EU Referendum - You Decide BBC News Special

For the first time in four decades, British voters are to be asked

if they want to stay in or leave the European Union.

Stay with us for the detail and the reaction.

Good evening and welcome to this BBC News special from Downing Street,

where earlier today, the prime minister emerged

from Number 10 to announce that a referendum will be held

on 23rd June to decide whether Britain remains

"One of the biggest decisions of our lifetimes".

This morning, he chaired a Cabinet meeting

spelling out the new terms of EU membership

Several of Mr Cameron's cabinet colleagues,

including the Justice Secretary Michael Gove,

they will campaign for Britain to leave the EU.

We'll have more on the detail of Mr Cameron's deal in a moment,

but first, our political editor Laura Kuenssberg reports

Just what has the Prime Minister opened up?

An argument that not all of his colleagues

As the Cabinet gathered to tell each other at last officially

An awkward entrance for one of the Prime Minister's closest

While ministers met, a crowd gathered.

It is no secret how big a decision this is

for us all. But what the Prime Minister would recommend

With the deal from Brussels in his back pocket,

We are approaching one of the biggest decisions

this country will face in our lifetimes -

whether to remain in a reformed European Union,

Our plan for Europe gives us the best of both worlds.

through which families across Britain get all the benefits of

being in the European Union, including more jobs,

lower prices and greater security.

But our special status also means we are out

of those parts of Europe that do not work for us,

and I will go to Parliament and propose

that the British people decide our future in Europe

through an in-out referendum on Thursday 23rd June.

The choice is in your hands, but my recommendation is clear.

I believe that Britain will be safer, stronger

and better off in a reformed European Union.

this is one of the biggest political moments for years.

He has finally confirmed that you will be

asked the biggest political question in decades, and he is putting at

stake our membership of the European Union, the unity of his party, and

Everyone thinks it is a good deal, the question is whether it was good

enough for everyone to think we should stay in Europe.

It is a great deal for Scotland.

Those who will fight him slipped out of the back door.

It is Iain Duncan Smith. I am a member of

the Cabinet. I am the Secretary for work and pensions. I am ringing you

Going straight to the headquarters of one

This will be remembered. But what is their case?

The first Cabinet minister to speak for out told me.

There are things we could and should be doing

in the interests of this country that we cannot do as members of the

EU. I want us to be able to control our borders, to limit the number of

people who come and live here. But above all, I do not believe we can

take decisions in our national interest we are part of the European

of the European Union, when we have given up so much

How dangerous a moment will this be for the Conservative Party? For the

next few months, from top to bottom, there will be figures publicly

disagreeing with each other over these fundamental ideas.

He has worked immensely hard to deliver change in our relationship

with the European Union. The debate is whether that change was

sufficient to enable us to state, or whether people will decide to go.

The campaign to stay will have the backing of most Tory, Lib Dem,

Labour and SNP MPs, even if for different reasons.

Our position is simple, that we want to be in

but with workers' protection, environmental protection

across Europe. That is the agenda Cameron should have followed.

Number Ten hopes a new and improved

relationship with the EU can win you over, but the referendum will ask

But how do those new terms compare with his original goals, and are

they, as the critics say, a poor result for the UK?

When David Cameron set out to reform Britain's relationship

with the European Union, his ambition was clear.

That is why we need fundamental, far-reaching change.

So has he got it? Well, one aim was to

deter EU migration by curbing their benefits. The Tory manifesto

promised that if an EU migrant's child is living abroad,

they should receive no child benefit. The deal

says that EU migrants will just receive less child benefit.

Immediately if they are new arrivals,

in four years if they are already here.

The manifesto also promised that EU migrants who want to claim tax

credits must live here and contribute to our country for a

minimum of four years. The deal says

instead that EU migrants will have their tax credits phased

in gradually over four years, a

be able to impose only for the next seven years. The Prime Minister also

from being sucked into deeper political union.

I am asking European leaders for a clear, legally binding and

irreversible agreement to end Britain's obligation. So it's time

to give these national parliaments a greater say over EU lawmaking.

