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Stephen Sackur speaks exclusively to the Russian Foreign | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
A very warm welcome to this BBC News special, with me Stephen Sackur. It | :00:00. | :00:28. | |
is one year since Vladimir Putin launched Russia's military campaign | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
in Syria, and intervention which in its size and scope, took the world | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
by surprise. The initial aim was to turn the tide of a conflict which | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
was running against's strategic ally, President Bashar al-Assad. | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
That has been achieved. The Syrian government backed by Russian air | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
power is now on the offensive, most notably in a continued ferocious | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
assault on the rebel held areas of Aleppo. So what is Russia's endgame | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
in Syria? I'm joined for an exclusive interview from Moscow, by | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. Foreign Minister I think we | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
have to start with a situation on the granting Aleppo, for the last | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
week or more we have seen most ferocious bombardment by Russian and | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
Syrian warplanes. Doctors on the ground say that more than 400 people | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
have been killed, the UN special envoy has talked about evidence of | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
crimes that may have been committed, why are you doing this? Well I think | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
to understand what is going on, you have to go a bit back into the | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
history of how this started. The day is exactly one year since President | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Putin at the request of President Assad agreed to send our air force, | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
to help fight terrorists in Syria. And from the very beginning, we | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
propose to the American led coalition to start coordination, of | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
these operations, and to distinguish, to separate actually | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
the opposition which was cooperating with the coalition, led by the | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
United States, from al-Nusra, Isil and other groups. The Americans, as | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
you know, it took them I think several months, a couple of months | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
at least, until in December, we created the International Syria | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
support group where they pledged solemnly to take as a priority and | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
obligation to separate the opposition from Nusra. They still | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
despite many repeated promises, they are still not able or not willing to | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
do this. And, we have more and more reasons to believe, that from the | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
very beginning, the plan was to spare Nusra, and keep it just in | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
case, for plan B or for stage two, when it would be time to change the | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
regime. I can only recall speaking of Aleppo, that in August this year, | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
the opposition were more than 50%, were Nusra, as confirmed by the | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
United Nations. Has taken the southern western suburb of Aleppo, | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
cutting off 1.5 million people. And basically organising a siege, | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
preventing them from getting any supplies by the most easy and | :03:30. | :03:39. | |
available route. And there was no noise, no hysterical statement. The | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
Western people as far as I do stand around the show, they thought that | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
this would be the prelude, to Aleppo being taken by the opposition. Now | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
the situation is different, and we hear all of these noises. If I may, | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
I do stand what you are saying Foreign Minister but I need to ask | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
you about the situation the ground -- I do understand what you are | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
saying. We have seen evidence of civilians being killed, in their own | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
basements, bunkers, by your Russian-made bunker busting bombs. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
The doctors have told us of the scale of the casualties, why is | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
Russia continuing with this bombardment when you know what you | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
are doing to the civilian population? Well I am coming to it | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
actually, I am getting to it. We take all necessary precautions not | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
to hit civilians. The term collateral damage was invented not | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
by us, you know by whom. And we are taking as I said, the most tricked | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
precautions to make sure that we don't hit civilians by any chance. | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
If this happens, well we are very sorry but we need to investigate | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
each and every accusation. So far we have not been given any meaningful | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
proof of what is being said about the convoy, which was bombed or | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
attacked on the 19th of September, and which we have good reasons to | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
believe was a provocation. We can talk about the convoy in a minute, | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
but if you want evidence of your forces are doing on the ground in | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
Aleppo, I can provide some. We have seen one of your unexploded bunker | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
busting bombs, actually filmed on the ground in Aleppo, so we know | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
that you are deploying those weapons. We also have seen clear | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
evidence of an century phosphorus munitions, being used. Which again | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
come from Russia. Cluster bombs as well, these are Russian munitions, | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
which violate laws of warfare. Well, we are not using any munition which | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
is prohibited by the United Nations, I can assure you. About the | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
situation in Aleppo, the entire problem derives from the fact that | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
United States and the coalition led by the knighted States, cannot and | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
basically refuses to separate the opposition, from Nusra, and the | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
terrorist groups that join Nusra. Instead of separation we see more | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
and more groups coming into alliance with Nusra, and there whenever we | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
