Nelson Mandela: Lying in State

Good morning. From Pretoria, the capital of South Africa. This is the

centre of this great city, the head of Government, parliament meets down

in Cape Town, but the place we are focussing on today are the majestic

Union Buildings, which house the presidency and the executive branch

of Government, built on the highest hill in the city, for the union of

South Africa back in 1910. It is here that Nelson Mandela will lie in

state for three days for the public to pay their respects. His body will

be brought each day from the military hospital in Pretoria,

through the streets, up through the hills to this amphitheatre, where

nearly 20 years ago he took that oath as the first President of South

Africa to be elected by universal vote. The election that marked the

end of apartheid. The procedure today is very formal, unlike

yesterday, we saw yesterday the great scenes in Johannesburg with

all the heads of state coming and the speeches made about Nelson

Mandela. Today is chance for the people of South Africa to pay their

respect, rather like when Winston Churchill died, George VI died,

people queued to go past the coffin. Here we will have the could have

fine from the hospital through the streets, which they expect to be

lined with people. An open coffin, because he's embalmed, first the

members of the public will come, the Government will come and the public

will be allowed to file fast. We're up at the Union Buildings.

Thank you very much, as you said this is the highest point in

Pretoria. As I look across the amphitheatre you can see much of the

city laid out in front of us. Happily it is a rather better day

than we had yesterday, and the people who will come across here,

this amphitheatre, which will be renamed, it will be known as the

Nelson Mandela amphitheatre, so the people will come across us, as we

look out here. We're told they are going to try to get people through

at a rate of 2,000 an hour. Clearly, as you say, there may be tens of

thousands of people who will want to pay their respects to Nelson

Mandela. The man who was, who took the oath of office, as you say, just

here, nearly 20 years ago. Thank you George, we will be back

there with you at the Union Buildings later on. I'm joined here

by Dr Ramaphosa, a political fighter is the way to describe you, you set

up a party this year against the ANC because you don't like the way that

the great revolution achieved by Nelson Mandela has turned out. I

wonder what your thought are today, you go back to the very heart of

this struggle. You were the partner of Steve Bkeko, and you saw many

friends killed in the era and as he was assassinated. When the coffin

goes by will be you back there? My thoughts are likely to be back to

the first day I saw Mr Mandela, which was July 31st 1988. But there

would also be thoughts of gratitude. That such great man was able to help

us conclude a struggle which had become a stalemate. My thoughts will

also be about how do we take forward his legacy? How do we honour this

great man in terms of making sure that we complete the long walk to

freedom which has not yet been completed for 80% of South Africa's

people. How did you yourself first become involved in the battle

against apartheid, because some people took no part in that, just

lived lives under apartheid. But there were others who decided they

should stand up and fight, you were one of those. How did that come

about? I was fortunate to be part of a community of students, only about

15 of us, at Natale Medical School, which was only for black stew

udents. It was called the Natale University Non-European section. We

had happily called ourselves non-Europeans and non-whites until

after many months of discussions, of reading up on Martin Luthur king,

and the Black Power struggle in the UK, and rights in South Africa. We

came to a slowly evolving conclusion. That the major problem,

why apartheid was so powerful, conducted by a minority over a large

majority was because they had imprisoned our minds. That started

with identity. Imprisoned your minds not just the people? That is the

greatest power. How was your mind imprisoned, you doesn't strike me as

that, you are someone who speaks their mind? If you are in the power

of someone oppressing you, you are a prisoner. The day we stood up and

said we are black and proud, we then became unstoppable agents of

freedom. And that is the power that enabled us to mobilise students in

all the black campuses, to mobilise high school students, that is how

June 16th happened. I want to talk to you more in a moment about the

way the Government tried to prevent people lobing you like you from

getting your voice heard. We were told that at 7.00 our time, but 5.00

in the UK, we are seen all over the world with this programme, I don't

know where you are. you are. .00 time, the coffin of Nelson

Mandela will be brought out and taken on its way to union buildings.

It goes on an interesting route, it passes among other things the main

prison in Pretoria, and the place where Nelson Mandela was put on

trial and sentenced to life imprisonment. We're along the route.

I'm on Madiba Street in the heart of Pretoria, and it is along here that

Nelson Mandela's body will be travelling in the next hour or so,

as it makes its way to the place it will officially lie in state, the

Union Buildings, in the distance. Let's paint a bigger picture of the

scene, a huge barrier is lining the route, manned by security personnel

to allow smooth passage for the cortege, as it heads from the

hospital overnight to the Union Buildings. It is about a distance of

11. 5kms, and the authorities are saying it should take about an hour

to process along the route. If yesterday the memorial service of

the FNB Stadium was an opportunity for ordinary South Africans to

celebrate Nelson Mandela's life in words and song, and eulogies, then

today perhaps is an opportunity for South Africans to say goodbye, bid

him a formal and final farewell before his body heads off to the

burial site in country new, on Sunday. The Government said it would

like to see ordinary South Africans lining the route to form a guard of

honour, if you like, for Nelson Mandela's body as it moves along the

route here. And once it does reach the destination where it will lie in

state, over the next three days, people will be able to view his

casket. No photographs will be allowed to be taken, no cell phones

allowed inside the room. But or theory South Africans will be a--

but ordinary South Africans will be able to view his body in the

buildings here. I have a couple of people who have come down here to

Madiba Street and are willing to talk to us. You are Christie Horn,

explain why it is important for you to be here today? It is an absolute

blessing to be part of the historical memorial event, that the

world has seen. To pay my last respects to Nelson Mandela. He was

such a great person, such a loving person, and we all love him. Don't

matter who you are in South Africa, or worldwide, we all loved him. And

it is a huge loss for all of us. It is my way of paying tribute to him

today, this morning, because I couldn't make it yesterday, it was

absolutely impossible. So this is my opportunity to view the casket when

he passes and to take that moment and hold on to it forever. Porsche,

come in here, you are another one of the people who have decided to come

down here and Christie you come in, we need to get both your

perspectives. Porsche I would like to ask you what Nelson Mandela means

to you here? Nelson Mandela means to me freedom, because now we are free

because he fought for us, he fought for our freedom, everything we have

today. To be free walking in the street, to be free talking and about

with an opinion, it is because he's our true hero. When you see the

casket, when you see the coffin as it moves down here, how is that

going to affect you personally, deep down? It will show me he's really

going, our hero is not here any more, we can't him any more, but his

memory still belongs with us. Christie, is there a sense that it

is not really sunk in for a lot of South Africans that made has --

Madiba has gone, but today it will hit home? I think today when the

public and the world see the casket passing by, for the next three days

it will kick in and then people will realise. But he left us. I also feel

at the moment my heart is pumping very fast because this moment is

history in the making. And I'm so glad to be part of it, it is such a

blessed moment. Thank you so much that we can share, me and Porsche,

share it with the world, how we feel as South Africans. I feel terribly

full of heartache and you can hear in my voice...? It is interesting,

isn't t I know you are tearing up there, it is interesting isn't it,

we're actually in the middle of Pretoria, the place is rich with

symbolism, isn't it Porsche, the Palace of Justice is to our right,

that is where Nelson Mandela was handed down his 27-year sentence to

go to Robben Island, being in this area, what is that like to you? I'm

scared at the same time, I'm shivering without knowing what to

say, but he has done it for u that is all I can say. Thank you both

very much indeed for joining us here. Some poignant memories there,

and the thoughts of some of the ordinary South Africans who will be

lining this route over the next hour, Nelson Mandela's funeral

cortege is expected to move along here in the next few minutes and of

course we will bring you that live. Back to you.