Well, the deal does indeed say the UK

will not be committed to further political integration, and it does

give more power to national parliaments to block new EU laws.

protect the economy from financial decisions made by

I am asking European leaders to agree clear and binding

principles that protect Britain and other non-euro countries, and

a safeguard mechanism to ensure that those principles are respected

The deal bans any discrimination against non-euro

countries, and gives to the UK the right to challenge, but not veto

Eurozone decisions they oppose, a change that will be written into EU

law in the future. So this deal does introduce a deterrent against

migration and safeguards from the Eurozone and a check on further

political integration. But it doesn't restrict the free movement

of labour around Europe, it doesn't change EU employment law, it doesn't

reform farm payments, all of which the Prime Minister has promised in

So this deal is, by definition, a compromise.

The question now is whether it is good

in the EU, or so minimal that persuades them to vote to leave.

As you would expect, lots of reaction today both to the content

of the deal and the announcement Prime Minister made in Downing

Street earlier today. Laura Kuenssberg is with me

in Downing Street. We'll talk to her in a moment,

but first to Brussels and our Europe I sensed a response not just after

the deal was done, but the Prime Minister's words on the way he has

shaped this debate. What have they been saying? At the summit itself,

the couple of prime ministers we spoke to said that David Cameron

played a blinder when it came to negotiations. They said he was not

the one having to give way in the talks. In the lead up to the summit,

he travelled all around Europe, trying to woo the other 27 EU

leaders. He needed their unanimous support yesterday to get his deal

past. But as soon as it was passed, that tone changed. He took to the

podium at a press Conference here in

Brussels, very much the British Prime Minister, about to call what

could be a very divisive referendum on EU membership. I don't love

Brussels, he said, I love Britain. When it comes to Europe, he said I

take hard-headed decisions in our national interest. For those

Europeans who spent a long time trying to help the Prime Minister

get his deal, they bristled at his tone, but they are realists. They

took a decision in their national interest that with the refugee

crisis, with an unpredictable Russia at the doorsteps of the European

Union, with the terror threat, that the EU is better with Britain

inside. They hope that by giving David Cameron his deal, they might

help persuade the people of the UK to vote yes in a referendum. The

idea of safer together is something you can also expect to hear from the

Prime Minister in the lead up to the referendum, but at the same time,

his deal threatens to cause rifts inside Europe. What happens if the

Poles, the Portuguese and Spaniards now want their deal as well. Europe

a la carte? The fear is that that could lead to disintegration and

perhaps the eventual break-up of the European Union. Laura is with me in

Downing Street. Lots of things have been confirmed - the date obviously,

but other things have not been confirmed. Over the next four

months, lots of things are difficult to predict. We don't know how it

will exactly transpired, but there are two pressing things we are not

sure of all stop the first is the question of whether that gang of six

ministers this morning will become a gang of seven. The biggest question

is over whether Boris Johnson, the London Mayor, will emerge on the

side of people who want to leave the European Union. That does seem very

likely at this stage, but he is not going to confirm that today. He is

the kind of unusual politician who can cut through much of the

machinations of Westminster and appeal directly to the public. Some

people love him, some despise him, but he always makes an impact. The

second thing that we don't know the details of yet is something that

David Cameron is expecting to put forward that would show that British

law could not be overturned by European law. For many years, that

has been a real concern of people who want is to be out of the

European Union, the idea that European judges far from here can

chat out things that British governments decide they want to do.

In the coming days, the Prime Minister will come up with some kind

of deal on that sovereignty question, and we do not know exactly

how that will look. For some Eurosceptics, that could make the

difference for people wavering. And we will expect the Prime Minister to

campaign heavily on that side of things in the months to come. But as

you say, the broad shapes of the arguments are now emerging clearly.

The very big question is what the public will make of it.

Let's discuss some of those issues now.

