30/09/2016 BBC News Special


30/09/2016

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Stephen Sackur speaks exclusively to the Russian Foreign

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A very warm welcome to this BBC News special, with me Stephen Sackur. It

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is one year since Vladimir Putin launched Russia's military campaign

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in Syria, and intervention which in its size and scope, took the world

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by surprise. The initial aim was to turn the tide of a conflict which

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was running against's strategic ally, President Bashar al-Assad.

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That has been achieved. The Syrian government backed by Russian air

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power is now on the offensive, most notably in a continued ferocious

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assault on the rebel held areas of Aleppo. So what is Russia's endgame

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in Syria? I'm joined for an exclusive interview from Moscow, by

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Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. Foreign Minister I think we

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have to start with a situation on the granting Aleppo, for the last

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week or more we have seen most ferocious bombardment by Russian and

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Syrian warplanes. Doctors on the ground say that more than 400 people

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have been killed, the UN special envoy has talked about evidence of

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crimes that may have been committed, why are you doing this? Well I think

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to understand what is going on, you have to go a bit back into the

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history of how this started. The day is exactly one year since President

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Putin at the request of President Assad agreed to send our air force,

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to help fight terrorists in Syria. And from the very beginning, we

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propose to the American led coalition to start coordination, of

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these operations, and to distinguish, to separate actually

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the opposition which was cooperating with the coalition, led by the

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United States, from al-Nusra, Isil and other groups. The Americans, as

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you know, it took them I think several months, a couple of months

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at least, until in December, we created the International Syria

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support group where they pledged solemnly to take as a priority and

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obligation to separate the opposition from Nusra. They still

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despite many repeated promises, they are still not able or not willing to

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do this. And, we have more and more reasons to believe, that from the

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very beginning, the plan was to spare Nusra, and keep it just in

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case, for plan B or for stage two, when it would be time to change the

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regime. I can only recall speaking of Aleppo, that in August this year,

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the opposition were more than 50%, were Nusra, as confirmed by the

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United Nations. Has taken the southern western suburb of Aleppo,

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cutting off 1.5 million people. And basically organising a siege,

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preventing them from getting any supplies by the most easy and

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available route. And there was no noise, no hysterical statement. The

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Western people as far as I do stand around the show, they thought that

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this would be the prelude, to Aleppo being taken by the opposition. Now

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the situation is different, and we hear all of these noises. If I may,

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I do stand what you are saying Foreign Minister but I need to ask

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you about the situation the ground -- I do understand what you are

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saying. We have seen evidence of civilians being killed, in their own

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basements, bunkers, by your Russian-made bunker busting bombs.

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The doctors have told us of the scale of the casualties, why is

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Russia continuing with this bombardment when you know what you

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are doing to the civilian population? Well I am coming to it

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actually, I am getting to it. We take all necessary precautions not

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to hit civilians. The term collateral damage was invented not

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by us, you know by whom. And we are taking as I said, the most tricked

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precautions to make sure that we don't hit civilians by any chance.

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If this happens, well we are very sorry but we need to investigate

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each and every accusation. So far we have not been given any meaningful

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proof of what is being said about the convoy, which was bombed or

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attacked on the 19th of September, and which we have good reasons to

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believe was a provocation. We can talk about the convoy in a minute,

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but if you want evidence of your forces are doing on the ground in

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Aleppo, I can provide some. We have seen one of your unexploded bunker

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busting bombs, actually filmed on the ground in Aleppo, so we know

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that you are deploying those weapons. We also have seen clear

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evidence of an century phosphorus munitions, being used. Which again

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come from Russia. Cluster bombs as well, these are Russian munitions,

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which violate laws of warfare. Well, we are not using any munition which

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is prohibited by the United Nations, I can assure you. About the

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situation in Aleppo, the entire problem derives from the fact that

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United States and the coalition led by the knighted States, cannot and

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basically refuses to separate the opposition, from Nusra, and the

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terrorist groups that join Nusra. Instead of separation we see more