We're stale e -- still parentally waiting for the coffin to leave the

hospital in Pretoria, the hospital where he was himself treated, the

military hospital here. Dr Mamphela Ramphele is with us and we were

talking about the struggle against apartheid, and people forget what it

was like to stand up against it. What were the measures that the

state, the Government, the police took against you and your friends

when you tried to speak out against apartheid? What actually happened to

you all? Their whole approach was one of striking terror in the hearts

of those who dared to oppose the system. And in our case, we were

restricted, first they restricted the movements and the freedom of

speech of the leaders of the black consciousness movement. They were

all banished or banned to different parts of South Africa to scatter

them so that the solidarity we had built could be broken. But what they

didn't bargain for was our tenacity. So we were like a salt mander, the

more they cut the tail the more it grows a tail. They then had

established a community in King Williams Town, which worked with

people who were poor to demonstrate that we can work together to improve

the short-term You were being beaten up? They use detention orders and

they could, at the drop of a hat arrest you. Steve was arrested for

failing to stop at the end of a street. Steve Biko in the end was

tortured horribly and driven in a van, if I remember, to Pretoria and

died soon after arriving, naked and chained in the back of a van, that

is right isn't it? Yes, the idea was when you were detained, to torture

you, humiliated you. In his case, because they humiliate you, they

smashed his head and killed him. And they drove him naked at the back of

a van. And he died here in the city. Many people died in mysterious

deaths. I was, myself banished, to a completely unknown place where I was

to spend eight years of my life. Not allowed to leave? Not allowed to

leave. I was restricted to a little Twp of 800, and I had to get

permission to leave town. If I wanted to go to church I have to get

permission. People disappeared. There where the formal hangings of

people who oppose the government, I think 121 judicial hangings by the

state. Then there were people who died in detention mysteriously,

people were shot on the streets of Soweto and other places. People were

described by the police as dying through slipping in the shower, I

remember was one thing. It just said, " slipped in the shower". But

one suspected something more serious happened to them? Absolutely, many

more people died gruesome deaths. We are waiting for Nelson Mandela's

Coffin to leave the military hospital, but let's remind ourselves

of the person all South Africa and the world is remembering during

these days of mourning. Nelson Mandela fought to bring

political change to South Africa. In the struggle for equal rights, he

was imprisoned for 27 years, but rose to become the first black

president of South Africa. He said he could not pinpoint the moment

when he became politicised, but always knew he would devote his life

to liberation. He took his first steps on this path when he helped to

establish the youth wing of the African National Congress in 1994.

When he was 30, the government introduced the policy of apartheid,

that systematically and often brutally separated races. Nelson

Mandela and his friend, Oliver Tambo set up a law firm in 1952 which

specialised in the fallout from apartheid laws. His resolute

campaigning brought him into conflict with the state. In 1956

Mandela was charged with high treason along with 155 activists. He

was acquitted four years later. The struggle took a toll on family life

and in 1958 he divorced his first wife, Eva Lind. He married again, to

Winnie, a social worker. In March 1960 at a protest, police

shot dead 69 people. The ANC was banned and Nelson Mandela went into

hiding. While underground he hinted at new direction for the ANC. There

are many people who feel it is futile for us to continue

nonviolence against a government whose reply is to open fire on

unarmed, defenceless people. Mandela went on to establish the ANC's

military wing. He was tried for sabotage in 1963. He proudly

confessed his guilt and spoke boldly from the dock. I have fought against

white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have

cherished the idea of a democratic and free society in which all

persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an

idea for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But, my lord,

if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

He avoided the death penalty, but was sentenced to life imprisonment.

He served 27 years in prison, 18 years in Robben Island, a desolate

place off the coast of Cape Town. Conditions were harsh. He was

confined to a small, uncomfortable cell and forced to carry out hard

labour. With Nelson Mandela and the other ANC leaders behind bars, it

fell to another generation to continue the struggle against

apartheid. As pressure grew on the South African government, the

president, PW Botha, offered Nelson Mandela, now 65 years old,

conditional release for renouncing armed struggle. His defiant response

was delivered by his daughter. My father says, I cannot and will not,

give any undertaking at a time when I hand you, the people are not free.

I will return. The fight to free Nelson Mandela

became a worldwide cause. In 1988, 600 million people in 67 countries

watched his 70th birthday concert. Finally, on the 2nd of February,

1990, President FW de Klerk reversed the ban on Nelson Mandela and the

ANC. The government has taken a decision to release Mr Mandela

unconditionally. The skies are lifting in Pretoria,

the sun is coming out. It is mid-summer so it should be like

this. George Alagiah is at the Union Buildings, but it does not seem the

procession with the Coffin has left the military hospital. Is that a

sign of things to come at the Union Buildings? There are still

preparations going on. I am on the west Wing of the Union Buildings,

which is a few paces from where Nelson Mandela occupied the office

of residency with such dignity. Let me give you some idea what will

happen today. Normally of course, tomorrow and Friday, this area would

be open to the public throughout the day. Today will be slightly

different. What we think will happen is, first there will be an official

delegation, close members of the family, perhaps an international

dignitaries. They will come here to view the body of Nelson Mandela.

That will go on until about midday, it is only after that the public

will come through. As you say, it is brightening up, it is much better

weather for those people who will queue up to come through here.

It is a big change from yesterday because in Johannesburg it was

raining. People were saying it is God's sign of grace to give reign at

a funeral. I think it reduced the number of people who came to the

football stadium. It was the same here, pouring with rain all day

long. It may mean people will come out onto the streets in Pretoria to

see the Coffin going past. There have been people dancing in the

streets already along this route, which takes us up from the hospital

itself, past the old monuments, pass the Freedom Park set up as a

reminder of all those people who have given their lives in the cause

of freedom. Pass the prison and then into the centre of Victoria, right

through downtown Pretoria past church square and then finally

winding up to these Union Buildings here behind us. We are waiting, as

ever, for action on the military fronts, because it is a military

escort that will bring the Coffin out of the military hospital and

take it on its way. As soon as we get those pictures, we will go to

them. We are talking about apartheid and the early years and the terror,

described very vividly. Let's jump forward, you were an idealist, part

of a group of people who believed that when apartheid fell, the

country would have a new start, a new life. But you are one of those,

one of many people, who are extremely disappointed with what has

happened and what is happening now with the government of President

Jacob Zuma. What went wrong with the ANC and their revolution? What went

wrong is that we underestimated what it would take to transform a society

that had been engineered into inequality. We simply, and the ANC

in particular, focused on taking control of the liver of power. And

many, including Nelson Mandela, we need a panel of people who have

lived in the country, who understand what it will take to make the

changes that are needed. To bring freedom into the lives of people.

There will be a band playing the national anthem and salute up at the

Union Buildings. This is the band on its way to the amphitheatre, I

suspect, where the Coffin will lie in state. It is marching along the

Esplanade just in front of the amphitheatre with the gardens that

swoop down and the big memorial in Afrikaans and English there. There

is an Army band and it is led by the air force.

We saw a glimpse of what is happening. Tantalisingly close, we

could almost see it with the naked eye. But not quite. It is a splendid

site? It is fantastic. It is one of the best, best sites in our country

in terms of architecture. I am told when it was built, because it was

hoped to symbolise the union after the boardwalk, that one side is

meant to be an Afrikaans side and the other is an English side. It is

certainly a very splendid building. Where you there when the

inauguration of Nelson Mandela as president happened? Certainly not, I

was in Boston on a sabbatical. I watched it on television, streaming

tears down my face. Just a wonderful day. I watched it pretty much from

where we are now, and watching the jet planes flying over. This is the

God of honour now. -- guard of honour. This guard of honour will be

here for the next three days, standing over the Coffin.

And now a motorcade through the streets, I suspect though I won't

say it because it is moving rather fast, it might be the motorcade

proceeding the hearse, carrying Nelson Mandela's could have even if,

we are short of accurate information about what it is that is happening.

The pictures are just being sent in. We will watch that, if it is, as I

think it must be, the coffin, it will come those streets and up to

where that guard of honour is standing, waiting. It is now just

after seven. 30 here in Pretoria. When the coffin comes there, it will

be received then the family are thought to be the first people to

come to the coffin. Then President Zuma and members of the Government,

and then after a pause members of the general public will be allowed

in. They are not allowed to drive up here, of course, they go to some

holding I can't remember, they have to walk up, but they are expecting,

as George was saying about 2,000 people every hour. So we are leaving

the pictures here for a moment, standing at attention and watching

them here, maybe you can't see them in London. The coffin draped in the

national flagg the pictures here for a moment, standing at attention and

watching them here, maybe you can't see them in London. The coffin

draped in the national flag. And now the crowds cheering as it goes past,

somebody throwing flowers. This elegant amphitheatre, it was

one of the finest buildings in South Africa with its pillars and very

grand inside, the buildings that the President himself occupies and the

executive officers. And offices very fine. Interesting that Pretoria was

a central place in the Boer War, Winston Churchill was imprisoned

here, it was from Pretoria he escaped. Pretoria was besiegedburg

the Boer War, and it is named after Pretorius who fought the battle at

Blood River, that the Africans always remember, that they culled up

at night and slaughtered with guns which the Zulu forces didn't have

and slaughtered hundreds. I think we can now join along the route on

Madiba Street our correspondent. I'm at the gardens of the union

buildings here where Nelson Mandela's body is expected to lie in

state for the next three days. We understand the prosession has left

the military hospital on the other side of town. What I can tell you

about the picture you are seeing now, all law enforcement authorities

have already begun lining the streets here in Pretoria. Towards

that end the military is already there, the traffic police officers

are also on the other end, and of course the police will also be here.