In a moment I'll talk to Sir Malcolm Rifkind,

the former Conservative Foreign Secretary

who's campaigning to stay in - but first, Chris Grayling,

who sits in the cabinet as leader of the House of Commons,

Mr Grayling, are you going to be campaigning on the nuts and bolts of

the deal that the Prime Minister has negotiated, or are you already

negotiating on a broader question? I am not going to be attacking the

Prime Minister on what he has achieved. He has worked immensely

hard and has brought home some changes to our relationship with the

European Union. The question is whether the deal on the table

restores the national sovereignty that I want to restore to the UK. I

think the European Union holds us back. I think we cannot take

decisions in our national interest that we should be able to take, like

limiting the number of people who can live and work here, forging

agreements with emerging economies around the world and even saving the

10th billion pounds a year subscription we send to Brussels and

spending it on the health service and reducing the deficit. I am not

going to criticise the Prime Minister, who has worked hard, but

he has not changed my view that Britain would be better off outside

the European Union. And did you and other colleagues have the third

unity to make those points around the table this morning? We had a

very constructive discussion. Each one of us had the chance to set out

our views. I don't think there were any great secrets because our

sentiments were well-known in most cases, but it a good-natured meeting

and I think a number of people said towards the end of the meeting that

they hoped the tone of that meeting could be reflected in the campaign

ahead. We as ministers and members of the Conservative Party wants to

have a grown-up constructive discussion about these issues. We

are all going to argue for what we believe in. We are all going to try

and win the argument, but it is also beholden upon us as members of this

country's government to be decent to each other. And are you expecting

Boris Johnson to be arguing on your site? It would be great if he did,

but Boris is Boris. He will no doubt do things in his own inimitable

fashion. I don't yet know what he will do. Obviously, I hope he will

be with the league campaign. We will have to see. -- I hope he will be

with the leaves campaign. I thought you would say that!

Your thoughts on what the Prime Minister had to say? Let me tell you

where I am coming from, a I am a moderate Eurosceptic. I have been

against the European army and a United States of Europe. What I have

been waiting to see was whether as a result of these negotiations,

whether we could be confident that Britain would continue to get all

the benefits of the single market on trade, on financial services and a

range of issues of that kind that create an enormous number of jobs,

but at the same time, noting sucked in to be unable to be sucked in

against our will into more European integration that wouldn't suit us. I

am confident that we have that guarantee because the redefinition

of what ever closer union means, saying explicitly for the first time

in the history of the European Union, that this does not apply to

the United Kingdom, that's what I was waiting to see and I am

delighted we have got it. It's intriguing that we are being told by

Laura that we are expecting something more from David Cameron

and the Government on this question of sovereignty. We are being told

that reliably, and if that's the case it does suggest that the deal

as done yesterday hasn't gone far enough. That's not quite right. The

issue that I have been talking about up until now has been about new

proposals coming from the European Commission, or other governments for

more integration, creation of a European army or harmonised taxation

or things of that kind. What's being considered by the Government at the

moment, I don't know the details, is whether if the European Court of

justice or if some other definition of the existing law is interpreted

in a way that's hostile to British interests, and maybe against our

basic constitutional rights, there should be some safeguard against

that. That's an important point but a separate point.

Do you expect someone like Boris Johnson to be campaigning on your

side or not? I haven't the to the faintest combrd. I am not clear why

it's taking him so long to make up his mind. If it really does depend

on what David Cameron's going to say over the next 48 hours, on what we

have just been discussing, for example, then that's one thing. We

know he has had private conversations with the Prime

Minister. If he is going to say, well, whatever the Prime Minister's

come up with it's not enough and he is going to campaign against, well,

I am puzzled as to why he couldn't have said that today, yesterday,

last week or the week before. This may have more to do with theatre

than with substance. He may well be listening, sir

Malcolm, thank you very much. He won't like it, if he is!

Maybe not. Thank you very much for joining us.