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and more groups coming into alliance with Nusra, and there whenever we

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hit Nusra we are told that we shouldn't do this because there are

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good people next to it all in the middle Nusra's position. Then this

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is a vicious circle, we cannot fight terrorists unless we all agree that

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those who want to be part of the solution and the cessation of

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hostilities, get out from the positions occupied by them. This is

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as simple as that, but from the beginning of the US operation in

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Syria, they started by very reluctantly hitting Isil, and they

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only went after Isil in a real way, after we started our operation, as

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for Nusra, they never touched Nusra anywhere in Syria, I raised this

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problem with John Kerry every time we to look and we talk basically

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every day. And today would be another one as far as I understand,

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at the request of Washington. And he keeps promising that as soon as we

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stop flying, as soon as Assad stops flying, they will start separating

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or thinking about separation. By the way, we had many pauses, many

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humanitarian pauses during this year, 48 hours, 72 hours at the

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request of the United Nations. Every time, these have been used by Nusra

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to get from abroad more fighters, more munitions and more weapons, so

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there must be some first step. There must be some first step and we need

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to get our priorities right. Humanitarian things are very

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important and we are doing everything now, together with the

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Syrian government, we make sure, to help the United Nations to get

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weekly things in to Aleppo. It is the Nusra controlled people in

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eastern Aleppo who refuse to do this until there is total quiet because

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they run short of the mission and the weapons and they need resupply.

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It is as simple as it is. You talk about your contacts with the

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Americans, you will know better than me that over the last 12 or so

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hours, the message from Washington has been simple, unless you stop the

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bombing in Aleppo now, then the Americans say that they will end all

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diplomatic contact with you, they will end all talk of military

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coordination and they will look "At all other options". Are you prepared

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to end the bombing or not? Well they also said that Russia would be

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losing aeroplanes, soldiers and Russian cities would be attacked. It

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was unacceptable threats, and maybe this was a signal that those who

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want to do this can start. It is absolutely unacceptable, and

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deplorable I would say. As for global operation, there was never

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cooperation between the two military 's of Russia and the United States

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except 40 conviction. What we did have, whilst discussions and

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negotiations -- except for deconfliction. We did begin

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discussions sometimes in March, which the Americans did not want to

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make public. Every time we said let's make it public, after we had

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negotiated another part of it, another part John Kerry came to

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Moscow in July, and we finalised a very good document. By the way, the

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document started with a pledge to separate the opposition, the healthy

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opposition so to say, the moderate is from Nusra. And it was never

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done, and they were always shy, to make the documents public.

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Eventually when we finalised the package of five documents on the 9th

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of September, we decided that this was the time, you know to start in

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fermenting them. And D-Day was announced on the of September. The

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cessation of hostilities held for a couple of days, the Syrian

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government, did start pulling back its forces from the castello, and

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the opposition never did, instead they started firing, at the forces

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on the castello Road. The Syrian forces established its checkpoint on

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the castello, the opposition was supposed to establish its own, they

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never did, on the castello Road. Now the castello Road cannot be used

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because the opposition threatens to fire at any humanitarian convoy

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using the castello Road. This is a fact. Let me just up you there, it

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is very interesting. You did stop me there. Yes and thank you for

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answering the questions. You said that the American struck at the

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military post, and it is right, the evidence is clear, and imagine say

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it was a mistake and they apologise for the loss of life in that

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particular incident. They accuse you as do many international observers

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and indeed UN officials, of being responsible for an air strike on the

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aid convoy. You have never admitted doing it despite the clear evidence

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that it involved the Russian military, now is your opportunity to

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apologise for that. Well, if as you say there is clear evidence that

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this was the job of the Russian military I would like to see this

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evidence. I know that the United Nations, in particular on our

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resistance, announced that they will start an investigation and we will

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be very sorry watching how it goes. I can tell you only one thing and

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this is the fact known by the United Nations. When the convoy was agreed,

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the opposition in control of eastern Aleppo told the United Nations that

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the convoy should not be launched, a cause they said that they had

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information, that the government would attack it. The United Nations

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in spite of the serious warning said that it doesn't matter whether

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anybody plans to attack us or not, we are sending the convoy. And to

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understand, what might have happened, we have to go back to

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August the 26th when there was another meeting between John Kerry

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and myself in Geneva. On that very day, Stefan dimmest is said that the

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UN had Terry and convoy was ready to leave from Turkey to Aleppo via the

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castello Road, he said why did we announce it, it will be so historic.