Of course there is a very heavy police presence, because we are

expecting the convoy to move past this road before it is taken into

the Union Buildings To lie instate. Members of the public have started

to gather here early this morning. Today is a totally and completely

different mood compared to the party and the celebration that we saw at

FNB Stadium, at the Mel rial where over 90 heads of state were

represented and thousands of South Africans had gathered there. Today

is some what of a somber feeling that is going on. A lot of South

Africans, this is the first for many of them that they will be seeing

such happenings, particularly in South Africa's new democratic state.

There has never been a file past of this magnitude and we are expecting

Nelson Mandela's body to arrive here in the next half an hour. Can I ask

your movements are you going to stay here and wait? So members of the

family now have started to arrive and the mmander of the guard

explaining them what the procedure will be.

A stray helicopter keeping an eye on things, and the prosession still on

its way here to the Union Buildings. I have to say these pictures are not

exactly under our control, hence the slightly happen hazard nature of --

haphazard nature of what we are able to show you. We haven't yet seen

people queueing, waiting to come up to the Union Buildings, but there

from that helicopter perhaps the scene of the coffin going through

down town Pretoria. A long prosession of cars behind it.

Well, while we are watching this static picture, Dr Mamphela

Ramphele, do you think Nelson Mandela's death will arouse very

powerful emotions, long-lasting emotions in the general public of

South Africa. You talked about your own feelings? Absolutely, we began

to see it yesterday at the FNB stadium. Here at the symbolic site

of Government, where he was inaugurated and now where people are

going to bid a final farewell to him, it will forever be a place

etched in the memory of South Africa. Across generations. This is

the Metropolitan Police escort for the hearse. It goes past the central

prison in Pretoria where Nelson Mandela was first imprisoned,

imprisoned for five years for leaving the country illegally, if

you can believe, and he served the part of his sentence here in

Pretoria. Given prisoner number 1947662. His famous prison number

was 46664, and the 64 stood for the year he was incarcerated, previously

he was 64462, a dismal place, and I think Winnie Mandela was also in

prison for a time in the Pretoria jail. I have been joined here now in

the studio, I'm delayeded to say by Mosiuoa Lekota, Terror as he is

called, but for his prowess on the footballfield! You have had a

distinguished career with the ANC, you have been First Minister in the

federal system here. And I know that you are now rather dubious about the

way the ANC has gone. But before we talk about that, we were talking

about the early connections with Nelson Mandela, what was your first

meeting with him? How did you come across Mandela. You were a much

younger man than he? We met on Robben Island, when I got to Robben

Island with my BPC colleagues, after we had been arrested following

celebrations of the independence of Mozambique. You were a student

activist really weren't you at the time? That's correct. So when we got

to Robben Island, they had already been there of course. We arrived

there, we had been arrested in 1974 with Mozambique's independence,

after two years of detention and trial we arrived on Robben Island,

at the end of 1976. That is where we met him. Were you very, I get the

impression there was a period when Nelson Mandela almost faded from

public memory, because his name couldn't be put in the newspapers,

his name couldn't be used on radio, were you very aware of Mandela and

the other people who were imprisoned at the trial when you arrived at

Robben Island, or were they a curiosity to you because they had

faded? No, no, no, I must say up front, our generation did not have

his name in the newspapers and TVs and so on, but his name was quite

common in the homes. Even behind closed doors, mostly the communities

spoke about their leaders, our leaders, so we grew to knew we had

leaders imprisoned on Robben Island. We couldn't generally say how they

looked like, because their pictures were not allowed there. You had only

seen the very young Mandela? That's correct. I will talk to you more

about it in a moment, it is all very fascinated? We didn't know as much

about them as we came to know about them when they got there. It wa

There was a bit of curiosity on our part to know them. I must say there

was a dichotomy about this, we were terrified of going to jail, and yet

we were also curious to go and see him and find out about how they were

doing and what they would be saying. I want to talk to you in a moment

about what impression you formed. You were young men and he was a much

more mature man, but let's just join the route of this prosession towards

the Union Buildings. The funeral cortege moved past here about 10-15

minutes ago, it went by in flash, it took quite a few people by surprise,

and it was quite difficult to get a glimpse of the casket, draped in the

South African flag in the back of it. It zipped past here about 10-15

minutes ago, some of the people here have dispersed since the cortege

went past. Many have stayed around, with me is Zenele, one of those

here, what were your thoughts when you saw the former President's body

go past here? He was very much happy, I'm here to pay my last

respects for my President, when I see the President passing here I was

very happy, I was so excited to see to him. I want to say to the family,

Mr President Mandela took good care of us, we really appreciate the way

we grew in the country. We are free, we know how to respect each other in

this country. Yes. Joseph, if you could come in here, you were one of

those who saw the cortege go by, what were your thoughts when that

happened? It was a very sad moment to see Dr Mandela passing, we saw

the coffin and we had to pay our last respects, but did it is a very

sad situation to all of the South Africans now. Before you saw the

cortege move past, had it really sunk into you that made is no --

Madiba is no longer here? It was a dream and I thought it was a dream

and it is not true, but today after seeing the coffin I told myself it

is true, that is what is happening, so we have to deal with that all

South Africans, the family, they have to deal with that situation.

Did you have similar thoughts as well that it was not true? Yes, we

did not see him. But it was a very sad moment when our president passed

away. How important was it for you to be here in person to say

goodbye? Because we have not seen Madiba for a very long time, as he

was sick, I thought today it would be an honour to be here and pay my

last respects to Madiba. That is why I am here today. It is interesting,

we're not far from the building where Nelson Mandela was handed down

that sentence that send him to rob an island in the 1960s? Our

president, we could not see him, but it was very sad when he passed away.

We will pay our last tribute to the president. What does Nelson Mandela

mean to you? He was the Lord, he was the father. He has been a father and

president, everything to this country. If it wasn't for him we

would be oppressed in this country and be behind. We would be behind,

he fought for us. He is South Africa. What are your feelings for

his family today? I feel very sad for them because they have lost a

father and an icon to all of us. It is a very difficult situation for

them. They should stay strong, stay together to get past this situation.

Thank you both for joining us. That is the scene here. A few people are

still hanging around. It seems like this will continue over the next two

days as Nelson Mandela's body lies in state.

We have been joined in the studio, over the din of the television

helicopters getting the pictures, I am delighted we are joined by George

Bizos, the distinguished lawyer who defended Nelson Mandela at his trial

and has defended Winnie Mandela many times. A close friend of the family.

We are keeping an eye on the procession, obviously. I want to ask

your feelings, how did you get to know Nelson Mandela? You were a

young lawyer, you come from Greece, how did you first get to know him?

In 1948 we were students. He was the head of the African National

Congress youth league. 1948 was a bad year for democracy and human

rights. There were protests at the University. Nelson Mandela was the

regular protests speaker. I was influenced by that. I became part of

the group that was protesting. That is the beginning of a long story

which we will go into in a moment. But let's just watch the scene at

the Union Buildings as the coughing is taken from the Hearst and will be

moved into this huge half -- arch where they have built for it to lie

in state. The Escort of the military police in White helmets at the

front. The guard of honour to the right. The band is just beyond them.

The heads of the Armed Forces and the chaplain general. And Ndaba,

Nelson Mandela's grandson. A controversial figure in the family,

waiting for his grandfather's body to be brought out.

The chaplain general of the Armed Forces, in uniform. But with the

purple stole of his office as chaplain general. The helicopters

are still buzzing over, as we are waiting for the coffin to be brought

out. They were commenting on the noise above them. And so, on this

hot morning, it is now just after 7:50am here in Pretoria. We are

waiting for what will be, first of all a private moment when the family

greet the body and the coffin and then a public moment when the

politicians do. And that to be followed by the public at large.

These are senior officers of the services with black armbands, who

will be the guard that carries the coffin, the coffin bearers.

The band now plays the national anthem.

the terrace of the Union Buildings on the higher hill in Pretoria with

the guard of honour and the pallbearers, about to carry Nelson

Mandela's coffin from the Hearst which brought it from the hospital

in Pretoria, up to the quadrangle at the top. It is there, where it will

lie in state. Doctor, who do we have coming here,

apart from the service chiefs, is at the family? Yes, the family. His

grandchildren, his son-in-law, the husband of his daughter. And members

of the panel who sang his praises yesterday. They were very moving

doing that? Yes, and very fitting tribute to their grandad. I am

joined in the studio, if we can come back into the studio for a moment.

Professor, this service, this ceremony, to what extent is it a

traditional, African service we are seeing here? First of all, thank you

for that question. This service here is where people will go and view the

body of Nelson Mandela, first they are paying their last respects. And

number two, it is helping them to release him to go. And number three,

it is also a healing process. In other words, now that people have

seen him, that is the body, even those who did not accept yet that he

is gone, they are now able to say they have seen him and he is gone.

