it is not completely out of keeping with Charles Mingus. You have Frank

Lacy, real performers as well as musicians. That is the thing, if you

want big, bright loud colours and dance routines, you have got to be

playing. Especially in the music we deal with. Authenticity is prime and

we also look to see if somebody is faking the front, taking the jazz.

Was there any faking going on? It is hard to tell. We don't just want

impact. I don't want to berate something that could be ringing new

people in. You want weight, you want depth and authenticity and I am not

sure how much genuine affection for Charles Mingus I heard. Really, from

some? From some. Where there any standout moments?

Christian and Chewbacca. My brothers from other mothers. They understand

themselves and push the boundaries forward from that perspective. I

enjoyed hearing what they were doing. John, I am interested in

knowing what you thought of that jazz, you could be a jazz cat for

all we know? I wish I was. If I could do it, I would. I don't have

the right ears. But I do appreciate jazz and it is very close to Baraka

music, which I do a lot of. You have a difference between formalised

sections which are notated and the bits which are more loose. That is

what happens in 17th and 18th century music. There is a lot in

common and the continuous baseline which is shared between 17th and

18th century music and jazz in general. I have seen you improvise.

I can fill in courts, but I wish I were better at it, but I do

improvise. We will be talking about Bach later in the programme, if he

were a musician today, maybe he would have been involved in this

prom. You would have the right. Professional musician. Talking about

Jules Buckley, they are on a roll with bringing this kind of music to

a different audience, orchestrating it in a different way, was it

something Charles Mingus would have appreciated? Evolving, using the

music as a template and then letting it develop is something he would

have endorsed. But it is how an steeped are you in that tradition?

Lester Young, one of the generations that preceded him. There always has

to be some historical credibility, even if you are not playing in the

old style. It is what the Proms are about, we have seen a fantastic

programme this year, the different types of Proms and people would say

it is not the traditional way we would season the Proms, but the

music they brought to the fore, the repertoire they brought to the fore

has branched out and made it something that can appeal to another

audience. I have to say, to this particular prom, from the very first

solo, the audience were clapping, dancing and they were up. The

response on social media and the response in the hall was electric.

People loved it. Great clips of them getting into it and dancing and if

that helps them go back to listen to the original repertoire of Charles

Mingus, the prom has done its job. Sometimes the audience was silence,

they had an awareness of where they could tune into the happenings and

sometimes make noises. And sometimes their silence was very impressive.

Brilliant. If you want to get beneath the underdog that is Charles

Mingus, head to the BBC iPlayer. Soweto will be playing a number from

Charles Mingus back catalogue at the end of the show. During the

eight-week Proms season, the hall is a hive of activity from early

morning into the late night. But for one select group, the hall is open

all hours, and for them the witching hour is the only time to get their

work done and get closer to their musical God.