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On that very day, before the convoy left, the Aleppo opposition said

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that they would hit this convoy, they would not allow this to get

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into Aleppo via the castello Road. Then the United Nations basically

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blinked, they said OK maybe we will talk to them persuade them to change

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their mind. Let us wait for a couple of days. We waited for a couple of

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days and then two weeks and then it was mid-September, the opposition

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control of eastern Aleppo never allowed this convoy in. So now when

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the 19th of September convoy was about to be launched, the same

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opposition said that they had information that the government

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might attack it. Don't you think that this looks fishy? I tell you

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what looks fishy, is the fact that your aerial surveillance drones were

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monitoring that convoy, and you had two SU 24 warplanes above it but let

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us not spend it too long discussing that incident, an investigation is

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ongoing. Let us have a look at a bigger picture, Samantha for Powell,

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the UN Ambassador to the UN, recently said, that what Russia is

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doing "Is not counterterrorism, it is barbarism". How toxic would you

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say relations between Washington and Moscow are today? I think she is a

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bit aggressive, even for the representative of the United States.

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We believe it is absolutely unacceptable to use this language.

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We have said what we think about this already. I did want to come

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back to this and I don't want to discuss the manners of our American

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colleagues. I believe that everyone who is aware of how they work know

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about those manners. I prefer to concentrate on the facts and not

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hysterical statements when people lose control of events and of

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themselves. Do you think that the Americans have lost control both of

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themselves and of events? Well I think that, if they do not present

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any evidence to the contrary, they either are driven by Nusra, or they

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tacitly support this terrorist organisation. And you know, if you

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take the history, during the Reagan administration, Al-Qaeda was born

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because the United States was supporting mujahedin movement in

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Afghanistan. Against the stove the union. During George Bush Junior,

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Isil was born after they invaded Iraq and in May 2003 they dismantled

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any structure with the Sunni population, beard army and security

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and police. -- be it. I'm afraid this particular administration of

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the latter states might make history, by giving rise to and

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supporting Nusra. Get me give you quickfire questions and answer. --

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let me. He's all talk of a meaningful ceasefire in Syria over

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Ashton Mark is that prospect at an end? It is not over, when we met in

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New York we said we are ready to implement the document which we

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agreed in full provided this time, we don't get any pretexts to delay

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the separation. Let us sit down, let us have the map, and let the

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American and Russian officers exchange information and to clearly

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indicate on that map where Nusra are. And then we

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will start because we don't want to be cheated again and again. In March

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this year President Putin announced that they would be a pull-back of

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Russian forces from Syria which would begin in the spring. Here we

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are at the end of September, one year into your military operations,

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and far from a pull-back, you are being drawn ever more deeply into

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the Syria conflict, your strategy hasn't worked, has it? No, I believe

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that, you are making it a bit wrong. What he did say, that we would be

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partially withdrawing our air force from there, he made a caveat that if

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the situation requires, we would always be able to build back the

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force in Syria. The bottom line is that it looks too many people and

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this is what the Americans are saying but others too, that you

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can't actually rain in President Assad and that you in the Foreign

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Ministry in Moscow are unhappy about some of the things that are

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happening particularly in Aleppo but actually President Assad is not

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listening to you? You know, my job is not about being happy or unhappy,

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I can only give you facts. Starting with the first document in Syria,

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the Geneva communique of June 2012, we made all necessary efforts to

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make sure that the government cooperates. They divorced these