And that might be some form of healing to them. There are moments

when the family actually speak to the body, is this one of them or is

that at the actual burial itself? That is right. I was told yesterday

you speak to the body to tell it where it is and what has happened to

it? That is right. The belief is, even though the person has passed

away, but he is not regarded as actually dead, dead, dead. So people

can still communicate with him. Remember now he is becoming an

ancestor of the family. So people must, from time to time, communicate

with him. They also believe that he is awake, so he can hear and that is

why they need to always tell him, this is where we are now, we are

going there. This is what is going to happen now, so he is aware of

what is happening around. Is this done to whispering to the coffin, or

talking out loud like you are talking to me? Sometimes people can

talk like I am talking to you now, so other members of the family can

hear what is being said. I think most of the time that is what is

happening. Let's go back to the fashion -- processional route and

joint our correspondent down in Madiba Street. This is Nelson

Mandela's rainbow nation, we see black and white people holding hands

down here as they gather to pay tribute to Nelson Mandela. His

convoy has just driven past, the coffin was draped in a South African

flag. Very, very emotional scenes here, in fact, I saw some members of

the military wiping away some tears. As you can see people are waving

South African flags. They are also singing songs, praising Nelson

Mandela. They are saying that Nelson Mandela led an army that liberated

South Africa back in 1994. This is the first time that there are such

scenes here, these are the first time that the file past of a former

head of state is taking place, after South Africa became a democratic

state in 1994. This is a different mood compared to what was going on

yesterday. It was a big party celebrations were going on

yesterday, but today the mood is some what somber, people are seeing

a reality, it is finally hitting home that Nelson Mandela is no more,

his body... What happened? Thank you very much, we will go back

down there from time to time into the streets. George Bizos, going to

the trial itself, where you defended Nelson Mandela, I want to ask you

this, were you surprised that those accused didn't get the death

penalty? Not surprised. But we feared as soon as the arrest took

place in October 1963, and the Government supporting media were

shouting from the roof tops that there would be only one sentence.

That was the death sentence and they compared the accused as the

terrorists of Germany and Italy and Palestine. It was thought that the

death sentence would be inevitable. But on October 10th, if I remember

the day correctly, the United Nations passed a resolution calling

for the release of Mandela and the other accused. Every nation, except

for South Africa voted against and Portugal abstained. The decision was

almost unanimous. This gave us a lot of hope that even though the regime

publicly said that they didn't care about universal public opinion, that

they would be influenced by the world bodies and their statements.

Do you think the judge in the case was being guided by the Government

and told in effect what he should do, or was he making his own mind up

independently? We were rather fortunate that we had judge Devitt,

he was not hanging judge. He had accept tensed someone to death and

then it emerged that the conviction was arrived at by falsee provided by

the investigating officer, and that gave him great distaste about the

death sentence. So there was an independence in the judiciary even

though they were in an apartheid system and the lude File Not Found

they were -- -- and they were in the apartheid system and sentencing

people to dead? There was a little gap which enabled lawyers like

myself and many others to actually be able to put arguments together

which were unanswerable and we did succeed in some instances. We will

go on down the tale of the years, I want to hear your reflections on

Nelson Mandela himself. Let's just go back up there to the Union

Buildings and join George again. Thank you very much, yes, so it was

just a few moments ago that Nelson Mandela's body was brought here, and

it was one of those spine tingling moments if you like. So much of the

last few days has been about noise, about the stadium and so on, and

here, when we saw the guard of honour salute, as Nelson Mandela's

body was brought in, and The National Anthem being sung. That in

itself, The National Anthem was a product of Nelson Mandela's

determination to reconcile black and white South Africans. Part of the

old of a free kick can that -- Afrikana and the song swung by South

African blacks over the ages. I have been told we can just see an edge of

it lying on the side and the top has been taken off, now we are waiting

for the official dignitaries, the families, the close family members

to come around, and get their chance to spend just a few private moments

with the body of Nelson Mandela. You see it is difficult for the family,

they have had, throughout his wife, they have had to share Nelson

Mandela -- throughout his life, they have had to share Nelson Mandela,

not just with this country but the whole world. If you go on the street

I'm sure you have heard people referring to him as "Tata" Mandela,

it is a term of respect but also means father. You could see why it

would be so important for the family to be given just those few moments

of private grief with him later on. George we were talking about how you

met Mandela, about the trial, what was he look to defend. He must have

been a very difficult man, I suspect, to defend, because he was

famous for being stubborn and having his own views about how things

should be done? That is an overstatement. Are you sure! We were

a team of lawyers, led by Mr Fisher, Berenger, Arthur Cheskilson, he

became our Chief Justice. We got on quite well together. You were friend

with Mandela, weren't you really, in the end? We became friends. As young

lawyers in the 1950s we did cases together, I defended him, I defended

Winnie. And we were quite good friends. He wrote the 44-page

statement, we discussed it. He took advice. We were given some advice by

Anthony Sampson from the great journalist from the United Kingdom.

He actually said that, he guided us how to paragraph it. Because he said

that the journalists usually read the first three and last two pages

of any long document! So that we must rearrange the paragraphing. He

took out our advice that he shouldn't challenge the judge to

sentence him to death and put the words "if needs be". If needs be he

was prepared to die for it? In the final paragraph. But there was no

conflict between us. We spent a lot of time preparing the case. You

defended Winnie, and numerous times, 20 times? Something like that. What

for? There was this offences because she had not stayed where she was

told to stay, that sort of thing? They were minor matters. The first

time I defended her in the late 50s, a security policeman came and said

he was going to arrest her because you didn't have a pass. She said in

her characteristic way, get out of my bedroom I want to dress before

you arrest me properly for jail. And he grabbed her arm and pulled her,

she said some how or other her elbow came across her and he fell down.

And he filed a complaint of assault against him! I got a call from

Nelson, and he said this was shortly after they were married. He said

with laughter, "George, I've married trouble". That was only the

beginning! It was the beginning. I defended her successfully, because I

think the policeman was actually embarrassed by the fact that he was

floored by a woman! But are you an admirer of Winnie still, did you

admire her through thick and thin? I feel for her. Because I think that

she really has become a tragic figure. And I think that the film

that I saw recently, Long Walk To Freedom has actually captured her

position. Because there was a moment when he was on Robben Island and she

was exiled to some place in the north, where she was really keeping

his name alive, publicly? Absolutely. The minister of justice,

his constituency was the town that she was exiled to. He actually tried

to settle the matter. Because the residents, the white residents said

that sending Winnie to this place will not change Winnie but the up to

will never be the same again! We are just seeing a long prosession of

white cars and we don't know, I would tell you if I knew what they

were, of course. And I don't know what they are, indeed nobody seems

to know what they are. But what we do know is that along this terrace,

in time, will come members of the Government and officials and maybe

these are some of them, and that in the end, members of the public will

be bused up here in an hour or so. Let's rejoin Clive for a moment and

George we will come back because it is very interesting what you are

telling us. Let's join Clive on Church Street. Clive.

Yes, there were cheers and shouts as the funeral cortege pass bid our

position here. The road behind me is slowly being opened up to traffic

and there are still quite a few people as can you see or hear behind

me who saw his body pass by. It was over in a flash, and took quite a

few people by surprise. You had the whirr of military helicopters above

you, and then the military police, and then the body came quickly. We

have a few people who saw what happened. What was going through

your mind when you saw the former President's body fly pass by her? I

was is pleased, if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be here, it was the

greatest thing I have seen in my life, I was so happy. That is why it

was so important to be here? I just wanted to see him passing for the

last time. What does Nelson Mandela mean to you? Nelson Mandela means

everything. We did not see him enough because it was rushing, so I

want to see him now. We thank you for Madiba, we thank him for

freedom. Viva! He did go past very quickly, did

that take you and everyone by surprise? We thought it was going to

drive slowly, but it did pass quickly. But it is OK. As long as we

bid him farewell. What about the future now Nelson Mandela is no

longer here. Are you confident about the future? Yes I am, we can make

it. What we have learned from Nelson Mandela, we can still learn and

might think the future is still great because we have learned a lot

from him. Thanks for joining us. This is the scene here on the

streets of Pretoria. Back to you, David.