Lp Nick Higham has been talking

to voters in Camberley in Surrey, where the local MP is Michael Gove,

the Justice Secretary, The wind and rain kept

many of the shoppers indoors, a chance to ask the stall holders

what they think of Europe and which way they'll

vote in the referendum. Are you going to vote

to stay in or go out? There's too much red tape,

it's crippling our country, We're being ruled by

unelected people in Brussels I think we have lost a lot

of our independence but then Do you think you would have to pay

more for imported olives if we left? Certainly people like the Greeks

would probably charge us This is Michael Gove's constituency,

overwhelmingly Conservative. But just as the Cabinet

is divided over Europe, I don't think the way

things are in Europe - Europe's getting too big and I think

we should be better off trading with the rest of the world,

rather than the rest of Europe. As Europe's growing,

it's just getting too big. Jobs will benefit

from staying in Europe. Come in out of the rain

and you discover that the main shopping centre

is busy and bustling. You would expect that,

this is a wealthy part of the world. The other thing you discover is that

even though the local MP has come down firmly on one side

of the argument, many people around here are still undecided

about which way to vote I'm going to listen to all

the arguments, actually. I thought I would be staying in,

but I am just going to listen top all the arguments before

making a decision. I am going to vote

but I am undecided. I need to know about the benefits

of being in or out. Haven't decided, I don't know enough

at the moment to make a decision. Despite David Cameron's deal

in Brussels, it seems many around A flavour there of the opinions in

Camberley. Ben Page is chief executive of the

pollsters IPSOS MORI. There was an interesting

contribution there about I want to know more before I can make up my

mind. What are issues people according to your research are going

to focus on sharply in the months ahead? Immigration and the economy

and, of course, the effect on the money in your pocket and your job.

35% of people say they could still change their minds. So, it could go

either way quite frankly. But ultimately, it is about immigration.

Has the Prime Minister got enough? Before he announced this most

thought he wouldn't. I suspect their views aren't really Going Concern to

change. Ultimately, I think the economy is a magnetic stone in this

and that for many people may end up being the deciding factor.

We have spent a lot of time looking at the detail of the deal that the

Prime Minister negotiated which was announced last night. To what extent

will the detail of that deal change people's minds or influence them or

are people already in a position where they're pretty certain? Most

people say they've made up their minds and I don't think the detail

of the deal is going to be something that everybody's going to be pouring

over word by word. You have to remember that only 16% of the

British public, just last week, said this was the biggest issue facing

the country. So it's not necessarily capturing everybody's imagination.

Even back in 1975 when we last had a referendum only 65% of people voted,

which was well below the average turnout in general elections at that

time. So, I think it's going to be a real challenge to engage the whole

population in this. Ben, interesting to talk to you, thank you very much.

And just a reminder that you can find detail,

background and analysis about the referendum

and all the issues involved on our website at bbc.co.uk/news.

There are lots of valuable analysis and blogs by people all on that site

for you. In Scotland, Wales

and Northern Ireland, the devolved administrations

have their own perspectives I'll be talking to our

correspondents in Belfast and Cardiff in a moment,

but first to Edinburgh, where the Scottish

government says it remains committed to making the case for Britain

remaining in the European Union. Our Scotland editor

Sarah Smith has the latest. Your sense of how this is likely to

develop, Sarah? Well, in Scotland, the SNP are obviously by far the

dominant party in Scottish politics and they say they will vigorously

campaign to remain in the European Union and most of the other

political parties agree with them, most senior politicians in Scotland

will be campaigning to stay in. The polls suggest at the moment, at

least, that a lot of Scottish voters agree with them, around 60% in most

polls say they'll opt to stay in. With a sense that Scotland is really

the most enthusiastic part of Britain when it comes to EU

membership. You won't hear that many voices here campaigning to leave.

That has created a situation where the First Minister says it would be

unfair if Scotland were to be forced out of the EU if a majority of Scots

vote to stay in, but the UK votes to leave, that Scotland should not be

propelled outside the European Union against its will. In those

circumstances, she says, it may be necessary to have a second

referendum on Scottish independence. One that in those circumstances the

nationalists might be more likely to win. Now, a lot of ifs in that, of

course and Scottish voters may change their minds about the EU

during the course of this campaign. But as it looks now, they certainly

seem keen on staying in. Thank you very much.