hit Nusra we are told that we shouldn't do this because there are | :06:27. | :06:27. | |
good people next to it all in the middle Nusra's position. Then this | :06:28. | :06:43. | |
is a vicious circle, we cannot fight terrorists unless we all agree that | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
those who want to be part of the solution and the cessation of | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
hostilities, get out from the positions occupied by them. This is | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
as simple as that, but from the beginning of the US operation in | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
Syria, they started by very reluctantly hitting Isil, and they | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
only went after Isil in a real way, after we started our operation, as | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
for Nusra, they never touched Nusra anywhere in Syria, I raised this | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
problem with John Kerry every time we to look and we talk basically | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
every day. And today would be another one as far as I understand, | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
at the request of Washington. And he keeps promising that as soon as we | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
stop flying, as soon as Assad stops flying, they will start separating | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
or thinking about separation. By the way, we had many pauses, many | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
humanitarian pauses during this year, 48 hours, 72 hours at the | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
request of the United Nations. Every time, these have been used by Nusra | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
to get from abroad more fighters, more munitions and more weapons, so | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
there must be some first step. There must be some first step and we need | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
to get our priorities right. Humanitarian things are very | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
important and we are doing everything now, together with the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
Syrian government, we make sure, to help the United Nations to get | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
weekly things in to Aleppo. It is the Nusra controlled people in | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
eastern Aleppo who refuse to do this until there is total quiet because | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
they run short of the mission and the weapons and they need resupply. | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
It is as simple as it is. You talk about your contacts with the | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
Americans, you will know better than me that over the last 12 or so | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
hours, the message from Washington has been simple, unless you stop the | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
bombing in Aleppo now, then the Americans say that they will end all | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
diplomatic contact with you, they will end all talk of military | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
coordination and they will look "At all other options". Are you prepared | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
to end the bombing or not? Well they also said that Russia would be | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
losing aeroplanes, soldiers and Russian cities would be attacked. It | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
was unacceptable threats, and maybe this was a signal that those who | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
want to do this can start. It is absolutely unacceptable, and | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
deplorable I would say. As for global operation, there was never | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
cooperation between the two military 's of Russia and the United States | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
except 40 conviction. What we did have, whilst discussions and | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
negotiations -- except for deconfliction. We did begin | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
discussions sometimes in March, which the Americans did not want to | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
make public. Every time we said let's make it public, after we had | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
negotiated another part of it, another part John Kerry came to | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
Moscow in July, and we finalised a very good document. By the way, the | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
document started with a pledge to separate the opposition, the healthy | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
opposition so to say, the moderate is from Nusra. And it was never | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
done, and they were always shy, to make the documents public. | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
Eventually when we finalised the package of five documents on the 9th | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
of September, we decided that this was the time, you know to start in | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
fermenting them. And D-Day was announced on the of September. The | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
cessation of hostilities held for a couple of days, the Syrian | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
government, did start pulling back its forces from the castello, and | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
the opposition never did, instead they started firing, at the forces | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
on the castello Road. The Syrian forces established its checkpoint on | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
the castello, the opposition was supposed to establish its own, they | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
never did, on the castello Road. Now the castello Road cannot be used | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
because the opposition threatens to fire at any humanitarian convoy | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
using the castello Road. This is a fact. Let me just up you there, it | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
is very interesting. You did stop me there. Yes and thank you for | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
answering the questions. You said that the American struck at the | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
military post, and it is right, the evidence is clear, and imagine say | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
it was a mistake and they apologise for the loss of life in that | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
particular incident. They accuse you as do many international observers | :11:21. | :11:29. | |
and indeed UN officials, of being responsible for an air strike on the | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
aid convoy. You have never admitted doing it despite the clear evidence | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
that it involved the Russian military, now is your opportunity to | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
apologise for that. Well, if as you say there is clear evidence that | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
this was the job of the Russian military I would like to see this | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
evidence. I know that the United Nations, in particular on our | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
resistance, announced that they will start an investigation and we will | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
be very sorry watching how it goes. I can tell you only one thing and | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
this is the fact known by the United Nations. When the convoy was agreed, | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