This is the first day of three days of Nelson Mandela's lying in state

at the Union Buildings in Pretoria. Each morning he will be brought from

the hospital where he was once treated and where his body has been

embalmed and brought in a coffin with a glass topped elite, to these

buildings. This is the route it takes through Pretoria. Here he is

arriving at the Union Buildings. He arrived here, escorted by the

police. On the front side of the Union Buildings, just below the

amphitheatre where just under 20 years ago he took the office of

president. These scenes took place three quarters of an hour ago, or

so. His grandson, Mandla Mandela and the band playing the national

anthem. The casket is carried by senior

officers. The chaplain general of the forces is in attendance. And

they are going to be carrying the cough into a pedestal, which has

been placed for the lying in state. -- coffin. So those scenes, three

quarters of an hour or so ago. We will be here for the first

procession or group of members of the general public to go through to

pay their respects. I was talking to you, you have each got very powerful

memories of the years of apartheid and what followed. I want to pick up

with you, you were a young man and you went into Robben Island because

you had been a student protester. Did you expect to find, as some

people thought they would find, the old ANC guard, rather... I don't

know, dismayed, exhausted? Or did you expect to find them still

fighting the cause when you arrived? To be fair to everybody. We had

never met them before. The fact they were still on Robben Island for many

of us meant they remained committed to the struggle. They could have

left if they have said they will not take part in any more politicising?

Indeed. We also knew the regime had made efforts to try and get some of

the people to abandon the struggle. The fact they had remained there and

there was no talk of them relenting. But we could not form an

impression. We were very jury is to find out what people they were.

Could you meet them face-to-face? Not immediately, but we could steal

moments. Where we were locked up when we arrived, we could get into

some of the cells that looked into the yard where they were. They would

also know from the underground network from the prisoners, there

when you people who have been put in there. Even got some information.

When we spoke to them, we found them not at all intimidated by the fact

they were serving life sentences and in these conditions as risen as.

Meals that were by far below par. And they were welcoming to us, they

were keen to know what was going on outside. They did not have much

information, you were like a newspaper arriving telling them

everything from the football scores to what was going on politically? If

you were the last prisoner to arrive, even if you were 18 months

already there, as long as you were the last one, you always had to tell

what was happening outside because you were the one with the freshest

news from outside. We found them warm and welcoming. In what sense

was he the leader? We know, down the years he has always said I am a

loyal servant of the ANC, when I go to have in the first thing I will

look for is the ANC branch, and all of those things he has said. Do you

feel he was the first among equals or was a real leader, like a general

with an army? There is no doubt he was the leader of all of us. There

were many political leaders in the ANC, but he was the spokesman for

all of us. On hunger strike, if there were serious complaints the

prisoners had, he was the one who was asked to go and table the case

for the prisoners with the authorities. I observed, as time

passed on, it was partly because all of us recognised he had a very

steady, bold and authoritative way of stating the case of the prisoners

are objectively and without fear, but at the same time without

alienating the authorities. All of the political prisoners felt that

when we did send him through, we did get the success we had. In the daily

life on Robben Island, I think it must be said that not only did he

always tried to keep the prisoners together, even across the political

divide, but he also had an approach to the Administration, which started

to win the authorities. The prison head, the warders, to win them

over, so they became part of the struggle against apartheid, so they

made life more bearable for the prisoners and created conditions

that sustained prisoners. The harsher the conditions, the

likelihood of collapsing some of the people is higher. But when you make

conditions more bearable, you sustain the capacity of the human

being to struggle on. It was an extraordinary Tarrant -- talents, to

work out how to deal with your enemy. It was a talent he had in

spades? Absolutely. From way back in the early 1950s, when Nelson Mandela

decided for the youth league and the ANC that it had the support, not

only of African people, but coloured people, people of Indian origin and

a substantial number of white people and particularly the religious

leaders that looked after their families, the families of the

political prisoners. And he was the author in his own mind of an agenda.

Start with the Afrikaner warders, persuade them they have nothing to

fear when fundamental, political change takes place in the country.

He would speak to them in Afrikaans, he registered as a

student of Afrikaans with the University by correspondence. And he

at Chile discussed their personal problems. He was a lawyer, if they

wanted some advice he would help them with their problems. He spoke

to them in Afrikaans. The Brigadier in charge of the political prisoners

in Pretoria actually saw through what Nelson Mandela was busily doing

in jail. And when he came and wanted to speak to him, Nelson spoke to him

in Afrikaans. He stopped him and he said, " your accent is terrible,

speak to me in English". And he won them over. He was, as has been said,

the leader. But one thing about Nelson Mandela is, he never said "I"

, he always said "we" . I talked to him about the use of

violence, turning to violence, and he did say it was a decision he

first took and presented to the ANC and won them over to it. He was not

alone. I don't know this specific statements, but I was party to it

because I was sharing Chambers with the first member of the bar and

meetings took place with my office. It was a controversial decision for

the ANC, wasn't it? Against the principles? Yes, there was a

document which started off the time to meet violence with violence. It

was something they have two persuade people about. Especially the chief,

because he had won the peace prize. Nelson never took a decision on his

own. But he would instigate ideas? Yes, because when he came back from

his travels in Africa and to the United Kingdom, he actually was

persuaded, particularly by the newly liberated African states, like

Algeria for instance that unless they go over to violence, the enemy

will win. We have been hearing about the ANC and the African National

Congress led by with Nelson Mandela, you never joined the ANC, Steve Biko

never joined the ANC. What was it about this movement that George has

just said, combined white people, Indians, coloured people and

Africans, what was it that stopped people like you joining in and

saying instead, we have got this other thing, it is called back

consciousness, a different approach. In what way way you different in the

way you saw apartheid, or in the way you saw dealing with the Nationalist

government? When we started being activists, the ANC and many of those

liberation movements were banned. You had to make a choice. You going

to operate above board or underground? We chose to operate

above board. We saw the fear and paralysis that had gripped South

Africans. We were determined the fear comes from a sense of

inferiority. How else can you explain a majority being calmed by

search a tiny minority. The fact of the matter is, when people lost the

fear of their oppressor, they wanted to take oppressors on with stones,

the whole range of mass protests and action. So, we were not voting

against the ANC, we were voting for a new approach, which was if you

free the mind of the oppressor and the oppressed from the control of

the oppressor, in this case the issue of identity. We were the first

organisation that pulled together, not people as Africans, coloureds

and Indians, but we encouraged South Africans who were being

discriminated against to think of themselves as a solid majority

block, that by insisting on freeing their minds from inferiority

complex, freed white people from the superiority complex. Did you have

white people in consciousness? They had many white supporters? The fact

of the matter is our organisation was a young organisation that

acknowledged the figure. You had to start by freeing the mind of those

who lead the struggle. To call yourself a nonwhite, and say you are

a liberation actor was a bit of a contradiction in terms. We will come

back in a moment. Let as talk about the ANC and where things stand now.

Sorry if my voice, it is the dry air of Pretoria it is getting to me, I

think, maybe it is the heat in the studio! We have been talking about

the prison years, let's just hear from Nelson Mandela himself talking

about his prison years. This was an interview I did with him in 2002, I

think. When young people say to you, what

was it like to be in jail for 27 years, what do you say to them? How

do you explain? Well, firstly it is difficult for me to imagine that I

was in jail for 27 years. It looked like it was very fast. Fast? Very

fast, because we were a jolly group of people. We met comrades who were

widely travelled, like Neville Alexander, who qualified in

Frankfurt. Sorry to interrupt you, even the closest of friends don't

want to spend 27 years together? Well, if you mix with such a crowd

that we mixed with, you wouldn't feel the length of time so much. Are

you really saying 27 years doesn't seem a long time to you? No. From

the point of view of the years, if you add them, it was a long time.

But we became a happy crowd, especially because our group were in

single cells, and you get an opportunity which you did not get

outside to sit down and think. It is only when I was in jail that I

discovered that sitting down to think is an important part of your

political programme. It makes it sound like a monk! No. But to look

back on the period that we have covered and to see the mistakes that

you committed, sometimes when you are convinced that you did not

behave like a human being, people who be fended you when you arrived

-- we friended you when you arrived in Johannesburg, when you knew

nobody, when you were poor, once you became a lawyer and some measure of

attention was focussed on you, you forgot them. You became arrogant?