What about Wales? In Wales, there's also concern

the referendum could overshadow Your perspective on that and how you

Wales correspondent. Your perspective on that and how you

think the state of public opinion in Wales is showing right now? Well,

the latest poll from last week suggests that actually those who

want to leave are ahead in this race. For two years or so they've

been behind but the latest poll gives them a lead of about 8%. Now,

big issues here, not least the crossover between the Welsh Assembly

elections and that referendum. Carwyn Jones was one of the First

Ministers who wrote to David Cameron saying he doesn't want to happen. He

will be leading the campaign here in Wales, I guess already he is making

arguments about the cash, the fact that Wales is somewhere that has a

net benefit, it gets more money back from Europe than it puts in. He

argues that some 200,000 jobs depend on European trade. However, the

other camp already have arguments back. They say, well, what is Europe

doing, for example, about steel? Hundreds of steel jobs under threat

here in Wales. What is the EU doing about that? The party to watch in

the Welsh elections is Ukip, no seats at the moment here, some

people already projecting eight or nine seats for them in May. Will the

crossover in the two campaigns actually boost those numbers even

further? Watch and see. Interesting, thank you very much.

In Northern Ireland, the main parties in the government

take different positions on whether the UK should remain

Chris Buckler is our Ireland correspondent.

Your perspective on how the parties are lining up there? Yes, it's worth

remembering as well that Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK

to have a land border with another country in Europe. There are people

wondering what would happen in the case of a vote it leave. Would it

mean a return of checkpoints or controls along the border? People

have used to open roads. However, saying that the DUP, the biggest

party in Northern Ireland, it has always been sceptical about Europe

and today it urged people to vote to leave. That's going to put them into

conflict with the nationalist parties at Stormont, including the

biggest partner in Government, Sinn Fein. They have always been

pro-Europe. This referendum will be watched from the south, as well. The

Irish Prime Minister has already voted in his view, he feels that

Britain should vote to stay. It's very important to him because of the

big trading links between the countries.

Many thanks, Chris. Thank you to Hywel and Sarah before that.

It's been a fast-moving 24 hours, from the sudden conclusion

of negotiations in Brussels last night

to the Prime Minister's announcement today

and the divided response of Cabinet Ministers.

We'll talk to Laura Kuenssberg again in a moment.

a reminder of the main events of the past 24 hours.

Within the last hour, I've negotiated a deal to give

the United Kingdom special status inside the European Union.

I believe that it is enough for me to recommend that the United Kingdom

Foreign Secretary, why have you not convinced your colleagues?

We are approaching one of the biggest

decisions this country will face in our lifetimes.

I'm voting to stay in the European Union.

This is all about the Tory party, it's not about this country.

I am ringing you from the Vote Leave campaign.

the question is whether it was good enough for everyone to think

and one word clearly sings out to me, and that is failure.

He has got a better deal, but I'm not convinced.

People who talk about us going out don't think about the cost of jobs.

The choice goes to the heart

of the kind of country we want to be,

and the future that we want for our children.

Our political editor Laura Kuenssberg is with me

Really today has underlined there is a massive decision ahead of us.

Indeed there is. It's a decision for all of us. Two extraordinary things

now. We have a party in Government, publicly divided with permission. Of

course, normally Governments have to try to stick together. They all have

to tow the line to get through the week. That's now not going on with

people in charge behind that door. They're split and publicly so. But

the other extraordinary thing is that all of us have a chance to

choose to leave one of the institutions that has had

significant control over the laws in this country and really, therefore,

all of our lives for decades now. It is a huge decision. It will be about

the economy. It will be about security. But it will also be about

people's instinct and their identity. An unpredictable campaign

lies ahead and it won't be dull. Thank you very much.

And that's it for this BBC News Special from Downing Street

that the referendum on Britain's future in the European Union

will be held in four months' time on 23rd June.

It will be the first time for over 40 years that British voters

will be consulted about the UK's place in Europe.

We'll be back with the latest at 10.15 tonight on BBC One,

Oh, you're making your teddy bear. Were you not frightened?