Bach is the most amazing brain and heart on any musician I have ever

encountered. For all his massive intellect, Bach still charms us with

beautiful harmonies and beautiful tones of phrase. A lot of the hard

work has to go on at night. It is both the joy and the problem with

being an organist. When it is the middle of the night,

it is kind of weird to be here. You can't really play the organ during

the day, there is too much going on, so you get used to working at

unsocial hours. And it is very, kind of, well, spooky feeling. You are

left in there on your own. There are ghosts about. The Royal Albert Hall

organ is an mighty beast, it is enormous. It makes such a raw. You

certainly dominate the building. Inside the organ, there are hundreds

and thousands of pipes with four keyboards and pedals. It is many

thousands. You sit at your console playing and sounds might be popping

out round the corner, almost underneath you or, way above your

head. The two little pieces of Bach I am playing tomorrow, it is

translated from German into Little Organ Book. Bach left it almost

unfinished. The project I have been running for nearly ten years is to

commission contemporary composers to fill in the blank pages. Take the

tune Bach intended and compose a short piece on that June. We are

paying homage to music from 300 years ago. I will probably go on

until 2:30am, 3am in the morning and then be up bright and early for the

concert. I know you play the organ as well as

conduct. Does that ring true for you? Have you played in the middle

of the night in the Albert Hall? I have, yes. It happens all the time

when you have to play something. When I was a student at Cambridge, I

was in charge of letting the visiting recital players into the

chapel in the evening to play the organ. I let him in at eight o'clock

one night, went to the pub, went to the bed, and at three o'clock in the

morning I was woken up by the porters because he had set for the

Alliance. He could not get out. That is my best story, my worst story, in

terms of that. The Royal Albert Hall in the middle of the night, a little

bit eerie? The light is always on so it is not that different from

daytime. It is the bits back on stage which are easily. The hall is

the same as it ever is. There are no windows. I have been there a bit. As

jazz musicians, we always assume that jazz recitals in jazz clubs

stay open all night. Is that your time of day? It is. I have just come

back from touring in Australia. Everyone talks about the jet lag.

For the first few days I was fighting it, trying to stay up in

the daytime, then I realised, I work at night. I was up until 5am. It is

a good time to play. Do you work better at night? Much of a muchness.

There are times when in terms of getting inspired, I love the

late-night session. I might be going to win tonight. In terms of

compositions, sometimes I like to wake up early and approach it like a

normal working day. Sit behind the piano.

Last Sunday, BBC Four showed the mammoth work that is Bach's St

John Passion, which featured an array of soloists, and the

Dunedin Consort led by their conductor, John Butt.

It was more than just a concert, wasn't it? Yes, part of the brief

was to celebrate the Reformation. I thought it would be quite nice to do

what Luther, the first reformer in or give it did. Congregational

singing on a large scale. That gives you the whole context for the find

world of Bach and his contemporaries. What I did was

reconstruct the liturgy, which is all song, but it goes around Bach's

Passion. You can feel how the Passion comes in and out of a larger

whole. The audience, having sung, are resonating in a way. I think

they listen differently if they have already sung a little bit and will

sing again at the end, even though they are not singing the most

complex music. Later made music accessible to every level. All

levels are catered for. That is something we benefit from in western

culture still. Let's have a glimpse

of this right now. Our sofa guest John Butt leading

the Dunedin Consort and soloists inside the Proms' own place

of worship, the Royal Albert Hall. John, you're already mentioned about

the participation of the audience. It was striking, seeing how engaged

in the faces in the arena where. How many do you reckon were singing? I

counted from the film earlier, and directing it was one in five, over

1000 people singing, which is bigger than I have conducted before. It was

a wonderful sound. They kept together fantastically well.

Amazing. It gives them a type of attention that is different from the

standard classical music, occasionally antiseptic setting.

It gives it more floor. People would read -- people would originally have

gone to hear the St John Passion in church. It would not have been an

entertainment. Although it is said that Bach was filling a hole in

Leipzig, the lack of opera. The opera house had closed down. People

went to appreciate the music, and the sermons. They went to the coffee

houses in the evenings and marked them. There was a critical culture.

It was not just blind adoration. It was a critical culture, where people

really did think about the music in every respect. And also the

preaching, which was an art form in its own right. We would have had

about an hour's worth of salmon. We would. We had the interval and I

told the audience they would have to preach to each other. Tell me why

you put the choir where you put them. We're used to seeing them in

the stalls, but not on your show? If you look at historical sources for

singers and choirs as well, the singers are almost always at the

front, not necessarily because it makes it louder, but you get much

clear diction that way. I do it almost all the size, regardless of

size, in most of the productions I am responsible for. I get as many of

the singers as I can at the front. It is a completely different sound.

The choir at the back is an invention of the 19th century when

you had so many singers that there was no one else to put them. They

are so loud they have a massive impact. With small professional

performances like this, you lose so much if you put them there, it is

money wasted for an expensive choir. YolanDa, last year you took part in

the Gospel Prom which was musical worship of a different kind, or was

it? The rate is the same, it is the same lard and Jesus. Interestingly,

watching this Prom, when you approach it as if you were in the

service, I think you do then worship in the same way. The feeling is the

same. The style of music is different, but I think it is there.