Yes. You forgot them and I became very sorry to think of that. But I

became sorry because I had an opportunity to sit down and think. I

can see in 27 years you might learn that wisdom, but when you first went

to jail surely you felt something different, didn't you? You didn't

immediately feel now I have a chance to think? When the fight between

ourselves and the warders took place as well on the island. Because the

are four of us and I walked behind and two in front, I was behind with

all the members of the Communist Party. Then they wanted us to walk,

they wanted to humiliate us. When they said we should move, they say

"huk", which they say to cattle. To drive the cattle along? So we then

started, they stopped us, and said look this is not Pretoria, this is

Robben Island, you must carry out our instructions. So I said to

Terfel, the former member of the Communist Party, let's go in front,

we went in front. And we walked even slower, they stopped us, we said you

are wasting your time. This is your way of moving. You were stubborn

really from the start? It is not stubbornness, it is a question of

fighting. The idea to humiliate us, we had to fight that. Otherwise we

co-operated with authorities. You weren't a patient man were you, you

were a head strong man, how did you work out how to do this? Well as a

young man, it is true, as a young and inexperienced person I was

headstrong, but being in jail put a different character to you,

precisely because you had the opportunity to sit down and think

and to plan your future. And you realised, by the way, let me tell

you, that when I was now practising as an attorney I changed most of my

approach towards the rulers of the country because we had the past

system. If a person did not stay in a place for 15 years or failed to

work for one employer for ten years, even if he failed for a month he

could be chased out. You knew that you couldn't do anything, but I

would go to the top officer and say to him I'm approaching you as a

person, this man has stayed here for 14 years, he has got a house, he has

a wife, he has got children at school. You are sending him to place

where he has never been, because they would ask him, where were you

born? And the man says I was born in burg, what about your father, where

was he born, he was born in Freiburg, within 72 hours he must go

back to Freiburg. Are you saying you had respect for that ruling Afrikana

class because of being a lawyer? No. When people help you in

difficulties, you have no alternative but to respect them. And

I found that the Afrikanas, their at that time tout was not homo --

attitude was not homgenous, that they acted as part of a bigger

group, but in individual capacities they did exactly the opposite.

Because that officer you would go to say and say I'm coming to you as a

Christian, here is a man who is being sent to place he has never

been, he would say me the papers and phones and cancels and gives the

fellow permission to work. You must be grateful towards people like

that. In prison, I'm really wanting to talk today about the prison more

than before. Were you ever scared? Scared? Yes. Well this is sometimes

a question of philosophy. I was scared many times. The day we

arrived in prison, two officers came and they were coming in order to

give us what is called a "carry on". In order to ill-treat us. To beat

us. To the captain says to one of us, "why is your hair so long? "

Like this boy, pointing at me. So I said, look here, I couldn't finish,

he then rushed towards me, I was frightened, I was trembling, but I

pretended as if I was brave. And I said, you touch me and I will take

you to the highest court in the land, by the time I've finished with

you, you will be as poor as a church mouse. He stopped! But I was

frightened as he was rushing towards me. But we have a duty which

sometimes makes you more brave than you are. This is the bluff I made!

And that frightened him. And of course when you have been frightened

and somebody notices and withdraws then you become even more arrogant,

and from that moment I was arrogant. But I was covering my fear. I was

afraid. Those moments happened many times in prison. But you see

intimidation, there was a great deal of it, but it also depends on how

you behave. If you fight right from the first day and send out the

message that "I am my own master, I am Captain of my soul", that is the

impression that you are going to give. Your enemies are going to be

influenced by that attitude. You were never hit, were you? No, no.

Why not, they hit everybody else, they hit all the youngsters who came

in? Yes I know. I was never hit myself, but there were things which

were more painful than the physical blow. They beat up a chap and he was

swollen, and I took him to the head of the prison and I said, I have

come to lodge a complaint, he was beaten by a warder so-and-so. The

officer took down notes and I left, four or five days there after they

called me back. You came here and complained that somebody was hit,

who was it? So I said but you know very well. I brought him to you. You

took down notes. He says, no. Was it so-and-so, I said I can't remember

his name. He then called the chap who was in another room. And the

fellow came forward now the swelling had disappeared, Mandela says you

were hit by a warder. No, I was never hit. But why must he say you

were hit, and he said I was telling lies. Now that was very painful. For

me to take somebody with marks like they were assaulted, then he comes

up and just says no I was never assaulted. Do you know what they

did, they used to give us one dish of meal with beans, they decided to

give him two dishes that was enough to bribe him. Those things I had no

so many experiences of that nature. Why did they never physically

assault you, did they see you as somebody set apart, as a kind of

"leader" from the start that they had to look after in a way? No, I

was a lawyer outside and everybody knew. I fought discrimination

outside. As a prisoner I was visited by top officials, locally and from

overseas. Cabinet ministers used to visit me. Not at the start? No,

cabinet ministers used to visit me right from the start. Kruger, one of

the most notorious visited me before I finished a year. Did you ever

think they might try to kill you in jail? Well, there was that, as you

know, there was a plan to kill me. I only read it after I had come out.

There was a plan, the plan was they are going to get somebody going to

get somebody to sayer going to escape. But when I left on the

island because I was escaping from justice they would kill me. Did you

think you would be poisoned or shot or do something to wipe you out, or

was it not a fear for you? That was never my fear. My fear was purely a

plan to kill me by pretending that I was run ago I way from prison. --

running away from prison. That was my fear. I turned down a lot of

offers. Some of them made my fellow prisoner, they were genuine, you

know Eddie Daniel, a member of the liberal party was thinking of those

plans, that look, you are needed outside. He was genuinely and my

best friend, he is still my best friend. But I feared that although

he himself was genuine, if we tried, there were others around the island,

if for example they sent a helicopter to pick me up, it would

immediately be caught. That was Nelson Mandela talking about his

prison years. We might have more later on about when he came out of

risen. You have-nots seen that before? I have not seen that, but I

did have discussions. I saw him every couple of months. Winnie was

very inventive in finding reasons why I should visit her husband. To

get guidance as to which school the children should go to. You reused as

an intermediary? I was the lawyer appointed by Nelson. They were

entitled to appoint a lawyer. I saw him fairly regularly. As time went

on, I became a messenger between him and Oliver Tambo. But carrying

messages very discreetly, presumably? Were you overheard on

Robben Island? For certain. You spoke in a code? We had a way of

communicating. We would have a sheet of paper and we would have keywords.

We would point to a word. He would say, " it is OK, you can do that".

The other thing was, I was there for the day. He invariably never said

this is my view, we will have two break at lunchtime and I have two

consoles Walter Sisulu and get his opinion on the issue you want to

carry out of here. This is why I say, the word "I" was common. We are

joined by the leader of the Freedom party. Just tell us your feelings

about Nelson Mandela. You had moments when you are very close and

moments when you were less close, over the years? Apart from anything

else, apart from the fact I was a member of the ANC, we were also

personal friends, in fact to the end of his life. Both of us went through

a lot of pain when some people tried to drive a wedge between us. The

rapture that took place between the ANC and the Encarta, took place in

London in 1979 when Oliver Tambo invited me to the delegation to talk

about the issue of the armed struggles and the sanctions. I

remember there was a time you are not speaking to each other, or the

ANC and you were not speaking to each other? Yes, I was coming to

that. You could not embrace any of those policies. But there was

nothing acrimonious about it. We were supposed to get in touch, but

it did not happen. But during all of the time, that you medication

between me and Madiba was never disrupted. To the extent, in 1989

when the tragic conflict cost 20,000 lives, he wrote me a letter and he

said as soon as I am released, the two of us must meet to address this

violence. As you know, nobody campaigned for his release more than

myself. To the extent FW de Klerk, in 1990 when he announced his

release, my name was the only one mentioned of someone who helped him

reach a decision. When he came out, Madiba phoned me about meeting, but

it just did not happen. In Johannesburg, some of the tradition

leaders said to me, how come you have not met up to now. Madiba said,

in fact the leader of the UDF and ANC almost throttled me and said,

under no circumstances must you meet that man. So we were not to meet

until the 29th of January, 1991, which was almost a year after his

release. It was very painful for both of us. There was nothing

between us. The warmth and friendship had not been spoiled. Did

you despair at any time during the terrible period when there was that

fighting and the hostilities in Soweto where 20,000 people were

killed? Did you think this country would fall apart, it would not

achieve what it did achieve in the end, which is a one man, one-vote

democracy? I was very worried about it. Let me pick up the story when we

met a delegation of the ANC and a delegation from the Encarta. We

decided that Madiba and I would address joint rallies of the ANC

members. A few days after that I was invited to go and talk. It was an

opportunity. But I was told he was no longer coming. So I phoned him.

He said a member of the ANC had brought him to Johannesburg's office

of the ANC, and past leaders of the ANC from my province told him not to

go there. So in the meantime, the violence escalated, people were

killed and so on. Both of us were ambushed. When Madiba and I were

ambushed, there were several meetings. Religious leaders, Bishop

Desmond Tutu and so on, they tried to address this by lens. It was not

to be. -- violence. Many people died, you see. This issue is

misunderstood as an ethnic issue. But it was wrong. It was said the

Zulus were full of nonsense. The Zulus were what? Full of nonsense.