the opposition in control of eastern Aleppo told the United Nations that | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
the convoy should not be launched, a cause they said that they had | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
information, that the government would attack it. The United Nations | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
in spite of the serious warning said that it doesn't matter whether | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
anybody plans to attack us or not, we are sending the convoy. And to | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
understand, what might have happened, we have to go back to | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
August the 26th when there was another meeting between John Kerry | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
and myself in Geneva. On that very day, Stefan dimmest is said that the | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
UN had Terry and convoy was ready to leave from Turkey to Aleppo via the | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
castello Road, he said why did we announce it, it will be so historic. | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
On that very day, before the convoy left, the Aleppo opposition said | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
that they would hit this convoy, they would not allow this to get | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
into Aleppo via the castello Road. Then the United Nations basically | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
blinked, they said OK maybe we will talk to them persuade them to change | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
their mind. Let us wait for a couple of days. We waited for a couple of | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
days and then two weeks and then it was mid-September, the opposition | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
control of eastern Aleppo never allowed this convoy in. So now when | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
the 19th of September convoy was about to be launched, the same | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
opposition said that they had information that the government | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
might attack it. Don't you think that this looks fishy? I tell you | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
what looks fishy, is the fact that your aerial surveillance drones were | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
monitoring that convoy, and you had two SU 24 warplanes above it but let | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
us not spend it too long discussing that incident, an investigation is | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
ongoing. Let us have a look at a bigger picture, Samantha for Powell, | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
the UN Ambassador to the UN, recently said, that what Russia is | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
doing "Is not counterterrorism, it is barbarism". How toxic would you | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
say relations between Washington and Moscow are today? I think she is a | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
bit aggressive, even for the representative of the United States. | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
We believe it is absolutely unacceptable to use this language. | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
We have said what we think about this already. I did want to come | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
back to this and I don't want to discuss the manners of our American | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
colleagues. I believe that everyone who is aware of how they work know | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
about those manners. I prefer to concentrate on the facts and not | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
hysterical statements when people lose control of events and of | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
themselves. Do you think that the Americans have lost control both of | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
themselves and of events? Well I think that, if they do not present | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
any evidence to the contrary, they either are driven by Nusra, or they | :15:15. | :15:23. | |
tacitly support this terrorist organisation. And you know, if you | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
take the history, during the Reagan administration, Al-Qaeda was born | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
because the United States was supporting mujahedin movement in | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
Afghanistan. Against the stove the union. During George Bush Junior, | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
Isil was born after they invaded Iraq and in May 2003 they dismantled | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
any structure with the Sunni population, beard army and security | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
and police. -- be it. I'm afraid this particular administration of | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
the latter states might make history, by giving rise to and | :16:01. | :16:11. | |
supporting Nusra. Get me give you quickfire questions and answer. -- | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
let me. He's all talk of a meaningful ceasefire in Syria over | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
Ashton Mark is that prospect at an end? It is not over, when we met in | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
New York we said we are ready to implement the document which we | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
agreed in full provided this time, we don't get any pretexts to delay | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
the separation. Let us sit down, let us have the map, and let the | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
American and Russian officers exchange information and to clearly | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
indicate on that map where Nusra are. And then we | :16:48. | :16:57. | |
will start because we don't want to be cheated again and again. In March | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
this year President Putin announced that they would be a pull-back of | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
Russian forces from Syria which would begin in the spring. Here we | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
are at the end of September, one year into your military operations, | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
and far from a pull-back, you are being drawn ever more deeply into | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
the Syria conflict, your strategy hasn't worked, has it? No, I believe | :17:20. | :17:28. | |
that, you are making it a bit wrong. What he did say, that we would be | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
partially withdrawing our air force from there, he made a caveat that if | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
the situation requires, we would always be able to build back the | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
force in Syria. The bottom line is that it looks too many people and | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
this is what the Americans are saying but others too, that you | :17:48. | :17:57. | |
can't actually rain in President Assad and that you in the Foreign | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
Ministry in Moscow are unhappy about some of the things that are | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
happening particularly in Aleppo but actually President Assad is not | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
listening to you? You know, my job is not about being happy or unhappy, | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
I can only give you facts. Starting with the first document in Syria, | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
the Geneva communique of June 2012, we made all necessary efforts to | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
make sure that the government cooperates. They divorced these | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