Hearing the evangelists really preach and tell the story, having

the motion, especially when you have the subtitles, you do well up, that

same emotion and reverence. Yes, a different style of music but the

same feeling. The storytelling was very strong in this performance?

Absolutely, especially when they got to the crucifixion. There was

silence. That for me, that put the nail in the cross, if you like. It

really was a poignant moment. Seeing Nicholas, his face. He really tells

the story amazingly. Soweto, how does Bach fit into your world? On

lots of different levels. His spiritual inspiration, the things he

was doing at Leipzig, counterpoint, lots of specific things I draw

inspiration from. Overall, you listen to something like the

Goldberg variations and you can almost see the music. You see the

logic of counterpoint, things that really inspire you, that almost let

you reflect on a higher plane. Particularly with St John Passion, I

have enjoyed the way it goes from really big movements, like the first

one we were discussing earlier, one of the greatest introductory

passages of music, and then to peer down to other sections. I cannot

remember what they are called. You would have to help me out. Exactly.

Equally affecting with small ensemble. Some pieces are just

trios. Bach is always the composer is sated when people speak about

this. Music and mathematics. Your last album was about the numbers

around music? Yes, that inspired me for that album, exploring numbers,

form, and the ability of our brains to create shapes, basic --

basically, based on what we hear. If you want to, and you should,

do head to the BBC iPlayer where And we're not done with the Passion

yet, as in this penultimate Chord Of The Week, our resident

preacher, David Owen Norris Our Chord Of The Week comes near the

end of the first part of JS Bach's St John Passion. A terrible moment

of betrayal where Peter denies Christ three times, the clock crows,

Peter weeps bitterly, and the choir sings.

Bach was a master of the rules of harmony, such a master that he could

twist them to shockingly express events even in music just for four

voices, 4-part harmony. When the six lane of the corral begins, the

chords on correct, because the base, confronted with a particular discord

performs a semitone. When the next thing we hear is the Stark we expect

the same thing to happen. But featuring Bach has to harmonise is

not this. But this. The top three voices, the soprano, the Alto and

the tenor, find a way of harmonising that that makes perfect sense to

them. But by doing that, they have betrayed the base, which, like

Jesus, must follow its own destiny and form a semitone. And then Bach,

still following all the rules of harmony, resolves that discord in

the D minor. This one borough 4-part harmony -- this one bar of four

part. It encapsulates all of the story so far.

I am fascinated to know what you thought of that interpretation, from

David. Fantastic. It brings out the visceral type in the music. We think

of Bach as being a brain musician, but you can feel everything in this.

I wish he had gone on one more phrase. There is a beautiful and

prepared seventh in the next phrase. It comes with the words that mean

something bad. Bach does something bad as well, which is stunningly

bad. It works really well. I have the sudden image of you and David

head-to-head, with the kind of musicology. When you listen to

explanations of the music like that, does it bring to life -- does it

bring it to life? It does for me. Absolutely. It puts the process to

an effect that we understand, we understand the results when it is

tension released. You feel that something is being stretched out and

we find a resolution. To have somebody explain, thankfully it does

not take the soul out of it. It helps me understand. I often think

that only if I had a music teacher like him at school, I could have

been composing like you guys. David Owen Norris returns next week

to say, quite literally, Bon Voyage to the final

Chord Of The Week. At Proms Extra, we love a tea break

and imagine our delight when one of the world's classical stars

made time in her schedule to So who else could deliver

silver service to Renee Fleming St Anne, the

world-renowned soprano and one of classical music's most inspirational

singers. Everywhere from the Super Bowl to the Queen's Jubilee, to the

Proms. I am lucky enough to have a cup of tea with her. You are here in

London. I have got to get your cup of tea. I have got to offer you one

at least. Thank you. What would you like, normal, builder's, terrible? I

never drink tea at home. I drink coffee, but when I am here, I love

Earl Grey. It is terribly boring. A splash of milk. A little milk and

sweetener. I am armed with questions from your beloved fans. The first is

from someone in Brighton. Do you get to keep all your posh frocks? Yes, I

keep all of the concert dresses. By the time I finished doing with them,

these dresses could walk away and have their own life. They really

live around the world. This is a question from China. How long does

it take to become a successful soprano? Is it training or are you

born with it? I think I have an inkling.