But this was a popular phrase at the time? What is your abiding memory of

Madiba? How do you remember him today when people are going past his

coffin behind us? Madiba will remain to me, a role model, he will remain

to me and at the Tom of what reconciliation is about. Also, he is

what forgiveness is about. In my case, the media tried to portray we

were enemies. We were never enemies. He and any particular

individual were never enemies. The institution prescribed any party

that got more than 10% in the vote would have a seat. He gladly offered

me a seat in the Cabinet as his Minister of home affairs. But not

only that, it did not mean to say things were OK, but he went further

and appointed me as African president when he and Tae Bo Mbeki

were not there. You can see the extent to which we trusted each

other. Can we talk about the ANC as it is now? You were very sceptical

about the way in the last 20 years the ANC has turned out as a

government of South Africa? Indeed. First of all, let me save the

lessons of Madiba, the practice he pursued when he became president,

take for instance the issue of respect for the law. Respect for the

judiciary. As head of state, when at some stage they wanted him to come

before the courts and give evidence, something has always been imparted

to us to say we must respect the three arms of state. He agreed and

personally wanted to be subject to cross-examination. Many others said

he should refuse. And politicians today who are charged with

corruption will not go the full course? One of the things he

emphasised is we must always keep a separation between party and state.

Today we can see departments of State, their re-sources being used

to advance the interests of their party. That part of thing, President

Mandela would never have allowed. People talk about a degree of

corruption, is there a great deal of corruption among people who have got

power and then use it wrongly to make fortunes for themselves and

line the nests of their family? It is not a question of what I believe.

Day to day, we see the executive, the head of state, Cabinet

ministers, even Administration employees, we see how they abuse

public resources for themselves. It is reported daily. I think we are

saturated with stories, with reports. In effect stealing public

money? This is one thing President Mandela would never, ever have

allowed. Is there any way out of this? The challenge now is for those

who believe in his legacy, who remember the teachings he gave us,

to insist we must elect men and women who faithfully will do

everything humanely possible, to run the affairs of state as he toured.

Respect the constitution, respect and public wee sources and carrying

ourselves as men and women who like himself, will always prioritise the

people of our country rather than ourselves and our families and

friends. Do you share this concern the way the ANC has developed over

the past 20 years? Absolutely, I agree 100%. Together, with him we

formed a coalition against corruption. Is there a way out?

Everybody says there are these complaint against the ANC but they

will win the election next year. Yesterday, even the funeral service

of Nelson Mandela was sullied by the brewing that took place. It was ANC

people building their own president. That speaks for itself. One of the

newspapers said they praise Nelson Mandela but buried President Zuma?

There is a way out. And the coalition, the corporation of the

parties we are putting together, we'll go to the electorate and say

to them, President Mandela brought with him from Robben Island, you're

right to vote, to put in government people you trust and if they

disappoint you, to change and put them out. It is your turn, power is

in your hands, Nelson Mandela left it in your hands. You must go to the

elections, you must go there and shoes men and women that, in your

view, will begin to change the situation and bring in practices in

keeping with Nelson Mandela. If you have just joined us on BBC One, we

have three distinguished South Africans here. We are talking now

about the future of South Africa, which will be going back to, and

their experiences over the past 20 years and before that. Let's at this

point have a look at what has happened so far today. Don't have

very many pictures of it, but we have, I'm glad to say, some. The

hearse arrived with Nelson Mandela's coffin draped in the flag of South

Africa, led by military escort going over the bumps on the road of the

terrace here, at the Union Buildings in Pretoria, on this high hill that

looks down over the city of Pretoria itself, that was build for the union

of South Africa at the turn of the last century. Escorted by a military

guard of honour, who played The National Anthem, and with

paul-bearers and with the grandson of Nelson Mandela watching.

And George is up there in the Union Buildings, George we haven't even

very much activity going up there, what can you see from your better

vantage point? Thank you, well what we can see, I was thinking about it

just now, it is probably a view that Nelson Mandela himself would have

seen. We're just a few paces away from the office he occupied in the

west wing of the Union Buildings. This building, by the way, is at the

highest point of Pretoria. You do see the whole of the city below me

here. And just right here in this amphitheatre, what is being renamed

as the Nelson Mandela Amphitheatre, it is just below Union Buildings, in

a moment you can see the structure and this is where Nelson Mandela's

body is lying in state. The motorcade, the guard of honour

brought the body here a little over an hour ago. Just a few moments ago

I actually walked away and was able to look into the structure and you

saw Nelson Mandela's body there lying in state. You got a powerful

sense that after all the activity there has been this week, his body,

on its own there, in the structure. And of course a reminder that for so

many years in his life he was this very solitary figure. Coming back to

events today and this morning, what we are waiting for is actually the

family. The family and some official dignitaries are expected to get

their chance to spend some time, a few moments of grief perhaps as

Nelson Mandela lies in state. After that about midday, the public will

be allowed. But the first priority is for the family, as I was saying a

little earlier, it is important in a way for the family to get that

chance. Because we watched them over the last few days, and they have had

to share this moment, their grief, with the public. He was such a

public figure, not just here in South Africa, but around the world.

So that's what will happen. We're told it could happen in the next

couple of hours or so. And the interesting thing is we have seen so

many different facets if you like of Nelson Mandela's life this week.

Yesterday there was that racaus memorial service in the FNB Stadium

in Soweto. That was really about the party. A lot of party leaders and

political speech, a lot of foreign dignitaries, today has been a bit

more formal. There was the guard of honour, the naval officers standing

by as Nelson Mandela lies in state. Then on Sunday there will be the

funeral in his home village of country Kunu. There will be the

formal person where he took the office of President, that is exactly

where he is now, and then the traditional Nelson Mandela, all

those things are very important parts of his life.

Thank you very much. George will be in Kunu for the funeral and we will

be reporting from here both on Saturday and Sunday. But now we go

to down town Pretoria, let's hear what's going on the streets. Nelson

Mandela has passed and the crowds are continuing to build, and loud

cheers as the coffin moved past, there was a massive crowd here and a

guard of honour from all South Africa's law enforcement agencies.

People were singing and chanting. I don't know if it is helicopters or

microphones, we will go back companies we can. Let's pick up

where we were talking about the future.

You were at the memorial yesterday, you heard the reaction whenever

President Zuma's name was mentioned. Do you think that is really

significant? George what's your view about the way that politics will go.

I know you are par excellence a lawyer but political lawyer as well?

Political in the sense that I never became a member of any political

organisation because as a member of bar you have to retain your

independence, which I have done. But, I was on the ANC's legal and

constitutional committee which Nelson Mandela addressed as soon as

he came out of prison. And he told us to put together a constitution

that is good for everyone in South Africa and not particularly the

African National Congress. He sat on the judge's bench when the

constitution, the constitutional court was established. He said the

last time he was in court was to hear whether he was to live or die

and here he was with 11 judges, of a new South Africa. Try and accept

this constitution, try and accept that lawful conduct is very

important in a democracy. To come to your question about yesterday. I

think that the booing of the President was unfortunate. And I

think that Mr Amophosa showed quite a lot of intelligence before the

President to spoke to try to remember that this was, you know, a

function to remember Nelson Mandela. He appealed not for people not to

talk and sing. He didn't say not to boo, because I think that he's too

clever a politician to be direct! But, but, Nelson Mandela expected

all of us in South Africa to have respect for the law, to support the

constitution and not to blame the constitution and the courts for the

wrongs that have been done and which are being done now. But there are

countries in Africa where elections are held which nobody really

believes in, where people retain power by corrupt elections, that is

not said about South Africa, is it? It is said? It is said about South

Africa. You know for instance we have had by-elections recently which

have been looked at by an independent commission because of

corruption, where people are taking state fund, where people are given

food and taken to place where is they don't post votes. Are you

saying the general election next year will be an election that can't

be relied on for being fairly conducted? Absolutely cannot be

relied on. Do you agree with that? I would say that there has been a

creeping tendency of rigging by-elections in a number of areas,

including some of the areas in the previous elections, and a number of

people in the free state and other provinces indicated. They were not

such a large scale, but I'm afraid at this time we have seen trends

that suggest that a lot of that, like the corruption that has crept

into the general administration of the country, I'm afraid that too is

a trend that we are likely to experience unless there is very

determined efforts to intervene and ensure that we curb it. That spells

real trouble if the constitution which George Bizos was decribing

fails to deliver free election, doesn't it? I with respect disagree

with my fellow citizens. The difference between the countries

that you have mentioned where there are, there is great interference

with an election and us is that we have a constitution, we have an

electoral commission which hearing complaints and whenever a complaint

can be substantiated the electoral commission has ordered a repetition

of the election. We have the courts that are frequently approached for

any irregularities, in Government administration. I don't think that

those who would compare us with some of the things that happened in the

rest of Africa, they are wrong. They are not based on facts. But the

interesting question then is, sorry to interrupt you, but the

interesting question then is if, in your view, George Bizos, the

elections are fairly conducted why is it that people go on voting for

an ANC which we have been talking about here in this studio today as

one that has failed to deliver for the poor people of the poorer

sections of society, housing, education and jobs. In other words,

which in any normal democracy would be thrown out? Well, there is a

difference, and it is not unique to South Africa. Liberation movements

have gained a reputation throughout the world. How many years did it

take for the Congress Party in India to lose an election? Because,

because of this aura of the liberation movement. So the aura

last, you agree with that I agree with that. It will be continuing to

last, take my personal position, I was brought up and my life was

influenced by people like Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Thabo Mbeki and the

heros of the "revolution", which was, thanks to Nelson Mandela a

substantially I would respect the memory of these people who have

passed away. It is true that many in the ANC will say we will follow in

the of Walter Sisulu and Nelson Mandela and many others.