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documents a couple days after it was adopted. The opposition never did,

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and we proposed to have an endorsement on the Security Council

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and they refused, and only one year and a couple of months later, the

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opposition reluctantly said that they are ready to support this

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document provided that President Assad goes, which was not the

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precondition contained in that paper. Then each and every time

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Russia and the United States or international Syria support group

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but you some decisions, they say they are only going to cooperate if

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President Assad goes first. The latest arrangements by Ahsan United

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States were rejected by the so-called high negotiating

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committee, and its leader, the former Syrian Prime Minister who

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defected in 2011 I think in the summer, he publicly stated in an

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interview in a newspaper if I'm not wrong, he cannot end this, they

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cannot accept the statement that Nusra is a terrorist organisation.

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They have links with Kylie do, and Nusra must be made respectable

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member of the Palestinian process. I asked John Kerry if he accepts this

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and he said no, and I asked why he doesn't say this publicly and I'm

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still waiting. Would you have told me a great deal about your worries

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about the Nusra front. President Assad says that he will continue his

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military operations until key has recovered every inch of Syrian

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territory, are you going to offer him full military support until he

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has covered every inch of Syrian territory -- recovered? The

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cessation of hostilities never, ever provided for ceasing any activities,

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for Nusra and Isil and this is what we are guided by. You haven't

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answered my question. The do you believe that Assad can recover every

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inch, and Willie provide support until he does so? No, we believe

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that the Russia- America deal must be put into effect, for this the

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only thing that is necessary is to separate the opposition from Nusra,

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if it is supported by the United States not on paper but in real

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life, and then B will insist on immediate cessation of hostilities.

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Except for Nusra of course. I want to a couple of other issues. On

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sanctions, because of your response to the downing of MH 17, the

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prosecutors made it quite clear, that the evidence points to a

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Russian missile from Russia into eastern Ukraine, shooting down that

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Malaysian airline, and then the missile torture returning to Russia,

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because of your response to that it is quite plain that international

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sanctions on your country will not be lifted any time soon. How is

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Russia going to continue to live with these sanctions? Well we

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already explained what we think about this report, of the Dutch

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whatever it is called, Council, by the way, the investigation group

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which was created in July 2014, did not invite Malaysia, until the end

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of that year. It was very strange, and nobody explain to us why this

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was the case. Another strange thing in addition to what was said by our

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aviation authorities, and the producer of this rocket launcher,

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the Security Council adopted a resolution in July 2014, which among

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other things, requested, regular reports from the Security Council

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about the cost of this investigation. There was no single

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report to the security Council and I wonder why? As for the technical

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details and the evidence that you referred to, the evidence is based

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on video images, and photo images from social networks. And from the

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evidence received from unnamed witnesses. And the report itself,

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and the presenter of the report said that they need to continue the

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investigation. We submitted huge material to them, and we would be

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very much hopeful that they will look eventually into this material.

:22:58.:23:06.

You are not contemplating any kind of apology? Any kind of apology for

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what? For the fact that the evidence points clearly to a Russian-made

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missile from Russia going back to Russia being used to kill 298 people

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on board that plane? Well first, even from the point of view of the

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logic of the investigating committee, the investigation is not

:23:29.:23:31.

over. They said there 100 names but none of them is a suspect or a

:23:32.:23:36.

witness even. So even from this point of view, let us not jump to

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conclusions but what I can tell you, is that information that we amassed,

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including the results of the tests, conducted by the producer of this

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rocket launcher, was given to the investigators and Ukrainian data and

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American data was never given and made public. Foreign Minister Sergei

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Lavrov we had to leave you there, thank you very much for joining me

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on the BBC world News special. Our exclusive interview with the Russian

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Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, thank you very much for watching.

:24:14.:24:24.

Today the weather has been a little mixed on the weather front, overall

:24:25.:24:30.

not too bad, there has been sunshine around but also some heavy showers

:24:31.:24:35.

lurking on the horizon is, those pictures coming from our weather

:24:36.:24:37.

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