documents a couple days after it was adopted. The opposition never did, | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
and we proposed to have an endorsement on the Security Council | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
and they refused, and only one year and a couple of months later, the | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
opposition reluctantly said that they are ready to support this | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
document provided that President Assad goes, which was not the | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
precondition contained in that paper. Then each and every time | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
Russia and the United States or international Syria support group | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
but you some decisions, they say they are only going to cooperate if | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
President Assad goes first. The latest arrangements by Ahsan United | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
States were rejected by the so-called high negotiating | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
committee, and its leader, the former Syrian Prime Minister who | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
defected in 2011 I think in the summer, he publicly stated in an | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
interview in a newspaper if I'm not wrong, he cannot end this, they | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
cannot accept the statement that Nusra is a terrorist organisation. | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
They have links with Kylie do, and Nusra must be made respectable | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
member of the Palestinian process. I asked John Kerry if he accepts this | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
and he said no, and I asked why he doesn't say this publicly and I'm | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
still waiting. Would you have told me a great deal about your worries | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
about the Nusra front. President Assad says that he will continue his | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
military operations until key has recovered every inch of Syrian | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
territory, are you going to offer him full military support until he | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
has covered every inch of Syrian territory -- recovered? The | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
cessation of hostilities never, ever provided for ceasing any activities, | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
for Nusra and Isil and this is what we are guided by. You haven't | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
answered my question. The do you believe that Assad can recover every | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
inch, and Willie provide support until he does so? No, we believe | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
that the Russia- America deal must be put into effect, for this the | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
only thing that is necessary is to separate the opposition from Nusra, | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
if it is supported by the United States not on paper but in real | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
life, and then B will insist on immediate cessation of hostilities. | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
Except for Nusra of course. I want to a couple of other issues. On | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
sanctions, because of your response to the downing of MH 17, the | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
prosecutors made it quite clear, that the evidence points to a | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
Russian missile from Russia into eastern Ukraine, shooting down that | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
Malaysian airline, and then the missile torture returning to Russia, | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
because of your response to that it is quite plain that international | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
sanctions on your country will not be lifted any time soon. How is | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
Russia going to continue to live with these sanctions? Well we | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
already explained what we think about this report, of the Dutch | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
whatever it is called, Council, by the way, the investigation group | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
which was created in July 2014, did not invite Malaysia, until the end | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
of that year. It was very strange, and nobody explain to us why this | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
was the case. Another strange thing in addition to what was said by our | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
aviation authorities, and the producer of this rocket launcher, | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
the Security Council adopted a resolution in July 2014, which among | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
other things, requested, regular reports from the Security Council | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
about the cost of this investigation. There was no single | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
report to the security Council and I wonder why? As for the technical | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
details and the evidence that you referred to, the evidence is based | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
on video images, and photo images from social networks. And from the | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
evidence received from unnamed witnesses. And the report itself, | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
and the presenter of the report said that they need to continue the | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
investigation. We submitted huge material to them, and we would be | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
very much hopeful that they will look eventually into this material. | :22:58. | :23:06. | |
You are not contemplating any kind of apology? Any kind of apology for | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
what? For the fact that the evidence points clearly to a Russian-made | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
missile from Russia going back to Russia being used to kill 298 people | :23:16. | :23:24. | |
on board that plane? Well first, even from the point of view of the | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
logic of the investigating committee, the investigation is not | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
over. They said there 100 names but none of them is a suspect or a | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
witness even. So even from this point of view, let us not jump to | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
conclusions but what I can tell you, is that information that we amassed, | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
including the results of the tests, conducted by the producer of this | :23:48. | :23:57. | |
rocket launcher, was given to the investigators and Ukrainian data and | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
American data was never given and made public. Foreign Minister Sergei | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
Lavrov we had to leave you there, thank you very much for joining me | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
on the BBC world News special. Our exclusive interview with the Russian | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, thank you very much for watching. | :24:14. | :24:24. | |
Today the weather has been a little mixed on the weather front, overall | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
not too bad, there has been sunshine around but also some heavy showers | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
lurking on the horizon is, those pictures coming from our weather | :24:36. | :24:37. |