Unfortunately they do not know, or they choose not to obey them. And I

remind my political party friends, irrespective of where they come

from, that Nelson Mandela gave up one third of his monthly salary for

the building of a school. We're not talking about that. He has been

sitting here shaking his head as you have been talking, George. What is

your view? We have heard this morning, for reasons that have been

stated here, with respect, that coming up elections, a delegation

from the ANC, there was a delegation from the government and delegations

from other parties, and a delegation from the European Union. They came

out with the verdict that the election and the ANC said it was

free and fair, the government said it was free and fair, my party said

it was not free and fair and the European Union said it was not. The

chairperson of the electoral commission came out and said it was

not free and fair. A friend of mine, his Excellency, said can you say has

there ever been a free election? He laughed and said, it is incredible.

The last election in Zimbabwe, all these people said was not. We do not

know what is going to happen on the ground, with respect. You served in

the Cabinet, US secretary of defence, you were at the heart of

government. Is it your view of the electorate has what George Bizos was

describing, a trust in the institution of the ANC, which means

it will be a long time before they are out of office, regardless of

what they achieve? When others decided to form the Congress of the

people, we were intimately involved in the running of affairs in the

ANC. We developed a clear impression, especially when

President Zuma took over, that the ANC had deviated from the cause. It

had deviated very fast. I want to say this, it was because... The ANC

detected resident Zuma and he has not appeared before the courts. Then

we said, where is equality before the law in this situation? So this

deviation from the promises of democracy made to our people started

to set in. Today, nobody can deny it. In the last election, I have

personally teaches, people that were heading to voting stations, who made

affidavits to the Congress of the People Party say, this is what

happened here, this is what happened there. In some provinces, Pollock

papers were thrown into the river. They found them there. -- ballot

papers. People could say, definitely there is corruption. But I promise

you, in the present situation, the by-elections, you see how the ruling

party takes food parcels to bribe people. People are intimidated into

believing that if they voted for somebody else they would lose their

pensions, they would lose their grants, which makes Crescent --

democracy -- a mockery of democracy. I am quite certain the mood we saw

yesterday in the stadium indicates the mood in this country. In the

African communities today, there is a sense of the ANC is not the ANC of

Nelson Mandela. You are a very young country in terms of demographics.

There is a lot of young people who are called born free, who did not

live under apartheid and don't know what it was like to live under

apartheid. They will say, you did very well, you did very well with

history, but we need education, we need services today. The ANC are not

doing these things for us. We need jobs. You cannot feed them history.

They say that. It is nothing to do with your ancestors. I said, which

ancestors of these who do not want education, which ancestors do not

want us to have jobs? If you are not doing good things for us, you cannot

be good ancestors for us. Let's return for a moment to the man we

are remembering here today in Pretoria with the lying in state in

the buildings behind us, the Union Buildings, Nelson Mandela. Just

hearing him again, talking about the experience of being in prison. He

also talked about why he chose not to retire when he could have

retired. This is what he had to say. Why didn't you retire? I have

retired. But, as I found out elsewhere, if there is one thing

that will kill me, almost immediately, is to wake up in the

morning without knowing what to do. The only thing that keeps me going

is the fact that I help out in the community, deal daily with questions

of poverty, unemployment and the question of health. And those are

things which are enriching one's life. Anyone who has that type of

programme is bound to be happy. Not withstanding the formidable

challenges you are facing, but the fact you are help being men and

women of all races with problems of poverty, ill-health, corruption,

does give you a feeling of satisfaction. Isn't it the

government's job to do that? No, the government is part of the agencies

that deal with these problems. As I pointed out on Sunday, we must stop

criticising the government. This is our government, it was voted in by

us. We must also help them and mobilise the community, to

understand what this government is doing. We must also make it clear

that the whole who have been liberated do not easily forget the

organisation that liberated them. If you look at Namibia, they have now

been 11 years in power and support is still going strong. The president

of Tanzanian has been in power for four decades because they are

grateful for being liberated. That is the position of the ANC. People

must know that the people who have been liberated or not as vicious as

some of the white parties and so on whose leaders were groomed by the

apartheid regime, they are thankful for what has come. It is not

surprising, I expected that. And especially now. Who is grateful for

what this government has done? The people who have been liberated,

Africans. Coloured people and Indians. Quite an important section

of the whites, who were not free as long as the majority of the

population were not free. Now, we have a president who has done very

well, whatever mistakes he may have committed, but in the overall

picture as I pointed out in the internal organisations of the ANC,

there is no Prime Minister or president in the history of this

country, who can boast of having done better than Thabo Mbeki. Are

you trying to do things the government cannot do? Now, I am part

of the government of the country. I may not hold any position, no power,

no influence, but I can address questions of poverty and questions

of disease and so on. I can support children, I can go to big and small

companies and say I have 300 children who have to go to high

school and university. All of them respond marvellously. So, I am happy

with the government of the country. Because no country can succeed, if

the future leaders are not educated. AIDS has killed more people than was

killed by all of the past wars and natural disasters put together. AIDS

is a war against humanity. And the only way of fighting it is not just

to leave it to the government, it is to mobilise the entire community and

big and small businesses and non-government organisations.

Everybody who can contribute towards the community, to understand the

important question of prevention. That there is no cure for AIDS and

it is wrong to stigmatise people... It is all of our duty, not just the

government. I have to say in our language, let us forget the past,

let's deal with the present and the future. Then the important question

of delivery to our people. These are the three things I was concerned

with. It was important, David, to marginalise the right-wing because

the white minority of this country have one of the most powerful armies

in Africa. Many people thought we would solve our problem by

organising the military. I led the formation of the liberation Army.

And I warned, no, this army were not forming for the purpose of defeating

the White Army, it will take us years to defeat them. We want to

focus attention on our grievances and also to change the fear of the

white man. When our military unit clashed with a unit of the Army and

put them into flight, you knock the confidence of the people. You told

us before you became President they said Madiba don't talk about AIDS,

because you will lose the election, when you won the election was it

something the elders or people didn't want you to talk about? No,

if you are talking about our people, Africans, they are very conservative

on questions of health and of sex. They don't want you to talk about

sex. When you are dealing with ingrained habits, which have been

there over centuries, you can't remove that within five or ten

years. Our people have been conservative. Only last year I went

with the CEO of my children's foundation and my children's

foundations and the CEO of the foundation. I went to one of the

biggest companies in this country, the flagship of South African

business and I said you are making a mistake because you are

concentrating on your workers in the urban areas, you are not doing

anything about workers in the countryside. Give us resources,

let's all go to the countryside, mobilise the traditional leaders

from village to village. That is how we are going to get people to

understand the importance of prevention. And the fact that when

you keep quiet you don't subject yourself to examination, you are

actually signing your death warrant. Fortunately they agreed to give us

resources to that effect. Nelson Mandela talking about why he

couldn't retire, didn't retire, and went on fighting, as we know, this

campaign on HIV AIDS and on education in this country after he

had given up his five years at the presidency. Sitting with me is

George Bizos, his lawyer, for many years, we have been rejoined by Dr

Mamphela Ramphele, who has a new party, a political party formed that

is going to fight the ANC at the next election, and Mosiuoa Lekota,

who was secretary for defence in one of these developments. I want to

pick up on a point implicit in what Mr Mandela said therepoint implicit

in what Mr Mandela said there. People say his presidency missed an

opportunity to deal with some social problems, particularly HIV/AIDS,

which he turned to with Bill Clinton after he left the presidency. Do you

accept that the first five years, as he said, had to be spent making sure

violence ended and the Afrikana and English speakers were on board and

this prevented him to do some of the things you might expect a president

to do? I would agree entirely with that. The issue of stablising

society generally by advancing the reconciliation, by ensuring that the

administration runs as it should, by making sure that for instance in the

provinces the various administrations, those were the very

crucial issues to stablise and undermine the tensions bourne of

apartheid. Whilst he did try to pay attention to the other issue,

suddenly five years was too short a perto address everything. Never the

-- a period to address everything. However he did initiate us in the

direction of looking at these issues. Even after he left we

continued to build on some of the things. Certainly the first term of

Thabo Mbeki tried to focus very strongly on the social issues.

Unfortunately the AIDS question simply went out of our control. And