I think there are a lot of fantastic voices in the world, more than you

will ever know. They work in supermarkets, everywhere. As a lyric

soprano myself, this is a lady on Twitter, she says is it good to end

up as a tree? That is a good point. Unequivocally, it is great to hand

up as a tree. How many hours a day do you practice. That is from a

little girl from Bethnal Green. When I was learning how to sing,

typically an hour and a half. Rehearsals, can go for six hours.

Question from Kirsty, what did you think of the rowdy rabble down at

the front of the arena? I love the Proms, I wish more cities would find

a way to do it. I always say to people, you should be in London, to

see all of these people standing. What was your most embarrassing

moment on stage? My skirt came. Cannot beat that. How is the tea?

Excellent. Cheers, Renee. That was the opera superstar

Renee Fleming and you can catch her Prom this Wednesday live

on Radio 3. She said, John you couldn't beat her

skirt falling off, have you had one of those moments? Yes. I was

conducting a concert in Glasgow about ten years ago and it was in

the middle of the Scottish winter when it is very hard to see. I went

to collect my shirt from the floor of the kitchen, where we are clean

clothes. They look fine, did the rehearsal and put the shirt on five

minutes before the concert. It turned out to be a shirt owned by my

ten-year-old son. I could just about squeeze it run, except I had a huge

midriff Axel it was quite fortunate in the end, because I had tails and

the audience didn't notice. But the choir could see everything,

including when things got hotter and wetter, it got worse. They laughed

so much, it was the best singing I had ever had from the choir. It was

fantastic. That is a tremendous image but the most inventive use of

a combo Bund. Soweto, I know you are getting ready for your performers,

have you got any moments like that? Too many, I have fallen off the

stage, embarrassing. In South Africa, I was giving my usual Thai

raid against corporate interest and the banks and I was getting really

political and then I looked over my back and I realise the event was

sponsored by standard bank. That was embarrassing. Other sponsors and

banks are available, of course. How about you, YolanDa? There is

something to be said about being comfortable on the stage, maybe not

in a ten-year-old's shirt. I do take my heels of invalid interval. I went

to my dressing room took my shoes. Then I realised there was a big rush

to get back on stage. My picked up my saxophone, and then I thought

things felt comfortable, I didn't know why. I looked down and I still

had my slippers on. The audience thought it was a costume change, I

don't know, they were very gracious. I had to get somebody to get my

heels. You are just being so jazz, so relax. I know, now I see people

in slippers all the time, I was ahead of the game. This dream dinner

date, dream cup of tea, who would it be for you, John? Dream cup of tea,

I used to work a little bit four and Schiff back in the late 90s when I

played some of his things. To get a cup of tea with him was fantastic in

that period in particular because I was learning so many of the pieces

he was playing, Bach in particular. Very useful, one thing he told me,

he said play half of this music a day. You can hear him playing Bach

on the 7th of September. I wrote the programme notes. Briefly, YolanDa

who would your dream date be with? It would be a very strange capacity,

but one I would like to have with Bob Marley. Herbal tea, maybe.

Excellent, tell us all about it. As we career towards the end,

don't forget that you can catch up on the Proms we've discussed tonight

on the BBC iPlayer, Radio 3 broadcasts every single Prom

and there is a weekly Proms podcast. For your TV Proms fix catch

conductor, Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla with Then on the same channel next

Friday it's a biggie, Clare Teal and the Big Band

followed by Jools Holland's Thank you to YolanDa Brown

and to John Butt for coming in. And it's thank you to our final

guest who's about to pay tribute Accompanied by Nick Jurd,

performing Boogie Stop Shuffle